Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 26 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1200



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[OT] Re: Muses and County-class
Re: IG Liquidation
re: Non-ship Gearheadedness
Re: Mass combat system for Traveller
re: Off Topic:  last B5
BITS Website change
Re: Off Topic: last B5
Re: Off Topic: Last B5
DONT SPOIL B5 FOR THOSE OF US IN THE UK
Re: Jump-6 Courier network
Re: disabled ships
Re: B5
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: Mass combat system for Traveller
Re: Off Topic: last B5
[none]
Missile Sizes (Was Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11)
E-mail and the Traveller Setting
Re: Off Topic: last B5

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:07:51 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: Muses and County-class

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>Yup.  The Furies (Eumenidies) are for the "real bad" crimes
>(IIRC, it involved crimes against your blood):
>Patricide, Matricide, Fratricide, etc.

Ever seen the 'Sandman' Graphic novels? ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:12:01 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: IG Liquidation

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>BITS items on FLGS shelves?!
>
>Would that this could occur in the U.S. of A.
>
>;)

We're working on it. I hope to have news of developments soon.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:20:31 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Non-ship Gearheadedness

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>>Another thought:  do any of you gearheads design stuff other than ships?
>
>Yup. I've sent the draft of "101 Vehicles" off to BITS. The BITS marketing
>department (hi Dom) is still debating customer demand and release format,
>while BITS editorial staff (hi Dom) is checking my grammar.

LOL!

Anyone got a viable clone technology so half of me can concentrate on the
real world (tm)? Then I could get the Traveller stuff done faster... Either
that or I could win the lottery so I didn't have to design detergent
factories to afford to live and could work full time in this..

;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:27:10 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Mass combat system for Traveller

CPsyop@aol.com wrote:

>$30?!? Sounds like it's your gaming shop that fleecing you.  Full Thrust
>should retail for $18.  Same price for the expansion book More Thrust.

Chris - Rob's in Canada so that's $CAN.

$18 = 11 GBP approximately. Ouch!

There again, we pay pound for dollar prices here (eg an iMac costs the
equivalent of $1935 US dollars here).

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:28:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Off Topic:  last B5

Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:

>Is anybody as disappointed with the last episode--the last season for
>that matter--of B5?

DON'T SPOIL IT FOR THE REST OF US OUTSIDE THE USA.

Thanks ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:13:20 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS Website change

Please can you change any references to the BITS website on your own
homepages to:

http://www.bits.org.uk/

as the Innocom/Demon address will soon be superceded with a new ISP.

Regards,

Dominic Mooney
BITS webmaster-in-waiting ;-)


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:12:32 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic: last B5

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> >They set it up like it was going to be this massive, quasi-religious
> fight. > You know--the Shadows are Evil;  the Vorlons are Angels of Battle.
>
> But they're not!  The Vorlons and Shadow weren't good or evil, they were
> two obsessed races that had lost sight of their goals in favor of
> advocating their views.

I know.  That's what I'm bitching about.  If they were Law and Chaos all along,
then why all the quasi-religious stuff along the way.

Shadows were always demonized.  Lorian has goat eyes and looks like somebody's
interpretation of the devil.  The Vorlons look like religious creatures to all
who view them.

These are just three of the religious references that saturate the Shadow
storyline all through seasons 2,3, and 4.

Before you know a lot, they lead you to believe that this Shadow war thing was
going to be Armageddon--an all out blood bath between good and evil.

Then, oops, let's correct that.  It's really just law and chaos.

Then, oops again, lets have some stupid resolution to the conflict, with Sheridan
and Dlenn in some sort of stasis, their minds whisked away elsewhere to someplace
the Shadows and Vorlons can talk to them.  Let's slap the older races on the hand
for screwing with us all these millenniums and send them packing to the space
between the galaxies.

Corn-ball!

I waited 4 years for that?  All that build up?  All that fantastic TV, and that's
how they end it?

Jeeezzz.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:46:42 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic: Last B5

This is one of those topics that we're not going to all agree on.

For myself, I'm a Babylon 5 junkie. Heck, I even liked "Infection", as bad
as it was. And I _did_ like "Sleeping in Light"...a good ending, IMHO.

And I liked the Shadow War, and how it ended. I liked the fact that the
Shadows and Vorlons were neither good nor bad...that simply _were_.

Good stuff...I'm going to miss it. Thank god for reruns...

YMMV, of course.


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                        |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AIM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AIM: CMS AndyA    |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+   |
|       vi+ da+                                                       |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+     |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                            |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:53:37 -0000
From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
Subject: DONT SPOIL B5 FOR THOSE OF US IN THE UK

Sorry for shouting but can those of you who have seen the end of season 5
please remember we haven't seen the end of the 5th season yet!

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:57:02 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 Courier network

>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
...
>I was just telling somebody else that communication and regulatory fees go
>up with the square of the planets while taxation is directly proportional.
>Eventually, you'll hit a boundary where regulating a planet costs more than
>you can collect in taxes.  At that point it is economically unfeasible.  The
>collapses are examples of involuntary border reductions.

 To which I had replied:
  The problem is that in a 2-D environment (northern India, southern Africa,
the Solomani Autonomous Region) the defense budget decreases close to the
square of the area enclosed (with a relation to the similar capacity of nearby
empires if they overbuild), and the fleet will be vastly more expensive than
commo issues under most tech regimes (RW, Trav, not quite in FASA's Renegade
Legion, IIRC).

  This assumes that the interior doesn't need available defense strength at
the same establishment as the frontier, although given Trav Jump drives it
is strategically reasonable to store reserves even a couple of sectors back.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:57:07 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: disabled ships

>From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
...
>ObTrav: What happens to disabled ships in traveller? In our games we
>always played that disabled ships became non-combatants. The winning
>side would pick up survivors, and they were typically well treated.
>(Imperial/Zho anyway). A distress call made from a damaged ship
>would basically disqualify it from combat--using it as a lure would
>be a serious war crime.

  Given Trav weapons ranges (long) any realistic combat system will give
fire control results that make immobilized ships (at least) dead meat.
I'm not sure what else would count as a mission kill - depends on the
battlefield repair rules in use.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:57:25 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: B5

>Now it's time for you to go pick on the B5 posts.

  Is it worth picking on B5 - it's just a sad attempt to bask in the
reflected glory of the great work of Battlestar Galactica, after all.     :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:21:40 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

Date sent:      	Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:25:21 -0800 (PST)
From:           	Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>

>---Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> wrote:
>> So, since this has no relevance to Traveller, or to non-American
>subscribers of the TML, why is it here?

>Now it's time for you to go pick on the B5 posts.

At least B5 could provide the setting for a Traveller game

Andrew (who was also peved at the thanksgiving post)

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:45:14 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Mass combat system for Traveller

>>  Cheap in England. It's a six quid game that sells here for $30 - so
>>  someone is making a mucking huge profit!
>
>
>$30?!? Sounds like it's your gaming shop that fleecing you.  Full Thrust
>should retail for $18.  Same price for the expansion book More Thrust. 

I presume you mean $18US?  That works out to about $30 Canadian. However,
6 is only about $15 Canadian ($10US).

So, my thesis appears to stand - that the North American price is much
higher than the exchange rate would indicate.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:49:47 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Off Topic: last B5

On Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:03:23 -0800, you wrote:

>John Lansford wrote:
>
>> It never happened because it was an alternate history that Sinclair
>> avoided by taking B4 back in time to assist the Minbari in their
>> shadow war.
>
>Where'd you get that?  I have the whole B5 series, in its entirety, on tape, watched it
>more than once, and I didn't get that out of it.

It wasn't explicitly described, but since Sinclair had the vision
while on B4 and it involved him escaping while the station exploded,
it was assumed that this was an alternative history caused by the
action/nonaction of the participants.

>If you can name the episode, I'll go back and check it out.  You're probably referring
>to either the B4 episode in the first season, or the B4 two-parter in the third season.

"B squared" is the episode that had Sinclair and Garibaldi on B4 the
first time. "War without End Part One" was where Sinclair returned
from Minbar and warned that he too had had a vision where the base was
destroyed if B4 wasn't returned to the past.

>Right, and they never explained what Sheridan was doing there in prison.  We never saw
>exactly what was happening between G'Kar and Londo.
>
>There's too much set up there for it to be guess work.

Some things are best left to the imagination...
>
>Yes, I got the Law and Chaos thing--the resolution still was a big let down.

Different strokes for different folks, then. Everyone else I've spoken
to who saw the whole five years lauded JMS for having the vision and
capability to carry it out successfully.

>> For a unique TV series, I think JMS did an absolutely fantastic job of
>> piecing together a five year long program with a beginning, a middle
>> and a conclusion.
>
>First season sucked.  Seasons 2, 3, and 4 are the best viewing experience I've ever had
>with a televison program.  Season 5 was a snoozer.

Again, in your opinion. Many, many others appreciated what JMS did.

John Lansford

The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage:
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:25:03 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: [none]

        Hi, Ian....  "Frieght-Rider" is next...  Then I've got a Belter to
design...

        O/______________________________________
        O\
        
        Republic-Class Battlecruiser  (Type BC)
        TL 11.  1200 tons. 
        Using a 1200-ton, Flattened Sphere hull, the Republic-Class
Battlecruiser is designed to operate as the principal ship-of-the-line in
DSN operations.  As well, they are slated to operate in protective-barrier
operations in carrier battle groups.
        It is performance-rated at jump-2, 2-G acceleration and 36EP
        Fuel tankage for 396 tons supports the power plant and 1 jump-2 plus
an additional 1 jump-1.  The ship is fitted with fuel scoops and a
purification plant.
        Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model/5 fib and a redundant
Model/5 fib.  There is an auxiliary bridge.
        There are 25 staterooms, 0 standard low berths and 0 emergency low
berths and.
        The ship has 1 bay and 2 turrets. There is a 100-ton missile bay,
plus 6 beam lasers mounted on 2 turrets organized into 2 batteries.  For
defense it has an armor belt of 6 and an agility of 2.  There is a 64-ton
magazine and are 100% nuclear weapons normally carried.
        There are no ship's vehicles.  
        Cargo capacity is 0 tons.
        The hull is fully streamlined.
        There are 0.1 tons of waste space.
        The Republic-Class Battlecruiser requires a crew of 25.  10 Command
Section, 2 Engineers and 4 Gunners are required.  21 Marines (1/2 UN-CMC
Platoon) is carried as ship's troops.
        The ship costs MCr1560.54, including architects fees, less class
discounts and takes 48 months to build.  The first ship was launched in
2098, with a total of 100 of these ships anticipated to be delivered over
the next 20 years.  The lead ship is the UN-DSN Rome, and is stationed with
UN-DSN Dover Battle group in the Spinward areas of the established Terran
Sphere.
        
        O/______________________________________
        O\

SHIP DESIGN WORKSHEET				1.  Date of Preparation		
							2098		
2.  Ship name			3.  Ship Type				4.  Tech Level
   UN-DSN Rome		Republic-Class Battlecruiser			   11.00 

5.  Hull	Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	Factor
Hull		1200		 		  120.00 			B
Configuration	Flattened Sphere		  (24.00)			6
Armor		 		 252.00 	1,080.00			6
Waste Space						
	Subtotals	 	 252.00 	1,176.00

6.  Drives	Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	Factor
Jump Drive		 	36.00 	 	144.00 			0	2
Maneuver		 	60.00 	 	100.80 			1	2
Power Plant		 	108.00 	 	324.00 	 	36.00 	1	3
Jump Fuel	1jp2	 	240.00 				
Power Plant Fuel		 36.00 				
Excess Fuel	+1jp1	 	120.00 				
Special Tanks						
Purification		 	 13.86 	 	  0.07 			
Fuel Scoops						
	Subtotals	 	613.86 	 	568.87 	 	36.00  2.00 	

7.  Controls	Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	Factor
Bridge		 		24.00 	 	  6.00 			10	
Aux Bridge		 	24.00 	 	  6.00 			
Computer	12/25	 	10.00 	 	 68.00 	 	3.00 		E
Aux Computer	12/25	 	10.00 	 	 68.00 				E
	Subtotals	 	68.00 	 	148.00 	 	3.00 	10	

8.  Weaponry	Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	Factor
Major Weapon					0	
Bay Repulsor						
Bay Energy						
Bay Particle						
Bay Meson						
Bay Missiles	1 Bay	 	100.00 	 	20.00 		 	 2	 8.00 
Turret Sand						
Turret Lasers	2 Bttry		  2.00 	 	 6.00 	 	 6.00 	 2	 3.00 
Turret Energy						
Turret Particle						
Turret Missiles						
Barbette Particle						
	Subtotals	 	102.00 	 	26.00 	 	6.00 	 4	

9.  Screens	Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	Factor
Meson Screen		 	-   	 	-   	 	-   	0	0
Nuclear Damper		 	-   	 	-   	 	-   	0	0
Force Field		 	-   	 	-   			0	0
Deflector Screen								0	
	Subtotals	 	-   	 	-   	 	-   	0	

10.  Facilities	Remarks		Tons		MCr		Crew	
Small Craft Hangars		 -   			
Big Craft Hangars		 -   			
Launch Facilities						
Launch Tubes			 -   				0	
Vehicles						
	Subtotals	 	-   	 	-   		0	

Crew Lists			Officers	Crew			
Command Section			 7		 3			
Engineering			 1		 1			
Gunnery				 2		 2			
Flight Section						
Ship's Troops			 3		18			
Service Crew						
Passengers						
	Subtotals		13		24			

11.  Quarters			Tons		MCr		Crew	
Single Staterooms	 13 	 52.00 	 	 6.50 		13	
Double Staterooms	 12 	 48.00 	 	 6.00 		24	
Low Berths		 	 -   	 	 -   		 0	
Emergency Low		 	 -   	 	 -   		 0	
	Subtotals	 	100.00 	 	12.50 		37	

12.  Cargo	Remarks		Tons				
Cargo	Potential : 0.1 tons					
Mail						
Magazine	640 Missiles	 64.00 				
		 		 64.00 				

13.  Totals	Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	
Hull				 252.00		1,176.00 		0	
Drives				 613.86	 	  568.87 	 36.00 	2	
Controls			  68.00	 	  148.00 	 (3.00)	10	
Weapons			 	 102.00	 	   26.00 	 (6.00)	4	
Screens				   0.00	 	  -   	 	-   	0	
Facilities			   0.00	 	  -   		0	
Quarters			 100.00	 	   12.50 		0	
Cargo				  64.00				
	Subtotals		1199.86		 1931.37	27.0	16	
Architect's Fees				   19.31			
Discounts					 -390.14			Agility
Totals				1199.86		 1560.54	27.0	16	2.3

14.  Notes						
        <None>						

        O/______________________________________
        O\
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:49:37 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Missile Sizes (Was Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11)

At 11:45 PM 25/11/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 11/25/98 8:07:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:
>
><<  Incidentally, "Special Supplement 3: Missiles in Traveller"
> (appeared in JTAS #21 as a pullout) comments that you can build missiles as
> big as you like, but weapons bigger than 50kg will not fit in standard
> racks.  They can only be fired from bays under the HG system.  >>
>
>Thanks for the info... I don't have SS3. I quess that that is the most
>workable solution for CT (ten or twenty missiles per ton of magazine; take
>your pick...). The problem is that the missile data is talking weight
>(kilograms), and the magazine size is talking volume (displacement tons). I
>have the seeker games SDB deckplans and the missile magazines show two
>missiles taking up two 1.5m squares on the plans. I would interpret this
>(asuming the artist got the dimensions right, and this is a big if...) that
>TWO (2) missiles take up a displacement ton. This is because the plans don't
>show the "second" row of missiles (remember that the plans asume a 3 meter
>high deck, so these two "deck squares are really four cubes in two rows of
>two. Thus there is four missiles in two rows of two taking up the space of the
>four cubes. Thus one missile per half ton displacement (two squares to the ton
>displacement). 

        Well, another option is that the weapons carried aboard those SDB's
are *mean* by comparrison...  500kg weapons vs 50kg....  1-shot-ship-wreckers.

>I now see why Striker (and then FFS, FFS2, etc.) went with
>having to compute both weight and volume in their design sequences. The down
>side is that HG is SO much faster and easier to work with than the other
>systems (I can design 4-5 HG ships in the time it takes to do 1 Striker Grav
>tank) as I am NOT a gearhead....
>
>Seth
>

        Here is the "canon" blurb on the first page.  Reproduced without
permission, all standard disclaimers apply.  Material from "Special
Supplement 3 - Missiles in TRAVELLER", which originally appeared in JTAS 21.

        O/____________________________________________
        O\

        Standard missiles must be able to fit into a standardized
shipping/launch container. The launch container is fitted directly to the
launch rack and the missile is fired from it. The container includes
integral test circuitry, provides protection from extremes of temperature
and weather, and is isolated from the corrosive effects of atmosphere and
moisture.
        The standard container is a cylinder with interior dimensions of one
meter long and 15 centimeters in diameter. Sealed for safety and security,
the containers can be opened and the contents examined, removed or exchanged
- -- an important feature when components are to be custom assembled for
specific missile types.
Missile mass varies with the specific type of missile and is the sum of the
masses of the missile's components.         For convenience, missile mass is
used to determine space limitations on missiles. A standard container will
hold any missile of 50 kilograms or less; missiles in excess of 50 kilograms
are unable to fit in standard missile containers, and thus in standard
missile launch racks.
        Missile containers each mass 5 kilograms, and are disposed of when
the missile is expended.
        Missiles which exceed 50 kilograms must be handled in launch bays
available under the High Guard construction system; they cannot be launched
from ordinary turret missile launch racks.

        O/____________________________________________
        O\

        That's a Very Small Weapon, for a ship-killer.  Given that the
12nm-range (~21km) Styx system is about 2m long and ~30cm diameter.  The
Harpoon boxes are ~5m x ~60cm;  that's 500kg HE to 80nm (~140km).  Against
light cruisers or lower, a Harpoon could be argued to be a
1-shot-ship-wrecker.  The Styx is less effective, but cheaper too.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:12:01 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: E-mail and the Traveller Setting

I'm sure that you all have gotten any number of e-mails that ask you to
forward said e-mail to other people.  Some are chain letters (asking you
to send money to somebody or another), and some are simply friendly
(such as the "e-mail snowball fignt").

Given the nature of the X-boat network, do you think that such messages
proliferate throughout the Imperium?  If so, just how many
years/decades/centuries do such things float around in the message
traffic?  (My gut instinct is that sending the equivalent of e-mail
[text files only] through the X-boat network is dirt cheap, thus
allowing for such posts to spread from world to world, sector to
sector.  YMMV.)

Of course, "Spam filters" in the X-boat network's computers might block
such things, but would presumably have to advise the sender of the
problem, so that the sender wouldn't have to pay for a message never
sent.

Your feedback, fellow sophonts?


- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:30:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic: last B5

 
> >killing people coming to save you. Using it to get the enemy to come
> >finish you off, then killing them shouldn't have lost Sheridan any
> >sleep at all. Made no sense at all.
> 
> Remember that Delenn had ordered "no mercy" at the beginning of the war..
> so the Black star was just following orders coming back to kill Sheridan's
> cruiser.
> 
> Part of the reason the Minbari were so upset about Sheridan being appointed
> to command B5 was his reputation as the Starkiller.
 
Yes, I know. That wasn't my point. A point is made of the fact that
Sheridan feels bad about his ruse--that while a necessary act, it
was somehow dishonorable. Given what you add above, and the
fact that all Earth ships knew that a distress call would bring an
*attacker*, not an offer of aid, there is no reason to feel bad
about the ruse. Nor should the Minbari since their ship was simply
killed in combat, not through any act of treachery (it would only be
treachery if the Minbari expected to *aid* not destroy the ship in
distress).

The fact that the Blackstar's destruction was a dark spot in
Sheridan's mind was a good story point, IMO. The ItB movie trashed
that (retroactively).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1200
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 26 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1201



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: disabled ships
Re: Missile Sizes (Was Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class"
Re: Off Topic:  last B5
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting
Re: Off Topic: last B5
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: Mass combat system for Traveller
Re:
Re: Off Topic: last B5
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: B5 
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting 
Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
Re: Off Topic: last B5
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Volume 1998 : Number 1200
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting
Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
Re: Off Topic: last B5
Re: Off Topic:  last B5
Re: DONT SPOIL B5 FOR THOSE OF US IN THE UK
Re: Non-ship Gearheadedness
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
Re: Defenses against teleporters
Re: Amish in Space

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:35:43 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: disabled ships

 
> >ObTrav: What happens to disabled ships in traveller? In our games we
> >always played that disabled ships became non-combatants. The winning
> >side would pick up survivors, and they were typically well treated.
> >(Imperial/Zho anyway). A distress call made from a damaged ship
> >would basically disqualify it from combat--using it as a lure would
> >be a serious war crime.
> 
>   Given Trav weapons ranges (long) any realistic combat system will give
> fire control results that make immobilized ships (at least) dead meat.
> I'm not sure what else would count as a mission kill - depends on the
> battlefield repair rules in use.

True enough. Since your sensors won't show much other than lack of
maneuver, or dropped power sig (both could be faked) the only answer
would be "ships that send distress calls" on open frequencies.

I'd expect that treaties might have some standard way of announcing
that a given combatant is out of the fray. This would be good since
otherwise combat is too deadly for crews, IMO. The idea that you
fight until you can't fight, then you are ignored til after the
battle is a good idea, I think. Obviously missiles in flight, etc.
would keep going. 

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:41:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Missile Sizes (Was Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class"

It's worth noting that if you use that special supplement, missiles
are extremely nasty. that's why something like FFS is such a good
idea (along with a combat system as a design testing device). That
sup unbalances ship combat geatly--which is fine with me, combat
doesn't need to "balance" IMO. The problem is that if it makes
missiles too great, them we get optimum ships that none of us
expect. That said, I like giving teeth to SDBs, and better missiles
is a good start.

- -merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:52:58 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:  last B5

In message <365D1FCE.B81B20D2@brokersys.com>, Kenneth Bearden
<dreamer@brokersys.com> writes
>Is anybody as disappointed with the last episode--the last season for
>that matter--of B5?
>
>Kinda, blah, hasn't it been?  It's lost its greatness.
>
>Kenneth.
>
The UK doesn't get the last 5 episodes for a month - please watch out
for spoilers.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:08:18 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting

Black ICE wrote:
> 
> Given the nature of the X-boat network, do you think that such messages
> proliferate throughout the Imperium?  If so, just how many
> years/decades/centuries do such things float around in the message
> traffic?  (My gut instinct is that sending the equivalent of e-mail
> [text files only] through the X-boat network is dirt cheap, thus
> allowing for such posts to spread from world to world, sector to
> sector.  YMMV.)

I seem to remember finding an actual price for xmail messages somewhere. I don't
remember what it was, or where the reference was. I'll have to search when I'm
at home. From what I remember, the price was high enough that you wouldn't get
spam like we do with email; you would, though, get bulk junk xmail like we get
with snail mail.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:15:59 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Off Topic: last B5

> > It never happened because it was an alternate history that Sinclair
> > avoided by taking B4 back in time to assist the Minbari in their
> > shadow war.
> 
> Where'd you get that?  I have the whole B5 series, in its entirety, on tape,
watched > it more than once, and I didn't get that out of it.
> 
> If you can name the episode, I'll go back and check it out.  You're probably
> referring to either the B4 episode in the first season, or the B4 two-parter
in the 
> third season.

War Without End part I.  When the White Star is enroute to B4.  Bout the time
when Delenn is showing them the old Grey Council footage of the last war.
This is w/o going through my "B5 archives" and watching... 

> Yes, I got the Law and Chaos thing--the resolution still was a big let down.

I kind of thought so, too.  It seemed too much of a deux ex machina for me.  I
think a much better solution would have been for the Shadows and Vorlons to
stay and continue much as they had been, though the minor races would now be
wary of them and their manipulations.  Better yet, I think the Vorlons
could've seen how they'd strayed from the purpose (and that their theory had
been validated amongst the younger races).  Would've allowed for a much better
feel than the creation of the Interstellar Alliance (which I find kind of
corny).  The Battle at Corrianis (sp?) 6 could've been handled much better.
Had the Vorlon and Shadow fleets decimated, the Army of Light/other First Ones
could've concentrated on destroying the Planet Killers and protecting the
planet, while the Vorlons and Shadows trashed each other.  It would've allowed
much better politics, post-Shadow War.  

Course, i'm still a Vorlon fan and generally favor their philosophy (which did
end up winning against the Shadow one, though also worked against the Vorlons
themselves).  The First Ones (Vorlons and Shadows included) just leaving to
never return is not a Good Thing IMO.

> First season sucked.  Seasons 2, 3, and 4 are the best viewing experience
I've 
> ever had with a televison program.  Season 5 was a snoozer.

I liked Season 1.  Almost all of the large story arcs were (quite well IMO)
set up in season 1.  The Mantis Guy, etc.  The whole developing mystery of the
Shadows.  The special effects did improve alot once they moved off the Amigas,
though.  It peaks in Season 2 & 3 and starts going downhill in 4 IMO.   I like
the character of Sinclair better than Sheridan too.  Too much was obviously
converted from JMS' original conception, too, IMO.  Ana Sheridan was obviously
substituted for Catherine Sakai, etc etc.  I'm still curious on how the whole
Valen thing was to have worked out originally...  Valen/Sinclair "returning"
to the present (and "mysteriously disappearing" in the past?)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:15:55 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

> That's very nice and all, but really doesn't apply to those of us not in
your
> country. For instance, here in Canada we celebrate Thanksgiving in October.

In October, you won't get flamed for quoting some PM (or the monarch maybe).  

> So, since this has no relevance to Traveller, or to non-American subscribers
of
> the TML, why is it here?

He did put USA in his subject header and by the nature of the subject, and the
subject is pretty easy to get the gist of.  Maybe an [OT] would've been
appropriate...  Or are you just trolling?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:27:49 EST
From: Slick1483@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mass combat system for Traveller

unsubscribe slick1483@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:29:11 EST
From: Slick1483@aol.com
Subject: Re:

unsubscribe slick1483@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:29:35 EST
From: Slick1483@aol.com
Subject: Re: Off Topic: last B5

unsubscribe slick1483@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:30:06 EST
From: Slick1483@aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

unsubscribe slick1483@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:29:49 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: B5 

> >Now it's time for you to go pick on the B5 posts.
> 
>   Is it worth picking on B5 - it's just a sad attempt to bask in the
> reflected glory of the great work of Battlestar Galactica, after all.     :)

Battlestar Galactica was so hokey we started calling it Cattlecar Galaxitive.  
About the only thing good about it was Lorne Green.  Yeah, I know he's 
Canadian...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:43:15 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting 

> I'm sure that you all have gotten any number of e-mails that ask you to
> forward said e-mail to other people.  Some are chain letters (asking you
> to send money to somebody or another), and some are simply friendly
> (such as the "e-mail snowball fignt").
> 
> Given the nature of the X-boat network, do you think that such messages
> proliferate throughout the Imperium?  If so, just how many
> years/decades/centuries do such things float around in the message
> traffic?  (My gut instinct is that sending the equivalent of e-mail
> [text files only] through the X-boat network is dirt cheap, thus
> allowing for such posts to spread from world to world, sector to
> sector.  YMMV.)

I can see the entire 3I getting buried under the weight of the Make Money Fast 
scam.  Especially in areas where the law level is low enough to where the 
government isn't Big Brother enough to protect a sucker's money.

> Of course, "Spam filters" in the X-boat network's computers might block
> such things, but would presumably have to advise the sender of the
> problem, so that the sender wouldn't have to pay for a message never
> sent.

Of course, some planet's law levels will bounce even innocent messages back to the sender.  And the way the X-boat network works, I don't see them refunding anybody any money.  Take a good look at the small print on the back of a telegram form sometime.  Interesting stuff.  All they guarantee is the *attempt* to deliver the message.  I can see this as a way to keep the 3I from frivolous lawsuits ("Yer Honor, my client's latest Xmail scam was stopped by the government's cruel and heineous spam filters, thus depriving him and his planet of billions of credits.  Therefore, we're suing the Imperium for 99 trillion credits in speculative and punitive damages."  "Did you read the Xboat contract??").

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:49:11 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )

> >ObTrav: What happens to disabled ships in traveller? In our games we
> >always played that disabled ships became non-combatants. The winning
> >side would pick up survivors, and they were typically well treated.
> >(Imperial/Zho anyway). A distress call made from a damaged ship
> >would basically disqualify it from combat--using it as a lure would
> >be a serious war crime.
> 
> Depends on the opponent.  The Zhodani are honorable about respecting ships
> that broadcast "disabled in distress" and will pickup lifepods.  Many Vargr
> raiders will not.  Sword Worlders have a nasty habit of finishing off
> crippled ships.

Howbout the Sollies?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:52:41 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Off Topic: last B5

> > But they're not!  The Vorlons and Shadow weren't good or evil, they were
> > two obsessed races that had lost sight of their goals in favor of
> > advocating their views.
> 
> I know.  That's what I'm bitching about.  If they were Law and Chaos all
along,
> then why all the quasi-religious stuff along the way.

Cause all we saw was the Vorlon side and propaganda until Sheridan went to
Zha'ha'dum.
 
> Shadows were always demonized.  Lorian has goat eyes and looks like
> somebody's interpretation of the devil.  The Vorlons look like religious
creatures to 
> all who view them.

That was just the Vorlon "programming."  What the Vorlons wanted the younger
races to believe, told while the Shadows were hiding & sleeping off the last
war.  I'm a Vorlon fan/partisan and even I saw that.  

> Before you know a lot, they lead you to believe that this Shadow war thing
was
> going to be Armageddon--an all out blood bath between good and evil.

I never got the "Ragnarok/Armageddon" feeling out of it.  The perception I got
was that the Shadows were supposed to have been so powerful and building their
strength for so many years that they might be too much for the young races.
It all comes down to the Shadow goals and how weird their strategy seemed.
Neither the Shadows nor Vorlons had any intention of fighting the other before
Kosh dies and Sheridan "opens the unexpected door."

> Then, oops again, lets have some stupid resolution to the conflict, with
Sheridan
> and Dlenn in some sort of stasis, their minds whisked away elsewhere to
> someplace the Shadows and Vorlons can talk to them.  Let's slap the older
races 
> on the hand for screwing with us all these millenniums and send them packing
to 
> the space between the galaxies.

Kind of.   The communication thing was due to the influence of Lorien and the
Shadows/Vorlons trying to persuade them to choose their "way."  That was all
handled good IMO.  The part I just don't like was the old races flying off
never to return.

As for the last episode, it was both good and a bit of a let down.  Most of
season 4 and 5 were like that (though season 5 was worse), excepting the
battles for Earth and the bits bout the Drahk interplay on the Centauri.   All
IMO.  (Carefully leaving out any more spoilers on the last episode).

As for the Blackstar/Starkiller issue and ItB, I agree w/ Merrick.  It was
made to seem that Sheridan did something dishonorable, but I find no dishonor
in the way it was presented in ItB, nor should the Minbari warrior caste.
Especially considering how genocidal the Minbari were made in ItB.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:39:39 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> So, since this has no relevance to Traveller, or to non-American
>subscribers of the TML, why is it here?

>Now it's time for you to go pick on the B5 posts.

Why? At least they're Science Fiction related, and the discussion on the
_In the Beginning_ distres call is relevant?

If you like I could post summaries of why the UK has various holidays when
they occur. They have as much relevance to this list. And before you cite
Armistice Day as previously being quoted remember that goes beyond national
boundaries.

Anyway - have a good holiday ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:42:07 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Volume 1998 : Number 1200

>Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 26 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1200

Welcome to the New Era.

Dom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:58:07 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> > Of course, "Spam filters" in the X-boat network's computers might block
> > such things, but would presumably have to advise the sender of the
> > problem, so that the sender wouldn't have to pay for a message never
> > sent.
> 
> Of course, some planet's law levels will bounce even innocent messages back to the sender.  And the way the X-boat network works, I don't see them refunding anybody any money.  Take a good look at the small print on the back of a telegram form sometime.  Interesting stuff.  All they guarantee is the *attempt* to deliver the message.  I can see this as a way to keep the 3I from frivolous lawsuits ("Yer Honor, my client's latest Xmail scam was stopped by the government's cruel and heineous spam filters, thus depriving him and his planet of billions of credits.  Therefore, we're suing the Imperium for 99 trillion credits in speculative and punitive damages."  "Did you read the Xboat contract??").
> 
I realize that Traveller doesn't have to be "Yanks in Space", and that
the Imperial legal system doesn't necessarily resemble that of the
United States in the late 20th century.  However, I wouldn't want to be
the attorney for the X-boat network, attempting to claim that a
deliberate refusal to deliver a message could be construed as an attempt
to deliver that message.  Of course, you could contractually limit
liability for failure to deliver a message to the amount of the postal
fee.  Alternately, you could have the Spam filters set up as an instant
check, performed before the postage is paid, thus preventing a potential
sender from paying for a message that won't pass muster.

> Keven

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:06:34 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > >ObTrav: What happens to disabled ships in traveller? In our games we
> > >always played that disabled ships became non-combatants. The winning
> > >side would pick up survivors, and they were typically well treated.
> > >(Imperial/Zho anyway). A distress call made from a damaged ship
> > >would basically disqualify it from combat--using it as a lure would
> > >be a serious war crime.
> >
> > Depends on the opponent.  The Zhodani are honorable about respecting ships
> > that broadcast "disabled in distress" and will pickup lifepods.  Many Vargr
> > raiders will not.  Sword Worlders have a nasty habit of finishing off
> > crippled ships.
> 
> Howbout the Sollies?
> 
Well, if we accept Andrew Moffatt-Vallance's "Prometheus Rising" posts
as representative of the Solomani attitude concerning war, we can
conclude that the Solomani are more likely to acknowledge that a ship
has "struck its colors" than the Vilani (see "Prometheus Rising", #4 of
6).  Besides, as a Pre-Contact Solomani familiar with current
intelligence doctrine, I believe that there's just too much good intel
to be gained from enemy prisoners to waste by destroying crippled ships.

> Keven
> 
> tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                      Science-Fiction Adventure
>                                                      In Reavers' Deep

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:22:34 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic: last B5

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>   I
> think a much better solution would have been for the Shadows and Vorlons to
> stay and continue much as they had been, though the minor races would now be
> wary of them and their manipulations.  Better yet, I think the Vorlons
> could've seen how they'd strayed from the purpose (and that their theory had
> been validated amongst the younger races).  Would've allowed for a much better
> feel than the creation of the Interstellar Alliance (which I find kind of
> corny).  The Battle at Corrianis (sp?) 6 could've been handled much better.
> Had the Vorlon and Shadow fleets decimated, the Army of Light/other First Ones
> could've concentrated on destroying the Planet Killers and protecting the
> planet, while the Vorlons and Shadows trashed each other.  It would've allowed
> much better politics, post-Shadow War.

Agreed.

>

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:25:05 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:  last B5

SD Mooney wrote:

> DON'T SPOIL IT FOR THE REST OF US OUTSIDE THE USA.

I should have put a spoiler warning on it, but why'd you read the post?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:26:56 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: DONT SPOIL B5 FOR THOSE OF US IN THE UK

Paul James wrote:

> Sorry for shouting but can those of you who have seen the end of season 5
> please remember we haven't seen the end of the 5th season yet!
>

Here's a clue then (I'll shout too):  DON'T READ THE POSTS TITLED B5!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:46:33 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Non-ship Gearheadedness

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes:
>Anyone got a viable clone technology so half of me can concentrate on the
>real world (tm)? Then I could get the Traveller stuff done faster...
>Either
>that or I could win the lottery so I didn't have to design detergent
>factories to afford to live and could work full time in this..

Nice to know you're not being stuck with the dirty jobs...

<duck>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:53:36 EST
From: Slick1483@aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

unsubscribe slick1483@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:58:39 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting

...
>Given the nature of the X-boat network, do you think that such messages
>proliferate throughout the Imperium?  If so, just how many
>years/decades/centuries do such things float around in the message
>traffic?  (My gut instinct is that sending the equivalent of e-mail
>[text files only] through the X-boat network is dirt cheap, thus
>allowing for such posts to spread from world to world, sector to
>sector.  YMMV.)

  If you assume that the normal X-Boat (2.6 parsec/week) system does bill
for usage (it would be quite abuse-prone if it didn't) then they may very
well have local middle-managers who do nothing but concoct culturally
appropriate spam chain-mail (AC 5?) to maximize revenues. Naturally these
people would reincarnate as telemarketers...

  Data on paid spam replication could also be then forwarded to census
people as a useful indicator of how low local IQ is :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:07:34 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

...
>At least B5 could provide the setting for a Traveller game

  Think of it - a pre-stellar world being attacked by a race of uplifted
turkeys out for revenge; crushing resistance from their tripod walkers
they herd together the horrified survivors to finish them off with axe
and three-tined bayonets!

  OC, collaborationist species (cats, dogs) would be up against the wall next...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:33:00 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

At 08:26 AM 11/26/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Sword Worlder wrote:
>> 
>> Thanksgiving Proclamation
>> George Washington
>> City of New York, October 3, 1789
>
>That's very nice and all, but really doesn't apply to those of us not in your
>country. For instance, here in Canada we celebrate Thanksgiving in October.
>
>So, since this has no relevance to Traveller, or to non-American
subscribers of
>the TML, why is it here?
>
>Cheers!
>Erwin

It is interesting that you choose this topic to gripe about with all of the
other off topic posts from the past few months.  Instead, you choose to
gripe about a post about a holiday that some people celebrate and respect.

ObTrav:  I remember a post not too long ago about what holidays would be
celebrated in the 3I.  The declaration by General Washington would be a
good example of how and why a local/regional holiday would be delared and
started.

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:46:32 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )

Date sent:      	Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:06:34 -0600
From:           	Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

>Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

>> > Depends on the opponent.  The Zhodani are honorable about respecting ships
>> > that broadcast "disabled in distress" and will pickup lifepods.  Many Vargr
>> > raiders will not.  Sword Worlders have a nasty habit of finishing off
>> > crippled ships.

>> Howbout the Sollies?

>Well, if we accept Andrew Moffatt-Vallance's "Prometheus Rising" posts
>as representative of the Solomani attitude concerning war, we can
>conclude that the Solomani are more likely to acknowledge that a ship
>has "struck its colors" than the Vilani (see "Prometheus Rising", #4 of
>6).  Besides, as a Pre-Contact Solomani familiar with current
>intelligence doctrine, I believe that there's just too much good intel
>to be gained from enemy prisoners to waste by destroying crippled ships.

Well yes and no. I'd say its a fairly safe bet that the Terrans (Solomani) went 
into the IW's respecting the Geneva and Hague conventions; but when the 
Vilani start killing prisoners and otherwise flaunting "established conventions" 
attitudes might well become less charitable. Plus to the Vilani, the Terrans 
habit of sparing a crippled enemy would present a tactical opportunity too good 
to miss. A few "tricks" and the Terrans would likely become very warry of any 
supposedly crippled Vilani ship. IMTU (IW variety) the Terrans respect 
prisoners and hold to the "conventions of War", but they are very careful of 
dead Vilani ships.

Cptn: "No 1, is that Type 1a Attack Crusier finished?"

XO: "Sir, she's dead in space, minimal power readings and no signs of 
weapons activity"

Cptn: "Hmm. I remember the New York. No 1, put a few minutes spinal fire into 
her, then close and pick up survivors"

XO: "Aey Sir"

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:04:59 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Defenses against teleporters

>I don't like the idea of allowing a teleporter to pop into a place already
>inhabited by anything substantial - what qualifies as "substantial"
>is debatable, of course.


You could always do what Rolemaster does, if you teleport into any solid
object you don't actually teleport, instead you get stunned. Make it a
massive headache or something which will stop them from being able to try
again for a while.

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

UTUP 0910 B-115A15E-C-C-A

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:47:44 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Amish in Space

In a message dated 11/25/98 9:25:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
smithw@hartwick.edu writes:

<< An entire planet of non-violent, extreme turn-the-other
 cheekists would have no such protections, and might not be culturally
 able to hire them. Defenceless, in a galaxy that is frequently not
 a very nice place. >>

I can see it now; the magnificant seven in space!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1201
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, November 27 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1202



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Thanksgiving (USA) 
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: Mass combat system for Traveller
More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper" 8^)
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
re: Off Topic:  last B5
Re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper"  8^)
Re: Amish in Space
Re: disabled ships
Re: DONT SPOIL B5 FOR THOSE OF US IN THE UK
Re: Jump-6 Courier network
Re Off Topic: B5
[none]
Re: Amish in Space
Re: Defenses against teleporters
Re: Amish in Space
Assorted TRAVELLER Support Files (MS-Word and MS-Excel)
Re: Re Off Topic: B5

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:48:11 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA) 

> ...
> >At least B5 could provide the setting for a Traveller game
> 
>   Think of it - a pre-stellar world being attacked by a race of uplifted
> turkeys out for revenge; crushing resistance from their tripod walkers
> they herd together the horrified survivors to finish them off with axe
> and three-tined bayonets!
> 
>   OC, collaborationist species (cats, dogs) would be up against the wall next...

LOVE IT!!

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:18:00 EST
From: CPsyop@aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --part0_912143881_boundary
Content-ID: <0_912143881@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

 

- --part0_912143881_boundary
Content-ID: <0_912143881@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: CPsyop@aol.com
Return-path: <CPsyop@aol.com>
To: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:13:51 EST
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 11/26/98 12:24:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

> >---Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> wrote:
>  >> So, since this has no relevance to Traveller, or to non-American
>  >subscribers of the TML, why is it here?
>  
>  >Now it's time for you to go pick on the B5 posts.
>  
>  At least B5 could provide the setting for a Traveller game
>  
>  Andrew (who was also peved at the thanksgiving post)
>  
>  Andrew etc.
>    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
>  IMTU Code
>    tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
>    kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

It was a small post and a brief plea for people to remember why a holiday is
celebrated.  Have the respect for the spirit it was given in.  I m'self posted
a month back a request to remember why some members had the day off for
Remembrance/Veterans Day (if I have missed how it is referred to in a
respective country it was of no slight, just this old Para can only remember
so much) because I felt that everyone needs a reminder once in awhile as to
why we take the time of for remembrance.  If it is of no interest to you then
pass on, but there is no need to gripe.  With everything passing on the list
between bay sizes, pirating, J-6 couriers, amount of Beenie Babies in a S-
class merchant, how many Zhondani commandos can dance on the bridge of a
Broadsword-class, ad naseum I think we can deal with a post or three wishing
the best on a national holiday on this multinational list.  I know I for one
and probably most others would not be put out by a wish by you for your own
country's observances; and would perhaps even learn something in the process.
So please give the respect that is do, take it in the spirit it was given, and
move on.

Chris Ruhl
SGT USAR
301st PSYOP Company (Airborne)

- --part0_912143881_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:21:50 EST
From: CPsyop@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mass combat system for Traveller

In a message dated 11/26/98 11:15:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:

> >$30?!? Sounds like it's your gaming shop that fleecing you.  Full Thrust
>  >should retail for $18.  Same price for the expansion book More Thrust.
>  
>  Chris - Rob's in Canada so that's $CAN.
>  
>  $18 = 11 GBP approximately. Ouch!
>  
>  There again, we pay pound for dollar prices here (eg an iMac costs the
>  equivalent of $1935 US dollars here).
>  
>  Dom

Gahh.....so that hypersonic crack I heard was my foot going into my
mouth.....<<sigh>>  So exactly how big IS the sign the says "IDIOT" over my
head.  :\   my appoligies. 

Chris Ruhl
SGT USAR
301st PSYOP Company (Airborne)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:03:44 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper" 8^)

> From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>

Hi Merrick, haven't heard from you in quite a while.  How's things?

> Battlestar Galactica was so hokey we started calling it Cattlecar
> Galaxitive.  About the only thing good about it was Lorne Green. 
> Yeah, I know he's Canadian...
> 
> Keven

Hey!  No hacking on the Canuck's Kevin... 8^P

> Howbout the Sollies?

Disabled vessels equal one of two things.  Intelligence and booty... 
Both of which are useful no matter who you work for.

> "Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
> that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
> You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
> 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
> MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/

Interesting book.  Is Rob Prior still out there?  I've spoken to one of
his ex-students in Israel who's looking to get in contact with him.

> >Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 26 1998    Volume 1998 : > >Number 1200
> 
> Welcome to the New Era.

Yea!!!  Hammer time!!!  8^)  Corn dog anyone?

> Subject: Re: Off Topic:  last B5

Do you people actually watch that show...  ICK!!!  Great plot line,
awful individual episode scripts.  What'd they do head down to
scripts-r-us?  

"I'll take two alien invasion scripts, one romantic interlude and throw
me in a mystery as well."

"That's four scripts sir you get a free, classic movie rehash with the
purchace of five you know."

"Okay well throw in the blatant Star Trek rip off episode and I'll take
the rehash of Cassabanaca for my freebie."

8^P

> From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)

Opp, there he is.  Hey Rob, do you remember a student named, Shalom
Zaidfeld.  Drop me a line and I'll try to get his EMail address to you.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 01:50:15 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

>That's very nice and all, but really doesn't apply to those of us not in your
>country. For instance, here in Canada we celebrate Thanksgiving in October.

>
>So, since this has no relevance to Traveller, or to non-American subscribers of
>the TML, why is it here?


Off topic posts get posted here on this list all of the time.  In fact,
right now there are alot more that are about something that I have even less
interest in (Babylon 5).

I've said this before to other complainers: If you have a problem with
off-topic posts, go after all off-topic posts. Why is the Thanksgiving post
any more offensive than the Babylon 5 posts? What relevance does Babylon 5
have to Traveller?

I have seen posts that are far more off-topic than the Thanksgiving post,
and no one raises an eyebrow.  "Starship Troopers" discussions raged for
weeks before anyone said "off-topic". I have seen "stupid criminals"
discussions that went back and forth for days with no complaints...

So why is this one post bad?

Why is Babylon 5 good and this post bad?

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 98 00:57:38 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: re: Off Topic:  last B5

On 11/26/98 at 06:28 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>>Is anybody as disappointed with the last episode--the last season for
>>that matter--of B5?

>DON'T SPOIL IT FOR THE REST OF US OUTSIDE THE USA.

Sorry, but he couldn't. It was spoiled in the can. :-<

However, Dom has a point let's not post any details without a spoiler notice.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:09:16 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper"  8^)

> > Battlestar Galactica was so hokey we started calling it Cattlecar
> > Galaxitive.  About the only thing good about it was Lorne Green. 
> > Yeah, I know he's Canadian...
> > 
> > Keven
> 
> Hey!  No hacking on the Canuck's Kevin... 8^P

I wasn't.  I pointed out he was the only GOOD thing about Cattlecar Galaxitive.

> > Welcome to the New Era.
> 
> Yea!!!  Hammer time!!!  8^)  Corn dog anyone?

Pass.  I hear they don't *taste* like corn dogs.

> "Okay well throw in the blatant Star Trek rip off episode and I'll take
> the rehash of Cassabanaca for my freebie."

Which was that one?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:44:34 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Amish in Space

Walter G. Smith wrote:

> (This is not intended as a slight against non-violent people, being
> something of one myself. I realize that non-violent people currently
> need the protection of dedicated, professionally violent people, and am
> happy my society has some.)

 Why thank you, most people I know don't understand this basic truth.

- --
Ave et vale.
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:36:58 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: disabled ships

On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
 
> True enough. Since your sensors won't show much other than lack of
> maneuver, or dropped power sig (both could be faked) the only answer
> would be "ships that send distress calls" on open frequencies.

 A good way to strike your colors would be to emergency vent the core
plasma of your main fusion plant to space. (If you're hurt bad enough this
might happen anyway.) This would be pretty easy to detect even from far
off, and leaves little doubt of your further ability to fight. (Of course
all that radioactive muck now floating around you is a pretty nifty sensor
cover, so if you have a cool running auxiliary power source such as a fuel
cell and some missiles, you can do some nasty things to anyone coming too
close... probably suicidal but potentially effective.)

> I'd expect that treaties might have some standard way of announcing
> that a given combatant is out of the fray. This would be good since
> otherwise combat is too deadly for crews, IMO. The idea that you
> fight until you can't fight, then you are ignored til after the
> battle is a good idea, I think.
 
 I think this sounds good, now if we could only get pirates and vampires
to play fair too...
 
>Obviously missiles in flight, etc. would keep going. 
 
 Even fully independent missiles would have recievers for in-flight course
corrections plus an option for safe self destruct. 
  
- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 08:54:57 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: DONT SPOIL B5 FOR THOSE OF US IN THE UK

At 19:26 26/11/1998 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Paul James wrote:
>
>> Sorry for shouting but can those of you who have seen the end of season 5
>> please remember we haven't seen the end of the 5th season yet!
>>
>
>Here's a clue then (I'll shout too):  DON'T READ THE POSTS TITLED B5!
>
>Kenneth.
>

This doesn't affect me because I've recently setup a mail account just to
receive TML messages, but before I received the TML in digest form.

I'm not going to shout loudly, so:

in DIGEST form YOU read EVERY message. SPOILER spaces DON'T work.

(considered that my attempt to be firm but without shouting :-)

Phil
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:10:21 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 Courier network

- ----------
> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Jump-6 Courier network
> Date: Friday, 27 November 1998 4:38
> 
> 
> I suppose with all the imperial clones running around, the best method
would
> be to expand in one direction until you reach that boundary.  Then send
your
> clone out there and undergo imperial mitosis, creating two empires run by
> the same (cloned) emperor. I suppose that is the de facto Imperial model
> with the Archdukes controlling their domains.

There is a fair amount of "imperial mitosis" in the 3I.  That's why you
have subsector and sector governments, as well as the domains.  Each level
is a bit of an Imperium itself, with enough local authority and resources
to fix "little" problems like Vargr raiding and minor rebellions.

I won't argue about this point if anyone disagrees.  My next point is more
important:

Imperial clones:  Yes, they exist, but...

There is a depressingly common misconception about cloning that seems to be
appearing again here.  A biological clone is not a psychological duplicate
of its donor.  To achieve that, you would need a second technology - one of
memory recording and impression.

This technology doesn't really appear in canon material.  The closest it
gets, AFAIK, is in one of the CT adventures "Expedition to Zhodane", where
an Impie spy has his memory/personality fiddled with to circumvent Joe
telepaths.

Alternatively, RSB mentions simulacra - clones brought up in deliberately
identical circumstances to their donor.  Such clones would be similar to
their donor, but they would still not necessarily be "identical" in terms
of experiences and personality.

In either case, why should the donor regard them as copies of himself, and
vice versa?

A simpler exercise, and a very traditional one in the RW, is to simply pack
the most powerful noble positions with your relatives.  A easy way of doing
this, that doesn't necessarily tick off the other powerful noble families,
is through diplomatic marriages.  The problem with this, of course, is it
creates rival claimants to the imperial throne, each with their own power
base...

A quick look at the history of most ruling dynasties on Earth show plenty
of civil wars between members of the same family.  For sheer density of
fratricide, try the Ptolemy dynasty in about 1st-2nd century BC...

Cloning doesn't really solve the problem

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:21:51 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Off Topic: B5

>Is anybody as disappointed with the last episode--the last season for
>that matter--of B5?
>
>Kinda, blah, hasn't it been?  It's lost its greatness.
>
I, altho' a fan (Nigh on the japanese term Otaku) of B5 through season 4,
found ALL of season 5 had lost it's touch... I stopped watching after about
5 episodes of season 5. Was it worse than the start of season 5?

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:aramis@gci.net> Note: All other E-mail addresses for me expire by
the end of november 1998!
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
UTUP 0309 6-7779577-5-5-2
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:28:22 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: [none]

Black Ice responded to Keven thusly
>Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>>
><<snip>>
>>
>> > Of course, "Spam filters" in the X-boat network's computers might block
>> > such things, but would presumably have to advise the sender of the
>> > problem, so that the sender wouldn't have to pay for a message never
>> > sent.
>>
>> Of course, some planet's law levels will bounce even innocent messages back
>> to the sender.  And the way the X-boat network works, I don't see them
>>refunding anybody any money.  Take a good look at the small print on the
>>back >>of a telegram form sometime.  Interesting stuff.  All they
>>guarantee is the >>*attempt* to deliver the message.  I can see this as a
>>way to keep the 3I from >>frivolous lawsuits ("Yer Honor, my client's
>>latest Xmail scam was stopped by >>the government's cruel and heineous
>>spam filters, thus depriving him and his >>planet of billions of credits.
>>Therefore, we're suing the Imperium for 99 >>trillion credits in
>>speculative and punitive damages."  "Did you read the >>Xboat
>>contract??").
>>

Creates an interesting leagal quandry: can you sue the impeium, or or it's
branches, offices, etc, or can you only sue the indiviual who failed to do
his duty?

>I realize that Traveller doesn't have to be "Yanks in Space", and that
>the Imperial legal system doesn't necessarily resemble that of the
>United States in the late 20th century.  However, I wouldn't want to be
>the attorney for the X-boat network, attempting to claim that a
>deliberate refusal to deliver a message could be construed as an attempt
>to deliver that message.  Of course, you could contractually limit
>liability for failure to deliver a message to the amount of the postal
>fee.

I limit it IMTU to 0 Cr. The X-mail contract does not guarantee delivery,
period. Only that the message will get as far as the x-mail station in the
target system. The local station, if practical, will attempt to use (in
order of precedence from first to last) local e-mail delivery, local
telecomm notice, local e-mail notice, local snail-mail delivery,
notification by "detatched Duty scout in person" (Gotta earn those 3 hots
and a cot...), posting of incoming message to the starport's ship-to-shore
register, lookup on local WWW equivalent of "Pending Incoming X-Mail",
holding for not more than a year in local terminal. Which is why, in my
campaigns, ship-board personell often call the scout base/office/rep upon
arrival. Old mail can be a really fun plot hook.

>Alternately, you could have the Spam filters set up as an instant
>check, performed before the postage is paid, thus preventing a potential
>sender from paying for a message that won't pass muster.

Not practical... while (IMTU, at least) long-range X-mails are rare, even
the fairly common 4-12 parsec range resulits in far too many worlds and
local governments to run the spam check at the origination end. And I
charge extra for multiple recipients... 10% extra per each, assuming same
destination world. No multiple mailing discout for different worlds.

IMTU, The average speed of X-mail is 3.6 Parsecs per 9 days along Routes,
and 1.4 parsecs per 10 days to outlying systems. Almost every world that is
not red zoned has a scout "Site"... in many cases this is a small (1 to 4
sophont) generic unit, which is manned by scouts, and handles the routine
traffic. IMTU, there are about 2.5 scout couriers per world on Commo
duty... and all x-mail runs from local world, to X-mail route world via
courier, along route to nearest route world to desination, then back to
courier for the jump(s) to the destination world. There are X-boats every 3
days on average along the routes, each way.

IMTU, the disclaimer for X-Mail reads something like as follows:

The party of the first part, specifically known as ____, also known as the
Sender, does hereby request the party of the second part, spcifically known
as the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service Communications Office, and also
known as the IISS-CO , to transmit from one site to another the message
submitted by the Sender, specifically the IISS-CO site at _____ (aka
Originating site) shall cause to arrive at the IISS-CO site at _____ (aka
Destination site)an electronically stored document, addressed to the party
of the Third part, Specifically known as _____, also known as the
Recipient. The Sender assumes sole and total responsibility for the content
of the  document. The IISS-CO shall make any reasonable and proper attempts
to notify the Recipient that said message is waiting at the destination
site, in accordance with IISS-CO Procedural Manual X-2 (X-mail handling
Manual). The IISS-CO shall bear no liability for the notification or lack
thereof of the recipient, nor the content or use of the document by the
Recipient. The IISS-CO may delay, re-route, or stop any message for any
reason, without notification of the sender, reciever, or any third parties.
Messages that are not immediately deliverable shall be held for not less
than 7 days, and not more than 365 days from arrival at the destination.
All documents shall be in a non-executable form, or during transfer,
re-encoded into such form. The IISS-CO may, if a message is unable to
arrive at the destination site, choose to issue a refund on the customary
conveyance fees, in whole or in part, at the sole discretion of the
commanding sophont of the Originating Site, without recourse by the Sender
or Recipient. The IISS-CO, may, at any site where the message may be
transimitted to, though, or by, release the document to the recipient, at
the discretion of the agents/employees/members of the IISS-CO upon
establishing that the individual is indeed the intended recipient to the
best of their knowledge (Imperial Citizen ID usually being the standard of
proof, if said ID's registry number is included in the Recipient
Information). In SUch cases, the IISS-CO shall not further transmit said
message, and shall consider the request to have been fulfilled. No
unauthorized modification to this release shall be deemed valid or binding.
Authorized modifications shall be found in IISS-CO Procedural Manual X-3
(X-mail Customer Service). Customary conveyance fees shall be based upon
the  most recent update to IISS-CO Procedural Manual X-3 at the originating
site. Any fees incurred in the notification of the recipient shall be the
responsibility of the recipient, unless pre-paid by the sender. //signature
block follows//
________________		____________________________
Sender Signature		IISS-CO Authorized signature
___-____ _____Hrs ISC
Date and time of signing (Both signatures must occur within 10 minutes of
each other; use later time, and if needed, date. Use Imperial Standard
calendar dates and times ONLY.)
_______________
Location signed
//nothing follows//


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:aramis@gci.net> Note: All other E-mail addresses for me expire by
the end of november 1998!
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
UTUP 0309 6-7779577-5-5-2
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:28:31 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Amish in Space

At 23:47 26/11/1998 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 11/25/98 9:25:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>smithw@hartwick.edu writes:
>
><< An entire planet of non-violent, extreme turn-the-other
> cheekists would have no such protections, and might not be culturally
> able to hire them. Defenceless, in a galaxy that is frequently not
> a very nice place. >>
>
>I can see it now; the magnificant seven in space!
>
Wasn't that "Battle Beyond The Stars"?

Phil
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:40:23 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Defenses against teleporters

At 17:04 27/11/1998 +1300, "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
wrote:
>
>>I don't like the idea of allowing a teleporter to pop into a place already
>>inhabited by anything substantial - what qualifies as "substantial"
>>is debatable, of course.
>
>
>You could always do what Rolemaster does, if you teleport into any solid
>object you don't actually teleport, instead you get stunned. Make it a
>massive headache or something which will stop them from being able to try
>again for a while.
>
How does it deal with partial cases (ie what is defined as solid)?

Hmm, what about if teleporting meant that the atoms that were blocked
got left behind?
But I would think that anything short of a good vacuum would then kill
the teleporter.

I would particularly like to know if people think that you can teleport
to or from a pool of water.

Phil



- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 08:47:55 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Amish in Space

At 11:28 AM 27/11/98 +0000, you wrote:
>At 23:47 26/11/1998 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>>In a message dated 11/25/98 9:25:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>>smithw@hartwick.edu writes:
>>
>><< An entire planet of non-violent, extreme turn-the-other
>> cheekists would have no such protections, and might not be culturally
>> able to hire them. Defenceless, in a galaxy that is frequently not
>> a very nice place. >>
>>
>>I can see it now; the magnificant seven in space!
>>
>Wasn't that "Battle Beyond The Stars"?
>
>Phil

        Yes!  A Wonderbar piece of camp!

        "Prepare a meal.  Full course.  Bury him with it."
        "Sir?"
        "That was our deal.  A hot meal and a place to hide."
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:22:20 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Assorted TRAVELLER Support Files (MS-Word and MS-Excel)

	Version now 11981127.

        Special Supplement 3 'Missiles' Design Sheet (Excel 97) - Fill in
the green cells with either "Y" or "N", plus the warhead mass/ yeild of the
weapon, and this sheet will spit out a missle designed by the rules in this
JTAS #21 pull-out.

        Of note is that these rules make using nukes in space *phenomenally*
expensive.  See a few missle designs in a following message.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:04:15 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Re Off Topic: B5

William F. Hostman wrote:

> Was it worse than the start of season 5?
>

The fifth season clunked along...a few cool moments here...maybe one
there...then, just like Lorien said, one day, it just stopped.

And, that's about how it ended.  It just stopped.  No bang.  No boom.  Just
slump.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1202
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, November 27 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1203



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Some questions...
Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: Density (gearheads alert)
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Clones (was: Jump-6...)
Me (was: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper" 8^))
Re: Languages in Traveller
Re: Deep Meson Sites
B5 Spoilers are Justified!
Uplifted Turkeys & the Muppet factor 
Re: Amish in Space
Re: Some questions...
Re: [none]
Re: Some questions...
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting
RE: Mass xombat system for Traveller
Re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper"8^)
Re: X-boats and missiles
RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #1201
Re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper"8^) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:15:38 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Some questions...

I'm putting the last touches on a contact article describing a culture in
my campaign, and I want to make sure that I've dotted my i's and crossed my
t's:

1) Starting with around 10000 adults, and assuming agressive breeding, what
would be (approximately) the population in 600 years?

2) What size of population is required to assure (hopefully) that genetic
drift occurs - that is, you do not have inbreeding.

3) Is there any canon reference to which animals the Solomani were working
on uplifting first, and when did they start.

4) Assuming there was an outside culture assisting (by information and
infrastructure exchange), how quickly could a culture go from TL 9 to TL 12?

5) Here's a philosophical one - what religions on the planet would be in
favor of the realities of colonization? For example, I don't consider the
Catholic Church to be one - why? Normally, a colony would _have_ to enforce
as a matter of policy the notion of birth control - especially at the
begining (you need to be working on the infrastructure of the colony for a
year or two...not having babies). The Catholic _Church_'s stance on birth
control would preclude them from endorsing this (note, I'm talking about
the Church, not Catholics in general. I'm refering to Dogma, not people
themselves). I'm more interested in religions I'm not familiar with:
Judism, Islam, Buddhism, Mormon, Scientology (hey, some people consider it
a religion - others a cult - I have no idea), Hindu....does anyone know
what these religions would think of "leaving the womb" (would they consider
it abandoning God's (Allah, etc...) plan, etc...), the neccessary practices
of colonization, etc...

Any help would be appreciated...


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                        |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AIM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AIM: CMS AndyA    |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+   |
|       vi+ da+                                                       |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+     |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                            |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 07:23:49 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )

At 06:49 PM 11/26/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Howbout the Sollies?

Hmmm... IMNSHO, the Solomani Navy woukld adhere to the laws of warfare, and
respect a ship that has "stuck its colors" and declared itself disabled.
However, SolSec ship are probably a little bit more.. enthusiastic about
continuing the pursuit.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:32:55 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting

I suspect that there won't be the spam problem for two reasons:

1) The SENDER PAYS for each message, so emailing 3 billion messages will
cost the scammer a chunk of change.

2) IMTU at least, there are NO ANONYMOUS SENDERS. Granted, some planets
may not keep good records, but the IISS doesn't have the problem with
hotmail and anonymous remailers in foreign juristictions.


Whether the above holds for your TU is up to you, but it works for me.
Think of it as being a telegraph network in space rather than the
Internet. There will still be scams and fraud, but not the mass nuisance
of spamming.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:40:00 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> writes:
>It is interesting that you choose this topic to gripe about with all of
>the
>other off topic posts from the past few months.  Instead, you choose to
>gripe about a post about a holiday that some people celebrate and respect.
>
>ObTrav:  I remember a post not too long ago about what holidays would be
>celebrated in the 3I.  The declaration by General Washington would be a
>good example of how and why a local/regional holiday would be delared and
>started.

If the full text had been followed by an attempt to make it
Traveller-relevant, or a discussion of how a small group (IIRC mainly one
woman) got a parochial holiday adopted nationwide) I suspect no one would
have minded. I suspect people would even have tolerated it if the poster
had indicated that it was a greeting to Americans (and yes, I saw the USA
in the title).

FWIW, I would have liked to see some spoiler warning on the B5 posts
(we've had most of S5 here, but not everything), and I definately wanted
to see some ObTravs. I'm a B5 fan, but I discuss that on the B5 list, not
the TML.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:03:47 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Density (gearheads alert)

Martin Hardgrave wrote: 
> In message <Pine.SOL.4.02.9811251517570.10867-100000@alya.utu.fi>, Eppu
> Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi> writes
> > (BTW any _real_ scientists on the list, don't crucify me for this. I
> >know very well G-Waves are a subject of heated debate in the real world.)
> 
> Yes, and if you detected nanometer (10e-9 m) sized changes I'd be
> worried - aren't they building miles-long detectors just to measure 10e-
> 20 m sized changes?

annual 'suspension-of-disbelief' rant/ 

The key thing to remember here is that canon densitometers (as well as nuke
dampers) are offshoots of gravitics technology. If we can make you feel like
you're sitting on your arse on your front porch as your ship pulls 3 G
acceleration without explaining it, I think trying to define _how_ and _why_
densitometers work is an major excercise in futility, much as Lord Kelvin
attempting to explain the internal workings of an Intel 4004 processor to his
peers back in the 19th Century. A better analogy would be Francis Bacon
attempting to explain the internal workings of an Intel 4004 processor to
_his_ peers.

William Roentgen, staring at the ghostly outlines of his hand in the phosphor
screen, would have said it's not possible to use these X-rays to create  a
three dimensional map of soft tissues of the human body.

Because _WE_ don't know how to do something does not rule it out nor is our
technological prowness anything to crow about compared to the 57th century.

/annual 'suspension-of-disbelief rant

yeesh.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 07:35:26 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

At 08:07 PM 11/26/98 -0800, you wrote:
>...
>>At least B5 could provide the setting for a Traveller game
>
>  Think of it - a pre-stellar world being attacked by a race of uplifted
>turkeys out for revenge; crushing resistance from their tripod walkers
>they herd together the horrified survivors to finish them off with axe
>and three-tined bayonets!

GURPS: South Park?

Doug

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:21:34 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Clones (was: Jump-6...)

> From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>

> Imperial clones:  Yes, they exist, but...
> 
> There is a depressingly common misconception about cloning that seems to be
> appearing again here.  A biological clone is not a psychological duplicate
> of its donor.  To achieve that, you would need a second technology - one of
> memory recording and impression.
> 
> This technology doesn't really appear in canon material.  The closest it

	Yes, it doesn't (Unless you play G:T. Then, it is in UltraTech, so, 
Poof! Instant New Canon ;->). But still, keeping it as 
an experimental tech (meaning: it only works when the Ref wants), it 
allows for interesting one-shot scenarios. For instance, I recall an 
old Gurps: Cyberpunk adventure whose premises could apply to a 
Traveller adventure:

	"Yesterday you were in a party. Today, you awake, naked, in some 
sort of hospital room, tied up in a stretcher..."

	The PC is, unknowingly, a clone with a memory download of the donor 
up to the party. The donor makes regular memory recordings, in the 
hope of achieving immortality through the clones....

	Of course the original adventure had two big problems:
	1) We could argue for years whether a clone with a memory record is 
the same being or not, and whether there is any justification to the 
"immortality" claim. I believe there is not, but the donor *might* 
believe so. A reason for high-ranked nobles in the impeirum to have 
clones with regular memory downloads.
	2) The memory download would include the fact that you have clones, 
and you make regular memory recordings... No way around this. May be 
dealt with, I imagine.
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:19:39 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Me (was: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper" 8^))

>Interesting book.  Is Rob Prior still out there?  I've spoken to one of
>his ex-students in Israel who's looking to get in contact with him.

Yup, and posting. Try this email address, or regular mail to my home.

That Shalom Zaidfeld? Great guy. Remind him he still has a couple of my
books that I'd _really_ like back, as they're out-of-print already.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 12:51:40 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Languages in Traveller

Sorry if someone has already mentioned this (I've only half  been
paying attention to this thread) but some 'obscure' languages can
florish.  For example, in 1100  there  are  37.8  billion  people
spread over 19 worlds (most of a  subsector)  for  whom  which  a
mutated form of Icelandic is the primary language ...  the  Sword
Worlds in the Spinward Marches.  (Mutated form is Icelandic  with
some extra Germanic, Scandinavian, and Vilani words thrown  in  -
according to canon).

Given that colonisation wont be even spread amounst the languages
of contemporary Earth ... and  that  subsequent  events  must  be
taken into account ... that there are all the languages of  minor
races to take into account ... that many languages (like English)
are 'living' languages and thus constatly changing over time ...

... IMHO any extrapolation of contemporary langauges is  just  as
valid/invalid as any other.  Except perhaps that English in  1100
wont sound recognisable to contemporary speakers of it.

Just my 0.02cr worth.



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:12:19 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Deep Meson Sites

Black ICE wrote:
> Any suggestions about parameters of deep meson sites under FF&S2? 
> I was planning to use Andrew Akins' FF&S2 Excel spreadsheet (ver
> 3.2), only with no drives.  I would use a dispersed-type structure
> (to simulate the dispersed sensor array).
>
> What do y'all think?


Sounds fine, except 'hull'  cost  should  be  based  on  asteroid
tunnelling  costs  to  simulate  mining  (FF&S2  Table  3).  Also
remember to add some  access  shafts  from  the  surface  to  the
required depth ... at least one at 3m x 3m for access and 1m x 1m
for a utilities and communications trunk.  If the meson  site  is
very deep consider a modified air/raft as lift capsule.



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:35:41 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: B5 Spoilers are Justified!

The spoliers for the last 5 episodes of Babylon 5 are a just and righteous
punishment for those of you in the UK who have easy access to BITS
products, while we here in the States must languish unfulfilled.

And - BTW - The last 5 episodes are at least as good (if not better) than
pretty much all of Season 4.  The last episode is a little slow and
melodramatic, but serves as a nice endcap.  The second to last episode was
particularly good.  All IMHO, of course...

Steven Charlton
There - no spoilers at all.  Nyahh...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:40:19 -0500
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Uplifted Turkeys & the Muppet factor 

> Think of it - a pre-stellar world being attacked by a race 
> of uplifted turkeys out for revenge; crushing resistance 
> from their tripod walkers they herd together the horrified 
> survivors to finish them off with axe and three-tined 
> bayonets!


Followed by "Pigs In Space"...  Pigs certainly qualify as a 
candidate for uplifting.  They are intelligent, by "animal 
standards", and they even have an appropriate body mass.  

Paul Schirf

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:18:30 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Amish in Space

In a message dated 11/27/98 12:13:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
wmacdude@concentric.net writes:

<< (This is not intended as a slight against non-violent people, being
 > something of one myself. I realize that non-violent people currently
 > need the protection of dedicated, professionally violent people, and am
 > happy my society has some.) >>

The best sheepdog is a tame wolf...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:37:57 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Some questions...

On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Andrew Akins wrote:

> I'm putting the last touches on a contact article describing a culture in
> my campaign, and I want to make sure that I've dotted my i's and crossed my
> t's:
> 
> 1) Starting with around 10000 adults, and assuming agressive breeding, what
> would be (approximately) the population in 600 years?

Assuming the Male + Female = 10000 and all are 20 years old, and that
agressive breading is each female has one child a year, and that each
female starts breading at 20 and ends at 40. Population in 20 years is
110,000, asume that an equal amount of males and females exist.

We then start to go huge  as the old generation stop producing and the new
generation begin, +2500 in the first, +5000 in the second, +7500 in
the third, +10000 in the fourth, +12500 in the fith etc

After the next 20 years the population is 545,000 and this is only the
end of production of the first year of the second generation.

My head starts to seek other things to do at this point, because you start
to lose breading females cumalativly, while adding around 50,000 to
the population (this figire grows slowly over the next 20 years) and the
death rate hasn't come into it if we assum that everyone lives until
80.

So going on 1 woman producing 10 women, which is half the population,
every twenty years multiply the population by 5.

I'd guess at 10,000,000 in the first 100 years, 31,250,000,000 in the
second hundred.

The answer is probably as many as you want in 600 years ....

> 
> 2) What size of population is required to assure (hopefully) that genetic
> drift occurs - that is, you do not have inbreeding.

Lowest breading population, assuming male = female, to be an
effective breeding population, (using the best breading techniques) is 26.

Someone posted a realy good artical about this a while ago, and this is
the figure that I havn't forgoted, the gental person who posted the
artical is the one you want to speak to about population growth.

> 3) Is there any canon reference to which animals the Solomani were working
> on uplifting first, and when did they start.
> 
> 4) Assuming there was an outside culture assisting (by information and
> infrastructure exchange), how quickly could a culture go from TL 9 to TL 12?

For a canon answer see Pocket Empires, but off the top of my head its
around 10 years a TL, by this time, so say around 30 to 40 years.

> Any help would be appreciated...

Pleasure

Ewan

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:31:45 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [none]

William F. Hostman wrote:

>>> Of course, some planet's law levels will bounce even innocent messages back
>>> to the sender.  And the way the X-boat network works, I don't see them
>>>refunding anybody any money.  Take a good look at the small print on the
>>>back >>of a telegram form sometime.  Interesting stuff.  All they
>>>guarantee is the >>*attempt* to deliver the message.  I can see this as a
>>>way to keep the 3I from >>frivolous lawsuits ("Yer Honor, my client's
>>>latest Xmail scam was stopped by >>the government's cruel and heineous
>>>spam filters, thus depriving him and his >>planet of billions of credits.
>>>Therefore, we're suing the Imperium for 99 >>trillion credits in
>>>speculative and punitive damages."  "Did you read the >>Xboat
>>>contract??").
>
>Creates an interesting leagal quandry: can you sue the impeium, or or it's
>branches, offices, etc, or can you only sue the indiviual who failed to do
>his duty?

Well, in the UK, until recently the Civil Service & a lot of other
Government institutions had `Crown Immunity' - i.e. as servants of the
Crown, they were not liable to be sued - either as bodies or as
individuals.

Perhaps *this* is how the Imperial Beaurocrats & other such critters
avoid this problem.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt `wishes we *still* had Crown Immunity' Clonfero
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:12:03 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Some questions...

Andrew Akins wrote:
> 
> I'm putting the last touches on a contact article describing a culture in
> my campaign, and I want to make sure that I've dotted my i's and crossed my
> t's:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> 4) Assuming there was an outside culture assisting (by information and
> infrastructure exchange), how quickly could a culture go from TL 9 to TL 12?
> 
32 years for technological uplift, assuming the following:

1.  The Resource Unit (RU) costs can be met in the standard amount of
time (20 RU/2 years for TL 9 to TL 10, 40 RU/10 years for TL 10 to TL
11, and 400 RU/20 years for TL 11 to TL 12) (1 RU=5,000 MCrImp in M:0);

2.  No failures occur in tech uplift tasks (nor are there any
spectacular successes);

3.  The society isn't doubling RU expenditure to halve time required;

4.  The world has a sufficient-quality starport to support the tech
uplift (D-class starport through TL 11, and C-class starport to get to
TL 12);

5.  The world has sufficient infrastructure to support the tech uplift
(infrastructure of 5 through TL 11, and infrastructure of 6 to reach TL
12).

Contrast this with 320 years, and 2300 RU, to advance from TL 9 to TL 12
without outside help....

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:04:43 -0500
From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting

> 1) The SENDER PAYS for each message, so emailing 3 billion messages
> will cost the scammer a chunk of change.

> 2) IMTU at least, there are NO ANONYMOUS SENDERS. Granted, some
> planets may not keep good records, but the IISS doesn't have the
> problem with hotmail and anonymous remailers in foreign juristictions.

	Both of the above assumes afew things.  First, it assumes that
it wouldn't be possible to illegally get an anonymous account and
avoid payment.  Admittingly, big advertisers wouldn't use this to
advertise;  but how much spam is from Kellogs or Wal-Mart?  No, its
get-rich quick scams and chain letters.  I can see hackers doing that
kind of stuff, just for laughs.

	Second, it assumes that the Imperial Government doesn't allow
advertising through the messages.  They have to pay for the system
SOMEHOW, and afew advertisements can really rake in the money;  it's
how we pay for our TV broadcasts afterall...
 



- -- 
Brandon,

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 06:00:14 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Mass xombat system for Traveller

If you think that your exchange rates are bad, I'm in Australia. To buy
something from the US worth $35 US cost me $60 Australian. Our Department f
Foreign Affairs and Trade has started advising Australian citizens
travelling overseas, to take their Monopoly sets, because the money in them
is worth more :)

Date:	Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:21:50 EST
From:	CPsyop@aol.com
Subject:	Re: Mass combat system for Traveller

In a message dated 11/26/98 11:15:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:
> >$30?!? Sounds like it's your gaming shop that fleecing you.  Full Thrust
>  >should retail for $18.  Same price for the expansion book More Thrust.
>
>  Chris - Rob's in Canada so that's $CAN.
>
>  $18 = 11 GBP approximately. Ouch!
>
>  There again, we pay pound for dollar prices here (eg an iMac costs the
>  equivalent of $1935 US dollars here).
>
>  Dom

Gahh.....so that hypersonic crack I heard was my foot going into my
mouth.....<<sigh>>  So exactly how big IS the sign the says "IDIOT" over my
head.  :\   my appoligies.
Chris Ruhl
SGT USAR
301st PSYOP Company (Airborne)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:41:17 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper"8^)

>I wasn't.  I pointed out he was the only GOOD thing about Cattlecar
Galaxitive.


I thought some of the original premises, before the networks hacked
it up were good,
for instance the "Relationship Councillor" who appeared briefly in
the pilot, who
was basically a government-sponsored whore.

>> "Okay well throw in the blatant Star Trek rip off episode and
I'll take
>> the rehash of Cassabanaca for my freebie."
>
>Which was that one?


I liked the "Guns of Navarone" rip-off meself.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 07:58:33
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: X-boats and missiles

>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
>Subject: [none]
>
>Creates an interesting leagal quandry: can you sue the impeium, or or it's
>branches, offices, etc, or can you only sue the indiviual who failed to do
>his duty?
>

*thinks for a bit* fuck it. None of you will dob me in to work, right ?

This became an issue at my work, becuase my supervisor and me nearly did
something fairly illegal - an unlawful exchange of personal data with
another department.

I say nearly, because we thought we had all the permissions, and the disk
full of data nearly got back to us (our contact at the other end took a day
off, and to be blunt, that saved our asses).

We then found out it was illegal, and all sorts of fun things happened.

The short version is we got a crash course in your legal defenses as a
public servant in Australia. The short version is if you were doing your
job, and incurred civil liability, the Department will back you up, cover
costs etc. If you were going outside what you should have understood as
your job, the department will probably back you up.

If you brutally and wantonly go outside your job, you are on your own.

>>I realize that Traveller doesn't have to be "Yanks in Space", and that
>>the Imperial legal system doesn't necessarily resemble that of the
>>United States in the late 20th century.  However, I wouldn't want to be
>>the attorney for the X-boat network, attempting to claim that a
>>deliberate refusal to deliver a message could be construed as an attempt
>>to deliver that message.  Of course, you could contractually limit
>>liability for failure to deliver a message to the amount of the postal
>>fee.

*points to the No Liability warranty signed by Arbatrella when she set up
the X-boats*  The Imperium is ruled by men, not laws

>Not practical... while (IMTU, at least) long-range X-mails are rare, even
>the fairly common 4-12 parsec range resulits in far too many worlds and
>local governments to run the spam check at the origination end. And I
>charge extra for multiple recipients... 10% extra per each, assuming same
>destination world. No multiple mailing discout for different worlds.
>

Why are long range x-mails rare ? I would expect a fair amount of
inter-subsector capital mail at least.

>IMTU, The average speed of X-mail is 3.6 Parsecs per 9 days along Routes,
>and 1.4 parsecs per 10 days to outlying systems. Almost every world that is
>not red zoned has a scout "Site"... in many cases this is a small (1 to 4
>sophont) generic unit, which is manned by scouts, and handles the routine
>traffic. IMTU, there are about 2.5 scout couriers per world on Commo
>duty... and all x-mail runs from local world, to X-mail route world via
>courier, along route to nearest route world to desination, then back to
>courier for the jump(s) to the destination world. There are X-boats every 3
>days on average along the routes, each way.

*thinks* that should come in at less than a gigacredit a subsector in
capital costs to set up. Does the Navy run an independant system, or just
requisition frigates as and when needed ?

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Assorted TRAVELLER Support Files (MS-Word and MS-Excel)
>
>        Of note is that these rules make using nukes in space *phenomenally*
>expensive.  See a few missle designs in a following message.

What do you mean when you say 'phenomenally' ... what side of MCr 10 per
missile are they on ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:03:15 +0100
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #1201

>From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
>>Paul James wrote:
>> Sorry for shouting but can those of you who have seen the end of season 5
>> please remember we haven't seen the end of the 5th season yet!
>Here's a clue then (I'll shout too):  DON'T READ THE POSTS TITLED B5!

Kind of difficult in the digest... (Not impossible, no. But difficult. Which
is why I don't bother trying. ;-)

Oh, and, please, be polite. Or at least use a smiley, so we can *pretend*
you're all being friendly. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:19:52 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper"8^) 

> >I wasn't.  I pointed out he was the only GOOD thing about Cattlecar
> Galaxitive.
> 
> I thought some of the original premises, before the networks hacked
> it up were good,
> for instance the "Relationship Councillor" who appeared briefly in
> the pilot, who
> was basically a government-sponsored whore.

Yeah, that was cute.  Esoecially when the one fighter jock's girlfriend was an 
ex-hooker.

> >> "Okay well throw in the blatant Star Trek rip off episode and
> I'll take
> >> the rehash of Cassabanaca for my freebie."
> >
> >Which was that one? 
> 
> I liked the "Guns of Navarone" rip-off meself.

That was Cattlecar.  So which episode of B5 was the blatant Star Trek rippoff?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1203
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, November 27 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1204



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Efate/Regina
Re: Density (gearheads alert)
Re: Some questions...
Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11
Re: B5 Spoilers are Justified!
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting
Re: Some questions...
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11 
Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
Re: Amish in Space
Re: Population Biology (was Re: Some questions...)
Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11
Re X-mail
Re: Amish in Space
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Missile Sizes (Was Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:20:40 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Efate/Regina

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE1A2A.4199CE20
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I ran a T4 campaign last year, and my players just couldn't get a good =
grip on the 3I.

I'm planning on a new campaign (using GURPS Traveller) and I'm going to =
base them on Efate circa 1105. Emphasis is going to be on roleplaying on =
the planet, at least at first, so that contacts and patrons aren't so =
transient...

I picked Efate because of the high tech level, the high population, and =
the excellent roleplaying opportunities. Around 1105, things start to =
get very interesting on Efate.

Now, is there any established canon for Efate? Specifically, I have a =
couple copies of the old JTAS, and they seem to have quite a bit of =
newsfeed concerning Efate. Is there a "collected" newsfeed website =
somewhere that has all of these news reports?

Further, is there any infomation on how and/or why so many people live =
on a smallish planet with a thin, tainted atmosphere? I have my own =
ideas on what life on Efate is like, and will use them if I don't like =
the canon sources... But I'd like to see what is said about the place =
first.

Any help would be appreciated. This'll be the first game I run in the =
venerable Spinward Marches (I prefer Daibei myself).

- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE1A2A.4199CE20
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I ran a T4 campaign last year, and my players just =
couldn't=20
get a good grip on the 3I.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'm planning on a new campaign (using GURPS =
Traveller) and I'm=20
going to base them on Efate circa 1105. Emphasis is going to be on =
roleplaying=20
on the planet, at least at first, so that contacts and patrons aren't so =

transient...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I picked Efate because of the high tech level, the =
high=20
population, and the excellent roleplaying opportunities. Around 1105, =
things=20
start to get very interesting on Efate.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now, is there any established canon for Efate? =
Specifically, I=20
have a couple copies of the old JTAS, and they seem to have quite a bit =
of=20
newsfeed concerning Efate. Is there a &quot;collected&quot; newsfeed =
website=20
somewhere that has all of these news reports?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Further, is there any infomation on how and/or why =
so many=20
people live on a smallish planet with a thin, tainted atmosphere? I have =
my own=20
ideas on what life on Efate is like, and will use them if I don't like =
the canon=20
sources... But I'd like to see what is said about the place =
first.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Any help would be appreciated. This'll be the first =
game I run=20
in the venerable Spinward Marches (I prefer Daibei=20
myself).</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE1A2A.4199CE20--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:55:38 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Density (gearheads alert)

In message <365ECD65.609C0C9C@pharmacy.arizona.edu>, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes
>/annual 'suspension-of-disbelief rant
>
>yeesh.

I'll suspend my disbelief about many of the things you mention but not
necessarily about the way in which they are claimed to work.  If you
claim to have an antigrav drive powered by a petrol engine and dental
floss I won't suspend my disbelief.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 11:49:23 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Some questions...

Date sent:      	Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:15:38 -0600
From:           	Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>

>I'm putting the last touches on a contact article describing a culture in
>my campaign, and I want to make sure that I've dotted my i's and crossed my
>t's:

>1) Starting with around 10000 adults, and assuming agressive breeding, what
>would be (approximately) the population in 600 years?

The Maximum sustainable rate of growth (for Humans) is around 3% per 
annum. With a seed pop of 10,000, in 600 years you get around 504 billion!

>2) What size of population is required to assure (hopefully) that genetic
>drift occurs - that is, you do not have inbreeding.

Rule of thumb is 300-500.

>3) Is there any canon reference to which animals the Solomani were working
>on uplifting first, and when did they start.

I don't know about canon, but IMTU they start tinkering during the TC era, 
however they really didn't start in earnest until the RoM.

>4) Assuming there was an outside culture assisting (by information and
>infrastructure exchange), how quickly could a culture go from TL 9 to TL 12?

According to PE 32 years, but this can be halved by spending extra (and 
halved again with a spectacular success). However I'd expect it to take longer 
in practice.

>5) Here's a philosophical one - what religions on the planet would be in
>favor of the realities of colonization? For example, I don't consider the

My bet would be one of the evangelical protestant sects (Brethern, Baptists, 
Prestbyterian etc.). The are able to maintain fairly tight "displine" and have a 
stong sense of destiny.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:12:50 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11

In a message dated 11/25/98 14:28:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< << Magazine	400 Missiles	40.00 				
  		 		40.00 				 >>
 
 I have a question. I have HG2. There are no rules for magazines (pity...).
 Where did you get this data from? >>

	Missile magazines are almost a footnote in MegaTrav starship design...put
very simply (because MT uses kiloliters, HG uses tons) I would say a single
missile takes up .1 tons of space per missile...buy mag space for enough fire
for 10-20 rds of fire.  But remember:  a battery-round for a triple turret is
3 missiles; a battery-round for a 50-ton turret is 50 missiles, and 100
missiles for a 100-ton bay.)

	DustyLV769
	

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:13:57 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: B5 Spoilers are Justified!

scharlto@ifsna.com writes:
>The spoliers for the last 5 episodes of Babylon 5 are a just and righteous
>punishment for those of you in the UK who have easy access to BITS
>products, while we here in the States must languish unfulfilled.

So buy an International Money Order and post your order to England. Not a
big deal, and you'll have the goods in a fortnight or so.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:30:01 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting

Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com> writes:
>> 1) The SENDER PAYS for each message, so emailing 3 billion messages
>> will cost the scammer a chunk of change.
>
>> 2) IMTU at least, there are NO ANONYMOUS SENDERS. Granted, some
>> planets may not keep good records, but the IISS doesn't have the
>> problem with hotmail and anonymous remailers in foreign juristictions.
>
>	Both of the above assumes afew things.  First, it assumes that
>it wouldn't be possible to illegally get an anonymous account and
>avoid payment.  Admittingly, big advertisers wouldn't use this to
>advertise;  but how much spam is from Kellogs or Wal-Mart?  No, its
>get-rich quick scams and chain letters.  I can see hackers doing that
>kind of stuff, just for laughs.

Actually, you're making an assumption (or maybe I wasn't that clear). I do
_not_ equate the IISS xboat messages (xmail) to Internet email. On some
worlds you have to walk down to the IISS office and type your message
there. On others the IISS might be connected to the local datanet, but
they won't send anything until _after_ the funds are transfered into their
account. 

So there are no "anonymous accounts". The IISS will have your banking
information, or a securicam record of a physical visit. 

And hacking into the IISS computer net? That's an Imperial crime, and
Imperial justice is swift and hard (IMTU, at least).  Ditto for banks.
Part of the problem in the real world is that hacking is considered as
mischief by many people, in spite of the damage done, and part is that our
computer networks were not designed with security in mind.  

Chain letters and pyramid schemes? Sure, these go on, but tracing the
senders is a lot easier. 

>
>	Second, it assumes that the Imperial Government doesn't allow
>advertising through the messages.  They have to pay for the system
>SOMEHOW, and afew advertisements can really rake in the money;  it's
>how we pay for our TV broadcasts afterall...

You're comparing apples and oranges. TV is a broadcasting medium, xmail is
pojnt-to-point. Think of telegraph and telephone and you have a better
analogy.

Now, you _could_ pay for lots of advertising letters. IMTU, the IISS would
take your money and deliver the messages - but they wouldn't give you a
bulk discount, and they would require firm destination addresses.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:36:25 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Some questions...

Ewan Quibell wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Andrew Akins wrote:
>
> > I'm putting the last touches on a contact article describing a culture in
> > my campaign, and I want to make sure that I've dotted my i's and crossed my
> > t's:
> >
> > 1) Starting with around 10000 adults, and assuming agressive breeding, what
> > would be (approximately) the population in 600 years?
>
> Assuming the Male + Female = 10000 and all are 20 years old, and that
> agressive breading is each female has one child a year, and that each
> female starts breading at 20 and ends at 40. Population in 20 years is
> 110,000, asume that an equal amount of males and females exist.

Well, if you assume by aggressive breeding that the males are kept as sperm donors
only and everything is run by the matriarchs (40+ years old), then you can use a
350 to 1 female to male population (assuming 1 coupling a day with about 2 weeks
off for rest).  Then, assuming they can predict the sex of the foetus, you can
abort the males in favor of the female as well as any genetically defective
offspring.

With THAT aggressive breeding you would start with breeding population of about 30
male donors and 9970 baby factories.  After 20 years the initial breeding
population would retire but would be replaced by the first of the new generation,
every year after that another Initial breeding population adds to the current
breeding population.  By year 40 the breeding population would be 20 times the
initial and I believe would increase by the same factor every 20 years as the
older breeding population gives way to the new generations.  The total population
is a different matter.

However, suffice it to say that a 10000 breeding population could expand to
10000x20^30.

However, this is not anywhere near the realistic growth rates.

>
>
> We then start to go huge  as the old generation stop producing and the new
> generation begin, +2500 in the first, +5000 in the second, +7500 in
> the third, +10000 in the fourth, +12500 in the fith etc
>
> After the next 20 years the population is 545,000 and this is only the
> end of production of the first year of the second generation.
>
> My head starts to seek other things to do at this point, because you start
> to lose breading females cumalativly, while adding around 50,000 to
> the population (this figire grows slowly over the next 20 years) and the
> death rate hasn't come into it if we assum that everyone lives until
> 80.
>
> So going on 1 woman producing 10 women, which is half the population,
> every twenty years multiply the population by 5.
>
> I'd guess at 10,000,000 in the first 100 years, 31,250,000,000 in the
> second hundred.
>
> The answer is probably as many as you want in 600 years ....
>
> >
> > 2) What size of population is required to assure (hopefully) that genetic
> > drift occurs - that is, you do not have inbreeding.
>
> Lowest breading population, assuming male = female, to be an
> effective breeding population, (using the best breading techniques) is 26.
>
> Someone posted a realy good artical about this a while ago, and this is
> the figure that I havn't forgoted, the gental person who posted the
> artical is the one you want to speak to about population growth.
>
> > 3) Is there any canon reference to which animals the Solomani were working
> > on uplifting first, and when did they start.
> >
> > 4) Assuming there was an outside culture assisting (by information and
> > infrastructure exchange), how quickly could a culture go from TL 9 to TL 12?
>
> For a canon answer see Pocket Empires, but off the top of my head its
> around 10 years a TL, by this time, so say around 30 to 40 years.
>
> > Any help would be appreciated...
>
> Pleasure
>
> Ewan
>
>         Ewan Quibell
>         Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
>         Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
>         University of Brighton                  this charge
>                                               Cry 'God for Harry, England,
>         E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'
>
>                                                     Henry V 3:1
>         #include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare
>
>         My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:36:22 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

In a message dated 11/26/98 15:17:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:

<< He did put USA in his subject header and by the nature of the subject, and
the
 subject is pretty easy to get the gist of.  Maybe an [OT] would've been
 appropriate...  Or are you just trolling?
 
 
 Gary   >>

	Trolling seems to be the likely culprit...are we now expected to
differentiate between Trav posts that are relevant to all and ones that are
irrelevant to everyone overseas?  And just how are we to know who considers
them relevent and who doesn't?  The topic listed USA...these just seems like a
bored individual seeking to stir up a bit of excitement.

	Just to fan the flames a bit myself...I hope everyone (no matter where in the
world you are) at least shared in the spirit of Thanksgiving...being grateful
for the things you have in life (like family and friends)  :-)

	ObTrav:  I am extremely Thankful to Mr Miller for providing all of us such a
wonderful and wide universe in which to escape from the bad times in life!!

	DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:37:30 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11 

> Missile magazines are almost a footnote in MegaTrav starship design...put
> very simply (because MT uses kiloliters, HG uses tons) I would say a single
> missile takes up .1 tons of space per missile...buy mag space for enough fire
> for 10-20 rds of fire.  But remember:  a battery-round for a triple turret is
> 3 missiles; a battery-round for a 50-ton turret is 50 missiles, and 100
> missiles for a 100-ton bay.)

Battery round for a triple missile turret is 9 missiles.  3 per rack.  Then 
you get to reload.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:43:12 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )

In a message dated 11/26/98 15:53:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< > 
 > Depends on the opponent.  The Zhodani are honorable about respecting ships
 > that broadcast "disabled in distress" and will pickup lifepods.  Many Vargr
 > raiders will not.  Sword Worlders have a nasty habit of finishing off
 > crippled ships.
 
 Howbout the Sollies? >>

	This would be a hard call...there is documented proof that both the Japanese
Navy and the United States Navy killed survivors of ship sinkings during WW2
(at the Battle of Midway, a Dauntless crew was picked up, interrogated, and
tossed overboard with filled water cans tied to them.  I cannot remember the
details of the US incident, but it was a submarine crew who machine-gunned
Japanese survivors.  I remember not being able to believe it, but it
apparently was confirmed.  The Navy discharged the captain of the sub quietly)
There was also a German U-boat captain tried and convicted of killing sinking
survivors, but I seem to recall there was no definate proof it actually
happened.  Everyone knows that the war-crimes trials had nothing to do with
justice.

DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:45:33 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Amish in Space

In a message dated 11/26/98 20:49:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<<  can see it now; the magnificant seven in space!  >>

	Been there, done that...Magnificent adventure!  :-)

	Dusty

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:45:46 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Population Biology (was Re: Some questions...)

> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:15:38 -0600
> From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
> Subject: Some questions...
> 
> I'm putting the last touches on a contact article describing a culture in
> my campaign, and I want to make sure that I've dotted my i's and crossed
my
> t's:
> 
> 1) Starting with around 10000 adults, and assuming agressive breeding,
what
> would be (approximately) the population in 600 years?
> 

The other poster that answered this question assumed each woman could
produce 20 offspring in her lifetime -- that would be the *most* any normal
woman could produce, not the average, and you can ask the women on the list
what their opinion of any such scheme would be.

Historically, frontier societies seem to grow at about 4% per annum --
about 4.7 offspring per woman, on average.  Even at this rate, your society
would reach 166 trillion population in 600 years.  The question would be,
how long can you really maintain the "frontier" society and its forces for
growth? A more reasonable estimate might be per GURPS Space:  figure up the
habitable land area of your world, divide by 175 million km^2 (Earth's
approximate land area), multiply by 10 billion people, and multiply again
by a fudge factor representing how habitable your world is, relative to
Earth.  

> 2) What size of population is required to assure (hopefully) that genetic
> drift occurs - that is, you do not have inbreeding.
> 

Species survival plans use a minimum breeding population of 500 (male and
female combined) as a rule of thumb for survival over 10 generations
without excessive drop in fertility from inbreeding.  This assumes that the
population remains steady, that each breeding pair produces the same number
of offspring, and that breeding is essentially random.  For each of these
assumptions that is not true, double the effective population size
required, although some controlled breeding schemes (half-sibling mating,
etc.) can actually reduce the numbers.

Note that this is breeding population. In a typical human society, the
breeding adults represent at most 60% of the total, so you'd really need
about 800-850 of all ages, minimum. Note also that this does *not* avoid
inbreeding, it only keeps the level of inbreeding below the threshold that
stock breeders have found empirically leads to loss of fertility.

Finally, this is based on a 10-generation population bottleneck (like a
generation ship).  If the bottleneck is only one generation, and the
population is allowed to grow exponentially thereafter, the minimum
population in the bottleneck can be as low as 50 wholly unrelated breeding
individuals (25 male and 25 female).  

By the way, your 10,000 population will not show *any* significant
inbreeding (< 1%) even if held constant over a period of as much as 2,500
years.  I did the math for the ESA Long Range Colony Mission, and it is
simply too large a sample to matter.  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:55:28 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11

In a message dated 11/27/98 15:41:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< > Missile magazines are almost a footnote in MegaTrav starship design...put
 > very simply (because MT uses kiloliters, HG uses tons) I would say a single
 > missile takes up .1 tons of space per missile...buy mag space for enough fire
 > for 10-20 rds of fire.  But remember:  a battery-round for a triple turret is
 > 3 missiles; a battery-round for a 50-ton turret is 50 missiles, and 100
 > missiles for a 100-ton bay.)
 
 Battery round for a triple missile turret is 9 missiles.  3 per rack.  Then 
 you get to reload.
  >>

	This turns out not to be correct...
	Battery-Round (n):  The amount of fire from one weapon per one fire round.
Hence, a triple missile rack (with 3 launchers) can fire 1 missile from each
weapon in the turret per combat round, thus equalling 3 missiles per turret
per round.  Therefore, one battery-round is 3 missiles, with a turret holding
3 battery-rounds of ready ammo.  Works the same for the bays.

DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:55:59 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re X-mail

me:
>>IMTU, The average speed of X-mail is 3.6 Parsecs per 9 days along Routes,
>>and 1.4 parsecs per 10 days to outlying systems. Almost every world that is
>>not red zoned has a scout "Site"... in many cases this is a small (1 to 4
>>sophont) generic unit, which is manned by scouts, and handles the routine
>>traffic. IMTU, there are about 2.5 scout couriers per world on Commo
>>duty... and all x-mail runs from local world, to X-mail route world via
>>courier, along route to nearest route world to desination, then back to
>>courier for the jump(s) to the destination world. There are X-boats every 3
>>days on average along the routes, each way.
Ian:
>*thinks* that should come in at less than a gigacredit a subsector in
>capital costs to set up. Does the Navy run an independant system, or just
>requisition frigates as and when needed ?
>
Me again:
IMTU, based upon SMC, SotI (Sup _), and a handful of other stuff: Yes, the
navy runs a semi-separated system. But it's nodes are J5-6, and couriers
stand-by. Each fleet also carries a J-6 courier. Typical procedure would be
Fleet GOing to system x, with plans to go to Y. Courrier goes to Z, and
picks up orders and goes to Y. Jump 6, aerodyne Fuel-Skimming enabled
couriers can jump more rapidly than no M-drive X-boats, especially if they
have a good accell, and T-Plates.

Then again, Since I use Mega, it is possible to build a 2J6 design with
2G's... I've done it.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:aramis@gci.net> Note: All other E-mail addresses for me expire by
the end of november 1998!
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
UTUP 0309 6-7779577-5-5-2
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:29:21 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Amish in Space

Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:11:42 -0500, "Catherine Tannenbaum" <cat@perkworks.com>
>They do not avoid things out of stupidity or desire to live a hundred years
>ago, or even blind faith in their elders (there are converts).

My understanding also comes form visiting Amish (in this case in
Ohio).  They did indeed not simply want to live a hundred years
ago.  They wanted to keep a simple, religious life style.

One aspect of this is observing the Sabbath.  I was told they would
use electricity (one example was a carpenter that had a generator
so you could run a table saw) but wouldn't hook up to the municipal
electrical supply because that would mean they were requiring a
man to work on the Sabbath.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:21:40 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:34:26 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Are we told that the Imperium recognizes this strain?

>Yes. That's why the X-boat network was created in the first place.

And they may well feel it has "solved" the problem.

>>Would a 33% increase in time be enough to make a significant difference
>>in this strain (compared to the costs involved)?

>It seems very likely to me. YMMV.

Well, all I can say is that I'm not so sure.

>>Because they have solved the problem for themselves but don't want to spend
>>the money that it would take to make them generally available for all
>>messages?

>What money? 5 credits for a message chip? If the IN is sending regular
>couriers back and forth between the Admiralty and the various fleet HQs,
>you don't need anything else to expand it to carry important government
>messages.

Yes, you do.  You can come up with routes for such couriers that
leave out most systems (even compared to X-boat routes).  Also,
I doubt the Imperium is going to be sending a jump-6 courier
every few days for routine traffic.  Instead, I can see them
being around to be used for the occaison high priority message.

Such a system will be in no way sufficient to carry messages on
an X-boat kind of level.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:06:44 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Missile Sizes (Was Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class"

At 03:41 PM 26/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>It's worth noting that if you use that special supplement, missiles
>are extremely nasty. that's why something like FFS is such a good
>idea (along with a combat system as a design testing device). That
>sup unbalances ship combat geatly--which is fine with me, combat
>doesn't need to "balance" IMO. The problem is that if it makes
>missiles too great, them we get optimum ships that none of us
>expect. That said, I like giving teeth to SDBs, and better missiles
>is a good start.
>
>-merrick

        Here's a few I just whipped off with my spreadsheet.  IMTU, I
presume all items are 50% less effiecent (thereby double-sizing everything),
and 1/2 expensive (keep price the same).

        TL 8 Dart       (Typical El Cheapo, Carried Commercially)
        6G17 Continuous Burning Motor, Radio Guidance, Contact Detonating,
20kg High Explosive Warhead, 45kg Cr3390
        The TL 8 Dart does a minimum of 4 Hits on detonation.

        TL 9 Foxhound   (More effective, Carried Commercially)
        6G13 Limited Burning Motor, Radio Guidance, Proximity Fused, Force
Focussed Explosive Warhead, 48kg Cr6210
        The TL 9 Foxhound does a minimum of 8 Hits on detonation.

        TL 9 TigerStar  (Fighter-launched "Torpedo"...  two or three of
these inbound will make a destroyer Captain want shore leave)
        7G21 Discretionary Burning Motor, Radio Guidance, 'Smart' Fused ,
30kg Force Focussed Explosive Warhead, 64.8kg Cr25890
        The TL 9 TigerStar does a minimum of 12 Hits on detonation.

        TL 10 Arrow-12  (Bay launched, military-only.  Diety help you if it
actually *hits* you, since its speed piles another *12* hits of kinetic
energy, plus the 15 hits for being at ground zero)
        12G49 Discretionary Burning Motor, Neutrino Homing Guidance, 'Smart'
Fused , 0.3Kton yeild Enhanced Radiation Warhead, 103kg Cr2,782,900
        The TL 10 Arrow-12 does a minimum of 24 Radiation Hits on detonation.

        TL 11 Star Lance        (Planet-based, Silo-lauched SSTH ("Single
Stage To Hell") 1-shot-ship-wrecker.  When you absolutely, positively gotta
annhiliate the captial ship of that invasion fleet before asking them to
surrender....)
        20G68 Discretionary Burning Motor, Neutrino Homing Guidance, 'Smart'
Fused , 10Kton yeild Fusion Warhead, 738kg Cr98,247,700
        The TL 11 Star Lance does a minimum of 1000 Hits plus 200 Radiation
Hits on detonation.

        These rules are for CT...  HG comments to follow...
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1204
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, November 27 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1205



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Off-topic Question: Greek Muse of Poetry
[OT] Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: DONT SPOIL B5 FOR THOSE OF US IN THE UK
Re: Off Topic:  last B5
Re: Off Topic:  last B5
Re: Off Topic: last B5
Re: Some Questions...biology and breeding and more...
Re: various stuff
Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Off Topic:  Star Wars Timeline
Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
SS3 Missile Costs
Re: Amish in Space
Re: Missile Sizes (Was Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class"
Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)
Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)
Re: various stuff (german uboats)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:53:20 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Off-topic Question: Greek Muse of Poetry

At 02:55 PM 11/25/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Rob Prior wrote:
>
>> >PS. Any advice on how to loose the Furies on Bill Gates and the Windows NT
>> >designers would also be appreciated.
>> 
>> Still waiting for this...
>
>Well, Rob, I'd wanted to avoid this, but first thing you gotta do is
>find the real copy of this book, called the Necronomicron... ;-)
>
>Of course, the _other_ way to do it is to invent reactionless thrusters,
>get a lifeboat, stick it waaaay out in the Oort cloud, point the thing
>at Redmond and turn the thrusters on...
>
... and make sure he's in Redmond when it gets there, and not off demoing a
copy of Windows 2000 to that other notorious Bill ("Yes, Mr President,
here's your beta, now, where's that intern you told me about?")

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:39:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>He did put USA in his subject header and by the nature of the subject, and the
>subject is pretty easy to get the gist of.  Maybe an [OT] would've been
>appropriate...  Or are you just trolling?

Hmm. It's really easy to filter it out of the Digest. not.

[OT] would be better.

or even a half hearted [ObTrav].

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:51:46 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: DONT SPOIL B5 FOR THOSE OF US IN THE UK

Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote:

>This doesn't affect me because I've recently setup a mail account just to
>receive TML messages, but before I received the TML in digest form.
>
>I'm not going to shout loudly, so:
>
>in DIGEST form YOU read EVERY message. SPOILER spaces DON'T work.
>
>(considered that my attempt to be firm but without shouting :-)

Oh yes they do! ;-)

That's when you close your eyes and scroll or don't read the text and let
it swim past.

Or that's when curiousity wins...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:46:23 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:  last B5

Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:

>I should have put a spoiler warning on it, but why'd you read the post?

Because the *last B5* for me (and the rest of the UK) was midway through
series 5....

As to not reading anything with B5 in it; that precludes discussions
involving the Earthforce Sourcebook combat system re Battlerider etc,
discussions on the previous 80+ episodes and films and so on, all of which
could be relevant to the topics covered on this list....

Oh well...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:16:44 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:  last B5

At 01:30 AM 11/26/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Is anybody as disappointed with the last episode--the last season for
>that matter--of B5?
>
>Kinda, blah, hasn't it been?  It's lost its greatness.
>
>Kenneth.
>
Actually, all but the last episode (and even it to some extent), seem to be
leading into another set of movies (Drahk war/Centauri Liberation, Telepath
War, Pak Morah cooking show).

Notice, we still haven't met David, and Lenir (Lancelot?) is still out
there (yes, he's implied to be dead in the last episode, but how?). Calling
this the "last" episode of Babylon 5 simply is a misnomer, it's only the
last of the series.

I loved the last episode, it did exactly what it was ment to, bring the
series to a close. People expecting a space opera type "go out with a bang"
show may be missing the whole vision that Michael intended. I was
disappointed at not seeing a Vorlon ship with Valen/Sinclair waiting for
Sheradon, but Lorien worked for me :)

(On Topic) How many have used snipits from B5 as inspiration/plot devices
in your campaigns.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:25:24 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Off Topic: last B5

At 02:24 AM 11/26/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>
>> I kinda liked the last episode, except they didn't tie up all the loose
ends,
>> like, whatever *did* happen to Lennier after he left the Rangers, and what
>> happened to Lyta.  But as a last episode, it didn't have too many
surprises.
>> I liked it anyways.
>
>It was touching in parts, but it was so slow...and definitely not what I
>expected.  Remember in season one when Garibaldi is flashed forward in
time to a
>big fight on the station.  This happens in that episode where B4 pops up.  He
>yells, to Sinclair, "I was born for this!".
>
>That never happened--and they've been so good about details like that in other
>episodes.

Wondered who would miss the point, your likely not the only one... B4's
transit back in time stopped that from happening. Notice it was Sinclair,
not Sheradon that was with Garibaldi in that flashback, but right after
that, Sinclair was sent to Mimbar.

>Also, what about all those flash forwards to Centauri Prime, with Londo on the
>throne, Sheridan and Dlenn in Londo's jail, with G'Kar coming out to kill Londo?
>
>That should have happened some time in the series.

Question is, will it happen at all. The last episode and the "In the
Beginning" movie imply it will, and in a sense, they don't need to show an
episode with that except to tell how Delen and Sheradon get there in the
first place (and of course, get out).

>And...I was so damn disappointed in the resolution to the Shadow War. Almost four
>years of build up, then boom, "We're not children anymore", "go off and play by
>yourselves in the space between the galaxies."
>
>They set it up like it was going to be this massive, quasi-religious fight.  You
>know--the Shadows are Evil;  the Vorlons are Angels of Battle.
>
>And, then it was nothing.
>
>Disappointment.

I have a fealing that it was cut short by the fact that JMS and Babylonian
production's fear that they didn't have enough time for a long, drawn out
space opera fight, they thought they had to resolving the series sooner
than they wanted. Your dissapointment probably came from the suddenness of
the end. If JMS had time to feed us more info before the end, it wouldn't
have been such a shocker.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:52:13 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Re: Some Questions...biology and breeding and more...

Ack! My assumptions were way off...

I need to lower the number of colonists then...I'm trying to create a
situation where the colonists would be worrying about breeding and such.
The basis is that the mission originally had enough breeding adults, but
that an accident in transit killed a significant portion of them. Thus the
survivors need to do some clever stuff to survive. But I assumed that the
numbers would be higher...so I need to change things a bit. Not a problem,
and I'm glad I asked before finishing up.

The scenario is this:
  The colonization mission consists of C adult colonists (age 20 to 40) and
E embryos, all frozen. During the mission, a significant percentage of the
adult colonists (say 80-90%) die in hibernation due to an accident.

  Eventually, the colonists arrive and are awoken to learn that the
majority of their numbers have not made it. In order to bolster the
population, the majority of the women that can carry children are
_required_ to bear many children. In order to keep jealousy down, each
woman is not required to bear the children of any colonist except her
husband/lover - however, for every child that is "natural", they also carry
one of the embryos to term. This encourages diversity. A problem that
occurs is that of workforce - a lot of people died, so some labor is lost.
The colony picks up the slack by relying on robotics. Indeed, many of the
children are raised by primitive nanny-bots (under supervision, of
course...the bots are rather stupid).

  Comments? Any idea what kind of numbers I'm looking at? And what kind of
population this world might have in 600 years?

  Slam away....
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                        |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AIM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AIM: CMS AndyA    |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+   |
|       vi+ da+                                                       |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+     |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                            |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 11:01:54
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: various stuff

>From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Density (gearheads alert)
>
>I'll suspend my disbelief about many of the things you mention but not
>necessarily about the way in which they are claimed to work.  If you
>claim to have an antigrav drive powered by a petrol engine and dental
>floss I won't suspend my disbelief.

Hey, the Gosling class air/raft was powered by an ethanol engine.

OK, OK, an ethanol engine ran the generator that created the electrical
power to run the contragravity, but hey ...


>From: DustyLV769@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
> I cannot remember the
>details of the US incident, but it was a submarine crew who machine-gunned
>Japanese survivors.  I remember not being able to believe it, but it
>apparently was confirmed.  The Navy discharged the captain of the sub quietly

Mush Morton. It was worse than that ... he ordered the machinegunning of
civilian survivors.

>There was also a German U-boat captain tried and convicted of killing sinking
>survivors, but I seem to recall there was no definate proof it actually
>happened.  Everyone knows that the war-crimes trials had nothing to do with
>justice.

You are referring to Eck of U-852, but Donitz' instruction 154, written in
November 1939, ordered crews to 'Rescue no one and take no-one with you.
Have no care for the ships boats'. 


>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network
>
>Yes, you do.  You can come up with routes for such couriers that
>leave out most systems (even compared to X-boat routes).  Also,
>I doubt the Imperium is going to be sending a jump-6 courier
>every few days for routine traffic.  Instead, I can see them
>being around to be used for the occaison high priority message.
>

The *Imperium* probably wont. Imperial corporations, on the other hand ...

Let us take one route ... Efate to Regina. 6 parsecs. Maintainence may be
have to be done at Rhylanor, which will add about 15% inefficiency to the
system.

Efate is the economically dominant world in Regina subsector, while Regina
is the subsector capital. Thus, most important corporations will have
offices on both worlds, which will need to keep in touch.

Now, it is going to take Xboat messages, what, 3 weeks to get from Efate to
Regina.

A jump-3 express packet can do it in 2 and a bit weeks, stopping briefly at
Knorbes to either refuel or jumping through, if it is carrying 2 jump-3s
worth of fuel.

The question is therefore, what is being one to two weeks ahead of the
competition in news worth ?

>Such a system will be in no way sufficient to carry messages on
>an X-boat kind of level.

That depends on your level of investment.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:15:44 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11

In a message dated 11/27/98 3:14:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
DustyLV769@aol.com writes:

<< Missile magazines are almost a footnote in MegaTrav starship design...put
 very simply (because MT uses kiloliters, HG uses tons) I would say a single
 missile takes up .1 tons of space per missile...buy mag space for enough fire
 for 10-20 rds of fire.  But remember:  a battery-round for a triple turret is
 3 missiles; a battery-round for a 50-ton turret is 50 missiles, and 100
 missiles for a 100-ton bay.)
 
 	DustyLV769 >>

Ed; do the racks still have the 3 round on mount capacity in addition to any
magazine space purchased?

BTW; let me know if you run into any spare SS3 missile supplements. Happy
Thanksgiving...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:29:29 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting

In a message dated 11/27/98 3:31:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< Part of the problem in the real world is that hacking is considered as
 mischief by many people, in spite of the damage done, and part is that our
 computer networks were not designed with security in mind.  
  >>

G-D: I hate the little hacking bastards (personal rant). I would love to see
more prosecuted for burglary and/or vandalism. As much as I hate the Feds; I
would even love to see them start to prosecute these cretins when the
computers are involved with interstate commerce (To the non-yanks on the list;
this is how the Federal government circumvents the tenth Ammendment (they use
"interstate commerce" to get around the state's powers) so they can crash the
party - Bloo; correct me if I'm wrong). As for computer architecture; the
Stone Dogs Draka book by S.M. Stirling has a nice discusion on how computers
developed during a severe cold war, would have a much more closed set-up, even
at the cost of inefficiency. The snakes were VERY paronoid about hacking; I
guess they figured stand alone systems can't be broken into.

Ob Traveller: Hmm... The Imperium rules the space between the planets
(literally). I guess the MOJ can get involved in any interplanetary commerce
involved crime. The PC's might not be afraid of the local yokel cops, but when
they hack a government and/or megacorp database; they will probably wish they
had not...(especially if the SM's TU is a very harsh one ala' Kinunur.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:33:31 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

In a message dated 11/27/98 3:37:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
DustyLV769@aol.com writes:

<< Trolling seems to be the likely culprit...are we now expected to
 differentiate between Trav posts that are relevant to all and ones that are
 irrelevant to everyone overseas?  And just how are we to know who considers
 them relevent and who doesn't?  The topic listed USA...these just seems like a
 bored individual seeking to stir up a bit of excitement. >>

How many times does this make for the US vs the rest of the English speaking
world flamefest...?

Ob Traveller: EVERY cultural, and racial squabble in canon. My favorite is the
never ending Solomani-Vilani bro-ha-ha...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:34:36 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Off Topic:  Star Wars Timeline

If you want it...

I have created a timeline for my campaign that I am calling the Journal
of the Whills.  It's a Word '97 doc--24 pages long and continues to grow
as our game continues.  I have taken
the offical timeline from the StarWars.com site and integrated it with
items from the official WEG Star Wars RPG timeline.  In addition, I have
made notations about my campaign, creating a complete timeline that
integrates our story with the official ones in the movies, RPG, comics,
and
books.

This is interesting reading if you are interested in...

...seeing the official Star Wars timeline.

...having the official timeline in a fomatted word.doc.

...seeing how all of the novels and comics fit into the overall
storyline.

You can delete the references to my game and have an offical Star Wars
timeline.

If you want this file, let me know, and I'll send it to you as an
attachment.

Kenneth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:43:41 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )

In a message dated 11/27/98 3:44:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
DustyLV769@aol.com writes:

<< The Navy discharged the captain of the sub quietly)
 There was also a German U-boat captain tried and convicted of killing sinking
 survivors, but I seem to recall there was no definate proof it actually
 happened.  Everyone knows that the war-crimes trials had nothing to do with
 justice.
  >>

Don't forget that the British machine gunned the crew of U-110 after they
surrendered. The British searched her and found the naval codes (somehow the
German crew forgot to throw them overboard in the confusion). The British
realized the gold mine they had and drew the obvious conclusion about dead men
not talking....This is a blatant war crime (and one condoned by senior
officers), but I'm glad they did it, as this really crushed the Kriegsmarine
(besides, I still hold a grudge). The British could now evesdrop when the
Admiralty ordered U boats to a specific location. The convoys wouldn't be
there, but the B-24's and Sunderlands would... Between this and Enigma, we
knew more about the Kriegsmarine than they did...:-)

Ob traveller: Any thing like this happen cannonically? I would think that the
Imperium would kill any Zhodani that found out about the Black Globes, and the
Imperial Psionics research projects...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:52:44 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: SS3 Missile Costs

>>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>>
>>        Of note is that these rules make using nukes in space *phenomenally*
>>expensive.  See a few missle designs in a following message.
>
>What do you mean when you say 'phenomenally' ... what side of MCr 10 per
>missile are they on ?
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>
        Hi, Ian!

        From message I posted afterwards:

        0/_______________________________
        O\
        TL 10 Arrow-12  (Bay launched, military-only.  Diety help you if it
actually *hits* you, since its speed piles another *12* hits of kinetic
energy, plus the 15 hits for being at ground zero)
        12G49 Discretionary Burning Motor, Neutrino Homing Guidance, 'Smart'
Fused , 0.3Kton yeild Enhanced Radiation Warhead, 103kg Cr2,782,900
        The TL 10 Arrow-12 does a minimum of 24 Radiation Hits on detonation.

        TL 11 Star Lance        (Planet-based, Silo-lauched SSTH ("Single
Stage To Hell") 1-shot-ship-wrecker.  When you absolutely, positively gotta
annhiliate the captial ship of that invasion fleet before asking them to
surrender....)
        20G68 Discretionary Burning Motor, Neutrino Homing Guidance, 'Smart'
Fused , 10Kton yeild Fusion Warhead, 738kg Cr98,247,700
        The TL 11 Star Lance does a minimum of 1000 Hits plus 200 Radiation
Hits on detonation.
        0/_______________________________
        O\

        So, if you keep your warhead yeild down (cost MCr3 per 0.1Kton
yield) it isn't bad.  But serious ship-breakers are *very* expensive...
most of the cost of the Star Lance is the warhead.  However, you have
million-credit missiles....  given that you pretty much need USP 5+ to
guarantee a hit, that is awful pricey munitons to have then enemy frying
with beam weapons.  Again, if *one* Star Lance gets through, its "Bedtime
for Bonzo".
        
        Regards,
            Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:54:27 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Amish in Space

In a message dated 11/27/98 4:00:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
summers@alum.mit.edu writes:

<< One aspect of this is observing the Sabbath.  I was told they would
 use electricity (one example was a carpenter that had a generator
 so you could run a table saw) but wouldn't hook up to the municipal
 electrical supply because that would mean they were requiring a
 man to work on the Sabbath. >>

The Hasidic and Orthodox Jews use this same routine. I remember that when I
worked in Williamsburg, often I would be asked to come in and turn on or off
electricity and/or gas switchs that were forgotten. Once the Sabbath candles
are lit, NO flames (electricity is considered a spark of fire) can be kindled.
They have gotten very clever with long cooking crock pots (turn on before
Sabbath). The interesting thing is that they only got offended if they found
out I was Jewish (when you work for the PD you work their hours...). They
didn't mind a Gentile doing this for them, but they didn't want a Jew to sin
for them... (and I thought I was trying to help...sigh...).

Ob Traveller: the Great Amish in Space thread covers this nicely. Besides; I
think that Judaism will probably get assimilated into Christianity by 5600AD
and it will be a moot point :-(

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:57:23 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Missile Sizes (Was Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class"

Dear Sir:

You don't happen to have a spare copy of the missile supplement for sale?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:55:40 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)

Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:21:34 +0000, "Carlos Alos-Ferrer"
<Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>

>> There is a depressingly common misconception about cloning that seems to be
>> appearing again here.  A biological clone is not a psychological duplicate
>> of its donor.  To achieve that, you would need a second technology - one of
>> memory recording and impression.
>>
>> This technology doesn't really appear in canon material.  The closest it

>	Yes, it doesn't (Unless you play G:T. Then, it is in UltraTech, so,
>Poof! Instant New Canon ;->).

It should be remembered that UltraTech is a list of equipment,
grouped by appropriate TL, that a GM _can_ put into his/her
campaign.  It is by no means required, esp for Traveller.
IMO, any tech that is listed in a GURPS suppliment (that is
net explicity allowed or disallowed in GT) is up to the GM.

Another problem with clones is the time it takes to grow them.
I haven't heard anything explicitly mentioned in canon, but I
guess it is assumed that the Imperium has technology that can allow
you to grow a clone to adulthood w/out having to wait 18 years.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:23:41 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)

In a message dated 11/27/98 6:21:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
summers@alum.mit.edu writes:

<< Another problem with clones is the time it takes to grow them.
 I haven't heard anything explicitly mentioned in canon, but I
 guess it is assumed that the Imperium has technology that can allow
 you to grow a clone to adulthood w/out having to wait 18 years.
  >>

and gamers being gamers, they will push this to the extreme. Look what Gold
Cross cloning did to Car Wars...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:30:31 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: various stuff (german uboats)

In a message dated 98-11-27 20:10:32 EST, you write:

<< You are referring to Eck of U-852, but Donitz' instruction 154, written in
 November 1939, ordered crews to 'Rescue no one and take no-one with you.
 Have no care for the ships boats'.  >>

yes these orders came about after a German U-boat accidently sank a civilian
ship, and called every German Uboat in the Med to help rescue the surviours.
The Laconia Incident caused this infamous order (this became known in the
Kreigsmarine as the Lacondia Order, i have it posted below)

As for war crimes, any one who comits them should be tried for them.  no
matter what side they are on.  the moment you condone a war crime that is
commited by "Your Side" you become no better than the "Enemy" that you claim
to hate and loathe so much...  

comeing form someone like me that might sound hipicritical since i feel taht
my actions in the Gulf War where i killed the children that an iraqi sniper
was useing as a human shield.  to me this action was a war crime, and i should
ahve been tried for it instead of getting patted on the back and told good
job.

richard

Go to this page to learn more about the Laconia incident: 
                   http://uboat.net/ops/laconia.htm

On Sept 12, 1942 at 2207 hours U-156 under the command of Kptlt. Werner
Hartenstein torpedoed a large target in the South Atlantic in position 05.05S,
11.38W. The large vessel was the British liner Laconia (19,695 tons) which
sank at 2323 hours. The liner was carrying a 136-man crew, some 80 civilians,
military material and personnel (268 men) and approx. 1800 Italian prisoners
of war with 160 Polish soldiers on guard. 

Radio message from Laconia (sent on Sept 12, 2222 hours on 600 meters-
frequency) 
SSS SSS 0434 South / 1125 West Laconia torpeded

Shortly after the sinking the crew of U-156 was amazed to hear Italian voices
in the sea amongst the people both in lifeboats and also struggling in the
water itself. Hartenstein immediately began rescue operations and radioed for
assistance, both from nearby U-boats and also sent out uncoded messages to
every vessel around to assist, promising to cease hostilities. 

Radio message from U-156 to BdU (sent on Sept 13, 0125 hours ): 

Versenkt von Hartenstein Brite "Laconia". Marinequadrat FF 7721 310 Grad.
Leider mit 1500 italienischen Kriegsgefangenen. Bisher 90 gefischt. 157 cbm.
19 Aale, Passat 3, erbitte Befehle.Sunk by Hartenstein British "Laconia". Grid
FF 7721 310 degrees. 

Unfortunately with 1,500 Italian POW's. Till now 90 fished. 157 cubic meters (oil). 19 
eels, trade wind 3, ask for orders.

Uncoded message     (sent on Sept 13, 0600 hours on 25 meters-frequency ): 

If any ship will assist the ship-wrecked 'Laconia'-crew, I will not attack
providing I am not being attacked by ship or air forces. I picked up 193 men.
4, 53 South, 11, 26 West. - German submarine. 

In the next days U-156 saved some 400 survivors, hold 200 on board and the
other 200 in lifeboats. On Sept 15, at 1130 hours U-506 under Kptlt Erich
Wrdemann arrived at the scene and continued to rescue the survivors. A few
hours later U-507 under Korvkpt. Harro Schacht and the Italian submarine
Cappellini also arrived. The boats headed for shore, towing the lifeboats
behind them and hundreds of survivors were both in and inside the U-boats
themselves. 

On Sept 16, at 1125 hours an American B-24 Liberator bomber operating from the
Ascension Island arrived at the scene where its pilot spotted the boats (which
at that time flew the Red Cross flag and were clearly not hostile to anyone).
The pilot radioed back to his base asking for instructions and was told to
attack at once which he did at 1232 hours, forcing the U-boats to cut the
lines to the life boats and submerge immediately, leaving hundreds of people
again struggling in the water. 

Thankfully this US intervention caused not as much loss of life as it could
have as shortly afterwards some neutral French warships from Dakar arrived at
the scene and started picking up survivors. Also many had been taken into the
U-boats themselves and were safe there (only because the bomber failed to sink
them though). Roughly 1500 survived the sinking. 

This incident prompted one of the most controversial order Dnitz ever issued,
usually known as the Laconia order today, it made it absolutely clear that no
U-boats were to take part in any rescue operations from that date and leave
any survivors in the sea. Up until that time U-boats had on very many
occasions helped the survivors of their victims with supplies, water,
directions to nearest land and so on. 

Laconia-Befehl (Laconia order)

1) Jegliche Rettungsversuche von Angehrigen versenkter Schiffe, also auch das
Auffischen Schwimmender und Anbordgabe auf Rettungs- boote, Aufrichten
gekenterter Rettungsboote, Abgabe von Nahrungsmitteln und Wasser haben zu
unterbleiben. Rettung widerspricht den primitivsten Forderungen der
Kriegsfhrung nach Vernichtung feindlicher Schiffe und deren Besatzungen. 

2) Die Befehle ber das Mitbringen von Kapitnen und Chefingenieuren bleiben
bestehen.

3) Schiffbrchige nur dann retten, wenn ihre Aussagen fr das Boot von
Wichtigkeit sind.

4) Bleibt hart. Denkt daran, das der Gegner bei seinen Bombenangriffen auf
deutsche Stdte keine Rcksicht auf Frauen und Kinder nimmt!

1) Every attempt to save survivors of sunken ships, also the fishing up of
swimming men and putting them on board lifeboats, the setup right of
overturned lifeboats, the handing over of food and water have be discontinued.
These rescues contradict the primary demands of warfare esp. the destruction
of enemy ships and their crews.

2) The orders concerning the bringing in of skippers and chief engineers stay
in effect.
 
3) Survivors are only to rescue, if their statements are important for the
boat.

4) Stay hard. Don't forget, that the enemy didn't take any regard for woman
and children when bombarding German towns.

This order was used as an excuse for the controversial conviction of Dnitz
for war crimes at Nremberg in 1946. Most sensible people agree that the
German U-boats fought hard but fair considering the situation and the US
submarine force fought with the same aggressiveness against japanese shipping
(and if anything the US subs were more unforgiving). Thus many say that Dnitz
was simply punished for being too efficient at his job and his U-boats having
been to much of a threat to allied shipping and the outcome of the war. Dnitz
served 11 years and 6 months in prison. 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1205
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, November 27 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1206



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Some Questions...biology and breeding and more...
Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)
Re: Some Questions...biology and breeding and more...
Re: various stuff (german uboats)
Commerce Raiding and the Law of War  (longish)
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
re- Imperial Conduct of Warfare
SS3 Missiles in HG....  Thoughts (LONG) 
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11
Re: Missile Sizes (Was Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:37:50 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Some Questions...biology and breeding and more...

>Ack! My assumptions were way off...
>
>I need to lower the number of colonists then...I'm trying to create a
>situation where the colonists would be worrying about breeding and such.
>The basis is that the mission originally had enough breeding adults, but
>that an accident in transit killed a significant portion of them. Thus the
>survivors need to do some clever stuff to survive. But I assumed that the
>numbers would be higher...so I need to change things a bit. Not a problem,
>and I'm glad I asked before finishing up.
>
>The scenario is this:
>  The colonization mission consists of C adult colonists (age 20 to 40) and
>E embryos, all frozen. During the mission, a significant percentage of the
>adult colonists (say 80-90%) die in hibernation due to an accident.
>
>  Eventually, the colonists arrive and are awoken to learn that the
>majority of their numbers have not made it. In order to bolster the
>population, the majority of the women that can carry children are
>_required_ to bear many children. In order to keep jealousy down, each
>woman is not required to bear the children of any colonist except her
>husband/lover - however, for every child that is "natural", they also carry
>one of the embryos to term. This encourages diversity. A problem that
>occurs is that of workforce - a lot of people died, so some labor is lost.
>The colony picks up the slack by relying on robotics. Indeed, many of the
>children are raised by primitive nanny-bots (under supervision, of
>course...the bots are rather stupid).
>
>  Comments? Any idea what kind of numbers I'm looking at? And what kind of
>population this world might have in 600 years?
>


Other then the tech bit, sounds good.
On the tech, it sounds like you my have some big holes in trained pers. Sure
you have info on all the things to be done, but who knows what it means
(I.e. car engines, who know how to fix when broken or understand in detail
the info on how to fix them). So I can see a tech drop at first then a slow
rebuild. For a good example read C.J.Cnerryh's "Forty Thousand in Gehenna".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:59:58 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )

DustyLV769@aol.com
 writes:
> 	This would be a hard call...there is documented proof that both the
Japanese
> Navy and the United States Navy killed survivors of ship sinkings during
WW2
> (at the Battle of Midway, a Dauntless crew was picked up, interrogated,
and
> tossed overboard with filled water cans tied to them.  I cannot remember
the
> details of the US incident, but it was a submarine crew who
machine-gunned
> Japanese survivors.  I remember not being able to believe it, but it
> apparently was confirmed.  The Navy discharged the captain of the sub
quietly)
> There was also a German U-boat captain tried and convicted of killing
sinking
> survivors, but I seem to recall there was no definate proof it actually
> happened.  Everyone knows that the war-crimes trials had nothing to do
with
> justice.
> 
> DustyLV769

I've been trying to avoid responding to this thread, but...

Actually there are lots of documented allied war crimes.  

Apparently there was lots of "not taking prisoners" happening in the
Pacific theatre, particularly after rumours about what was happening in the
Japanese POW camps started leaking out.  The "suicidal desperation" of
Japanese troops was PARTLY a result of this.  Both US and particularly
Australian troops were involved in this.

There were TWO Sandakan "death marches".  The second was a payback for the
first.

After news/rumours of the Malmedy massacre, and other SS atrocities in the
Ardennes, spread, US troops engaged in a number of paybacks.

Not pretty, but apparently true.

Relevance to Traveller:  Atrocities and war crimes breed atrocities and war
crimes.  Mercenary (CT) differentiated between "good wars" and "bad wars". 
This is the difference.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:10:26 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

I wanted to stay out of this one, too, but...

Look, I'm quite OK about people having the odd rant.  It means that I can
expect a bit of slack when I go off the deep end.

A deal:  If people promise not to do Christmas rants, I won't do one on
"Late Roman Paganism and Standard Religious Holidays".

As for Thanksgiving:  a good way to approach it would have been to outline
the true (not sanitised) history of the Mayflower landing, and draw
analogies to Terran settlement of Vilani worlds at the end of the
Interstellar Wars.  There's a scenario there:  Plagues, slavery,
hi-jacking, new foodstuffs....

Cheers,
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:15:25 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)

David P. Summers wrote:

> Another problem with clones is the time it takes to grow them.
> I haven't heard anything explicitly mentioned in canon, but I
> guess it is assumed that the Imperium has technology that can allow
> you to grow a clone to adulthood w/out having to wait 18 years.
> 

I don't see any basis for this assumption.  The various nobles are cloned
in infancy, according to Regency Sourcebook.  I would have thought in utero
would be better (ie before they are born).

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:21:58 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Some Questions...biology and breeding and more...

Andrew Akins wrote:

> The scenario is this:
>   The colonization mission consists of C adult colonists (age 20 to 40) and
> E embryos, all frozen. During the mission, a significant percentage of the
> adult colonists (say 80-90%) die in hibernation due to an accident.

Having a large number of embryos will greatly reduce any danger from
inbreeding.  If one woman brings an embryo and her own natural child
to term, those two can later reproduce without any problem at all.

Since you're dealing with what I gather is TL9, genetic manipulation
should be available to further minimize dangers of inbreeding, though
you could easily have the genetic experts die in the accident.

>   Eventually, the colonists arrive and are awoken to learn that the
> majority of their numbers have not made it. In order to bolster the
> population, the majority of the women that can carry children are
> _required_ to bear many children.

Is there some kind of persistent danger from the environment
that requires such a large and continuous population growth?
IMHO, if women are required to birth more than two children,
you need some pressing extermal reason to do so.  Else, the
colony would grow at whatever level is appropriate/natural.

FWIW, fertility rates tend to be high in the face of bad times.
High infant mortality presses cultures to have more babies so
that enough will survive to keep the society viable.  When
the source of that mortality is removed, fertility rates tend to
go down, albeit slowly.  Also, when a society is experiencing
relatively good times (good economy, lots of food, life expectancy
good, etc.), they tend to marry later and don't give birth until
later in life, and birth much fewer children.  When times are
rough, people marry younger and have more children earlier.


> In order to keep jealousy down, each
> woman is not required to bear the children of any colonist except her
> husband/lover - however, for every child that is "natural", they also carry
> one of the embryos to term. This encourages diversity. A problem that
> occurs is that of workforce - a lot of people died, so some labor is lost.
> The colony picks up the slack by relying on robotics. Indeed, many of the
> children are raised by primitive nanny-bots (under supervision, of
> course...the bots are rather stupid).
>
>   Comments? Any idea what kind of numbers I'm looking at? And what kind of
> population this world might have in 600 years?

Given the numbers that some have already posted, I think you
can shoose your population size.  In that amount of time,
I think its reasonable to say that all habitable land might be
occupied to some extent (with population density being centered
upon the initial colony placement and radiating along lines
easy travel and trade - coastlines, rivers, valleys, etc.-- secondary
population centers at geographical desirable locations).

I think the real question is why does the population need to grow
so much for so long?  Especially given the tech level?  Cultural
drive?  Environmental dangers?  Predators?  I think in the absence
of a long-term danger to the population (A Malthusian Death Check),
there is no need to grow the population is such a manner.  Even
religious reasons for doing so would doubtlessly change over the
time period you've outlined.  600 years is a long time.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:26:38 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: various stuff (german uboats)

In a message dated 11/27/98 6:33:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
RSpake2064@aol.com writes:

<< comeing form someone like me that might sound hipicritical since i feel
taht
 my actions in the Gulf War where i killed the children that an iraqi sniper
 was useing as a human shield.  to me this action was a war crime, and i
should
 ahve been tried for it instead of getting patted on the back and told good
 job.
 
 richard >>

I don't know why you are tormenting yourself. That a-----e you were fighting
wouldn't have gave a s--t for you. It's HIS fault those kids are dead. I hope
you sent him to paradise.... Thanks for your service to the country. PS: I
can't see a court convicting you on this one...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:33:42 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Commerce Raiding and the Law of War  (longish)

RSpake2064@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> 
> This order was used as an excuse for the controversial conviction of Dnitz
> for war crimes at Nremberg in 1946. Most sensible people agree that the
> German U-boats fought hard but fair considering the situation and the US
> submarine force fought with the same aggressiveness against japanese shipping
> (and if anything the US subs were more unforgiving). Thus many say that Dnitz
> was simply punished for being too efficient at his job and his U-boats having
> been to much of a threat to allied shipping and the outcome of the war. Dnitz
> served 11 years and 6 months in prison.

Fortunately for Admiral Doenitz, Admiral Nimitz (Commander-in-Chief, US
Pacific Fleet) "probably saved the life of Grand-Admiral Karl Doenitz at
the Nuremberg trials by sending a statement to the court confirming that
the Pacific Fleet had waged unrestricted submarine warfare against Japan
from day one of hostilities...."  [van der Vat, _The Pacific Campaign: 
The U.S.-Japanese Naval War 1941-1945_, Simon & Schuster, 1991, pg. 150]

ObTrav:  What impact do any interstellar Conventions Regarding Conduct
of Armed Forces During Time of War have on a commerce raiding strategy? 
After all, in fleet actions, one has an incentive to avoid obliterating
crippled enemy ships.  If one holds the field of battle, the enemy
cripples are valuable both intrinsically and as inteligence sources.  If
one appears unlikely to hold the field, destroying enemy cripples is
more likely to result in atrocities against the ships _you'll_ have to
leave behind.  OTOH, commerce raiders have the following limitations:

	1.  They operate behind enemy lines, and thus have less to gain from
sparing enemy cripples.

	2.  Because they are operating behind enemy lines, commerce raiders
must strike and scoot, to avoid being knocked out by enemy escort and
patrol ships.

	3.  They can only succeed in their mission if they prevent cargoes from
reaching their destination.  Unless they have the time to board and loot
their victims, this can only be achieved by destruction of their
targets.

	4.  Since space is even more inhospitable than the ocean (at least the
South Pacific, where survivors were routinely found days after a
sinking), destruction of a ship generally means the death of most, if
not all, of its crew and passengers.

	5.  Commerce raiders may well be privateers, whose status under the Law
of War would have to be clarified.  Regular Navy vessels used as
commerce raiders may have problems if the status of privateers is
different from their own.

Your input is appreciated.
	
- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:39:21 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

>As for Thanksgiving:  a good way to approach it would have been to outline
>the true (not sanitised) history of the Mayflower landing, and draw
>analogies to Terran settlement of Vilani worlds at the end of the
>Interstellar Wars.  There's a scenario there:  Plagues, slavery,
>hi-jacking, new foodstuffs....


Hmmm...  Actually the true and the sanitized versions of the Mayflower
landing aren't extremely different. It's what began to happen afterwards
that was the problem, especially around about the time the U.S. government
got all crazy with the "manifest destiny" stuff, well over a century later.

How about you think about what you're saying before you presume to tell
those of us in America "what really happened" when you're on the other side
of the globe?

Has your government always been kind and beneficial to the aboriginal
peoples of your country? I'm assuming from your address that you're from
Australia, if not I apologize.

What's past is past. I don't know if anyone else on this list is descended
from American Indian folks, but I know that I chowed down hardcore on turkey
and had a fantastic Thanksgiving here in the U.S., and I read the
Thanksgiving post and found it interesting. However, I'm not a fan of
Babylon 5, I ignored those posts and moved on. I'm sure I'm not the only one
on this list that doesn't watch the show. In all reality, B5 has about as
much to do with Traveller as the Thanksgiving post had. You can say, "it's
sci-fi" or "well, it's kind of like Traveller", but it's not Traveller...
NOT TRAVELLER. That's it. Period.

So do either one of two things:

1.) Go after all off-topic posts with the same gusto (that is, everything
that is not directly Traveller related; musings on muses, WWII atrocities,
etc.)

2.) Shut up. I rarely say this so bluntly, but I'm very agitated. Many of
you out there have contributed to off-topic discussions, or started them
yourselves (or turned a legit Traveller discussion "off-course" in another
non-Traveller related direction). Cut others the same slack that they will
(or have already) cut you on the past.

Basically, what I'm getting at is: if someone is going to express their
silly American holiday greetings in an interesting way, I have no problem
with that. If any of you folks out there from other countries want to post
silly Holiday greetings for any of your holidays that's fine too...

When Princess Diana passed away, and some thoughtful American folks
expressed their sympathy to the British folks on the list, there wasn't a
string of "that's off-topic and doesn't belong here" posts following it.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:55:34 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: re- Imperial Conduct of Warfare

since we started talking about War Crimes and Atrocities, it made me think of
the offical Conduct of Warfare codes that the Thrid Imperium would follow, or
would they follow one at all?

i imagine that the 3rd Imperium would profess to follow a certin code to
warfare, but that code would be dropped when ever one of the parts of the
imperium decides to suceed and try to go off on its own (ie the various
Pacification campaigns, Ilelish revolt, the Solomani rim war, Julian war) all
bets are off.  I see the Imps at playing a no-holds barred in the suppression
of the rebellious element..

any ideas on how the Imps would set up rules of engagement and handle warfare?

richard

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:16:39 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: SS3 Missiles in HG....  Thoughts (LONG) 

        So, here is our problem....  If you take a look at the most extreme
example of a missile under the SS3 rules, we see a few things fairly readily:

        O/______________________
        O\
        TL 11 Star Lance        (Planet-based, Silo-lauched SSTH ("Single
Stage To Hell") 1-shot-ship-wrecker.  When you absolutely, positively gotta
annhiliate the captial ship of that invasion fleet before asking them to
surrender....)
        20G68 Discretionary Burning Motor, Neutrino Homing Guidance, 'Smart'
Fused , 10Kton yeild Fusion Warhead, 738kg Cr98,247,700
        The TL 11 Star Lance does a minimum of 1000 Hits plus 200 Radiation
Hits on detonation.
        O/______________________
        O\

        1)  If the Star Lance hits, 1000 hits is extremely overkill vs even
a capital ship.  Even at USP 1.  If you presume that 50% of the 2d+6-6 rolls
will be 7: Fuel -3, you've got a ship that is now Fuel:-1500.  That's a kill.
        2)  A fighter *can* carry the Star Lance.  Picture a squadron of 30
fighters each firing these at your TCS.
        3)  Each weapon is USP 1.  Horribly, Horribly Frightening USP 1, but
USP 1, nonetheless.  So, that means that vs a captial ship, with beam
weapons, sand, repulsors and dampners, you've just wasted 30 x MCr90 =
MCr2700, or, say, the purchase price to buy a "Midu Agashaam"-class
destroyer from Supp9.

        4)  That means that you don't shoot down fighters with your DD's
secondary weapons, you shoot down missiles.  However, that relegates
fighters to the "annoyance" category in warfare, where in RealWorld(tm), a
fighter launching an Exocet (or clone thereof) is a major concern to folks
on things like aircraft carriers.  Even heavy cruisers.  I believe the USS
Iowa is exempt from the effects of anything smaller than Harpoons.

        5)  If you use the optional fighter-salvo rules, that means that you
get a MCr2700 USP 9 salvo from the fighters.  So, that means, vs a fully
stacked and scared-stiff DD (USP 9 everything), we need a 2+ to hit, a 5+ to
pen beam, a 5+ to pen sand, 15+ to pen repulsor, and a 10+ to pen Nuclear
Dampners....  still no threat to the capital ship.
        Remove the repulsors (for whatever reason) and the stat odds of a
hit are ~4%, so 1 shot will hit  out of every 25 salvoes and obliterate the
capital ship, unless they have Armor-20.  Our 25 salvoes cost us about
BCr67.50, or about 20% the cost of a "Tigress" class DD from Supp9;  the
Tigress has Armor-15, meaning our 1000 hits will scour the hull of all
weapons and gut her fuel tanks - a kill.

        6)  On a buck vs buck exchange, how about we attack a "Midu
Agashaam" with our figher squadron...  USP 4 Lasers, USP 3 Sand, USP 4
Dampers.   That is a 2+, 0+, 0+, 5+, giving ~69% hit rate, so it will cost
us MCr3510, on average to obliterate our MCr2700 destroyer.  (BTW, I will
make a point here in a sec, bear with me ;)

        7) So, for *extreme* missile systems, the odds of return on
investment aren't great.  Even more "reasonable" weapons like the TL 9
TigerStar (12 hits) I posted @ KCr26 aren't all that great.  Vs our Tigress,
best possible damage roll is 2+6+15=23, no effect.  Every less than DD-sized
vessel is going to be panicking about the missile salvo, but your kill ratio
won't be hot.
        It will whale the crap out of our "Midu A"; better odds of hitting
since not affected by dampers, but best damage result is 2+6=8, weapon-3.
So, by bell curve, we'd most likely roll 5 Wpn-2 and 7 Fuel-1;  scour the
weapons off the hull and prevent her from jumping to escape.  Of course,
it'd only cost us less than MCr1 to disable the "Midu A".

        Conclusions (I told you I'd get to them ;):
        If you use the SS3 rules for missiles, IMHO you have to do one of
three things:
                1)  Forget you ever thought about using SS3 with HG.
                2)  Accept that nuclear weapons are only cost effective if
fired en-masse against mid-sized targets where the cost of (salvo * inverse
prob of kill) is less than the value of the target.  Non-nuclear weapons are
for trashing small stuff (less than light cruiser) to get it out of the way
quickly, but fighters can deliver these kills *cheaply*.
                3)  Mod the hell out of the missile combat rules as follows:
                        a)  Square root the number of hits delievered, round
normally.  1- = 1.
                                Star Lance is SQRT(1000)=31.6 = 32.
                                TigerStar is SQRT(12)=3.46 = 4.
                        b)  "Top Off" the USP of a single missle.
                                1 Star Lance becomes USP 9, with 24 points
left over.
                                1 TigerStar becomes USP 5, with 0 points
left over.
                        c)  Square root the number of points left over,
round normally.  This is the -DM on the damage effects table.  The missile
will always score one hit on a successful to-hit.
                                1 Star Lance, then would score 1 hit, with a
DM of -5 on the table.  So, best possible roll for this Nuke vs Tigeress
would be 2-6-5+15=6, which is a resounding Manuever-2, and only 1 point
higer than an Internal Explosion result.  Scaaaary stuff for our DD Captain.
                                1 TigerStar would score a total of 1 hit,
with no DM.
                        d)  The net result is that smaller missiles are more
accurate, but no more dangerous, and monster nukes are very accurate and
still fairly damaging but not 1-shot-ship-wreckers normally.  This is in
keeping with the List's concensus that direct hits are Bad News while a big
enough pile of TNT even far away will cause anybody grief.  
                        When you add the SS3 rules governing impact speed (1
hit per 30,000km of vector, or each 3G's of V) and double-damage for actual
"gosh I hit the hull" results, then I think it works nicely.  It puts bite
back into fighters, validating the idea of Carriers at all.  One fighter
carrying a very affordable TigerStar can take a piece out of a "Mid A"
without flaring it; a 1/2 dozen fighters and our destroyer captain is going
to have to decide how many of his precious beam lasers does he want to use
verses the fighters and how many in reserve vs the missiles they may get to
fire.
                        One fighter or planet-based silo firing a Star Lance
is going to get the attention of every ship driver in the OpFor fleet.  A
carrier launching every fighter it has, armed with Star Lances, is now the
most dangerous ship in the system.  Which means the OpFor DD's will need to
have thier own fighter screen to intercept the attacking fighters while they
work the Carrier over.  I.e.:  It will resemble RealWorld(tm) naval
doctrine.  And planetary domination is now not so much a given, with a Star
Lance able to haul out to ~2/3 of a light second in *one* round and can burn
for a total of three rounds.  The planet's deep meson sites are still
warming up waiting for the OpFor to get within 50,000km while the Star Lance
silos are vaporizing every support ship and light cruiser in the OpFor fleet.

        Sorry about the length of this post.  I was working it out as I was
typing, so 1/2 that is litterally what I was doing with my LBL's and
calculator as I went along.  Comments and "pointing out the obvious that I
missed" remarks are always welcome.  I *think* I'll be using option #3 IMTU,
because it gives the "feel" I want;  B5/ Star Wars/ BSG "Fighters Are An Issue".

        Regards,
           Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:48:51 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

This is my second and last post on the topic.  I will, of course, read any
replies - I just won't respond to them.  Flame wars aren't interesting.

I got into this issue mainly after receiving other posts about it from
other lists.

- ----------
> From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
> Date: Saturday, 28 November 1998 13:39
> 
> >As for Thanksgiving:  a good way to approach it would have been to outline
> >the true (not sanitised) history of the Mayflower landing, and draw
> >analogies to Terran settlement of Vilani worlds at the end of the
> >Interstellar Wars.  There's a scenario there:  Plagues, slavery,
> >hi-jacking, new foodstuffs....
> 
> 
> Hmmm...  Actually the true and the sanitized versions of the Mayflower
> landing aren't extremely different. It's what began to happen afterwards
> that was the problem, especially around about the time the U.S. government
> got all crazy with the "manifest destiny" stuff, well over a century
later.
> 

Other historians disagree...

> How about you think about what you're saying before you presume to tell
> those of us in America "what really happened" when you're on the other side
> of the globe?
> 

I didn't.  The point is that official history and actual history are often
different, and official history is often nasty and useless propoganda.
 
> Has your government always been kind and beneficial to the aboriginal
> peoples of your country? I'm assuming from your address that you're from
> Australia, if not I apologize.
> 

I'm well aware of Australian history.  A lot of the massacres weren't
actually carried out by the government.  There are no known descendants of
the original owners of the area where my "home town" is located.  It's not
even known for certain what language they spoke.

> What's past is past. 

Not until there's justice....  Sorry, the Irish bit of my ancestry is
showing... :)

I don't know if anyone else on this list is descended
> from American Indian folks, but I know that I chowed down hardcore on turkey
> and had a fantastic Thanksgiving here in the U.S., and I read the
> Thanksgiving post and found it interesting. However, I'm not a fan of
> Babylon 5, I ignored those posts and moved on. I'm sure I'm not the only one
> on this list that doesn't watch the show. In all reality, B5 has about as
> much to do with Traveller as the Thanksgiving post had. You can say, "it's
> sci-fi" or "well, it's kind of like Traveller", but it's not Traveller...
> NOT TRAVELLER. That's it. Period.
> 
> So do either one of two things:
> 
> 1.) Go after all off-topic posts with the same gusto (that is, everything
> that is not directly Traveller related; musings on muses, WWII atrocities,
> etc.)
> 
> 2.) Shut up. I rarely say this so bluntly, but I'm very agitated. Many of
> you out there have contributed to off-topic discussions, or started them
> yourselves (or turned a legit Traveller discussion "off-course" in another
> non-Traveller related direction). Cut others the same slack that they
will
> (or have already) cut you on the past.
> 
> Basically, what I'm getting at is: if someone is going to express their
> silly American holiday greetings in an interesting way, I have no problem
> with that. If any of you folks out there from other countries want to post
> silly Holiday greetings for any of your holidays that's fine too...
> 

I started my previous post by expressing my opinion that people are
entitled to the odd rant.  I have no particular problem with the original
post either.

> When Princess Diana passed away, and some thoughtful American folks
> expressed their sympathy to the British folks on the list, there wasn't a
> string of "that's off-topic and doesn't belong here" posts following it.
> 
> Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )

I'm not going to touch that with a stick! :)

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:42:14 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11

At 08:15 PM 27/11/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 11/27/98 3:14:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>DustyLV769@aol.com writes:
>
><< Missile magazines are almost a footnote in MegaTrav starship design...put
> very simply (because MT uses kiloliters, HG uses tons) I would say a single
> missile takes up .1 tons of space per missile...buy mag space for enough fire
> for 10-20 rds of fire.  But remember:  a battery-round for a triple turret is
> 3 missiles; a battery-round for a 50-ton turret is 50 missiles, and 100
> missiles for a 100-ton bay.)
> 
> 	DustyLV769 >>
>
>Ed; do the racks still have the 3 round on mount capacity in addition to any
>magazine space purchased?
>
>BTW; let me know if you run into any spare SS3 missile supplements. Happy
>Thanksgiving...
>
>Seth

        From SS3 (Pullout from JTAS #21):

        "MISSILE STORAGE
     "Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two
additional missiles
    ready for future game turns. The role of the gunner in the turret is to
aim and fire the
    weaponry in the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are
exhausted, the gunner
    must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new missiles into
the racks and still
    operate the weaponry in a game turn.
     "The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it.
Once these missiles
    have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried
elsewhere in the ship
    (usually in the cargo hold).
     "Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn
interphase. If the
    gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the
turret in the next game
    turn. It is possible for non-gunner crewmembers who are not otherwise
engaged to perform
    restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one game turn."

        Ever wonder what the Marines on board are doing in combat when a
ship is not being boarded?  Humping missiles via cargo dolleys to bays and
turrets to ensure nobody "runs dry"....
        This paragraph has big implications... The gunner fires and slots
the next tube onto the rack... still three tubes on the rack...  Marine
hauls another missile up from the mag....  still 12 missile in the "Ready
Use" hopper....  Missle rack *never* gets caught with a "reload" phase where
it cannot fire.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:46:27 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Missile Sizes (Was Re: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class"

At 08:57 PM 27/11/98 EST, you wrote:
>Dear Sir:
>
>You don't happen to have a spare copy of the missile supplement for sale?
>
>Seth
>

        Hi, Seth...  No, I don't   I was't even aware I had *this* copy
until I was looking for something else in a JTAS and tripped over it.  It's
a pull-out in JTAS #21;  if you can find some old JTAS....
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1206
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Saturday, November 28 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1207



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Commerce Raiding and the Law of War  (longish)
Re: Missiles in Traveller
Re: Kinda off topic - WW2 sub stuff
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)
Re: various stuff (german uboats)
Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: Some Questions...
Re: Thanksgiving (USA) 
Re: various stuff (german uboats) 
Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
Re: Off Topic:  last B5
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting
re: B5 Spoilers are Justified!
Re: Non-ship Gearheadedness
re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper" 8^)
Re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper"8^) 
Re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper"8^) 
Re: From the Friday night game
Re: What'

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:56:49 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Commerce Raiding and the Law of War  (longish)

At 09:33 PM 27/11/98 -0600, you wrote:

>ObTrav:  What impact do any interstellar Conventions Regarding Conduct
>of Armed Forces During Time of War have on a commerce raiding strategy? 
>After all, in fleet actions, one has an incentive to avoid obliterating
>crippled enemy ships.  If one holds the field of battle, the enemy
>cripples are valuable both intrinsically and as inteligence sources.  If
>one appears unlikely to hold the field, destroying enemy cripples is
>more likely to result in atrocities against the ships _you'll_ have to
>leave behind.  OTOH, commerce raiders have the following limitations:
>
>	1.  They operate behind enemy lines, and thus have less to gain from
>sparing enemy cripples.
>
>	2.  Because they are operating behind enemy lines, commerce raiders
>must strike and scoot, to avoid being knocked out by enemy escort and
>patrol ships.
>
>	3.  They can only succeed in their mission if they prevent cargoes from
>reaching their destination.  Unless they have the time to board and loot
>their victims, this can only be achieved by destruction of their
>targets.
>
>	4.  Since space is even more inhospitable than the ocean (at least the
>South Pacific, where survivors were routinely found days after a
>sinking), destruction of a ship generally means the death of most, if
>not all, of its crew and passengers.
>
>	5.  Commerce raiders may well be privateers, whose status under the Law
>of War would have to be clarified.  Regular Navy vessels used as
>commerce raiders may have problems if the status of privateers is
>different from their own.
>
>Your input is appreciated.
>	

        This is a point I am trying to work out in my TNEC game...  Remember
that great scene at the end of "The Three Musketeers" where D'Artagnan gives
Richelu the note saying "The bearer of this note has acted on my behalf for
the good of France -- Richeleu" (or some such)?
        I figure that is *exactly* what commerce raiding is written up like.
Check out the "Serpent" class Attack/Raider on my web page... 0 cargo...  it
*kills* frieghters and escorts...  the crews are operating on behalf of the
Corporate benefactor who is paying them by the ton of flared hull.  When the
crew gets caught (presuming survivors), they are repatirated and the CORP
that hired them is on the hook.  So long as thier actions were within the
contracted orders.
        Now, the Navy views a Privateer as a Pirate with good lawyers...
and treat them appropriately (not many Serpent crews seem to survive loosing
a bad scrap with a UN-DSN/ NSN ship, for some reason).  Now, when things
change in the next year or two of game time and all of a sudden the Terran
Sphere is at war, Privateers going after OpFor shipping are going to be
*helping* the DSN a lot...  And they'll be treated appropriately.  
        To the OpFor...  a commerce raider is a commerce raider.  He his
affecting thier strategic ability to conduct warfare, and has to be handled
like a real threat.  Regardless if he is DSN or Terran Merc.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:44:52
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Missiles in Traveller

Up until the invention of the torpedo (and it's cousins, the bomb and
air-to-surface missile), small ships just didnt fight big ships. In
Napoleonic naval warfare, frigates did their thing, and stayed the hell
away from the line of battle.

Now, once the torpedo got invented, you got torpdeo boats, torpedo boat
destroyers to kill them, light cruisers to kill the destroyers,
battlecruisers to kill the light cruisers, and so on.

We are seeing a similar process in modern warfare, except that 'capital'
ships are using helicopters with small ASMs to deal with gunboats with big
ASMs.

Now, if we invent a torpedo in Traveller, then a similar process will happen.

You will get ships mounting more laser turrets, and you will get more
anti-missile missiles. Rapid-fire laser turrets would also come into vogue
- - check Striker out for a set of rules on rapid-fire lasers.

You will get fighter-destroyers - probably other fighters, carrying small
anti-fighter and anti-missile missiles. Talk to a SFB player who plays
Klingons, and ask them about counter-drone work (SFB missiles arent
ship-killers per se, but big missiles come close).

Cutting EW into the mix probably disadvatages the fighters - a big EW array
on a ship could probably overwhelm the EW resources on a small fighter
(High Guard extroplates EW and sensors into the Computer package).

In short, while I think that missiles are useful for use by and against
auxilaries and civilians, they arent terrifically useful as weapons in the
main line of battle.

Now, if a 1500 dtn ship is a battlewagon, and you are at TL11 and thus dont
have nuke dampers, then a wing of 30 fighters is something to fear. But as
the arms race escalates, and technology refines, then I believe missiles
will become more and more a secondary weapon, no matter how much they hurt
when they hit.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 16:12:42
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Kinda off topic - WW2 sub stuff

>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
>
>In a message dated 11/27/98 3:44:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>DustyLV769@aol.com writes:
>
>Don't forget that the British machine gunned the crew of U-110 after they
>surrendered. 

I would class this as slander against Commander Baker-Cresswell, who had
ordered the guns of HMS Bulldog to cease fire. A junior officer continued
to fire a light machinegun, and some of the men followed suit.

But it was in the confusion of a night engagement, and against orders.

The British searched her and found the naval codes (somehow the
>German crew forgot to throw them overboard in the confusion). The British
>realized the gold mine they had and drew the obvious conclusion about dead men
>not talking....This is a blatant war crime (and one condoned by senior
>officers), but I'm glad they did it, as this really crushed the Kriegsmarine
>(besides, I still hold a grudge). 

Survivors from U-110 were also taken aboard the Aubrieta and the Broadway.

Again, the story that the British ordered prisoners killed to conceal the
fact the RN had captured a submarine intact is pure slander. Hell, if I
remember reading Churchill's letters correctly, he was planning to
commission U-110 into the RN with as much publicity as possible !

The British had been cracking Enigma for a while (the Poles started it, and
had passed a reconstructed machine along in '39). The codes helped, but it
was the techniques and machines developed at Bletchley Park and elsewhere
that were the real key - the keys captured on the weather ship Munchen and
the U-110 degraded over time, but the techniques developed allowed the
later 4-rotor Enigma machine to be cracked.

In short, I would recommed Kahn's book 'Seizing the Enigma' (Arrow, 1991).


>From: RSpake2064@aol.com
>Subject: Re: various stuff (german uboats)
>
>In a message dated 98-11-27 20:10:32 EST, you write:
>
><< You are referring to Eck of U-852, but Donitz' instruction 154, written in
> November 1939, ordered crews to 'Rescue no one and take no-one with you.
> Have no care for the ships boats'.  >>
>
>yes these orders came about after a German U-boat accidently sank a civilian
>ship, and called every German Uboat in the Med to help rescue the surviours.
>The Laconia Incident caused this infamous order (this became known in the
>Kreigsmarine as the Lacondia Order, i have it posted below)
>

Ummm, Keegan's 'The Price of Admirality' is my reference for instruction
154 being November '39. The below is referring to a 1942 incident ... 

>Radio message from U-156 to BdU (sent on Sept 13, 0125 hours ): 
>
>Versenkt von Hartenstein Brite "Laconia". Marinequadrat FF 7721 310 Grad.
>Leider mit 1500 italienischen Kriegsgefangenen. Bisher 90 gefischt. 157 cbm.
>19 Aale, Passat 3, erbitte Befehle.Sunk by Hartenstein British "Laconia".
Grid
>FF 7721 310 degrees. 
>
>Unfortunately with 1,500 Italian POW's. Till now 90 fished. 157 cubic meters
>(oil). 19 
>eels, trade wind 3, ask for orders.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:50:14 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

>>Yes, you do.  You can come up with routes for such couriers that
>>leave out most systems (even compared to X-boat routes).  Also,
>>I doubt the Imperium is going to be sending a jump-6 courier
>>every few days for routine traffic.  Instead, I can see them
>>being around to be used for the occaison high priority message.

>The *Imperium* probably wont. Imperial corporations, on the other hand

[An example of a specific route, chosen to exagerate the
difference between jump-6 and jump-4, deleted.  Effate is
exactly jump-6 from Regina and the Xboat isn't efficiently
routed between them.  If you are going to postule a general
jump-6 system of courier that shadows the X-boats, you are
going to have to make the same compromises about crossing
distance, vs hitting intermediate stops, etc.]

On average, jump-6 will save 33% over jump 4.  It will this mean
basically duplicating the cost of the X-boat network and more
(the cost of J6 boats vs J4).  I don't think any corp is going
to want messages a bit faster that bad.  Instead, I can see
that the corps that are big enough, have a few jump-6 courier
in key places to take the really important messages, and little
more.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:12:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)

"Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au> wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:

>> Another problem with clones is the time it takes to grow them.
>> I haven't heard anything explicitly mentioned in canon, but I
>> guess it is assumed that the Imperium has technology that can allow
>> you to grow a clone to adulthood w/out having to wait 18 years.
> 
> I don't see any basis for this assumption.  The various nobles are cloned
> in infancy, according to Regency Sourcebook.  I would have thought in utero
> would be better (ie before they are born).

Actually in MT there was definite info about cloning times.  This was
discussed in detail by Digest Group in TD #12 & 14and in less detail in
GDW's MT Referee's Companion. 

Cloning a person (or animal) is TL 9
10x Growth Quickening (ie 0-18 in 1.8 years) is TL 10
x50 Growth Quickening is TL 12
x100 Growth quickening is TL 13
Cloning individual body parts (a new eye, arm, leg, spleen) 
is also TL 13, and growth quickening can be used on them too.
(the adult parts are then surgically attached).

On a related note:

Regrowing body parts by stimulating the body to regrow a new arm, eye...
is TL 9, but it takes months to years (depending on the size of the new
part).  10x growth quickening speeds this (3 weeks for a eye to 3 months
for a new leg, but using any of the more rapid forms of growth quickening
requires that the patient be on full life support for the duration (then
again they can grow you a new leg in a week at TL 13). 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:56:04 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: various stuff (german uboats)

>From: RSpake2064@aol.com
>Subject: Re: various stuff (german uboats)
...
>This order was used as an excuse for the controversial conviction of Dnitz
>for war crimes at Nremberg in 1946. Most sensible people agree that the
>German U-boats fought hard but fair considering the situation and the US
>submarine force fought with the same aggressiveness against japanese shipping
...

  Interestingly, the British legal system came fairly close to formulating
a doctrine this past week that may have meant that Doenitz (as Hitlers
successor as head of state) wouldn't have been liable to be held responsible
for any of his actions (well, responsible, but not answerable to any foreign
legal sanction).

  Wouldn't that tick off your typical Trav gang of terrorists, er, PC's,
sent to off some ex-dictator enjoying his ill-gotten gains, only to find
that the Imperial authorities consider him to be an all-round swell guy
and deserving of wall to wall security?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:56:13 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

...
>As for Thanksgiving:  a good way to approach it would have been to outline
>the true (not sanitised) history of the Mayflower landing, and draw
...

  No turkey tripods with heat-rays? :(

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 02:04:32 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Some Questions...

>From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>Subject: Re: Some Questions...biology and breeding and more...
...
>FWIW, fertility rates tend to be high in the face of bad times.
>High infant mortality presses cultures to have more babies so
>that enough will survive to keep the society viable.  When
>the source of that mortality is removed, fertility rates tend to
>go down, albeit slowly.  Also, when a society is experiencing
>relatively good times (good economy, lots of food, life expectancy
>good, etc.), they tend to marry later and don't give birth until
>later in life, and birth much fewer children.  When times are
>rough, people marry younger and have more children earlier.

  The above is probably an over-simplification specific to the last
century or two. In typical pre-industrial agricultural societies
"good times" leads to population growth, and this trend seems to 
carry over into early industrial societies. In subsistence or small-
holding agriculture (e.g. early modern France) it's due to lack of
economic opportunity that marriage (and thus child-bearing*) is delayed.

 * well, except in places like Brittany, or so I understand :)

  High mortality necessitates high fertility, but the rest gets
awfully complicated.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 04:23:55 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA) 

> ...
> >As for Thanksgiving:  a good way to approach it would have been to outline
> >the true (not sanitised) history of the Mayflower landing, and draw
> ...
> 
>   No turkey tripods with heat-rays? :(

Turkeys, being bipedal, would use bipedal walkers, whouldn't they?  Not 
tripods, right?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 04:29:39 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: various stuff (german uboats) 

>   Wouldn't that tick off your typical Trav gang of terrorists, er, PC's,
> sent to off some ex-dictator enjoying his ill-gotten gains, only to find
> that the Imperial authorities consider him to be an all-round swell guy
> and deserving of wall to wall security?

Kinda reminds me about that post earlier this summer about a planetary Navy 
that skipped out when the Old Regime got overthrown.  I could see them renting 
out the skipped boats as star mercs to support the Government in Exile, who 
the PCs are supposed to hit...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I see a folio plot coming up here...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:19:53 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )

At 12:59 28/11/98 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:

>Relevance to Traveller:  Atrocities and war crimes breed atrocities and war
>crimes.  Mercenary (CT) differentiated between "good wars" and "bad wars". 
>This is the difference.

My Classics Lecturer, who was an interrogator in the Rhodesian Army, once
said "In a war nobody's hands stay clean, no matter which side they're on."
To mymind this sums things up perfectly.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:39:41 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Off Topic:  last B5

>(On Topic) How many have used snipits from B5 as inspiration/plot
devices
>in your campaigns.



Well, not neccessarily on topic,

I'm using the whole concept of Babylon 5, "the last great hope for
mankind"  for the Mage game I'm running.

The players have started a Covenant where Fae, Garou, Nunnehi,
Tradition Mages, Void Engineers,  Templars, and Orphans and normal
humans are all welcomed, and where they are standing against the
rest of the Technocracy, the Inquisitiion, and the Kindred

They were all  united by a particulalry nasty Progenitor experiment
they discovered
in a research base on Io, which finally swung the VE onto the
Tradition side.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:31:54 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting

 Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>2) IMTU at least, there are NO ANONYMOUS SENDERS. Granted, some planets
>may not keep good records, but the IISS doesn't have the problem with
>hotmail and anonymous remailers in foreign juristictions.

IMTU the other big enforcement against spam is the so called Meson Gun
Spinal Mount Solution.

The Imperial Navy is there to preserve communication ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:36:01 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: B5 Spoilers are Justified!

scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:

>The spoliers for the last 5 episodes of Babylon 5 are a just and righteous
>punishment for those of you in the UK who have easy access to BITS
>products, while we here in the States must languish unfulfilled.

Hmm! So where is it that I need to exclude any new distribution deals from
then? ;-)

Get your 101 series books plus the Traveller Bilbliography from - Leisure
games, London http://www.btinternet.com/~leisuregames

You need to phone or fax for first order.

And we *are* working on a US supplier.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 11:40:42 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Non-ship Gearheadedness

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>>that or I could win the lottery so I didn't have to design detergent
>>factories to afford to live and could work full time in this..
>
>Nice to know you're not being stuck with the dirty jobs...
>
><duck>

;-)

LOL!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 11:42:57 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper" 8^)

 Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> wrote:

>> "Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>> that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>> You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
>> 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>> MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>Interesting book.  Is Rob Prior still out there?  I've spoken to one of
>his ex-students in Israel who's looking to get in contact with him.

Yes, he's still out there ;-) and still writing great Mac software.

>> Subject: Re: Off Topic:  last B5

>"I'll take two alien invasion scripts, one romantic interlude and throw
>me in a mystery as well."
>
>"That's four scripts sir you get a free, classic movie rehash with the
>purchace of five you know."
>
>"Okay well throw in the blatant Star Trek rip off episode and I'll take
>the rehash of Cassabanaca for my freebie."

<snigger>

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:40:38 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper"8^) 

 "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

>That was Cattlecar.  So which episode of B5 was the blatant Star Trek rippoff?

The end of the Shadow War. Let's talk about it and realise how bad we've been.

At least they didn't reboot the universe afterwards to remove the new
technology / paradox / canon-shattering scenario, like they do in virtually
every Trek episode.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 07:54:53 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: More than a few notes on Digest #1201 "Welcome the TNE proper"8^) 

>  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
> 
> >That was Cattlecar.  So which episode of B5 was the blatant Star Trek rippoff?
> 
> The end of the Shadow War. Let's talk about it and realise how bad we've been.

I didn't see that at all.  What I saw was, everybody getting together & saying 
'We ain't gonna play your little reindeer games no more, so get out.'   They 
didn't sit down and talk it out and realise how bad they'd been, they flat out 
refused to be part of the First Ones' politico-religious arguments anymore.  
The Shadow Wars were all about ideology:  order vs evolution.  The Vorlons 
were like our parents, in that they laid down a bunch of rules & demanded 
everybody follow them without question, without knowing why.  The Shadows were 
the ultimate Darwinians, in that they knew evolution would happen no matter 
what, and that it ain't a kindness to hang a man slowly.  They knew that some 
would live and some would die, and the best and fastest way to get the needed 
result was to stir up the anthill and let the chips fall where they may.

Now I still don't see where they ripped off a Trek episode to make this one.  
But if you CAN figger it out, clue me in on which one they ripped off.

> At least they didn't reboot the universe afterwards to remove the new
> technology / paradox / canon-shattering scenario, like they do in virtually
> every Trek episode.

That's cause B5 ain't Trek.  And thank Alla'h it ain't!  When somebody gets
hurt, they carry the bruises around for a couple days or weeks  (hell, Ivanova
had to walk with a cane for 2 episodes cause of an accident in shooting once
that cracked her ankle.  They wrote it into the script.).  No instant medical
cures.  No 'physics as wishful thinking particle of the week'.  Just good story
lines.  Definitely a refreshing change from the 'nail it with the latest
particle of the week' routine in the current Trek series.  Methinks Gene is
spinning at Warp 9 in his grave...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:21:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: From the Friday night game

In mail you write:

>>> Anyway, forward of engineering there is still pressure.  The after third
> of
>>> the passenger area decompresses when he opens the sphincter hatch from
>>> engineering, but no one is there anyway.
>>
>>It should require some sort of extra override to open the hatch with a
>>pressure differential. And the character should have sent for a
>>portable lock (basicly a plastic tent that seals over the lock, and has
>>two "chambers" so you can go into the first, seal the plastic (think of
>>a *big* zipper with a rubber "flap" seal behind it) then open another
>>seal to get to the lock. Then seal that behind you and open the lock
>>(or punch a hole thru the bulkhead). This way you don't de-pressurize a
>>compartment with survivors in it.
>
> IMTU, to vent a compartment using a sphincter hatch you must have the
> override codes.  That, however,  assumes that the hatch has power.  There is
> a manual 'handwheel' (a fitting that can be turned by hand or serves as an
> attachment point for a crank or powered door opener) that is only operable
> when there is no power.  Explosive decompression was not an issue, as once
> the seal was broken, the existing atmosphere leaked out through the seal.

I'd have a simple *mechanical* interlock on that handwheel. If there's
a substantial pressure difference, the wheel won't turn until you open
up the panel and flip a lever to disengage the interlock. That keeps
idiot passengers from killing themselves and others.

> Admittedly, if there were survivors on the far side, it would not have been
> a good thing - but during their run in to the planet (the wreck was in
> orbit), sensors showed that the ship was at environmental temperatures (i.e.
> power not being used to keep the ship at habitable temperatures), and that
> it was surrounded by a 'halo' of H2 (from leaking tanks).  The ship was also
> 'fuzzy' on the sensors (from debris surrounding the ship).
>
> Basically, they were pretty sure going onto the ship that the only possible
> survivors would be in low berth.

Ever heare the *real* definition of "certain"?

	"Can I kill you if you are wrong?"

>>> Too make a long story short, the low berth is a dummy.  The body in there
> is
>>> a manican, and the readings are such that they should never take a second
>>
>>Mannequin
>
> I knew that was wrong, but I didn't take the time to look it up.

I just supplied the spelling in case you didn't have it (I had to use
my spell checker!).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:27:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What'

In mail you write:

> That's a valid sentiment, but I just wish they'd get proficient with
> their duty sidearm!  I'm a Class-III owner, competitor, and instructor
> (4 full-auto firearms between my wife and I, and #5 is on the way) and
> I could tell stories about bad SMG and shotgun handling that would
> turn your hair *white*.

Hell, last month I was with a couple of friends at a gun shop. One of
my friends wanted to buy a pistol. One clerk was futzing around with
*something* on a pistol and in the process, waving the brreal thru an
arc in a plane that intersect our heads and those of other patrons. One
of us finaly commented *loudly* "Would you watch where you point the
barrel on that!". He looked at us like *we* were being unreasonable.
<sigh>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1207
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Saturday, November 28 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1208



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Off Topic: last B5
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting
Re: Off Topic: last B5
Re: Languages in Traveller
Getting _Way_ Off-Topic!  (Was: Re: Thanksgiving (USA))
Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)
Re: Getting _Way_ Off-Topic! (Was: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)) 
DGP vs. HIWG UWPs
Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
Re: Density (gearheads alert)
Re: DGP vs. HIWG UWPs
Re: Some Questions...biology and breeding and more...
re: B5 Spoilers are Justified!
Re: Density (gearheads alert)
Re: Some Questions...why do we need breeding?
Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)
Re: B5 Spoilers are Justified!
Re: Jump-6 courier network

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:50:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Off Topic: last B5

In mail you write:

> dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
>> >They set it up like it was going to be this massive, quasi-religious
>> fight. > You know--the Shadows are Evil;  the Vorlons are Angels of Battle.
>>
>> But they're not!  The Vorlons and Shadow weren't good or evil, they were
>> two obsessed races that had lost sight of their goals in favor of
>> advocating their views.
>
> I know.  That's what I'm bitching about.  If they were Law and Chaos all 
> along, then why all the quasi-religious stuff along the way.
>
> Shadows were always demonized.  Lorian has goat eyes and looks like
> somebody's interpretation of the devil.  The Vorlons look like
> religious creatures to all who view them.

That's because they *set up* those religions! That was obvious in the
episode where we first "saw" Kosh! And there were broad hints long
before that.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:52:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting

In mail you write:

> Black ICE wrote:
>> 
>> Given the nature of the X-boat network, do you think that such messages
>> proliferate throughout the Imperium?  If so, just how many
>> years/decades/centuries do such things float around in the message
>> traffic?  (My gut instinct is that sending the equivalent of e-mail
>> [text files only] through the X-boat network is dirt cheap, thus
>> allowing for such posts to spread from world to world, sector to
>> sector.  YMMV.)
>
> I seem to remember finding an actual price for xmail messages
> somewhere. I don't remember what it was, or where the reference was.
> I'll have to search when I'm at home. From what I remember, the price
> was high enough that you wouldn't get spam like we do with email; you
> would, though, get bulk junk xmail like we get with snail mail.

It was in one of the CT supplements. And there were even message forms
and a "grid" you filled in to send images. The prices *were* a bit out
of line, though. The price for the "image" was higher than for the
message, but the message would have taken *more* storage, even assuming
that they were both stored uncompressed.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:42:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting

In mail you write:

> I'm sure that you all have gotten any number of e-mails that ask you to
> forward said e-mail to other people.  Some are chain letters (asking you
> to send money to somebody or another), and some are simply friendly
> (such as the "e-mail snowball fignt").
>
> Given the nature of the X-boat network, do you think that such messages
> proliferate throughout the Imperium? 

Nope. You see, e-mail is essentially *free*. So these things keep
going. But increase the price to that of *postal* mail, and the number
of such things drops greatly. And in the case of chain letters and
other "pass it along" schemes, the chain breaks far more often.

> (My gut instinct is that sending the equivalent of e-mail
> [text files only] through the X-boat network is dirt cheap, thus
> allowing for such posts to spread from world to world, sector to
> sector.  YMMV.)

I think that electronically stored data sent via the X-boat service is
probably cheap. But not *execessively* cheap. Again consider it to be
equivalent to *international* postal rates.

> Of course, "Spam filters" in the X-boat network's computers might block
> such things, but would presumably have to advise the sender of the
> problem, so that the sender wouldn't have to pay for a message never
> sent.

More to the point, it's *highly* impractical to get accurate address
lists via the x-boat network. Thus you *can't* do random "mail bombing"
runs. 

Mail sent to a non-existent destination address may get bounced back.
But being e-text, there's no need to return the whole message. A simple
identifier will do. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:41:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Off Topic: last B5

In mail you write:

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>
>> I kinda liked the last episode, except they didn't tie up all the loose 
> ends,
>> like, whatever *did* happen to Lennier after he left the Rangers, and what
>> happened to Lyta.  But as a last episode, it didn't have too many 
> surprises.
>> I liked it anyways.
>
> It was touching in parts, but it was so slow...and definitely not what I
> expected.  Remember in season one when Garibaldi is flashed forward in time 
> to a
> big fight on the station.  This happens in that episode where B4 pops up.  He
> yells, to Sinclair, "I was born for this!".
>
> That never happened--and they've been so good about details like that in 
> other episodes.

See below.

> Also, what about all those flash forwards to Centauri Prime, with
> Londo on the throne, Sheridan and Dlenn in Londo's jail, with G'Kar
> coming out to kill Londo?

> That should have happened some time in the series.

Two possibilities. That's what would have happened if Sheridan *hadn't*
gone forward. 

Or, also quite possibly, it *did* happen (I haven't seen all of season
5, so forgive me if something makes this impossible). That's *when*
Londo and G'Kar die and Vir winds up as Emperor. There was no need to
show it again. Remember, that was around *18* years in the future. Thus
it may have happened between the second to the last episode and the
last one.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:44:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Languages in Traveller

In mail you write:

> It's hugely ethno-centric of you to think that any European language 
> (except English) rates in the top 10 in the world. Although German
> just squeaks in (below Russian, Portugese and Spanish though), there
> are vast, vast numbers of people in India and the general Indian 
> subcontinent region that speak Hindu, Bengali, Telgu, Tamil, Urdu,
> Gujarati, Malayalam, Kannada, Oriya, Panjabi, etc etc.

But the two listings posted so far show that Spanish is right up there
with English. Latin America contains a lot of people. And Brazil
*alone* contains a huge number of Portugese speakers. And then there's
Russian... 

Europe *did* conquer a lot of the world. 

But I agree that *if* it's cheap to establish colonies, a lot of the
third world countries *will* create colonies. Just realize that such
colonies will *not* have any appreciable effect on the population of
the country. 

The one *possible* way of having an effect is to have draconian birth
control *and* "export" the folks who won't go along with it (or at
least the most vocal ones). 

BTW, given the tendency for groups who are "different", especially
idealistic or religious groups, to want their own "place", I expect
some *strange* colonies out there.

A couple of examples:

A colony founded by over the top Star Trek Fans. They've decided to
"recreate" Kilingon society. Klingon was the language they started out
with. And it's grown since then. 

A colony founded by some idealists off one sort or another, most likely
"low tech"/"appropriate tech" folks. They decided to make Tolkien's
Sindarin (Elvish) their language.

Other "artifical" languages may wind up as living languages on some
colony. 

Those first two ought to make for some *surprised* players.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:09:57 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Getting _Way_ Off-Topic!  (Was: Re: Thanksgiving (USA))

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > ...
> > >As for Thanksgiving:  a good way to approach it would have been to outline
> > >the true (not sanitised) history of the Mayflower landing, and draw
> > ...
> >
> >   No turkey tripods with heat-rays? :(
> 
> Turkeys, being bipedal, would use bipedal walkers, whouldn't they?  Not
> tripods, right?
> 
Actually, the 10,000 Instant Martians from a Bugs Bunny cartoon vaguely
resemble an uplifted turkey (if you don't mind the green plumage).

ObTrav:  Instant Martians:  An alternative to the frozen watch.  >;-)

<<snip sig file>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:24:22 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)

John R. Snead wrote:
> 
> "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au> wrote:
> >David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> >> Another problem with clones is the time it takes to grow them.
> >> I haven't heard anything explicitly mentioned in canon, but I
> >> guess it is assumed that the Imperium has technology that can allow
> >> you to grow a clone to adulthood w/out having to wait 18 years.
> >
> > I don't see any basis for this assumption.  The various nobles are cloned
> > in infancy, according to Regency Sourcebook.  I would have thought in utero
> > would be better (ie before they are born).
> 
> Actually in MT there was definite info about cloning times.  This was
> discussed in detail by Digest Group in TD #12 & 14and in less detail in
> GDW's MT Referee's Companion.
> 
> Cloning a person (or animal) is TL 9
> 10x Growth Quickening (ie 0-18 in 1.8 years) is TL 10
> x50 Growth Quickening is TL 12
> x100 Growth quickening is TL 13
> Cloning individual body parts (a new eye, arm, leg, spleen)
> is also TL 13, and growth quickening can be used on them too.
> (the adult parts are then surgically attached).
> 
If we extrapolate this to TL 15, we get:

x500 Growth Quickening at TL 14 (0-18 years in 13.14 days)
x1000 Growth Quickening at TL 15 (0-18 years in 6.57 days)

Therefore:

Frank N. Furter was using TL 15 technology ("In just seven days, I can
make you a man!").

QED.

<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:23:25 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Getting _Way_ Off-Topic! (Was: Re: Thanksgiving (USA)) 

> > >   No turkey tripods with heat-rays? :(
> > 
> > Turkeys, being bipedal, would use bipedal walkers, whouldn't they?  Not
> > tripods, right?
> > 
> Actually, the 10,000 Instant Martians from a Bugs Bunny cartoon vaguely
> resemble an uplifted turkey (if you don't mind the green plumage).

Damn.  I forgot about them.  They'd be handy to have around in case you got 
boarded.  Even better than tribbles.  <grin>  Just throw the packet down the 
hall & spray it with a fire hose.  BAM!  Instant crushed boarding party.
 
> ObTrav:  Instant Martians:  An alternative to the frozen watch.  >;-)

Evil.  I like.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:30:42 +0100
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: DGP vs. HIWG UWPs

Recently, I've been comparing UWPs for Dagudashaag sector for use with my new,
upcoming campaign. I've been looking at two sources for sectors: The old,
dgp-updated (as they were called) files from DGP, and some modified files from
HIWG.

The HIWG files have the advantage that all the worlds are named, which allows
me to save my energy for something else. The HIWG files have also been modified
in other ways, one of which makes me wonder...

As a footnote in the file says:

"Clayton R. Bush
===============
     Size VI stars changed to size V, per TNE errata."

This is also exactly what has happened. However, as I don't have the TNE
errata, I'm wondering what the rationale for this is? What's wrong with size
VI stars? They can be found in CT and MT 'canon' - are they suddenly not a part
of the Traveller universe anymore?

Could someone please enlighten me?

TIA

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 06:57:07 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )

At 08:43 PM 11/27/98 EST, you wrote:

>Ob traveller: Any thing like this happen cannonically? I would think that
>the Imperium would kill any Zhodani that found out about the Black Globes, 
>and the Imperial Psionics research projects...

I think the zhos know about the Black Globe in much the same way the Iraqi
army has data on the effectiveness of the US Military.. they've seen it in
battle.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Zhos have a few generators of their
own and are working to replicate them for themselves.

IMTU, Naval Intellegence is a shadowy and very deadly organization.  They
will kill to protect the Emperor's secrets.
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
|  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 06:59:56 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Density (gearheads alert)

At 05:55 PM 11/27/98 +0000, you wrote:

>I'll suspend my disbelief about many of the things you mention but not
>necessarily about the way in which they are claimed to work.  If you
>claim to have an antigrav drive powered by a petrol engine and dental
>floss I won't suspend my disbelief.

Actually, I once designed the steam powered jump ship....
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 07:31:30 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: DGP vs. HIWG UWPs

At 03:30 PM 11/28/98 +0100, you wrote:

>     Size VI stars changed to size V, per TNE errata."
>
>This is also exactly what has happened. However, as I don't have the TNE
errata, I'm wondering what the rationale for this is? What's wrong with
size VI stars? They can be found in CT and MT 'canon' - are they suddenly
not a part of the Traveller universe anymore?

Size VI stars aren't really part of the *universe* anymore.. Seems they got
reclassified out of existance.. Bruce could probably tell you more.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:32:31 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Some Questions...biology and breeding and more...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, November 27, 1998 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: Some Questions...biology and breeding and more...


>Ack! My assumptions were way off...
>
>I need to lower the number of colonists then...I'm trying to create a
>situation where the colonists would be worrying about breeding and such.
>The basis is that the mission originally had enough breeding adults, but
>that an accident in transit killed a significant portion of them. Thus the
>survivors need to do some clever stuff to survive. But I assumed that the
>numbers would be higher...so I need to change things a bit. Not a problem,
>and I'm glad I asked before finishing up.
>
>  Slam away....
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Andrew Akins                                                        |
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

Andy cut the numbers of the women down to 15-20 (fertile ones, others lost
their fertility?) and then using your embryo solution would make sense when
they first start repopulating.  Might make a good lead off.

Thom Harris

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:36:22 +0000
From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
Subject: re: B5 Spoilers are Justified!

At 00:36 28/11/98 +0000, you wrote:
>scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:
>
>>The spoliers for the last 5 episodes of Babylon 5 are a just and righteous
>>punishment for those of you in the UK who have easy access to BITS
>>products, while we here in the States must languish unfulfilled.
>

What is B5 <ewg>



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:40:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Density (gearheads alert)

Martin Hardgrave wrote:
 
> I'll suspend my disbelief about many of the things you mention but not
> necessarily about the way in which they are claimed to work.  If you
> claim to have an antigrav drive powered by a petrol engine and dental
> floss I won't suspend my disbelief.

Gas powered air-raft (TL10)
Designed by Bruce Johnson

This vehicle was designed using the rules in the Central Supply Catalog.

Summary:
     1.00 displacement ton open-topped slab streamlined;  4.01 tonnes;  kCr 34.9
Chassis:
     14.0 kL open-topped slab streamlined (8.2 m long x 2.4 m wide x 74 cm
high);  
Structure: 491 kg of light composite, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.010 cm thick, 1
armour rating
     
Performance:
     300 kW TL8 turbine, mhd; Fuel: 179 L of high-grade hcarb (179 kg), 6
hours supply
     Propulsion System: 100 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 45 km/h loaded, 280 km/h unloaded; 
Range: 269 km loaded, 1678 km unloaded; 
Agility: +1DM (1.7G) loaded, -2DM (4.7G) unloaded
     
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  3 cramped passenger seats
Communications:
     Regional Radio (10 W, TL10, SmVcl);  Range: 30 km

Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     5.00 kL of cargo space (2.50 tonnes)

Also includes one spool dental floss in the glove box. Approximately 15 cm is
used to hang the fuzzy dice from the rear-view mirror. Another 60 cm is in use
bundling up several hoses on the powerplant to keep them from rubbing.



(Designed with Infini-V: Traveller's Vehicle Design Studio. Copyright Robert
Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:11:44 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Re: Some Questions...why do we need breeding?

Some people have been asking _why_ my little colony needs to bolster its
population.

Well, the planet it colonizes is located in an area of space that is in the
middle of interstellar conflict - the K'Kree are invading (This sector is
immediately next to the 2000 worlds). The numerous pocket empires of the
area are holding off the centaurs - in fact, they've banded together in a
pseudo-alliance called the Community. And dropped into the middle of this
mix is a small band of TL9 humans. Not good for the humans.

They ally themselves with a nearby alien government which assists the
humans with a technological uplift program. But if war is going to be
coming to them, they need to be ready - and that means warm bodies are
needed, unfortunately.

This is the rough outline - there are many more details. Eventually, the
humans come to colonize four worlds (five, actually, but the fifth world is
inhabited by people exiled from the original colonies) and are one of the
major pocket empires trying to stem the K'Kree advance.

More details to follow, once the writeup is finished. Again, feel free to
slam/comment away.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                        |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AIM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AIM: CMS AndyA    |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+   |
|       vi+ da+                                                       |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+     |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                            |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:42:01 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)

> From: John R. Snead <jsnead@netcom.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Clones (was: Jump-6...)
> Date: Saturday, 28 November 1998 17:12
> 
> "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au> wrote:
> >David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> >> Another problem with clones is the time it takes to grow them.
> >> I haven't heard anything explicitly mentioned in canon, but I
> >> guess it is assumed that the Imperium has technology that can allow
> >> you to grow a clone to adulthood w/out having to wait 18 years.
> > 
> > I don't see any basis for this assumption.  The various nobles are cloned
> > in infancy, according to Regency Sourcebook.  I would have thought in utero
> > would be better (ie before they are born).
> 
> Actually in MT there was definite info about cloning times.  This was
> discussed in detail by Digest Group in TD #12 & 14and in less detail in
> GDW's MT Referee's Companion. 
> 

I don't have TD#12&14.  My copy of Ref's Companion is 80 miles away.  I
believe you.

> Cloning a person (or animal) is TL 9
> 10x Growth Quickening (ie 0-18 in 1.8 years) is TL 10
> x50 Growth Quickening is TL 12
> x100 Growth quickening is TL 13
> Cloning individual body parts (a new eye, arm, leg, spleen) 
> is also TL 13, and growth quickening can be used on them too.
> (the adult parts are then surgically attached).
> 
> On a related note:
> 
> Regrowing body parts by stimulating the body to regrow a new arm, eye...
> is TL 9, but it takes months to years (depending on the size of the new
> part).  10x growth quickening speeds this (3 weeks for a eye to 3 months
> for a new leg, but using any of the more rapid forms of growth quickening
> requires that the patient be on full life support for the duration (then
> again they can grow you a new leg in a week at TL 13). 
> 
> 
> -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
> 

A general point about canon dogmatism that I was going to make anyway: 
Just because a technology hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't
exist!

IMTU, I'm very conservative about the technologies I allow.  I'm a Little
Black Book player at heart.  I've got a lot of stuff from later editions,
which is why I can quote them, but I'm usually doing it from memory, and
can be wrong.  Most of my books are in storage at my parents' place in
Toowoomba, 80 miles from Brisbane, where I live.  I don't have everything
from any edition, let alone from all of them.

John's points are probably correct.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:45:57 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: B5 Spoilers are Justified!

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> 
> And we *are* working on a US supplier.
> 
> Dom
> 
> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------

An Australian one would be good too!

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:35:49 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

David P. Summers writes:

>Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:34:26 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>>Are we told that the Imperium recognizes this strain?
> 
>>Yes. That's why the X-boat network was created in the first place.
> 
>And they may well feel it has "solved" the problem.

And then again, they may not. I know which possibility I consider the most
likely. In any case, they have, at least at one point, been aware of the
problem.
 
>>>Would a 33% increase in time be enough to make a significant difference
>>>in this strain (compared to the costs involved)?
> 
>>It seems very likely to me. YMMV.
> 
>Well, all I can say is that I'm not so sure.

Of course you're not. If you were, I don't suppose you'd be arguing about
it ;-).
 
>>What money? 5 credits for a message chip? If the IN is sending regular
>>couriers back and forth between the Admiralty and the various fleet HQs,
>>you don't need anything else to expand it to carry important government
>>messages.
> 
>Yes, you do. You can come up with routes for such couriers that leave out
>most systems (even compared to X-boat routes).

Sure you can. And it won't make more than a week or two's difference at the
most. Because there are one set of systems that a Naval courier network
would automatically touch: those containing a fleet HQ. And as there are
at least one fleet HQ in each subsector, and since most, if not all, of
those would be located in the system with the subsector capital, an IN
courier network automatically mirror the needs of the Imperial Bureaucracy.
So you get priority mail delivered from Core to Mora at somewhere between
5 and 6 parsecs per week instead of the X-boat rate of 2.6 parsecs per week
(which, incidentally is an improvement of over 100% and not the 33% you've
been claiming).

Now, any world without a naval base will need to get its messages forwarded
by X-boat for the single leg (possibly two legs) that the IN couriers don't
cover (assuming for purposes of argument that the IN isn't required by the
Emperor to provide the last leg after all). This will delay the messages
another week or two. But the real time loss lies in the stretch from the
core to the frontier, and that has been handled by the couriers. 

>Also, I doubt the Imperium is going to be sending a jump-6 courier every
>few days for routine traffic.  Instead, I can see them being around to be
>used for the occaison high priority message.

Information lag is one of the biggest problems any navy has in a Traveller
universe. An Imperium where each fleet does not have sufficient couriers
to keep in regular touch with each component part and all its neighboring
fleets is IMO far more implausible than... well, I can't really come up
with an example that is sufficiently implausible to make my point. I'd
willingly accept a fleet that has daily couriers and would scorn any that
didn't have at least a weekly courier (I'd consider something in between
those two figure to be the most likely).
 
>Such a system will be in no way sufficient to carry messages on
>an X-boat kind of level.

Yes it would. And even if it wouldn't, a simple priority scheme would allow
the important messages to go by Navy courier and the bumpf to go by X-boat.

The crucial point in this discussion appears to be just how much contact
there is between individual fleets and between the Admiralty and sector
HQs. How many couriers do you think each fleet would have? I'm not asking
you for a definitive canon answer, just what _you_ think is plausible.
How often does fleet admirals in YTU hear from the Admiralty and vice versa?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1208
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Saturday, November 28 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1209



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: various stuff (german uboats)
Re: Imperial Get Outta Jail Cards 
Re: Commerce Raiding and the Law of War  (longish)
Good War - Bad War (was re: Coup de Grace)
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Good War - Bad War (was re: Coup de Grace) 
Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting 
Re: various stuff
Re: SS3 Missiles in HG....  Thoughts (LONG)
Re: Some Questions...
Re Verisimilitude
Re: Uplifted Turkeys & the Muppet factor 
Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )
Re: Kinda off topic - WW2 sub stuff
Re: SS3 Missiles in HG....  Thoughts (LONG)
Re: Population Biology (was Re: Some questions...)
Re: Thanksgiving (USA) 
Re: jump-6 courier network
Re: Kinda off topic - WW2 sub stuff
Ian's "Frieght Rider" (LONG!, Gearheadedness High, Plus annoying POV's from Me)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:23:21 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: various stuff (german uboats)

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 11/27/98 6:33:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>RSpake2064@aol.com writes:
>
><< comeing form someone like me that might sound hipicritical since i feel
>taht
> my actions in the Gulf War where i killed the children that an iraqi sniper
> was useing as a human shield.  to me this action was a war crime, and i
>should
> ahve been tried for it instead of getting patted on the back and told good
> job.
>I don't know why you are tormenting yourself. That a-----e you were fighting
>wouldn't have gave a s--t for you. It's HIS fault those kids are dead. I hope
>you sent him to paradise.... Thanks for your service to the country. PS: I
>can't see a court convicting you on this one...

Interestingly (not wanting to get into the morals of the situation): I can
recall several incidents when British troops serving in Northern Ireland
have been convicted of murder or manslaughter in UK civil courts but have
not been dishonourably discharged. This is usually when the rules of
engagement were being followed by the troops; however, following them isn't
a defence in civil law. In the cases I recall, on release (which was
usually in a few years) the soldiers involved returned to the Army and
we'ren't looked down/punished for their actions.

I also seem to recall that US troops in the UK were subject to different
rules and effectively exempt from UK civil law. The US could ship them
straight back home instead because of treaty agreements. I can remember
this happening after an assault of some sort.

ObTrav: Would there be incidents when Imperial troops were convicted by
system courts but the Imperium could ignore the situation?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:10:44 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Get Outta Jail Cards 

> ObTrav: Would there be incidents when Imperial troops were convicted by
> system courts but the Imperium could ignore the situation?

Obvious case would be when the troops were tried and convicted of blasphemy or
other religious crime on a religious dictatorship world.  Since freedom of (and
*FROM*) religion is an Imperial 'gimme', expect the Impies to pull their guys
out of hock before they serve more than a night in jail.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 11:47:40 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Commerce Raiding and the Law of War  (longish)

>ObTrav:  What impact do any interstellar Conventions Regarding Conduct
>of Armed Forces During Time of War have on a commerce raiding strategy?
>After all, in fleet actions, one has an incentive to avoid obliterating
>crippled enemy ships.  If one holds the field of battle, the enemy
>cripples are valuable both intrinsically and as inteligence sources.  If
>one appears unlikely to hold the field, destroying enemy cripples is
>more likely to result in atrocities against the ships _you'll_ have to
>leave behind.  OTOH, commerce raiders have the following limitations:

Of course that last "if" is a big one.  If you are likely to
have to retreat, every ship you don't destroy will simply
be repaired and you efforts (and losses) are wasted.  OTOH,
there is an issue that in many cases you will be more
concered with shooting at ships that can shoot back.  Which
is the more effective strategy will vary.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:51:05 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Good War - Bad War (was re: Coup de Grace)

Alan Bradley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Relevance to Traveller:  Atrocities and war crimes breed atrocities and war
crimes.  Mercenary (CT) differentiated between "good wars" and "bad wars". 
This is the difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
To the locals fighting the war, "Good War" must sound very ironic
coming from the lips of off-world mercenaries. Especially when defeat
has occurred, and the local is off to a prison/death camp while the merc
is cashing in a repatriation bond.

Images of a merc commander taking the repatriation bonds off his KIA
mercs and offering them to the best survivors of the losing local army.
A contract would go with it, of course...and all contractually legal under
clause 172.13.A of our contract, "Right to recruit replacements for
casualites suffered".  "He was highly placed in the rebellion? Hmmm, sorry,
that's irrelevant to me, I know he can shoot and follow orders, that's
enough for me. You have a problem with that? I see. You realize that
you called us in because the rebels were better than you, and you
realize that their defeat means we were better with them...are you smart
enough to see where this is going? Good, I see we are being civilized
about this. No, my men weren't pointing their laser rifles at anything
important just now...well, important to _us_, anyway."  <G>

Aren't Repatriation Bonds often issued to "Bearer"? I'm imagining 
some world situations where such a bond could be the most valuable
thing carried - like a passport onto the plane in _Casablanca_.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:11:21 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:35:49 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
[Stuff were we simply don't consider the same things likely...]
>>Yes, you do. You can come up with routes for such couriers that leave out
>>most systems (even compared to X-boat routes).

>Sure you can. And it won't make more than a week or two's difference at the
>most.

But for many messages going jump -6 (and the basis for intermediate
stops), a few weeks difference is exactly all you are saving.  If
it is important enough to set up a jump-6 system, then it will
important in routing....

>So you get priority mail delivered from Core to Mora at somewhere between
>5 and 6 parsecs per week instead of the X-boat rate of 2.6 parsecs per week
>(which, incidentally is an improvement of over 100% and not the 33% you've
>been claiming).

I've been claiming 33% because that is what setting up a jump-6 system
with the same kind of service the X-boats provide, will give you.

Dedicated couriers (if you have enough of them so that you can
pass messages on rather than have to go into the port to refuel)
will beat and X-boat kind of system (a jump-4 courier can beat
the X-boat system).  But this is expensive (you have to have
courier ships sitting around at each world on an optimum path
between the two systems involved and not pick up mail at
intermediate stops.)  (You can mitigate the is if you swallow
the lost in time it take to refuel and send one ship, but you
still have to take the optimum route and if you are going to
use this for routine traffic, then you still need to have them
go frequently and you still need a lot of them).  Since you are only
make stops at the world that happen to lie along the optimum path, it
isn't that useful for messages from the important worlds the
lie along the path.

There may be J-6 couriers between the Capital and Mora.  However,
the routine traffic of the Navy (assignments, standard orders, etc.)
are going to go at X-boat speeds just fine.  My guess is they
probably have one or two sitting around for emergency transmitions.
I don't think they are sending every smuggling advisory out
on a jump-6 courier.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:10:16 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Good War - Bad War (was re: Coup de Grace) 

> Images of a merc commander taking the repatriation bonds off his KIA
> mercs and offering them to the best survivors of the losing local army.
> A contract would go with it, of course...and all contractually legal under
> clause 172.13.A of our contract, "Right to recruit replacements for
> casualites suffered".  "He was highly placed in the rebellion? Hmmm, sorry,
> that's irrelevant to me, I know he can shoot and follow orders, that's
> enough for me. You have a problem with that? I see. You realize that
> you called us in because the rebels were better than you, and you
> realize that their defeat means we were better with them...are you smart
> enough to see where this is going? Good, I see we are being civilized
> about this. No, my men weren't pointing their laser rifles at anything
> important just now...well, important to _us_, anyway."  <G>

I can see this happening, since to a merc commander, his 'business' is his men 
and their equipment.  Both represent a considerable investment in time and 
money, so the commander is going to want to get back to full strength as soon 
as possible after a ticket is done.  And if recruiting from his recently 
defeated enemy just happens, well, so be it.  <grin>

> Aren't Repatriation Bonds often issued to "Bearer"? I'm imagining 
> some world situations where such a bond could be the most valuable
> thing carried - like a passport onto the plane in _Casablanca_.

I can see this too.  And IIRC, the bond *is* made out to 'bearer'.  But, also, 
IIRC, if the mercs *win*, they don't *NEED* the repatriation bond, since their 
employers pay their way out again.  Repatriation bonds are used by the 
*losing* merc unit.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:17:31 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: E-mail and the Traveller Setting 

> > I'm sure that you all have gotten any number of e-mails that ask you to
> > forward said e-mail to other people.  Some are chain letters (asking you
> > to send money to somebody or another), and some are simply friendly
> > (such as the "e-mail snowball fignt").
> >
> > Given the nature of the X-boat network, do you think that such messages
> > proliferate throughout the Imperium? 
> 
> Nope. You see, e-mail is essentially *free*. So these things keep
> going. But increase the price to that of *postal* mail, and the number
> of such things drops greatly. And in the case of chain letters and
> other "pass it along" schemes, the chain breaks far more often.

Email requires *storage*.  This isn't free.  It's paid for.  My account here, 
for instance, lets me use up to a megabyte in disc quota, *including* email, 
so I've been making sure I can keep my web space down to allow for more email.

> > (My gut instinct is that sending the equivalent of e-mail
> > [text files only] through the X-boat network is dirt cheap, thus
> > allowing for such posts to spread from world to world, sector to
> > sector.  YMMV.)
> 
> I think that electronically stored data sent via the X-boat service is
> probably cheap. But not *execessively* cheap. Again consider it to be
> equivalent to *international* postal rates.

You still have to *store* the messages.  This takes up space in some data 
storage device.  No matter how cheap the storage devices are, they're still 
not free.  And they're finite, as well.  On a high traffic world, I'd expect 
to see 2 or 3 xboats working out of there just to handle the governmental 
xmail & diplomatic stuff.

> Mail sent to a non-existent destination address may get bounced back.
> But being e-text, there's no need to return the whole message. A simple
> identifier will do. 

Even the header & identifier still take up space in the storage device.  Not as
much as the message itself, mind you, but it *will* take up *some* room...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:50:12 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: various stuff

In a message dated 11/27/98 17:10:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ianw@orac.net.au writes:

<< >There was also a German U-boat captain tried and convicted of killing
sinking
 >survivors, but I seem to recall there was no definate proof it actually
 >happened.  Everyone knows that the war-crimes trials had nothing to do with
 >justice.
 
 You are referring to Eck of U-852, but Donitz' instruction 154, written in
 November 1939, ordered crews to 'Rescue no one and take no-one with you.
 Have no care for the ships boats'.  >>

	I believe the "official" reason he was tried and executed was that he did
actually surface and machine-gun the survivors...simply leaving them to fend
for themselves would have been hard to prosecute as a war crime, even though
they would likely have died (on the Russian convoys, orders were routinely
issued that no one was to attempt to pick up thier OWN survivors...too
dangerous to the rescue ships).

	The point I actually intended to make related to the original post, which was
about disabled warships and survivors, is that the attitudes of the forces
involved make a large difference.  The war between Japan and the US was a
bitter one...one in which no quarter was asked or given.  The US Navy and the
RN did not show the same hatred to the Nazis, who also (in general) did not go
out of thier way to exterminate people on the high seas.

	In Trav terms...in a war (5FFW, for instance) the general professionalism of
both sides would prevail (the stars are the common foe of all men), but in a
very vicious war (the Rebellion, forex)  I could see no mercy at all given (if
this isn't canonical, maybe it should be...esp. for Lucan's faction)

DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 16:05:43 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: SS3 Missiles in HG....  Thoughts (LONG)

In a message dated 11/27/98 20:13:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

<<         So, here is our problem....  If you take a look at the most extreme
 example of a missile under the SS3 rules, we see a few things fairly readily:
  >>

	Our real problem is readily apparent...SS3 missiles were intended for Classic
Trav warships, not High Guard warships.  The other underlying assumption is
that a standard launcher can only accept weapons of 50kg or less...not 738kg
monsters.  You cannot make SS3 missiles fit into HG, the systems are not
compatible.

DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 17:00:09 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Some Questions...

Steven Hudson wrote:

>   The above is probably an over-simplification specific to the last
> century or two. In typical pre-industrial agricultural societies
> "good times" leads to population growth, and this trend seems to
> carry over into early industrial societies. In subsistence or small-
> holding agriculture (e.g. early modern France) it's due to lack of
> economic opportunity that marriage (and thus child-bearing*) is delayed.

Yes, it was an oversimplification.  Its been years since I've dabbled in
Malthus, empirical analysis of historical population growth trends, etc.,
etc., I was just trying to give the highlights.  I should have stressed that
_sustained_ good times, i.e., over several generations, _seem_ to lead
to higher marrying age, fewer children later in life, etc.  This is observed
in the industrialized countries.  Certainly there are a great many other
factors and we only have one place to examine data from, but the trend
is increasingly evident.

>  * well, except in places like Brittany, or so I understand :)

I think you last point here about economic opportunity is correct,
now that I think about it.  IIRC, it was life expectancy that was
the most important among several factors (although not dramatically
more important) that pointed to younger marrying ages and younger
child bearing.

>   High mortality necessitates high fertility, but the rest gets
> awfully complicated.

It certainly does.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:34:14 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Verisimilitude

>
>I'll suspend my disbelief about many of the things you mention but not
>necessarily about the way in which they are claimed to work.  If you
>claim to have an antigrav drive powered by a petrol engine and dental
>floss I won't suspend my disbelief.
>- --
>Martin Hardgrave

Well, if you weave the dental floss into a sturdy belt from the motor to
the generator, and then power the damned Gravitics that way....

Internal Combustion Petrol Engines CAN be used to (just barely) power a
very very marginal grav vehicle by at least some of the design sequences.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:aramis@gci.net> Note: All other E-mail addresses for me expire by
the end of november 1998!
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
UTUP 0309 6-7779577-5-5-2
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 17:28:25 -0500
From: "Catherine Tannenbaum" <cat@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Uplifted Turkeys & the Muppet factor 

Paul you are such a pig. You took that from me and posted it. No fare. Hey
someone tell him just because he lives with me (most of the time) doesn't
mean he can post my wise cracks here. If anyone gets to post them I do. PIGS
in SPACE, I loved that. What an awsome uplift. Anyone remember the name of
the ship?
Cathy
- -----Original Message-----
From: Paul Schirf <pc@PerkWorks.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, November 27, 1998 11:50 AM
Subject: Uplifted Turkeys & the Muppet factor


>> Think of it - a pre-stellar world being attacked by a race
>> of uplifted turkeys out for revenge; crushing resistance
>> from their tripod walkers they herd together the horrified
>> survivors to finish them off with axe and three-tined
>> bayonets!
>
>
>Followed by "Pigs In Space"...  Pigs certainly qualify as a
>candidate for uplifting.  They are intelligent, by "animal
>standards", and they even have an appropriate body mass.
>
>Paul Schirf
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:18:24 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace (was Re: Off Topic: last B5 )

At 06:57 28/11/98 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>IMTU, Naval Intellegence is a shadowy and very deadly organization.  They
>will kill to protect the Emperor's secrets.

Given the way the behaved over attempts to get information on Virus out I'd
say they are in the OTU, too.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:45:28 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kinda off topic - WW2 sub stuff

In a message dated 11/27/98 10:14:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ianw@orac.net.au writes:

<< In short, I would recommed Kahn's book 'Seizing the Enigma' (Arrow, 1991).
>>

If I find it; I'll read it. I got my info from the beginning of the naval
minis rules published by the same people who did the Harpoon4 modern naval
minis (Clash of Arms Games). As for Churchill; while I admire his work as PM;
don't forget he was the one who conspired to Hold Turner of the Lusitania as a
scapegoat, and that IS documented... I believe we all have our skeletons in
our national historical closets. Historians have a bad tendency to write in
blacks and whites, when history is often a bunch of disjointed grays...

Ob Trav. How much of the Imperial History has been propagandised pro or anti
Imperial?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:04:32 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: SS3 Missiles in HG....  Thoughts (LONG)

At 04:05 PM 28/11/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 11/27/98 20:13:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:
>
><<         So, here is our problem....  If you take a look at the most extreme
> example of a missile under the SS3 rules, we see a few things fairly readily:
>  >>
>
>	Our real problem is readily apparent...SS3 missiles were intended for Classic
>Trav warships, not High Guard warships.  The other underlying assumption is
>that a standard launcher can only accept weapons of 50kg or less...not 738kg
>monsters.  You cannot make SS3 missiles fit into HG, the systems are not
>compatible.
>
>DustyLV769
>

        Hi, Dusty!
        Actually, there is direct cannon ref in SS3 that missiles of >50kg
can only be fired from High Guard bays.  I believe I posted the quote in a
previous message.  The point of my entire post was that *if* you run HG for
space combat, then these are issues to deal with if you want to encorporate
SS3.  I am aware that the original concept of SS3 was for Book2/CT only.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 16:43:31 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Population Biology (was Re: Some questions...)

> 1) Starting with around 10000 adults, and assuming agressive breeding, what
> would be (approximately) the population in 600 years?

Depends what your tech level and infrastructure is. I would estimate the
number of cloning tanks you have * how many clones/year one can make * 600
years. In the billions, easily. Frankly, I think the limiting factor is how
quickly you can educate, support, and provide livelihoods for new citizens.

> 2) What size of population is required to assure (hopefully) that genetic
> drift occurs - that is, you do not have inbreeding.

At high tech levels, I'd say zero population; you can geneer as many
genetically distinct individuals you want from a single sample.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:18:52 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA) 

>>   No turkey tripods with heat-rays? :(
>
>Turkeys, being bipedal, would use bipedal walkers, whouldn't they?  Not 
>tripods, right?


You've never seen a three-legged turkey?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:58:56
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: jump-6 courier network

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network
>
>>The *Imperium* probably wont. Imperial corporations, on the other hand
>
>[An example of a specific route, chosen to exagerate the
>difference between jump-6 and jump-4, deleted.  Effate is
>exactly jump-6 from Regina and the Xboat isn't efficiently
>routed between them.  If you are going to postule a general
>jump-6 system of courier that shadows the X-boats, you are
>going to have to make the same compromises about crossing
>distance, vs hitting intermediate stops, etc.]

David, I picked Regina subsector becuase it is one of the traditional and
best known places in the Imperium. Trin to Robin to Glisten is two jump-6s,
then we pass the baton onto a jump-5 craft who does the Glisten-Tirem leg,
and then a jump-6 boat to Persephone, and then another jump-6 boat to Lunion.

Now, we need to link up Trin to Mora (Trin-Katarulu by jump-5, then to
Maitz by jump-6, then it's either a jump-4 hop to Mora, or swing across to
Strouden at jump-6, then a jump-4 hop to Lunion). The Mora-Lunion Express
goes at jump-5 via Mercury, while the Mora-Glisten route goes
Mora-Maitz-Tussinian-Ffudn-Glisten.

We have now connected the biggest and most important worlds in the Spinward
Marches, at speeds that make the Xboat system look like the obsolete
jury-rig that it is.

>
>On average, jump-6 will save 33% over jump 4.  It will this mean
>basically duplicating the cost of the X-boat network and more
>(the cost of J6 boats vs J4).  I don't think any corp is going
>to want messages a bit faster that bad.  

I'd put jump-6 at more like 50-100% more than jump-4, and worth every penny.

As an example, as a thought-example, let us assume that we are stockbroking
firms about the size of JP Morgan is at the moment. You have three week old
data, while I shelled out my hundred million a year for a share in Xpress
Routing, and thus have two week old data.

What customer in their right mind would come to you for advice ? What scams
couldnt my firm run on your firm ?

Now, under FFS2, a 200 dton jump-6 Fast Courier costs about MCr 150, and
pulls 5 gees (you have to use all that power for *something*).


>Instead, I can see
>that the corps that are big enough, have a few jump-6 courier
>in key places to take the really important messages, and little
>more.

As far as I can see, economics will not limit traffic to jump-4, and there
is always the Vargr option is the Imperial government tries to ban jump-6
vessels (route your jump-6 Fast Couriers thru the Vargr Extents).

Now, jumpspace physics might, if we assume misjump chances rise to about 3%
per jump for jump-5, and 5% per jump for jump-6.

This will make military use of jump-6 for raids still possible, but will
pretty much knock out the commercial market.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:26:03 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Kinda off topic - WW2 sub stuff

> Ob Trav. How much of the Imperial History has been propagandised pro or
anti
> Imperial?

IMTU, most of it!  You see, if you read all the canon material with a
careful and very very cynical eye, you start to see the blind spots and
biases where scenarios lurk.

Non Imperial example:
If you take a look at the various library data entries on the Terran
Confederation, you will see a little passing comment that the UN becomes a
true world government in the three decades after First Contact.  Now think
about that.  Sure, the Vilani are a unifying threat, but putting every
single stupid little country on Earth into any kind of coherent government
in a mere three decades isn't something that would have just happened.

What's hiding in here?  Could there have been a Bismarck figure, pulling
some kind of "blood and iron" stunt during this period?  Maybe, maybe not. 
Whatever is interesting.  It's a safe bet some kind of intrigues were going
on, and it's things like this that get PCs killed...  Would the Imperium
have an interest in "ignoring" the details of how one of its heroic and
noble predecessors was formed?  Maybe.

The whole Imperial History we have is painted with a very broad brush, with
very little detail.  That is often a good way of producing propoganda - you
don't dispute the facts, you merely gloss over the ones that are
inconvenient.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:04:37 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Ian's "Frieght Rider" (LONG!, Gearheadedness High, Plus annoying POV's from Me)

        Hi, Ian!
        Here is your custom designed "freight rider" from heck.  Mothership,
plus 3 "shuttles" based around the same 1500-ton cone-config hull, tailored
to different purposes.  All are built to TL 15, and are designed with
"obscene" as the watch-word.
        After USP data is load vs range vs PPT breakdown introspective.
        BTW, for brevity, I am not including the entire design sheets...
you'll just have to trust me on this.

        O/_____________________________
        O\
Megalodon (FR Mothership)	MN-R755663-109900-09009-0		MCr8118.15		100Ktons
	Batteries Bearing	                   7  U					         TL = 15
	Batteries			           A  Z				                Crew = 410
        Passengers = 0.  Cargo=300.  Fuel=60000.  EP=6000.  Agility=4.
Troops=0.
        Note: Z=40

Dolphin (FR Cargo Shuttle)      AY-1202221-000000-00000-0		MCr232.14		1500tons
	Batteries Bearing	                					        TL = 15
	Batteries			                           				Crew = 2
        Passengers = 0.  Cargo=1322.  Fuel=30.  EP=30.  Agility=2.  Troops=0.

Basking Whale (FR Tanker)       TY-1202221-000000-00009-0		MCr230.44		1500tons
	Batteries Bearing	                      1					        TL = 15
	Batteries			              1				                Crew = 4
        Passengers = 0.  Cargo=2.  Fuel=1280.  EP=30.  Agility=2.  Troops=0.

Barracuda (FR Combat Shuttle)	BY-1206UJ2-909700-00390-0		MCr2927.99		1500tons
	Batteries Bearing	                    21					        TL = 15
	Batteries			            21				                Crew = 20
        Passengers = 0.  Cargo=0.  Fuel=0.  EP=0.  Agility=0.  Troops=0.

        O/_____________________________
        O\
Meg Weight	100,000
Shuttle Weight	  1,500
Meg J-Drive Tons  6,000

# Shuttles	Meg Range
1	 5 
5	 5 
10	 4 
25	 3 
50	 2 
100	 1 
150	 1 
200	 1 
250	 0 

        If we build our FreightRon on the following guidelines:
                75% Cargo Shuttles,
                15% Tanker Shuttles,
                10% Combat Shuttles
        ... we get:

Meg Range       # Shuttles	Breakdown                                            
5               1	              1 Cargo (1,322t)
5               5	              3 Cargo (3,966t), 1 Tanker, 1 Combat
4               10	              7 Cargo (9,254t), 2 Tankers, 1 Combat
3               25	             18 Cargo (23,796t), 4 Tankers, 3 Combats
2               50	             36 Cargo (47,592t), 8 Tankers, 6 Combats
1               200	            150 Cargo (198,300t), 30 Tankers, 20 Combats
0               250	            N/A


Meg Cost	8,118.15
Cargo Cost	  232.14 				
Cargo Load	1,322.00
Tanker Cost	  230.44 				
Combat Cost	2,927.99

Range	  # Cargo	# Tanker # Combat	FrieghtRon 	FrieghtRon Cargo
Cargo Cost 
                                                Month Cost      (2 Loads /
month)         (Cr/ Ton)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
5          1	            0	   0	         34.79 	         2,644.00
13,159.18 
5          3	            1	   1	         49.89 	         7,932.00
6,289.40
4          7	            2	   1	         54.72 	        18,508.00
2,956.38
3         18	            4	   3	         91.68 	        47,592.00
1,926.30
2         36	            8	   6	        149.53 	        95,184.00
1,570.93
1        150	           30	  20	        451.72 	       396,600.00
1,138.97

Range	  Cargo	         Month Gross Earn (MCr)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
5	 2,644.00      	       7.27 
5	 7,932.00	      21.81 
4       18,508.00 	      41.64 
3	47,592.00 	      83.29 
2	95,184.00 	     118.98 
1      396,600.00 	     297.45

Range	Month Gross       Month Gross 	% Diff
        Earn (MCr)	  Cost (MCr)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
5	 7.27 	              34.79 	  21%
5	 21.81 	              49.89 	  44%
4	 41.64 	              54.72 	  76%
3	 83.29 	              91.68 	  91%
2	 118.98 	     149.53 	  80%
1	 297.45 	     451.72 	  66%

        Well, Ian....  I don't think it flies on (250Cr + 500Cr/parsec) /
ton.  If the FrieghtRon is going to be able to defend itself (its a massive
convoy, really, complete with own escorts) there is too much money tied up
in hull costs that doesn't actually haul cargo.
        It's *damn* impressive, mind you.  You can virtually guarantee that
nothing short of an actual Naval fleet is going to prevent you from
delievering your cargo...  The Megalodon's own armaments would scare the
crap out of most destroyers, let alone those evil little Barracudas (can you
imagine being the Pirate captain seeing 20 of those heading his way?).
        Maybe that is where the money is.  The "risk" premiums thing
again.... You can charge 3 - 5 times the Cr for a given range, just because
it WILL get there.  In one haul, maximum load, the FreightRon can move 2500
times the cargo of a 20th Century "Panamax" G3 Cargo carrier....  or say,
the GNP of the US in one load.
        Of course, that makes the FrieghtRon a "Core" area vessel only.  At
a plodding jump one, you need lots of Hi-Pop Ind worlds packed close
together that need megatons of material per year moved safely.  Also, given
the total value of the cargo she'd be carrying, the Zho might be willing to
send a CruRon after one near the border...  Bankrupt planet, anyone?
        I dunno.  I am not convinced its viable.  Even if you strip her
protection.  Your thoughts?
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1209
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Sunday, November 29 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1210



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct?
Re: jump-6 courier network
re: various stuff
Re: Uplifted Turkeys & the Muppet factor  
Repatriation Bonds
Re: Imperial Get Outta Jail Cards
[OT] Re: Thanksgiving (USA)
Re: Amish in Space
Re: Kinda off topic - WW2 sub stuff
Re: Coup de Grace
Re: Density (gearheads alert)
PE Spreadsheet
The Decline and Fall of the Third Imperium (was Re: Jump-6 courier networks)
Re: various stuff (german uboats)
Imperium - a query.
Re: Terran Languages in the 3I
Re: Some Questions...
Re: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct?
Re: Query
Re: Efate & TNS entries
j6 Xboats in canon
Skimming from stars
Re: Smuggling

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 05:24:51 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct?

As a sort of "side thread" to the Good War/Bad War merc thread, I
just had a thought:

I've recently been reading Dickson's "Dorsai" series, and in a
couple of places, reference is made to the Mercenary's Code,
a.k.a. the Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct.  One can get
an idea of some of what the MC/PSCC says from the references to
it; for example, one article prohibits the killing of POWs or
innocent civilians, another allows summary execution of soldiers
who fail to obey orders, and so on.  It also appears to grant
certain rights, such as for the line troops to vote on and demand
that the officers lead them in a certain action.

Would such a PSCC actually exist IaTU?  If so, can we work up the
text?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 21:32:58 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: jump-6 courier network

Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:58:56, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>David, I picked Regina subsector becuase it is one of the traditional and
>best known places in the Imperium.

Regardless why you picked it, the question of its representativeness
remains.

>>On average, jump-6 will save 33% over jump 4.  It will this mean
>>basically duplicating the cost of the X-boat network and more
>>(the cost of J6 boats vs J4).  I don't think any corp is going
>>to want messages a bit faster that bad.

>I'd put jump-6 at more like 50-100% more than jump-4, and worth every penny.

Well, the question is why?  Because you think there will be some
sort of extra efficiency in how intermediate stops will be placed?
There is no reason why jump-6 routes would be more efficient.
If the X-boat network has a route which isn't efficient for
jump-4, why is that and why would it not apply to a jump-6
network.  (if politics prevented
optimal X-boat routing, the same forces would be at work
on jump-6 routes).

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:31:30 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: various stuff

Kevin R. Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Kinda reminds me about that post earlier this summer about a planetary Navy  that skipped out when the Old Regime got overthrown.  I could see them renting out the skipped boats as star mercs to support the 
Government in Exile, who the PCs are supposed to hit...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I see a folio plot coming up here...

>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think I wrote that...

and didn't keep a copy of it...or did, and didn't find it when someone else mentioned
it. Does anyone have a copy of the post I sent on the formation of a pirate fleet
from the planetary navy of Colchis? I'd like it for my idea folder.

Thanks,

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:57:11 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Uplifted Turkeys & the Muppet factor  

Catherine Tannenbaum writes:
 
>Paul you are such a pig. You took that from me and posted it. No fare.
                                                                  ^^^^
   So you aren't going to pay him because he stole your line?

>Hey someone tell him just because he lives with me (most of the time) 
>doesn't mean he can post my wise cracks here. 

   Paul, just because you live with Cathy and she isn't going to pay you
doesn't mean that you can post her wisecracks.

>PIGS in SPACE, I loved that. What an awsome uplift. Anyone remember 
>the name of the ship?

   The Swinetrek, captained by Link Hogthrob.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:51:46 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Repatriation Bonds

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I can see this too.  And IIRC, the bond *is* made out to 'bearer'.  But, also, 
IIRC, if the mercs *win*, they don't *NEED* the repatriation bond, since their 
employers pay their way out again.  Repatriation bonds are used by the 
*losing* merc unit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Repatriation bonds are a common part of any off-world contract, there
to provide an assurance that the bearer will have transportation to some
destination at the end of a work contract - this to keep some ethically
challenged employer from marooning workers at a job site when they've
completed their assignments. Without such bonds, it would be very
difficult to get off-world talent to help out on all manner of projects,
from suppressing a rebellion to building a new hydroelectric plant.

A colony world might willingly pay to have dangerous mercenaries
go away - but think how much a qualified engineer is worth to a new
colony. It might be very tempting to "encourage" him to stay, say
with a carefully arranged criminal entrapment + fine to make him too
poor to afford a ticket home. "So sorry chap, guess you're stuck here
until you can earn another KCr20. Tell you what, I've got this pumping
station that needs designing, I'll give you Cr50 for the work..."

In the case I was talking about, the merc company in question doesn't
have their own interstellar transport and so are cashing in their bonds
to get off-planet. They are leaving as a group, new recruits and all,
and basically challenging the local government to complain about it.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 03:12:46 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Get Outta Jail Cards

> > ObTrav: Would there be incidents when Imperial troops were convicted by
> > system courts but the Imperium could ignore the situation?
> 
> Obvious case would be when the troops were tried and convicted of blasphemy
> or other religious crime on a religious dictatorship world.  Since freedom
of (and
> *FROM*) religion is an Imperial 'gimme', expect the Impies to pull their
guys out
> of hock before they serve more than a night in jail.

I'm not so sure.  That could allow Imperial personnel to skirt nearly *any*
law on any planet w/ a theocratic type govt (which can fit w/ a whole lot of
UWP govts... not just D and E).  I like the idea that any crime against a
memberworld led to a trial in an Imperial court (or magistrate, whatever).  If
that Imperial judiciary judges the crime frivolous or some such (or due to
corruption/bribery/etc), then the suspect is freed, possibly damaging
relations w/ the memberworld.  If the Imperial judiciary judges the crime to
be w/ merit (also possibly due to corrpution/bribery/etc), then the suspect
might well experience a gulag or burning at the stake (if a capital crime),
whatever.

I also like the idea that the local Imperial noble is the representative and
judge of law... (A duke saying something like... "In the name of the Emperor,
and the Archduke and the (Sector) Duke, I give you the power to dispense
justice and the right to bear nukes..." etc). Gives them barons and baronets
(and maybe knights) something... fuedal'esque... to do (and something to do
period).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 03:12:43 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: [OT] Re: Thanksgiving (USA)

> >He did put USA in his subject header and by the nature of the subject, and
the
> >subject is pretty easy to get the gist of.  Maybe an [OT] would've been
> >appropriate...  Or are you just trolling?
> 
> Hmm. It's really easy to filter it out of the Digest. not.

I read the digest too.  I used to read the www pages when they existed... any
chance of these coming back Mr. Miracle?  

I skip over lots of off-topic garbage (and alot of on-topic info, too), if the
subject doesn't appeal to me (like piracy, for ex).  I like B5, so don't lump
that in there.  The response to the original just seemed like so much
trolling... Traveller is a game written primarily by Americans, primarily for
American consumers.  Give a note on some holiday in your country and you're
not likely to be the recipient of such a troll, if there's any mention of it
at all.  If anything, I might be interested in inserting it somewhere in the
New Era.

Ob Trav, Pre-collapse, of course, did the Solomani ever strenuously object to
the presence of the mention of the root of Imperial holidays?  Would SolSec
have arranged a flaming of the mention as irrelevant to the Confederation?
How bout the Vilani to Terran/Solomani holidays in the 3I?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:39:28 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Amish in Space

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> Ob Traveller: the Great Amish in Space thread covers this nicely. Besides; I
> think that Judaism will probably get assimilated into Christianity by 5600AD
> and it will be a moot point :-(

 IMTU, both Christianity and Judaism rejoin with their brothers in Islam. (The
funny
this was the more I studied the more I leaned toward Islam, and/or Orthodox
Chistianity). I have the more extreme sects making up some of the more vocal
factions.

- --
Ave et vale.
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 03:24:36 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Kinda off topic - WW2 sub stuff

>Ob Trav. How much of the Imperial History has been propagandised pro or anti
>Imperial?


Most of it.  It would be almost foolish to believe otherwise.  I'm sure that
the Office of Calender Compliance goes over all of the historical media in
order to make sure it's in line with certain standards.  The Calendar
Compliance guys are extremely scary if you take a good, long look at them...

Anyway, I'm sure that Imperial children are taught how Cleon built an empire
from chaos through feats of heroism...  While in reality, the 3I was built
for purely economic reasons. The 3I actually tried to start wars on many
planets in order to make them better customers.  They stepped in with
military force when planets couldn't be swayed by other means...

I'm sure that's not the way it's printed in "The History of the Third
Imperium, 223rd ed. revised".

In "The Kinunir" we have Imperial forces who take political prisoners and
routinely torture them. Ine Giver died after being tortured in Imperial
custody.

I'm sure that the Imperium has looked the other way a number of times for
the megacorps, for profitable member worlds...

"What, that Droyne colony refuses to move from that ore-rich mountain
range?"

The 3I are not a bunch of nice guys. At times, some leaders might do good
things. It doesn't mean that the Imperium won't rewrite history to cover its
own ass.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 01:30:39 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace

...
>IMTU, Naval Intellegence is a shadowy and very deadly organization.  They
>will kill to protect the Emperor's secrets.

  The danger is that they might also wish to kill to protect their own secrets -
which may not coincide with the Imperiums...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:20:32 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Density (gearheads alert)

In message <36601958.BCA8449E@pharmacy.arizona.edu>, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes
>Also includes one spool dental floss in the glove box. Approximately 15 cm is
>used to hang the fuzzy dice from the rear-view mirror. Another 60 cm is in use
>bundling up several hoses on the powerplant to keep them from rubbing.

Waxed or unwaxed, and with or without fluoride?
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:34:06 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: PE Spreadsheet

I'm currently developing a Pocket Empires PBEM game (no I'm not looking for 
players, yet) and for it I'm developing a spreedsheet to handle the economic 
calculations. If anybody would like a copy please email me (its in Excel 5.0 
format at present). Also I'm having some problems working in resource demand 
(see, there is an ulterior motive) and would appreciate any ideas on how to 
handle it.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 01:59:08 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: The Decline and Fall of the Third Imperium (was Re: Jump-6 courier networks)

I have been thinking about the discrepancy between the possibility of
J-6 information dissemination and the Imperiums's use of the J-4 (and
inefficently laid out) X boat network.

It occured to me that at some point in the past the Imperium was not
capable of J-6 and at some point farther in the past was not capable of
J-5.  Therefore at some time in the past Imperial officials were getting
their urgent information by J-4 fast courier while the "commoners" were
getting their information by the (also Jump 4) X boat network.  Let's
take a look at what happened then.

"The express boat (abreviated Xboat) system, established origionally in
624 and expanded to cover the entire Imperium by 718". (MT ImpEnc p 24)

"Tech Level Notes	The Third Imperium

	Year	TL	Jump Capability (added for clarity)
	300	13	4
	700	14	5
       1000	15	6
(MT RefComp p34)

Therefore we know that when the establishment of the Xboat network began
in 624 the Imperium was not capable of anything better than Jump 4, they
apparently built the Xboat network to as high a capability as they
could. (I note that it's construction was ordered by Arbellatra who
certainally would have experienced problems with communication lags when
she was leading Imperial forces in the Second Frontier War and later as
she ended the Civil War).

The Imperium progressed to TL 14 (and Jump 5) around 700, before the
Xboat network was complete in 718.  Therefore at the time of its
completion the Xboat network was already "obsolete".  Let us take a look
at what happened in the Imperium between 718 and 1000 (when TL 15 and
Jump 6 were developed and the elite could now use J6 communications).

We know that during this period the Imperium was turning inward. "With
the end of the antebellum [ending 604] period the Imperium turned more
attention inward and devoted resources to internal development
[including x boat netwoks] and consolidation." (MT ImpEnc p 18).  We
know that the Imperium averted (or at least theat they believe they
averted) a war with the Zhodani that was to take place circa 810 or 820
by suppressing the Psionics Institutes who were (purportedly) heavily
Zhodhani influenced. (MT ImpEnc pg 50).  We know that the Psionics
Suppressions went far farther than the Imperium thought they would and
created such a strong public distaste for Psionics that Imperial use of
Psionics for Intelligence purposes was hindered (op cit).  We know that
the Psionics Suppressions were the result of a (overly successful)
Psychohistory project. (op cit)

We know that the Third Frontier War (979 to 986) occured during this
period.  We know that the Imperium did so poorly in this war that the
Emperor Styryx _resigned_ [or possibly "resigned"].  Stryx was the first
Emperor to resign in 900 years [Since Cleon II in 54.]  While Emperor's
had been killed since then none had resigned.  What does it say about
the Imperium then that an Emperor resigned?  This war tired the Imperium
out & made the Solomani War more difficult  "Exhausted, however, by the
Third Frontier War the Imperium was unable to complete the process." [CT
Sup 8 p 39]


 We know that during this period a large chunk of the Imperium, The
Solomani Autonomous Region, was given control a great deal of freedom
"...broad powers of authority.  For two hundred years the Imperium
effectively ignored the region and concentrated instead on its coreward
frontiers."  (MT ImpEnc p 37).  We know that this did not turn out well
and that the regions charter was revoked.  We know that the Sphere
resisted reintegration into the Imperium and that the Solomani Rim War
(990 - 1002) began.  At the very end of this war the Imperium reached Tl
15 (and Jump 6).  We know that this war was eventually "won" by the
Imperium at a high cost and with their origional goal of reintegrating
the entire sphere into the Imperimum not attained.  In fact only 25% of
the Sphere was reintegrated. [CT Sup8 p39]

All this evidence suggests that the period 700 to 1,000 was a bad time
for the Imperium.  It suggests that the Imperial government had a hard
time controlling the Imperial people.  During this period the Imperium
lost whole Sectors to the Solomani, was exhausted by a war with the
(technologically inferior) Zhodani, and lost control over its own anti
Psionics campaigns.

Is it possible that some of the reason why the Imperium was so shaky
during this period the fact that the elite (with Jump5 communications)
did not have enough lead time on the Jump4 communications the
"commoners" enjoyed to be able to control their society.

Is it possible that maybe the invention of the Jump6 drive was greated
with a "Thank [insert dieties name here] now we will have twice as much
advance notice of the "news" and can finally _do_ something?

Is it possible that in the next 100 years or so the efforts of the
elites to "do something" are what created the social climate in which
the Rebellion could occur?

Comments are welcomed.  The title for this post was, of course, lifted
from Gibbon.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:22:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: various stuff (german uboats)

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>  Interestingly, the British legal system came fairly close to formulating
>a doctrine this past week that may have meant that Doenitz (as Hitlers
>successor as head of state) wouldn't have been liable to be held responsible
>for any of his actions (well, responsible, but not answerable to any foreign
>legal sanction).

The Law Lords ruled he is liable to extradition. However, the final
decision rests with the Home Secretary (a politician) who is taking
submissions at the moment until Monday and will decide whether Pinochet
gets to fly to Spain or to Chile.

>  Wouldn't that tick off your typical Trav gang of terrorists, er, PC's,
>sent to off some ex-dictator enjoying his ill-gotten gains, only to find
>that the Imperial authorities consider him to be an all-round swell guy
>and deserving of wall to wall security?

Yep ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:01:48 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Imperium - a query.

Last weekend, I wrote a query about Imperium from the Vilani perspective
that several of you were kind enough to answer. In preparation for the
second war I've been re-reading the rules, and wanted to check a point.

If you land an Outpost in a primary system, am I correct in thinking that
it only becomes a full 'world' counter after 5 turns of peace? The rules
don't seem to state this implicitly, but hint at it in the 'peace time'
rules.

(It's strange - having been played Imperium recently, I started to re-read
FFW (partly because I was looking at IS the other day) and started to think
'how complicated' compared to Imperium. I don't think it is really, but :-(
How long does the average game of FFW take? I'm curious as I thought
Imperium would be faster than it was (it took most of an afternoon to fight
4 turns + 6 peace turns) and it involves getting the other players over
here to have a go.)

Thanks in advance,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:33:48 +0000
From: Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Terran Languages in the 3I

On Tue, Nov 24, 1998 at 10:31:34PM -0500, Walter Smith wrote:
> Wayne Ewart wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >Given all that, I'd go with French
> >as more likely to survive.
> 
> 
> it will survive but it will not be the French we barely know now
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Try reading Chaucer sometime - or even, to a lesser extent, Shakespeare.
> These are  English, and much closer in time to us than the 1100's Third 
> Imperium.

Well Chaucer is still readable (just), now if you had said Beowulf.
Anyway I believe languages are not evolving so fast because there
are books, radio and even TV reinforcing and spreading current
usage.  What I believe we will see is a lot of pidgin languages.

Looking at the european languages we have a very interesting picture.
We have English, Spanish, French, Portugese and German as important
languages.  Can all these survive as major world languages, considering
that the EU will tend to pull closer together over the next 50 years,
maybe resulting in a United States of Europe.

Some points to note 
Even in some Francophone African countries, English is used for large 
scale commerce as well as for diplomacy.
French is the main foreign language that is taught in British schools.

This means a very precarious position for French.  Which will seem to
indicate that it will drop out of being a major language.  I believe
a Spanish/Portugese hybrid may result over the long run.  English will
obviously survive as it is the language of two of the G5 nations, plus
spoken widely in the Commonwealth.  German is in even worse shape than
French, apart from the native speakers (which being in Northern Europe
are in countries with stable population) I cannot see the language
increasing its share of the world's total.

If I had to pick 4 languages at the moment it would have to be English,
Spanish, Arabic and Cantonese.  Yes I do know about the languages spoken
on the subcontinent, and have worked with many Indians.  They have
indicated that for high tech ventures (they were computer programmers)
English is at least as prevalent as Hindi, Urdu and Bengali.

I hope I haven't beaten up too much on your language, all of the above
should be read as IMHO and YMMV.

- -- 
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.dircon.co.uk
"... January is your third most common month for madness" - _Sarah Canary_

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:14:45 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Some Questions...

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
>_sustained_ good times, i.e., over several generations, _seem_ to lead
>to higher marrying age, fewer children later in life, etc.  This is
>observed
>in the industrialized countries.  Certainly there are a great many other
>factors and we only have one place to examine data from, but the trend
>is increasingly evident.

Actually, you also have to look at the difference between urban and rural
birth rates. On the farm kids are and economic asset, in town (especially
with child labour laws) they are an economic burden. Historically, urban
population growth is driven by immigration from the country.  

Was just reading (in either the Manchester Guardian or Scientific
American) that Bangladesh has seen a really significant drop in birth
rate, which seems attributable directly to teaching women that they don't
_have_ to have babies. At least, there haven't been significant economic
changes during the 15 years that the rate has dropped.

A really good source for population modelling is "How to Build a Future"
by John Barnes, anthologized in _Writing Science Fiction and Fantasy_
edited by Stan Schmidt.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:02:02 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct?

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> 
> I've recently been reading Dickson's "Dorsai" series, and in a
> couple of places, reference is made to the Mercenary's Code,
> a.k.a. the Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct.  One can get
> an idea of some of what the MC/PSCC says from the references to
> it; for example, one article prohibits the killing of POWs or
> innocent civilians, another allows summary execution of soldiers
> who fail to obey orders, and so on.  It also appears to grant
> certain rights, such as for the line troops to vote on and demand
> that the officers lead them in a certain action.
> 
> Would such a PSCC actually exist IaTU?  If so, can we work up the
> text?

A while back my players formed a mercenary team. They only did it with
the purpose of getting exotic weaponry, but I gave them a copy of a
document I cobbled together called "So You're Running A Mercenary
Outfit". IMTU, it's published by the Imperial Association of
Professional Combatants", a.k.a. the Merc Guild.

I put it together out of a few posts I'd seen on the TML regarding
mercenary conduct.

If anyone wants a copy, let me know. It's in Word format.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 14:22:20 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Query

>...
>>Megalodon (FR Mothership)	MN-R755663-109900-09009-0		MCr8118.15		100Ktons
>
>  For eight BCr, this is _ten_ Kt, right? :)
>

        Ooops.  Supposed to be MCr81,118.15, or BCr81.1.  Fingeritis.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:32:15 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: Efate & TNS entries

	Go to:

members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller

	You'll find TNS entries there up to about 1123 or so.

There's some info in the old digests about Efate too (popular site...)

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:02:02 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: j6 Xboats in canon

BTW for everyone discussing the viability of a J6 X-boat link, I suggest
that you look in the TNS entries at the start of the FFW rules. These
actually mention the Imperium is about to implement a J6 network.

Of course, the impact of the FFW on this is never discussed.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:57:07 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Skimming from stars

Dan Eveland asked:

>Is a red giant's outer portions cool enough and dense enough to
>skim fuel from?

The coolest stars have a surface temperature of around 2350 C. This is well
above the melting point of most metals and above the boiling point of many.
 If I were going to try it, I wouldn't tell my life insurance agent.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:57:13 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Smuggling

>>Slow communications means big headaches in trying to correlate
>>differing reports coming at different times by different
>>routes.
  
>I'm not sure that this is a given, as the work I've done isn't
>really similar enough for me to say. We do know that these
>problems have been handled before without computer technologies,
>however.

It's not that hard to visualize. Take four worlds, each connected with two
others but not all the same number of jumps apart. Send a message from one,
have it rebroadcast to all neighbors (except the originating world) and
watch the duplicates appear. Add another world connected to any two of the
first four, and let one of the worlds modify the message, and now watch
overlapping duplicates of the original and modified message appear.

>Delayed collation of shipping reports over as little as a
>subsector will take weeks just to collect and longer to verify.

>  Granted, although I'm unsure where "verify" comes into it.

   You aren't going to add a ship to a watch list the first time you see a
discrepancy between what it was carrying and what it should have been
carrying appears, are you? If you do that, before long every ship in space
is going to be on somebody's watch list from human error alone.
   If you have to wait until you have responses to requests for 
information from other worlds, the delay stretches by at least 2 weeks per
jump assuming immediate responses and no waits for couriers. That adds up
to months fast.

   "Who cares that the Lutalin Countess was suspected of selling
grav modules without proof of ownership on Erir six months ago?
Where is Erir, anyway? The next subsector over? How do they know
it wasn't a clerical error?  I've certainly never seen any ship
with that name: we only get one in every other week or so and
most of those are our regulars. I don't ever expect to see her if
she's been operating over there. We could use a cheap grav module or three
bad enough that we might not ask where they came from, either.
You can say about the same for all seven thousand other entries on 
your watch list, too."
  
>unless the info is being double-checked for a prosecution -

If you don't have enough evidence for a prosecution, why issue a
warrant? What happens to respect for the MoJ when a substantial
percentage of warrants don't hold up in court?

   So, IYTU are anti-smuggling laws 1) made and enforced by
worlds, 2) made by the Imperium and enforced by worlds, 3) made
by worlds and enforced by the Imperium, or 4) made and enforced
by the Imperium?
   IMTU it's the first. The Imperium largely ignores smuggling
and fencing (except of slaves, nukes, and Imperial property)
Detailed tracking of interstellar merchandise might work for building a
case against an organization with a fixed base of operations, but IMHO
there are better ways to combat petty piracy.
  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1210
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Sunday, November 29 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1211



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Smuggling
Trading and starship economics
Re: Imperial Get Outta Jail Cards
Re: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct?
Re: Jump-6 courier network
re communications (was Re: Smuggling)
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Smuggling
Re: jump-6 courier network
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: [OT] Re: Thanksgiving=?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=28USA=29=0D?=
Re: Efate
Re: Braintaping in G:T
Re: Smuggling
Re: exotic assasin weapons anyone?
Population Growth Rates

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:57:05 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Smuggling

>   So, IYTU are anti-smuggling laws 1) made and enforced by
>worlds, 2) made by the Imperium and enforced by worlds, 3) made
>by worlds and enforced by the Imperium, or 4) made and enforced
>by the Imperium?
>   IMTU it's the first. The Imperium largely ignores smuggling
>and fencing (except of slaves, nukes, and Imperial property)
>Detailed tracking of interstellar merchandise might work for building a
>case against an organization with a fixed base of operations, but IMHO
>there are better ways to combat petty piracy.
>  
        Such a Q-Ships.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:22:41 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Trading and starship economics

I've seen a fair amount of discussion on the list dealing with starship
economics and trading rules.  I don't have anything from CT, and I don't
much care for the MT-TNE-T4 version since it doesn't differentiate between
bulk iron ore and jump drive components. 
I'm sure this has been debated for years now, but can any of the veterans
of discussion on this subject summarize the debate for me?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:46:46 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Imperial Get Outta Jail Cards

On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:58:49 -0500, TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>> > ObTrav: Would there be incidents when Imperial troops were convicted by
>> > system courts but the Imperium could ignore the situation?
 
>> Obvious case would be when the troops were tried and convicted of blasphemy
>> or other religious crime on a religious dictatorship world.  Since freedom of (and
>> *FROM*) religion is an Imperial 'gimme', expect the Impies to pull their guys out
>> of hock before they serve more than a night in jail.

>I'm not so sure.  That could allow Imperial personnel to skirt nearly *any*
>law on any planet w/ a theocratic type govt (which can fit w/ a whole lot of
>UWP govts... not just D and E).  I like the idea that any crime against a
>memberworld led to a trial in an Imperial court (or magistrate, whatever).  If
>that Imperial judiciary judges the crime frivolous or some such (or due to
>corruption/bribery/etc), then the suspect is freed, possibly damaging
>relations w/ the memberworld.  If the Imperial judiciary judges the crime to
>be w/ merit (also possibly due to corrpution/bribery/etc), then the suspect
>might well experience a gulag or burning at the stake (if a capital crime),
>whatever.

>I also like the idea that the local Imperial noble is the representative and
>judge of law... (A duke saying something like... "In the name of the Emperor,
>and the Archduke and the (Sector) Duke, I give you the power to dispense
>justice and the right to bear nukes..." etc). Gives them barons and baronets
>(and maybe knights) something... fuedal'esque... to do (and something to do
>period).

There's actually a potential third alternative to this:  The
Imperial Magistrate trying the case can find that there is a
violation of local law, but that, inasmuch as the offender is an
Imperial citizen and offworlder, not fully cognizant of local
mores, it is deemed inappropriate to submit the accused to local
justice, and that therefore the accused is to be deported from
planetary jurisdiction as /persona non grata/ for a period of at
least x and not more than y, and that such local conviction be
entered on the accused's permanent Imperial records.

The accused doesn't "skate", as there is now a record that will
follow him, but does not necessarily suffer penalties from a
system where the punishment far exceeds what is warranted.
Further, once PNGed, even after the deportation period has
expired, the planet can keep its own records, and refuse entry
even beyond that.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:49:24 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct?

On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:58:49 -0500, Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
 
>> I've recently been reading Dickson's "Dorsai" series, and in a
>> couple of places, reference is made to the Mercenary's Code,
>> a.k.a. the Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct.  One can get
>> an idea of some of what the MC/PSCC says from the references to
>> it; for example, one article prohibits the killing of POWs or
>> innocent civilians, another allows summary execution of soldiers
>> who fail to obey orders, and so on.  It also appears to grant
>> certain rights, such as for the line troops to vote on and demand
>> that the officers lead them in a certain action.
 
>> Would such a PSCC actually exist IaTU?  If so, can we work up the
>> text?

>A while back my players formed a mercenary team. They only did it with
>the purpose of getting exotic weaponry, but I gave them a copy of a
>document I cobbled together called "So You're Running A Mercenary
>Outfit". IMTU, it's published by the Imperial Association of
>Professional Combatants", a.k.a. the Merc Guild.

>I put it together out of a few posts I'd seen on the TML regarding
>mercenary conduct.

>If anyone wants a copy, let me know. It's in Word format.

Send it on...


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:35:33 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

David P. Summers writes:

>Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:58:56, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>

>>I'd put jump-6 at more like 50-100% more than jump-4, and worth every penny.
> 
>Well, the question is why?

Because in any trading culture advance knowledge of trends and events is
valuable. You know, worth money. The company who routinely gets its news
a day earlier than its rivals is the one that will do the best in the
long run.

>Because you think there will be some sort of extra efficiency in how
>intermediate stops will be placed? There is no reason why jump-6 routes
>would be more efficient.

The most efficient would of course be a network that used X-boats of the
appropiate jump capacity for whatever leg it was used on. You don't need
to replace the whole network to improve the performance considerably.
Simply adding a few core to border jump-6 runs and maybe a few crosslinks
too will do wonders for a very modest price.

>If the X-boat network has a route which isn't efficient for jump-4, why is
>that

Because the X-boats links were fixed by random die-rolls without any
subsequent reality checks and are exactly as plausible as you'd expect
from such a procedure.

>...and why would it not apply to a jump-6 network. (if politics prevented
>optimal X-boat routing, the same forces would be at work on jump-6 routes).

OTOH, if a jump-6 network was based on linking all subsector capitals in
the most efficient way then it would be both plausible and much more
efficient than the present X-boat network. And whaddya know, such a system
must exist, given the assumption that the Imperial Admiralty and the
sector admirals are actually interested in exerting the greatest possible
control over the Navy. Of course, you're free to assume that the Admiralty
and the sector admirals don't give a damn, but I'm free to think what I
like about that notion.

Peter Newman writes:

>Is it possible that some of the reason why the Imperium was so shaky
>during this period the fact that the elite (with Jump5 communications)
>did not have enough lead time on the Jump4 communications the
>"commoners" enjoyed to be able to control their society.

The trouble with the X-boat network is not that it still exists, but that
MT claims that (with the exception of the Emperor himself) the elite still
uses it, thus NOT getting the advantage you're talking about.

>Is it possible that maybe the invention of the Jump6 drive was greated
>with a "Thank [insert dieties name here] now we will have twice as much
>advance notice of the "news" and can finally _do_ something?

Not if you believe that the elite uses the same communication system as
the hoi polloy.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:36:38 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re communications (was Re: Smuggling)

>From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
...
>watch the duplicates appear. Add another world connected to any two of the
>first four, and let one of the worlds modify the message, and now watch
>overlapping duplicates of the original and modified message appear.

  If the original message (content & identifier) is unchanged then 
duplicates are ignored as they accumulate; modified messages are new
messages for such a filing system, otherwise the system is a nightmare.

...
>   You aren't going to add a ship to a watch list the first time you see a
>discrepancy between what it was carrying and what it should have been
>carrying appears, are you? If you do that, before long every ship in space
>is going to be on somebody's watch list from human error alone.

  The main point a confirming info stream is to eventually be able to either
corroborate claimed activities and/or to identify anomalies - ships that were
not where they claimed they were, were ID'd in two places simultaneoously (?),
or claimed at different times to be in different places (which may or may not
be practical depending on how logs, etc., work). Thus, adding ships to watch
lists for minor errors is not the point, IMHO.

>   If you have to wait until you have responses to requests for 
>information from other worlds, the delay stretches by at least 2 weeks per
>jump assuming immediate responses and no waits for couriers. That adds up
>to months fast.

  You shouldn't be sending requests for specific information unless
you have real suspicions, which would presumably be handled by the
appropriate investigators (OC, a big port may have such staff in their
security department merely for thei own protection).

>   "Who cares that the Lutalin Countess was suspected of selling
>grav modules without proof of ownership on Erir six months ago?
...

  i) the IN (/INI) isn't that parochial, ii) the above is the worst
case of short-sighted administration, and is likely relatively rare
in most TU's. Most people agree that utter dumps like your example
(1 ship/week - bet it ain't big, either) are where such activities
would have a good chance of long-term viability.

>If you don't have enough evidence for a prosecution, why issue a
>warrant? What happens to respect for the MoJ when a substantial
>percentage of warrants don't hold up in court?

  I guess it would be simpler to assume that everyone charged is
guilty, but some people might run campaigns where legal errors do
occur - remember, it's only in real life that lawyers are perfect :)

>   So, IYTU are anti-smuggling laws 1) made and enforced by
>worlds, 2) made by the Imperium and enforced by worlds, 3) made
>by worlds and enforced by the Imperium, or 4) made and enforced
>by the Imperium?

  I'd go with #1, but the Imperium provides support for enforcement
as it makes its' own security work much more efficient - and of course
a ship that makes serious trouble with a world can then be flagged for
the In to have a chat with.

...
>Detailed tracking of interstellar merchandise might work for building a
>case against an organization with a fixed base of operations, but IMHO
>there are better ways to combat petty piracy.

  I'd have thought that a (largely computerized) shipping data collation
system would be the most cost-effective way of indicating a variety of
internal and external security threats. What alternatives do you feel 
provide superior effectiveness or efficiency? Also, what's the practical
and legal difference between "petty" piracy and the run of the mill "we
maybe kill some people and steal a MCr 60 [$US 1990? 120 million?] ship"
sort of piracy?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:54:04 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network
...
>There may be J-6 couriers between the Capital and Mora.  However,

  If there's not J-5 or J-6 traffic between major (hi-pop/hi-tech) worlds
then there's either a political reason or the inhabitants of the 3I are
simply too stupid to be believed. Either the big organizations have their
own couriers or they use another service with similar performance whether
it's private or Imperial. If the megacorps use their own, then "smaller"
corps (sector-wides, etc.) will still be able to support a private courier
service between their own sector and Capital (for example).

...
>I don't think they are sending every smuggling advisory out
>on a jump-6 courier.

  I have to wonder if some people simply have too much invested in being
unwilling to admit the possibility. It does look odd when Hortalez et Cie
is happy with their internal commo trickling along at 2.6 parsecs/week,
doesn't it?

  BTW, if the IN has "one or two" couriers available for when news of the
start of hostilities reaches them, then they are _f$%ked_. A sector HQ
that can't deploy J-6 couriers to all it's constituent fleets in one push
is not being run by sapient life forms.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:56:13 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Smuggling

Thad Coons writes:

>It's not that hard to visualize. Take four worlds, each connected with two
>others but not all the same number of jumps apart. Send a message from one,
>have it rebroadcast to all neighbors (except the originating world) and
>watch the duplicates appear.

How many duplicates of this messages did you get? I know that sometimes the
Internet breaks down and we do get multiple messages, but mostly we don't.
Why should an network based on a couple of thousand years of maturing that
sort of technology be any less efficient?

>  You aren't going to add a ship to a watch list the first time you see a
>discrepancy between what it was carrying and what it should have been
>carrying appears, are you? If you do that, before long every ship in space
>is going to be on somebody's watch list from human error alone.

That's not the way it has to work. IMO it would be much more likely that
someone would collect all these reports at the subsector level and analyse
it. I think it would be an IN intelligence analyst, but it could also be
someone working for an insurance company (actually, it would be both...
and a slew of colleagues). After a while he'd be convinced that the
Lutalin Countess was a wrong un', and if he is any good at his work, he'll
be right. He may not be able to prove it, but he'll know. If he is able
to prove it (and sometimes he will be) he passes the info along to the
appropiate agency and a warrant is issued. If he can't, the LC is placed
on the watch list and gets special attention for a while. Maybe then
requests for extra documentation is sent out and if it takes a few months
to get the replies back, so what? It's not like any government bureau I've
ever heard about has ever destroyed any records... ;-)

>>unless the info is being double-checked for a prosecution -
> 
>If you don't have enough evidence for a prosecution, why issue a warrant?

Well, assuming the Imperium has the same standards of justice as the USA
of the 20th Century, they wouldn't issue a warrant until they thought they
had proof. But who says the Imperium's standard of proof is as rigorous as
that of the US? maybe Imperial justice don't work that way. Maybe you don't
need to prove anything 100% but merely convince an Imperial noble to sign
a warrant?

>What happens to respect for the MoJ when a substantial percentage of
>warrants don't hold up in court?

I think you can be pretty sure that a substantial percentage of MoJ warrants
will be upheld in court. What we can't be sure is that they would have been
upheld in an American court.
 
>So, IYTU are anti-smuggling laws 1) made and enforced by worlds, 2) made by
>the Imperium and enforced by worlds, 3) made by worlds and enforced by the
>Imperium, or 4) made and enforced by the Imperium?

1) and 4). Mostly 1), but there will be some items that the Imperium bans.

>The Imperium largely ignores smuggling and fencing (except of slaves, nukes,
>and Imperial property) Detailed tracking of interstellar merchandise might
>work for building a case against an organization with a fixed base of
>operations, but IMHO there are better ways to combat petty piracy.

Any crime that requires a multi-megacredit tool to perform is more than
petty.
   

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:14:17 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: jump-6 courier network

...
>>I'd put jump-6 at more like 50-100% more than jump-4, and worth every penny.
>
>Well, the question is why?  Because you think there will be some
>sort of extra efficiency in how intermediate stops will be placed?
>There is no reason why jump-6 routes would be more efficient.

  I'm not sure about that. When I was looking at the Marches map for
hypothetical JumpExpress routes it became evident that while not all
links were most economic as J-6 (at least for message carriers) that
the higher jump numbers not only cover greater distances and are less
likely to have to waste a week making a short jump, but that the higher
jump values can mitigate the above failings by zig-zagging to use their
excess legs on a given run to ensure that as many segments as possible
include a relatively profitable system to stop in.

  IAC, the X-boat routes on the SM map (forEx) are massively useless,
and can pretty much provably be all but replaced by private couriers,
which would leave the Xboats as the spine of a "postal service" type
system ignored by almost all high priority traffic.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:16:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

David P. Summers writes:

>Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:35:49 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>>>Yes, you do. You can come up with routes for such couriers that leave out
>>>most systems (even compared to X-boat routes).
> 
>>Sure you can. And it won't make more than a week or two's difference at the
>>most.
> 
>But for many messages going jump -6 (and the basis for intermediate
>stops), a few weeks difference is exactly all you are saving.

That simply is not the case. Going from the core to any of the frontiers
you save much more than that.

>If it is important enough to set up a jump-6 system, then it will
>important in routing....

I don't understand that argument at all.
 
>>So you get priority mail delivered from Core to Mora at somewhere between
>>5 and 6 parsecs per week instead of the X-boat rate of 2.6 parsecs per week
>>(which, incidentally is an improvement of over 100% and not the 33% you've
>>been claiming).
> 
>I've been claiming 33% because that is what setting up a jump-6 system
>with the same kind of service the X-boats provide, will give you.

But i'm not talking about setting up a jump-6 system with the same kind of
service that the X-boats provide. I'm talking about setting up a system
that gives a vastly better service to sector and subsector capitals.
 
>Dedicated couriers (if you have enough of them so that you can pass messages
>on rather than have to go into the port to refuel) will beat and X-boat kind
>of system (a jump-4 courier can beat the X-boat system). But this is
>expensive (you have to have courier ships sitting around at each world on an
>optimum path between the two systems involved and not pick up mail at
>intermediate stops.)

Except for picking up from intermediate stops I agree with you. A courier
should be able to pick up messages just as fast as an X-boat.

>(You can mitigate the is if you swallow the lost in time it take to refuel
>and send one ship,

The delays can be reduced in exactly the same way the X-boat system reduces
delays.

>but you still have to take the optimum route and if you are going to
>use this for routine traffic, then you still need to have them
>go frequently and you still need a lot of them).

How frequently? Any more frequently than the X-boat network? No? That's
what I thought.

>Since you are only make stops at the world that happen to lie along the
>optimum path, it isn't that useful for messages from the important worlds
>the lie along the path.

So you pick up the messages the X-boat from the important world dropped off
a few days ago. They will still get almost anywhere faster than by X-boat
alone. 

>There may be J-6 couriers between the Capital and Mora.  However, the
>routine traffic of the Navy (assignments, standard orders, etc.) are going
>to go at X-boat speeds just fine.

Why should they? Is there any reason why the Admiralty would deliberately
send their messages by the slower alternative? I can't for the life of me
think why.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:18:36 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Thanksgiving=?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=28USA=29=0D?=

TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:
>Traveller is a game written primarily by Americans, primarily for
>American consumers.  

I always thought Traveller was a game written by science fiction gamers,
primarily for science fiction gamers.

I'll grant that a majority of authors have been American, and probably a
majority of readers as well, but there's a difference between a book being
read by a nationality and a book being written for a nationality.

After all, just look at the number of translations there are. Look at the
excellent work coming out of England, Norway, Finland, and Australia to
name a few countries with active Traveller writers. What about BITS, which
for a while was the _only_ active licensed Traveller publisher.

I'm probably reading too much into your phrasing. I just keep remembering
the IEEE convention when the chairman led everyone in the Pledge of
Allegiance before each session- at an international conference - when a
majority of participants weren't American...


ObTrav: Harvest holidays predate the Pilgrims - check out the seventeenth
century Book of Common Prayer, for example. Two questions for the
Traveller universe:

1) What purely local events get celebrated over larger areas, and why? Did
some Sylean patriot/bigot (depending on your viewpoint) in the Office of
Calendar Compliance seed the Imperial calendar with Sylean holidays?

2) Does anyone else keep track of local years as well as Imperial years?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:27:44 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Efate

Chris Seamans asks:

>Now, is there any established canon for Efate?


Here are my notes about Efate:

Size: Medium (8800-10400 km)
Atmosphere: Thin
Hydrographics: 60% water

Planetoid Belts: 1
Gas Giants: 0

Efate's sun is a K4 V with a habitable zone around orbit 1 (the 2nd orbit).
The system diagram in TZC shows two worlds closer to the sun than Efate. I
don't know if it's possible, but if it is, perhaps some rogue world got 
captured by the sun. The planetoid belt is not shown on the diagram.

Orbit   World

0.1     Enur
0.2     Jor
 1      Efate
 2      Stur
   ?      Solon              
 3      Llun
   ?      Kru
   ?      San
   ?      Tun
 4      Xxxx Belt

If one assumes a stellar luminosity factor of 0.611, then Efate has a base
temperature of 7.76 degree Celcius.

Efate is settled before 300 and is a member of the Imperium by then. In
300 the neighbouring Ukaye and not Efate is the end of the trade link
to Regina Subsector. [TA:15]

Library Data, 1105: Spinward connection in the vital express boat route 
leading to Jewell Subsector. Recently the site of continuing bitter anti-
Imperial guerilla activity. [TB:153]

An Ancient site consisting of a gridwork of thousands of walls spaced
about two meters apart and punctuated by extremely massive bulwarks
at random intervals is found in 354. [SA:37]

On 274-1105 the Traveller's Aid Society, following a recent firefight in 
the administrative capital that guts its class A facility there, closes
that facility and posts the planet as an Amber Zone. [JTAS4:4]

The main planetside starport on Efate is called Down-Franklin Starport.
[JTAS4:4]

Efate's northern continent is named Kormoran. [JTAS6:5]

General Shipyards has a yard here. It is capable of building starships of up 
to 600 tons, but usually it concentrates on doing annual maintenances. [IE:25]

There is a desert close to the Efate starport. [SOM:46]

The major cities on Efate in 1110 is named Anlisha, Makish, Kheker, Arden,
Irir, and Gasharr (Plus Efate Startown, but that contradicts JTAS4:4). [MT2]

UWPs:
1105: A646930-D/?; Naval base; Imperial Way station
1110: A646930-D/8;     -"-   ;         --"-- 
1117: A646930-D/8;     -"-   ;         --"--   
1202: A646A30-F/8;     -"-   ;         --"--       ; Zhodani refugee world


>Further, is there any infomation on how and/or why so many people live 
>on a smallish planet with a thin, tainted atmosphere?

Not AFAIK. Cynthia Higginbotham posted her version of Efate to the lest a long
time ago; you may be able to find it by digging through the archives. IIRC it
was pretty good, but not, of course, canonical.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:41:26 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Braintaping in G:T

>Yes, it doesn't (Unless you play G:T. Then, it is in UltraTech, so,
>Poof! Instant New Canon ;->).

Remember that Ultra Tech is a sourcebook, not a setting. Any setting or
game is free to use or prohibit whatever technologies appropriate to the
campaign. Page 107 of G:T says "Braintaping and regeneration rays are
unavailable".
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:19:38 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Smuggling

>  How does one reliably deceive an ID system that incorporates
>a full genetic work-up, within the constraints of known Trav tech?

You can do this with current tech. Invite someone with the desired security
access to a diplomatic function, gather some DNA from loose skin cells or a
drinking glass rim, and culture these cells. Put on a space suit, douse
yourself with some solvent to destroy any incriminating DNA, then
infiltrate the secure site and use the cultured cells for genetic ID.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:30:05 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: exotic assasin weapons anyone?

>>My favorite is the drone grav dart from Dune (I don't remember its
>>real name).  It's a very small drone vehicle, maybe a little bigger
>>than a fountain pen, with a sharp point, an anti-grav drive and a
>>relatively simple sensor suite (maybe just visual/IR).  It's remotely
>>controlled.  The operator tries to drive it into the target's body.  I
>>thought the sequence in the movie was very well done.
>>
>I'm sure that the description in the book and film is closer to:
>
>	A motion detector + IR + simple AI control
>
>(that AI as in the sort of AI we have in the real world now, not TL16)
>
>If a person was controlling something with a visual sensor, then lying
>very still would not be a good defence measure.

The assassin dart was portrayed as remotely-controlled in both the book and
movie. Automation is illegal in the Dune universe, and even the sort of AI
we have today would be blasphemous.

It was remotely-piloted but used a capacitive sensor that detected motion;
to avoid being detected it did not transmit visual signals. I don't know
why the Atreides couldn't dectect the controlling signal, but they
couldn't. The scene in the movie was taken from the dart's vantage point,
but it did not have a small TV camera any more than the arrows in Robin
Hood: Prince of Thieves did.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:45:16 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Population Growth Rates

Hi all,

Someone asked about population growth just a minute ago and I have a
question for all the biologists out there... presumably someowhere, out
there, there's a forumla for calculating population growth rates based
on factors like lifespan, reproductive rate, etc, etc. For exmple, I'd
like to compare the growth rate of two populations that differ only by
maximum lifespan or reproductive rate.

Could anyone either provide me with these formulae or references where I
could find the same info?

Thanks!
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1211
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 30 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1212



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: exotic assasin weapons anyone?
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1211
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: population growth rates
Re: Starship Economics/  Broken Frieght Rates
Re: Density (gearheads alert)
RE: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct
Re: Jump-6 courier network
RE: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Skimming from stars
Re: Languages in Traveller
Re: Languages in Traveller
Re: IG Liquidation
RE: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct
Re: IG Liquidation
Re: B5 Spoilers are Justified! (more OT fun)
AHL info
Trading Traveller Information

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 19:46:11 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: exotic assasin weapons anyone?

>>>My favorite is the drone grav dart from Dune (I don't remember its
>>>real name).  It's a very small drone vehicle, maybe a little bigger
>>>than a fountain pen, with a sharp point, an anti-grav drive and a
>>>relatively simple sensor suite (maybe just visual/IR).  It's remotely
>>>controlled.  The operator tries to drive it into the target's body.  I
>>>thought the sequence in the movie was very well done.
>>>
>>I'm sure that the description in the book and film is closer to:
>>
>> A motion detector + IR + simple AI control
>>
>>(that AI as in the sort of AI we have in the real world now, not TL16)
>>
>>If a person was controlling something with a visual sensor, then lying
>>very still would not be a good defence measure.
>
>The assassin dart was portrayed as remotely-controlled in both the book and
>movie. Automation is illegal in the Dune universe, and even the sort of AI
>we have today would be blasphemous.
>
>It was remotely-piloted but used a capacitive sensor that detected motion;
>to avoid being detected it did not transmit visual signals. I don't know
>why the Atreides couldn't dectect the controlling signal, but they
>couldn't. The scene in the movie was taken from the dart's vantage point,
>but it did not have a small TV camera any more than the arrows in Robin
>Hood: Prince of Thieves did.


they did, after the fact. the assassin was holed up in a wall with food for
some time just to kill Paul then kill him self

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:39:29 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:35:33 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>>I'd put jump-6 at more like 50-100% more than jump-4, and worth every penny.
>>
>>Well, the question is why?

>Because in any trading culture advance knowledge of trends and events is
>valuable. You know, worth money. The company who routinely gets its news
>a day earlier than its rivals is the one that will do the best in the
>long run.

I can be worth money, but is it worth the money to routinely get
info 33% quicker?  And how much traffic will that generate.
Remember, we have a culture built around instant communications.
A day makes a big difference when everyone gets info overnight,
but few people will pay that much more to get info at 8 AM
instead of 11 AM.  (Sure some will, most won't).

Similarly, were there networks of horse couriers and fast
ships just to carry messages in Renaissance?  Sure some
traders had such ships, but there weren't ships at every
port for just such messages (later the US had the pony
express, but that is actually noted because it was unusual
and it didn't try and be a system for general communications).

>>Because you think there will be some sort of extra efficiency in how
>>intermediate stops will be placed? There is no reason why jump-6 routes
>>would be more efficient.

>The most efficient would of course be a network that used X-boats of the
>appropiate jump capacity for whatever leg it was used on. You don't need
>to replace the whole network to improve the performance considerably.
>Simply adding a few core to border jump-6 runs and maybe a few crosslinks
>too will do wonders for a very modest price.

Yes, there are a number of things you could do if you were willing
skip intermediate stops even with jump-4.  And  doesn't involve
having two differnent kinds of ships.
>
>>If the X-boat network has a route which isn't efficient for jump-4, why is
>>that

>Because the X-boats links were fixed by random die-rolls without any
>subsequent reality checks and are exactly as plausible as you'd expect
>from such a procedure.

I you say so.  But then this really is an arguement for redoing
the X-boat network at Jump-4 rather than going to jump-6.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:45:56 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1211

>>I don't think they are sending every smuggling advisory out
>>on a jump-6 courier.

>  I have to wonder if some people simply have too much invested in being
>unwilling to admit the possibility.

I have to wonder if others aren't so enamoured of their idea
that they can't see that their arguements for it aren't as
definative as they thing.  It is always easy to think that the
other side of an arguement doesn't see things as well as you
do.

> It does look odd when Hortalez et Cie
>is happy with their internal commo trickling along at 2.6 parsecs/week,
>doesn't it?

For their routine traffic, not at all.

>  BTW, if the IN has "one or two" couriers available for when news of the
>start of hostilities reaches them, then they are _f$%ked_. A sector HQ
>that can't deploy J-6 couriers to all it's constituent fleets in one push
>is not being run by sapient life forms.

The idea was one or two at any major location.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:07:43 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

[Stuff already covered in other posts...]
>>but you still have to take the optimum route and if you are going to
>>use this for routine traffic, then you still need to have them
>>go frequently and you still need a lot of them).

>How frequently? Any more frequently than the X-boat network? No? That's
>what I thought.

That the point.  If you are putting up a network with the kind of
service that the Xboats show with the same kind of coverage you
are talking about a non-trivial cost.

>>Since you are only make stops at the world that happen to lie along the
>>optimum path, it isn't that useful for messages from the important worlds
>>the lie along the path.

>So you pick up the messages the X-boat from the important world dropped off
>a few days ago. They will still get almost anywhere faster than by X-boat
>alone.

The delay will be a week or two, that will mean that will be no
savings until past 12-24 parsecs.  After that the savings
will be modest until some distance.

>>There may be J-6 couriers between the Capital and Mora.  However, the
>>routine traffic of the Navy (assignments, standard orders, etc.) are going
>>to go at X-boat speeds just fine.

>Why should they? Is there any reason why the Admiralty would deliberately
>send their messages by the slower alternative? I can't for the life of me
>think why.

Why send their routine messages by a slow alternative?  Because
it's cheaper...

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:41:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Don Stark <stark@glacier.nrlssc.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: population growth rates

> Subject: Population Growth Rates
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Someone asked about population growth just a minute ago and I have a
> question for all the biologists out there... presumably someowhere, out
> there, there's a forumla for calculating population growth rates based
> on factors like lifespan, reproductive rate, etc, etc. For exmple, I'd
> like to compare the growth rate of two populations that differ only by
> maximum lifespan or reproductive rate.

What is really important here is the reproductive life span, i.e. how
many off-spring/lifetime, and child mortality rate. If you double the length
of time that a person can reproduce, then the total # of off-spring/lifetime 
could double (neglecting social impact). This number then grows geometrically,
like compounded interest.

> 
> Could anyone either provide me with these formulae or references where I
> could find the same info?
> 
You can look in a basic ode (ordinary differential equation) book for
predator-prey models.

Where P, the total population as a function of time t evolves as

P(t)= P(0) exp( [b-d]t )

where P(0) is the starting population, b is the birth rate, and d is the 
death rate. Make certain you use consistent units for both rates and the 
time. Notice that if b > d the population keeps growing with 
time, while if d > b everyone eventually dies off. Obviously this is 
a very simple model. It assumes off-spring are produced up until death.

So lets make things really simple with round numbers. If you were to choose 
a maximum life span to be 100 years. Call that one average lifetime. And
for a quarter of that time, say 25 years, you have one child every other year. 
Then the average birth rate is 12.5 children over a lifetime. Now over that 
same life time, 100% of the people alive at the beginning of that time
interval are dead. Then b=25, d=1 and t increments in leaps of 100 years.

Now say you want to think about the population change over a number of 
"lifetimes." Here is a quick and dirty calculation.

lifetime  starting pop    children      deaths   ending pop

   0          1             12.5          1        12.5
   1         12.5        12.5*(12.5)     12.5      156.25
   2         156.25         (12.5)^3     156.25   1953.125

Notice that by the end of 3(100) years, the death rates quickly become 
inconsequential to the births in this case.

Now it looks like what you really want is an age structured model,
which is a bit more involved, but hopefully the above will give you a general
idea.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                |                                   |
Don Stark                       |           ,/7_                    |
                                |          /   _`,                  |
Naval Research Lab, Code 7322   |         (.)\) \|_                 |
Bay St. Louis, MS 39529         |          0    /^~'                |
- --------------------------------|                                   |
e-mail: stark@nrlssc.navy.mil   |                                   |
- --------------------------------|                                   |
Phone: (228) 688-4151 work      |              ' )( `               |
       (228) 688-4759 fax       |   ~~~~~~~~~~~''  ``~~~~~~~~~~~~   |
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:57:07 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starship Economics/  Broken Frieght Rates

Joseph Kimball wrote:
>>>>>
>        RealWorld(tm), as of this afternoon with a rates war on in Halifax,
>Halifax to Antwerp,     2TFU (40' container) is 10 days and $1100USD, *at
>most*.
>That is on a G3 cargo ship.  Two new shipping firms just opened shop locally
>and are cutting everyone's throats to get containers.
>        Interesting paralell, neh?
>>>>>
>The 2TFU container is approximately equal to a 4 displacement ton container in
>Traveller according to conversion calculations I just made:
>(40ft)(1ft/12in)(39in/1m)(1.5m/CT deck plan square)(2 CT d.p.s./disp.ton)=4.1
>rounded to 4.   The length, height, and width of a 2TFU container are not
>metric, and are not designed with CT displacement tonnage in mind, but the
>conversion is close enough that comparing RealWorld(tm) container traffic to
>Traveller container traffic is not especially stretching to my "suspension of
>disbelief" capabilities.

Marks' Standard Handbook for Mewchanical Engineers states that the size
of these containers are 12.2m x 2.5m x 2.5m which is 76.25m^3 or 5.65
disp.tons (13.5m^3 /dT) or 5.44 dT (14m^3/dT)

In English units it is listed as 40ft x 8ft x 8ft 8in (outside
dimensions), which converts to 78.5m^3

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:02:16 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Density (gearheads alert)

Martin Hardgrave wrote:
> 
> In message <36601958.BCA8449E@pharmacy.arizona.edu>, Bruce Johnson
> <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes
> >Also includes one spool dental floss in the glove box. Approximately 15 cm is
> >used to hang the fuzzy dice from the rear-view mirror. Another 60 cm is in use
> >bundling up several hoses on the powerplant to keep them from rubbing.
> 
> Waxed or unwaxed, and with or without fluoride?

Waxed, mint flavor, in fact. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:51:28 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct

Actually, the Geneva Conventions could still be applied to the Traveller
Universe. Better yet, a whole new protocol would be needed to apply to space
combat. It would be similar in content to Civilians and Combatants at sea.
The 1946 Geneva Conventions should be available on the net here, somewhere.
Perhaps we could look at doing this as a on-line project ?

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:02:02 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct?

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>
> I've recently been reading Dickson's "Dorsai" series, and in a
> couple of places, reference is made to the Mercenary's Code,
> a.k.a. the Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct.  One can get
> an idea of some of what the MC/PSCC says from the references to
> it; for example, one article prohibits the killing of POWs or
> innocent civilians, another allows summary execution of soldiers
> who fail to obey orders, and so on.  It also appears to grant
> certain rights, such as for the line troops to vote on and demand
> that the officers lead them in a certain action.
>
> Would such a PSCC actually exist IaTU?  If so, can we work up the
> text?

A while back my players formed a mercenary team. They only did it with
the purpose of getting exotic weaponry, but I gave them a copy of a
document I cobbled together called "So You're Running A Mercenary
Outfit". IMTU, it's published by the Imperial Association of
Professional Combatants", a.k.a. the Merc Guild.

I put it together out of a few posts I'd seen on the TML regarding
mercenary conduct.

If anyone wants a copy, let me know. It's in Word format.

- - --
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:57:37 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

[Stuff already covered in other posts...]

One of the problems is that the cost of jump-6 X-boats has come down since CT.

In CT the cost is 155MCr

In T4 the cost is about 40MCr, G:T aboudt 35MCr. With discounts about 30MCr.

Now at 155MCr the person who thought that converting over from J4 to J6
would be betting the company was wrong (producing and maintaining S and X
ships is a BIG business).

At 30MCr it is clearly a non-issue.

And this only considers J-6 along major routes - the rest of the worlds
can be connected using J1-J4 ships depending on their distance from an
information centre.

The number of TL15 worlds required to maintain this is about one per sector.

So is anyone going to pay for X-boats averaging J5+ and messages averaging J4
between most worlds?

Well one group dear to our PC's hearts: THE BANKS.

1) Free traders tend to have J1 or J2 ships.
2) Those ships are on a bank loan.
3) The rate of return barely covers losses due to mishap.
4) The banks cannot afford to have ship owners outrun their debts.
5) The (honest) ship owners don't want to outrun the records of their
   having paid.
6) The banks require the PCs to make their regular (monthly) payments,
   and to be able to make them at almost any starport.
   (At least at A and B, probably at C as well).
7) Free Traders want to trade with the lesser worlds where the Megacorps
   don't rule.

The current X-boat routes are a disaster for this.

Most PCs would probably be paying the banks quarterly (or worse) because
there are not enough X-boat stops. (If you can pay elsewhere then there
must be communication links to avoid the PCs being chased for non-payment
of debts).

J3+ ships would be almost impossible to finance, since they can outrun
the bank records if they do continual jumps.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:57:12 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct

I have just completed a rough draft of GENEVA CONVENTION FOR THE
AMELIORATION OF THE CONDITION OF WOUNDED, SICK, MAROONED AND SHIPWRECKED
MEMBERS OF ARMED FORCES IN SPACE OF 11 November, 2213 (GENEVA CONVENTION V).
I have completed it up to Article 36. Email me if you are interested, it's
pretty long (9 pages). It is only a draft and comments/ suggestions/offers
of help are welcome. It is a quick rewrite of Convention 2, I hope that the
Geneva Convention Guys don't sue me...

Anybody got another word for Humanitarian that could apply to all species ?

What organization does 3I and it's enemies have instead of the Red
Cross/Crescent ?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:50:36 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

Steven Hudson writes:
 
>  BTW, if the IN has "one or two" couriers available for when news of the
>start of hostilities reaches them, then they are _f$%ked_. A sector HQ
>that can't deploy J-6 couriers to all it's constituent fleets in one push
>is not being run by sapient life forms.

Well, to be absolutely fair, the IN can't use its standby couriers for
routine messages. If, for example, the IN operates with weekly messages
between fleet HQs and their detatched fleets and an emergency message
arrives the day after the weekly courier jumped out, the Admiral has to
have sufficient couriers standing by to send to all his fleets. similarily
the detatched forces need a courier standing by for emergency notification
of the Admiral. Ideally each fleet should have enough couriers to reach
every other fleet within jump-6 standing by, though this may not be deemed
necessary if there is a shortage of couriers.

Still, I agree that a navy that dosen't put a high priority on communication
is a navy that is run by idiots.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Even sub-lieutenants are God's creatures,
         though it is hard to believe it sometimes."
                        Commander Ted Walker
                   "Secret Water" by Arthur Ransome

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:24:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Skimming from stars

In mail you write:

> Dan Eveland asked:
>
>>Is a red giant's outer portions cool enough and dense enough to
>>skim fuel from?
>
> The coolest stars have a surface temperature of around 2350 C. This is well
> above the melting point of most metals and above the boiling point of many.
>  If I were going to try it, I wouldn't tell my life insurance agent.

Also, you need to consider the "surface" gravity of the star. 

When skimming from any body that has a sufrace gravity greater than
your drive's thrust, you'll have to be in an *orbit* that kims the
surface at the near end, and has the far end at a level where your
ship's thrust *does* exceed the gravity at that level. 

This sort of thing quickly leadsto *very* high speeds. Also, the time
it takes to go from the high point to the low point and back can be
calculated. And it gets to be impractically long. 

If it's gonna take a *week* to "fall" to the star, skim, and "fall"
back out to a point where you can "break orbit", you are better off
doing something else. With most stars, it's more likely to take a month
or more. And the skim velocity is apt to be so high you'll fry the ship.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:12:25 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Languages in Traveller

On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/24/98 9:34:39 AM Central Standard Time,
> gsmith@helot.arl.mil writes:
> 
> << No offense intended to French-speakers on the list, but I believe that
>  German is more widespread than French and is likely to stay so. >>
> 
> French dominates Africa to an extent not realized by many people, and it has a
> foothold in Asia despite the loss of Vietnam. Everyone in Quebec speaks
> French. Geman (on the other hand) is spoken in Germany and ?

In Germany and Austria and Switzerland. The Netherlanders also understand
German very well. I suppose the three Languages English French and German
together get you through most of Europe. 

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:33:44 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Languages in Traveller

On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, Greg Smith wrote:

> I think German has more in the way of the science community (completely
> unfounded but its my impression) and is the common language in many of
> the former Warsaw Pact countries....before Russian.  Many (most?)
> Russians speak German and English as their "second" language.  Millions
> in South America too.

The 'Scientific Language' by now is English. German scientists do talk to
another in their home language, but most of the written papers now are
available only in English (although still much of it is translated)

If you study archaeology, it's quite different. I know (from my sister)
that most literature had been published in german, english and french,
along with some italian. You will at least have to be able to read it.
And as there also are lots of dead languages, imagining Indiana Jones
speaking a large number of languages is not far away ...

But now for something completely different ...

German speakers have gone to adapt much notions from other languages. Most
of them now come from hi-tech areas, such as computer and entertainment
technology, in which often the english notions are used. It seems as if
the translators got bored or didn't even know how to name it in german ...

The commercials on their side even invent 'englishe' translations for
german products, i.e. the cover it with an english-like name, although the
real language there is no such word.

Some examples:

Videorekorder 
Hi-Fi-Stereoanlage mit CD-Player (guess what?)
Minidisc-Player
Airbag
Handys (i.e. portable telephones)

The top of it in my eyes takes a german telecommunications company, which
advertises with the literal slogan (no translation here):
 'For a better understanding.' 
Most (but not all) of the people do.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:48:19 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: IG Liquidation

On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, steve daniels wrote:

> 
> 
> dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com wrote:
> 
> > I heard that some guy went into my FLGS and purchased the entire line of IG
> > Traveller goods, and all the BITS items and GURPS items only a couple of
> > weeks ago.
> 
> BITS items on FLGS shelves?!
> 
> Would that this could occur in the U.S. of A.

IG items on FLGS shelves?!
That's what I here in Germany am dreaming of for the last year !!!
Seems as if I can nail these to the wall ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:51:12 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: RE: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct

>
>Anybody got another word for Humanitarian that could apply to all species ?

How does Honorable sound?

Courteous
Proper
Correct
Civilized


These came from the top of my head at 8 in the morning right after
breakfast :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:07:32 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: IG Liquidation

>BTW, who is IG's main creditor? Sweet Pea?  Anyone know
>if Sweet Pea is going to get and/or retain the copyrights in the
>already published and paid for stuff?  (Unpaid for stuff probably
>had no transfer of copyright in the firstplace).  I could live with
>the loss of the stock if I knew that someone Trav-friendly and
>generous had the copyrights so that the stuff could be preserved
>for future revision/re-release.
>
>Bloo

As you probably know better than I, Steve, as a stockholder, Sweetpea comes
after all other creditors (as do I).

First in line are people like printers and, theoretically, authors or
customers due refunds.

My understanding though is that Sweetpea was loaning IG money to keep it
operating for some time.  I bet that repayment of those loans comes before
stockholder rights, but after other creditors.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:30:54 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Re: B5 Spoilers are Justified! (more OT fun)

I know you are working on a US supplier; I just noticed everyone seemed to
be busy abusing each other (Thanksgiving, B5 and War Atrocity posts and
counter-posts), so I just wanted to toss my own handful of sand into  the
works.

Actually, I'll be travelling to London on business in February (on the way
to Sweden), so I hope to pick up the items in person at that time.  I will
also be hand-delivering the last 5 B5 episodes to some of my co-workers in
Sweden; they have to wait even longer to see the last 5 than the folks in
UK do.

Please note that this post bears little connection to Traveller, and I
really do not care.

Steven Charlton

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:
>>The spoliers for the last 5 episodes of Babylon 5 are a just and
righteous
>>punishment for those of you in the UK who have easy access to BITS
>>products, while we here in the States must languish unfulfilled.
>
>Hmm! So where is it that I need to exclude any new distribution deals from
>then? ;-)
>
>Get your 101 series books plus the Traveller Bilbliography from - Leisure
>games, London http://www.btinternet.com/~leisuregames
>
>You need to phone or fax for first order.
>
>And we *are* working on a US supplier.
>
>Dom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:35:20 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: AHL info

Could anyone with a copy of the AHL box or even just Supplement 5, tell
me if the following is in it?
1) How many were constructed?
2) How many were transferred to the IISS after they were retired from
Navy service?

(actually if anyone would sell me even a photocopy of S5 it would be
really helpful for an adventure I'm working on right now.)

TIA,
William

- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you       
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good	    
road and may God's blessing be with you always. 
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:03:13 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmberg@thuntek.net>
Subject: Trading Traveller Information

Fellow TMLers:

Have need of canon subsector maps and data for Beyond, Vangard, Far Frontier
 and Foreven Sectors.  Are there sources on-line?  I have one subsector, an
old
photocopy of the Jungleblut subsector.  Are there any others available/

Am willing to trade photo copies of Imperial Atlas (DGP?) and Paranoia Press
Beyond and Vangard Rreaches.  (The last items for those CTers that just have t'
 have a copy of the information for their collections)

Eric

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1212
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 30 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1213



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cargo Containers for MT
re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit
Re: Languages in Traveller
B5
Re: X-boat Routes (was Re: Jump-6 courier network)
Re: Skimming from stars
Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1201
re: skimming from stars
Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...
First Contact/Vilani Expertise Requested
Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...
Re: Skimming from stars
Al Morai (was Re: Jump-6 courier network)
Re: B5 Spoilers are Justified! (more OT fun)
Further Canon on J6 X-boats
Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit
Re: X-boat Routes (was Re: Jump-6 courier network)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:07:34 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Cargo Containers for MT

>> And why would anyone stick a computer on a wooden container
>>filled with pool-ball fruit? how much does this computer cost? how about
>>the sensors to determine the weight? the door open/close sensores? the
>>utra-secure scrambled radios needed for them to work as you describe?  Or
>>do they all have meson coms?
>
>        Hmmm...  There goes my "Canon"-detector again.
>        The question is how much does the government IYTU *care* about
>smuggling.  That will indicate *how much* money they want to spend on the
>issue.

The answer would depend on computer technology IYTU. If computers continue
to decrease in size and increase in performance, it's reasonable to expect
that advanced actuarial systems can be built into disposable computers
smaller and cheaper than rice grains. Such actuarial computers could be
built into consumer goods, labels, or stuck onto each pool-ball fruit en
mass. They could handle things like repair and warranty records, maintain
stock and shipment schedules, and include transponders, accelerometers, and
memory to track time and position.

All the data would be recorded on non-volatile memory and downloaded
remotely. Scrambled radios and accountants would not be necessary, all the
logic and sensory circuits would be burned into the machines. The cost
would be negligible and would not require any support staff.

How canon is this? Not very; computers in FF&S2 reach a minimum size of
0.005 cubic m at TL 12 and never get smaller. Also, canon shipments like
the anti-rad drugs in Twilight's Peak show no evidence of this.

However, if your TU has computers smaller than bread loaves you are already
breaking canon, and this kind of technology would be very useful for
handling strategic, automated, and/or expensive materials in any TU.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:09:51 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit

Just some comments on Erwin Fritz's document:

While the information provides a lot of good ideas, I notice that he has
the IAPC as an office of the Imperial government. I think this gives us
some problems with canon.

From Traveller Library Data on Imperial Rules of War:

"To mitigate the potentially most disastrous aspects of armed conflict,
the "rules of war" have evolved as an accumulation of unwritten
concepts on a case-by-case basis. The rules of war have never been
officially codified, both to prevent them being seen as an Imperial
endorsement of war and to prevent formal precedent from preventing
Imperial intervention whenever the Imperium deems it necessary. "

So, Erwin's document both has an Imperial agency writing down the
"unwritten" rules, and endorsing warfare by creating an office of the
Imperium dedicated to licensing, providing five star ratings, and
otherwise aiding and abetting mercenary companies.

IMTU, I'd see a group like Erwin's Imperial Association of Professional
Combatants existing as a private organization, perhaps with unofficial
Imperial approval. The Imperium should have some mechanism for
licensing mercenary companies - otherwise anyone with a couple MCr
could travel Imperial space with a yacht full of combat troops - but I think
Erwin's vision goes a little too far.

About repatriation bonds:

In a previous post I was treating repatriation bonds as a kind of 
free passage off planet paper - things start looking bad, you surrender
and wave your repatriation bond, away you go. This is probably not
the canonical case.

In a JTAS scenario ("Close and Destroy"?), the PC's are members of
one of several mercenary units employed by the rebels in a local
civil war. The rebellion collapses, the locals make nice, and several
atrocities committed during the war are conveniently blamed on the
mercenaries. Since the mercenaries are scattered in small contingents,
they are quickly overwhelmed - and apparently lynched. The PC's must
make a run for the starport, where they can activate their repatriation
bonds and bug out. This was an extreme situation, but it may show
the limits of a repatriation bond.

I can see some mercenary companies excercising professional courtesy
with each other, as seen in Pournelle's _Mercenary_ story - 
IIRC he showed a merc unit surrendering,  both sides assuming
they would be released to leave the planet, and the captured CO
dickering ransom price with the victors for the captured equipment.
Some unsavory merc groups may not act this way, and I can see
some planetary governments being a little less forgiving to captured
employees of a rebellion movement.

A mercenary has a tough job, even if his employer wins. He is an outsider
to a situation locals were willing to kill over. He may have been the one
ordered to do what locals were too squeamish to do, and will be a 
reminder that there were people not too squeamish to order it done.
I have a feeling that the battlefield may be less dangerous to the
mercenary than politics or relations with his employer.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:26:16 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Languages in Traveller

> > I think German has more in the way of the science community (completely

> The 'Scientific Language' by now is English. German scientists do talk to
> another in their home language, but most of the written papers now are
> available only in English (although still much of it is translated)

	Yes, that is definitive. I work in an internationally known 
university department in a german-speaking country (Austria), and 
I can tell you that our *internal* Working Papers are written in 
English. Most of the departments in my area in Germany do the same. 
Those who don't are usually considered "localist" and not very 
recognized.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:52:35 -0800
From: "Leo Hale" <lhale@panlabs.com>
Subject: B5

     A thought on the current line of e-mails regarding this series.  One
of the complaints is that nothing has been resolved regarding Linear, or
Leta Alexander.  Just a thought, but since they set the stage for the new
Ranger series, it might be that they will deal with your other questions in
that forum. (I.E. convinced Susan I. to become the new head of the
Rangers.)  Just s thought.

Leo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:59:48 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: X-boat Routes (was Re: Jump-6 courier network)

> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:57:37 +0000
> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network
> 
> The current X-boat routes are a disaster for [sending messages and
payments back to the bank].
> 
> Most PCs would probably be paying the banks quarterly (or worse) because
> there are not enough X-boat stops. (If you can pay elsewhere then there
> must be communication links to avoid the PCs being chased for non-payment
> of debts).
> 
> J3+ ships would be almost impossible to finance, since they can outrun
> the bank records if they do continual jumps.
> 

As usual, I'm inspired to comment on one random element in a thread that I
haven't followed in detail.  Apologies to the list if this has been said
before.

In attempting to reconstruct the logic behind the existing X-boat network
in the Spinward Marches, I thought to overlay the Spinward Main and the
X-boat network on the same map.  Behold!   A pattern emerges:

The X-boat network runs *only* where the Jump-1 mains (principally the
Spinward Main itself) do not. 

I infer from this that similar, high-speed communications run along the
mains, skipping worlds as necessary for efficiency but hitting just about
all the Class A and B starports.  A further inference is that this
"network" is probably commercial in nature (since the Imperial network is
clearly depicted).  It may not be a monolithic entity but composed of many
overlapping and incidentally connected networks, each run by a different
corporation for it's own use and carrying other commercial and official
Imperial traffic as a sideline (albeit a very profitable one).

Consider:  Say each ship in a given large merchant line (Delgado, Tukera)
carried a large storage bank connected to her communications array. Just as
she is about to jump out, she receives a data burst from her sistership
that just arrived insystem. She carries it to her destination, transmitting
it as soon after breakout as possible to her outbound sistership and to the
lines offices onplanet. Given scheduled merchant lines and frequent-enough
arrivals and departures (and that jump-point masking makes the average
transit time 36 hours rather than 6, for a larger "window"), such a system
would be only slightly less efficient than a dedicated x-boat network, and
considerably cheaper. Multiply by all the lines on the same route, and it
becomes evident that the Imperial X-boats run where they do because the
(low jump capacity) commercial traffic does not.

This doesn't solve the Jump-4 versus Jump-6 debate, of course (for that I
favor Peter Newman's Decline and Fall scenario), but it should save having
to worry about why the X-boat routes aren't commercially viable. 

[No slam to Mr. Kitching is either intended or implied; his was just the
post that caught my attention.]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:52:53 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Skimming from stars

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: Skimming from stars


>In mail you write:
>
>> Dan Eveland asked:
>>
>>>Is a red giant's outer portions cool enough and dense enough to
>>>skim fuel from?
>>
>> The coolest stars have a surface temperature of around 2350 C. This is
well
>> above the melting point of most metals and above the boiling point of
many.
>>  If I were going to try it, I wouldn't tell my life insurance agent.
>
>Also, you need to consider the "surface" gravity of the star.
>
>When skimming from any body that has a sufrace gravity greater than
>your drive's thrust, you'll have to be in an *orbit* that kims the
>surface at the near end, and has the far end at a level where your
>ship's thrust *does* exceed the gravity at that level.
>
>This sort of thing quickly leadsto *very* high speeds. Also, the time
>it takes to go from the high point to the low point and back can be
>calculated. And it gets to be impractically long.
>
>If it's gonna take a *week* to "fall" to the star, skim, and "fall"
>back out to a point where you can "break orbit", you are better off
>doing something else. With most stars, it's more likely to take a month
>or more. And the skim velocity is apt to be so high you'll fry the ship.
>


On the other hand, if you're marooned in a system with no gas giants and no
water bearing planets, you may not have much of a choice.

John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:04:32 -0500
From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
Subject: Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit

> Just some comments on Erwin Fritz's document:

Speaking of such, if it isn't too much trouble and Erwin reads this
I'd like a copy of the document so that I can look it over.  ::smiles::
I'm getting ready to start my traveller game, and one never knows where
you can find afew neat little details.

 

> About repatriation bonds:

	I've had alot of trouble with repatriation bonds.  Just never
really got the idea of what their really *for*.  I understand the
premise behind them;  a 'get off of the hostile world free' card.  I
just don't understand the specifics.  What does one do to use a
repatriation bond?  What are the limits to one?  The small little
examples you posted helped alot, thanks.  ::smiles::



 
- -- 
Brandon,

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:10:09 -0800
From: "Leo Hale" <lhale@panlabs.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1201

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:04:59 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Defenses against teleporters

>I don't like the idea of allowing a teleporter to pop into a place already
>inhabited by anything substantial - what qualifies as "substantial"
>is debatable, of course.


You could always do what Rolemaster does, if you teleport into any solid
object you don't actually teleport, instead you get stunned. Make it a
massive headache or something which will stop them from being able to try
again for a while.

Cheers,
 Anson




***********************

      Seems pretty simple to me how you stop someone from teleporting into
      an area, just screen it from there view either normally or via
      psionics.  Tlelportation requires that you have either previous
      knowledge of the area you are transporting to or the ability to see
      it.  If they have never been there physically and can not see it,
      then they will be unable to teleport to that location.



Leo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:14:12 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: skimming from stars

>Also, you need to consider the "surface" gravity of the star. 
>When skimming from any body that has a sufrace gravity greater than
>your drive's thrust, you'll have to be in an *orbit* that kims the
>surface at the near end, and has the far end at a level where your
>ship's thrust *does* exceed the gravity at that level. 

The latter part isn't particularly true; you can reach escape velocities
using thrusts much lower than local gravity. It just requires more complex
trajectories than an easy-to-visualize high-acceleration trajectory. 

What is true is that the total drag due to skimming has to be less than the
thrust of the engine (but that's fairly easy to arrange...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:21:22 -0500
From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
Subject: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...

I was thinking about this afew days ago, when I was looking over
the rules in GURPS:  Traveller about jumping.  It seems, to me atleast,
rather easy to botch one of the three rolls needed to jump and screw
something up with you're jump.

	A misjump does't really seem that out there;  it's not that
difficult to fail an engineering roll.  One of the options on this is
a misdirected jump.  It seems to me that, unless the ship has enough
fuel for more than one jump, he's more or less screwed if that happens.
There's alot more 'empty space' in space than their are other places.
The odds of misjumping and ending up in the middle of nowhere seems
atleast not out of the question!


	Am I missing something?  Or are their tons of ghost ships out
cruising dead in space??



- -- 
Brandon,

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:27:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: First Contact/Vilani Expertise Requested

Fellow Travellers,

I am about to start running my First Contact campaign, Project: 
StarRise, and ran into a few questions while trying to iron out the 
essentials for the background of the game.

1)  I have an extended system generated for Barnard's Star/Ikugi at 
the point of First Contact, but wanted to know if a canonical version 
had been published, in any era.  If so, could someone help me get a 
copy of that information, and I can "reverse engineer" it to the 
First Contact time period?  Otherwise, would anyone be interested in 
my version of the system?

2)  The Vilani are present as miners in the system when the USS 
Starleaper I arrives in system.  I want to make Ikugi the site of a 
Vilani megacorporation, but do not know enough about the megacorps to 
know which one would have been active in that area at that time.  
Does anyone have any relavent information on the mercantile 
affiliation of the belters in Ikugi at First Contact?

Andrew Vallence's Prometheus Rising data of the Solomani Rim at First 
Contact gives Ikugi/Barnard's Star a population of roughly 7000, 
which indicates a small refining plant or similar operation to me.  
UWP: E200312-A indicates a recently developed site, probably less 
than ten years old or so.  The starport is in the progress of being 
upgraded, but the development of the site will be interrupted by the 
arrival of the Terrans.

3)  How was contact initially established?  I assume the surveyors 
onboard the Starleaper I noticed the radio traffic.  Either that, or 
the SDBs that approached the Terran vessel.  Either one would have 
eventually led to actual attempts to contact.  The formatting of 
visual images can be distinctly varied enough that sending/recieving 
video images might not be viable (at least until official technical 
specifics had been exchanged), but is there anything preventing audio 
contact (via radio, of course)?  How was communication established 
during this important meeting?

[Important note:  In the campaign that I am running, there has been 
prior contact between Vilani and Terrans, which will facillitate the 
language learning curve.  Telepathy was used in this undocumented 
encounter.  However, the Terran agencies that made contact did not 
make the discovery known back home, and are setting up the official 
First Contact to appear as though no previous contact was ever made.  
The psionic  society hidden within the Vilani megacorp is playing 
along, in search of bigger profits, etc., as well as some conquest 
schemes of their own.  The problem is how do the two secret societies 
overcome the immediate problems without being obvious.]

4)  Shortly thereafter, Vilani and Terrans joined in several 
joint-exploration missions, and this is where the Terrans learned of 
the overwhelming size of the Vilani Imperium.  Was that common 
practice?  How was such established?  Did a representative of the 
provincial governor meet with Terran diplomats, or did the Terrans 
travel to the governor's seat to make these arrangements?  What type 
of vessels were used in these missions?  What kind of crew compliment 
was used?

Ultimately, the goal of the campaign is to take the PCs through First 
Contact, introduce them to the Vilani, do some explorations with 
Vilani forces, learn about the secret societies manipulating Terrans 
and Vilani toward undisclosed goals, and deal with the situation.  
The scenarios eventually lead to the First Interstellar War, and 
explain why the upper levels of the Solomani forces develop a 
fear/hatred of psionics.  It is this fear/hatred that serves as the 
basis for the current 3I opinion regarding psionics, as it was 
handed down over the generations from the Rule of Man.

The conspiratorial background of the campaign derives in flavor from 
X-Files, Space Above And Beyond, B5, and similar sci-fi plots where 
all is not quite as it seems.  While the conspiracy eventually 
becomes the campaign focus, the governments and other 
political/social organizations involved keep the matter suppressed 
in regards to the media and the general populace, and thus it never 
becomes a part of the "official" history.

More contemporary campaign ideas may be PCs who discover part of the 
picture in M:0 or M:1115ish, and must deal with a group that wants to 
resurrect the directions of one of the two original secret societies, 
and a group that demands that the information be suppressed.  ("We've 
guarded this secret for 3000 years.  We're not going to let the 
truth/this embarrassment come out now, after generations of work.  
Kill them.")  This is the direction of the campaign idea I will 
pursue after the StarRise campaign runs its course.

I would welcome any comments and criticisms that anyone has to offer, 
the more constructive the better.

All information obtained and utilized will be documented on the 
Project: StarRise website, which will be announced soon.  (Got half 
the Traveller HERO rules conversion complete, and gotta get that 
finished so I can actually game first.)

Thanks for your time.

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:43:31 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@tansoft.com>
Subject: Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...

At 01:21 PM 11/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I was thinking about this afew days ago, when I was looking over
>the rules in GURPS:  Traveller about jumping.  It seems, to me atleast,
>rather easy to botch one of the three rolls needed to jump and screw
>something up with you're jump.

See the little sky-blue pink pills in the Ships Locker.  The neuro-toxin is
quite fast.

>       A misjump does't really seem that out there;  it's not that
>difficult to fail an engineering roll.  One of the options on this is
>a misdirected jump.  It seems to me that, unless the ship has enough
>fuel for more than one jump, he's more or less screwed if that happens.
>There's alot more 'empty space' in space than their are other places.
>The odds of misjumping and ending up in the middle of nowhere seems
>atleast not out of the question!

In most situations, the GM isn't going to kill a whole party over a bad dice
roll.  The failed rolls could mean multiple things like you didn't jump to
begin with (See Empire Strikes Back when they are trying to escape the Empire)
to a jump that lasts longer or shorter than normal but you still come out where
you are supposed to.  Maybe you end up on the wrong side of a system to who
knows what.

Its also a time for the GM to have a little bit of fun.  I jumped a mis-jump
from the Solomani Rim to the Spinward Marches once.  I was getting tired of all
the TL-F worlds in the Rim, so I sent them Spinward.  You can do some screwy
time travel things, they of course would be able to refuel and "follow their
vector backwards", switch to alternate dimensions, and a host of other GM
evilties.  

>       Am I missing something?  Or are their tons of ghost ships out
>cruising dead in space??

Annic Nova any one?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:04:26 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Skimming from stars

At 01:24 30/11/1998 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Dan Eveland asked:
>>
>>>Is a red giant's outer portions cool enough and dense enough to
>>>skim fuel from?
>>
>> The coolest stars have a surface temperature of around 2350 C. This is well
>> above the melting point of most metals and above the boiling point of many.
>>  If I were going to try it, I wouldn't tell my life insurance agent.
>
>Also, you need to consider the "surface" gravity of the star. 
>
>When skimming from any body that has a sufrace gravity greater than
>your drive's thrust, you'll have to be in an *orbit* that kims the
>surface at the near end, and has the far end at a level where your
>ship's thrust *does* exceed the gravity at that level. 
>
<snip>

I don't think that this is correct.

When our Sun expands to fill Earth's orbit, its gravitational pull
will be exactly the same as it is now at any given distance from its
centre. IE not very significant at its surface.

As you entered the red giant Sun, the gravity would be lower at any
given orbit than it is now, (although it would increase as you got
closer because the material on the surface is not very dense)

OTOH unless you use one of the variant gravitational tidal limit
theories, the 100D limt is going to be a very long way off :-)

The other point is that the temperature is less important than the
energy density.

In theory you should be able to survive in the Sun's corona at 1,000,000K
because there is almost nothing there but not at the surface (6,000K?).

So if you could arrange the fuel scoops to work in a low density region
it should be possible.

But I still think that you would need lots of high speed swoops and
a very reflective surface or the internal temperature would rise too much.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:09:14 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Al Morai (was Re: Jump-6 courier network)

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network
...
>One of the problems is that the cost of jump-6 X-boats has come down since CT.
>
>In CT the cost is 155MCr
...
>So is anyone going to pay for X-boats averaging J5+ and messages averaging J4
>between most worlds?

  Eventually Al Morai for one will have additional cash available to expand
(either that or the business has ceased to allow for expansion); while one
of its' 3-kt space-cows runs ~MCr 1300+, they can get the thirteen TL F J-5 
couriers needed to connect Head Office: Mora to Rhylanor, Regina, and corp 
Ops Center: Shirene (with a ship for overhaul d/t).

  This would at least halve the time to communicate between outlying portions
of the companies AOO, and is much more efficient than using the "route
protectors"
for courier services. It would seem odd if no other business could be acquired
for such a route.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:41:27 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: B5 Spoilers are Justified! (more OT fun)

scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:

>I know you are working on a US supplier; I just noticed everyone seemed to
>be busy abusing each other (Thanksgiving, B5 and War Atrocity posts and
>counter-posts), so I just wanted to toss my own handful of sand into  the
>works.

Sheesh! And I thought you wanted me to rise to the bait... ;-)

>Actually, I'll be travelling to London on business in February (on the way
>to Sweden), so I hope to pick up the items in person at that time.  I will
>also be hand-delivering the last 5 B5 episodes to some of my co-workers in
>Sweden; they have to wait even longer to see the last 5 than the folks in
>UK do.

I actually hope we have something resolved before then....

>Please note that this post bears little connection to Traveller, and I
>really do not care.

Oh yes... (I'll let you into a secret - I don't either).

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:14:37 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Further Canon on J6 X-boats

To add fuel to the warring faction's fire - here is some canon stuff on J6
X boats.

Dom
- -----

Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 101-1105

Close on the heels of the joint announcement by General Shipyards and
Tukera Lines that L-Hyd drop tanks would soon be
manufactured in the Regina subsector, came word by express boat from the
Imperial core that a decision has been made to deploy
Jump-6 L-Hyd drop tank express boats on all major express routes. Initial
feasibility studies indicate that such a system could average
jump-5.5 per week by executing maximum jumps, and leaving current xboats
to disseminate information between the new major relay
points. The system is expected to cut communication time to the Imperial
hub to under 25 weeks. The Initial System Deployment
Schedule indicates that the Regina subsector can expect to be fully
integrated into the network within a decade. [JTAS #2, FFW]

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:17:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit

Brandon Quina wrote:

>         I've had alot of trouble with repatriation bonds.  Just never
> really got the idea of what their really *for*.  I understand the
> premise behind them;  a 'get off of the hostile world free' card.  I
> just don't understand the specifics.  What does one do to use a
> repatriation bond?  What are the limits to one?  The small little
> examples you posted helped alot, thanks.  ::smiles::

They're bonds put up by the hiring party, to ensure that mercenaries on
the losing side can get out of there, either passage off planet, or
ransom. Most mercenary companies will readily honor them, any goverment
that doesn't will soon find itself in a world of hurt.

basic idea, your'e a merc, you fight a war. You lose. If you're
captured, you don't hang around in a POW camp, but get shipped out, paid
for by repat bond. Depending on the particulars of the contract, most
likely, you get out with your personal possessions. The winners may get
to keep captured equipment, etc.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:26:25 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: X-boat Routes (was Re: Jump-6 courier network)

At 11:59 30/11/1998 -0600, you wrote:
>> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:57:37 +0000
>> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>> Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

<snip>

>I infer from this that similar, high-speed communications run along the
>mains, skipping worlds as necessary for efficiency but hitting just about
>all the Class A and B starports.  A further inference is that this
>"network" is probably commercial in nature (since the Imperial network is
>clearly depicted).  It may not be a monolithic entity but composed of many
>overlapping and incidentally connected networks, each run by a different
>corporation for it's own use and carrying other commercial and official
>Imperial traffic as a sideline (albeit a very profitable one).
>
>Consider:  Say each ship in a given large merchant line (Delgado, Tukera)
>carried a large storage bank connected to her communications array. Just as
>she is about to jump out, she receives a data burst from her sistership
>that just arrived insystem. She carries it to her destination, transmitting
>it as soon after breakout as possible to her outbound sistership and to the
>lines offices onplanet. Given scheduled merchant lines and frequent-enough
>arrivals and departures (and that jump-point masking makes the average
>transit time 36 hours rather than 6, for a larger "window"), such a system
>would be only slightly less efficient than a dedicated x-boat network, and
>considerably cheaper. Multiply by all the lines on the same route, and it
>becomes evident that the Imperial X-boats run where they do because the
>(low jump capacity) commercial traffic does not.
>
>This doesn't solve the Jump-4 versus Jump-6 debate, of course (for that I
>favor Peter Newman's Decline and Fall scenario), but it should save having
>to worry about why the X-boat routes aren't commercially viable. 
>
>[No slam to Mr. Kitching is either intended or implied; his was just the
>post that caught my attention.]
>
[no slam taken]

I can totally accept this situation for spreading info at J1/J2 to
planets not on the X-boat/j6 courier lines.

Now my PCs can pay the bank at almost anywhere (either on a J1 main or
an X-boat station).

It also reduces the cost of setting up a dedicated network.
It might even be cheaper (paying carriage vs buying ships).
So now the J6 network should be more likely (IMHO).

Without a regular, efficient, network, your sector admiral has the problem
of how urgent is urgent.

They can't use their own J6 couriers for regular dispatchses.
So they have (say) 16, one for each subsector.
But what if another urgent meaasge comes in... since some of the couriers
take months to return even at J6, then your sector admiral is going to need
hundreds or risk not sending a message whilst waiting for a more important
one.

IMO you'll end up with so many couriers sitting around that its cheaper
to have J6 X-boats doing the job (and faster since the message can go on
without refuelling).

Hmmm,
back when Nelson sent messages around by frigate, what sort of messages
were sent, did they include commercial messages.
Did the Captains and Admirals sent messages by trusted commercial vessel.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1213
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 30 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1214



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1211
Introducing the ISAG
Aliens
Joel Pratt
G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Winter War XXVI
Re: Repatriation Bonds (was Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit)
Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...
Computer Size in Traveller
RE: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct
Re: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct
Economics of potential courier routes
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1212
Re: Cargo Containers for MT
players and GMs wanted
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
RE: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct
re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit
Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
Re: Computer Size in Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:03:27 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1211

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1211
...
>I have to wonder if others aren't so enamoured of their idea
>that they can't see that their arguements for it aren't as
>definative as they thing.  It is always easy to think that the
>other side of an arguement doesn't see things as well as you
>do.

  Good point. So let's address the belief that faster commo is unlikely
because it costs more money. Problem: it's _cheaper_. Oops?

  At TL F (i.e., since 1025 at the latest) a barebones express courier
service using J-5 100 Dt HG ships costs less to start or maintain than
any system using lower J-#'s, assuming weekly service. It's possible
(though not proven) that a J-6 system is even more efficient, cost-wise.

  In fact, it's fairly likely that at least basic J-5 corp courier
networks have been around since 800 or so, and TL F is a bit better
for upgrading J-5 100 Dt boats than building a new network at ~140 Dt.

>> It does look odd when Hortalez et Cie
>>is happy with their internal commo trickling along at 2.6 parsecs/week,
>>doesn't it?
>
>For their routine traffic, not at all.

  What's routine then, pink slips? They're a financial services company
in most respects; the vast majority of their info wants to go as fast as
possible, which means J-5 or 6 by 1100, depending on their willingness
to pay for the last increments. That one corp could probably run their
own sector capital to Capital J-5+ system and make a profit on it.

  Corporations (not even "Mega-") can easily justify and _build_ J-5
routes from their own sectors to Capital; it likely wouldn't take a
group of these too long to form a "postal union" covering the vast
majority of the Imperiums major worlds.

  YMMV.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:04:58 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Introducing the ISAG

I wish to toss this around the in the cyber-ether for your approval.

One night I was thinking about the old ISBA (Imperial Ship Builders
Association, a collection of ship building 'companies' created for T4,
unofficially) and what it would become in 1100 years.
Also I noticed that there is quite a G:T following, and many G:T ship
designers out there.
Some IRC denizens had also indicated their desire for this as well.
So putting 2 and 2 together I decided it was about time to implement a
similar system in G:T.

Introducing the Imperial Starship Architects Guild! (version 0.5alpha)

This is pretty much the same thing we did with the ISBA, but for G:T.
Ships would be designed from the G:T rules and Vehicles can be used for
special components.
Every month we would have a designers contest, like the THUDDD.  Winning
ships would be posted monthly as a sort of  "Ship of the Month" format
like "Vehicle of the Week" currently on GURPSnet.  Postings would be sent
to both GURPSnet and TML alike.

In ISBA most of the shipwrights were CEO's of Imperial corporations. By
1120 however most of those companies would have either been merged into
the megacorps, disappeared entirely, or (as in the case of X-TEK) moved
their base of operations from Core to the Domain of Deneb and otherwise
kept their status as a sector-wide company.

ISAG will not necessarily require the creation of a 'company', but it's a
fun idea.  If you wish to remain an 'independent contractor' that is fine,
and actually quite playable.

Well then, what say you fellow shipwrights?  Should we "make it so" in the
name of the Imperium?



\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:41:44 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Aliens

Gentlebeings,

We are currently looking for volunteers to write the second Aliens book for
GURPS Traveller, Alien Races II: Aslan and K'kree.

Interested parties should go to our submissions page:

www.sjgames.com/general/author/

and follow the instructions for submitting a proposal. This can be a
cooperative project (if you can get a co-author who is as thrilled about
the one alien as you are about the other, that is).

Please don't clutter up the list with responses, but if you have a
suggestion, send it directly to me at

 lkw@io.com




Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:20:38 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Joel Pratt

Has anyone received email from Joel Pratt or Traveller items he
auctioned last October? If so, please reply to me personally
rather than to the TML.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:22:55 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

Just an FYI

G:T Aliens Volume I is in the stores! (at least my FLGS anyway <G>)

Just skimmed it so far, but it looks very good.  Zhodani, Vargr, and
'things'. Oh my!

Everything you wanted to know about the Zhodani but where neuralized by
Imperial MIB for asking.
Everything you wanted to know (and not know) about the Vargr.  Looks like
Loren is keeping the steriotype of Vargr hanging heads out of windows and
other dog-like traits.  I seen a picture of 3 Vargr in a bar LAPPING their
drinks from a bowl! :-)

Also three minor races.  The Clotho (aka Adduxur IIRC) and 2 new races
from the demented mind of David Pulver.

This promises to be a fun and informative suppliement.  Let you know when
I have had time to digest it.

Oh, and to my IRC gaming group(you know who you are), Vargr love good Rock
and Roll! Or is that "Bark and Howl"?

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:44:27 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Winter War XXVI

While I don't yet have the pictures from last year scanned in, I'm
looking for volunteers to run Traveller games at Winter War XXVI.

Winter War XXVI is February 5 - 7, 1999, at the Clarion Hotel (formerly
the Chancellor) in Champaign, IL.

http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar for more details!


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:30:48 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Repatriation Bonds (was Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit)

> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:04:32 -0500
> From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
> Subject: Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit
> 
> > About repatriation bonds:
> 
> 	I've had alot of trouble with repatriation bonds.  Just never
> really got the idea of what their really *for*.  I understand the
> premise behind them;  a 'get off of the hostile world free' card.  I
> just don't understand the specifics.  What does one do to use a
> repatriation bond?  What are the limits to one?  The small little
> examples you posted helped alot, thanks.  ::smiles::
> 

It might be clearer if you look at it from the shipmaster's point of view: 
these grungy characters with lots of military hardware show up at your
loading ramp, claiming to be defeated mercenaries and looking for passage
off-planet.  In payment for low passage, they offer you these "repatriation
bonds". You examine the bonds, and see that they were issued by Hortalez et
Cie (in some suitably hard-to-forge format).  

Of course you'll take the contract (just as soon as they let you lock up
all those guns).  Those bonds are in essence a bank draft drawn on the
account of Hortalez et Cie, and as such as good as currency. They may be
better than the local currency, in fact, if what these guys say about the
fate of the government is true...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:46:57 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...

> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:21:22 -0500
> From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
> Subject: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...
> 
> I was thinking about this afew days ago, when I was looking over
> the rules in GURPS:  Traveller about jumping.  It seems, to me atleast,
> rather easy to botch one of the three rolls needed to jump and screw
> something up with you're jump.
> 
...
> 
> 	Am I missing something?  Or are there tons of ghost ships out
> cruising dead in space??
> 

In GURPS Traveller, 200-yr internal fuel supplies for fusion reactors,
reactionless thrusters and "total" lifesupport combine to mean you can
"walk home" -- constant acceleration to the nearest star system, flip at
the halfway point and decelerate, just like an interplanetary trip in
normal space.  This was also possible in the Imperium boardgame: crossing
gaps that were too wide to jump at 1 pc every 4 years (.8-.9c).  One
advantage of this approach is that time dilation will cut your subjective
trip length in half at .866c; repeated doses of Fast drug would cut it
still further.

In versions of Traveller that aren't so conveniently equipped, I'd say
misjumps are a good reason for having all those low berths on board...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:52:12 -0800
From: "Leo Hale" <lhale@panlabs.com>
Subject: Computer Size in Traveller

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:07:34 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Cargo Containers for MT

>> And why would anyone stick a computer on a wooden container
>>filled with pool-ball fruit? how much does this computer cost? how about
>>the sensors to determine the weight? the door open/close sensores? the
>>utra-secure scrambled radios needed for them to work as you describe?  Or
>>do they all have meson coms?
>
>        Hmmm...  There goes my "Canon"-detector again.
>        The question is how much does the government IYTU *care* about
>smuggling.  That will indicate *how much* money they want to spend on the
>issue.

The answer would depend on computer technology IYTU. If computers continue
to decrease in size and increase in performance, it's reasonable to expect
that advanced actuarial systems can be built into disposable computers
smaller and cheaper than rice grains. Such actuarial computers could be
built into consumer goods, labels, or stuck onto each pool-ball fruit en
mass. They could handle things like repair and warranty records, maintain
stock and shipment schedules, and include transponders, accelerometers, and
memory to track time and position.

All the data would be recorded on non-volatile memory and downloaded
remotely. Scrambled radios and accountants would not be necessary, all the
logic and sensory circuits would be burned into the machines. The cost
would be negligible and would not require any support staff.

How canon is this? Not very; computers in FF&S2 reach a minimum size of
0.005 cubic m at TL 12 and never get smaller. Also, canon shipments like
the anti-rad drugs in Twilight's Peak show no evidence of this.

However, if your TU has computers smaller than bread loaves you are already
breaking canon, and this kind of technology would be very useful for
handling strategic, automated, and/or expensive materials in any TU.
- - --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com


****************

      I know it is not thought of well by most Traveller players ( I have
      yet to make a determination since while I have the books I have not
      played) but in T4 basic book there is a great section on life at
      TL-12.  One of the descriptions mentions that computers are in
      everything, from the house and car to the holo display on the box of
      space crunch.  They mention that the computers are imprinted into the
      fibre's of the cereal box itself and have a battery life that matches
      the shelf life of the cereal itself.  What you do in your Traveller
      Universe is up to you, but it seems that the computers designed in
      FF&S (either version) are for vehicles and starcraft, and therefor
      much larger and powerful than the ones in the containers you
      describe.



Leo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:56:55 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: RE: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct

At 07:57 PM 11/30/98 +1000, you wrote:
>
>I have just completed a rough draft of GENEVA CONVENTION FOR THE
>AMELIORATION OF THE CONDITION OF WOUNDED, SICK, MAROONED AND SHIPWRECKED
>MEMBERS OF ARMED FORCES IN SPACE OF 11 November, 2213 (GENEVA CONVENTION V).
>I have completed it up to Article 36. Email me if you are interested, it's
>pretty long (9 pages). It is only a draft and comments/ suggestions/offers
>of help are welcome. It is a quick rewrite of Convention 2, I hope that the
>Geneva Convention Guys don't sue me...


geez since the geneva convention was made up of just about evey major power
that would be one hell of a lawsuit don't ya think...


send me a copy please

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:02:20 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct

In a message dated 98-11-30 16:00:07 EST, you write:

<< 
 At 07:57 PM 11/30/98 +1000, you wrote:
 >
 >I have just completed a rough draft of GENEVA CONVENTION FOR THE
 >AMELIORATION OF THE CONDITION OF WOUNDED, SICK, MAROONED AND SHIPWRECKED
 >MEMBERS OF ARMED FORCES IN SPACE OF 11 November, 2213 (GENEVA CONVENTION V).
 >I have completed it up to Article 36. Email me if you are interested, it's
 >pretty long (9 pages). It is only a draft and comments/ suggestions/offers
 >of help are welcome. It is a quick rewrite of Convention 2, I hope that the
 >Geneva Convention Guys don't sue me...  >>

yes...  please send me a copy as well..

richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:46:23 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Economics of potential courier routes

  Here's a case for a hypothetical sub-sector wide line; JumpExpress, a 
subsidiary planned as a new division of Al Morai.

  There are two sets of routes that make immediate sense; the first is Mora-
Rhylanor-Regina, & Shirene, and the second is Mora-Trin-Glisten. Each costs
about as much as another Type MK 3 Kt freighter (with 13x F-5 and 9x F-6,
respectively); clearly a company with capitalization over _BCr_ 100 can get
cheap financing, or simply pay from cash flow. Worst case they can reduce
dividends for a year or two (nominal outflow of BCr 2/a.) - given their
corporate structure they can realistically expect to capitalize by simply
issuing a couple million new shares for each route.

  The company will need to install way stations at the 100-D limits of Echiste,
Vanejen, and Mercury, plus a cache at 3130; the costs of these will need to be
explored, but demountable/drop tanks tethered to ancient hulks or rocks feature
heavily in the plan. All of the other sites should already have easily available
commercial docking facilities. Overhauls are performed at corp Head Office: Mora,
at the corp facilities already existing there.

  Other admin and overhead costs are largely covered - in fact, this will
greatly speed up company internal commo, and the extra ships needed to cover
overhauls have already been included. The fiscal and admin load added to a 
company with 53 (SMC p. 30 is a typo) 3000 Dt ships is trivial; the issue
becomes whether 4-week service (plus up to one weeks delay) from Regina to
Mora is worth paying for to enough customers for it to be profitable?

  It seems unquestionable that the connecting of Glisten-Trin-Mora-Rhylanor
using J-6 must be profitable; at TL F, population 8-10 billion each (SMC)
these are the economies that are genuinely significant in the Marches (which
doesn't say much for the rest of the Imperial sector). If these 34 billion
customers can provide gross revenue of less than MCr 400 p.a. then the new
system runs at a significant profit, and that's assuming TCS maintenance costs
of _10%_ of ship cost annually (try that with a normal merchant!), or a mere
Cr 400,000 in carried data charges per launch (halved if using B:2 annuals).

  Thus, JumpExpress would provide six-week data service from Trin to Regina,
requiring from one to four years to implement, and representing only a 2-3%
increase in capitalization over that period. The only aspect in which this
is significant would be the addition of a new type of customer & service. 

  In each case each two-jump segment represents a savings of at least a
week over even enhanced use of the X-Boat routes (i.e., skipping short
legs), with the exception of Mora-Shirene which is meant for company
internal use mainly and largely unnecessary given the availability of
the four Gazelles for this task.

  In summation, this project would be highly compatible with existing
company operations and infrastructure, profitable, and could run under
0.5% of capitalization for a minimum installation over two years.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 08:45:07
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1212

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network
>
>I can be worth money, but is it worth the money to routinely get
>info 33% quicker?  And how much traffic will that generate.
>Remember, we have a culture built around instant communications.
>A day makes a big difference when everyone gets info overnight,
>but few people will pay that much more to get info at 8 AM
>instead of 11 AM.  (Sure some will, most won't).

Tell you what, David.

Lets play a game. We buy and sell stocks and bonds off each other. You have
a one-week old information. I dont. 

Now, come the first takeover bid, minerals strike, war, change of line at
court, change of personell at court, I am going to take you to the cleaners.

>
>Similarly, were there networks of horse couriers and fast
>ships just to carry messages in Renaissance?  Sure some
>traders had such ships, but there weren't ships at every
>port for just such messages (later the US had the pony
>express, but that is actually noted because it was unusual
>and it didn't try and be a system for general communications).

Funnily enough, yes there were such systems, and people quite happily paid
through the nose to use them. Especially people like Jakob Fugger and
Philip II, and their people.

Large chunks of most books by Braudel are about communication times, and
their effects on commerce and diplomacy, which were pretty severe.

>Yes, there are a number of things you could do if you were willing
>skip intermediate stops even with jump-4.  And  doesn't involve
>having two differnent kinds of ships.



>> It does look odd when Hortalez et Cie
>>is happy with their internal commo trickling along at 2.6 parsecs/week,
>>doesn't it?
>
>For their routine traffic, not at all.

Information is dense. Exteremly dense. You can put everything your customer
in Dabei needs to know about commerce on Earth this week on a CD Rom.

>
>>  BTW, if the IN has "one or two" couriers available for when news of the
>>start of hostilities reaches them, then they are _f$%ked_. A sector HQ
>>that can't deploy J-6 couriers to all it's constituent fleets in one push
>>is not being run by sapient life forms.
>
>The idea was one or two at any major location.

How many jump-6 200 dton Fleet Couriers can we buy for the cost of one 20
000kt battlewagon ?

>That the point.  If you are putting up a network with the kind of
>service that the Xboats show with the same kind of coverage you
>are talking about a non-trivial cost.

No. It's pretty trivial. At least for the Imperium or a Megacorporation.

Under any design system, you can build a jump-6 200 dton Express Courier
for within an order of magnitude of the cost of a jump-2 200 dton Far Trader.

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network
>
>[Stuff already covered in other posts...]
>
>One of the problems is that the cost of jump-6 X-boats has come down since
CT.
>
>In CT the cost is 155MCr
>
>In T4 the cost is about 40MCr, G:T aboudt 35MCr. With discounts about 30MCr.
>
>Now at 155MCr the person who thought that converting over from J4 to J6
>would be betting the company was wrong (producing and maintaining S and X
>ships is a BIG business).

MCr 155 per unit is quite doable for a megacorp or a big bank.

Assuming four per stop, thats an investment of about MCr 600 per stop ...
amortise it over 20 years, or when we have advance news of something
important an commercially sensitive.

>J3+ ships would be almost impossible to finance, since they can outrun
>the bank records if they do continual jumps.

I'd phrase that 'almost impossible to secure with a mortgage on the ship'.
If you have other assets, not a problem.

The other option is to abandon mortgage financing as the standard method of
financing Free Traders ... I like the 'Your family owns the ship, you are
in for 5% of the net once you get back' method.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:59:51 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Cargo Containers for MT

>How canon is this? Not very; computers in FF&S2 reach a minimum size of
>0.005 cubic m at TL 12 and never get smaller. Also, canon shipments like
>the anti-rad drugs in Twilight's Peak show no evidence of this.


Actually, not entirely true. The T4 rulebook gives a good deal of
information on very small computers that are "in" just about everything.

>However, if your TU has computers smaller than bread loaves you are already
>breaking canon, and this kind of technology would be very useful for
>handling strategic, automated, and/or expensive materials in any TU.


If this is a breach of canon (and I don't think that it is) then this is one
point where canon is a breech of common sense.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )

"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
from the film "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:13:36 -0500
From: Christopher Pratt <valen@gatecom.com>
Subject: players and GMs wanted

hey folks,

My gaming group is always looking for GMs and players
(especially GMs).  we play a variety of role-playing, war
and board games, including GT and T4.  Our group is based in
the detroit area, specifically wayne, westland, garden city
etc...etc...

email me privately if interested
- -- 
later
christopher pratt
valen@gatecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:45:45 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

At 15:22 30.11.98 -0500, you wrote:
>Just an FYI
>
>G:T Aliens Volume I is in the stores! (at least my FLGS anyway <G>)

ISBN?

Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:08:54 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct

At 19:57 30/11/98 +1000, you wrote:
>
>I have just completed a rough draft of GENEVA CONVENTION FOR THE
>AMELIORATION OF THE CONDITION OF WOUNDED, SICK, MAROONED AND SHIPWRECKED
>MEMBERS OF ARMED FORCES IN SPACE OF 11 November, 2213 (GENEVA CONVENTION V).
>I have completed it up to Article 36. Email me if you are interested, it's
>pretty long (9 pages). It is only a draft and comments/ suggestions/offers
>of help are welcome. It is a quick rewrite of Convention 2, I hope that the
>Geneva Convention Guys don't sue me...
>
>Anybody got another word for Humanitarian that could apply to all species ?
>
>What organization does 3I and it's enemies have instead of the Red
>Cross/Crescent ?

The TAS, of course :)

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:15:03 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit

At 12:09 30/11/98 -0500, Walter Smith wrote:

>A mercenary has a tough job, even if his employer wins. He is an outsider
>to a situation locals were willing to kill over. He may have been the one
>ordered to do what locals were too squeamish to do, and will be a 
>reminder that there were people not too squeamish to order it done.
>I have a feeling that the battlefield may be less dangerous to the
>mercenary than politics or relations with his employer.

Some basic rules for the mercenary are: 

"Don't stand down until you've been paid." 
and
"Don't ever let the commander become seperated from his troops."

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:01:59 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

I've recently come across a new device on the market that RPG fans might
find useful in the near future. It's called the "Rocket eBook" and it's put
out by NuvoMedia.

Basically, it can store up to about 4,000 pages worth of material. It looks
like it's about the size of a stack of 3 or so LBBs. It weighs a little over
a pound (22 ounces). Right now, it doesn't look too useful. It's pricey (a
whopping $500 dollars), and it looks like it uses a proprietary format for
storage. However, they promise that a software upgrade will allow it to use
various word processor formats, as well as HTML.

It's small enough that it can be brought to a gaming table, and it appears
easy enough to use that it would be relatively unobtrusive for a GM to use
to store various materials and access them during a game. It may or may not
be useful to players though.

Apparently, you can do all of the things that you could do with a book, and
then some. You can highlight certain passages, do a comprehensive search,
bookmark frequently referenced pages, and cross reference information. They
even say that you can add notes "in the margin". Furthermore, you can adjust
font size if the text is too small. It has a backlit screen (black & white)
that can run for 20 hours or so on a charge with the light on, up to 40
hours with the light off. It connects to your computer in a special cradle.
Apparently, the books use some sort of encryption to ensure honesty when
buying books.

It would surely save me time and money (in printer paper and cartridges) if
the price comes down substantially. Right now, it's only available through
one company's catalog, but in early 1999 it's going to go national.

Right now, there's only potential. If they can make it work with many file
formats, and the price comes down to around a hundred dollars it'll probably
replace my Traveller binder.

If you're interested in more info, check out:

http://www.rocketbook.com

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:28:51 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Size in Traveller

Leo Hale wrote:
>
> How canon is this? Not very; computers in FF&S2 reach a minimum size of
> 0.005 cubic m at TL 12 and never get smaller. 

the computers in FFS2, are descriptions of starship and vehicle
navigation systems, NOT embedded systems like what we are talking about.
After all, even though FFSn specifies a minimum size, the players have
handcomps readily available to them.

There are NO canon design references, AFAIK, regarding personal computer
systems design in any Trav incarnation.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1214
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 30 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1215



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: AHL info
Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit
Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...
Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...
Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection - Update
Re: First Contact/Vilani Expertise Requested
Re: Computer Size in Traveller
Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit
Re: Repatriation Bonds (was Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1214
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1212
is this the line to the bathroom? (Was: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...)
Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
Re: Aliens
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:21:38 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: AHL info

William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
> 
> Could anyone with a copy of the AHL box or even just Supplement 5, tell
> me if the following is in it?
> 1) How many were constructed?
> 2) How many were transferred to the IISS after they were retired from
> Navy service?

I have all this stuff in my Library, which is online. I'll post it to the list
tonight, if nobody else has by then.

Erwin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:12:54 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> Just some comments on Erwin Fritz's document:
> 
> While the information provides a lot of good ideas, I notice that he has
> the IAPC as an office of the Imperial government. I think this gives us
> some problems with canon.
> 

[Excellent points snipped]

You've brought up some stuff I hadn't considered. 

> IMTU, I'd see a group like Erwin's Imperial Association of Professional
> Combatants existing as a private organization, perhaps with unofficial
> Imperial approval. The Imperium should have some mechanism for
> licensing mercenary companies - otherwise anyone with a couple MCr
> could travel Imperial space with a yacht full of combat troops - but I think
> Erwin's vision goes a little too far.

I agree. I've always thought of the Imperium as a hands-off government. I don't
know what I was thinking when I typed that bit up. 

I've changed the relevant paragraph to:

The Imperial Association of Professional Combatants is a private organization
whose responsibility includes licensing of corporations to sell repatriation
bonds. The IAPC observes the operations of licensed bonding agencies to ensure
that their patrons pay proper obeisance to the Imperial Rules of Warfare. The
IAPC is funded partly by the fees it collects and partly by the various bonding
agencies who subscribe to its Rating system.

How's that?

Erwin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:48:36 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...

Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com> writes:
>	A misjump does't really seem that out there;  it's not that
>difficult to fail an engineering roll. 
[snip]
> 
>The odds of misjumping and ending up in the middle of nowhere seems
>atleast not out of the question!
>
>
>	Am I missing something?  Or are their tons of ghost ships out
>cruising dead in space??

Well, you've heard of the missing dark matter...   :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:01:49 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...

> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:21:22 -0500
> From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
> Subject: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...
> 
> I was thinking about this afew days ago, when I was looking over
> the rules in GURPS:  Traveller about jumping.  It seems, to me atleast,
> rather easy to botch one of the three rolls needed to jump and screw
> something up with you're jump.
> 
...
> 
>       Am I missing something?  Or are there tons of ghost ships out
> cruising dead in space??
> 

Some versions of Traveller have had high misjump chances - as high as 1-in-36 -
but sensible versions have the misjump (in the sense of "jump into a random hex"
being essentially zero for a well-maintained competently crewed ship past the
100-diameter limit. If G:T doesn't achieve this, it'll need some tweaking.
Not that less catastrophic misjumps - "jump to starting point", "jump takes
12 days", "jump comes out a million km out of position" aren't possible for
even good ships, but "jump into a random hex" should be rare.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:02:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> I've recently come across a new device on the market that RPG fans might
> find useful in the near future. It's called the "Rocket eBook" and it's put
> out by NuvoMedia.
> 
> Basically, it can store up to about 4,000 pages worth of material. It looks
> like it's about the size of a stack of 3 or so LBBs. It weighs a little over
> a pound (22 ounces). Right now, it doesn't look too useful. It's pricey (a
> whopping $500 dollars), and it looks like it uses a proprietary format for
> storage. However, they promise that a software upgrade will allow it to use
> various word processor formats, as well as HTML.
>

Yeah, they would be nice..but they gotta get cheaper (a vicious cycle of
they won't get cheaper until they sell a lot, and they won't sell a lot
until they get cheaper...) lighter, and higher resolution. There are LCD
and other technologies heading to market that will put stuff that makes
these devices look like clay cunieform tablets. Those technologies
_will_ revolutionize printing.

Sigh...of course you gotta have a Microsloth PeeCee to use one of these
Nuovo things, too. There's also a competing electronic book company with
a very similar device coming out now, too. One or the other of these has
got the backing of companies like Barnes and Noble, so there's a fair
amount of push behind these devices.

OTOH, my Newton (circa 1994 nya nya) can accomplish pretty much the same
thing, albeit with a smaller screen. Apple's made the NewtonBook
Publisher software available for free, and similar things exist for
PalmPilots, as well. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:10:18 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection - Update

Just wanted to post a short update.

I am up to 32 orders at present - my thanks to all who have ordered in the
last three weeks. 

Tomorrow I am sending FedEx'ing the covers to be autographed to Bill and
Andrew Keith. I'm only sending them 50 covers of each supplement, so if you
want your set autographed, please get your orders in pronto. Once those 50
sets are sold then that's it as far as autographed sets go.

And, a last reminder - 2 weeks left to place your pre-order... in other
words, Dec. 15 is fast approaching!

Delivery - might be delayed until Jan. 15th or so - not sure yet. Thought I
was going to get to devote the entire Christmas holiday season towards
wrapping up the project, but it is now looking like I might have my arm
twisted and need to travel out of state to be with family... Beyond that,
the project is progressing well (I've still tons of work to do on it, but
am starting to see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel).

Cordially,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:12:56 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: First Contact/Vilani Expertise Requested

I got out my copy of Cogs & Dogs....

- ----------
> From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
 
> I am about to start running my First Contact campaign, Project: 
> StarRise, and ran into a few questions while trying to iron out the 
> essentials for the background of the game.
> 

> 2)  The Vilani are present as miners in the system when the USS 
> Starleaper I arrives in system.  I want to make Ikugi the site of a 
> Vilani megacorporation, but do not know enough about the megacorps to 
> know which one would have been active in that area at that time.  
> Does anyone have any relavent information on the mercantile 
> affiliation of the belters in Ikugi at First Contact?
> 

Cogs & Dogs says that this area was under the control of Sharurshid.  It
doesn't necessarily say that the prospectors themselves were affiliated to
Sharurshid, but that's the way to bet.
 
> 3)  How was contact initially established?  I assume the surveyors 
> onboard the Starleaper I noticed the radio traffic.  Either that, or 
> the SDBs that approached the Terran vessel.  Either one would have 
> eventually led to actual attempts to contact.  The formatting of 
> visual images can be distinctly varied enough that sending/recieving 
> video images might not be viable (at least until official technical 
> specifics had been exchanged), but is there anything preventing audio 
> contact (via radio, of course)?  How was communication established 
> during this important meeting?
> 

The Vilani would have had better sensors than the Terran ship.  Chances are
they saw them first.  This is, of course, only true if they were looking. 
Cogs & Dogs has a rather "poetic" account, that might not bear too much
scrutiny.

EMS sensors would pick up radio signals pretty well.

> [Important note:  In the campaign that I am running, there has been 
> prior contact between Vilani and Terrans, which will facillitate the 
> language learning curve.  Telepathy was used in this undocumented 
> encounter.  However, the Terran agencies that made contact did not 
> make the discovery known back home, and are setting up the official 
> First Contact to appear as though no previous contact was ever made.  
> The psionic  society hidden within the Vilani megacorp is playing 
> along, in search of bigger profits, etc., as well as some conquest 
> schemes of their own.  The problem is how do the two secret societies 
> overcome the immediate problems without being obvious.]
> 

IYTU, of course.  Loren clearly expressed a different opinion in GT, which
suggests that canon will ultimately go against you.  Tough.  There ain't no
canon police.

> 4)  Shortly thereafter, Vilani and Terrans joined in several 
> joint-exploration missions, and this is where the Terrans learned of 
> the overwhelming size of the Vilani Imperium.  Was that common 
> practice?  How was such established?  Did a representative of the 
> provincial governor meet with Terran diplomats, or did the Terrans 
> travel to the governor's seat to make these arrangements?  What type 
> of vessels were used in these missions?  What kind of crew compliment 
> was used?
> 

Dunno.  I would tend to interpret the Vilani as being a bit reticent about
this kind of thing, but they might do it to check out the Terrans.  IYTU
decision.

> Ultimately, the goal of the campaign is to take the PCs through First 
> Contact, introduce them to the Vilani, do some explorations with 
> Vilani forces, learn about the secret societies manipulating Terrans 
> and Vilani toward undisclosed goals, and deal with the situation.

Mmmm.  IYTU, IYTU, IYTU.  "The secret societies manipulating Terrans and
Vilani toward undisclosed goals" bit isn't usually how Traveller works
IMHO.  That doesn't mean that secret societies don't exist, and are trying
to do this, but big Illuminati stuff tends not to happen.  Again IYTU.
  
> The scenarios eventually lead to the First Interstellar War, and 
> explain why the upper levels of the Solomani forces develop a 
> fear/hatred of psionics.  It is this fear/hatred that serves as the 
> basis for the current 3I opinion regarding psionics, as it was 
> handed down over the generations from the Rule of Man.
> 

Cogs & Dogs suggests that it was the Vilani with the longstanding thing
against psionics.  My reading of the Terrans is that they were pretty much
opportunists who would use anything, at this period.  M0 might have a bit
more on this.  IYTU.

> The conspiratorial background of the campaign derives in flavor from 
> X-Files, Space Above And Beyond, B5, and similar sci-fi plots where 
> all is not quite as it seems.  While the conspiracy eventually 
> becomes the campaign focus, the governments and other 
> political/social organizations involved keep the matter suppressed 
> in regards to the media and the general populace, and thus it never 
> becomes a part of the "official" history.
> 

RW conspiracies tend to leak after a while.  Or at last the ones we find
out about are the ones that leaked...

There was a thing towards the end of the French Revolution called the
"Conspiracy of Equals".  It failed, and was broken up.  By some accounts,
it was a precursor of the later Communist movement.  This is in the history
books, but few people know about it.  Why don't people know about it? 
Because it was a long time ago, and who cares, anyway?  Maybe "official"
history is the history known to non-historians.

A campaign where all is quite what it seems is pretty dull.  Personally, I
wouldn't go as far as you are giving the impression you are in conspiracy
building.  I'd maybe have a future version of Hubble/SETI spot that there
is something odd happening around Barnard's Star, inspiring the US mission
there.  Obviously, that's IMTU.

Canonically, there were "scientific reasons" for the expedition going to
Barnard's Star, rather than to Alpha Centauri.  It's up to you what those
reasons were IYTU.

> More contemporary campaign ideas may be PCs who discover part of the 
> picture in M:0 or M:1115ish, and must deal with a group that wants to 
> resurrect the directions of one of the two original secret societies, 
> and a group that demands that the information be suppressed.  ("We've 
> guarded this secret for 3000 years.  We're not going to let the 
> truth/this embarrassment come out now, after generations of work.  
> Kill them.")  This is the direction of the campaign idea I will 
> pursue after the StarRise campaign runs its course.
> 

I don't know that it would matter that much after 3000 years!

> I would welcome any comments and criticisms that anyone has to offer, 
> the more constructive the better.
> 
> All information obtained and utilized will be documented on the 
> Project: StarRise website, which will be announced soon.  (Got half 
> the Traveller HERO rules conversion complete, and gotta get that 
> finished so I can actually game first.)
> 
> Thanks for your time.
> 
> In Service,
> Jason
> ============================
> Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
> (512)458-7111 ext. 3375
> 
> Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

I hope this was interesting/relevant.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:27:32 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Computer Size in Traveller

> >> And why would anyone stick a computer on a wooden container
> >>filled with pool-ball fruit? how much does this computer cost? how
about
> >>the sensors to determine the weight? the door open/close sensores? the
> >>utra-secure scrambled radios needed for them to work as you describe? 
Or
> >>do they all have meson coms?

Such a computer would cost about as much as the chip in your microwave
oven.

> The answer would depend on computer technology IYTU. If computers
continue
> to decrease in size and increase in performance, it's reasonable to
expect
> that advanced actuarial systems can be built into disposable computers
> smaller and cheaper than rice grains. Such actuarial computers could be
> built into consumer goods, labels, or stuck onto each pool-ball fruit en
> mass. They could handle things like repair and warranty records, maintain
> stock and shipment schedules, and include transponders, accelerometers,
and
> memory to track time and position.
> 

Or, they could handle transfers of ownership, and act as seals on the
box...  "Why don't you have any records on where you bought this fruit?" 
Or, "why does it say that this fruit belongs to Tukera Lines?"
Of course they can be forged.  That's what forgery skill is for.  They also
would be useful for the person/robot handling the cargo.

> All the data would be recorded on non-volatile memory and downloaded
> remotely. Scrambled radios and accountants would not be necessary, all
the
> logic and sensory circuits would be burned into the machines. The cost
> would be negligible and would not require any support staff.
> 

Read them with hand held scanners - like a barcode reader.

> How canon is this? Not very; computers in FF&S2 reach a minimum size of
> 0.005 cubic m at TL 12 and never get smaller. Also, canon shipments like
> the anti-rad drugs in Twilight's Peak show no evidence of this.
> 
> However, if your TU has computers smaller than bread loaves you are
already
> breaking canon, and this kind of technology would be very useful for
> handling strategic, automated, and/or expensive materials in any TU.

You can't run Battle Dress with these chips!  Obviously this is an IYTU
thing, but it's still chalk and cheese with the computers in FF&S, IMHO.

>       I know it is not thought of well by most Traveller players ( I have
>       yet to make a determination since while I have the books I have not
>       played) but in T4 basic book there is a great section on life at
>       TL-12.  One of the descriptions mentions that computers are in
>       everything, from the house and car to the holo display on the box
of
>       space crunch.  They mention that the computers are imprinted into
the
>       fibre's of the cereal box itself and have a battery life that
matches
>       the shelf life of the cereal itself.  What you do in your Traveller
>       Universe is up to you, but it seems that the computers designed in
>       FF&S (either version) are for vehicles and starcraft, and therefor
>       much larger and powerful than the ones in the containers you
>       describe.

Personally I like this section.  Unfortunately I only use the bits I
remember when I ref, since I don't carry 12 armfuls of books around....

I don't have a problem with computers below the capacity of the ones in
FF&S being all over the place.  Personally, I regard them as furniture and
background, and would only attempt to regulate them if PCs tried to abuse
them.  From my experience, players (from a TL8 background) simply don't
realise exactly how much such stuff is around them in a TL12-15 setting. 
If they've been playing D&D or similar recently, half of them are likely to
forget TELEPHONES exist!   (I did this once - very embarrasing).

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:05:38 -0500
From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
Subject: Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit

> Basic idea:  your'e a merc, you fight a war. You lose. If you're
> captured, you don't hang around in a POW camp, but get shipped out,
> paid for by repat bond. Depending on the particulars of the contract,
> most likely, you get out with your personal possessions. The winners
> may get to keep captured equipment, etc.

	Hmm.  That could end up getting expensive.  What caused these
repartition bonds to come into fashion??  I mean, it seems that paying
for getting off the planet of any captured mercs *in addition* to the
money the merc company gets just for fighting the war seems just abit
too much.  Hmmm.

	Intresting though.



- -- 
Brandon,

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:10:29 -0500
From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
Subject: Re: Repatriation Bonds (was Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit)

> Of course you'll take the contract (just as soon as they let you lock
> up all those guns).  Those bonds are in essence a bank draft drawn on
> the account of Hortalez et Cie, and as such as good as currency. They
> may be better than the local currency, in fact, if what these guys say
> about the fate of the government is true...

	Alright!  That makes even more sense.  As I said in the other
message, though, that could easily end up being very expensive.  I
guess that's just the cost of war, though.




- -- 
Brandon,

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:15:19 -0800
From: "Leo Hale" <lhale@panlabs.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1214

Leo Hale wrote:
>
> How canon is this? Not very; computers in FF&S2 reach a minimum size of
> 0.005 cubic m at TL 12 and never get smaller.
- - --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

- ------------------------------
     Excuse me but you have quoted the following person:
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:07:34 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Cargo Containers for MT
     but placed my name on his information, when my post was in answer to
his stating the same thing you have just said.  Not to be picky, but
pleaswe make sure you are answering the correct person since I already know
comercial computers come in vering sizes while the ones in FF&S (any
version) are for large vehicles and starcraft.

Leo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:28:45 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1212

Tue, 01 Dec 1998 08:45:07, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>I can be worth money, but is it worth the money to routinely get
>>info 33% quicker?  And how much traffic will that generate.
>>Remember, we have a culture built around instant communications.
>>A day makes a big difference when everyone gets info overnight,
>>but few people will pay that much more to get info at 8 AM
>>instead of 11 AM.  (Sure some will, most won't).

>Tell you what, David.

>Lets play a game. We buy and sell stocks and bonds off each other. You have
>a one-week old information. I dont.

Even better.   I get info that is six weeks old and you get info
that is only four weeks old, but you also have to pay and twice
the commission that I pay.  I would take that one.

>Now, come the first takeover bid, minerals strike, war, change of line at
>court, change of personell at court, I am going to take you to the cleaners.

Not when those who are already on planet have already scooped up
the sitations.  The fact is that the invetible delay means that
some of the approaches we are used to in modern society won't
work.  Now I'm not saying there won't be some situations where
timely info won't be useful, but is there enough volume to
support an X=boat level jump-6 service?  That is debatable.

>>Similarly, were there networks of horse couriers and fast
>>ships just to carry messages in Renaissance?  Sure some
>>traders had such ships, but there weren't ships at every
>>port for just such messages (later the US had the pony
>>express, but that is actually noted because it was unusual
>>and it didn't try and be a system for general communications).

>Funnily enough, yes there were such systems, and people quite happily paid
>through the nose to use them. Especially people like Jakob Fugger and
>Philip II, and their people.

There were dedicated messengers.  There were not such systems for
routine communications.  If you had to pay off to a bank in florence
you didn't use the equivalent of a jump-6 courier.  You used the
equivalent of regular mail.

>>> It does look odd when Hortalez et Cie
>>>is happy with their internal commo trickling along at 2.6 parsecs/week,
>>>doesn't it?

>>For their routine traffic, not at all.

>Information is dense. Exteremly dense. You can put everything your customer
>in Dabei needs to know about commerce on Earth this week on a CD Rom.

So?

>>>  BTW, if the IN has "one or two" couriers available for when news of the
>>>start of hostilities reaches them, then they are _f$%ked_. A sector HQ
>>>that can't deploy J-6 couriers to all it's constituent fleets in one push
>>>is not being run by sapient life forms.
>>
>>The idea was one or two at any major location.
>
>How many jump-6 200 dton Fleet Couriers can we buy for the cost of one 20
>000kt battlewagon ?

I don't know.  It really doesn't matter.  Large organizations don't
waste money on things because something else cost a lot more.  The
US government doesn't waste money on cars it can't justify a need
for because a tank costs so much.

>>That the point.  If you are putting up a network with the kind of
>>service that the Xboats show with the same kind of coverage you
>>are talking about a non-trivial cost.
>
>No. It's pretty trivial. At least for the Imperium or a Megacorporation.
>
>Under any design system, you can build a jump-6 200 dton Express Courier
>for within an order of magnitude of the cost of a jump-2 200 dton Far Trader.

And how does this show the cost of the entire network would be "trivial"?

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:33:09 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: is this the line to the bathroom? (Was: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...)

>	Am I missing something?  Or are their tons of ghost ships out
>cruising dead in space??
>

In my original Traveller game, For an actual misjump to occure (sp) The
players had to 
A. roll a misjump.
	Which would put them on my 100 item misjump chart
B. Roll on the misjump chart.
	Which contained everthing from a really bad misjump accident to just the
engine (and rear portion of the ship) jumping to feul venting to circuts
popping. 
	At face value yes the odds are not in favor of the ship jumping since you
have to successfully roll three skills to jump. I think a combined skill
roll of all three areas averaged and one player rolls for the three players
involved would be apporpirate (sp) (Pardon my spelling I just woke up and
am heading to work.)
What I mean is if you have three players with 16, 17, 16 skill in the three
areas you need to make the jump then average them together and let one
player ( a different player each time) make the roll for the group, that
way the odds of failing are a little lower (the more times you roll the
greater your odds of failing) for the group.
otherwise as it stands now the failure rate for jumps is three times as
high as intended.
opps gotta get to work.
laters

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:42:12 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

At 05:02 PM 11/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Chris Seamans wrote:
>> 
>> I've recently come across a new device on the market that RPG fans might
>> find useful in the near future. It's called the "Rocket eBook" and it's put
>> out by NuvoMedia.
>> 
>> Basically, it can store up to about 4,000 pages worth of material. It looks
>> like it's about the size of a stack of 3 or so LBBs. It weighs a little over
>> a pound (22 ounces). Right now, it doesn't look too useful. It's pricey (a
>> whopping $500 dollars), and it looks like it uses a proprietary format for
>> storage. However, they promise that a software upgrade will allow it to use
>> various word processor formats, as well as HTML.
>>
>
>Yeah, they would be nice..but they gotta get cheaper (a vicious cycle of
>they won't get cheaper until they sell a lot, and they won't sell a lot
>until they get cheaper...) lighter, and higher resolution. There are LCD
>and other technologies heading to market that will put stuff that makes
>these devices look like clay cunieform tablets. Those technologies
>_will_ revolutionize printing.
>
>Sigh...of course you gotta have a Microsloth PeeCee to use one of these
>Nuovo things, too. There's also a competing electronic book company with
>a very similar device coming out now, too. One or the other of these has
>got the backing of companies like Barnes and Noble, so there's a fair
>amount of push behind these devices.
>
>OTOH, my Newton (circa 1994 nya nya) can accomplish pretty much the same
>thing, albeit with a smaller screen. Apple's made the NewtonBook
>Publisher software available for free, and similar things exist for
>PalmPilots, as well. 

On the horizon is Apple's P1 consumer portable.  Priced in the sub $1000
range, it is slated to have an 11" or so color screen, 100BT Ethernet, USB,
and a host of other goodies.  And, it will run the MacOS. 

A bit expensive for the GM's assistant, but, at least it can do a lot more
than the M$ WinCE toys on the market.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:13:31 -0500
From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens

> and follow the instructions for submitting a proposal. This can be a
> cooperative project (if you can get a co-author who is as thrilled
> about the one alien as you are about the other, that is).

Didn't you forget the little note about how David Pulver already has
Minor Races for all the Alien Races books all written up, and you'd have
to use them in the Alien Races II, III, and IV;  and thus share
co-author credit with him.  Or has that changed?



- -- 
Brandon,

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:27:36 -0500
From: cmdrx <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:45:45 +0100
> From: "Volker A. Greimann" <greimann@geocities.com>
> Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
> 
> At 15:22 30.11.98 -0500, you wrote:
> >Just an FYI
> >
> >G:T Aliens Volume I is in the stores! (at least my FLGS anyway <G>)
> ISBN?
> 
> Volker
> - ---
> Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com
> 
> ------------------------------

ISBN...ISBN...lemmee see, where is that thing...

Here it is:  ISBN 1-55634-361-2

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:38:53 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

>until they get cheaper...) lighter, and higher resolution. There are LCD
>and other technologies heading to market that will put stuff that makes
>these devices look like clay cunieform tablets. Those technologies
>_will_ revolutionize printing.


    I'm holding out until I can get a display that I can fold up and put in my
pocket, and that has the capability to hold up to 1Mbyte of text or
black & white graphics.  Some of the technologies coming together are
amazingly close to this now.

Eric

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1215
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1216



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit
Re: Thanksgiving (USA) 
Gene is in orbit...
Space Religeon (Was (Re: Amish in Space) ***And a bunch of other stuff*** :) )
re: B5 Spoilers are Justified!
Status of Forces Agreement (Was: Re: various stuff (german uboats))
Re: Re Verisimilitude
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
G:T misjump chances
Re: AHL info
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...
Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
Re: Gene is in orbit...
Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
Re: Gene is in orbit...
Re: Status of Forces Agreement (Was: Re: various stuff (german uboats))
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Where to get CT
Re: Gene is in orbit...
Re: Gene is in orbit...
Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection - Update
Re: Where to get CT
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:16:24 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit

- ----------
> From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit
> Date: Tuesday, 1 December 1998 10:05
> 

> 	Hmm.  That could end up getting expensive.  What caused these
> repartition bonds to come into fashion??  I mean, it seems that paying
> for getting off the planet of any captured mercs *in addition* to the
> money the merc company gets just for fighting the war seems just abit
> too much.  Hmmm.
> 

They came into fashion because your mercs would have to be nuts not to have
them.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:29:57 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving (USA) 

At 04:23 AM 11/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> ...
>> >As for Thanksgiving:  a good way to approach it would have been to outline
>> >the true (not sanitised) history of the Mayflower landing, and draw
>> ...
>> 
>>   No turkey tripods with heat-rays? :(
>
>Turkeys, being bipedal, would use bipedal walkers, whouldn't they?  Not 
>tripods, right?
>
Not nescessarily...

We're bi-peds, but our primary means of locomotion is quadrapedal (4 tires)

- --0-0--
   ^
\_____/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:44:42 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Gene is in orbit...

> Methinks Gene is spinning at Warp 9 in his grave...

Little bit of Trivia...

Gene was buried in space, ashes scattered from one of the shuttles, so if
he's spinning, it's in orbit.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:04:00 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Space Religeon (Was (Re: Amish in Space) ***And a bunch of other stuff*** :) )

At 11:39 PM 11/28/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Ob Traveller: the Great Amish in Space thread covers this nicely.
Besides; I
>> think that Judaism will probably get assimilated into Christianity by
5600AD
>> and it will be a moot point :-(
>
> IMTU, both Christianity and Judaism rejoin with their brothers in Islam.
(The
>funny
>this was the more I studied the more I leaned toward Islam, and/or Orthodox
>Chistianity). I have the more extreme sects making up some of the more vocal
>factions.

On a more general note, would space travel promote or detract the power of
religeon?

In space, science rules (generally... just ask John Glenn how much luck
helps). However, most religeons are based on a "mythology" (term used
loosely to describe Genesis as well as Olympus, no slant on their validity)
which is brought into question by the existance of space.

However, if you read the journals of many of the early and mid 20th century
physisists, you'll find their highly religeos, they do their reaserch to
"figure out how God really did it".

So, how will the existance of God and the "truiths" of Science co-exist in
space, will the two enhance each other, or will one quench the other?

<pun!>
(And God forbid that we would actually find a race in space with another
religeon)
</pun>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:46:32 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: re: B5 Spoilers are Justified!

At 03:36 PM 11/28/98 +0000, you wrote:
>At 00:36 28/11/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:
>>
>>>The spoliers for the last 5 episodes of Babylon 5 are a just and righteous
>>>punishment for those of you in the UK who have easy access to BITS
>>>products, while we here in the States must languish unfulfilled.
>>
>
>What is B5 <ewg>
>
What cave have you been in?
<Duck!!!!!!!!!!!!>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:40:45 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Status of Forces Agreement (Was: Re: various stuff (german uboats))

>I also seem to recall that US troops in the UK were subject to different
>rules and effectively exempt from UK civil law. The US could ship them
>straight back home instead because of treaty agreements. I can remember
>this happening after an assault of some sort.

It's called a Status of Forces Agreement, a standard treaty with US forward
deployed countries. I believe the precident for the agreement is similar to
the aggreement regarding diplomats and local laws. I'll guarantee the
soldiers in question didn't get away with what they did once the Uniform
Code of Military Justice got hold of them, especially if there was a
significant breach of conduct to conciter (significant property damage, etc).

This same SoFA does allow for turning the soldiers over to civilian
authorities in cases of Capital offenses. We were warned sternly about this
in Japan.

On topic: Imperial forces on member worlds/client states would or would not
be subject to local civil/criminal law?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:52:06 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Re Verisimilitude

At 12:34 PM 11/28/98 -0900, you wrote:
>>
>>I'll suspend my disbelief about many of the things you mention but not
>>necessarily about the way in which they are claimed to work.  If you
>>claim to have an antigrav drive powered by a petrol engine and dental
>>floss I won't suspend my disbelief.
>>- --
>>Martin Hardgrave
>Well, if you weave the dental floss into a sturdy belt from the motor to
>the generator, and then power the damned Gravitics that way....
>
>Internal Combustion Petrol Engines CAN be used to (just barely) power a
>very very marginal grav vehicle by at least some of the design sequences.
>
Pointer...

Make sure you have two motors, one set to rotate in the OPPOSITE direction
to negate the torque...

Otherwise, you'll need some good internal compensators, but concitering
your needing to use a petrol engine, you'll likely not have them.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:10:29 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

>G:T Aliens Volume I is in the stores! (at least my FLGS anyway <G>)

Doh, my FLGS had better have my copy waiting for me this weekend when I go in!

>other dog-like traits.  I seen a picture of 3 Vargr in a bar LAPPING their
>drinks from a bowl! :-)

Um, wasn't this picture in the Spinward marches book?

Haven't gotten this supplement yet, and already can't wait for the next :^)

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:08:03
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: G:T misjump chances

G:T misjump chances are simply too high.

I would suggest that the chances listed are the odds of doing it all in a
20 minute time frame - if you use the 'Trading Energy for Skill' rules out
of Gurps Basic as 'Trading Time for Skill', then you can (by taking things
nice and easy) have an average crew (skill 12-14) safely jump, barring crit
failures.

Of course, you need a crack crew to do the much more difficult task of
managing a jump out in combat.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:25:56 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: AHL info

 William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

>Could anyone with a copy of the AHL box or even just Supplement 5, tell

>me if the following is in it?
>1) How many were constructed?
>2) How many were transferred to the IISS after they were retired from
>Navy service?
>
>(actually if anyone would sell me even a photocopy of S5 it would be
>really helpful for an adventure I'm working on right now.)
>

1)  92 were constructed, hull numbers 6326-6416, 6418 (all ships named)
15 active as of 1107

2)  5 were transfered to the Scouts
     6336 Luray Explorer (ex-Gilded Farthing)  Exploration
     6362 Bright Light (ex-Sparkling Observer)  Exploration
     6385 Vermillion Stance    Exploration
     6388 Infrequent Refuge    Dispatch
     6406 Imperial Reaumur    Dispatch

     7 converted to commericial service
     2 transfered to the Darrian Confederation
     2 transfered to the Vegan Autonomous District

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:55:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

- ---Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net> wrote:
Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> On a more general note, would space travel promote or detract the
power of religeon?

Just out of curiousity, what passage of scripture
(Koran/Talmud/Bible)contradicts current scientific facts with
reference to space travel?

Not trolling, here.  Certainly there is much in the history of the OTU
that would do so, but no scientific fact invalidates the Abrahamic
covenant or those built on it.  As a matter of fact, I think that a
very interesting universe could be built using prophesy.

Man is a religious being, can't help it.  Always looking for something
to serve: a king, a flag, a god, pleasure, drugs, money, science,
knowledge, nature.  You name it, man will find a way to idolize it.  I
dare say that if an emperor proclaimed himself a god, many would
follow him (many examples here).  Relics would be worshipped,
technology would be.  Charms and tokens and idols would abound.  A
Mule, the odd psycic, kings, the galactic core... You name it.  The
more populated the universe, the more shades or religion, cultism and
idolatry there would be.  There is no period of human history, no
matter how "enlightened" the culture, that is free of idol worship. 
Every new culture encountered just adds another pantheon to the list.



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4+ ?tg ru++ 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:49:41 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

>Yeah, they would be nice..but they gotta get cheaper (a vicious cycle of
>they won't get cheaper until they sell a lot, and they won't sell a lot
>until they get cheaper...) lighter, and higher resolution. There are LCD
>and other technologies heading to market that will put stuff that makes
>these devices look like clay cunieform tablets. Those technologies
>_will_ revolutionize printing.


I haven't really gotten a chance to look at the resolution, but if the
various pictures I've seen can be believed, it doesn't look all too bad. If
they can bring the price down, I'd love it. At 22 ounces, I'm not sure I'd
want them to make it any lighter, I'd be afraid it would blow away :-)

>Sigh...of course you gotta have a Microsloth PeeCee to use one of these
>Nuovo things, too. There's also a competing electronic book company with
>a very similar device coming out now, too. One or the other of these has
>got the backing of companies like Barnes and Noble, so there's a fair
>amount of push behind these devices.


It's the Rocket eBook that has the support of Barnes & Noble. Also, they
claim that a Macintosh compatible Rocket eBook will be out sometime in 1999.
I had glanced at this and must have forgotten to put it into the write up,
since I know that many of you are Macintosh folks.

There are two other competitors coming out, both of which will be heavier (3
pounds and 4 pounds respectively), and both will be aimed towards corporate
buyers. I'm willing to bet that'll come with a corporate price tag.

>OTOH, my Newton (circa 1994 nya nya) can accomplish pretty much the same
>thing, albeit with a smaller screen. Apple's made the NewtonBook
>Publisher software available for free, and similar things exist for
>PalmPilots, as well.


The relatively high cost of various handheld units has put me off to them in
the past... That, and none of them had a simple enough interface for me to
think of using in the middle of running a game. I hope that the current
price (for the eBook) is for the technophiles that _must_ be the first to
have a new toy.

At any rate, just thought I'd mention it. I'll be looking out for a price
drop :-)

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:59:32 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...

At 01:21 PM 30/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I was thinking about this afew days ago, when I was looking over
>the rules in GURPS:  Traveller about jumping.  It seems, to me atleast,
>rather easy to botch one of the three rolls needed to jump and screw
>something up with you're jump.
>
>	A misjump does't really seem that out there;  it's not that
>difficult to fail an engineering roll.  One of the options on this is
>a misdirected jump.  It seems to me that, unless the ship has enough
>fuel for more than one jump, he's more or less screwed if that happens.
>There's alot more 'empty space' in space than their are other places.
>The odds of misjumping and ending up in the middle of nowhere seems
>atleast not out of the question!
>
>
>	Am I missing something?  Or are their tons of ghost ships out
>cruising dead in space??
>
        IMTU, since Jump seems to be influenced by gravity wells, the
"random direction, random distance" misjump always winds up coming out near
*some* gravity well....  wether or not it is a *useful* gravity well is a
different story.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:59:53 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

>On the horizon is Apple's P1 consumer portable.  Priced in the sub $1000
>range, it is slated to have an 11" or so color screen, 100BT Ethernet, USB,
>and a host of other goodies.  And, it will run the MacOS.
>
>A bit expensive for the GM's assistant, but, at least it can do a lot more
>than the M$ WinCE toys on the market.


Sometimes, all you need is a toy. Why would I want an 11" color screen, 100
BT Ethernet, USB and a host of other goodies when all I'll really need is
something I can use to store and retrieve information really quickly? :-)

On the other hand, as I stated to Bruce Johnson, the eBook will have a
Macintosh compatible unit out sometime during 1999. If they're to be
believed, it'll hopefully be useful for everyone.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:27:47 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Gene is in orbit...

Imaginactra wrote:
> 
> > Methinks Gene is spinning at Warp 9 in his grave...
> 
> Little bit of Trivia...
> 
> Gene was buried in space, ashes scattered from one of the shuttles, so if
> he's spinning, it's in orbit.

I remember there being talk of doing this, but was it actually done?
Were Gene's ashes brought up on a shuttle and dispersed?
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:45:27 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

At 09:59 PM 11/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>On the horizon is Apple's P1 consumer portable.  Priced in the sub $1000
>>range, it is slated to have an 11" or so color screen, 100BT Ethernet, USB,
>>and a host of other goodies.  And, it will run the MacOS.
>>
>>A bit expensive for the GM's assistant, but, at least it can do a lot more
>>than the M$ WinCE toys on the market.
>
>
>Sometimes, all you need is a toy. Why would I want an 11" color screen, 100
>BT Ethernet, USB and a host of other goodies when all I'll really need is
>something I can use to store and retrieve information really quickly? :-)
>
>On the other hand, as I stated to Bruce Johnson, the eBook will have a
>Macintosh compatible unit out sometime during 1999. If they're to be
>believed, it'll hopefully be useful for everyone.

From what I read about the eBook, it is currently for published works only.
Sometime later in the next release it will be able to store other types of
media.

I would choose something like a Newton or P1 for the simple reason I can
use it as something other than a glorified viewscreen, I can actually do
things with it and automate the flow of the game.  I guess it is just that
I prefer an active device where I can create information to something that
just displays previously developed information.  

I think it would be interesting if some sort of wireless network could be
developed so that something like a P1 could have the eBook as display
terminals...

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:53:05 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Gene is in orbit...

At 08:27 PM 30/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Imaginactra wrote:
>> 
>> > Methinks Gene is spinning at Warp 9 in his grave...
>> 
>> Little bit of Trivia...
>> 
>> Gene was buried in space, ashes scattered from one of the shuttles, so if
>> he's spinning, it's in orbit.
>
>I remember there being talk of doing this, but was it actually done?
>Were Gene's ashes brought up on a shuttle and dispersed?

        It was done, but not by Shuttle.  Independant company in Europe has
developed an air-launched SSTO vehicle with a very small payload capacity.
Its first flight was to conduct the "Burial In Space" of "The Great Bird"
and a few others.  I believe the vehicle itself stayed in orbit for several
weeks and then re-entered and burned up.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:24:26 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Status of Forces Agreement (Was: Re: various stuff (german uboats))

In a message dated 11/30/98 6:09:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
russcm@zoomnet.net writes:

<< This same SoFA does allow for turning the soldiers over to civilian
 authorities in cases of Capital offenses. We were warned sternly about this
 in Japan. >>

On the opposite side of the coin; my friend was a US Army Laison Officer in
Germany in the 70's. He told me that when the Germans arrested US personel for
capitol crimes (I guess they grabbed them before the MP's/CID did...); they
would refuse to extradite if there was a chance of the death penalty being
invoked....

Ob Trav: What happens when a planet has the death penalty and the Imperium
doesn't or vice versa?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:46:08 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

At 06:55 PM 11/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>---Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net> wrote:
>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>> On a more general note, would space travel promote or detract the
>power of religeon?
>
>Just out of curiousity, what passage of scripture
>(Koran/Talmud/Bible)contradicts current scientific facts with
>reference to space travel?

Nothing contradicts the ability to travel in space, the very concept is
foreign to most ancient writings. The concepts of the universe presented in
most mythohistorical belief systems give a definate shape to the universe.
Most people who called the earth round in the middle ages were killed or
worse just for professing such heracy.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:14:44 -0800
From: "Kirk L. Kroeker" <kkroeker@earthlink.net>
Subject: Where to get CT


Thanks,

Kirk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:12:08 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Gene is in orbit...

At 08:27 PM 11/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Imaginactra wrote:
>> 
>> > Methinks Gene is spinning at Warp 9 in his grave...
>> 
>> Little bit of Trivia...
>> 
>> Gene was buried in space, ashes scattered from one of the shuttles, so if
>> he's spinning, it's in orbit.
>
>I remember there being talk of doing this, but was it actually done?
>Were Gene's ashes brought up on a shuttle and dispersed?

In A&E's Biography episode on him, Majel explained how and when it was done.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:14:52 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Gene is in orbit...

At 11:53 PM 11/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 08:27 PM 30/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Imaginactra wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Methinks Gene is spinning at Warp 9 in his grave...
>>> 
>>> Little bit of Trivia...
>>> 
>>> Gene was buried in space, ashes scattered from one of the shuttles, so if
>>> he's spinning, it's in orbit.
>>
>>I remember there being talk of doing this, but was it actually done?
>>Were Gene's ashes brought up on a shuttle and dispersed?
>
>        It was done, but not by Shuttle.  Independant company in Europe has
>developed an air-launched SSTO vehicle with a very small payload capacity.
>Its first flight was to conduct the "Burial In Space" of "The Great Bird"
>and a few others.  I believe the vehicle itself stayed in orbit for several
>weeks and then re-entered and burned up.

You sure it was Gene, I seem to recall the A&E Biography having footage of
Gene's burial.

I could be wrong, I'll see what I can find.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 17:22:13 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit

At 19:05 30/11/98 -0500, Brandon Quina wrote:
>> Basic idea:  your'e a merc, you fight a war. You lose. If you're
>> captured, you don't hang around in a POW camp, but get shipped out,
>> paid for by repat bond. Depending on the particulars of the contract,
>> most likely, you get out with your personal possessions. The winners
>> may get to keep captured equipment, etc.
>
>	Hmm.  That could end up getting expensive.  What caused these
>repartition bonds to come into fashion??  I mean, it seems that paying
>for getting off the planet of any captured mercs *in addition* to the
>money the merc company gets just for fighting the war seems just abit
>too much.  Hmmm.

I've always tended to think of the bonds as being something along the lines
of a ransom. You get captured and at the end of the contract period your
bond is cashed in by your captor and you get released with passage
off-world. The bond is also a guarantee that you'll be able to get
off-world if your employer fails to pay you, or your company gets wasted.

Of course some bonds are better than others, depending on who is holding
them and the exact details of the bond. Also sometimes the captors take the
bonds and just throw the captured mercs on the first Free Trader that comes
along (Low Passage, naturally). This could lead to some 'interesting'
adventures trying to raise the cash to get off were ever you end up (see
the Dumarest stories for details).

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:47:02 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection - Update

Greetings,

Did you receive my pre-order?  I sent it out late last week...

- - Bill


At 05:10 PM 11/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Just wanted to post a short update.
>
>I am up to 32 orders at present - my thanks to all who have ordered in the
>last three weeks. 
>
>Tomorrow I am sending FedEx'ing the covers to be autographed to Bill and
>Andrew Keith. I'm only sending them 50 covers of each supplement, so if you
>want your set autographed, please get your orders in pronto. Once those 50
>sets are sold then that's it as far as autographed sets go.
>
>And, a last reminder - 2 weeks left to place your pre-order... in other
>words, Dec. 15 is fast approaching!
>
>Delivery - might be delayed until Jan. 15th or so - not sure yet. Thought I
>was going to get to devote the entire Christmas holiday season towards
>wrapping up the project, but it is now looking like I might have my arm
>twisted and need to travel out of state to be with family... Beyond that,
>the project is progressing well (I've still tons of work to do on it, but
>am starting to see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel).
>
>Cordially,
>Paul Sanders
> 
Bill Rutherford

worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:52:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Where to get CT

- ---"Kirk L. Kroeker" <kkroeker@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kirk
> 

http://surf.to/traveller-trader
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:06:30 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

>Oh, and to my IRC gaming group(you know who you are), Vargr love
> good Rock and Roll! Or is that "Bark and Howl"?


IMTU, it's passe...  the latest thing is Punk Gvegh.  Can you see a Vargr,
clipped like a poodle, dyed pink and sporting a half-dozen safety pins?  --S

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1216
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1217



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
Re: Coup de Grace
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Re: Good War - Bad War (was re: Coup de Grace)
Re: Gene is in orbit...
Re: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct?
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Re: Gene is in orbit...
Re: G:T misjump chances
Gazelle variant (HG)
Re: Trading Traveller Information
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: Repatriation Bonds (was Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:26:53 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

Kurt Feltenberger said:

>From what I read about the eBook, it is currently for published works only.
> Sometime later in the next release it will be able to store other types of
>media.


Apparently,  putting information on is handled by your computer. Their own
website says that a _software_ upgrade will allow users to put HTML
documents and various other file formats (not specified) onto the unit.

>I would choose something like a Newton or P1 for the simple reason I can
>use it as something other than a glorified viewscreen, I can actually do
>things with it and automate the flow of the game.  I guess it is just that
>I prefer an active device where I can create information to something that
>just displays previously developed information.


Differing game master styles. I prefer to plan out adventures in advance,
with little or no random deviation (too much stuff to process in my tiny
mind). As a result, anything I would need a nearly $1000 dollar machine for
I could do at home.

A "glorified viewscreen" would be much more handy to me if I could at the
very least cross-reference flavor text with world data and random encounter
tables... As it stands, I have a huge binder with hundreds of pages, and a
ton of books.

>I think it would be interesting if some sort of wireless network could be
>developed so that something like a P1 could have the eBook as display
>terminals...


Oh, what wonders the future might hold :-)


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:30:30 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace

At 01:30 AM 11/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>...
>>IMTU, Naval Intellegence is a shadowy and very deadly organization.  They
>>will kill to protect the Emperor's secrets.
>
>  The danger is that they might also wish to kill to protect their own
>secrets - which may not coincide with the Imperiums...

Ah.  You've been reading my campaign notes...
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:37:15 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

At 03:22 PM 11/30/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Everything you wanted to know (and not know) about the Vargr.  Looks like
>Loren is keeping the steriotype of Vargr hanging heads out of windows and
>other dog-like traits.  I seen a picture of 3 Vargr in a bar LAPPING their
>drinks from a bowl! :-)

Given the shape of their muzzles and tongues, that seems to be a natural..
The only other method I could see easily working would be a "baby bottle"
type arrangement that has a nipple that can be grasped by the teeth.

Since the Vargr lack humaniti's highly mobile lips, they have an entirely
different dynamic when it comes to eating.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:42:33 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Good War - Bad War (was re: Coup de Grace)

At 12:51 AM 11/28/98 -0500, Walt Smith wrote:

>Aren't Repatriation Bonds often issued to "Bearer"? I'm imagining 
>some world situations where such a bond could be the most valuable
>thing carried - like a passport onto the plane in _Casablanca_.

Ooohhh....

Now there's a scernario idea..  excuse me, I need to start writing now..

- --

+--------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry   dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "Fixed fortifications are monuments  |
| to the  stupidity of man."           |
|               -Gen. George S. Patton |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:40:55 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Gene is in orbit...

At 08:44 PM 11/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Methinks Gene is spinning at Warp 9 in his grave...
>
>Little bit of Trivia...
>
>Gene was buried in space, ashes scattered from one of the shuttles, so if
>he's spinning, it's in orbit.

To be honest, Gene reenterened long ago.  The private company that launched
Gene (along with several dozen other folks) doesn't have the tech to launch
you at escape velocity, so your remains get a few orbits then a second,
very thorough cremation.

One of the jokes among California fans last year that the horrible El Nino
storms were caused by Robert Heinlein (cremated and scattered at sea)
"spinning in his grave" over the Starship Troopers movie.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:50:52 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct?

At 05:24 AM 11/29/98 GMT, you wrote:

>I've recently been reading Dickson's "Dorsai" series, and in a
>couple of places, reference is made to the Mercenary's Code,
>a.k.a. the Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct.  One can get
>an idea of some of what the MC/PSCC says from the references to
>it; for example, one article prohibits the killing of POWs or
>innocent civilians, another allows summary execution of soldiers
>who fail to obey orders, and so on.  It also appears to grant
>certain rights, such as for the line troops to vote on and demand
>that the officers lead them in a certain action.

In the US Army, the very first class you take at the Infantry school is on
the standards expected of an American Soldier.

We don't shoot prisoners, and make every effort to keep them safe, don't
attack civilians, and refuse to obey illegal orders.

"Vote on orders"?  Fergettit.  The point of an order is that you obey it,
unless it is clearly illegal.  You are ordered to take the point charging
the enemy strongpoint?  Too bad and I got dibs on your boots.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Nothing concentrates the military mind  |
|  so much as the discovery that you have  |
|  walked into an ambush."                 |
|                      -Thomas Packenham   |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:56:51 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

>---Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net> wrote:
>Just out of curiousity, what passage of scripture
>(Koran/Talmud/Bible)contradicts current scientific facts with
>reference to space travel?


>Not trolling, here.  Certainly there is much in the history of the
OTU
>that would do so, but no scientific fact invalidates the Abrahamic
>covenant or those built on it.  As a matter of fact, I think that a
>very interesting universe could be built using prophesy.


Actually _many_ scientific facts contradict this stuff, such as the
actual age of the universe, the actual age of the planet, just about
all facts about genetics, etc, etc.
But that's only if you're stupid enought to take such books
literally.
Unfortunately it's the nature of those who are religious to tend
toward stupidity

>Man is a religious being, can't help it.

Crap. _Some_ people are religious. Hopefully less and less as we
mature.

>Always looking for something to serve: a king, a flag, a god,
pleasure, drugs, money, >science, knowledge, nature.  You name it,
man will find a way to idolize it.

Speak for yourself. I "serve" no-one and idolize nothing.

<snip>
> There is no period of human history, no
>matter how "enlightened" the culture, that is free of idol worship.

That's largely because we're such a young species and have only
recently started generating people able to function without the
crutch of religion.

Doesn't mean there won't be religions, but we can hope.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:04:02 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

At 12:06 AM 12/1/98 EST, you wrote:

>IMTU, it's passe...  the latest thing is Punk Gvegh.  Can you see a Vargr,
>clipped like a poodle, dyed pink and sporting a half-dozen safety pins?  --S

Only if a I drink a lot more than is really good for me...
- --

+--------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net  |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
+--------------------------------------+
| "Oh, My God.. they killed STREPHON!  | 
|  You Bastards!!!!                    |
|                -Grand Admiral Kyle   |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 01:13:40 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gene is in orbit...

In a message dated 11/30/98 21:45:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< >> Methinks Gene is spinning at Warp 9 in his grave...
 > >>

	I would say this true...he's doing it over the atrocities that Rick Berman is
commiting to what little Star Trek canon does exist (I mean, come on:  10
years after a nuclear war, someone builds a warp-vessel out of an old missile
body?  Powered by what?  Solid rocket fuel?  And since when did Zefrem
Cochrane become a human alcoholic?  He was an Alpha Centuarian in the original
Trek and in numerous books).

	DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:54:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: G:T misjump chances

Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:08:03, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>

>G:T misjump chances are simply too high.

Note that in GT, not all misjumps are disasterous.  They can
result in things like no jump or a fail jump (it takes a week
but you end up back where you started).

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 00:04:29 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Gazelle variant (HG)

  The following is presented for several reasons, not the least being
that the current Gazelle stats are dubious at best (too many hardpoints,
questionable performance). The combat ineffectiveness is mission based,
but the TL E basis is clearly obsolete and unlikely to be produced in
future.

  However, the 5FW lasted long enough that needed escorts could be 
manufactured in the Marches (at the Big Four) and on their way to the
active zone within a year. Thus, what follows is a suicide sled closely
based on the Type CE, with the exceptions being TL F and rules compliance.

                LE-4455562-300000-40200-0       MCr 293.03      400 tons
        batteries                 2 2                             TL=15.
        batteries bearing         2 2                           Crew=11.
        Fuel=221. EP=21. Agility=0.

  Includes purifier and scoops. One full and ten half staterooms. No drop
tanks on this model (thus, four hardpoints are legal) so it can fight and
run with full tanks and without the logistics hassles. Price is before
discounts (TL F power plants abeing much cheaper than TL E), but 45 week
construction normally requires that the series have been started.

  The only obvious variant to this is the standard CE of grouping the lasers
into a single factor 5 battery, and using the space from the missing gunner
for either cargo or increased living space. It also appears that one deck
officer could be dropped if necessary for low-risk missions.


                IE-44555E2-340000-50003-0       MCr 303.03      400 tons
        batteries           1     1   1                           TL=15.
        batteries bearing   1     1   1                         Crew=10.
        Cargo=1. Fuel=221. EP=21. Agility=3.

  For more aggressive missions we finally have a (light) combat version;
fibre-optic back-up computer, a sandcaster to limit risks from enemy
freighters or escorts, a rack for nuclear missiles, a bigger main battery,
and actual combat maneuver capability. Command crew is not reduced; the
vacant gunners quarters are retained - otherwise as Type LE, above.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:44:57 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trading Traveller Information

Eric Holmes <holmberg@thuntek.net> asks:

>Fellow TMLers:
>
>Have need of canon subsector maps and data for Beyond, Vangard, Far Frontier
>and Foreven Sectors.  Are there sources on-line?  I have one subsector, an
>old photocopy of the Jungleblut subsector.  Are there any others available?
>
>Am willing to trade photo copies of Imperial Atlas (DGP?) and Paranoia Press
>Beyond and Vangard Rreaches.  (The last items for those CTers that just
>haven't have a copy of the information for their collections)
>
>Eric

 Of the four sectors you are looking for only one (Foreven) has a canon dotmap,
and none have canon world listings.
 What does exist is a more recent version of Vanguard Reaches redone by its
original author (Chuck Kallenbach III), a mishmash writeup of Far Frontiers
done across a decade by three different people (I'm one of them), an official
dotmap and permission to make free otherwise for Foreven, and a dotmap and
political boundaries of questionable pedigree for Beyond.
 I have dotmaps for three of the four (not Vanguard) on my website, along with
spotty data for Foreven. At least two other people on the Web have data on Foreven
of their own devising. My work on Far Frontiers is not on the Web, but check EBay
for bundles of back issues of "The Traveller Chronicle" magazine being sold by their
publisher Kevin Knight. If you know someone with a good collection of old Ares mags
you can find the rimward half of Far Frontiers (the half I didn't do) in one issue
(I don't know which offhand...). Someone on this list recently mentioned that they
were working on fleshing out the Beyond for their campaign. Having access to DGPs
writeup of the Trojan Reach (from Megatraveller Journal) would likely help that
effort due to the spillover of political boundaries between the sectors.

That help?

GypsyComet
http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html  (follow the Zhodani link to the
dotmaps)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 19:49:27
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1212
>
>Even better.   I get info that is six weeks old and you get info
>that is only four weeks old, but you also have to pay and twice
>the commission that I pay.  I would take that one.
>

Cool. Commissions on stock exchange transactions are about 0.3% in
Australia, so you pay KCr 3 per megacredit, and I pay KCR 6.

>>Now, come the first takeover bid, minerals strike, war, change of line at
>>court, change of personell at court, I am going to take you to the cleaners.
>
>Not when those who are already on planet have already scooped up
>the sitations.  The fact is that the invetible delay means that
>some of the approaches we are used to in modern society won't
>work.  Now I'm not saying there won't be some situations where
>timely info won't be useful, but is there enough volume to
>support an X=boat level jump-6 service?  That is debatable.

Volume ? Maybe.

But who gives a damn if the only thing the courier tells you is 'Bre-X was
revealed as a scam. Sell'.

>
>>Funnily enough, yes there were such systems, and people quite happily paid
>>through the nose to use them. Especially people like Jakob Fugger and
>>Philip II, and their people.
>
>There were dedicated messengers.  There were not such systems for
>routine communications.  If you had to pay off to a bank in florence
>you didn't use the equivalent of a jump-6 courier.  You used the
>equivalent of regular mail.
>

Lets see. Braudel, Meditteranean in the time of Philip II.

Page 356 'I am waiting for the regular Flanders mail to go past at any
hour' (Chantonnay to Phillip II, 21 December 1561)

page 357 'During the 1550s the King of Portugal's ambassadors at Rome often
sent their letters by way of Antwerp. This was because the length of the
journey depended less on the distance travelled than on the quality and
frequency of the mails'

Page 359. 'The fastest speeds in Europe <in the 1520s> were probably
reached by the couriers working for the postal services organised by
Gabriel de Tassis on the Italy-Brussels route, via the Tyrol; this was a
route carefully planned, halts were kept to a minimum'

page 365 : 'At the beginning of the sixteenth century the tariff between
Venice and Nuremburg varied according to the time taken : four days, 58
florins ; four days and six hours, 50 ; five days, 48 ; six days, 25'
(cross reference to p458 ... a civil law professor at the University of
Padua earned 600 florins a year in 1506)

Venice. Nuremburg. Brussels. Flanders.

Sounds like pretty decent coverage of the commercial centers of Europe by
regular (albeit expensive) postal services to me ... 

But I think the last word in this debate belongs to the Prudent King  ...
'It is more important that the letters should travel by a safe route than
that four or five days be gained, except on occasions where speed is
essential.' (margin note by Phillip II on letter from B. de Mendoza, 28
November 1587).

>>>> It does look odd when Hortalez et Cie
>>>>is happy with their internal commo trickling along at 2.6 parsecs/week,
>>>>doesn't it?
>
>>>For their routine traffic, not at all.
>
>>Information is dense. Exteremly dense. You can put everything your customer
>>in Dabei needs to know about commerce on Earth this week on a CD Rom.
>
>So?
>

Let us assume that our PCs in the Express Courier charge Cr 100 000 per
cubic meter to ship stuff at jump-6, and we can put 1000 such disks in a
cubic meter.

If the report is worth Cr 1000 (easy to do with a private news summary for
an important person), then we need to fit 100 into a cubic meter to pay the
tariff of a megacredit a dton.

>>How many jump-6 200 dton Fleet Couriers can we buy for the cost of one 20
>>000kt battlewagon ?
>
>I don't know.  It really doesn't matter.  Large organizations don't
>waste money on things because something else cost a lot more.  The
>US government doesn't waste money on cars it can't justify a need
>for because a tank costs so much.
>

'Need' is relative. The question the Vice-Admirals in charge of Procurement
Policy Planning will be asking is 'Will a Fleet of 7 main units, supporting
units and 6 Fleet Couriers be more effective than a Fleet of 6 main units,
supporting units and 6 + n Fleet Couriers', where n is the relative cost of
a main unit and a Fleet Courier. It's a lot less painful if your Fleet
Couriers replace frigates, for example.

Remember, a major reason the Consolidation Wars and the Nth Interstellar
War went the way they did was the relative ability of each fleet to stay in
touch with HQ and each other.

>>No. It's pretty trivial. At least for the Imperium or a Megacorporation.
>>
>>Under any design system, you can build a jump-6 200 dton Express Courier
>>for within an order of magnitude of the cost of a jump-2 200 dton Far
Trader.
>
>And how does this show the cost of the entire network would be "trivial"?

Lets toss some reasonable numbers around. The first number is the size of
Mora's economy. 10 billion citizens at TL15, so we should have a GDP of
around lets call it 150 trillion credits.

Now, Ling Standard Products set up Mora as a commercial enterprise, so I'll
assume they run 2% of Mora's economy, so LSP (Spinward Marches) Ltd turns
over at least 3 trillion credits a year.

Now, Mora is probably the biggest single LSP profit center, but there are a
couple of other decent worlds in the Marches, so I'll assume the rest of
LSP (Spinward Marches) adds up to a trillion credits. We're up to a 4
trillion credit a year budget for LSP.

Now, Famile Spofulam has got at LSP's board and has convinced them for a
need of a series of Fast, jump-6 couriers connecting Mora, Trin, Glisten,
Rhylanor and Efate. The courier is the TL15 version of the Moonshine class
drug drug runner runner ^k^k^k^k^k^k^k^k^k^k Fast Extraction Vessel,
dropped to 5 gees using T-plates and taken up to jump-6 (FFS2 worksheet
available on application).

LSP(Spinward Marches) has therefore decides to commit 0.5% of annual
revenues to their Internal Communications Improvement project.

The ICI project thus has a projected budget of 20 billion credits. Per
annum. Plus anything they can earn by selling space on the side (one day
delay unless on the Emperor's Business, of course).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:20:22 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

From:           	"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Date sent:      	Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:56:51 +1300

[snip of rather inflamatory post]

>Doesn't mean there won't be religions, but we can hope.

Frank, please refrains. Some people here just might take their religious beliefs 
rather seriously and we **REALLY** don't need any more flamewars.

I will not respond any further and I would exhort everybody to show restraint.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:23:20 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:
>>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1212

>>>Funnily enough, yes there were such systems, and people quite happily paid
>>>through the nose to use them. Especially people like Jakob Fugger and
>>>Philip II, and their people.
>>
>>There were dedicated messengers.  There were not such systems for
>>routine communications.  If you had to pay off to a bank in florence
>>you didn't use the equivalent of a jump-6 courier.  You used the
>>equivalent of regular mail.
>>
>
[Piece on mail in Europe in the 1500's snipped)
>
>Venice. Nuremburg. Brussels. Flanders.
>
>Sounds like pretty decent coverage of the commercial centers of Europe by
>regular (albeit expensive) postal services to me ... 
>

I think that you should be very careful about using Europe for
an example in thsi case. Distances in Europe is short. I guess
that a decicated rider could traverse most of central Europe
(Italy, Austria, Germany, France, Spain) in not much more than
a week. The distances in Traveller is more like the distances
you have in Europe-America in the 1700's or maybe Europe- Asia
a couple of centuries earlier. Here you see no regular mail 
services (I could be wrong :-), because the effort to make
one is to great. There was also the feeling that things that 
happened that far away did not concern them.

>Let us assume that our PCs in the Express Courier charge Cr 100 000 per
>cubic meter to ship stuff at jump-6, and we can put 1000 such disks in a
>cubic meter.
>
>If the report is worth Cr 1000 (easy to do with a private news summary for
>an important person), then we need to fit 100 into a cubic meter to pay the
>tariff of a megacredit a dton.

Yes but then you buy a ship to travel between to systems. If you have interests 
in 200 systems, then you need 200 ships to pull this example of. Now even 
with a jump-6 system you can only compete with the systems that are close
by you, so all systems between you and the system where the news originated
and is outside your subsector has the information before you and can act
accordingly. This indicate to me that it must be better to dispate a 
trusted aid to the system instead than run things from the HQ. 

I really think that buisness in the Imperium will be very different from
how it is on Earth today, I from what I've read so far here, nobody (including
me :-) has taken the time to sit down and go through every aspect of trade
and business in the Imperium, given the canon setting. I mean, how do
one do business when info takes a month to get to you. Or two months. Why do
people risk their money on such endevors, when it is safer to do buisness
on you home world? Is interstellar trade, (except for the free trader model)
even possible?

>'Need' is relative. The question the Vice-Admirals in charge of Procurement
>Policy Planning will be asking is 'Will a Fleet of 7 main units, supporting
>units and 6 Fleet Couriers be more effective than a Fleet of 6 main units,
>supporting units and 6 + n Fleet Couriers', where n is the relative cost of
>a main unit and a Fleet Courier. It's a lot less painful if your Fleet
>Couriers replace frigates, for example.

Is the debate on military couriors or a freely avaible J6 mail network?
Has anybody really done any extencive work on have fleet warfare in the
Imperium will work? How do you defend your borders, when the enemy has the
ability to jump 5 hexes behind your border hex?

Say you have a Zho battleship standing on the hex outside the Imperial
Border. This is not known to the Imperials. It is a J6, maximum suicide
battleship, designed to do as much havoc as possible before it is killed.
It jumps 6 hexes into the Imperium. How big a chance is it that this
system has a standing force? Say it enters the system close to a gas giant
and skims fuel. The defender of the system is unable to destroy the attacker
and prepares to dispatch couriers. Where does it send these? If the Zho now
jumps another 5-6 hexes into the imperium, he might actually get there 
before any couriers. He can then refuel and jump again. How do you track him 
done? How do you prevent this from happening in the first place? 


>Lets toss some reasonable numbers around. The first number is the size of
>Mora's economy. 10 billion citizens at TL15, so we should have a GDP of
>around lets call it 150 trillion credits.

Which is a GDP of 15.000 credits per head. I think this is increadibly high.
Where does this number come from? (I guess this is a canon number)

>Now, Ling Standard Products set up Mora as a commercial enterprise, so I'll
>assume they run 2% of Mora's economy, so LSP (Spinward Marches) Ltd turns
>over at least 3 trillion credits a year.

>Now, Mora is probably the biggest single LSP profit center, but there are a
>couple of other decent worlds in the Marches, so I'll assume the rest of
>LSP (Spinward Marches) adds up to a trillion credits. We're up to a 4
>trillion credit a year budget for LSP.

Budget is the operative word here. We have no way of determining how much
profit LSP(SM) is doing. 


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:56:18 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Repatriation Bonds (was Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit)

At 14:30 30/11/1998 -0600, "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com> wrote:
>> From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
>> Subject: Re: So You're Running A Mercenary Outfit
>> 
>> > About repatriation bonds:
>> 
>> 	I've had alot of trouble with repatriation bonds.  Just never
>> really got the idea of what their really *for*.  I understand the
>> premise behind them;  a 'get off of the hostile world free' card.  I
>> just don't understand the specifics.  What does one do to use a
>> repatriation bond?  What are the limits to one?  The small little
>> examples you posted helped alot, thanks.  ::smiles::
>> 
>
>It might be clearer if you look at it from the shipmaster's point of view: 
>these grungy characters with lots of military hardware show up at your
>loading ramp, claiming to be defeated mercenaries and looking for passage
>off-planet.  In payment for low passage, they offer you these "repatriation
>bonds". You examine the bonds, and see that they were issued by Hortalez et
>Cie (in some suitably hard-to-forge format).  
>
<snip>

Agreed, I consider it like a mid passage (or low passage - depends on
how well you bargain) but it also covers group's cargo needs.

Plus it tends to have a future date.

Plus ships other than standard merchants might accept it, eg an orbiting
Broadsword Merc Cruiser (if there is space) or even an Imperial battlewaggon.

Of course you have to have a very good rep before the admiral of a Tigress 
Batron offers you a lift...or a very bad one; it all depends on where the
admiral wants to take you :-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1217
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1218



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection - Update
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Re: Gene is in orbit...
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Fast courier services
RE: First Contact/Vilani Expertise Requested
Fleet Intruders (was re: Fast Courier Services)
Re: Space Religeon (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:07:16
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services
>
>>Sounds like pretty decent coverage of the commercial centers of Europe by
>>regular (albeit expensive) postal services to me ... 
>>
>
>I think that you should be very careful about using Europe for
>an example in thsi case. Distances in Europe is short. I guess
>that a decicated rider could traverse most of central Europe
>(Italy, Austria, Germany, France, Spain) in not much more than
>a week. The distances in Traveller is more like the distances
>you have in Europe-America in the 1700's or maybe Europe- Asia
>a couple of centuries earlier. Here you see no regular mail 
>services (I could be wrong :-), because the effort to make
>one is to great. There was also the feeling that things that 
>happened that far away did not concern them.

A week is appallingly optimistic, even on fast horses. The best time for a
letter to get from Lisbon to Venice was 42 days, while the best time for
Venice to Vienna was 6 days.

I would argue that the Spinward Marches are potentially as 'large' as
Europe was in the 17th century.

What is being proposed is that a massive incentive exists to compress these
distances through use of the best available technology.

>I really think that buisness in the Imperium will be very different from
>how it is on Earth today, I from what I've read so far here, nobody
(including
>me :-) has taken the time to sit down and go through every aspect of trade
>and business in the Imperium, given the canon setting. I mean, how do
>one do business when info takes a month to get to you. Or two months. Why do
>people risk their money on such endevors, when it is safer to do buisness
>on you home world? Is interstellar trade, (except for the free trader model)
>even possible?

A good start is to look at how business took place before the telegraph.

You know what ? It's pretty similar.

Bond issues. Stock exchanges. Financial crises. Trusted lieutenants going
rogue. It's all there.

I have gone through a lot of the issues, and interstellar trade is not
merely possible, but it's at least an order of magnitude bigger than most
people think. You can move almost anything at Cr 750 per parsec. Especially
when you have commodities (such as starship sensor arrays) worth
megacredits a dton.

>Say you have a Zho battleship standing on the hex outside the Imperial
>Border. This is not known to the Imperials. It is a J6, maximum suicide
>battleship, designed to do as much havoc as possible before it is killed.
>It jumps 6 hexes into the Imperium. How big a chance is it that this
>system has a standing force? Say it enters the system close to a gas giant
>and skims fuel. The defender of the system is unable to destroy the attacker
>and prepares to dispatch couriers. Where does it send these? If the Zho now
>jumps another 5-6 hexes into the imperium, he might actually get there 
>before any couriers. He can then refuel and jump again. How do you track him 
>done? How do you prevent this from happening in the first place? 
>

You defend the important worlds, and to hell with anything with less than
pop 7.

>
>>Lets toss some reasonable numbers around. The first number is the size of
>>Mora's economy. 10 billion citizens at TL15, so we should have a GDP of
>>around lets call it 150 trillion credits.
>
>Which is a GDP of 15.000 credits per head. I think this is increadibly high.
>Where does this number come from? (I guess this is a canon number)

Striker, and it's too low for a TL 15 Industrial world.

>
>>Now, Ling Standard Products set up Mora as a commercial enterprise, so I'll
>>assume they run 2% of Mora's economy, so LSP (Spinward Marches) Ltd turns
>>over at least 3 trillion credits a year.
>
>>Now, Mora is probably the biggest single LSP profit center, but there are a
>>couple of other decent worlds in the Marches, so I'll assume the rest of
>>LSP (Spinward Marches) adds up to a trillion credits. We're up to a 4
>>trillion credit a year budget for LSP.
>
>Budget is the operative word here. We have no way of determining how much
>profit LSP(SM) is doing. 

Doesnt really matter. This is a 'reduce internal overheads' issue.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:05:48 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

At 11:23 01/12/1998 +0100, Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> wrote:

<snip>

>I think that you should be very careful about using Europe for
>an example in thsi case. Distances in Europe is short. I guess
>that a decicated rider could traverse most of central Europe
>(Italy, Austria, Germany, France, Spain) in not much more than
>a week. The distances in Traveller is more like the distances
>you have in Europe-America in the 1700's or maybe Europe- Asia
>a couple of centuries earlier. Here you see no regular mail 
>services (I could be wrong :-), because the effort to make
>one is to great. There was also the feeling that things that 
>happened that far away did not concern them.

Europe-America in the 1700's. Hmmm...

The problem is that the costs of transport are probably about the same
relative to income as in Trav (if not more).

Unfortunately the Colonies at this point in time don't have 10 billion people.

Come to that, neither did Europe.

Take the ships that you do have sailing back and forth
and multiply by 100 or 1000 for the population difference.

Granted you wouldn't need that many, its just how many you should be able
to afford.

One of the Chinese empires would seem a better match.

Or perhaps the British Empire (transport costs by ship are quite high).

Or the Mongol Empire (but transport costs by horse are quite low).

The Mongol should be the best match - the low infrastructure costs should
balance the much lower information density (a few scrolls or a book) that
could be carried.

>On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:
>>Let us assume that our PCs in the Express Courier charge Cr 100 000 per
>>cubic meter to ship stuff at jump-6, and we can put 1000 such disks in a
>>cubic meter.
>>
>>If the report is worth Cr 1000 (easy to do with a private news summary for
>>an important person), then we need to fit 100 into a cubic meter to pay the
>>tariff of a megacredit a dton.

At 11:23 01/12/1998 +0100, Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> wrote:

>Yes but then you buy a ship to travel between to systems. If you have
interests 
>in 200 systems, then you need 200 ships to pull this example of. Now even 
>with a jump-6 system you can only compete with the systems that are close
>by you, so all systems between you and the system where the news originated
>and is outside your subsector has the information before you and can act
>accordingly. This indicate to me that it must be better to dispate a 
>trusted aid to the system instead than run things from the HQ. 

True, but if you want me to invest in your company, you're going to have
to prove that your trusted aide is actually making some money.

If a private J-6 courier arrives to tell me that your aide has skipped
with the money, then I can sell your shares whilst they are still high.

If I as Joe Public don't have the resources to get the reports, then
I'm either taking a big risk or putting my money with an investment
company that does.

The point is that the investment is local, but the value depends on
distant factors.

If enough Megacorp, sector corp and subsector corp operations exist,
then soon enough the sum total of their private networks will exceed the
cost of a high speed courier network.

The sort of rationalisation that is going on now will mean that corps
start to subcontract these services from a dedicates telecoms company
that can do stuff cheaper and faster (because they carry more stuff
and have regular services).

The Megacorps will still have their own networks which can save hours
or days at most (for example, put 10 couriers on each step of the route
and on average you win on the random jump duration or those just off the J6
main) but only the the really important routes (eg Core to Rhylandor).

<snip>

At 11:23 01/12/1998 +0100, Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> wrote:

>Say you have a Zho battleship standing on the hex outside the Imperial
>Border. This is not known to the Imperials. It is a J6, maximum suicide
>battleship, designed to do as much havoc as possible before it is killed.
>It jumps 6 hexes into the Imperium. How big a chance is it that this
>system has a standing force? Say it enters the system close to a gas giant
>and skims fuel. The defender of the system is unable to destroy the attacker
>and prepares to dispatch couriers. Where does it send these? If the Zho now
>jumps another 5-6 hexes into the imperium, he might actually get there 
>before any couriers. He can then refuel and jump again. How do you track him 
>done? How do you prevent this from happening in the first place? 

Well you certainly don't track him using J2.6. You would have to send
requests for help at J6 direct to Depot/Corridor, since the fleet that
you assemble will only be J3/J4.

You could put Tigress batrons at every possible refeulling point within
12 parsecs of the border.

You could equip most worlds with enough 20kt SDBs to stop the Zho before
it can refuel (and incidently vapourise all pirates on sight. :-)

IIRC in FFW, your best hope is that the Zho runs into one of your reserve
units. You just keep them moving to the front using different routes and
since the Zho is running well ahead of any possible intelligence, 
sooner or later they meet and the Zho finds out just what compromises
were required to make a J6 battleship at TL14.

The points lost are normally balanced by what your CruRons are doing
in Zho territory.

In actual Trav, a J6 X-boat network will easily outrun the Zho
because it doesn't have to waste time refuelling before the next jump.

Of course, if (like the canon J4 X-boat) it has no manoeuvre drive,
then you might not get to use it a second time :-(

<snip>

Phil Kitching

- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 06:34:21 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection - Update

At 11:47 PM 11/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>Did you receive my pre-order?  I sent it out late last week...

Yep - got it, so you're all set. :)

L8r,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:00:22 -0500
From: "Catherine Tannenbaum" <cat@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

Can anyone please update me on all the pertinent info of this release... IE
the company. Anyone who has the book, as well as the earlier books on each
alien race, please tell me what kind of info is in it? Any idea on how much
they are asking for it?
I was not following the thread, been busy with the kids and deleting a lot,
sorry.
Cathy
- -----Original Message-----
From: StevenA201@aol.com <StevenA201@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!


>>Oh, and to my IRC gaming group(you know who you are), Vargr love
>> good Rock and Roll! Or is that "Bark and Howl"?
>
>
>IMTU, it's passe...  the latest thing is Punk Gvegh.  Can you see a Vargr,
>clipped like a poodle, dyed pink and sporting a half-dozen safety
ins?  --S
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:11:54 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Gene is in orbit...

At 01:13 AM 12/1/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 11/30/98 21:45:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>dberry@hooked.net writes:
>
><< >> Methinks Gene is spinning at Warp 9 in his grave...
> > >>
>
>	I would say this true...he's doing it over the atrocities that Rick
Berman is
>commiting to what little Star Trek canon does exist (I mean, come on:  10
>years after a nuclear war, someone builds a warp-vessel out of an old missile
>body?  Powered by what?  Solid rocket fuel?  And since when did Zefrem
>Cochrane become a human alcoholic?  He was an Alpha Centuarian in the
original
>Trek and in numerous books).
>
>	DustyLV769

I thing they had to change that due to a potentially conflicting scientific
problem, Alpha Centari is a hot, trinary star system with little
possibility of hapitable systems, let alone an indegionous human population.

As far as First Contact, I believe they did have functional Fusion power
sorces in that era, although the booster would have been solid rocket
(looked like a Titan II).

My question is, how did they land???

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:13:18 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

At 11:20 PM 12/1/98 +1300, you wrote:
>From:           	"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Date sent:      	Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:56:51 +1300
>
>[snip of rather inflamatory post]
>
>>Doesn't mean there won't be religions, but we can hope.
>
>Frank, please refrains. Some people here just might take their religious
beliefs 
>rather seriously and we **REALLY** don't need any more flamewars.
>
>I will not respond any further and I would exhort everybody to show
restraint.
>
I have no plans to flame him (note I replied to his post rather calmly).

I refer to my Christianity as a lifestyle, not a religeon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:07:35 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

>> There is no period of human history, no
>>matter how "enlightened" the culture, that is free of idol worship.
>
>That's largely because we're such a young species and have only
>recently started generating people able to function without the
>crutch of religion.
>
>Doesn't mean there won't be religions, but we can hope.
>
Ok, here's a bonus question... define young in your above context.

From what I understand, young is a relative term, so who are you comparing
us to in refering to the human species as young? If your comparing us to
our more primitive ancestors, many people would prefer to refer to our
species as "more evolved" (is this evolutionary political correctness?).

Secondly, if there are people capable of functioning without the crutch of
religeon, what is replacing the crutch? Are they capable of functioning
with the absense of any such "support"?

Even if everything defining the universe in everytext of every religeon
that believes in higher beings is disproved, most likely the existance of
the higher beings cannot be disproved. Therefore, even if the
Bible/Torah/Koran are wrong about creation and the other (mostly
observational references) discriptions of the universe, that does not
disprove Gods hand in   creating all this. The biggest question is, how
much impact will this have on the followers of religeons when people start
infering that since their creation stories are wrong, their deitys do not
exist?

(For those who would slam this for being off topic, this is very on topic.
Most TL9- societies would have some creation myth that will be challenged
by some scientific truith. Notice most of my references are general in
nature, with some sitings of earth religeon as a baseline.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:25:22 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Fast courier services

Tommy Grav writes:

>I think that you should be very careful about using Europe for an example
>in thsi case. Distances in Europe is short. I guess that a decicated rider
>could traverse most of central Europe (Italy, Austria, Germany, France,
>Spain) in not much more than a week. The distances in Traveller is more
>like the distances you have in Europe-America in the 1700's or maybe
>Europe- Asia a couple of centuries earlier. Here you see no regular mail 
>services (I could be wrong :-), because the effort to make one is to great.

You are wrong. Regular mail services by ship were common long before the
Napoleonic Wars (I can't say how much before because I don't know the
exact details) and fortunes were made by people who got advance notice of
commercial developments.

>There was also the feeling that things that happened that far away did not
>concern them.

European merchants took a keen interest in events in India and China.

>I mean, how do one do business when info takes a month to get to you? Or two
>months?

A good start would be to have a look at how things were done in previous
centuries.

>Why do people risk their money on such endevors, when it is safer to do
>buisness on you home world?

Because the potential profits outweigh the risks.

>Is the debate on military couriers or a freely avaible J6 mail network?

As often happens, the debate has shot off in various unforseen directions
and the various sub-threads have become confused.

My original point (which was itself an aside to a different issue) was not
that I considered the X-boat network impausible in itself. I admit that my
belief is a bit strained, but not past breaking point. Basically I explain
it away by saying that it was concieved as a jump-4 network because that 
was the state of the art at the time and it remains a jump-4 network
because there is a powerful lobby of X-boat manufacturers with a vested
interest in keeping it the way it is. What I don't believe is that all
message traffic (except for the Emperor's own secret network) goes by the
same X-boat network (which is what we are told is the case). For one thing
I'm convinced that the Imperial Navy will insist on keeping in close and
frequent touch with its component fleets. That creates an alternative way
to get messages back and forth between Capital and each subsector capital,
and I find it exceedingly unlikely that _given that the couriers are going
to fly anyway_ the Imperial Bureaucracy does not avail themselves of the
opportunity to 'piggyback' on the navy system.

Whether 'Navy-net' mail would be available to private and commercial traffic
too is another matter. I could believe it either way. Certainly the Royal
Mail packets of the Napoleonic era took private mail too. And OTOH I don't
believe that military networks are generally available to private concerns
nowadays. But I also believe that if it is not, then some sort of commercial
network will also grow up. Maybe (almost certainly) not as extensive as the
X-boat network, but some form of commercial network would exist. It is simply
too costly to be too much behindhand in your commercial information.

>Has anybody really done any extencive work on have fleet warfare in the
>Imperium will work? How do you defend your borders, when the enemy has the
>ability to jump 5 hexes behind your border hex?

You spend a large percentage of your military budget on defending your
industrial planets and the rest on offensive armaments. You then play
cat and mouse with the invaders until one side makes a mistake.
 
>Say you have a Zho battleship standing on the hex outside the Imperial
>Border. This is not known to the Imperials. It is a J6, maximum suicide
>battleship, designed to do as much havoc as possible before it is killed.
>It jumps 6 hexes into the Imperium. How big a chance is it that this
>system has a standing force?

That depends on the size of the population and the TL and infrastructure of
the system. If the Imperium is smart it also has a few CruRons and BatRons
doing random visits to outlying systems.

>Say it enters the system close to a gas giant and skims fuel. The defender
>of the system is unable to destroy the attacker and prepares to dispatch
>couriers. Where does it send these?

At a minimum one to the subsector fleet HQ. Ideally to all navy forces
within range, though that would require a lot of couriers.

>If the Zho now jumps another 5-6 hexes into the imperium, he might actually
>get there before any couriers.

That depends on how soon the courier was dispatched. It's a moot point,
though, because any navy that is willing to pay the high cost of setting it
up can get a ship any depth inside any neighboring empire. It's just a
matter of laying down a sufficient number of deep space fuel dumps. So
even interior systems need to be ready to defend themselves.

>He can then refuel and jump again. How do you track him done?

You need to outguess him.

>How do you prevent this from happening in the first place? 

You don't. However, don't forget that you can do the same thing to him.
 
>>Lets toss some reasonable numbers around. The first number is the size of
>>Mora's economy. 10 billion citizens at TL15, so we should have a GDP of
>>around lets call it 150 trillion credits.
> 
>Which is a GDP of 15.000 credits per head. I think this is increadibly high.
>Where does this number come from? (I guess this is a canon number)

Not incredible. I've been trying to promote the idea from _Pocket Empires_ 
that the GDP of a planet (in local credits) is per definition Cr10,000 and
that the difference between the value of credits from different worlds (the
exchange rate) depends on the difference in productivity. But if you go by
_Striker (I)_, worlds have GDPs based primarily on their TL, modified by some
of their trade classifications. IIRC a planet with a TL of 15 has a GDP of
22,000 per citizen. If it is Rich or Industrial that goes up by another 20%. 

>>Now, Mora is probably the biggest single LSP profit center, but there are a
>>couple of other decent worlds in the Marches, so I'll assume the rest of
>>LSP (Spinward Marches) adds up to a trillion credits. We're up to a 4
>>trillion credit a year budget for LSP.
> 
>Budget is the operative word here. We have no way of determining how much
>profit LSP(SM) is doing. 

Presumably around 3-5% of capital investment.
 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:46:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: RE: First Contact/Vilani Expertise Requested

Alan,

Thank you very much for your input.  I appreciate the  response.  As 
I do not have much info on the Vilani culture, I have gone to the 
most knowledgable source I know: the TML.

Here's the current version, adding in your input:

Ikugi/Barnard's Star is under the control of Sharurshid.  They've
recently established a processing plant, probably starting around 
2087AD.  In 2093AD, the Hubble or its equivalent detects unusual 
activity in the direction of Barnard's Star, after the EM 
emissions from the increased traffic there have travelled the six 
years to Earth.  President Inch is informed in private sessions, and 
she initiates the Starleaper project.  The US NSA of the time period 
sends a secret mission to Barnard's Star, with a telepath on board to 
help facilitate First Contact communications.  Sharushid 
representatives were thus contacted, and the US NSA officers had to 
deal with the Vilani fears of psionics.  Arrangements were made 
between the two for an official First Contact two years hence.  
Sharushid's reason may center around a local executive's interests in 
monopolizing the access to Terra's advanced engineering and medical 
technology.  (Or maybe some executive has a secret interest in this 
"psionic technology", and sees this as an opportunity to advance 
himself.  Who knows.)  The US NSA is, of course, interested in 
learning as much about the Vilani technology as possible, to advance 
themselves within their particular niche as an intelligence agency.

[This interpretation of Trav History is based on the fact that 
the MT ImpEnc reports Terrans travelled to Barnard's Star in 2094, 
but First Contact happens at 2096.  Other canon sources claim that 
the first trip to Barnard's Star also included First Contact, and 
most often sites the 2096 date.  I saw the abnormality, and this was 
my first thought on an explanation for it.  Fortunately, it has a lot 
of "Conspiracy Theory" flavor, which my gamers seem to love, and 
sounds like it would be fun to develop.]

>IYTU, of course.  Loren clearly expressed a different opinion in GT,
>which suggests that canon will ultimately go against you.  Tough. 
>There ain't no canon police.

I know that official canon is against me, but it sounded like an 
interesting variant worth exploring.  However, I am trying to stay 
within official canon for the "official historical account of the 
Traveller Timeline."  My campaign simply explores some potential 
motivations behind the official events surrounding First Contact, the 
First Interstellar War, and the formation of the Terran 
Confederation.

>> 4)  Shortly thereafter, Vilani and Terrans joined in several 
>> joint-exploration missions, and this is where the Terrans learned 
>> of the overwhelming size of the Vilani Imperium.  Was that common
>> practice?  How was such established?  Did a representative of the
>> provincial governor meet with Terran diplomats, or did the Terrans
>> travel to the governor's seat to make these arrangements?
>
> Dunno.  I would tend to interpret the Vilani as being a bit reticent
> about this kind of thing, but they might do it to check out the
> Terrans.  IYTU decision.

While I agree that this situation does not fit the rest of the 
Vilani's standard practices, canonical references do state that the 
Terrans did join the Vilani on joint exploration missions.  Several 
of the sources state that this is where the Terrans learn the full 
scale of the First Imperium.  So my question to myself was "Why?"  I 
again fall back to my initial Conspiracy Theory premise, and assume 
that there are forces on both sides of the Terran and Vilani that 
want to pursue a higher level of interaction with the other.  So much 
so that they go against their normal operating procedures.  For 
whatever reason, though, it happened, according to the OTU history.

> Mmmm.  IYTU, IYTU, IYTU.  "The secret societies manipulating Terrans
> and Vilani toward undisclosed goals" bit isn't usually how Traveller
> works IMHO.  That doesn't mean that secret societies don't exist, 
> and are trying to do this, but big Illuminati stuff tends not to 
> happen. Again IYTU.

Usually, the Traveller Universe keeps the role of grand conspiracies 
as part of its background.  Examples include:  The Shattered Imperium 
(the assassination of "Strephon" in MT), the AI Virus (Lucan's 
folly), the Psionic Suppressions (an experiment in psychohistory gone 
awry), the Hiver fascination with psychohistory/cultural 
manipulation, and (admittedly a little weaker, but still a lot of 
potential) the secret manipulations of Cleon in the founding of the 
Third Imperium (including the secret meetings he had with the Vilani 
in order to bring them in).  I sure others on this list could provide 
more examples.

> RW conspiracies tend to leak after a while.  Or at last the ones we
> find out about are the ones that leaked...

As the differences in various timeline references might indicate to a 
historian paranoid enough to notice it and start asking himself 
"Why?"  Basically, though, it's an excuse to turn some rifts in 
canonical references into a good game.  I hope it works.  After all, 
enjoying a good game is what it's all about, to me anyway.

Thanks, again, for your input.  Every little bit helps make my game 
more enjoyable for both me and the gamers that grace my table.  I 
still welcome any other input you or others might have regarding 
either this post or the original one.

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:02:28 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Fleet Intruders (was re: Fast Courier Services)

Tommy Grav wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Is the debate on military couriors or a freely avaible J6 mail network?
Has anybody really done any extencive work on have fleet warfare in the
Imperium will work? How do you defend your borders, when the enemy has the ability to jump 5 hexes behind your border hex?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Causing that kind of consternation to your opponent is exactly why
the venerable Azhanti High Lightnings are still in service. <g> 

Not to mention the Gionetti's and other jump-5 craft in the Imperial
service.

Tommy again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Say you have a Zho battleship standing on the hex outside the Imperial
Border. This is not known to the Imperials. It is a J6, maximum suicide
battleship, designed to do as much havoc as possible before it is killed.
It jumps 6 hexes into the Imperium. How big a chance is it that this
system has a standing force? 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The chance will depend on whether Imperial Navy Intelligence knows
the TL-14 Zhodani have obtained jump-6 technology or not (Zho's are
max TL 14, which limits them to jump-5).

The Imperium will have standing forces in every system the Zho's can
reach in one jump from known possible start positions. The farther
from the Zho border, the less impressive these forces will necessarily
have to be - it takes a smaller system monitor to whack a jump-6
battleship than it takes to whack a jump-4 battleship, the latter has
at least 22% more hull space to mount armor and weapons on.

Note that the systems jump-5, jump-6 and so on from the Zho border
will also have in-place reinforcements for the more forward systems.

If you allow easy set-up of deep space refueling platforms, it doesn't
matter whether you are jump-5 or jump-6. You can set up a chain
of refueling stops in the deeps between the stars and send your
battleship ten, fifteen, even twenty parsecs into enemy territory.
Of course, chance discovery of such a chain of refueling depots
would be immediate cause for war, whether you were ready for it
or not.

Tommy again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Say it enters the system close to a gas giant
and skims fuel. The defender of the system is unable to destroy the attacker
and prepares to dispatch couriers. Where does it send these? If the Zho now
jumps another 5-6 hexes into the imperium, he might actually get there 
before any couriers. He can then refuel and jump again. How do you track him done? How do you prevent this from happening in the first place? 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The role of high-jump vessels in disrupting the enemy rear is a worthwhile
reason to build them. They'll probably die when caught by equivalent
or even slightly inferior tonnage regular units (due to the hull space
they spent on strategically vital, but tactically useless jump capability),
but that's the opportunity cost of long legs.

I would say the known presence of such deep penetration vessels
would have a serious effect on politics. If you know your frontier is
going to be "leaky", that enemy raiders will (at least for a time) strike
throughout your interior in time of war, you may be less likely to want
a war. Since you'll be less sure you can seal your borders through force
of arms, you may be more likely to attempt border security through
diplomacy and compromise.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:23:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

 
> >Man is a religious being, can't help it.
> 
> Crap. _Some_ people are religious. Hopefully less and less as we
> mature.
 
I think he meant (I and I think he's right, BTW) that people invent
religion everywhere. Individual MMV, but cultures all around the
world invent religion. It obviously fills a human need, certainly at
some point in development. It may not make any sense to many of us
at a later age of development (it doesn't to me :-), but face it,
it's true.

> >Always looking for something to serve: a king, a flag, a god,
> pleasure, drugs, money, >science, knowledge, nature.  You name it,
> man will find a way to idolize it.
> 
> Speak for yourself. I "serve" no-one and idolize nothing.
 
Neither do a lot of people, again, that wasn't his point. Like it or
not, most people are sheep :-)

> Doesn't mean there won't be religions, but we can hope.

Heheh. I would think that the more inflexible ones extant now would
either: become flexible, or fall apart. The ones that were flexible
to begin with might well move on into the future. What (if any) new
ones get invented to keep up with "current" facts (Grabdfather,
aliens species as clever as us, etc.) might be interesting flavor
for a campaign.

Hell, keeping a bunch of yahoos that still argue that the universe
isn't very old (or even as old as known civilizations) around might
be fun to show that there are still real dopes around, and now they
have spacecraft! (scares me more than 0.9c rocks :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1218
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1219



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Repatriation Bonds
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
alpha centauri
Re: Space Religion (on topic)
Re: Jump-6 Courier network
Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...
WARNING! Bad seller!
Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: WARNING! Bad seller!
Re: WARNING! Bad seller!
Ararat class corvette (very long...sorry)
Manned Orbital Sensors
GT: Fighters for UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:18:31 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Repatriation Bonds

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Plus ships other than standard merchants might accept it, eg an orbiting
Broadsword Merc Cruiser (if there is space) or even an Imperial battlewaggon.

Of course you have to have a very good rep before the admiral of a Tigress 
Batron offers you a lift...or a very bad one; it all depends on where the
admiral wants to take you :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'd see it as a very odd situation if a private mercenary company got a
ride on _any_ Imperial Navy craft. The Imperium "tolerates" mercenaries,
remember? 

I'm imagining the hell Imperial Marines on a battlecruiser would put
the merc scum through if they did get a lift. <g>

There will, of course, be exceptions - the cruiser CO who's brother
just happens to be a mercenary Colonel, or the odd case where the
local Imperial representative finds it expedient to hire on some
"auxiliaries".

A private-owned Broadsword might be willing to take repatriation bonds,
but if it were travelling with that much free bunk space on board it's
got some mercenaries missing. Maybe the Owner will be happy to take
your group on board, and will spend the whole trip trying to recruit you?

"That was a nasty job your group did on our assault squad. Seems you
left us with some job openings. Are you looking for employment?"

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:36:14 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

David P. Summers writes:

>Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:35:33 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>>In any trading culture advance knowledge of trends and events is valuable.
>>You know, worth money. The company who routinely gets its news a day
>>earlier than its rivals is the one that will do the best in the long run.
> 
>I can be worth money, but is it worth the money to routinely get info 33%
>quicker?

That depends on what you mean by routinely. It won't give you a fixed dayly
profit, if that's what you mean. But every so often it will allow you to
make a large profit or avoid a large loss.

>Remember, we have a culture built around instant communications. A day makes
>a big difference when everyone gets info overnight, but few people will pay
>that much more to get info at 8 AM instead of 11 AM. (Sure some will, most
>won't).

Apart from the examples that Steven and Ian has provided, history shows us
one more situation where a few hours can mean a huge difference: When you
are buying and selling luxury goods. Take the annual tea races in the
previous century for example. The clipper that got into harbor (or
harbour ;-) first each year got the best prices. That was so valuable that
they built huge ships dedicated specifically to this one purpose. Not to
fetch tea from China, but to fetch tea and get home first. The other way
can also mean a huge difference. You learn that a particular planet has
a particular need or a particular surplus. The ship that gets there first,
get the profit. The second may not even break even.
  
>Similarly, were there networks of horse couriers and fast ships just to
>carry messages in the Renaissance? Sure some traders had such ships, but
>there weren't ships at every port for just such messages

Nor do any of us propose that there would be a network that connected all
Imperial planets. Just the 3-400 most important ones...

>(later the US had the pony express, but that is actually noted because it
>was unusual and it didn't try and be a system for general communications).

Well, the Danish postal service was set up during the 1600s. I can't say
how much they concentrated on speed, though.

>>The most efficient would of course be a network that used X-boats of the
>>appropiate jump capacity for whatever leg it was used on. You don't need
>>to replace the whole network to improve the performance considerably.
>>Simply adding a few core to border jump-6 runs and maybe a few crosslinks
>>too will do wonders for a very modest price.
> 
>Yes, there are a number of things you could do if you were willing skip
>intermediate stops even with jump-4.  And  doesn't involve having two
>differennt kinds of ships.

Better yet, why not do both? Have some boats that skip intermediate stops
and some that don't? Why should it be either or?

>>So you pick up the messages the X-boat from the important world dropped off
>>a few days ago. They will still get almost anywhere faster than by X-boat
>>alone.
> 
>The delay will be a week or two, that will mean that will be no
>savings until past 12-24 parsecs. 

How do you figure that? The messages go by X-boat until it reach a courier
node where it is picked up. So you don't lose any time there. After that it
goes faster than the X-boats for a while until it is dumped into another
X-boat at another courier node. No time loss there either. Then it proceeds
the rest of the way by X-boat. No time loss there either.

>After that the savings will be modest until some distance.

Even if that was true the Imperium does have the distences to make the
savings more than modest. That's sort of the point of claiming that the
Imperium is training under the communication lag.

>>>There may be J-6 couriers between the Capital and Mora.

Not according to canon, which state that all message traffic goes by X-boat.
Which is the problem I have in the first place, not with the existence of
the X-boats per se.

>>>However, the routine traffic of the Navy (assignments, standard orders,
>>>etc.) are going to go at X-boat speeds just fine.
> 
>>Why should they? Is there any reason why the Admiralty would deliberately
>>send their messages by the slower alternative? I can't for the life of me
>>think why.
> 
>Why send their routine messages by a slow alternative?  Because it's
>cheaper...

Not if they send priority messages by jump-6 courier. As Ian pointed out,
information is VERY dense (It'll BLOW you densitometer!!! ;-). Sending
100,000 Terabytes is no more expensive than sending 1.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:41:15 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> wrote:

> >Lets toss some reasonable numbers around. The first number is the size of
> >Mora's economy. 10 billion citizens at TL15, so we should have a GDP of
> >around lets call it 150 trillion credits.
>
> Which is a GDP of 15.000 credits per head. I think this is increadibly high.
> Where does this number come from? (I guess this is a canon number)

It's reasonable.  The estimates made by list members using various rules 
(TCS and Striker from CT, WTH from TNE, and so on) suggest an Imperium of
15 to 16 trillion citizens and a total GDP of PCr 220 to PCr 450; that's
a GDP per capita of somewhere from kCr 13.75 to kCr 30.  I'd say most of
the estimates of GDP per capita actually cluster close to kCr 15.

In the real world, for comparison, recently US GDP per capita was estimated
at $28600 -- for the UK and Germany about $20400 per capita, and Norway 
was about $26200 per capita.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:15:50 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

i was going to ignore this thread,  but i have to say something.

for all those out there that are so blantantly anti-religious with your
bashing of those who subscribe to a god, or a supernatural realm of belief...

you have replaced the one true god with your own god. That God is a cold hard
science. and that is the most harsh religion of all to bare. for there is no
compassion, no hope offered in it.  just dispassionate logic when ever it
works correctly, or at least until hte latest theory governing that area of
science comes out.

It is even more short sighted than any of the religions practiced by humanity.
it can not explain such things as the miricles that have occured (total
spontanious remision of cancer or 80% of medical cases that completely turn
around when the paitent is preyed for, or even ESP...)

i personnally believe in god for several reasons.  

one of them is that during the Gulf war on several sperate occassions i should
have been cut down in a hail of gun fire.  but none of those angry bullets
found me.  even when one of those iraqi soldiers was less than 10 feet away
form me.  he fired off his machinegun and destroyed the wall behind me, but
didn't touch any part of my body.

second reason...  i have always had the ability to promote healing in others,
or to lessen their pain when i touch them.  but i feel their pain when i do
this. to me its not a gift. its a curse. 

third reason.  i have Faith.  this is the most important reason.  no matter
what happens you must retain faith in something.  be it god, gods, nature or
science.  and as much as my life has totally sucked i have not been abandoned
by my faith.

call me a fool all you wish, and i will just ignore your short sightedness and
pety arrogance.  for through out human history you can see where faith has
held a people together against overwhelming odds (malta in ww2 for an
instance)...  battles of less importance where lost when everyone's faith was
no more.  but mankind has endured and survied.  grown stronger in both their
faith and their abilty to weather the storms of civilization and technological
improvements.  

when something comes along questioning or disproving some minor part of
religious texts we have been able to reinterpret said text to gain a better
understanding of it.  when it was discovered that the world was just bigger
than they thought it was mankinds understanding and faith grew with this new
knowlege.  i see no diffrence when we reach out to the stars and find another
race waiting for us since i dont see god wasting all his time with just us
(hell if i was a god with that much power i would fill the universe with so
much stuff i would have to make a bunch of pocket univereses to hold the
spillage).  that is where our combined arrogance sits (both those who beleive
in god and thsoe that beleive in science) when we disbelieve in the possiblity
of something being "Out There"..

how many times science has come up short with out the 'right' answers... how
many times has science had to be 'rewritten' to fit what is real and what is
not?  how many scientific theories have had to thrown away or completely
rewritten?  at one time sceinctific community said evolution was the way man
came about until proof that modern man and dinosaurs where around at the same
time when foot prints in sandstone was found down in Texas, or that bones of
several 'prehistoric man' where located along with those of modern man as
well.  

the theory of evolution was completely re-written due to these findings.
they where not our predissors they say now.. but kissing cousins in the big
old family tree of primates.  

sceince like religion has to grown and evolue just as religion must.  for if
either becomes stagnate both they and humanity die.

but most inportnatly we must allow each and every individual to seek out their
own path. to establish their own belief system, and enure that others do not
put down or oppose the choices made by others.  

for some one who dispises religion so much, we can only feel so much pity for
them..  for they are not as enlighted as they would like to think. they are
nothing more than another pety and arrogant person no better than the extreme
religious zealots who cause so much sufforing for every one when they promote
terrorism in the name of their god.

richard 

Ps- so far i have been lucky, i have only met one person in my life i would
call a fool.  but he changed when the shells started to fall around us, and i
heard him prey the loadest for a savoiur...  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:17:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

Eric Freitas wrote:
> 
> >until they get cheaper...) lighter, and higher resolution. There are LCD
> >and other technologies heading to market that will put stuff that makes
> >these devices look like clay cunieform tablets. Those technologies
> >_will_ revolutionize printing.
> 
>     I'm holding out until I can get a display that I can fold up and put in my
> pocket, and that has the capability to hold up to 1Mbyte of text or
> black & white graphics.  Some of the technologies coming together are
> amazingly close to this now.
> 

In fact, one of the technologies I was thinking about is able to do
that, the so-called 'smart paper'. It's the one with tiny latex beads,
black on one side, white on the other, that respond to electrical
signals by flipping. They have flexible examples in the lab now, at
something like 300-350 pixels per inch. (Saw it in Scientific American
sometime in the last few months.) Really cools stuff, and of course,
this is another one of those things that Xerox Parc developed back in
the 80's, and they never capitalized on...(IIRC)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:23:58 EST
From: "Sean Nelson" <sean_c_nelson@hotmail.com>
Subject: alpha centauri

Imaginactra opined:
> Alpha Centari is a hot, trinary star system with little
>possibility of hapitable systems, let alone an indegionous human 
>population.

I've heard this before, but without significant description.
Is it the fact that the system is a trinary one that makes life 
improbable, or is it the primary itself?

In looking at a catalogue of stars within 50ly I noticed most (all?) had 
stars with luminosities that seemed too bright or too dim to support 
human-like life.  I THOUGHT Alpha Centauri might be OK, but then I read 
in a couple of places that binary (or trinary) systems were unsuitable - 
but I am afraid I still don't understand why.

MTU had hundreds of breathable, habitable planets, but I am starting to 
question the accuracy of their frequency.

Does anyone know if there is a "rule of thumb" scientists use when 
looking for stars that might support habitable planets?

Is the CT/MT universe more generous in handing out habitable life 
systems than current scientific theory dictates?

One other question, I've watched one episode of B5 (I have no idea what 
it is about), but I noticed they have characters they refer to as 
"Centauris".  Are these supposed to be bipedal life forms from the 
Centauri system, or descendents of earth colonists?

All opinions welcome,

- -Sean

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:20:46 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Space Religion (on topic)

Hi, folks!

Religion CAN be an interesting discussion.  It CAN be on-topic cause
there is a BITS book on the subject, and there have been other
"official" articles published as well.

However, tying the game's religions to real world religions is moot.  In
the official Traveller universe, Marc Miller has determined that there
is a "Grandfather" and other "Ancients" who genetically changed
creatures and placed them around the universe.  There are also other
aliens that were not "uplifted" by them apparently.  As far as I know,
he didn't say that there is a truth out there that has a religion tied
to it.  Is there one, Marc?  Is there a religion in the Traveller
Universe that worships "Grandfather"?  Or were the ancients created?  Is
there a power behind them?  Are there Millerites?

This rules out any of the "Terran" religions as we know them today,
because all are false, in the Traveller Universe. 

Therefore, in the spirit of the game, either put them in or leave them
out, cause in the game, it doesn't matter.  In real life, this is not
the forum for a serious discussion about religions.  That should be
off-line.

IMTU, I don't have a Grandfather (like Marc created).  And I also have a
True religion.  

Greg
The Count

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:33:03 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 Courier network

>>>>
Alternatively, RSB mentions simulacra - clones brought up in
deliberately
identical circumstances to their donor.  Such clones would be similar
to
their donor, but they would still not necessarily be "identical" in
terms
of experiences and personality.
>>>>
A very good example of this is the book Cyteen by C.J. Cherryh.  I
read it years ago, and found it for US$0.25 at a 2nd hand shop a few
days ago.  The whole book is about the growing up of such a simulacra
(though that is not what they are called in the book).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:49:53 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Stranded in the Middle of Nowhere...

On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Michel Vaillancourt wrote:


>         IMTU, since Jump seems to be influenced by gravity wells, the
> "random direction, random distance" misjump always winds up coming out near
> *some* gravity well....  wether or not it is a *useful* gravity well is a
> different story.

  Stands to reason this must be so.(I have also assumed this IMTU.) There
are numerous canonical references to misjumped ships being found floating
in this or that solar system. If the direction and distance of the misjump
were totally random, the odds of this happening would be essentially zero
(even considering _every_ misjump made during Imperial history).

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:55:44 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: WARNING! Bad seller!

As much as it disgusts me to say it, we have a bad seller on the TML.

Joel Pratt held a Traveller auction in October, 1998. Although I paid
him with a money order, I have yet to receive the item I bid on nor
have I received any reply from him to my emails despite his having my
home address, work and personal email addresses, and daytime phone
number. Three other people on the TML have confirmed they haven't
received replies and/or items from him.

Therefore, I am posting Joel's name to various websites who track
bad sellers and I'm filing a mail fraud complaint with the U.S.
Postal Service. If anyone knows Joel personally, please let him know
that I am very serious about filing charges against him and he had
better get in contact with me *immediately*.

For those of you who are new to the TML, this is the first time in the
years I've been a TML member that this has happened. I do NOT hold
anyone else, including the TML administrator, responsible for Joel's
actions and greatly appreciate the character and helpfulness of all
the TML members I've had dealings with in the past.

David Smart

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:57:50 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> writes:
>Sometimes, all you need is a toy. Why would I want an 11" color screen,
>100
>BT Ethernet, USB and a host of other goodies when all I'll really need is
>something I can use to store and retrieve information really quickly? :-)

Hm. Imagine the equivalent of a clipboard wired into a 100-base-T Internet
connection.

Your players decide to hijack the ship they're on. You connect to the
deckplans webring, pick a likely passenger liner, and show them the
plans...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:07:02 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

In a message dated 12/1/98 2:22:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< Frank, please refrains. Some people here just might take their religious
beliefs 
 rather seriously and we **REALLY** don't need any more flamewars.
 
 I will not respond any further and I would exhort everybody to show
restraint.
  >>

I concur...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:35:08 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: WARNING! Bad seller!

In a message dated 12/1/98 8:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
David.Smart@ons.octel.com writes:

<< Joel Pratt held a Traveller auction in October, 1998. Although I paid
 him with a money order, I have yet to receive the item I bid on nor
 have I received any reply from him to my emails despite his having my
 home address, work and personal email addresses, and daytime phone
 number. Three other people on the TML have confirmed they haven't
 received replies and/or items from him. >>

That's sad; I had good dealings with him a couple of months ago, but I guess
people change. I'm still waiting for my Prison Planet that I paid for back in
October, from Ed Leland's (aka Panzerman66@hotmail) Traveller Auction, so I
will probably have to do the same thing... It's really pathetic...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:23:25 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Bad seller!

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/1/98 8:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> David.Smart@ons.octel.com writes:
>
> << Joel Pratt held a Traveller auction in October, 1998. Although I paid
>  him with a money order, I have yet to receive the item I bid on nor
>  have I received any reply from him to my emails despite his having my
>  home address, work and personal email addresses, and daytime phone
>  number. Three other people on the TML have confirmed they haven't
>  received replies and/or items from him. >>
>
> That's sad; I had good dealings with him a couple of months ago, but I guess
> people change.

I bought some things from him a few months back as well and was pleased
with his rapid and fair dealing.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:07:05 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Ararat class corvette (very long...sorry)

Below is the write up of the ARARAT class corvette. It's one of the more
common patrol vessels encountered in the boarder areas of the Solomani
Confederation circa 5630 (Solomani) or 1112 Imperial. I used energy weapons
exclusively since it's a long duration vessel (and I think tht the Solomani
are still energy weapon prone). The deck plans for the ship are already
started and I expect to have them complete and a package up on my web site
in about a week. As always comments, criticisms, flames, posts about
holidays etc. are welcome.


S.C.S.S. Katoomba SJ-204, Ararat class SJ Corevette (FF&S v2)
Designed by Camelot Construction, New Aberdeen Ship Yards, Home

Statistics
 Tons: 1000std ( SL Slab Hypersonic )
 Volume: 14000m3
 Mass (L/C): 12115t/10597t
 Dimensions: 82.5m x 20.6m x 8.4m
 Size: 9
  Crew: 16/44
  Passengers High/Med: 0/0
  Passengers Low: 0
  Troops/Science: 0/0
  Frozen Watch: 0
  Cargo: 80std (2/0 /Hdl:2x30ton0)
  Cost: 837.986 MCr
  Maintenance Points: 346
  Tech Level: 14 (12/14)

Electronics
 Controls: Holographic, High automation. 5xFibComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86).
Terrain following sensors (TF:540, NOE:180). Bridge.
 Communications: 1xRadio (500,000km, 0.17MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
 Sensors: 1xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm], 0.01MW). 1xAEMS (10, 0.13MW). 1xLIDAR (15.5
[5mkm], 4MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 1091MW, -0.5 at 177MW), Act:0.5, Neu:-1,
Grav:1

Weaponry
 1xBeam Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)
 4xHeavy Laser Turret (+5) 1/2-0-0-0 [1,100/29-14-7-4] (LR)
 1xLight Spinal PA (+5) 2/8-8-8-6 [1,100/284-284-284-186] (LR)

Features
 10xAirlock
 1xArmory (1.57std ea.)
   1xGym (2.5std ea.)
   1xFull Galley (Cap:44)

Small Craft
   1xMinHgr (50std, 1 hatches)

Crew Details
 3xMnvr. 7xEngr. 5xGunn. 2xScrn. 20xTrps. 6xCmnd. 1xMed.

Performance
4 Jump (100std/pc fuel)
2.8/3.2 Maneuver (/Thruster:840MW)
1.2/1.3 Contra-grav (238MW)
3882kph/4111kph Atmosphere (/Crus:2912kph/3083kph)
4 Power (/Fus:1765MW,0.5yr )
0 Battery
2 Fuel (/Scoop:5 /Purif:48,4MW)
39/6/1/0/0 Accomodations
## Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Nm /'St)
3 G-Comp
0 ESA
0 Sandcasters
0 Damper Turrets
1 Damper Screen (2MW)
1 Meson Screen (4.08163265306122MW)
0 Force Field
0 Gravtics
20 [60] Armor, 18 Structure

Discription:

The Ararat class corvette is a Solomani fast patrol and fleet screen vessel
prevailant In the Solomani Confederation High Guard Fleet. The ship is seen
in two basic configurations, the PAW spinal mount version and the Meson
spinal mount version. Both utilize the punch of a light spinal mount, and 4
heavy laser turrets to screen larger Fleet vessels during major engagements.

The Ararat class also sees  a great deal of use as a boarder patrol vessel.
In this role the spinal weapons present a "quick kill" effectiveness against
commerce raiders. The Jump 4 (or conbination thereof) and 3 gee performance
of the Ararat class provides rapid movement between, as well as in, boarder
systems. This allows a "fight or run" tactic while on boarder patrol duties.
The Ararat class if , rarely, facing an enemy with greater fire power, can
typically jump out system and act as a fast courier sounding the alarm.

The inclusion of a 20 man Confederation Fleet Marine unit also allows the
Ararat class on patrol to act as a quick interdiction vessel for planetary
actions. The Marines, who act as support and damage control during space
borne actions, are supported by the inclusion of a 50 sdt modular cutter.
There is cargo space available in the design to store 2 modules (3 if one is
"mounted", however this dictates the use of external module changes).

The S.C.S.S. Katoomba, detailed above, is typical of this class of vessels.

Notes:

The Ararat class Corvette is one of the more commonly encountered vessels
found along the Solomani boarder (IMTU). Most often it is on patrol in a
commerce protection role and in a "show the flag" capacity among Solomani
colonies. The cutter and Marine compliment, along with the random but
frequent appearances of these small ships in a young colony's sky tend to
discourage "anti-party" activities.

The Ararat is a military vessel and it's accomodations reflect this. With
the exception of a large state room which doubles as an infirmary for the
ship's medic, and 6 small staterooms for the Naval and Marine officers, the
crew is housed in 2 bunk rooms, one for Naval and one for Marine personnel.
A gym is gym is provided to keep the troops in trim, and it is equipt with
holographic target practice facilities. THere is also an armory which houses
the personnel weapons.

Two modules for the cutter can be stored independantly, taking up 60 tons of
cargo space. If only 2 modules are carried there is, barely enough room to
switch them internally. A third can be carried mounted and the modules can
be changed using the rules found in Adventure 7 Broadsword (CT).  Typical
modules carried include an ATV, Personnel, and open cargofor patrol duty.
During Fleet action one or more Fighter module(s) can be used to supply
further screening capability.

Mike Peters, Letterworks@CITnet.com
webpage:"Jump Point" http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's
sake. The great affair is to move."
Robert Louis Stevenson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:29:13 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Manned Orbital Sensors

Orbital Sensor Platform for planets without a highport, This unit pfrovides
good scan coverage of the space around a planet.  It is capable of
detecting unstealthed ships out to 10,000,000 miles away (Free Trader, -9
to skill)


Manned Orbital Sensor Platform (TL 10)

Crew: Commander(Leadership), 6 Sensor Techs (Electronics
Operation[Sensors]), 3 Commo Techs (Electronics Operation[Commo]).

20 Space Hull, 100DR, Basic Bridge, Engineering, Manuver, 3 Staterooms,
Utility, 0.5 cargo.

Statistics:  EMass 98.86, LMass 98.86, Cost 11.9675MCr(Without Discount),
HP 6,000.

Performance: Accel 0.40Gs, Jump 0, Air Speed USL, Size Modifier +7.




Note: while the sensors can detect a ship out to 1,000 hexes, its not
*likely*. no mods to detect on a free trader gives a range of 30 hexes. A
more stringent application (no mods vs standard scout) gives an effective
range of 3 hexes (15 hexes with a handoff or prior detection) and a max
possible range of 100 hexes (450 hexes with a handoff).

A Rampart Fighter would be -2 to detect in the same hex (+2 with a handoff
or prior detection), with a max possible range of 7 hexes (30 hexes. with a
handoff)


If you want to relate this to the piracy debate, a 400 dton TL 10 ship with
Basic stealth and EM:
no mods at 4 hexes, with a max detection possible at 150 hexes.

the jump limit for a standard planet is 80 hexes, at this range the
hypotheical pirate is -8 to detect.

if we assume an operator skill of 12 that is a 4 or less to detect. or
1.85% per turn this give a 49% chance of detection after 36 hours. not real
good for the pirate, but not impossible odds either.

a ship of the same size with military stealth would be impossible to detect
at this range. (unless you switch to higer TL sensors)

On of these, a pair of launches to service it and 16 light fighters cost
less than 100MCr.  If a world has any resonable population (say 10,000,000
cits with taxes of 1Cr year to maintain this) it should have at least this
much in the way of defenses.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:37:04 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: GT: Fighters for UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier

Here are some possible designs for the strike carrier:


 Laser Fighter:

Crew: Pilot (Pilot [Aerospace Fighter]), Gunner (Electronics Operations
[Sensors], Gunner [Beam])

10 Space SL Hull, 100DR, Cockpit, 6 Manuver, Laser.

Statistics:  EMass 47.86, LMass 47.86, Cost 4.87M$, HP 3,000.

Performance: Accel 5.01 Gs, Jump 0, Air Speed 3000, Size Modifier +6.





Missile Fighter

Crew: Pilot (Pilot [Aerospace Fighter]), Gunner (Electronics Operations
[Sensors], Gunner [Missile])

10 Space SL Hull, 100DR, Cockpit, 4 Manuver, 3 Missile Launcher.

Statistics:  EMass 69.5, LMass 69.5, Cost 3.5725M$, HP 3,000.

Performance: Accel 2.30 Gs, Jump 0, Air Speed 2449, Size Modifier +6.





Mixed Fighter:

Crew: Pilot (Pilot [Aerospace Fighter], Gunner [Beam]), Gunner (Electronics
 Operations [Sensors], Gunner [Missile])

10 Space SL Hull, 100DR, Cockpit, 5 Manuver, Laser, Missile Launcher.

Statistics:  EMass 57.46, LMass 57.46, Cost 4.7275M$, HP 3,000.

Performance: Accel 3.48 Gs, Jump 0, Air Speed 2738, Size Modifier +6.




It looks like 50 tons each isn't far off.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1219
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1220



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Spinal Mounts for GT
Re: Comments on G:T Decafreighter
Re: Joel Pratt
Re: GT: Ship Design Question
GT Docking costs
Stellar Diameter
Re: mostly G:T
Re: Ship Design Question
Re: bays in G:T
GT Khushdakaa class light freighter
GT: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11
Re: mostly G:T
Re: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: G:T misjump chances
Re: Fleet Intruders
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:20:26 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Spinal Mounts for GT

I have been thinking that spinal mounts for GT should really be built with
the concealed potion as they are entirly within the body of the vessel..

Comments?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:20:33 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Comments on G:T Decafreighter

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:49:58
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Comments on G:T Decafreighter
>From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
>Subject: Deca-class freighters
>

>
I cant put this politely. Too many ships in canon were not optimised in
terms of price.
*****************
Book 2 (and IIRC High Guard as well) doesn't lend itself to cost
optimisation.




BTW, thrust has been based on mass since FFS v1.
**********
my point exactly.



 Incidentally, I dont like
cargo to be assumed at 5t per dton ... that is about 0.3 t/m3, which is
lower than I think most commodities would be.
**************88
Many would be more. a few would be less.  you can assume any number you
like.  What desity do you prefer?

>
>
>Secondly, streamlining is vicious in G:T, at 20% of total volume, no
>discounts. Unless this has been errata'd, I would argue it should be a 20%
>increase in surface area (in effect, a 20% loss of DR), with no effect on
>volume as such. Volume is only really a concept that applies in jump
space,
>and jump space doesnt care what shape you are, just how much volume you
>take up.
>************
>What is actualy is is a 25% increase in surface area, with the effect of
>taking up more room in a spacedock and having to extend the jump feild to
>cover the streamlined shape.
It's a change in canon I dont like. The G:T rules as they stand make
planetfall-capable merchants too inefficient, and we want to encourage
ships that can make planetfall themselves, rather than stay in orbit and
have big interface shuttles come up to meet them.
****************
These are encuraged by the number of low tech, small starport woulds in the
Imperium.  IMO the interface suttles are only available at A, B and some C
starports. if you don't stick to those ports, the benifit you gain buy not
chosing streamlined is countered by having to carry your own shuttles.




Anyway, a mostly smooth sphere or cylinder should be capable of making
planetfall with contragravity, as long as you didnt leave too many bits
sticking out.
**************
They can, but have no landing gear, so you would have to land on water
(most ships will float.)

>
It's meant to be very hard to hurt with TL10 lasers. I'm not even sure that
DR2100 is thick enough.
***********
make it laserproof then, we only need 3,600 DR. (6,000 DR to proof against
TL 12 lasers)



Considered, and filed under 'Famile Spofulam Built Me'. It is FS, so it has
a Honking Big Particle Accelerator. The ship is meant to intimidate the
crap out of ethically challenged civilians. If they are forced to stay at
long range, then our odds of surviving long enough for the cavalry to
arrive are improved.
************
True, I was neglecting that it is a FS design......how about a spinal mount
instead?


10 laser turrets will give the point defense, plus my reading of the combat
rules indicate missiles can ram other missiles, and we will have missile
parity against most things.
*********
Yes they can.
>
>
>Crew is : 52 - 8 Command, 22 Maneuver, 8 Jump, 2 Missile, 2 PAW, 10
>Lasers/Stewards. 8 single staterooms, 22 double staterooms. 120
passengers.
>*************8
>I get (Assuming 8 command are Captain, 1st O, 2 Pilots, 2 Sensor and 2
>commo) 27 Engineering, 13 gunners (PAW needs only one) for 4 single
>(Captain, 1st O, Cheif Engineer, and Head Steward/Gunner) and 22 double.
>You can add 8 Steward/Cargo, and keep the passengers the same.
>
>Remember that you can carry 240 middle passangers instead fo high.
No you cant. Not charging Cr 8000 a passage you cant - the economics rules
are broken enough to start with, doubling the density of middle passenger
biofreight makes them into even more of a sick joke than they are (and I'm
referring to the Traveller trade and freight rules, not the half page job
in G:T).
*************
Well hopefully this will be fixed in GT trade and commerce.  My suggestion
for it is 4,000 for a middle passage and two per stateroom.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:51:07 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Joel Pratt

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:

> Has anyone received email from Joel Pratt or Traveller items he
> auctioned last October? If so, please reply to me personally
> rather than to the TML.

I got a fair amount of stuff from him, but IIRC, it was more recently
than October.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:08:25 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: Ship Design Question

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:24:07 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: GT: Ship Design Question
Regarding laser components in the modules.

*************************
They have:
The laser with the extrme range and compact options.
Full Stabalization
A universal mount
A powercell holding one shot
Fusion power components for 1/60 shot.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:18:41 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: GT Docking costs

The standard docking fees are set at 100 Cr/dton per week.

how about adding some short term fees

say 25 Cr/dton per day

or 5 Cr/dton per hour

so a free trader pays:
20KCr/week
5KCr/Day
1KCr/hour

While a 20 ton Gig (like from Ian's unstreamlined trader) would pay a tenth
of that, but would need to rent warehouse space as well.

any thoughts on the cost of warehouse space?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:02:20 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Stellar Diameter

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:18:20 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Stellar Diameter
Ewan Quibell wrote:
>I've had a quick look through WBH and have found the Stellar
>mass tables, but could not find anything for Stellar Diamiter.
>Did I miss something ? If not is there any way to generate, or
>gage stellar diamiter from Stellar mass or stellar type ?
**************
IIRC there is one in GURPS Space.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:12:42 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: mostly G:T

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:01:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: mostly G:T
Ian or Katts writes:

>
> Sandcasters take up volume, at 1 dton per 3. Under the G:T rules, armour
> does not take up volume.

Well, sort of.  The armor doesn't take up volume, but the manuever drives
required to support the armor do.  For a 170,000 sf ship, +100 DR is 850 tons.
Manuever drives to move this weight at 1 G are 21+ spaces and 3.4 MCr.  One
extra sandcaster is 1 space (plus 1/8 space manuever) and costs .27 MCr
including the extra manuever.  Unless you're expecting to defend against 10+
ships at once, the sandcasters are a better bargain.

*********************
Sandcasters can also be used in the point defense role vs missiles.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:27:07 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Ship Design Question

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:14:07 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Ship Design Question
>The turrets and bays are external to the ship. the one space is rotation
>space for the turret and a gunner station.  The turret takes up one space
>inside the ship, and would provide 3 spaces outside the ship.
That's a prety major change in meaning you have there.
***********
that is the way it is written,



>The bay works the same way.
The bay doesn't work the same way, it takes up space inside the ship
and merely represents the necessary hardpoints, power routing and C3
gear required to connect weapons and other equipment.
***************
if you put the bay inside the ship is works as you discribe, but if you
want mor choice in your targets, you need to have it be able to rotate and
bear on the target. an internal by is cheaper (because you dont need to
armor it seperatly) but not as combat effective.  If you like you can call
an external bay a BHT (Big Honkin' Turret.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:57:29 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: bays in G:T

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:28:17
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: bays in G:T
>From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
>Nope, it isn't a typo. David Pulver said he designed them that way
>intentionally, seeing the bay more as a big turret with crew inside it
>(kinda like a cupola, I thought.) The 20 spaces inside the ship are
>basically for the support machinery and "rotation space".
>
No, it's a typo.
Otherwise, we have to assume that
1) very heavily armoured ships magically get armour over their bays for
free, and
*****************
They don't, each bay has a surface area of 6,500 sf. it gets armored
seperatly.



2) all jump ships with bays magically get more efficient jump drives (or
that jump ships without bays install bigger jump drives than they need)
***************
We already assume that with turrets.



If you like you can make the bays internal, remember to restrict their arcs
of fire.  You can also make the turrets pop turrets, they will take up 4
internal spaces, but mass and cost remain the same.


While we are fixing up typos, you missed explicity stating the minimum hull
size needed to install bays (otherwise FS is building a 40 dton Heavy
Fighter with a PAW bay bigger than it is).
**************
Each bay takes the place of 10 turrets, you have a minimum size or 1,000
spaces.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:17:43 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: GT Khushdakaa class light freighter

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:58:39 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Khushdakaa class light freighter
Here's the newest (and perhaps final) version of my Kushdakaa class light
freighter. The goal here was to design a ship that with very little
creative trading (read, speculative) this thing can perhaps turn a profit.
It does this by:
  * Being small enough to be operated by one or two individuals -
independent types a-la Han Solo. such independents would no doubt dispense
with formal salaries - relying purely on the profit margin.
  * Class discount of 20%...this hearkens back to the CT days, but I like
it, so I still use it IMTU.
  * Smallest possible drives - drives are by far the most expensive item on
a ship.
  * A small power shortfall - requiring creative power management but
lowering power plant cost.
  * Fuel purification so unrefined can be bought. Scooping allowed for teh
adventurous captain.
Comments and slams are encouraged
****************

Good Idea, Same ship, converted to GT.
=====================================================================
Khushdakaa class Light Frieghter (TL 10)
Crew: Pilot.
100 Space SL Hull, 100DR, Basic Bridge, Engineering, 10 Manuver, 2 Jump, 10
Fuel, SpaceDock (Holds 0.5, 1 Door), 2 Staterooms, Utility, Atmosphere
Processor, Turret, 42.5 cargo (+3 in turret).

Statistics:  EMass 150.025, LMass 380.925, Cost 16.9516MCr(Without
Discount), HP 15,000.

Performance: Accel 1.05 Gs, Jump 1, Air Speed 1666, Size Modifier +8.

Economic Profile (Yearly)
Purchase Price: 13.6MCr (with a 20% volume discount)
Down Payment: 2.72MCr
Expenses        Full Load    80% Load    50% Load
Ship's Payment  0.6800MCr    0.6800MCr   0.6800MCr
Maintenance     0.0136MCr    0.0136MCr   0.0136MCr
Fuel            0.0262MCr    0.0262MCr   0.0262MCr
Salaries        0.1584MCr    0.15,4MCr   0.1584MCr
Berthing        0.2500MCr    0.2500MCr   0.2500MCr
Subtotal        1.1282MCr    1.1282MCr   1.1282MCr
Income          Full Load    80% Load    50% Load
Middle Passage  0.40MCr       0.40MCr     0.40MCr
Freight         1.05MCr       0.83MCr     0.52MCr
Subtotal        1.45MCr       1.23MCr     0.92MCr
Profit/Loss     0.32MCr       0.10MCr    -0.21MCr
=====================================================================
Even better under GT.


Some small changes to the advert:  (only changes included)
The small size
also makes the Khushdakaa extremely affordable: with standard 20%
discounts (normal for mass produced designs) the ship costs less
than 14MCr.
Even though it is small and inexpensive, the Khushdakaa performs
admirably. Nearly forty-five percent of its volume is devoted to
cargo space (in the form of four 10.5 ton cargo bays and a single 0.5
ton luggage bay),

The single purification unit can purify the entire fuel supply
in under 2 hours.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:23:25 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: GT: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:14:24 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11
High Guard Desgin for my "TNEC" Traveller game...  Biggest animal currently
in the UN Deep Space Navy's inventory.
        O/________________________________________
        o\
        County-Class Strike Carrier   Type CS
        TL 11.  1200 tons.

        The ship has 12 turrets. There are 12 beam lasers mounted in 4
turrets organized in 2 batteries.  There are 8 plasma guns mounted in 4
turrets organized in 2 batteries.  There are 12 missile racks mounted in 4
turrets organized into 1 battery.  For defense it has 12 sand-casters
mounted in 4 turrets organized into 2 batteries and an agility of 1.  There
is a 40-ton magazine and are 20% of missiles normally carried are nuclear
weapons.
**************
12 or 16 turrets?

        There are 30 ship's vehicles.  The ship carries three squadrons of
Typhoon-class "Standard-III" multi-role fighters.  Two squadrons of
Typhoons
are armed with single pulse lasers, while the third is armed with triple
missile racks.
**********
10 dton fighters?



        The County-Class Strike Carrier requires a crew of 80.  10 Command
section, 2 Engineers, 7 Gunners and 61 Flight section are required.
        The fighter crews operates the fighter compliment.
        The ship costs MCr709.20, including architects fees and takes 48
months to build.  The first was built in 2097, with a production run of 24
of these ships scheduled between 2097 and 2105.  The lead ship was the
UN-DSN Dover, and has been assigned to the Spinward areas of the
established
Terran Sphere.
        O/________________________________________
        o\
SHIP DESIGN WORKSHEET                    1.  Date of Preparation
                    2097
Converted to GT:


Crew: Captain(Leadership, Tactics), XO/Nav Officer (Astrogation), 2 Pilot
(Pilot[Spacecraft]), 2 Sensor Techs (Electronics Operation[Sensors]), 4
Commo Tech/ Flight Controllers (Electronics Operation[Commo]), 6 Engineers
(Engineering and Mechanic), Medics(First Aid), 9 Gunners (Gunner [Beam,
Missile or Sand]), 30 Fighter Pilots(Pilot [Aerospace Fighter]), 30 Fighter
Gunners (Electronics Operation[Sensors], Gunner [Beam or Missile]).

1200 Space SL Hull, 100DR, Hardened Command Bridge, Engineering, 90
Manuver, 24 Jump, 240 Fuel, 30 Vehicle Bay (Fighter), 61 Staterooms, 3
Utility, 3 Atmosphere Processor, 12 Turret, 12 Laser, 12 Missile Launcher,
12 Sandcaster, 22 cargo.

Statistics:  EMass 1,641.97, LMass 3,251.97, Cost 174.4779MCr(Without
Discount), HP 75,000.

Performance: Accel 1.11 Gs (2.05 Gs without fighters), Jump 1, Air Speed
2128, Size Modifier +10.

15.  Notes
Carries 30 Typhoon "Standard-III" Fighters
********
for conversion purpouses I assumed that the fighters are 10 dtons and mass
50 tons each.

This kind of ship is also whre the GT ships come out cheaper compared to
others. the undiscounted price is less than 25% of the HG _Discounted_
price.  For small civilian designs the systems match well

with the extra savings you could buy Total Compartmentalisation, Radical
Stealth and Radical EM the accel stays the same and the price is bumped up
to _only_ 264MCr.

The crew is a close match,  three of the six engineers are for the small
craft.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:59:08 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: mostly G:T

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:54:04
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: mostly G:T
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
>Subject: Re: mostly G:T
>
>Ian or Katts writes:
>
>And that 20 dt shuttle costs a couple of megacredits, and adds 30-40 tons of
>weight (thus requiring more manuever drives), and without having a second
>shuttle you can't do fuel scooping (in fact, you can't obtain fuel at all
>unless there's some at the highport), and significantly increases loading and
>unloading time.  These are not negligible effects, particularly at low-grade
>starports -- and the simple truth is, PC starships (_regardless_ of design) are
>only viable at low-grade starports.  Multi-kiloton bulk freighters can undercut
>them every time as long as there's sufficient cargo transit and facilities on
>the route to support the larger freighters.
>

20dtons of cargo space earns KCr 40 revenue per month. This will support a
couple of megacredits in extra sticker cost. Plus you can have express
cargo already in the ship's boat, ready for the first trip down.
***************

Hrm
40 - 21 (Boat Bay for a gig) + 6 (Cargo in the Gig) - 3 (thrusters for the
gig and extra cargo) = 22 dtons = 44KCr month if running full.

the gig and thrusters run 5.97 MCr with a payment of 25KCr / month

Looks viable to me.





Smaller ships can and have competed with bigger ones on the same route,
*provided* they are prepared to load, up and go immediatly. None of this
one week stuffing around waiting for a cargo ... when the cargo shows up,
you *go*.
**************
Agreed




Personally, I believe that you should be able to load the LHyd equivalent
of 44 gallon drums of AvGas onto your gig at the downport, and then
transfer them back off the gig and into the tanks. It's a bitch of a job,
but it strikes me as doable (the airport at Currie on King Island used 44
gallon drums of avgas to refuel the light planes that landed on the
island).
************
But do they do that for the tramp freighters that dock at the port?  or a
better example, does the freighter send a launch in to pick up the drums
and take them out to refuel the freighter?



Now, according to p119 of G:T it takes 18 minutes to escape Earth's
gravitational field at 2 gees, so I'd say that a one hour round trip is
reasonable.
***********
and an unstreamlined free trader with a gig will take 19 hours to do a full
load (it can unload at the same time though). it will either take a full
day or it wil  need 3 pilots for the shuttle.....hrm have to take another
crewman or two wages out of the profits

>> I used my words carefully ... 'too many bits sticking out' is a euphemism
>> for partial streamlining. Those 350 knot upper atmosphere winds are pretty
>> vicious.
>
>Not to something with the size and density of a traveller starship, at the
>pressures in the upper atmosphere.  A ship with the average aerodynamic
>streamlining of your average modern surface ship (which is to say, functionally
>none) will be fine.  Obviously, you can design a ship which wouldn't withstand
>low velocity atmospheric entry (large folding sensor arrays, for example), but
>that's because it has components which are incapable of entering atmosphere
>(regardless of actual streamlining of the hull) -- the hull itself will be
>_fine_ for any ship capable of withstanding one G.

I am perfectly happy with the level of streamlining on a modern surface
ship (ie it's a cow ... dont expect to play with grav fighters in the
atmosphere) being available, just as long as it costs less than 20% of the
volume of the ship.
Make 'partial streamlining' cost 10% of ship volume, maximum 10 dtons, and
I'll come to the party. Stubby wings, minimal lift, blobs of plastic over
the sensor arrays ...

************
the unstreamlined ships have this already. what they don't have is landing
gear and they can not do a balistic reentry. so where another ship would
have a half hor or so trip it would have several hours and would have to
worry much more about atmospheric conditions.  When it reached the surface,
it would have to find some water to land in (most ships can float).
>>
>> Sandcasters take up volume, at 1 dton per 3. Under the G:T rules, armour
>> does not take up volume.
>
>Well, sort of.  The armor doesn't take up volume, but the manuever drives
>required to support the armor do.  For a 170,000 sf ship, +100 DR is 850
tons.
>Manuever drives to move this weight at 1 G are 21+ spaces and 3.4 MCr.
One
>extra sandcaster is 1 space (plus 1/8 space manuever) and costs .27 MCr
>including the extra manuever.  Unless you're expecting to defend against
10+
>ships at once, the sandcasters are a better bargain.
The other consideration is that armour doesnt need crew.
**********
well actualy it does... engineering crew for the extra mauver drive.... it
requires less crew however.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:49:30 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct

> From: cjbrain <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
> Subject: RE: Professional Soldiers Code of Conduct
> I have just completed a rough draft of GENEVA CONVENTION FOR THE
> AMELIORATION OF THE CONDITION OF WOUNDED, SICK, MAROONED AND SHIPWRECKED
> MEMBERS OF ARMED FORCES IN SPACE OF 11 November, 2213 (GENEVA CONVENTION
V).
> I have completed it up to Article 36. Email me if you are interested,
it's
> pretty long (9 pages). It is only a draft and comments/
suggestions/offers
> of help are welcome. It is a quick rewrite of Convention 2, I hope that
the
> Geneva Convention Guys don't sue me...
> 
> Anybody got another word for Humanitarian that could apply to all species
?
> 
> What organization does 3I and it's enemies have instead of the Red
> Cross/Crescent ?

Send me a copy...

Legate Legion,  Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

We are Microsoft of Borg.  Your distinctive capabilities will be adapted to
service us.  Resistance is futile.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:51:37 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

You know I was thinking about this & the IN does have a J6 courier for its
use..

Legate Legion,  Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

We are Microsoft of Borg.  Your distinctive capabilities will be adapted to
service us.  Resistance is futile.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:52:29 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: G:T misjump chances

> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:54:52 -0800
> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: G:T misjump chances
> 
> Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:08:03, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> 
> >G:T misjump chances are simply too high.
> 
> Note that in GT, not all misjumps are disasterous.  They can
> result in things like no jump or a fail jump (it takes a week
> but you end up back where you started).
> 

Even for non-fatal misjumps, GT's figures are an order of magnitude higher
than any other version of Traveller.  Loren is considering an erratum,
amidst the other thousand things occupying his attention.

Sidenote:  anyone else notice that, contrary to every other version, the
*direction* of misjumps in GT isn't random? It has a strong negative
correlation with the intended direction of jump (average: 3.25 hexsides
away from jump direction).  Until that gets fixed, just fire up your
Suleiman's jump drive within 10 diameters, aim in the direction opposite
where you want to go, and hello, Jump-10 Courier!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:59:45 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fleet Intruders

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Fleet Intruders (was re: Fast Courier Services)
...
>The chance will depend on whether Imperial Navy Intelligence knows
>the TL-14 Zhodani have obtained jump-6 technology or not (Zho's are
>max TL 14, which limits them to jump-5).

  Isn't their homeworld (at least) TL F? IAC, we know that they don't
have the capability to allow fleet construction above TL E at this time.

>The Imperium will have standing forces in every system the Zho's can
>reach in one jump from known possible start positions. The farther
>from the Zho border, the less impressive these forces will necessarily
>have to be - it takes a smaller system monitor to whack a jump-6
>battleship than it takes to whack a jump-4 battleship, the latter has
>at least 22% more hull space to mount armor and weapons on.

  Remember, the Imperium has most of its' mobile fleet assets kept back
from the border to minimze the risk of the enemy defeating it in detail
after achieving strategic surprise. But the principle does hold.

>I would say the known presence of such deep penetration vessels
>would have a serious effect on politics. If you know your frontier is
>going to be "leaky", that enemy raiders will (at least for a time) strike
throughout your interior in time of war, you may be less likely to want
>a war. Since you'll be less sure you can seal your borders through force
>of arms, you may be more likely to attempt border security through
>diplomacy and compromise.

  This is a heck of a good point, and may be the underpinning of Zho
strategy in the Marches ("Gee, that was a nasty war but we taught the
dirty mind-raping bastids a lesson - let's not provoke them though").

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:59:55 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

...
>Since the Vargr lack humaniti's highly mobile lips, they have an entirely
>different dynamic when it comes to eating.

  What? Using their fingers is too good for them?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1220
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1221



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Humour?
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: Coup de Grace
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Space Religeon (Was (Re: Amish in Space) ***And a bunch of other stuff*** :) )
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re:  Stellar Diameter
re: alpha centauri
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: alpha centauri
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
Re: [OT] Re: Thanksgiving=?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=28USA=29=0D?=
Re: Space Religion (on topic)
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Fast courier services
Re: Stellar Diameter
Re: Fast Courier Services

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:00:05 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Humour?

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
...
>From:           	"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>[snip of rather inflamatory post]
>
>>Doesn't mean there won't be religions, but we can hope.
>
>Frank, please refrains. Some people here just might take their religious beliefs 
>rather seriously and we **REALLY** don't need any more flamewars.

  "Ward, the Kiwi's are fighting again!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:00:02 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

Tommy Grav wrote:

> I really think that buisness in the Imperium will be very different from
> how it is on Earth today, I from what I've read so far here, nobody (including
> me :-) has taken the time to sit down and go through every aspect of trade
> and business in the Imperium, given the canon setting. I mean, how do
> one do business when info takes a month to get to you. Or two months. Why do
> people risk their money on such endevors, when it is safer to do buisness
> on you home world? Is interstellar trade, (except for the free trader model)
> even possible?

No less so than the British East India Company, which routinely did
business in this fashion. Or ANY international corporation in the 18th
and 19th centuries, including, at a guess, _most_ of the Dutch
nation...the Netherlands got very very rich trading in that fashion.
Closer to your home, look at the Hanseatic League...travel times were
easily a week or two between most ports, were they not?

The Asian Silk Caravan route rediscovered by Marco Polo took months or
years to complete a round trip, yet there were a lot of traders willing
to make the trips, and it formed one of the bases of the Renaissance
economic boom of Italy.

If you can't get , for instance, tea on your home world, what you'll
risk to get it becomes much greater.

No, competing against locally produced goods is rarely profitable, but
when there is no local supply...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:09:25 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Coup de Grace

...
>>  The danger is that they might also wish to kill to protect their own
>>secrets - which may not coincide with the Imperiums...
>
>Ah.  You've been reading my campaign notes...

  Heh-heh (coughs nervously) - why, no, of course I wouldn't do that...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:33:55 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

Sword Worlder wrote:

> Just out of curiousity, what passage of scripture
> (Koran/Talmud/Bible)contradicts current scientific facts with
> reference to space travel?

None that I know of, and before anyone brings up genesis thereis a lot of
theological debate on the inherent unknowably of "God's" time scale.

> Not trolling, here.  Certainly there is much in the history of the OTU
> that would do so, but no scientific fact invalidates the Abrahamic
> covenant or those built on it.

Yep, that is my read on the childern of the book.

> Man is a religious being, can't help it.  Always looking for something
> to serve: a king, a flag, a god, pleasure, drugs, money, science,
> knowledge, nature.  You name it, man will find a way to idolize it.  I
> dare say that if an emperor proclaimed himself a god, many would
> follow him (many examples here).  Relics would be worshipped,
> technology would be.  Charms and tokens and idols would abound.  A
> Mule, the odd psycic, kings, the galactic core... You name it.  The
> more populated the universe, the more shades or religion, cultism and
> idolatry there would be.  There is no period of human history, no
> matter how "enlightened" the culture, that is free of idol worship.
> Every new culture encountered just adds another pantheon to the list.



- --
Ave et vale.
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:44:05 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (Was (Re: Amish in Space) ***And a bunch of other stuff*** :) )

Imaginactra wrote:

> On a more general note, would space travel promote or detract the power of
> religeon?

Yes and No? I tend to base my image of traveller on the Age of exploration. So you
could have it both ways. From the wild eyed Fanatical Atheist preaching
that science is the one true god, to the coldly mercenary missionary "converting"
the heathen to the orthodoxy of the state, the potential for great rivalry is
there.

> In space, science rules (generally... just ask John Glenn how much luck
> helps).

But, isn't luck just another superstition?

> However, if you read the journals of many of the early and mid 20th century
> physisists, you'll find their highly religeos, they do their reaserch to
> "figure out how God really did it".

Some still do.

> So, how will the existance of God and the "truiths" of Science co-exist in
> space, will the two enhance each other, or will one quench the other?

Who knows?

- --
Ave et vale.
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:46:31 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

Frank Pitt wrote:

> That's largely because we're such a young species and have only
> recently started generating people able to function without the
> crutch of religion.
>
> Doesn't mean there won't be religions, but we can hope.

 Frank Please don't troll here, we don't need to add another forbidden
topic.

- --
Ave et vale.
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:12:09 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

RSpake2064@aol.com wrote:

> i was going to ignore this thread,  but i have to say something.

Richard please don't let this go any farther, responding to trolling brings you
downto their level.


- --
Ave et vale.
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:18:27 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

Here is a new twist on this thread.

We can argue and get twisted up over our own personal belief systems.

OR.

Why don't we look at what kind of beliefs can exist within our common
frame of reference ( i.e. Traveller ).

Now that is said, lets get to work.

In history we have many various forms of religion and beliefs.
IMTU, the Church exists as a reformed conglomeration religions
that descended from the followers of Abraham ( i.e. Christian, Judaism, and
Islam ). The church is strongest in the Solomani rim and the Marches.
Most players get involved by doing things like rescue the missionary, or 
we don't have any money to pay you, but this medicine is desperately needed
but is illegal, etc. etc.

Other flavors of religions I haven't worked out in quite the same amount of
detail.

Anyone have any ideas what the main or dominant religions of the other
Major races would look like?



- --
Ave et vale.
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:33:02 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  Stellar Diameter

> From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com

> Ewan Quibell wrote:
> >I've had a quick look through WBH and have found the Stellar
> >mass tables, but could not find anything for Stellar Diamiter.
> >Did I miss something ? If not is there any way to generate, or
> >gage stellar diamiter from Stellar mass or stellar type ?

> IIRC there is one in GURPS Space.

	Worst table I have seen in years, and probably the only problem 
which I have found with G:S so far (otherwise, I recommend to have 
it around). In this table, almost all Radii are "0.0," because data 
is with only one digit precision. Totally useless for Traveller 
purposes (100D question).
	However, the table in Book 6: Scouts works 
fine for me. I know that a lot more realism can be added, but it's 
Quick&Dirty enough. I wonder why it can only be found there...
	I hope there is a T5: Scouts or a G:T: Scouts out there, waiting...
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:36:41 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: alpha centauri

>I've heard this before, but without significant description.
>Is it the fact that the system is a trinary one that makes life 
>improbable, or is it the primary itself?

There is a general feeling that the presence of multiple stars in a system
might disrupt the planet-formation process, unless the stars are very close
or very distant - but this is a vague theoretical idea; observationally, 
binary systems seem to have more protoplanetary disks and close gas-giant
planets (the only kind we can detect) than one might expect.

Secondly, (again depending on the orbits of the stars) you'll get variations
in temperature due to being nearer or farther from each star with time - 
probably only a few percent variations for most cases, but that might make
climates unstable.

>Does anyone know if there is a "rule of thumb" scientists use when 
>looking for stars that might support habitable planets?

Generally one expects habitable planets around sunlike single stars, but
that might just be our prejudice showing. Very massive stars are probably
too short-lived to develop life (which you need for a breathable atmosphere)
and too bright to have a habitable zone at the radii where most planets might
form; very low-mass stars would require habitable planets to be so close they
get tidally locked; but overall, we really don't understand star and planet
formation very well.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:37:47 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services
...
>Is the debate on military couriors or a freely avaible J6 mail network?
>Has anybody really done any extencive work on have fleet warfare in the
>Imperium will work? How do you defend your borders, when the enemy has the
>ability to jump 5 hexes behind your border hex?

  Both :) Lots of 5FW/TCS players could give you their opinions on stuff
from the way the OTU-based games play out, although TCS strategic results
are highly dependent on how the ref handles things. A discussion on fleet
intrusions into a sector-sized zone was covered elsewhere a ways back, but
the editing resulting from that needs to be done before I re-post the essay.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:37:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services
...
>You could equip most worlds with enough 20kt SDBs to stop the Zho before
>it can refuel (and incidently vapourise all pirates on sight. :-)

  Doesn't that violate 3I game laws?

...
>sooner or later they meet and the Zho finds out just what compromises
>were required to make a J6 battleship at TL14.

  Ouch (IAC, the Zho's only make J5 stuff, but J-6 capital ships are
fairly pointless). Perhaps they save their limited J-6 construction 
for couriers and explorers for the Core Expeditions?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:41:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

Frant Pitt opined:
> Actually _many_ scientific facts contradict this stuff, such as the
> actual age of the universe, the actual age of the planet, just about
> all facts about genetics, etc, etc.

Wrong, wrong, very wrong, and wrong again.  Don't confuse your
religiousity about your god Science with facts.  We have no reason to
believe that modern science isn't at least 90% quackery, just as it
has always been.  I was very careful to ask for facts.  You can
obviously offer none.

> But that's only if you're stupid enought to take such books literally.
> Unfortunately it's the nature of those who are religious to tend
> toward stupidity

The nature of truth is that it is a literal thing.  IQ 136, how about
you?

> Speak for yourself. I "serve" no-one and idolize nothing.

So deep in your pet beliefs that you leave no room for any opinion but
your own.  A true fanatic about your religion.

> That's largely because we're such a young species and have only
> recently started generating people able to function without the
> crutch of religion.

Young species?  As compared to what?  You've been watching too much
Star Trek.  Perhaps you should try that quaint little "crutch" analogy
on the kiddies.  The grown-ups know that it is analogous to a
stretcher or ambulance, carrying people to where they cannot get to on
their own.

If regurgitating humanistic rhetoric is all you can offer, don't
bother entering a serious discussion.

==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4+ ?tg ru++ 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:38:10 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

>From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
...
>Most TL9- societies would have some creation myth that will be challenged
>by some scientific truith. Notice most of my references are general in
>nature, with some sitings of earth religeon as a baseline.)

  (ship lands; much time passes)

  "And the tales tell of how our ancestors took a long journey through
the deeps as they fled their shining homeworld, Mud."

  "Whatever, gramps. Analysis proves that we're closely related to the
chimps and the dogs, and probably evolved from a common ancestor - though
where the six-tentacled things come in is still unclear."
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:15:48 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: alpha centauri

At 11:23 AM 12/1/98 EST, you wrote:

>I've heard this before, but without significant description.
>Is it the fact that the system is a trinary one that makes life 
>improbable, or is it the primary itself?

The problem is that Alpha Centauri A/B combuine to make life unlikely.  To
much light, not much of a chance of a habital planet for us.

<snip>

>Does anyone know if there is a "rule of thumb" scientists use when 
>looking for stars that might support habitable planets?

Figure the habitle zone.  This is the distance where a star would provide a
similar amount of energy to a planet as we get from ol'Sol at 1 AU.

>Is the CT/MT universe more generous in handing out habitable life 
>systems than current scientific theory dictates?

Exceedingly generous.

>One other question, I've watched one episode of B5 (I have no idea what 
>it is about), but I noticed they have characters they refer to as 
>"Centauris".  Are these supposed to be bipedal life forms from the 
>Centauri system, or descendents of earth colonists?

Neither.  The Centauri are indeed humanlike (when we first meet them they
claimed *we* were a lost Centauri colony!) but have significant physical
differences.

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:18:16 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

At 11:59 AM 12/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>...
>>Since the Vargr lack humaniti's highly mobile lips, they have an entirely
>>different dynamic when it comes to eating.
>
>  What? Using their fingers is too good for them?

Try drinking from a glass while holding your lips rigid.

Doug.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:52:20 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

Bruce Johnson said:
>In fact, one of the technologies I was thinking about is able to do
>that, the so-called 'smart paper'. It's the one with tiny latex beads,
>black on one side, white on the other, that respond to electrical
>signals by flipping. They have flexible examples in the lab now, at
>something like 300-350 pixels per inch. (Saw it in Scientific American
>sometime in the last few months.) Really cools stuff, and of course,
>this is another one of those things that Xerox Parc developed back in
>the 80's, and they never capitalized on...(IIRC)


Woah. That is just too nifty.

We are truly living in some interesting times.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:54:58 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

Rob Prior said:
>Hm. Imagine the equivalent of a clipboard wired into a 100-base-T Internet
>connection.
>
>Your players decide to hijack the ship they're on. You connect to the
>deckplans webring, pick a likely passenger liner, and show them the
>plans...


That sounds nifty. A bit more than I would need, but it sounds very cool.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:03:40 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Thanksgiving=?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=28USA=29=0D?=

> I always thought Traveller was a game written by science fiction gamers,
> primarily for science fiction gamers.

That too. ; )

> I'll grant that a majority of authors have been American, and probably a
> majority of readers as well, but there's a difference between a book being
> read by a nationality and a book being written for a nationality.

You're right, you're reading too much into my phrasing.  That's not what I
said (or believe).  Just that the US was the primary consumer base for
Traveller.  This is true w/ G:T (any metric translations yet?) and will
probably do so for T5.

> After all, just look at the number of translations there are. Look at the
> excellent work coming out of England, Norway, Finland, and Australia to
> name a few countries with active Traveller writers. What about BITS, which
> for a while was the _only_ active licensed Traveller publisher.

Err...  Haven't seen much of it.  Maybe BtC & some of T4 (though i haven't
looked at more than 4 of its titles).  Haven't seen a BITS 101 book or
anything (and I am quite interested in a couple of them... please get US
distribution...).

> 1) What purely local events get celebrated over larger areas, and why? Did
> some Sylean patriot/bigot (depending on your viewpoint) in the Office of
> Calendar Compliance seed the Imperial calendar with Sylean holidays?

Probably not much beyond the Sylean cultural region, though they would've
tried mightly in the early days (especially Pacification Campaigns) IMO.
YTUMV.
Would a Darmine (or Solomani or Vilani or Geonee, etc etc) get irked at seeing
a reference to a Sylean holiday on an xboat carried forum on a product that
was primarily aimed at the Sylean market?  

> 2) Does anyone else keep track of local years as well as Imperial years?

The Solomani were still on the Gregorian calendar to the Collapse, it seems.
The Vilani might've gone to the Sylean (Imperial) calendar, though Vilani
supremacists would maintain the Ziru Sirka's.  And of course, NE looks to
replace Imperial Year in the New Era, though it's just a take off from the
Imperial calendar in year 1201.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:03:50 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Religion (on topic)

> Religion CAN be an interesting discussion.  It CAN be on-topic cause
> there is a BITS book on the subject, and there have been other
> "official" articles published as well.

Yup.  For my part, I didn't bite that trolling.  IMO, DGP handled it pretty
good in the WBH (though i notice all the world profiles in the alien modules
don't have religious profiles).  Religion is something pretty fundamental to
man, though.  That said, in the most religious societies, there have been
skeptics and in the most secular, there have been the pious, but religion has
always been there, so far.  Man has a need to believe in *something*, even if
that's only himself (or science, etc).

> However, tying the game's religions to real world religions is moot.  In
> the official Traveller universe, Marc Miller has determined that there
> is a "Grandfather" and other "Ancients" who genetically changed
> creatures and placed them around the universe.  There are also other

Err...  Yaskoydray didn't seed Earth.  That wouldn't change anything regarding
the validity or no of any human religion in the OTU.  We don't have any
lizard-man gods, do we? ; )  The Ancients don't seem the type to play Vorlon,
either, IMO.

The OTU, like many RPGs, doesn't touch on religion because it's impossible not
to get someones panties tied in a knot.  Religious people will be antagonized
if their religion is put in a negative light (much less have their beliefs
mocked) and the anti-religious will be antagonized if any religion is put in a
good (or validating) light, therefore, it's mute on the subject.  There will
be alot of people (including the purely areligious) in between, somewhere in
the middle.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:26:23 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

In a message dated 12/1/98 2:22:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< Frank, please refrains. Some people here just might take their religious
beliefs 
 rather seriously and we **REALLY** don't need any more flamewars.
 
 I will not respond any further and I would exhort everybody to show
restraint.
  >>

	I agree.  We need to pour water on this at once.

	DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:25:21 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Fast courier services

Hans Rancke-Madsen said:

>You are wrong. Regular mail services by ship were common long before the
>Napoleonic Wars (I can't say how much before because I don't know the
>exact details) and fortunes were made by people who got advance notice of
>commercial developments.


We don't even need to go back really all too far. In the late 80s or so,
with the advent of cheap and efficient competition the mail service (at
least here in America) changed considerably.

Currently we have the federal run mail service, cheap, relatively efficient
and good if you don't need your delivery to get there in time. We also have
two independent companies, UPS and Federal Express that send mail and
packages much faster.

There is no reason to believe that the Xboat network is the only option.
People would pay for faster service, and they would pay whatever the market
could bear.

The way I envision it (and my beliefs are usually at least slightly
non-canon) there are other alternatives on a subsector-wide basis, a
sector-wide basis, and possibly a domain-wide basis as well.

Just because canon doesn't mention it doesn't mean that it can't happen.

(Hans, this isn't really directed to you, these are just general comments on
the whole thread up to now)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:43:20 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stellar Diameter

In a message dated 12/1/98 2:31:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time, Carlos.Alos-
Ferrer@univie.ac.at writes:
> 	Worst table I have seen in years, and probably the only problem 
>  which I have found with G:S so far (otherwise, I recommend to have 
>  it around). In this table, almost all Radii are "0.0," because data 
>  is with only one digit precision. Totally useless for Traveller 
>  purposes (100D question).

Yes.  Even worse is the way in which the table ignores sub-classes
completely (that is, there's an entry for G-v class stars, but no clue
as to how the various parameters scale from G0v down to G9v).  Ouch.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:55:21 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

Tue, 01 Dec 1998 19:49:27, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>Even better.   I get info that is six weeks old and you get info
>>that is only four weeks old, but you also have to pay and twice
>>the commission that I pay.  I would take that one.

>Cool. Commissions on stock exchange transactions are about 0.3% in
>Australia, so you pay KCr 3 per megacredit, and I pay KCR 6.

Well, commisions in the US are higher.  Now even that may not
phase you and that is typical of the reaction one gets.
The usual response from those who hear all these tales of
making killings in the stock market is that you can make
a lot of money by trading fast and often on the latest news.
The reality is that very few people make a lot of money at
this.  Most long term  investors know that the commisions
add up in this approach and buy and hold is the best strategy.

>>>Now, come the first takeover bid, minerals strike, war, change of line at
>>>court, change of personell at court, I am going to take you to the cleaners.
>>
>>Not when those who are already on planet have already scooped up
>>the sitations.  The fact is that the invetible delay means that
>>some of the approaches we are used to in modern society won't
>>work.  Now I'm not saying there won't be some situations where
>>timely info won't be useful, but is there enough volume to
>>support an X=boat level jump-6 service?  That is debatable.

>Volume ? Maybe.

>But who gives a damn if the only thing the courier tells you is 'Bre-X was
>revealed as a scam. Sell'.

The guy who is wondering if he should set up an X-boat network
cares.  What you describe is a justification for the guy
paying the fastest ship you can find to carry a message.
Not for having an entire network of ships
running around in case such a message comes along.

>>There were dedicated messengers.  There were not such systems for
>>routine communications.  If you had to pay off to a bank in florence
>>you didn't use the equivalent of a jump-6 courier.  You used the
>>equivalent of regular mail.

>Lets see. Braudel, Meditteranean in the time of Philip II.
>
>Page 356 'I am waiting for the regular Flanders mail to go past at any
>hour' (Chantonnay to Phillip II, 21 December 1561)

>page 357 'During the 1550s the King of Portugal's ambassadors at Rome often
>sent their letters by way of Antwerp. This was because the length of the
>journey depended less on the distance travelled than on the quality and
>frequency of the mails'

Neither of these have any indication of speed.

>Page 359. 'The fastest speeds in Europe <in the 1520s> were probably
>reached by the couriers working for the postal services organised by
>Gabriel de Tassis on the Italy-Brussels route, via the Tyrol; this was a
>route carefully planned, halts were kept to a minimum'

A good route without wasting too much time.  Not having the
fastest ships available making calls to every port on a routine
basis.  The former is much like the X-boat network as described.
The later would be more like a jump-6 network.

>page 365 : 'At the beginning of the sixteenth century the tariff between
>Venice and Nuremburg varied according to the time taken : four days, 58
>florins ; four days and six hours, 50 ; five days, 48 ; six days, 25'
>(cross reference to p458 ... a civil law professor at the University of
>Padua earned 600 florins a year in 1506)

Compared to what?

>But I think the last word in this debate belongs to the Prudent King  ...
>'It is more important that the letters should travel by a safe route than
>that four or five days be gained, except on occasions where speed is
>essential.' (margin note by Phillip II on letter from B. de Mendoza, 28
>November 1587).

I agree.  It shows that in a society not set up on fast communications
(such as ours is) that saving every last bit of time is not essential
for most communications.

>>>Information is dense. Exteremly dense. You can put everything your customer
>>>in Dabei needs to know about commerce on Earth this week on a CD Rom.
>>
>>So?

>Let us assume that our PCs in the Express Courier charge Cr 100 000 per
>cubic meter to ship stuff at jump-6, and we can put 1000 such disks in a
>cubic meter.

>If the report is worth Cr 1000 (easy to do with a private news summary for
>an important person), then we need to fit 100 into a cubic meter to pay the
>tariff of a megacredit a dton.

I still don't see the point.  Nobody has ever argues that the
cost of putting data on a ship would make any differnce in
anything.  The questions is whether their is so much info
that can't stand an extra 33% to shipping time that it warrants
having jump-6 ships leaving every few days, to a week, from
every significant port.

>>>How many jump-6 200 dton Fleet Couriers can we buy for the cost of one 20
>>>000kt battlewagon ?
>>
>>I don't know.  It really doesn't matter.  Large organizations don't
>>waste money on things because something else cost a lot more.  The
>>US government doesn't waste money on cars it can't justify a need
>>for because a tank costs so much.

>'Need' is relative. The question the Vice-Admirals in charge of Procurement
>Policy Planning will be asking is 'Will a Fleet of 7 main units, supporting
>units and 6 Fleet Couriers be more effective than a Fleet of 6 main units,
>supporting units and 6 + n Fleet Couriers', where n is the relative cost of
>a main unit and a Fleet Courier. It's a lot less painful if your Fleet
>Couriers replace frigates, for example.

Exactly, and very few communications are going to make much a difference
to most naval communications if they take a little longer to get there.
Now there are almost certainly jump-6 couriers attached to fleets and
headquarters, but that is a long way from any network of jump-6
communications.

>>And how does this show the cost of the entire network would be "trivial"?
>
>Lets toss some reasonable numbers around.
[number deleted]
Well, aside from the fact that various assumptions could just a
reasonably put those number off by at least an order of magnitude...

>LSP(Spinward Marches) has therefore decides to commit 0.5% of annual
>revenues to their Internal Communications Improvement project.

Why are they willing to commit 0.5% of annual revenues.  This
the mistake that people make on this list over and over, assume
that some small fraction of a large organizations budget is
available for anything that sounds useful.

If LSP makes a 10% return on revenue, you are talking about
loosing 5% of their net profit for the year.  You better
believe they are going to do this only if they can justify
it as providing increased returns.

But even if it was only 0.005% of annual revenue, they won't
do it unless the returns justify it.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1221
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1222



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Repatriation Bonds
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: First Contact/Vilani Expertise Requested
G:T aliens-1 the remake
Re XBoats
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Fast courier services
[www][zine] Freelance Traveller Correct URL Reminder
re: Status of Forces Agreement (Was: Re: various stuff (german uboats))
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Re: Ararat class corvette
Re: G:T gearheadedness

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:13:59 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Repatriation Bonds

Walter Smith wrote:
> I'd see it as a very odd situation if a private mercenary company got a
> ride on _any_ Imperial Navy craft. The Imperium "tolerates" mercenaries,
> remember? 
> 
> I'm imagining the hell Imperial Marines on a battlecruiser would put
> the merc scum through if they did get a lift. <g>
> 
> There will, of course, be exceptions - the cruiser CO who's brother
> just happens to be a mercenary Colonel, or the odd case where the
> local Imperial representative finds it expedient to hire on some
> "auxiliaries".
> 

Or if the mercs are ex-Imperial Marines.

A general thought on mercs, though.  A lot of RW mercenaries are actually
in regular regiments, like the French Foreign Legion, the Papal Swiss
Guard, or the British Gurkhas.  No doubt there will be TU equivalents of
this.  If you want a non-faceless/generic Army regiment, make them
something like this.

Of course, there was a charming practice back in the 17th/18th century,
where minor states, particularly in Germany, would actually hire out units
from their regular army as mercenaries.  I'm not sure if the Hessians in
the American Revolution were in this category or not.  Anyway, you could
quite easily find bits of a planet's regular forces on some other world in
the TU.

Of course, the Imperium might not be too impressed, but such "regular"
mercs would potentially be better  disciplined and more controllable than
the riff-raff of freelance warlords.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:27:03 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

Look, people, could we bring this thread to an end soon.  If I have to keep
biting my tongue, it'll bleed...

Anyway, IMTU Spinward Marches, the Yaskoydrayan Church is pretty big.  

This really annoys the Droyne.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:19:12 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: First Contact/Vilani Expertise Requested

Cool.  I'm glad it was useful.

You found some references I missed - hardly surprising, given you've been
working at it seriously, while I just sat at my computer for five minutes! 
I might check the discrepancies you found myself...

Anyway, I hope your campaign is fun!

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

- ----------
> From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: RE: First Contact/Vilani Expertise Requested
> Date: Wednesday, 2 December 1998 0:46
> 
> Alan,
> 
> Thank you very much for your input.  I appreciate the  response.  As 
> I do not have much info on the Vilani culture, I have gone to the 
> most knowledgable source I know: the TML.
> 
> Here's the current version, adding in your input:
> 
> Ikugi/Barnard's Star is under the control of Sharurshid.  They've
> recently established a processing plant, probably starting around 
> 2087AD.  In 2093AD, the Hubble or its equivalent detects unusual 
> activity in the direction of Barnard's Star, after the EM 
> emissions from the increased traffic there have travelled the six 
> years to Earth.  President Inch is informed in private sessions, and 
> she initiates the Starleaper project.  The US NSA of the time period 
> sends a secret mission to Barnard's Star, with a telepath on board to 
> help facilitate First Contact communications.  Sharushid 
> representatives were thus contacted, and the US NSA officers had to 
> deal with the Vilani fears of psionics.  Arrangements were made 
> between the two for an official First Contact two years hence.  
> Sharushid's reason may center around a local executive's interests in 
> monopolizing the access to Terra's advanced engineering and medical 
> technology.  (Or maybe some executive has a secret interest in this 
> "psionic technology", and sees this as an opportunity to advance 
> himself.  Who knows.)  The US NSA is, of course, interested in 
> learning as much about the Vilani technology as possible, to advance 
> themselves within their particular niche as an intelligence agency.
> 
> [This interpretation of Trav History is based on the fact that 
> the MT ImpEnc reports Terrans travelled to Barnard's Star in 2094, 
> but First Contact happens at 2096.  Other canon sources claim that 
> the first trip to Barnard's Star also included First Contact, and 
> most often sites the 2096 date.  I saw the abnormality, and this was 
> my first thought on an explanation for it.  Fortunately, it has a lot 
> of "Conspiracy Theory" flavor, which my gamers seem to love, and 
> sounds like it would be fun to develop.]
> 
> >IYTU, of course.  Loren clearly expressed a different opinion in GT,
> >which suggests that canon will ultimately go against you.  Tough. 
> >There ain't no canon police.
> 
> I know that official canon is against me, but it sounded like an 
> interesting variant worth exploring.  However, I am trying to stay 
> within official canon for the "official historical account of the 
> Traveller Timeline."  My campaign simply explores some potential 
> motivations behind the official events surrounding First Contact, the 
> First Interstellar War, and the formation of the Terran 
> Confederation.
> 
> >> 4)  Shortly thereafter, Vilani and Terrans joined in several 
> >> joint-exploration missions, and this is where the Terrans learned 
> >> of the overwhelming size of the Vilani Imperium.  Was that common
> >> practice?  How was such established?  Did a representative of the
> >> provincial governor meet with Terran diplomats, or did the Terrans
> >> travel to the governor's seat to make these arrangements?
> >
> > Dunno.  I would tend to interpret the Vilani as being a bit reticent
> > about this kind of thing, but they might do it to check out the
> > Terrans.  IYTU decision.
> 
> While I agree that this situation does not fit the rest of the 
> Vilani's standard practices, canonical references do state that the 
> Terrans did join the Vilani on joint exploration missions.  Several 
> of the sources state that this is where the Terrans learn the full 
> scale of the First Imperium.  So my question to myself was "Why?"  I 
> again fall back to my initial Conspiracy Theory premise, and assume 
> that there are forces on both sides of the Terran and Vilani that 
> want to pursue a higher level of interaction with the other.  So much 
> so that they go against their normal operating procedures.  For 
> whatever reason, though, it happened, according to the OTU history.
> 
> > Mmmm.  IYTU, IYTU, IYTU.  "The secret societies manipulating Terrans
> > and Vilani toward undisclosed goals" bit isn't usually how Traveller
> > works IMHO.  That doesn't mean that secret societies don't exist, 
> > and are trying to do this, but big Illuminati stuff tends not to 
> > happen. Again IYTU.
> 
> Usually, the Traveller Universe keeps the role of grand conspiracies 
> as part of its background.  Examples include:  The Shattered Imperium 
> (the assassination of "Strephon" in MT), the AI Virus (Lucan's 
> folly), the Psionic Suppressions (an experiment in psychohistory gone 
> awry), the Hiver fascination with psychohistory/cultural 
> manipulation, and (admittedly a little weaker, but still a lot of 
> potential) the secret manipulations of Cleon in the founding of the 
> Third Imperium (including the secret meetings he had with the Vilani 
> in order to bring them in).  I sure others on this list could provide 
> more examples.
> 
> > RW conspiracies tend to leak after a while.  Or at last the ones we
> > find out about are the ones that leaked...
> 
> As the differences in various timeline references might indicate to a 
> historian paranoid enough to notice it and start asking himself 
> "Why?"  Basically, though, it's an excuse to turn some rifts in 
> canonical references into a good game.  I hope it works.  After all, 
> enjoying a good game is what it's all about, to me anyway.
> 
> Thanks, again, for your input.  Every little bit helps make my game 
> more enjoyable for both me and the gamers that grace my table.  I 
> still welcome any other input you or others might have regarding 
> either this post or the original one.
> 
> In Service,
> Jason
> ============================
> Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
> (512)458-7111 ext. 3375
> 
> Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 15:24:37 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: G:T aliens-1 the remake

At 09:00 AM 12/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Can anyone please update me on all the pertinent info of this release... IE
>the company. Anyone who has the book, as well as the earlier books on each
>alien race, please tell me what kind of info is in it? Any idea on how much
>they are asking for it?
>I was not following the thread, been busy with the kids and deleting a lot,
>sorry.
>Cathy
>-----Original Message-----
>From: StevenA201@aol.com <StevenA201@aol.com>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 12:11 AM
>Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
>
>
>>>Oh, and to my IRC gaming group(you know who you are), Vargr love
>>> good Rock and Roll! Or is that "Bark and Howl"?
>>
>>
>>IMTU, it's passe...  the latest thing is Punk Gvegh.  Can you see a Vargr,
>>clipped like a poodle, dyed pink and sporting a half-dozen safety
>ins?  --S
>>

The Zhodani are done in great detail from race creation (or kidnapping) to
present, the vargr also. I REALLY liked the write up, the history, the epic
grandure.

However. The three minor races (which were preveously presented in ICE's
Aliens and artifacts) are a one eye combative lizard race (a kind of green
popeye dude) and multi armed web speaking spider race and gas giant bunnies
(just kidding) gas giant race. (Hmm they could start charging for skimming!!)

I was disappointed in the fact that instead of new races we were given
converted races from another gaming source (Not even from traveller GASP). 


Personnally I seem to have expected more. They were well written. I did
enjoy seeing them. but...

Don't get me too wrong, but for $20 I expect to see at least one new race.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:23:58 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re XBoats

Hans writes:
>Peter Newman writes:
>
>>Is it possible that some of the reason why the Imperium was so shaky
>>during this period the fact that the elite (with Jump5 communications)
>>did not have enough lead time on the Jump4 communications the
>>"commoners" enjoyed to be able to control their society.
>
>The trouble with the X-boat network is not that it still exists, but that
>MT claims that (with the exception of the Emperor himself) the elite still
>uses it, thus NOT getting the advantage you're talking about.

No, not really. Only the really wealthy can afford even a small priority
network. Thnik about this: more than half of all US buisinesses rely on the
US mail (average delivery time, 3 days local, a week for inter
town/interstate).

FedEx is 20 times more expensive to use, as is overnight US post.

Priority mail is about 7 times mroe expensive, and is US post for "2-3 days"

A private network must generate enough long-distance high value or time
critical material to support the lowest cargo:drive ratio available. few
organizations will be able to afford the dedicated J-5 and J-6 nets
discussed. A few might conglomerate to create a "publically available" net
for special purposes, something like FedEx. IMTU, most "Crucial trade
information" is going to be within J-4 from point of origin to point of
use. Something a single courrier can handle for "Emergent" info....

Think on this, too: Jump-6 couriers, arriving daily... Well, by the
mechanics of Jump Exit, you could wind up with as much as 3 days with no
arrivals, and then have 3 arrive. Daily arrivals example:
1,1,1,0,3,0,1,1,0,1,1,1,1,2,0,1,0,3,0,1,1.... Assuming a single linkage, to
have one in and one out, you need 10 (3 days recovery time and thus a 10
day schedule... leaving 6-8 in jump at any given time, each way) Each way,
plus spares, per link! A "Daily" x-mail system needs about 10 per link each
direction. A twice weekly needs about 4. IMTU, it's 6 per link, 3 each
way... roughly every 3 days. J-6 X-boats will also be significantly more
expensive than J4.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:aramis@gci.net> Note: All other E-mail addresses for me expire by
the end of november 1998!
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
UTUP 0309 6-7779577-5-5-2
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:32:15 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

In a message dated 12/1/98 11:22:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
wmacdude@concentric.net writes:

<< Anyone have any ideas what the main or dominant religions of the other
 Major races would look like?
 
  >>

I would think that anything Vilani would be based around food/ancients/their
incompatibility with their environment...

I would think the Aslan religion(s) would be bi-theistic (male and female
gods), and based on honor...

Vargr is anything goes... (though canon mentions a church...I can't remember
it)

K'kree is nicely covered in GT...

Droyne...Hmm... Ancestor worship (especially grandfather)?

Hiver...I don't know; maybe god as the great six armed manipulator?

Zhodani... hmm...god is the great Psionisist, or the other extreme, would the
thought police condone religion, or maybe only the "proper" one (ie the nobles
find a safe religion for the proles while they are either non religious or
maybe are involved in something honoring Droyne)?

Lastly; as pertains to the great pro-anti religion flamewar....how about
Atheism and/or rationalism evolving into a religion. I have seen theories that
modern Psychology is being treated as a psuedo-religion by some shrinks (it's
concepts becoming dogma...)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:51:22 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:36:14 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>I can be worth money, but is it worth the money to routinely get info 33%
>>quicker?

>That depends on what you mean by routinely. It won't give you a fixed dayly
>profit, if that's what you mean. But every so often it will allow you to
>make a large profit or avoid a large loss.

Yeah, but the occaison chance to make a big killing won't support
and X-boat kind of system.  It will support hiring a ship on
a one time basis to carry the message.

>Apart from the examples that Steven and Ian has provided

Which I think support my postion, as I have mentioned in other posts.

>, history shows us
>one more situation where a few hours can mean a huge difference: When you
>are buying and selling luxury goods. Take the annual tea races in the
>previous century for example. The clipper that got into harbor (or
>harbour ;-) first each year got the best prices. That was so valuable that
>they built huge ships dedicated specifically to this one purpose.

Again, they had a fast ship dedicated to that one need.  They
didn't build those ships in a such numbers that they were
visiting all significant ports on a routine basis (if they did,
those ships wouldt be special).

>>Similarly, were there networks of horse couriers and fast ships just to
>>carry messages in the Renaissance? Sure some traders had such ships, but
>>there weren't ships at every port for just such messages
>
>Nor do any of us propose that there would be a network that connected all
>Imperial planets. Just the 3-400 most important ones...

Connecting the 3-400 most important worlds is the same as connecting
all signifcant ports.  Connecting every world would be like
connecting every city, town, villiage, and hamlet.

>>Yes, there are a number of things you could do if you were willing skip
>>intermediate stops even with jump-4.  And  doesn't involve having two
>>differennt kinds of ships.

>Better yet, why not do both? Have some boats that skip intermediate stops
>and some that don't? Why should it be either or?

Well, if you want to say the X-boat network should have been set
up with different routes, I will not gainsay you (I make no
commitment either way).  But the idea that there _must_ be system
of jump-6 ships parralelling the x-boat network I don't buy at all.

>>>So you pick up the messages the X-boat from the important world dropped off
>>>a few days ago. They will still get almost anywhere faster than by X-boat
>>>alone.

>>The delay will be a week or two, that will mean that will be no
>>savings until past 12-24 parsecs.

>How do you figure that? The messages go by X-boat until it reach a courier
>node where it is picked up. So you don't lose any time there.

And who long does it have to wait at that node?  The point is
that any scheme has to have service that is frequent otherwise
a lot of the time savings is lost.

>>>>There may be J-6 couriers between the Capital and Mora.

>Not according to canon, which state that all message traffic goes by X-boat.
>Which is the problem I have in the first place, not with the existence of
>the X-boats per se.

Well, I will agree that _all_ messages going by X-boats is
a bit much.  There will always be a specialized market that
a few jump-6 ships can tap into (for example, hang out
at Regina and jump to Mora as soon as the results of the
the bid on naval contracts is announced).  I can see
this being a side activity that doesn't much impact the
general distribution of news.

>>Why send their routine messages by a slow alternative?  Because it's
>>cheaper...

>Not if they send priority messages by jump-6 courier. As Ian pointed out,
>information is VERY dense (It'll BLOW you densitometer!!! ;-). Sending
>100,000 Terabytes is no more expensive than sending 1.

That assumes there is a jump-6 courier that just happens to be
going your way.  That means frequent jump-6 service on all the
places where you are saying it will replace jump-4 service.
Furthermore, if a more expensive ship it going to take the
message, they will either have to charge _everyone_ more to
take the message, or find some way of singling out only those
who wouldn't pay more and giving them a discount (a tricky
proposition at best).

Will all the traffic along that route be willing to pay more for a
33% decrease in transit time?  Are messages that need the
increased speed freqent enough to justify the service?
That is debatable.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:54:09 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fast courier services

In a message dated 12/1/98 1:30:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, semo@pil.net
writes:

<< Currently we have the federal run mail service, cheap, relatively efficient
 and good if you don't need your delivery to get there in time. We also have
 two independent companies, UPS and Federal Express that send mail and
 packages much faster. >>

As an aside, I have noticed that USPS has gotten much better in the last
couple of years since UPS and Fed Ex started giving them some real
competition.

OB Trav: I bet that the commercial courier services are gving the Imperial X
boat links a lot of pressure (hence the jump 6 thread...)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:10:32 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [www][zine] Freelance Traveller Correct URL Reminder

The current and correct URL for Freelance Traveller is
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller.

A recent AltaVista search revealed that many web sites containing
Traveller material have links to Freelance Traveller or its
predecessor, the RICE Archives, at locations that no longer
exist.  The Editor of Freelance Traveller has no reason to
believe that the AltaVista search was exhaustive.  Many
webmasters have been mailed directly; this message is intended
for those whose web sites were not found by my AltaVista search,
or for those whose web sites provided no email address to be
reached directly.

If your website refers to any of the following URLs, or to any
document in a subdirectory of any of the following URLs, please
update your link to point to http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller/.

The URLs that are no longer valid are:

http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller/

http://www.tightbeam.com/FreelanceTraveller/

http://www.execnet.com/~jeffz/traveler.html
http://www.execnet.com/~jeffz/traveler/
http://www.execnet.com/~jeffz/

http://www1.execnet.com/~jeffz/traveler.html
http://www1.execnet.com/~jeffz/traveler/
http://www1.execnet.com/~jeffz/

http://voyager.execnet.com/~jeffz/traveler.html
http://voyager.execnet.com/~jeffz/traveler/
http://voyager.execnet.com/~jeffz/

Note that any of the Execnet URLs may also appear without the
tilde (e.g., http://voyager.execnet.com/jeffz/); they are equally
invalid in that form.

I thank you all for your support of Freelance Traveller in the
past, and for your hoped-for continued support in the future.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
freetrav@hotmail.com
freetrav@my-dejanews.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:23:04 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Status of Forces Agreement (Was: Re: various stuff (german uboats))

Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net> wrote:

>It's called a Status of Forces Agreement, a standard treaty with US forward
>deployed countries. I believe the precident for the agreement is similar to
>the aggreement regarding diplomats and local laws. I'll guarantee the
>soldiers in question didn't get away with what they did once the Uniform
>Code of Military Justice got hold of them, especially if there was a
>significant breach of conduct to conciter (significant property damage, etc).

I suspected that was the case, but it's the kind of thing that the tabloid
press here in the UK tends to forget.

>This same SoFA does allow for turning the soldiers over to civilian
>authorities in cases of Capital offenses. We were warned sternly about this
>in Japan.
>
>On topic: Imperial forces on member worlds/client states would or would not
>be subject to local civil/criminal law?

I would suspect that the Imperium would reserve the right to try any
Imperial forces, if only to emphasise their jurisdiction. I suspect that
they may have a buried option to hand the forces over to civilian
(planetary) justice though in certain areas.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:01:41 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:41:15 -0600, Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
>> Which is a GDP of 15.000 credits per head. I think this is increadibly high.
>> Where does this number come from? (I guess this is a canon number)

>It's reasonable.
[justification of reasonableness]

The problem is that there are also a wide range of other values
for this (and related numbers) that are also reasonable.  One
of the problems here has been that people run through numbers
that are "reasonable" to prove the something in the background
has to be a certain way (piracy can exist, X-boats have to
be jump-6, etc.).  However, this only proves that is it "reasonable"
if things were that way (ie they "could" be that way).  Not that
another way is unreasonable.  Put a lot of faith in "analyses"
but most I've seen very few that didn't rely on estimations of
numbers that couldn't give another conclusion with another
set of "reasonable" numbers.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:09:05 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:00:22 -0500, "Catherine Tannenbaum" <cat@perkworks.com>
>Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

>Can anyone please update me on all the pertinent info of this release... IE
>the company. Anyone who has the book, as well as the earlier books on each
>alien race, please tell me what kind of info is in it? Any idea on how much
>they are asking for it?
>I was not following the thread, been busy with the kids and deleting a lot,
>sorry.

I'm not 100% clear on what you want to know but I'll give it a shot.
The book is (I think) $20.95.  It is the first book on Alien
Races for GURPS Traveller and it is by Steve Jackson Games
(who puts out GURPS Traveller, the Traveller background using
GURPS game mechanics).  It covers the Vargr and Zhodani and
three(?) minor alien races.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:14:35
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Ararat class corvette

>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
>Subject: Ararat class corvette (very long...sorry)

Whats the megajoulage, RoF and range of the weapons ???

The sensors dont appear that impressive - they are almost civilian grade.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:09:59
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: G:T gearheadedness

>From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
>Subject: Re: Comments on G:T Decafreighter
>
>****************
>These are encuraged by the number of low tech, small starport woulds in the
>Imperium.  IMO the interface suttles are only available at A, B and some C
>starports. if you don't stick to those ports, the benifit you gain buy not
>chosing streamlined is countered by having to carry your own shuttles.
>

An interface shuttle is about 4 megacredits, once you start to use
contragravity.

I find it very hard to believe that any world that engages in interstellar
trade couldnt afford the equivalent of a couple of aluminium dingies to
take cargo from ship to shore.

Heck, for a different sort of campaign, pick some dirtball (Beck's World in
Regina subsector looks good), and have the PCs issued with a brand-shiny
new Imperial Warrant authorising them to take over the management of the
starport facility. Give em a slightly used, IN-surplus Gig, a collection of
sidearms, and one-way tickets to Becks World.

>Anyway, a mostly smooth sphere or cylinder should be capable of making
>planetfall with contragravity, as long as you didnt leave too many bits
>sticking out.
>**************
>They can, but have no landing gear, so you would have to land on water
>(most ships will float.)

Great. So 300 blokes with shovels can build us a minimum starport, or you
park just outside a seaport.

Seaports are better, becuase they should already have warehouses, ferries,
tugs, rail links and so on.

>Considered, and filed under 'Famile Spofulam Built Me'. It is FS, so it has
>a Honking Big Particle Accelerator. The ship is meant to intimidate the
>crap out of ethically challenged civilians. If they are forced to stay at
>long range, then our odds of surviving long enough for the cavalry to
>arrive are improved.
>************
>True, I was neglecting that it is a FS design......how about a spinal mount
>instead?

Look, we figure 20 or 30 megacredits should be enough to bribe the
Subsector Admiral to issue the appropriate paperwork for the Baby PAW.
Leeeeeegals are working on how much it would cost to get a licence for a
full-sized PAW ... and Oberlindes have a more law abiding rep than FS does.

>Well hopefully this will be fixed in GT trade and commerce.  My suggestion
>for it is 4,000 for a middle passage and two per stateroom.

Thats better, in that it's KCr 4 net per 4 dtons of stateroom. If we
arrange for the dumping of the KCr 2 'life support charge' off a bridge in
Jersey, we can make interstellar travel even more affordable. As it should be.

>Sandcasters can also be used in the point defense role vs missiles.

This was considered, but the Decafreighter is assumed to have missile
parity against anything.

>20dtons of cargo space earns KCr 40 revenue per month. This will support a
>couple of megacredits in extra sticker cost. Plus you can have express
>cargo already in the ship's boat, ready for the first trip down.
>***************
>
>Hrm
>40 - 21 (Boat Bay for a gig) + 6 (Cargo in the Gig) - 3 (thrusters for the
>gig and extra cargo) = 22 dtons = 44KCr month if running full.
>
>the gig and thrusters run 5.97 MCr with a payment of 25KCr / month
>
>Looks viable to me.
>

Yep. Even better if you rip half the gig's t-plates and replace them with a
contragravity unit for atmospheric work and a nose-mounted laser.

>Personally, I believe that you should be able to load the LHyd equivalent
>of 44 gallon drums of AvGas onto your gig at the downport, and then
>transfer them back off the gig and into the tanks. It's a bitch of a job,
>but it strikes me as doable (the airport at Currie on King Island used 44
>gallon drums of avgas to refuel the light planes that landed on the
>island).
>************
>But do they do that for the tramp freighters that dock at the port?  or a
>better example, does the freighter send a launch in to pick up the drums
>and take them out to refuel the freighter?
>

Well, if the boat is based on the ground, the ship gets to carry 18 dtons
more cargo, which means there is more potential profit on the route.

A lot of trust is needed, as the freighter captain is relying on the
groundpounders for her resupply of fuel.

>the unstreamlined ships have this already. what they don't have is landing
>gear and they can not do a balistic reentry. so where another ship would
>have a half hor or so trip it would have several hours and would have to
>worry much more about atmospheric conditions.  When it reached the surface,
>it would have to find some water to land in (most ships can float).

Not a problem, comrade. Da, I land most anything, once.

But seriously, G:T needs partial streamlining. I dont have Gurps:Vehicles,
but the p155 sidebar in G:T states 'Streamlined hulls used the lifting body
and "very good" streamlining features'. What happens if we dump the lifting
body, and take the streamlining features down to "poor" or "average" ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1222
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 1 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1223



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT Docking costs
Re: G:T gearheadedness
Re: Fast courier services
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: GT Khushdakaa class light freighter
Re: Space Religion (on topic)
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Re: Ararat class corvette 
Re: Jump 1 ships on 2parsec trips
Re: Space Religion (on topic)
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Jump 1 ships on 2parsec trips
Vailidity of the Canon Trading Model (was Re: Fast Courier Services)
Iron Borders
Re: [OT] Re: Thanksgiving=?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=28USA=29=0D?=

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:04:37 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT Docking costs

> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:18:41 -0500
> From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
> Subject: GT Docking costs
> 
> The standard docking fees are set at 100 Cr/dton per week.
> 
> how about adding some short term fees
...... 
> any thoughts on the cost of warehouse space?
> 

Check out:

http://www.io.com/GURPSnet/Archive/Rules/ship.expenses

for some research I did for the GT playtest.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:14:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: G:T gearheadedness

Ian or Katts writes:
 
> But seriously, G:T needs partial streamlining. I dont have Gurps:Vehicles,
> but the p155 sidebar in G:T states 'Streamlined hulls used the lifting body
> and "very good" streamlining features'. What happens if we dump the lifting
> body, and take the streamlining features down to "poor" or "average" ?

Well, the real effect of streamlining in G:T is to prevent you from
disintegrating due to vibration while traveling in atmosphere at supersonic
speeds, and you need very good or better streamlining to do this -- thus, the
streamlining is sufficient for aerobraking or atmospheric skimming.  If you're
willing to come to a stop and float down you don't need _any_ streamlining.  Of
course, this is true in standard traveller as well, despite canon arguments to
the contrary.  There's absolutely no reason for most unstreamlined ships in
traveller to be unable to enter atmosphere, atmosphere just isn't all that
dangerous.  A vehicle with the minimum hull permitted on a traveller spaceship
(what, AV 20 isn't it?), of minimum size for a jump ship, with a density of,
say, 0.25 tons/m^3 (350 tons), in the middle of large tornado (250 mph winds)
is unlikely to be detectably damaged, and if landed, won't be moved (though if
poorly situated, it might be knocked over, and it will be a pain to fly, though
doable if it has enough thrust to pick itself up).  Your average traveller ship
is capable of withstanding midsized artillery -- streamlining really isn't all
that important.  The only things remotely subject to damage are any systems
located outside of armor (i.e. electronics and sensors), and atmospheric
hardening realistically should modify the cost and weight of your electronics,
_not_ your hull.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:27:05 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Fast courier services

Sethkimmel said:


>OB Trav: I bet that the commercial courier services are gving the Imperial
X
>boat links a lot of pressure (hence the jump 6 thread...)


I don't doubt it. I'm sure that there'd be a market for it. Jump-6 ships
aren't all that much more expensive than Jump-4 ships. Extra fuel costs are
a joke. What this means is that the Xboat system would be slow to upgrade to
meet any competition.

Worlds along major population routes would most likely be visited by
independent Jump-6 couriers on a regular basis. I don't see these networks
being too large though...  A J-6 network would lose its speed advantage over
too great of a distance.

The advantages would shine in subsector or sectorwide traffic, however.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:41:55 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:18:16 -0800, dberry@hooked.net

>At 11:59 AM 12/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>...
>>>Since the Vargr lack humaniti's highly mobile lips, they have an entirely
>>>different dynamic when it comes to eating.
>>
>>  What? Using their fingers is too good for them?
>
>Try drinking from a glass while holding your lips rigid.

Well, not matter how they drink, they can hold the bowl
up to their mouths.  Nor do I know of any canon that
says their lips are that rigid (they can talk and speak
human languages after all).  I personally think that
treating Vargr as "intellegent dogs" is a mistake.

A number of us argued against this in playtest, but either
we didn't prevail or the art didn't reflect it.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:41:29 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

David P. Summers said:

>Yeah, but the occaison chance to make a big killing won't support
>and X-boat kind of system.  It will support hiring a ship on
>a one time basis to carry the message.


Actually, most major real world corporations have a mixture of long term and
short term investments. Although the emphasis is on long term investments,
short term investments can really pay off.

In the Imperium, we're probably talking about stock trading on subsector
wide and sector wide levels. Every extra hour would count. As far as I know,
canon is silent on the stock markets of the Imperium.

For Delgado's stock traders, it could be very useful to find out that
Makhidkarun has announced a major new product line even just hours or days
before the news hits the local markets. That way, they can buy up 20
MegaShares of Makhidkarun stock while it's still cheap. On the flip side,
the same traders would be happy to find out that the product line has failed
even hours before the effects are felt in the market. This way, they could
unload the same 20 MegaShares before the market goes bananas.

Especially if that branch of Delgado needs capital for a new toy line and
needs it quickly...

Just because individual traders might not gain too much doesn't mean that
megacorporate traders wouldn't.  Most of the money traded on the stock
market would be megacorporate money, and they would stand to lose or gain
much more money and they'd be able to finance internal networks. Since the
networks would already exist, selling space on their J-6 courier ships'
databanks would be extra profit.

Keep in mind that I think traffic between say, Core and Daibei would go by
either Xboats or single couriers, but I think active networks would be
common on a smaller scale...

Just my 2 cents.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:05:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Khushdakaa class light freighter

Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com writes:
>
> Good Idea, Same ship, converted to GT.

> Purchase Price: 13.6MCr (with a 20% volume discount)

Note: the volume discount _does not apply_ to GURPS traveller, it is already
included in standard vehicles.  Vehicles which are not constructed in volume
are double cost.

Note 2: there are some sub-optimal parts to how GT does module design -- for
example, you have redundant power production (manuever and jump) and it's not
clear that you really _need_ vector thrust.  Also, realistically you probably
still want at least two crew (pilot/navigator and engineer/gunner, for
example).

If you want to be really efficient, break the power plant out from the drives,
and don't include enough power to run both simultaneously; this gives us:
2 units unpowered J-drive (6 tons, 1.5 spaces, 20 megawatts, 6 MCr)
8 units(400T) unpowered manuever drive (30 tons, 8 spaces, 40 MW, 1.2 MCr)
1 unit power plant (4 tons, 1 space, 40 MW output, .4 MCr).
This is 10.5 spaces, 40 tons and 7.6 MCr; the parts it replace were 12 spaces,
42 tons, and 7.8 MCr -- saving us .2 MCr, 2 tons, and giving an additional 1.5
spaces for cargo (total 44+3 in turret).  Total 16.75 MCr.

For the true cash-squeezers, CG is (including power) 3.5 tons, 1 space, .6 MCr
per 5,000 tons.  Thus, we can drop half our manuever drive and power plant
(saving 4.5 spaces, 17 tons and .8 MCr) and put in a 1,000 ton CG unit (.7
tons, .12 MCr, .2 spaces) -- rounding volumes up, we reduce cost by .68 MCr (to
16.07 MCr) and get 4 more spaces for cargo (48+3 in turret).  Half a G is
plenty for travelling out to the jump limit, and the CG unit actually increases
our load limit.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 19:57:08 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Space Religion (on topic)

>Is there a religion in the Traveller
>Universe that worships "Grandfather"?  Or were the ancients created?  Is
>there a power behind them?  Are there Millerites?

"Church of the Chosen Ones" is a Vargr sect that believes that GrandFather
will come back for them. There a sort of Superiorists sect who look at the
Unchosen as beneith them.

IMTU that I am finishing out, the Ancients weren't the first space farers
(haven't decided if they were second yet or not). They also weren't the
first to pull races from Terra, the "first ones" <***ducking to avoid
flames from B5 haters***> rescued a Trans Repto-Mamillian semi humanoid
species, the G'Hal from the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs and
transported them to a sector about 20 sectors from the Imperium. This race
does not worship this race, nor do they conciter them superior once they
themselves developed jump drive (in conjunction with the humans that were
later placed there by another group of ancient space farers (Droyns? I
haven't decided)). Neither the humans or the G'Hal hold to any superior
"beings", just generally the greater power of the universe itself (I'd
guess you conciter them somewhat agnostic).

IMHO, one advantage of avoiding modern religeons in campaigns, and in SF
writing of any kind, is the ability to look at modern issues outside the
religeous dogma that create them. (Note: My hat off to JMS for doing this
well)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 20:06:19 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

At 12:18 PM 12/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>At 11:59 AM 12/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>...
>>>Since the Vargr lack humaniti's highly mobile lips, they have an entirely
>>>different dynamic when it comes to eating.
>>
>>  What? Using their fingers is too good for them?
>
>Try drinking from a glass while holding your lips rigid.
>
I can do it... with a straw.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:42:01 EST
From: Slick1483@aol.com
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

unsubscribe slick1483@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:35:07 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Ararat class corvette 

Whats the megajoulage, RoF and range of the weapons ???
The sensors dont appear that impressive - they are almost civilian grade.
Ian Whitchurch


>Usual comment: throw in more LIDARs. LIDARs are the main combat sensor;
>having only one makes one pretty vulnerable to damage.
>
>The lasers are awfully short-ranged for TL-14 - fewer bigger turrets (or
>eating som eof the cargo space) seems like a big step forward.
>
>Bruce

Ian, and Bruce.

To answer your replies at the same time. I used the standard Hvy Laser and
Lt. Spinal mount from Andy Akin's spead sheet. If you have an unaltered
vesion of that then those are the number (V.3+). I'm a small time gearhead,
I only build what I want for my games and really don't worry too much over
the weapons, since I've never really played any of the Traveller ship to
ship combat systems. I've played at them but they are usually to slow paced
to interject into a role-playing session, and we use a totally different
system for table top gaming, Star Fleet Wars, Star Fleet Battles (rarely),
and we're dabbling with Full Thrust. I design Traveller ships more with the
thought of having something to build deckplans around than from a point of
veiw of how the would stand up in TCS or Highguard, etc.

As I said on TWG recently, the only complaint I have with any of the
technical manuals (FFS, FFS2, etc.) is that they do not contain (nor does
any of the other books) a system to translate the "real world science" into
game terms, so I just plug in a suitable number of the stock weapons.

Perhaps you serious Grognard types could use the rules to generate a series
of GOOD weapons for those of us that really don't want to?!! Kind of use the
FFS books the way I think they were meant for? Say a group of weapons
suitable to be mounted on Free Traders, Lt. Mil. Ships, Hvy Mil Ships etc.
in a table type format?

Anyway, as for adding in more than one LIDAR, the thought really never
occured to me to do so, but I can see the logic once it's been pointed out.

I always just assumed there was one LIDAR and all of the weapons
workstations worked off of information fed to them by it! Say, there's
another area that could be explored, a monograph on "What
Constitutes GOOD Sensors" for various grade ships, civilian, Lt. Mil., etc?

I've dl'ed you sensor rules Bruce, and started to read them on a number of
occations but they are far more technical reading than I really like to do
outside of work, so I keep drifting away before I finish. I will try to get
through them, promise! But how about a simple set of tasks and modifier
tables to add to a role-playing situation.

All of this is not to sound un appriciative of your comments, in fact
exactly the opposite. You guys are among the top gearheads on the list and I
appriciate the comments! I'd just like a primer to help those like me learn
to "plug and play" the RIGHT components.

Mike Peters, Letterworks@CITnet.com
webpage:"Jump Point" http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's
sake. The great affair is to move."
Robert Louis Stevenson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:05:10 -0500
From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
Subject: Re: Jump 1 ships on 2parsec trips

> >Isn't possible to, in order to reach a 2-parsec away star, make a
> >jump 1 to the middle of nowere and then make another one to the star?
> 
That depends on afew things.  The problem with this idea is that you
need fuel to make the jumps, and most ships will only carry enough fuel
for one jump. After that one jump, you need to refuel if you expect to
get back in a reasonable amount of time.  That's the reason that Rifts
are such a deterrant to travel;  there's no gas giants there to mine
from, no imperial naval bases to purchase fuel from.  That leaves you
basically stranded.
 
If you *do* have a ship with enough fuel to make two jumps without
refueling, this enables you to get past the empty space that is soo much
of the univerise.  If there is a gas giant in the other system, that is.
You need some method to get back home, and a Gas Giant is the only way
that you have available;  if the system was explored and settled, you'd
beable to get fuel there but it's not.  Without there being a gas
giant in the star system you were jumping too, you'd need *four* units
of fuel if you wanted to get home.

Now, I imagine that most of the Vilani ships carried two fuel parsecs
worth of fuel, just so they could get back home if there wasn't a gas
giant in the system they arrived in.  Or hell, if there weren't
*planets* in the system they arrived in.  However, fuel for four parsecs
would be abit too much for a society that's just recently reached the
stars.  So, for most purposes, worlds off the mains were off limits.



- -- 
Brandon,

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:49:10 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Space Religion (on topic)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: Space Religion (on topic)


>>Is there a religion in the Traveller
>>Universe that worships "Grandfather"?  Or were the ancients created?  Is
>>there a power behind them?  Are there Millerites?
>
>"Church of the Chosen Ones" is a Vargr sect that believes that GrandFather
>will come back for them. There a sort of Superiorists sect who look at the
>Unchosen as beneith them.
>
>IMTU that I am finishing out, the Ancients weren't the first space farers
>(haven't decided if they were second yet or not).
<snipped>

You know I wonder that no-one said this before. I've been toying with the
idea that Grandfather lied! I mean we have his word that he wiped out his
children after getting pissed that they were ignoreing him, then build his
pocket universe so that he could have a little privacy to do his research.

What if he lied?

- - What if the children were wiped out by "Someone or thing else" and
Grandfather build his hole and pulled it in after him to hide? Might explain
his quickness to destroy the ship that carried the humans into his PU.

- - Likewise, what if some of the kids did escape, and are licking their
wounds somewhere, waiting to find Granddaddy'shiding spot?

- - Or are waiting for their "weapons", the Big Six, to mature enough to go
after him.

- - Or maybe, the Big Six are Granddaddy's defenses?

- - Or his weapons against "Someone or thing else"?

Hummm, who said that the Ancients lost their kick when their secret was
revealed way back?

P.S. This has been a message from Templar Free Radio Terra, fighting to
bring freedom of speech back tothe universe. We shall continue to send these
message until... WHAT!! Busting down the doors?!! Quick grab the tapes, get
the pap...BLIZZART!!....

Fellow sapients please disregard the ramblings of this poor misguided foo..
er, patient. We have re-instated his medications and he will be a good boy
from now on!

Mike Peters, Letterworks@CITnet.com
webpage:"Jump Point" http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's
sake. The great affair is to move."
Robert Louis Stevenson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:58:17 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

At 06:56 PM 01/12/98 +1300, you wrote:
>>---Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net> wrote:
>>Just out of curiousity, what passage of scripture
>>(Koran/Talmud/Bible)contradicts current scientific facts with
>>reference to space travel?
>
>
>>Not trolling, here.  Certainly there is much in the history of the
>OTU
>>that would do so, but no scientific fact invalidates the Abrahamic
>>covenant or those built on it.  As a matter of fact, I think that a
>>very interesting universe could be built using prophesy.
>
>
>Actually _many_ scientific facts contradict this stuff, such as the
>actual age of the universe, the actual age of the planet, just about
>all facts about genetics, etc, etc.
>But that's only if you're stupid enought to take such books
>literally.
>Unfortunately it's the nature of those who are religious to tend
>toward stupidity

        Now *THAT* is trolling...  I'll refer ou to a few of A.Eienstien's
more famous quotes, and you may decide him to be stupid.
        There is no requirement to be offensive in this nature to anyone.
There are some people who are far from "stupid" who value thier Faith
greatly.  Learn some manners, please.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:28:43 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:
>But that's only if you're stupid enought to take such books
>literally.
>Unfortunately it's the nature of those who are religious to tend
>toward stupidity

Was that _intended_ as a personal insult?

>
>>Always looking for something to serve: a king, a flag, a god,
>pleasure, drugs, money, >science, knowledge, nature.  You name it,
>man will find a way to idolize it.
>
>Speak for yourself. I "serve" no-one and idolize nothing.

Hm. Pure reason? Rationality? Your fellow man? Your family? Your country?
The common good?  The fatherless boy you take to ball games?

>
><snip>
>> There is no period of human history, no
>>matter how "enlightened" the culture, that is free of idol worship.
>
>That's largely because we're such a young species and have only
>recently started generating people able to function without the
>crutch of religion.

Find a good book on the history of religion. There were philosophers who
didn't believe in any form of divinity over two millenia ago. Our cultural
memory is quite long...
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:29:12 -0500
From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
Subject: Re: Jump 1 ships on 2parsec trips

> In GURPS Traveller, I recall seeing something that says that there
> needs to be a planetary (or larger) mass to trigger coming out of
> jumpspace.

        I didn't read that (nor do I think it should be read) as meaning
that a planetary mass HAS to be there to come out of jump.  Afterall, if
that was true then the Spinward Marches would have been Virus Bait in
the New Era. (the Domain of Deneb was warned by people using secret fuel
caches in the Great Rift.  I doubt the caches were planet sized)

        Rather, that means that you automatically come out of jump if
you get too close to a planet.  You don't HAVE to be too close to a
planet to come out of jump.



- -- 
Brandon,

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:41:03 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Vailidity of the Canon Trading Model (was Re: Fast Courier Services)

At 11:23 AM 01/12/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Yes but then you buy a ship to travel between to systems. If you have
interests 
>in 200 systems, then you need 200 ships to pull this example of. Now even 
>with a jump-6 system you can only compete with the systems that are close
>by you, so all systems between you and the system where the news originated
>and is outside your subsector has the information before you and can act
>accordingly. This indicate to me that it must be better to dispate a 
>trusted aid to the system instead than run things from the HQ. 
>
>I really think that buisness in the Imperium will be very different from
>how it is on Earth today, I from what I've read so far here, nobody (including
>me :-) has taken the time to sit down and go through every aspect of trade
>and business in the Imperium, given the canon setting. I mean, how do
>one do business when info takes a month to get to you. Or two months. Why do
>people risk their money on such endevors, when it is safer to do buisness
>on you home world? Is interstellar trade, (except for the free trader model)
>even possible?
>
>Tommy Grav
>-------------------------------------------------------------

        Hi, Tommy!
        I personally don't think you could get a megacorp to exist the way
they are described in canon.  As described by Ian Whitchurch, the return
rates should be small in any TU on corporate earnings.  That makes risk
factors on off-world development even more "chasmic" for megacorps, because
there are a lot of things that could erode that margin.  Major corporations
only spend risk money on reasonably sure returns.  Or if the return is big
enough that one "good" job will pay for two "bad" and leave a margin.
        Further, how do you hold shareholder meetings?  It's all be proxy
vote.  System-wide companies, sure, that I believe.  Companies with
independant operations under the same name on several worlds, sure
(franchise model).  Centrally administered multi-sector conglomerates?  How?
        Again, I think the Roman Empire model is the most accurate....  The
local administrator is the local Power, and as long as the Taxes/ Profits/
what-have-you keep flowing back on a *yearly* basis to HQ/ Capital/ Head
Office then The Honchos don't send in some tactical Muscle to investigate.
The local administrator has got a goon squad/ security force/ garrison just
in case someone debates the power of his pen.
        The administrator gets directives back from The Honchoes on a *big
scale*.  "For the next year, this is what we need.  Over 3 years, we need to
see this.  In 5 years we will be positioning ourselves thusly.  In 10 years
we will be evaluating these areas."  He picks out the pieces important to
getting his next promotion and works on them.
        That's how I see it.  The comms lag is just too brutal, even with
Jp6 comms, to function well at any tigher level of management.  
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:41:03 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Iron Borders

At 11:23 AM 01/12/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Is the debate on military couriors or a freely avaible J6 mail network?
>Has anybody really done any extencive work on have fleet warfare in the
>Imperium will work? How do you defend your borders, when the enemy has the
>ability to jump 5 hexes behind your border hex?
>
>Say you have a Zho battleship standing on the hex outside the Imperial
>Border. This is not known to the Imperials. It is a J6, maximum suicide
>battleship, designed to do as much havoc as possible before it is killed.
>It jumps 6 hexes into the Imperium. How big a chance is it that this
>system has a standing force? Say it enters the system close to a gas giant
>and skims fuel. The defender of the system is unable to destroy the attacker
>and prepares to dispatch couriers. Where does it send these? If the Zho now
>jumps another 5-6 hexes into the imperium, he might actually get there 
>before any couriers. He can then refuel and jump again. How do you track him 
>done? How do you prevent this from happening in the first place? 
>
>Tommy Grav
>-------------------------------------------------------------

        Hi, Tommy!
        Really, you get into the Trek concept of a "Neutral Zone" or the
RealWorld(tm) concept of a DMZ.  When you lay down The Line on the star
chart that deliniates "Them/ Us", you base the NZ/DMZ width on maximum jump
for when it was drawn up.  So, in our FFW border, you'd want a NZ/DMZ *at
least* 12 parsecs wide; ie, 2jp6.  Crossing that is a serious logistics
issue...  tanker support, etc.  Worlds in the DMZ/NZ are autonomous and
*loaded* with operatives from each side's espionage services, listening for
any hint of something *big* pulling in to port or the local Gas Giant.  And
these systems would be armed camps, anyway, a la Switzerland and Israel, to
keep from getting used as a doormat for someone's invasion fleet.

        A good rule of thumb is that an NZ/DMZ really needs to be 2.5x
maximum possible jump for the TL the NZ/DMZ is established.  15 parsecs even
rules out most accidental crossings of the NZ/DMZ by misjump.  This also
makes for situations where "old" borders are more vunerable/ incident prone,
since when the border was negotiated, mayber Max Jump was only *3* (NZ is ~7
parsecs), and now MJ is *6*.

        As to hunting down a marauder, you use the same concept of ops for
killing subs.  You say "I know he was HERE at TIME.  His maximum speed is
THIS.  I now have a circle that he must be inside;  what is most and next
most important in that circle.  Defend those HEAVILY.  Use all other assets
to search the rest of the circle to regain contact (establish a "datum"
point), so I can recenter my circle."

        The other thing you need is "Border Interceptors" capable of Max
Jump stationed at every world within Max Jump of the border.  Small
(1500dton), fast, ranged, and mean (a PAWs or a missle bay, big USP) with
lots of screens and armor.  Single function craft;  move out from a datum
point in all directions of other systems within range to tip off the local
forces that there is a marauder and to reestablish the datum.  Also, *harass
the shit* out of the marauder and slow them down.

        Lastly, you need for the Other Governments to understand that this
is the sort of thing that leads to you rolling across the NZ/DMZ with
everything you can forward deploy with the intention of scrapping every ship
repair facility and convoy you encounter.  "Eye for an eye, plus the head
for good measure."
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:57:17 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Thanksgiving=?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=28USA=29=0D?=

TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:
>> I'll grant that a majority of authors have been American, and probably a
>> majority of readers as well, but there's a difference between a book
>being
>> read by a nationality and a book being written for a nationality.
>
>You're right, you're reading too much into my phrasing.  That's not what I
>said (or believe).  Just that the US was the primary consumer base for
>Traveller.  This is true w/ G:T (any metric translations yet?) and will
>probably do so for T5.

Good. Blame it on too many grade ten essays - after a while even small
mistakes and ambiguities leap out at me. I don't think that there's any
quesion that the USA is the primary consumer base, especially for GT. (And
Loren has said that English versions won't be in metric, so I'll have to
brush up on my French...)

>
>> After all, just look at the number of translations there are. Look at
>the
>> excellent work coming out of England, Norway, Finland, and Australia to
>> name a few countries with active Traveller writers. What about BITS,
>which
>> for a while was the _only_ active licensed Traveller publisher.
>
>Err...  Haven't seen much of it.  Maybe BtC & some of T4 (though i haven't
>looked at more than 4 of its titles).  Haven't seen a BITS 101 book or
>anything (and I am quite interested in a couple of them... please get US
>distribution...).

Why not order BITS work from Britain?  The postage is reasonably cheap if
you're buying a bunch, and International Money Orders can be purchased at
any bank or post office.

You should also look at Signal GK (a British fanzine - professional
writing, amateur art, xerox printing).  Phil MacGregor's Dark Star
electronic magazine is also very good.  Roger Myrhe did a lot of work on
the Vargr extents, but I'm misplaced his address and can't find it this
week.

>
>> 1) What purely local events get celebrated over larger areas, and why?
>Did
>> some Sylean patriot/bigot (depending on your viewpoint) in the Office of
>> Calendar Compliance seed the Imperial calendar with Sylean holidays?
>
>Probably not much beyond the Sylean cultural region, though they would've
>tried mightly in the early days (especially Pacification Campaigns) IMO.
>YTUMV.
>Would a Darmine (or Solomani or Vilani or Geonee, etc etc) get irked at
>seeing
>a reference to a Sylean holiday on an xboat carried forum on a product
>that
>was primarily aimed at the Sylean market?  

Some probably would. Some wouldn't care. 

Up here in the Great White, we tend to get a lot of ads aimed at the US
market, many for products that aren't available up here. Irritating when
the offer is only valid in the US (leading me to wonder why they advertise
the product in a Canadian edition of a magazine).  Imagine trying to buy a
101 book, and being told by Dom that BITS policy was not to sell overseas,
even when you were willing to pay extra...

Holidays could be another contentious issue. Try celebrating Canada Day in
Quebec City... or Remembrance Day in Japan.

>
>> 2) Does anyone else keep track of local years as well as Imperial years?
>
>The Solomani were still on the Gregorian calendar to the Collapse, it
>seems.
>The Vilani might've gone to the Sylean (Imperial) calendar, though Vilani
>supremacists would maintain the Ziru Sirka's.  And of course, NE looks to
>replace Imperial Year in the New Era, though it's just a take off from the
>Imperial calendar in year 1201.

I was thinking more of planetary years, although your point is well taken. 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1223
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 2 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1224



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT Docking costs
Re: Iron Borders
Re: Manned Orbital Sensors
Re: GT: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11
Re: various
Vailidity of the Canon Trading Model
Re XBoats
Re: Ararat class corvette (very long...sorry)
Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection - Update
Re: Validity of the Canon Trading Model
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Re: Jump-6 courier network I
Re: Jump-6 courier network II

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:08:33 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: GT Docking costs

At 11:18 AM 25/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>The standard docking fees are set at 100 Cr/dton per week.
>
>how about adding some short term fees
>
>say 25 Cr/dton per day
>
>or 5 Cr/dton per hour
>
>so a free trader pays:
>20KCr/week
>5KCr/Day
>1KCr/hour
>
>While a 20 ton Gig (like from Ian's unstreamlined trader) would pay a tenth
>of that, but would need to rent warehouse space as well.
>
>any thoughts on the cost of warehouse space?
>

        Not sure, but it *should* tie into the TL and Level of the Starport
(more/ less security, better/ worse internal building condtions,  existant/
all taken space, etc)
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:08:43 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Iron Borders

>At 11:23 AM 01/12/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>Is the debate on military couriors or a freely avaible J6 mail network?
>>Has anybody really done any extencive work on have fleet warfare in the
>>Imperium will work? How do you defend your borders, when the enemy has the
>>ability to jump 5 hexes behind your border hex?
>>
>>Say you have a Zho battleship standing on the hex outside the Imperial
>>Border. This is not known to the Imperials. It is a J6, maximum suicide
>>battleship, designed to do as much havoc as possible before it is killed.
>>It jumps 6 hexes into the Imperium. How big a chance is it that this
>>system has a standing force? Say it enters the system close to a gas giant
>>and skims fuel. The defender of the system is unable to destroy the
attacker
>>and prepares to dispatch couriers. Where does it send these? If the Zho
now
>>jumps another 5-6 hexes into the imperium, he might actually get there
>>before any couriers. He can then refuel and jump again. How do you track
him
>>done? How do you prevent this from happening in the first place?
>>
I look at it like the TNE anti-virus zone used in the Regaince(?). Strong
fleet from the border in at lest 6 Hexs and garrison fleets for the
interior. This is just the basic of it, I've got more details in my
traveller files

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:16:15 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Manned Orbital Sensors

At 02:29 PM 25/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Orbital Sensor Platform for planets without a highport, This unit pfrovides
>good scan coverage of the space around a planet.  It is capable of
>detecting unstealthed ships out to 10,000,000 miles away (Free Trader, -9
>to skill)
>
>
{Design Snipped for Brev}
        Question...  any way to scrap the staterooms, life support, et al
and have the array relaying data to a ground-based monitoring center...
"Space Traffic Control", or "STAR-RAD"?


>If you want to relate this to the piracy debate, a 400 dton TL 10 ship with
>Basic stealth and EM:
>no mods at 4 hexes, with a max detection possible at 150 hexes.
>
>the jump limit for a standard planet is 80 hexes, at this range the
>hypotheical pirate is -8 to detect.
>
>if we assume an operator skill of 12 that is a 4 or less to detect. or
>1.85% per turn this give a 49% chance of detection after 36 hours. not real
>good for the pirate, but not impossible odds either.
>
>a ship of the same size with military stealth would be impossible to detect
>at this range. (unless you switch to higer TL sensors)
>
>On of these, a pair of launches to service it and 16 light fighters cost
>less than 100MCr.  If a world has any resonable population (say 10,000,000
>cits with taxes of 1Cr year to maintain this) it should have at least this
>much in the way of defenses.
>
        You could even forgo the fighters and opt for something like the
Star Lance missile I posted;  how many hexes in G:T does 100g's cover?  Silo
based weapons with the kind of mean-streak I discussed about the Star Lance
are most likely better than fighters...  they can "get there" faster than
the fighter, for starters.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:22:47 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: GT: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11

At 12:23 PM 25/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:14:24 -0400
>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11
>High Guard Desgin for my "TNEC" Traveller game...  Biggest animal currently
>in the UN Deep Space Navy's inventory.
>        O/________________________________________
>        o\
>        County-Class Strike Carrier   Type CS
>        TL 11.  1200 tons.
>
>        The ship has 12 turrets. There are 12 beam lasers mounted in 4
>turrets organized in 2 batteries.  There are 8 plasma guns mounted in 4
>turrets organized in 2 batteries.  There are 12 missile racks mounted in 4
>turrets organized into 1 battery.  For defense it has 12 sand-casters
>mounted in 4 turrets organized into 2 batteries and an agility of 1.  There
>is a 40-ton magazine and are 20% of missiles normally carried are nuclear
>weapons.
>**************
>12 or 16 turrets?

        Error...  hull upgraded to 1550Dtons, with 15 turrets.

>
>        There are 30 ship's vehicles.  The ship carries three squadrons of
>Typhoon-class "Standard-III" multi-role fighters.  Two squadrons of
>Typhoons
>are armed with single pulse lasers, while the third is armed with triple
>missile racks.
>**********
>10 dton fighters?
>
        Yep...  the 10-ton bittys out of the CT book, actually.

>        The County-Class Strike Carrier requires a crew of 80.  10 Command
>section, 2 Engineers, 7 Gunners and 61 Flight section are required.
>        The fighter crews operates the fighter compliment.
>        The ship costs MCr709.20, including architects fees and takes 48
>months to build.  The first was built in 2097, with a production run of 24
>of these ships scheduled between 2097 and 2105.  The lead ship was the
>UN-DSN Dover, and has been assigned to the Spinward areas of the
>established
>Terran Sphere.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:45:03
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: various

>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
>Subject: Re: Ararat class corvette 
>
>To answer your replies at the same time. I used the standard Hvy Laser and
>Lt. Spinal mount from Andy Akin's spead sheet. 

*macho mode on*

I dont use Andy Atkin's Spreadsheet. I use pen and paper, and a calculator
if I'm feeling wimpy (unless Josiebub has 'borrowed' Daddy's calculator).

*macho mode off*

>If you have an unaltered
>vesion of that then those are the number (V.3+). I'm a small time gearhead,
>I only build what I want for my games and really don't worry too much over
>the weapons, since I've never really played any of the Traveller ship to
>ship combat systems. I've played at them but they are usually to slow paced
>to interject into a role-playing session, and we use a totally different
>system for table top gaming, Star Fleet Wars, Star Fleet Battles (rarely),
>and we're dabbling with Full Thrust. I design Traveller ships more with the
>thought of having something to build deckplans around than from a point of
>veiw of how the would stand up in TCS or Highguard, etc.

Fair enough.

*Thinks*

Lasers of 400 MJ and over are Phaser-1s. 250-400 MJ are P-2s, less than 250
P-3s.

Meson guns are Hellbores, obviously. PAWs are disrupters, CPAWs are Photon
Torpedos.

Missiles are drone racks.

Every 100 MW of power plant output gets you a engine box.

>
>As I said on TWG recently, the only complaint I have with any of the
>technical manuals (FFS, FFS2, etc.) is that they do not contain (nor does
>any of the other books) a system to translate the "real world science" into
>game terms, so I just plug in a suitable number of the stock weapons.
>
>Perhaps you serious Grognard types could use the rules to generate a series
>of GOOD weapons for those of us that really don't want to?!! Kind of use the
>FFS books the way I think they were meant for? Say a group of weapons
>suitable to be mounted on Free Traders, Lt. Mil. Ships, Hvy Mil Ships etc.
>in a table type format?

Yeah. The idea of 'Uncle Hengie's Catalog' has been kicking around in my
head for a while. Build them as modules, for plugging into a QSDS/SSDS or
G:T type system.

Put in some rules about Imperial Regulations.

>
>Anyway, as for adding in more than one LIDAR, the thought really never
>occured to me to do so, but I can see the logic once it's been pointed out.
>
>I always just assumed there was one LIDAR and all of the weapons
>workstations worked off of information fed to them by it! Say, there's
>another area that could be explored, a monograph on "What
>Constitutes GOOD Sensors" for various grade ships, civilian, Lt. Mil., etc?

If it costs less than a hundred megacredits, it's civilian.

>
>All of this is not to sound un appriciative of your comments, in fact
>exactly the opposite. You guys are among the top gearheads on the list and I
>appriciate the comments! I'd just like a primer to help those like me learn
>to "plug and play" the RIGHT components.

Thank you. I'll try and work on 'Uncle Hengie's Back Catalog'.

>
>From: Brandon Quina <lore@tmgbbs.com>
>Subject: Re: Jump 1 ships on 2parsec trips
>
>> In GURPS Traveller, I recall seeing something that says that there
>> needs to be a planetary (or larger) mass to trigger coming out of
>> jumpspace.
>
>        I didn't read that (nor do I think it should be read) as meaning
>that a planetary mass HAS to be there to come out of jump.  Afterall, if
>that was true then the Spinward Marches would have been Virus Bait in
>the New Era. (the Domain of Deneb was warned by people using secret fuel
>caches in the Great Rift.  I doubt the caches were planet sized)
>
>        Rather, that means that you automatically come out of jump if
>you get too close to a planet.  You don't HAVE to be too close to a
>planet to come out of jump.

This has been debated a bit, and it is more than possible that there are in
fact rogue planet-sized bodies in the Rifts, and the secret trans-rift fuel
caches are based on this.

Alternativly, you use a big 2xjump-3 trader carrying a small jump-6 courier.

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Vailidity of the Canon Trading Model (was Re: Fast Courier Services)
>
>        I personally don't think you could get a megacorp to exist the way
>they are described in canon.  As described by Ian Whitchurch, the return
>rates should be small in any TU on corporate earnings.  That makes risk
>factors on off-world development even more "chasmic" for megacorps, because
>there are a lot of things that could erode that margin.  Major corporations
>only spend risk money on reasonably sure returns.  Or if the return is big
>enough that one "good" job will pay for two "bad" and leave a margin.

*grin* Once again, Michel, I disagree with almost everything you say :)

I believe that megacorporations would dominate precisely because of the
risk factors. Megacorps have functionally unlimited reserves ... as long as
they want to do it, they can.

Of course, this is not to say they would want to do everything, but they
could do almost anything they wished to do - they have the ability to pick
and choose from a platter of risks, in a way smaller corporations cannot.

Now, if something goes bad (say, twenty billion credits invested in the
re-industrialisation of Ruie), there are concequences. But it would take
many, many things going bad before a magacorp goes under. Far fewer things
than to send a company based on a single system under.

>        Further, how do you hold shareholder meetings?  It's all be proxy
>vote.  System-wide companies, sure, that I believe.  Companies with
>independant operations under the same name on several worlds, sure
>(franchise model).  Centrally administered multi-sector conglomerates?  How?

How did Jakob Fugger or the Medicis hold shareholders meetings ? How did
the British East India company govern it's Factors from Whitehall (cf the
corruption trial of Warren Hastings in the House of Commons) ? How did the
Dutch East Indies Company work ?

>        Again, I think the Roman Empire model is the most accurate....  The
>local administrator is the local Power, and as long as the Taxes/ Profits/
>what-have-you keep flowing back on a *yearly* basis to HQ/ Capital/ Head
>Office then The Honchos don't send in some tactical Muscle to investigate.
>The local administrator has got a goon squad/ security force/ garrison just
>in case someone debates the power of his pen.

Yup. The other thing to remember is that semi-autonomous branches of the
same company can quarrel. Dynamit-Nobel was cursed in the early 20th
century by vicious competition between their South African and South
American subsiduaries.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:08:24 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Vailidity of the Canon Trading Model

>>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>>Subject: Vailidity of the Canon Trading Model (was Re: Fast Courier Services)
>>
>>        I personally don't think you could get a megacorp to exist the way
>>they are described in canon.  As described by Ian Whitchurch, the return
>>rates should be small in any TU on corporate earnings.  That makes risk
>>factors on off-world development even more "chasmic" for megacorps, because
>>there are a lot of things that could erode that margin.  Major corporations
>>only spend risk money on reasonably sure returns.  Or if the return is big
>>enough that one "good" job will pay for two "bad" and leave a margin.
>
>*grin* Once again, Michel, I disagree with almost everything you say :)
>

        Hi, Ian!
        Well, at least I am performing a useful function... =)
        I don't profess to have all the answers, just all the opinons... ;-)

>I believe that megacorporations would dominate precisely because of the
>risk factors. Megacorps have functionally unlimited reserves ... as long as
>they want to do it, they can.
>
>Of course, this is not to say they would want to do everything, but they
>could do almost anything they wished to do - they have the ability to pick
>and choose from a platter of risks, in a way smaller corporations cannot.
>

        Thank-you.  You just cemented my whole problem with the Canon
arrangement right there...  How did they *get* to be Megacorps, if they only
things capable of "ignoring" the problems of operating on this scale *are*
megacorps?
        How brutally Darwinian is it?  At what TL, and thus jump and thus
comms rate, can you "grow" a Megacorp?
        Once you have the resources of a Megacorp to draw on, yes, only
Collosal bad luck or missmanagement will kill you.  In the meantime.....
And once the first Megacorp climbed the evolutionary ladder, why didn't it
EAT everything else threatening to become a Megacorp?
        Follow me now?  Or am I still missing something here?

>Now, if something goes bad (say, twenty billion credits invested in the
>re-industrialisation of Ruie), there are concequences. But it would take
>many, many things going bad before a magacorp goes under. Far fewer things
>than to send a company based on a single system under.
>
>>        Further, how do you hold shareholder meetings?  It's all be proxy
>>vote.  System-wide companies, sure, that I believe.  Companies with
>>independant operations under the same name on several worlds, sure
>>(franchise model).  Centrally administered multi-sector conglomerates?  How?
>
>How did Jakob Fugger or the Medicis hold shareholders meetings ? How did
>the British East India company govern it's Factors from Whitehall (cf the
>corruption trial of Warren Hastings in the House of Commons) ? How did the
>Dutch East Indies Company work ?

        Massive independance.  The local shop heard from head office once a
quarter and the local administrator figured it out as they went along.  And
head office prided themselves on what a great job they were doing running
thier forward operations, having never seen  the place =)

>>        Again, I think the Roman Empire model is the most accurate....  The
>>local administrator is the local Power, and as long as the Taxes/ Profits/
>>what-have-you keep flowing back on a *yearly* basis to HQ/ Capital/ Head
>>Office then The Honchos don't send in some tactical Muscle to investigate.
>>The local administrator has got a goon squad/ security force/ garrison just
>>in case someone debates the power of his pen.
>
>Yup. The other thing to remember is that semi-autonomous branches of the
>same company can quarrel. Dynamit-Nobel was cursed in the early 20th
>century by vicious competition between their South African and South
>American subsiduaries.

        Anything which interferes with an administrators odds of getting a
promotion or bonus shall be dealt with extreme prejudice.  =)
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:44:27 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re XBoats

>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
>Subject: Re XBoats
...
>No, not really. Only the really wealthy can afford even a small priority
>network. Thnik about this: more than half of all US buisinesses rely on the
>US mail (average delivery time, 3 days local, a week for inter
>town/interstate).

  Well, a J-5 system is actually cheaper than a J-4 one. J-6 is subject
to design systems and much more tenuous economic assumptions.

>A private network must generate enough long-distance high value or time
>critical material to support the lowest cargo:drive ratio available. few
>organizations will be able to afford the dedicated J-5 and J-6 nets
>discussed. A few might conglomerate to create a "publically available" net

  The economic equation is well put, although data density may make the
cargo capacity somewhat moot (i.e., if you have enough business to need
that much bulk storage then your economic problems are over).

  However, there are at least five effectively Imperium-wide lines (per B:7)
plus an assumed one sector-wide per sector. Each of these, in addition to all
of the other megacorps (and not even counting the various Imperial state
organs - IN/INI, Household, Army, Court, IMoJ, other bureaucracies) has more
than enough money to do so. That gives at least a half dozen good candidates
for establishing Imperium-wide sector capital-Capital links, and twenty-odd
for each individual sector in the absence of the larger version.

  In fact, _1%_ of the Imperial defense portion (1% of GDP) of the budget
of any of the Marches' Big Four (Mora, Trin, Glisten, Rhylanor) could buy
the couriers to build a system to connect every March sub-sector capital
and Capital to that one world. Ship maintenance would then be no more than
BCr 2.0/p.a, or less than a Cr 0.25 per capita. If the inhabitants didn't
like that then they probably don't like anything outside their system.

  Not that there's anything wrong with being isolationist :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:52:06 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Ararat class corvette (very long...sorry)

Michael D. Peters wrote:
> 
> Below is the write up of the ARARAT class corvette. It's one of the more
> common patrol vessels encountered in the boarder areas of the Solomani
> Confederation circa 5630 (Solomani) or 1112 Imperial. I used energy weapons
> exclusively since it's a long duration vessel (and I think tht the Solomani
> are still energy weapon prone). The deck plans for the ship are already
> started and I expect to have them complete and a package up on my web site
> in about a week. As always comments, criticisms, flames, posts about
> holidays etc. are welcome.
> 
> S.C.S.S. Katoomba SJ-204, Ararat class SJ Corevette (FF&S v2)
> Designed by Camelot Construction, New Aberdeen Ship Yards, Home
> 
<<snips USP description of ship>>

I also use Andrew Akins' Excel spreadsheet (version 3.2).  I did up a
replica of your design, and then optimized it as best I could.  Here are
some of my recommendations (if you like, I can e-mail you a .zip file
with my calculations):

BASIC STATISTICS

Carry your 20 troops as "extra troops", rather than as ship's troops. 
That saves you a couple of command positions (which saves you a couple
of bridge workstations).

ELECTRONICS

1.  Use the highest possible computer type.  That'll save you a couple
of crewmembers.

2.  Add a couple more laser comm units, another radio transceiver, and
boost the range of your radio to 1,000 AU (this will help you burn
through jamming, and enable you to talk to other planets in the system).

3.  Beef up the sensor suite.  As it stands, your PEMS has an effective
range of only 16,000,000 km, and your AEMS only 16,000 km.  To detect my
variant of your ship (advanced IR masking and a smaller power plant give
it a base IR signature of -0.5), you probably won't get a good detection
until about 5,000,000 km range.  OTOH, my variant, with a 14 rating
PEMS, can pick up a -0.5 IR sig ship at up to 50,000,000 km.  Lots more
room to maneuver.

4.  Add some ECM.  You can have a minimal ECM suite that takes up less
than 16 m^3.  You should be able to afford that much room.

5.  Add a level of stealth.  Make the enemy's AEMS work to find you.

6.  Use military or ultra black for your hull coating.  Costs more, but
it helps against those pesky LIDARs.

WEAPONRY

1.  Use the light laser turret, set for no buffer space, with X-ray
focal array, 68 discharge energy, ROF of 100, point defense ROF of 800,
and MFD present.  This gives you a smaller package, using less power,
with superior performance [(+5)1/2-2-2-2].  

2.  Reduce the default Light PAW to a tunnel length of 39.  This saves
you about 22 MW of power, with no USP degradation in performance.

PERFORMANCE

1.  Play around with the exact size of the drives.  I usually use three
digits after the decimal point.  Check your power needs often, and
reduce your power plant to fit.  You probably don't need more than 1g of
contra-grav performance (_big_ power drainer!).  Be willing to have a
couple of MW power shortfall.  Just check to ensure that you can run all
systems except fuel (or add batteries to make up the shortfall for a few
hours).

2.  Given the mission of this ship, I'd go with extended life support,
and at least 12 weeks of food.  (Unless you're serving Excellent quality
meals, use an ordinary galley.)

3.  Add enough emergency low berths to accommodate the crew.  Helps
morale.

4.  Replace the meson and damper screens with a pair of sandcasters. 
You can't mount enough of a meson screen on a ship of this size to block
most meson gun shots, and damper screens are useless against det-laser
missiles.  By using the light lasers above, you can probably shoot down
missiles before they get to you.  Sandcasters are a better bet against
the class of ship this corvette should expect to face.

I'll admit that my variant cost a lot more (MCr 1,216.66), but I think
it's worth it.

<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:07:47 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Keith "Lost Supplements" Collection - Update

++Good!  I plan to bequeath the one I already have (LoM) to a good friend
as a Christmas gift...  

- - Bill



At 06:34 AM 12/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
>At 11:47 PM 11/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Greetings,
>>
>>Did you receive my pre-order?  I sent it out late last week...
>
>Yep - got it, so you're all set. :)
>
>L8r,
>Paul
> 
Bill Rutherford

worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:10:43 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Validity of the Canon Trading Model

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
...
>        I personally don't think you could get a megacorp to exist the way
>they are described in canon.  As described by Ian Whitchurch, the return
>rates should be small in any TU on corporate earnings.  That makes risk
>factors on off-world development even more "chasmic" for megacorps, because
>there are a lot of things that could erode that margin.  Major corporations
>only spend risk money on reasonably sure returns.  Or if the return is big
>enough that one "good" job will pay for two "bad" and leave a margin.

  One possible explanation for the development of the mega-corps that I'm
sure fits into Mr. Whitchurch' model is that they developed in periods of
significant interstellar economic expansion. As such, the returns on such
investment would have made up for the increased risks, and only in an
environment where anything like explosive growth had stopped and "natural"
return rates been re-imposed would the resultant conglomerate accumulation
begin to look rather questionable.

  This has happened (roughly) before; IIRC it was more common during the `60's
and `70's, although we're seeing recurrent merger-mania nowadays (although now
it's mostly rationalizations instead of unrelated horizontal diversifications).

...
>(franchise model).  Centrally administered multi-sector conglomerates?  How?
...
>        That's how I see it.  The comms lag is just too brutal, even with
>Jp6 comms, to function well at any tigher level of management.

  How do they function? Poorly? It seems facetious, but there is the very
real possibility that many of the mega-corps are trying to do something
inappropriate
in the most efficient manner that they can devise. It certainly allows for a lot
of scenario possibilities without being impossible or even improbable. Gods know
it happens in the real world.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:29:08 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

At 11:59 AM 12/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>...
>>Since the Vargr lack humaniti's highly mobile lips, they have an entirely
>>different dynamic when it comes to eating.
>
>  What? Using their fingers is too good for them?
> 

Not so much in the handling of the food, I suspect, but in the getting it
into their mouths...


Bill Rutherford

worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:30:31 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network
...
>>Apart from the examples that Steven and Ian has provided
>
>Which I think support my postion, as I have mentioned in other posts.

  If the thesis of the recent post "Economics of potential courier routes"
(re Al Morai and the "trivial" expense of building a Marches-wide J-5+
courier system) tends that way perhaps you could explain how?

...
>>Nor do any of us propose that there would be a network that connected all
>>Imperial planets. Just the 3-400 most important ones...
>
>Connecting the 3-400 most important worlds is the same as connecting
>all signifcant ports.  Connecting every world would be like
>connecting every city, town, villiage, and hamlet.

  It may have that effect, but it only _costs_ as per the investment to
connect those few hundred systems; OTOH, it does access the revenue
potential of effectively 90%+ of the Imperium for world to world service.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:56:28 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network II

...
>commitment either way).  But the idea that there _must_ be system
>of jump-6 ships parralelling the x-boat network I don't buy at all.

  What if it can be shown to be a profitable business, and that to be
an obvious fact to the relevant inhabitants of the 3I?

...
>Well, I will agree that _all_ messages going by X-boats is
>a bit much.  There will always be a specialized market that
>a few jump-6 ships can tap into (for example, hang out
>at Regina and jump to Mora as soon as the results of the
>the bid on naval contracts is announced).  I can see
>this being a side activity that doesn't much impact the
>general distribution of news.

  You do realize that having J-6 ships to "hang out" at predesignated
nexi waiting for a charter (at a premium, but that's what it really is)
is almost certainly the most expensive way of setting this up?

  Also, in a diverse society and economy there's going to be more than
just the annual budget or big contract announcements - there's going
to be _something_ most days that someone (probably many someones, but
certainly enough economic demand) wants to know ASAP, and the "one
courier per big piece of news" is a near useless approach to supplying
express courier service in that regime.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1224
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 2 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1225



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump-6 courier network III
Traveller Code and stuff
Economics of potential courier routes II
Re: Megacorps
Re: Traveller Code and stuff
PE questions
Re: Ararat class corvette (very long...sorry)
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
GT Khushdakaa class light freighter

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:14:09 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network III

...
>Furthermore, if a more expensive ship it going to take the
>message, they will either have to charge _everyone_ more to
>take the message, or find some way of singling out only those
>who wouldn't pay more and giving them a discount (a tricky
>proposition at best).

  There's two ways at least of doing roughly that. One is to offer
the discounted service under terms that don't guarantee delivery
by the scheduled date (re UPS) - this would be possible if the data
required on a given trip took more "cargo" capacity than the ship
had, although that seems unlikely given data storage density. Another
is to provide faster service over long (out of sector) distances by
sending it with the "larger-than-minimum-for-J-6" hull that a _parcel_
service might send every month to clean up backlogs, bumps, and discount
services. There might also be passengers* running steerage along with
the Marches to Ilelish Economy parcels.

 * "Bad news, Tom; Travel cleared your trip, but the budget..."

>Will all the traffic along that route be willing to pay more for a
>33% decrease in transit time?  Are messages that need the
>increased speed freqent enough to justify the service?
>That is debatable.

  No and almost certainly yes, respectively. The economics are
being treated in detail elsewhere, but that involves calculations
using (questionable) GDW-provided figures.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:44:47 PST
From: "Roland Volz" <roland_volz@hotmail.com>
Subject: Traveller Code and stuff

/Lurk Mode=OFF

Hello, everyone.  I'm a long-time Traveller gamer who only recently 
joined the list.  I'm not much of a talker, only commenting on things I 
haven't heard anyone respond to.  Nevertheless, I wanted to comment on a 
few things:

1. In Traveller-digest V1998 #1222, William F. Hostman included the 
following after his post.  Pardon me for being a Geek Code (and 
variants) novice, but could someone please explain it to me or refer me 
to a lexicon?  Thanks.

>AIM:AKAramis
>IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- 
>kk+
>as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
>UTUP 0309 6-7779577-5-5-2
>ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

2. As far as the thread about higher jump xboat routes (and private 
sector courier service), I recall the first Traveller News Service 
segment I ever read was in JTAS issue 2, and it discussed the addition 
of L-Hyd drop tanks manufactured by (I believe) Tukera to expand the 
xboat routes to average jump-5.5.  Also, I remember a reference to the 
Imperiallines corporation and their fleet of jump-6 messanger ships.

3. In Traveller-digest V1998 #1223, I noticed this:
>From: Slick1483@aol.com
>Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
>
>unsubscribe slick1483@aol.com
I've seen the supplement and it isn't *that* bad!  Not enough to make me 
quit the Traveller list, anyway... ;)

Seriously, though, the new material from GURPS seems to be upholding the 
high quality standard that GDW established and Imperium Games maintained 
in the past.  This is encouraging for those of us who have played it for 
decades and weren't ready to see an excellent system fall to the 
wayside.

Roland

/Lurk Mode=ON

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:54:02 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Economics of potential courier routes II

  One way for an intra-sector J-5+ courier to ensure business would be
to offer some sort of bulk mail deal. For example, WidgetCo. (Glisten)
office has uplink use for their company e-mail, and a few hours before
the packet launches they have a compact media packaged up for the major
centers that they communicate with. Priority messages are billed at a
higher rate but are beamed for immediate dissemination.

  Two Jumps later the packet hands off the CD equivalent while refuelling
at Trin, while arranging for the beaming of any urgent commo. A day or two
later the CD is downloaded onto the WidgetCo. (Trin) system, where messages
are promptly ignored, etc., per SOP. Some will be 57th Century Dilbertisms
and the like, jokes, smut, and some may even be implemented..  ..correctly?

  OC, there may very well be a CD for WidgetCo. (Mora) and WidgetCo.
(Rhylanor), plus maybe an Express message to Regina advising WidgetCo.'s
counsel that the components in question could not possibly have contributed
to the catastrophic disassmbly of the Trimkhana-Brilliance, and that MCr 5
will immediately be drawn from WidgetCo. (Marches) accounts for relevant
industry journal agitprop.

  So the big question is how much will WidgetCo. (Glisten) and its'
compatriots pay for such a service? How many such customers are there
in a small market like the Marches, which only has a paltry 30-odd 
billion (3x10^10) TL F customers on those four worlds? Sadly, such a
service would require up to MCr 400 p.a. to make its' instigator a
future CEO (best case is half or quarter that, though).

  A case that Cr 0.01 annual per person that matters (i.e., TL F) is
too high a transaction cost would be worth reading.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 19:23:47
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Megacorps

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Re: Manned Orbital Sensors
>
>        You could even forgo the fighters and opt for something like the
>Star Lance missile I posted;  how many hexes in G:T does 100g's cover?  Silo
>based weapons with the kind of mean-streak I discussed about the Star Lance
>are most likely better than fighters...  they can "get there" faster than
>the fighter, for starters.

Michel,

The Star Lance missiles are probably illegal under all other Trav rules
systems, are meat for point defense weapons and, being nuclear tipped, are
vulnerable to nuke dampers. 

However, the general idea of using long-duration missiles as
rapid-deployment forces works.

>        Thank-you.  You just cemented my whole problem with the Canon
>arrangement right there...  How did they *get* to be Megacorps, if they only
>things capable of "ignoring" the problems of operating on this scale *are*
>megacorps?

Well, Makhadurin, Sharushiiid and Nasiirka have been around since before
the Ziru Sirkaa got set up.

The non-Vilani megacorps are more recent, but most of them got their start
during the Antebellum 'expansion' period of the Third Imperium.

Notable is the 'missing megacorp', Zhunatsu Corp, which was the personal
property of Cleon I, and a driving force behind the actual establishment of
the Imperium. There is no answer in Canon, but the guessing is it was
broken up during the replacement of Cleon the Mad, in exchange for Imperial
shares in all the other big corps.

>        How brutally Darwinian is it?  At what TL, and thus jump and thus
>comms rate, can you "grow" a Megacorp?
>        Once you have the resources of a Megacorp to draw on, yes, only
>Collosal bad luck or missmanagement will kill you.  In the meantime.....
>And once the first Megacorp climbed the evolutionary ladder, why didn't it
>EAT everything else threatening to become a Megacorp?
>        Follow me now?  Or am I still missing something here?

One of the critical events in the early Imperium was the agreement by the
Vilani to a 'strategic partnership' with the Syleans, which later turned
into integration of the Vilani cultural region into the 3I.

>        Massive independance.  The local shop heard from head office once a
>quarter and the local administrator figured it out as they went along.  And
>head office prided themselves on what a great job they were doing running
>thier forward operations, having never seen  the place =)

One thing I believe is that different companies structure themselves
differently. For example, LSP works on a Sector- and Subsector-based model,
while Delgado works by product lines ...

Now, let us assume that a friend of the PCs is having a problem with
Delgado, so they decide to go and have a quiet word with the local Delgado
VP. It'd be unfortunate if the heavy mob went in against the Delgado
(Armaments) veep, rather than Delgado (Fine Foods and Wine) ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:47:10 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller Code and stuff

>Seriously, though, the new material from GURPS seems to >be
upholding the high quality standard that GDW established >and
Imperium Games maintained in the past.

*choke*

"high standard"  and "Imperium Games"  in the same sentence
without a negation  ?

Sorry, the universe just stood still for a nanosecond.

And while I like the _content_, the production of the GURPS stuff
leaves a lot to be desired.,  though that's a standard complaint of
GURPS stuff. For the premium prices they charge (over $20 ) you'd
expect better.

Compare White Wolf or TSR productions,  full colour, better paper,
seem less likely to fall apart, generally better artwork, generally
cheaper....

I actually prefer the production on the old LBB's, better paper, and
the staple design lasts much better than the (is it "perfect-bound"
? ) GURPS style. My LBB's are still in good condition after twenty
years. I doubt "Behind the Claw" will  last two careful readings.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:56:26 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: PE questions

Okay, the preparations for my PE PBEM campaign are progressing faster than 
I expected. I have a few questions regarding PE which I would appreciate some 
feedback/opinions on:

1 - Use of Weapons of Mass destruction: Using these causes a loss of 
prestigue. Does this apply only to first use? (ie does retailation in kind also 
cause a loss of prestigue).

2 - Resources: There are several modifiers to the resource score for a planet 
based on it trade code and starport. Do these apply only to initial generation or 
when a planet reaches them (eg does a world's resource score increase when 
it builds an A class starport?).

Also, I _might_ (heavy emphasis on the might) be ready to start the campaign 
in a week or so, and would be open to "expressions of interest" from potential 
players.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:31:37 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Ararat class corvette (very long...sorry)

Michael D. Peters wrote:
> S.C.S.S. Katoomba SJ-204, Ararat class SJ Corevette (FF&S v2)
> Designed by Camelot Construction, New Aberdeen Ship Yards, Home

<<snips USP description of ship>>

a couple of quick suggestions:

>## Life Suppport

suggests a problem with column widths or something.

Weapons with a factor of 2-0-0-0...(LR)

should consider being short ranged (or normal). The beam pointer/MFD is
cheaper and you aren't using the extra range anyway.

Alternatively give the laser a bigger mirror - At TL14, a grav focussed
X-ray laser with a 10m mirror ought to be able to sustain its damage
level out to a billion km or so. (This is the usual recomendation of the
Postmark Design Bureau, Laser Communications Division :-)

AA's "standard Heavy Laser Turret" is:

Weapon Name	Heavy Laser Turret
	
Weapon Design          Now             Change to
Base TL                 12                    14
Focal Array Mount        0                     0         Turret
Focal Array Diameter     2.6                   3.6
Focal Array Length       0.2                   2
Focal Array Type         0                     1         X-ray
Discharge Energy       200                   250
Effective Range    169,000               360,000
Targeting Range          1                     0         Short (30kkm)
Focusing Type            1                     0         Non Grav
Crewstation present      1                     1
MFD Present              1                     1
Number of lasers         1                     2
Rate of fire           100                   100
Point Defence ROF        0                   800
Weapon Armor             0                   230
Buffer Space             0                     2         Standard 6sdt
Barbette
Battery Totals	
Unit Volume:           108.062                84.000
Unit Mass:             151.262               132.940
Unit Area:               6.760                16.000
Unit Power:             55.889                37.057
Unit Price:          MCr35.711             MCr10.669
Unit Crew:               1                     1

results in
USP    (+5) 1/4-4-4-4 [2,100/40-40-40-40] (SR /Ar:50 [230])
CUSP   (+1,+5) 14:10     PDR:+5

instead of
USP    (+4) 1/2-0-0-0 [1,100/20-10-5-2] (LR)
CUSP   (+1,+4) 14:8 12:6 11:5 9:3  PDR:+1


The turret now weighs more but needs less power (since the PD mode runs
off batteries) and is cheaper. It also needs less space, allowing it to
be fitted into a standard barbette.

Personally, I'd move the crewstation and MFD out of the turret, go back
to 1 laser, give it a higher power and standard ROF so that it fits into
a standard turret (3std, 42m3) and then have batteries of the things for
greater flexibility.


Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:43:05 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

At 12:37 01/12/1998 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
>>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>>Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services
>...
>>You could equip most worlds with enough 20kt SDBs to stop the Zho before
>>it can refuel (and incidently vapourise all pirates on sight. :-)
>
>  Doesn't that violate 3I game laws?

Undoubtedly :-)

>...
>>sooner or later they meet and the Zho finds out just what compromises
>>were required to make a J6 battleship at TL14.
>
>  Ouch (IAC, the Zho's only make J5 stuff, but J-6 capital ships are
>fairly pointless). Perhaps they save their limited J-6 construction 
>for couriers and explorers for the Core Expeditions?
>

IIRC the only way to leagally build a J6 ship at TL14 involves
using one of the LBB#2 drive/hull combinations.

But don't expect the result to carry a factor S meson gun :-)
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:01:40 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 19:49:27
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1212

page 365 : 'At the beginning of the sixteenth century the tariff between
Venice and Nuremburg varied according to the time taken : four days, 58
florins ; four days and six hours, 50 ; five days, 48 ; six days, 25'
(cross reference to p458 ... a civil law professor at the University of
Padua earned 600 florins a year in 1506)
***************
looks like lots of profit in there for someone....


>
>I don't know.  It really doesn't matter.  Large organizations don't
>waste money on things because something else cost a lot more.  The
>US government doesn't waste money on cars it can't justify a need
>for because a tank costs so much.
>
'Need' is relative. The question the Vice-Admirals in charge of Procurement
Policy Planning will be asking is 'Will a Fleet of 7 main units, supporting
units and 6 Fleet Couriers be more effective than a Fleet of 6 main units,
supporting units and 6 + n Fleet Couriers', where n is the relative cost of
a main unit and a Fleet Courier. It's a lot less painful if your Fleet
Couriers replace frigates, for example.
*************
Well using GT rules, a Jump 6, 6G 100 dt ship costs less than 43MCr while
the Zho Battle Cruiser I did for Aliens I (btw can anyone tell me what
ships made the cut there?) cost just over 14BCr each so you can trade in
one BC for 325 Couriers. I would say 20-40 per fleet.



>And how does this show the cost of the entire network would be "trivial"?


Now, Famile Spofulam has got at LSP's board and has convinced them for a
need of a series of Fast, jump-6 couriers connecting Mora, Trin, Glisten,
Rhylanor and Efate. The courier is the TL15 version of the Moonshine class
drug drug runner runner ^k^k^k^k^k^k^k^k^k^k Fast Extraction Vessel,
dropped to 5 gees using T-plates and taken up to jump-6 (FFS2 worksheet
available on application).
LSP(Spinward Marches) has therefore decides to commit 0.5% of annual
revenues to their Internal Communications Improvement project.
The ICI project thus has a projected budget of 20 billion credits. Per
annum. Plus anything they can earn by selling space on the side (one day
delay unless on the Emperor's Business, of course).
****************
assuming that these systems are all connected by jump 6.(no books at
work)and that you need 5 'links' then you will need 70 ships to have one
each way each day. call it 100 ships for backups, maintanance and special
runs to capitol.

cost: 4.3 BCr to buy the ships, 430MCr each year to keep the system
running.

Additional 'Links' cost 860MCr each to set up and 86MCr a year to maintain.

Note: these numbers do not take into account any bulk or standard discounts
for the ships.

IMO Megacorps will do this, but they and the Imperium itself will pressure
smaller companies (and PCs) out of business.  Small fast packets tend to
attract 'Pirates' if not owned by a megacorp :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:01:56 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:00:22 -0500
From: "Catherine Tannenbaum" <cat@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Aliens Vol-1 is here!
Can anyone please update me on all the pertinent info of this release... IE
the company.
**************
Steve Jackson Games: www.sjgames.com




 Anyone who has the book, as well as the earlier books on each
alien race,
***********
This is the first in a series of 4 Aliens books for GT.




please tell me what kind of info is in it?
*********
Zhodani, Vargr, and three minor races.




Any idea on how much
they are asking for it?
**************8
18-20, I don't really remember.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:01:45 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: GT Khushdakaa class light freighter

- ---------------------- Forwarded by Aerron Winsor/IAS on 12/01/98 09:52 AM
- ---------------------------


Aerron Winsor
11/25/98 09:17 AM

To:   traveller@mpgn.com
cc:
Subject:  GT Khushdakaa class light freighter

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:58:39 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Khushdakaa class light freighter
Here's the newest (and perhaps final) version of my Kushdakaa class light
freighter. The goal here was to design a ship that with very little
creative trading (read, speculative) this thing can perhaps turn a profit.
It does this by:
  * Being small enough to be operated by one or two individuals -
independent types a-la Han Solo. such independents would no doubt dispense
with formal salaries - relying purely on the profit margin.
  * Class discount of 20%...this hearkens back to the CT days, but I like
it, so I still use it IMTU.
  * Smallest possible drives - drives are by far the most expensive item on
a ship.
  * A small power shortfall - requiring creative power management but
lowering power plant cost.
  * Fuel purification so unrefined can be bought. Scooping allowed for teh
adventurous captain.
Comments and slams are encouraged
****************

Good Idea, Same ship, converted to GT.
=====================================================================
Khushdakaa class Light Frieghter (TL 10)
Crew: Pilot.
100 Space SL Hull, 100DR, Basic Bridge, Engineering, 10 Manuver, 2 Jump, 10
Fuel, SpaceDock (Holds 0.5, 1 Door), 2 Staterooms, Utility, Atmosphere
Processor, Turret, 42.5 cargo (+3 in turret).

Statistics:  EMass 150.025, LMass 380.925, Cost 16.9516MCr(Without
Discount), HP 15,000.

Performance: Accel 1.05 Gs, Jump 1, Air Speed 1666, Size Modifier +8.

Economic Profile (Yearly)
Purchase Price: 13.6MCr (with a 20% volume discount)
Down Payment: 2.72MCr
Expenses        Full Load    80% Load    50% Load
Ship's Payment  0.6800MCr    0.6800MCr   0.6800MCr
Maintenance     0.0136MCr    0.0136MCr   0.0136MCr
Fuel            0.0262MCr    0.0262MCr   0.0262MCr
Salaries        0.1584MCr    0.15,4MCr   0.1584MCr
Berthing        0.2500MCr    0.2500MCr   0.2500MCr
Subtotal        1.1282MCr    1.1282MCr   1.1282MCr
Income          Full Load    80% Load    50% Load
Middle Passage  0.40MCr       0.40MCr     0.40MCr
Freight         1.05MCr       0.83MCr     0.52MCr
Subtotal        1.45MCr       1.23MCr     0.92MCr
Profit/Loss     0.32MCr       0.10MCr    -0.21MCr
=====================================================================
Even better under GT.


Some small changes to the advert:  (only changes included)
The small size
also makes the Khushdakaa extremely affordable: with standard 20%
discounts (normal for mass produced designs) the ship costs less
than 14MCr.
Even though it is small and inexpensive, the Khushdakaa performs
admirably. Nearly forty-five percent of its volume is devoted to
cargo space (in the form of four 10.5 ton cargo bays and a single 0.5
ton luggage bay),

The single purification unit can purify the entire fuel supply
in under 2 hours.


- ---------------------- Forwarded by Aerron Winsor/IAS on 12/01/98 09:52 AM
- ---------------------------


Aerron Winsor
11/25/98 08:08 AM

To:   traveller@mpgn.com
cc:
Subject:  Re: GT: Ship Design Question

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:24:07 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: GT: Ship Design Question
Regarding laser components in the modules.

*************************
They have:
The laser with the extrme range and compact options.
Full Stabalization
A universal mount
A powercell holding one shot
Fusion power components for 1/60 shot.
- ---------------------- Forwarded by Aerron Winsor/IAS on 12/01/98 09:52 AM
- ---------------------------


Aerron Winsor
11/25/98 08:12 AM

To:   traveller@mpgn.com
cc:
Subject:  Re: mostly G:T


Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:01:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: mostly G:T
Ian or Katts writes:

>
> Sandcasters take up volume, at 1 dton per 3. Under the G:T rules, armour
> does not take up volume.
Well, sort of.  The armor doesn't take up volume, but the manuever drives
required to support the armor do.  For a 170,000 sf ship, +100 DR is 850
tons.
Manuever drives to move this weight at 1 G are 21+ spaces and 3.4 MCr.  One
extra sandcaster is 1 space (plus 1/8 space manuever) and costs .27 MCr
including the extra manuever.  Unless you're expecting to defend against
10+
ships at once, the sandcasters are a better bargain.
*********************
Sandcasters can also be used in the point defense role vs missiles.
- ---------------------- Forwarded by Aerron Winsor/IAS on 12/01/98 09:52 AM
- ---------------------------


Aerron Winsor
11/25/98 09:59 AM

To:   traveller@mpgn.com
cc:
Subject:  Re: mostly G:T

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:54:04
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: mostly G:T
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
>Subject: Re: mostly G:T
>
>Ian or Katts writes:
>
>And that 20 dt shuttle costs a couple of megacredits, and adds 30-40 tons
of
>weight (thus requiring more manuever drives), and without having a second
>shuttle you can't do fuel scooping (in fact, you can't obtain fuel at all
>unless there's some at the highport), and significantly increases loading
and
>unloading time.  These are not negligible effects, particularly at
low-grade
>starports -- and the simple truth is, PC starships (_regardless_ of
design) are
>only viable at low-grade starports.  Multi-kiloton bulk freighters can
undercut
>them every time as long as there's sufficient cargo transit and facilities
on
>the route to support the larger freighters.
>
20dtons of cargo space earns KCr 40 revenue per month. This will support a
couple of megacredits in extra sticker cost. Plus you can have express
cargo already in the ship's boat, ready for the first trip down.
***************

Hrm
40 - 21 (Boat Bay for a gig) + 6 (Cargo in the Gig) - 3 (thrusters for the
gig and extra cargo) = 22 dtons = 44KCr month if running full.

the gig and thrusters run 5.97 MCr with a payment of 25KCr / month

Looks viable to me.





Smaller ships can and have competed with bigger ones on the same route,
*provided* they are prepared to load, up and go immediatly. None of this
one week stuffing around waiting for a cargo ... when the cargo shows up,
you *go*.
**************
Agreed




Personally, I believe that you should be able to load the LHyd equivalent
of 44 gallon drums of AvGas onto your gig at the downport, and then
transfer them back off the gig and into the tanks. It's a bitch of a job,
but it strikes me as doable (the airport at Currie on King Island used 44
gallon drums of avgas to refuel the light planes that landed on the
island).
************
But do they do that for the tramp freighters that dock at the port?  or a
better example, does the freighter send a launch in to pick up the drums
and take them out to refuel the freighter?



Now, according to p119 of G:T it takes 18 minutes to escape Earth's
gravitational field at 2 gees, so I'd say that a one hour round trip is
reasonable.
***********
and an unstreamlined free trader with a gig will take 19 hours to do a full
load (it can unload at the same time though). it will either take a full
day or it wil  need 3 pilots for the shuttle.....hrm have to take another
crewman or two wages out of the profits

>> I used my words carefully ... 'too many bits sticking out' is a
euphemism
>> for partial streamlining. Those 350 knot upper atmosphere winds are
pretty
>> vicious.
>
>Not to something with the size and density of a traveller starship, at the
>pressures in the upper atmosphere.  A ship with the average aerodynamic
>streamlining of your average modern surface ship (which is to say,
functionally
>none) will be fine.  Obviously, you can design a ship which wouldn't
withstand
>low velocity atmospheric entry (large folding sensor arrays, for example),
but
>that's because it has components which are incapable of entering
atmosphere
>(regardless of actual streamlining of the hull) -- the hull itself will be
>_fine_ for any ship capable of withstanding one G.
I am perfectly happy with the level of streamlining on a modern surface
ship (ie it's a cow ... dont expect to play with grav fighters in the
atmosphere) being available, just as long as it costs less than 20% of the
volume of the ship.
Make 'partial streamlining' cost 10% of ship volume, maximum 10 dtons, and
I'll come to the party. Stubby wings, minimal lift, blobs of plastic over
the sensor arrays ...
************
the unstreamlined ships have this already. what they don't have is landing
gear and they can not do a balistic reentry. so where another ship would
have a half hor or so trip it would have several hours and would have to
worry much more about atmospheric conditions.  When it reached the surface,
it would have to find some water to land in (most ships can float).
>>
>> Sandcasters take up volume, at 1 dton per 3. Under the G:T rules, armour
>> does not take up volume.
>
>Well, sort of.  The armor doesn't take up volume, but the manuever drives
>required to support the armor do.  For a 170,000 sf ship, +100 DR is 850
tons.
>Manuever drives to move this weight at 1 G are 21+ spaces and 3.4 MCr.
One
>extra sandcaster is 1 space (plus 1/8 space manuever) and costs .27 MCr
>including the extra manuever.  Unless you're expecting to defend against
10+
>ships at once, the sandcasters are a better bargain.
The other consideration is that armour doesnt need crew.
**********
well actualy it does... engineering crew for the extra mauver drive.... it
requires less crew however.

- ---------------------- Forwarded by Aerron Winsor/IAS on 12/01/98 09:52 AM
- ---------------------------


Aerron Winsor
11/25/98 10:02 AM

To:   traveller@mpgn.com
cc:
Subject:  Stellar Diameter

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:18:20 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Stellar Diameter
Ewan Quibell wrote:
>I've had a quick look through WBH and have found the Stellar
>mass tables, but could not find anything for Stellar Diamiter.
>Did I miss something ? If not is there any way to generate, or
>gage stellar diamiter from Stellar mass or stellar type ?
**************
IIRC there is one in GURPS Space.
- ---------------------- Forwarded by Aerron Winsor/IAS on 12/01/98 09:52 AM
- ---------------------------


Aerron Winsor
11/25/98 11:18 AM

To:   traveller@mpgn.com, gurpsnet-l@io.com
cc:
Subject:  GT Docking costs

The standard docking fees are set at 100 Cr/dton per week.

how about adding some short term fees

say 25 Cr/dton per day

or 5 Cr/dton per hour

so a free trader pays:
20KCr/week
5KCr/Day
1KCr/hour

While a 20 ton Gig (like from Ian's unstreamlined trader) would pay a tenth
of that, but would need to rent warehouse space as well.

any thoughts on the cost of warehouse space?
- ---------------------- Forwarded by Aerron Winsor/IAS on 12/01/98 09:52 AM
- ---------------------------


Aerron Winsor
11/25/98 12:23 PM

To:   traveller@mpgn.com
cc:
Subject:  GT: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11


Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:14:24 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Hull Design - UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier, TL 11
High Guard Desgin for my "TNEC" Traveller game...  Biggest animal currently
in the UN Deep Space Navy's inventory.
        O/________________________________________
        o\
        County-Class Strike Carrier   Type CS
        TL 11.  1200 tons.

        The ship has 12 turrets. There are 12 beam lasers mounted in 4
turrets organized in 2 batteries.  There are 8 plasma guns mounted in 4
turrets organized in 2 batteries.  There are 12 missile racks mounted in 4
turrets organized into 1 battery.  For defense it has 12 sand-casters
mounted in 4 turrets organized into 2 batteries and an agility of 1.  There
is a 40-ton magazine and are 20% of missiles normally carried are nuclear
weapons.
**************
12 or 16 turrets?

        There are 30 ship's vehicles.  The ship carries three squadrons of
Typhoon-class "Standard-III" multi-role fighters.  Two squadrons of
Typhoons
are armed with single pulse lasers, while the third is armed with triple
missile racks.
**********
10 dton fighters?



        The County-Class Strike Carrier requires a crew of 80.  10 Command
section, 2 Engineers, 7 Gunners and 61 Flight section are required.
        The fighter crews operates the fighter compliment.
        The ship costs MCr709.20, including architects fees and takes 48
months to build.  The first was built in 2097, with a production run of 24
of these ships scheduled between 2097 and 2105.  The lead ship was the
UN-DSN Dover, and has been assigned to the Spinward areas of the
established
Terran Sphere.
        O/________________________________________
        o\
SHIP DESIGN WORKSHEET                    1.  Date of Preparation
                    2097
Converted to GT:


Crew: Captain(Leadership, Tactics), XO/Nav Officer (Astrogation), 2 Pilot
(Pilot[Spacecraft]), 2 Sensor Techs (Electronics Operation[Sensors]), 4
Commo Tech/ Flight Controllers (Electronics Operation[Commo]), 6 Engineers
(Engineering and Mechanic), Medics(First Aid), 9 Gunners (Gunner [Beam,
Missile or Sand]), 30 Fighter Pilots(Pilot [Aerospace Fighter]), 30 Fighter
Gunners (Electronics Operation[Sensors], Gunner [Beam or Missile]).

1200 Space SL Hull, 100DR, Hardened Command Bridge, Engineering, 90
Manuver, 24 Jump, 240 Fuel, 30 Vehicle Bay (Fighter), 61 Staterooms, 3
Utility, 3 Atmosphere Processor, 12 Turret, 12 Laser, 12 Missile Launcher,
12 Sandcaster, 22 cargo.

Statistics:  EMass 1,641.97, LMass 3,251.97, Cost 174.4779MCr(Without
Discount), HP 75,000.

Performance: Accel 1.11 Gs (2.05 Gs without fighters), Jump 1, Air Speed
2128, Size Modifier +10.

15.  Notes
Carries 30 Typhoon "Standard-III" Fighters
********
for conversion purpouses I assumed that the fighters are 10 dtons and mass
50 tons each.

This kind of ship is also whre the GT ships come out cheaper compared to
others. the undiscounted price is less than 25% of the HG _Discounted_
price.  For small civilian designs the systems match well

with the extra savings you could buy Total Compartmentalisation, Radical
Stealth and Radical EM the accel stays the same and the price is bumped up
to _only_ 264MCr.

The crew is a close match,  three of the six engineers are for the small
craft.
- ---------------------- Forwarded by Aerron Winsor/IAS on 12/01/98 09:52 AM
- ---------------------------


Aerron Winsor
11/25/98 12:37 PM

To:   traveller@mpgn.com
cc:
Subject:  GT: Fighters for UN-DSN "County-Class" Strike Carrier

Here are some possible designs for the strike carrier:


 Laser Fighter:

Crew: Pilot (Pilot [Aerospace Fighter]), Gunner (Electronics Operations
[Sensors], Gunner [Beam])

10 Space SL Hull, 100DR, Cockpit, 6 Manuver, Laser.

Statistics:  EMass 47.86, LMass 47.86, Cost 4.87M$, HP 3,000.

Performance: Accel 5.01 Gs, Jump 0, Air Speed 3000, Size Modifier +6.





Missile Fighter

Crew: Pilot (Pilot [Aerospace Fighter]), Gunner (Electronics Operations
[Sensors], Gunner [Missile])

10 Space SL Hull, 100DR, Cockpit, 4 Manuver, 3 Missile Launcher.

Statistics:  EMass 69.5, LMass 69.5, Cost 3.5725M$, HP 3,000.

Performance: Accel 2.30 Gs, Jump 0, Air Speed 2449, Size Modifier +6.





Mixed Fighter:

Crew: Pilot (Pilot [Aerospace Fighter], Gunner [Beam]), Gunner (Electronics
 Operations [Sensors], Gunner [Missile])

10 Space SL Hull, 100DR, Cockpit, 5 Manuver, Laser, Missile Launcher.

Statistics:  EMass 57.46, LMass 57.46, Cost 4.7275M$, HP 3,000.

Performance: Accel 3.48 Gs, Jump 0, Air Speed 2738, Size Modifier +6.




It looks like 50 tons each isn't far off.
- ---------------------- Forwarded by Aerron Winsor/IAS on 12/01/98 09:52 AM
- ---------------------------


Aerron Winsor
11/25/98 02:29 PM

To:   traveller@mpgn.com
cc:   carioca@stratos.net
Subject:  Manned Orbital Sensors


Orbital Sensor Platform for planets without a highport, This unit pfrovides
good scan coverage of the space around a planet.  It is capable of
detecting unstealthed ships out to 10,000,000 miles away (Free Trader, -9
to skill)


Manned Orbital Sensor Platform (TL 10)

Crew: Commander(Leadership), 6 Sensor Techs (Electronics
Operation[Sensors]), 3 Commo Techs (Electronics Operation[Commo]).

20 Space Hull, 100DR, Basic Bridge, Engineering, Manuver, 3 Staterooms,
Utility, 0.5 cargo.

Statistics:  EMass 98.86, LMass 98.86, Cost 11.9675MCr(Without Discount),
HP 6,000.

Performance: Accel 0.40Gs, Jump 0, Air Speed USL, Size Modifier +7.




Note: while the sensors can detect a ship out to 1,000 hexes, its not
*likely*. no mods to detect on a free trader gives a range of 30 hexes. A
more stringent application (no mods vs standard scout) gives an effective
range of 3 hexes (15 hexes with a handoff or prior detection) and a max
possible range of 100 hexes (450 hexes with a handoff).

A Rampart Fighter would be -2 to detect in the same hex (+2 with a handoff
or prior detection), with a max possible range of 7 hexes (30 hexes. with a
handoff)


If you want to relate this to the piracy debate, a 400 dton TL 10 ship with
Basic stealth and EM:
no mods at 4 hexes, with a max detection possible at 150 hexes.

the jump limit for a standard planet is 80 hexes, at this range the
hypotheical pirate is -8 to detect.

if we assume an operator skill of 12 that is a 4 or less to detect. or
1.85% per turn this give a 49% chance of detection after 36 hours. not real
good for the pirate, but not impossible odds either.

a ship of the same size with military stealth would be impossible to detect
at this range. (unless you switch to higer TL sensors)

On of these, a pair of launches to service it and 16 light fighters cost
less than 100MCr.  If a world has any resonable population (say 10,000,000
cits with taxes of 1Cr year to maintain this) it should have at least this
much in the way of defenses.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1225
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 2 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1226



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: GT Docking costs
RE: Spinal Mounts for GT
Re GRodenberry's Burial
Re Life in other systems, B5
Re Repatriation Bonds
Electronic Warfare
Astrogaphy Question
Re: GT Docking costs
Re: Spinal Mounts for GT
Re: Repatriation Bonds
GT: Which laser hits?
Partial Streamlining in GT
Re: G:T gearheadedness
Re: Manned Orbital Sensors
Re: Efate
GT: Space Combat Questions
Mercenaries (was re: Repatriation Bonds)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:02:12 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: RE: GT Docking costs

hal <hal@buffnet.net> on 12/01/98 01:28:20 PM

To:   Aerron Winsor/IAS, "traveller@mpgn.com" <traveller@mpgn.com>,
      "gurpsnet-l@io.com" <gurpsnet-l@io.com>
cc:
Subject:  RE: GT Docking costs




Hello Folks,
- -----Original Message-----
From:     Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
[SMTP:Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com]
Sent:     Wednesday, November 25, 1998 11:19 AM
To:  traveller@mpgn.com; gurpsnet-l@io.com
Subject:  GT Docking costs
The standard docking fees are set at 100 Cr/dton per week.
how about adding some short term fees
say 25 Cr/dton per day
or 5 Cr/dton per hour
so a free trader pays:
20KCr/week
5KCr/Day
1KCr/hour
While a 20 ton Gig (like from Ian's unstreamlined trader) would pay a tenth
of that, but would need to rent warehouse space as well.
any thoughts on the cost of warehouse space?
[]  With respect towards the docking fees etc...
Is this to be in place of the "life support" fees generated by staterooms
that were 2000 credits per stateroom?
*****************
more of a reality check, the docking fees in GT are based on real world
fees at air/sea ports.  The life support in GT is total life support
(provides food as well) and doesn't have any associated fees (other than
anual maintainence).




  As to wharehouse storage costs.  A friend of mine manages a U-store type
of place that charges something like $60 per month per 10x10 storage area.
This would equate to about 750 cubic feet of storage area.  So, in GURPS
TRAVELLER terminology, we'd be looking at 1.5 Displacement tons at $60 per
month.  In traveller terms, using roughly $2 to the Imperial credit, we are
looking at roughly 20 credits per month.
**************
working out to:
20/month
6/week
1/day?

does that sound about right?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:02:17 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: RE: Spinal Mounts for GT

hal <hal@buffnet.net> on 12/01/98 01:42:31 PM

To:   Aerron Winsor/IAS
cc:
Subject:  RE: Spinal Mounts for GT




Hello Aerron,
  Potion?  Do Spinal Mounts drink potions? <grin>.  I suspect you meant
that the volume taken up by a weapon for the spinal mount should be
considered as mass/20 instead of mass/50?  I would have to agree with you
on one ground alone: how are the weapons considered to be "armored"
otherwise?
**********
Option I meant, and the armor was my reasoning.



- -----Original Message-----
From:     Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
[SMTP:Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com]
Sent:     Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:20 AM
To:  traveller@mpgn.com; gurpsnet-l@io.com
Subject:  Spinal Mounts for GT
I have been thinking that spinal mounts for GT should really be built with
the concealed potion as they are entirly within the body of the vessel..
Comments?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 03:17:48 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re GRodenberry's Burial

>>>> Gene was buried in space, ashes scattered from one of the shuttles, so if
>>>> he's spinning, it's in orbit.
>>>
>>>I remember there being talk of doing this, but was it actually done?
>>>Were Gene's ashes brought up on a shuttle and dispersed?
>>
>>        It was done, but not by Shuttle.  Independant company in Europe has
>>developed an air-launched SSTO vehicle with a very small payload capacity.
>>Its first flight was to conduct the "Burial In Space" of "The Great Bird"
>>and a few others.  I believe the vehicle itself stayed in orbit for several
>>weeks and then re-entered and burned up.
>
>You sure it was Gene, I seem to recall the A&E Biography having footage of
>Gene's burial.

Well, not ALL of Gene went into orbit. They only took a few ounces of his
cremains (ashes)... the rest had to be properly dealt with. Which, in most
states either means in an urn or in the ground.

The company has a very limited weight allowance. There are plans for doing
the same from the shuttle... the capsules of cremains are the size of a
lipstic tube, and the ashes are not scattered free, but encapsulated.

It is estimated that the capsules will orbit for 5 to 15 years, IIRC

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:aramis@gci.net> Note: All other E-mail addresses for me expire by
the end of november 1998!
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
UTUP 0309 6-7779577-5-5-2
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 03:47:32 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Life in other systems, B5

>
>In looking at a catalogue of stars within 50ly I noticed most (all?) had
>stars with luminosities that seemed too bright or too dim to support
>human-like life.  I THOUGHT Alpha Centauri might be OK, but then I read
>in a couple of places that binary (or trinary) systems were unsuitable -
>but I am afraid I still don't understand why.
>
>MTU had hundreds of breathable, habitable planets, but I am starting to
>question the accuracy of their frequency.

There are differing viewpoints, but traveller seems to produce a much
higher number of habitable worlds than even the "more liberal" (higher
possibilities) applications of the Drake Equation would indicate.

As for multiple star systems, the Centauri system might be able to have
planets in the hab zone... but probably not. Proxima (the third) is a far
companion... far enough to get a separate entry in the catalogues, and have
an orbit time long enough that catalog entries are good for more than
several lifetimes. Proxima will be a bright star.

Alpha and Beta are much closer... but I don't recall HOW close. Combine the
gravitational sweeping of beta, the radiance flux on orbit, tidal stresses,
and the nature of system formation (IE, did they form at their distance, or
did beta fall in towards alpha), and you start to be able to figure whether
liquid water exists. Liquid water is a requisite for LIFE AS WE KNOW IT...
there may be other  forms, but who can tell till we encounter them?

>One other question, I've watched one episode of B5 (I have no idea what
>it is about), but I noticed they have characters they refer to as
>"Centauris".  Are these supposed to be bipedal life forms from the
>Centauri system, or descendents of earth colonists?
>
>All opinions welcome,
>
>- -Sean

No, they are not. The name comes from a mistranslation occuring during 1st
contact. They have stuck with it. [Babylon Project RPG, Chamelion Ecclectic
1996]

They are bipedal xenohominids, with males having 6 genetailia, and several
being over a meter long. [several episodes of B5]

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:aramis@gci.net> Note: All other E-mail addresses for me expire by
the end of november 1998!
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
UTUP 0309 6-7779577-5-5-2
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:03:06 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Repatriation Bonds

>> About repatriation bonds:
>
>	I've had alot of trouble with repatriation bonds.  Just never
>really got the idea of what their really *for*.  I understand the
>premise behind them;  a 'get off of the hostile world free' card.  I
>just don't understand the specifics.  What does one do to use a
>repatriation bond?  What are the limits to one?  The small little
>examples you posted helped alot, thanks.  ::smiles::
>

IMTU, it is literally a Bond posted by the employer with a major bank. With
limitation of term and forfeiture clauses. The way it works is that the
bond certificate is actually a multi-part document carried by the soldier.
One part is the conditions upon hostiles: If, after surrender or capture,
the capturer fails to have treated humanely, and with appropriate measures,
those persons on repatriation bonds, including unneeded delays in shipping
them offworld, the issuing (usually megacorporate) bank does three things:
sieze all assets of the offending gov't they hold; request IMOJ Review;
Warn all mercs seeking bonds for that world. The bond specifies what
theater/war, duration of service, and repatriation location of preference.
The bond authorizes 2 mid passages, to be paid with the attached coupons,
upon safe repatriation. It authorizes 5 "Assistance tokens", also payable
upon safe repatriation. No "assistance token" hoarding is allowed... each
person's tokens may only be validated by signature of the certificate
holder, they are manufactured in the same manner as currency, and they are
all reviewed upon safe repatriation. They all show name, rank, serial
number, unit, issuing agency, date of issue, etc. A capturing gov't is able
to recover an assistance token for quick turn-over of a capture or
surrenderer to the issuing bank... and, if passage meets it, a passage
token....

IMTU, it is also possible for someone to sneak to a port, and directly deal
wityh skippers, for an assistance token and a passage token.

The KCr10 bond covers 2 mids, 5 assists, and each pays at KCr8 for a mid,
and KCr 1 for an assist. The banks Mercenary Bonding and Repatriation Loans
Board will review anyone taking both jumps, and issuing more than 2
assists... and spread the word (And refusse to pay off) if fraud is found.
IMTU, most bonds are good for "Not more than 1 year past cessation of
hostilities in the ___ matter."

Also, IMTU,. interstellar Mercs need a liscence to form a Merc Unit....
MCr1, 20 year issue, with KCr50 renewal for 10 years thereafter. The
liscence allows them to purchase military equipment, transport said
equipment, etc, on the up and up. It also makes them subject to
"Imperialization" during war or civil disruption. It also allows them to
get Imperial SUrplus. It doesn't prevent non-liscenced operators, but such
mercs also have no protection under imperial custom... they are officially
"Partisan Troops", subject to being treated under local laws for "Crimes"
in the line of duty, while liscenced ones may only be tried for war crimes
by the IMOJ, in Imperial Courts... word of not doing this can bring the
dreaded Imperial Intervention, not to mention IN Interdict, TAS Amber or
Red Zoning, and bad press.


William F. Hostman
<Mailto:aramis@gci.net> Note: All other E-mail addresses for me expire by
the end of november 1998!
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
UTUP 0309 6-7779577-5-5-2
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:18:25 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Electronic Warfare

        Has anyone done up a set of EW/CEW rules for CT/HG?  We know you can
use an ECM program to defeat missles, but can you use it to fog up
somebody's primary sensors?  I am planning on putting something together,
including "burn through" ranges, etc., but I obviously don't want to
reinvent the hyperdrive.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:18:25 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Astrogaphy Question

        How many parsecs across is a nebula?  I am considering using a
"dark" nebula in IMTU as part of the plot, but am unsure how big or small an
"average" or a "small" nebular area would be.  Any help would be greatly
appreciated.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:21:25 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: GT Docking costs

I checked by original Traveller Book and it lists these fees as Cr 100 per week ... 
nothing said about GT's "per ton" cost.  Not that this is a big deal (but my 
players sure would be ticked about the increase), but I thought it was 
interesting.

The rest of your "short term" docking costs look reasonable to me though.

> Subject: GT Docking costs
> 
> The standard docking fees are set at 100 Cr/dton per week.
> 
> how about adding some short term fees
> 


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:28:13 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Spinal Mounts for GT

Fred and Evelyn Wolke <thewolkes@earthlink.net> on 12/01/98 05:41:39 PM

To:   Aerron Winsor/IAS
cc:   traveller@mpgn.com, gurpsnet-l@io.com
Subject:  Re: Spinal Mounts for GT




At 11:20 AM 11/24/98 -0500, Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com wrote:
>I have been thinking that spinal mounts for GT should really be built with
>the concealed potion as they are entirly within the body of the vessel..
>
>Comments?
Are they in mounts or bolted in?
*********8
Build the ship around them.

*****

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:28:12 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Repatriation Bonds

Walter Smith wrote:
> I'd see it as a very odd situation if a private mercenary company got a
> ride on _any_ Imperial Navy craft. The Imperium "tolerates" mercenaries,
> remember? 

Well in Fifth Frontier War I've got counters for quite a few mercenary
regiments. And the BatRons have the ability to carry them.

Anyway, I was just pointing out that there are some differences between a
repatriation bond and a low or mid passage.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:29:10 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: GT: Which laser hits?

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:57:59 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: GT: Which laser hits?


So, here is the question: suppose I have 1 medium laser, plus 2 point
defense lasers.  Target is at a range of 1 (max range for a point defense
laser by the way).  So, with a +9 RoF bonus to hit with those three lasers
combined... which one hits when you fire at a target?  The two point
defense lasers have a RoF of 2 x 20/60, which = 2/3.  The third laser has a
RoF of 4/60.  The combined total RoF is 44/60 = .73.  Problem is, the
combined RoF bonus for the Point Defense lasers alone is also +9.
**********8
IIRC you get better odds rolling for each seperatly.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:30:35 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Partial Streamlining in GT

this was posted by David Pulver on pyramid last night:
- ---------------------- Forwarded by Aerron Winsor/IAS on 12/02/98 08:29 AM
- ---------------------------


carioca@stratos.net (Aerron Winsor) on 12/01/98 09:20:32 PM

To:   Aerron Winsor/IAS
cc:
Subject:




A few people have wondered where partial streamlining is.
Answer: it's the default condition.
Take a look at old Traveller -- e.g., High Guard. What shape *isn't*
partial streamlined?
Dispersed structures, rocks, basically.
Both are special cases of the rules best built with options from
vehicles or the vehicles designer notes (open frame, modular, etc.)
The default is partial streamlining... the key is about DR 100 armored
hull...
**-----------------------------------------------------------**
"People think that professional soldiers think a lot about fighting,
but SERIOUS professional soldiers think a lot more about food and a
warm place to sleep, because these are two things that are generally
hard to get, whereas fighting tends to turn up all the time."
                 -T.Pratchett, SMALL GODS

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:35:43 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: G:T gearheadedness

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:09:59
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: G:T gearheadedness
>From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
>Subject: Re: Comments on G:T Decafreighter
>
>****************
>These are encuraged by the number of low tech, small starport woulds in
the
>Imperium.  IMO the interface suttles are only available at A, B and some C
>starports. if you don't stick to those ports, the benifit you gain buy not
>chosing streamlined is countered by having to carry your own shuttles.
>
An interface shuttle is about 4 megacredits, once you start to use
contragravity.
I find it very hard to believe that any world that engages in interstellar
trade couldnt afford the equivalent of a couple of aluminium dingies to
take cargo from ship to shore.
*********
nah the aluminum dingies are enclosed air rafts :)

anyway some type D and almost all type E have no small craft to speak of
(as they can't maintain them),


>Anyway, a mostly smooth sphere or cylinder should be capable of making
>planetfall with contragravity, as long as you didnt leave too many bits
>sticking out.
>**************
>They can, but have no landing gear, so you would have to land on water
>(most ships will float.)
Great. So 300 blokes with shovels can build us a minimum starport, or you
park just outside a seaport.
Seaports are better, becuase they should already have warehouses, ferries,
tugs, rail links and so on.
****************
yep, sounds like a class D starport to me, unrefined fuel available.






Well, if the boat is based on the ground, the ship gets to carry 18 dtons
more cargo, which means there is more potential profit on the route.
A lot of trust is needed, as the freighter captain is relying on the
groundpounders for her resupply of fuel.
***************
true, but I wouldn't count on that unless the port was C or better.




But seriously, G:T needs partial streamlining. I dont have Gurps:Vehicles,
but the p155 sidebar in G:T states 'Streamlined hulls used the lifting body
and "very good" streamlining features'. What happens if we dump the lifting
body, and take the streamlining features down to "poor" or "average" ?
**********
See my Partial Stramlining post....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:38:31 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Manned Orbital Sensors

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:16:15 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Manned Orbital Sensors
At 02:29 PM 25/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Orbital Sensor Platform for planets without a highport, This unit
pfrovides
>good scan coverage of the space around a planet.  It is capable of
>detecting unstealthed ships out to 10,000,000 miles away (Free Trader, -9
>to skill)
>
>
{Design Snipped for Brev}
        Question...  any way to scrap the staterooms, life support, et al
and have the array relaying data to a ground-based monitoring center...
"Space Traffic Control", or "STAR-RAD"?
*******************8
sure, but you are better of custom designing such a sat with Vehicles.



>On of these, a pair of launches to service it and 16 light fighters cost
>less than 100MCr.  If a world has any resonable population (say 10,000,000
>cits with taxes of 1Cr year to maintain this) it should have at least this
>much in the way of defenses.
>
        You could even forgo the fighters and opt for something like the
Star Lance missile I posted;  how many hexes in G:T does 100g's cover?
Silo
based weapons with the kind of mean-streak I discussed about the Star Lance
are most likely better than fighters...  they can "get there" faster than
the fighter, for starters.
***************
I think you would be better off with manned systems, just in case.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:09:32 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Efate

Hans Rancke wrote:
> Chris Seamans asks:
> > Now, is there any established canon for Efate?
>
> Here are my notes about Efate:
>
> Size: Medium (8800-10400 km)
> Atmosphere: Thin
> Hydrographics: 60% water
>
> Planetoid Belts: 1
> Gas Giants: 0

<snip>

Additionally, according to the Gamlords supplement  "The Mountain
Environment" there is a mountain on Efate called  Mt Surimsi.  It
is uninhabited and can be climbed:

"... located in the hinterlands of Efate.  Air  pressure  at  sea
level is .65atm (a taint makes filter masks necessary  as  well).
Mt Surimsi's base  is  1.5km  above  sea  level,  where  the  air
pressure is .60atm.  A low mountain, only  6.5km  tall,  the  air
pressure  at  the  summit  is  .13atm,  a  Very  Thin  atmosphere
requiring artificial assistance.  In summer, Mt Surimsi enjoys  a
temperature of 30 degrees C  at  its  base;  at  the  summit  the
temperature is nearly 33 degrees cooler - a chilly -3 degrees  C.
The  'timber line'  is  7.4km  above  sea  level  (5.9km  up  the
mountainside); in summer, the 'snow line' is at the same point."

Is this canon?  Who knows, but  it  adds  a  little  extra  local
colour.



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:52:23 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: GT: Space Combat Questions

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 21:26:02 -0600
From: "Ernest N Rowland" <erowland@ionet.net>
Subject: GT: Space Combat Questions
I recently finished GM'ing my first GT space battle, and I'm sure I did
some
things incorrectly.  It was a battle between a 400 dton corsair and a
couple
of standard 100 dton scouts - so we just had the turret weapons (TL10
lasers
and missiles).  So here are my questions:
1 - The 'Gunner Skill Modifiers' section on pg 173 doesn't say so, but I
assumed it applied only to _beam_ weapons.  Is this true?
*************
Applies to Sandcasters in PD mode as well, Missiles use Pilot(Missile).


2 - That same section says to count the firing hex when finding the range
modifier, so is this always at least 1?
*******************
no, always at least -39.


3 - At the 1/2D range for a 360MJ laser (2 hexes), the 'to-hit' modifiers
are:
      -44 range (3 hexes, because you count the firing hex also)
      +8 size (firing at a 100 dton scout)
      +4 ROF bonus (standard)
      +2 Active sensor lock
      +7 Targetting bonus (basic bridge = complexity 7 computer, but 4
turrets means run at complexity 6)
which yields (before gunner skill + acc bonus) a total of -23 [ mmm... 23
8-) ]
This means my gunner needs a skill level of 17 to hit on an 11 or less (17
(skill) + 17 (acc) - 23 = 9).  Is this correct?
The skill levels need to be kind-of-high for my taste - the Naval Enlisted
template only gives their gunners a skill of 16.
************
- -43 (range, the firing hex counts as range 0), +8 size, +4 rof, +2 sensor
lock, +8 (you get 3 computers with a bridge) = -21
skill 14 need 7 or less to hit (remember to roll for each laser seperatly)
skill 15 need 9 or less to hit (remember to roll for each laser seperatly)
skill 16 need 11 or less to hit (remember to roll for each laser seperatly)


4 - Point defense against incoming missiles.
      -39 range (0 hex, because the point defense section says so)
      +0 size (firing at a missile)
      +4 ROF (standard)
      +2 Active sensor lock
      +7 Targetting bonus
      + 10 point defense bonus
yielding -16 before skill+acc or (same guy with 17 skill) a total to hit
roll of 18 or less.  Is this correct?
************8
- -15 before skill + acc.
so skill 14 will need 13 or less to hit.


Missile Questions - This is where I was very unsure about how the combat is
supposed to be run.
5 - Hitting a ship with missiles.  Why are the missiles guided by the
gunner?  GT tries hard to give that Traveller feel, but I don't remember
guided missiles in other versions, more like homing missiles (ie, get a
lock
and fire, if the missile can catch the target and the target can't break
the
lock, _boom_).  Is this just to give Gunner characters more to do?
****************
because in order to be homing you would need massive sensor heads on the
missiles, besides it gives missile gunners somthing to do.


6 - Do missile gunners have a range penalty?
************
no


Wouldn't time lag be a factor at 9 hexes or so (1 light-second round-trip
for that laser communicator)?
*************
it should be but it is ignored.


7 - Are the 3 seconds of thrust continuous?  If the missile is guided, I
would think the operator could thrust at will.
***************
that is 60 minutes of thrust, and it doesnt have to all be used at once,
you could launch then coast to the target and then make an attack run.

8 - Can the missile hit if it has no thrust left?  How does the gunner get
it to physically hit the target with no thrust left?
******************
no, not it the target can evade at all.

Finally, my 3 Oct GT errata does not mention the fact that the 400 dton
System Defense Boat (pg 144), and the 400 dton Laboratory Ship (pg 145) have
a size modifier of +9, but the 400 dton Subsidized Merchant (pg146) has a
size modifier of +8 (I am assuming it should also be +9).
**********
correct.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:47:21 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Mercenaries (was re: Repatriation Bonds)

Alln Bradley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Of course, the Imperium might not be too impressed, but such "regular"
mercs would potentially be better  disciplined and more controllable than
the riff-raff of freelance warlords.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I look at it this way:

From an Imperial Marine officer's point of view, if they were really good,
they'd be Imperial Marines. If they were pretty good, they'd be Imperial
Navy. If they were minimally competent, they'd be Imperial Army. Since
they're none of those...get the idea?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1226
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 2 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1227



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GT Ship: Extended Duration Survey Vessel (version 2.0)
Re: Mercenaries (was re: Repatriation Bonds)
Re: Astrogaphy Question
re: Fast Couriers
Re: Efate
Traveller's Elder Races
Re: GT docking costs
Megacorps (was re: Validity of the Canon Traveller trading Model)
Re: X-boats
Electronic Warfare
ISAG, some details
Re: GT Docking costs
re: alpha centauri
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Megacorps (was re: Validity of the Canon Traveller trading Model)
Re: Megacorps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:49:01 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: GT Ship: Extended Duration Survey Vessel (version 2.0)

(this is an update and slight redesign of a ship I posted awhile ago.)

McCauley Class Extended Duration Survey Vessel (EDSV)

	A venerable design that has seen service since the early days of the Third
Imperium, this craft was originally designed as a military courier. The
Scout Service recognized it's potential and converted it for use as a ship
for long-duration survey missions; it's double fuel capacity gives it an
effective 4 parsec range and while by no means a warship, it has enough
firepower to survive potentially deadly encounters. The ship is still used
for survey missions by the IISS, as well as by private individuals (those
sold to private owners genrally remove the missle rack and replace it with
another set of lasers).

CREW: Captain (Leadership and Tactics), Pilot [Piloting (spacecraft)],
Navigator (Astrogation), Sensors Operator [Electronics Operation
(Sensors)], Commo Operator [Electronics Operation (Communications)],
Engineer (Engineer and Mechanic), 3 Gunners [Gunner (Laser), (Missle),
(Sandcaster)], Medic (Diagnosis, Physician and Surgery), 2 Scientists
(various). Many crews double up the Sensors and Commo positions; the Pilot
and Navigator positions can also be doubled up.

300-ton SL hull, DR 200, 1 turret with three 360-Mj lasers, 1 Turret with
one Missle rack (77 missles ready), I Turret with three Sandcasters (600
cannisters total), Radical Emissions Claoking, Basic Bridge (hardened),
Engineering, 50 Maneuver, 9 Jump, 120 Fuel, 16 Spacedock (holds 4,000 cf of
air/rafts or other vehicles), 7 Staterooms, Utility, 2 Fuel Processor (16
tons of fuel per hour), 1 Lab, 5.5 Cargo.

STATISTICS: Emass 745.55 LMass 778.15 Cost Mcr 86.295 Hull Size Modifier
+8, Hit Points 25,409

PERFORMANCE: Accel 2.6 G's, Jump 2, Air Speed 2,788

NOTES: This ship is based on the Lintula Sunrise, designed by Liam
McCauley, from the adventure "The Long Way Home". (hey, I like this ship
<g>)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:08:21 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries (was re: Repatriation Bonds)

At 08:47 AM 02/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Alln Bradley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Of course, the Imperium might not be too impressed, but such "regular"
>mercs would potentially be better  disciplined and more controllable than
>the riff-raff of freelance warlords.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I look at it this way:
>
>>From an Imperial Marine officer's point of view, if they were really good,
>they'd be Imperial Marines. If they were pretty good, they'd be Imperial
>Navy. If they were minimally competent, they'd be Imperial Army. Since
>they're none of those...get the idea?
>
>Walt Smith
>
        Walt, you are a *wonderful* source of "Senior Officer" quotes for
Traveller....  I am sitting here chuckling myself silly...
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:13:22 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

In a message dated 12/2/98 8:15:16 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

>         How many parsecs across is a nebula?  I am considering using a
>  "dark" nebula in IMTU as part of the plot, but am unsure how big or small
an
>  "average" or a "small" nebular area would be.  Any help would be greatly
>  appreciated.

Depends on what kind of nebula you're talking about.  _The Guide to the
Galaxy_ gives the average size of a molecular cloud* as about 120 ly (36.8
pc), but points out that there's a wide variation.  They can be smaller or
a *lot* bigger.  Other kinds of nebulae have different typical sizes.

I'm not sure that there are any molecular clouds within the equivalent of
Charted Space in the "real universe."  No reason you can't have one wherever
is convenient IYTU, of course.

*A relatively dense, dark, cool cloud of dust and gas, containing an unusually
high concentration of complex molecules.  Typical "incubator" for new stars.
A canonical example is the Coal Sack.  Remember that the usual portrayal
of a "nebula" in SF is way wrong -- they're nowhere near as thick as you see
on Star Trek :-).  The center of even a dense molecular cloud is still the
next
best thing to a hard vacuum.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:25:27 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fast Couriers

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No less so than the British East India Company, which routinely did
business in this fashion. Or ANY international corporation in the 18th
and 19th centuries, including, at a guess, _most_ of the Dutch
nation...the Netherlands got very very rich trading in that fashion.
Closer to your home, look at the Hanseatic League...travel times were
easily a week or two between most ports, were they not?

The Asian Silk Caravan route rediscovered by Marco Polo took months or
years to complete a round trip, yet there were a lot of traders willing
to make the trips, and it formed one of the bases of the Renaissance
economic boom of Italy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It should be pointed out that the early Dutch traders, Marco Polo, and
the other long range merchants of the era weren't depending on data
that we would call timely. Their usual procedure would be to take a
ship full of valuables, sail off to where luxury goods were available a 
year or so ago, find the current best trading center in the far east, and
come back some years after they left loaded down with silks, spices, and 
other goods. Their investors may have asked them to get certain high
value goods, but these couldn't be more than guidelines - if the saffron
crop in Banglore had failed that year, you wouldn't expect the captain
to hang around waiting for instructions. A Merchant Prince of that era 
wasn't sitting in a counting house in Brussels, he was on the caravel
headed for Malay - because there was literally no way for him to excercise
control over the trade expedition without being there.

Kind of like the speculative trading operations of TU Free Traders.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:37:53 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Efate

Peter L.S. Trevor writes:

>Hans Rancke wrote:
>>
>>Here are my notes about Efate:
>>
>>Size: Medium (8800-10400 km)
>>Atmosphere: Thin

Small error here. My notes detail Efate in the Year 125, and as I decided
that the taint was due to industrial pollution, I didn't include the taint.
In 1105 the atmosphere is 'thin, tainted'.

>Additionally, according to the Gamlords supplement  "The Mountain
>Environment" there is a mountain on Efate called  Mt Surimsi.  It
>is uninhabited and can be climbed:

[Quote deleted]

Thanks, Peter. That goes straight into my note file.

>Is this canon?  Who knows, but  it  adds  a  little  extra  local
>colour.

To me it is canon unless contradicted by another canonical source. And if
that other source didn't make a deliberate change for a specific, very good
reason, it would still be canon...
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:42:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Traveller's Elder Races

Friends,

One of the posts from Tuesday, 12/01 (yesterday) caught my eyes, and 
brought up a great question about other star-faring races before or 
during the time of the Ancients.  I have to admit that it's kinda 
boring to me to have artifacts from "long lost civilizations" all 
belong to either a hyper-psionic mutant Droyne or one of his 400 
eugenically enhanced offspring circa -300,000.

Traveller sources have hinted at other races during or before that 
time period.

In IG's Alien Archives, one of the races (I'm at work and can't 
remember the name:  I think it's the Providers, but I'm not sure) 
were transplanted to their current homeworld in -500,000.  Their 
original world was about to be destroyed by natural phenomenon, so 
they sent sample of their lifeforms to other world using STL 
transport.

In GT: Behind the Claw, one of the minor races (again, memory lapse, 
but the name started with a T) was discovered to have been 
transplanted to their current homeworld from somewhere else in 
- -600,000.  Who did it?

Does anyone else have any references to other star-farers or elder 
races from canonical Traveller sources?

Did other elder races exist?  Did they have jumpdrives, or were they 
stuck to sublight speeds?  Did they cover one world/system, or did 
they have an extended stellar society?

What are your thoughts?

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:45:44 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: GT docking costs

James Pearson writes:

>I checked by original Traveller Book and it lists these fees as Cr 100 per
>week ...  nothing said about GT's "per ton" cost. Not that this is a big
>deal (but my players sure would be ticked about the increase), but I thought
>it was interesting.

That's because GT dosen't have any life support costs at all (AFAICS there's
not even any food costs, which IMO is going too far in the other direction
(more likely, I've missed a reference to them. David? Can you clear that up?)
Anyway, the docking costs were worked out to give a Free Trader roughly the
same expenses per jump in GT as in other Traveller versions.

As others have pointed out, the change does make a difference even so. I
approve of the change, however, and really, really hope that Marc will
adopt it for T5  --  provided food costs and the occasional flushing of
air, water and sewage systems are included. 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:53:01 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Megacorps (was re: Validity of the Canon Traveller trading Model)

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        Once you have the resources of a Megacorp to draw on, yes, only
Collosal bad luck or missmanagement will kill you.  In the meantime.....
And once the first Megacorp climbed the evolutionary ladder, why didn't it
EAT everything else threatening to become a Megacorp?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Part of it would be geography. If a megacorp is developing in Core,
it won't have the resources to prevent a megacorp from developing
in Vland. By the time both companies have truly become megacorps,
each is too big for the other to readily devour. (The one developing in
Core may happily devour it's closer-placed competitors, though).

Another part would be specialization. An Imperium-wide banking
megacorp may not have any interest in owning shipbuilding concerns,
it would rather be a step back a finance them. Thus you have both
Hortalez et Cie and GSbAG (for example).

Then there is the political angle. A megacorp probably cannot prosper
without the existance of the Imperium, and the permission of the
Emperor. It seems to me the Emperor has no interest in all commercial
power in his empire becoming concentrated in one corporate entity.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:30:26 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: X-boats

William F. Hostman writes:

>Hans writes:

>>The trouble with the X-boat network is not that it still exists, but that
>>MT claims that (with the exception of the Emperor himself) the elite still
>>uses it, thus NOT getting the advantage you're talking about.
> 
>No, not really. Only the really wealthy can afford even a small priority
>network. Thnik about this: more than half of all US buisinesses rely on the
>US mail (average delivery time, 3 days local, a week for inter
>town/interstate).
> 
>FedEx is 20 times more expensive to use, as is overnight US post.
> 
>Priority mail is about 7 times mroe expensive, and is US post for "2-3 days"

I don't understand what you mean. Do you think the claim that all message
traffic (except the Emperor's) travel at an average of 2.6 parsecs/week is
reasonable or that it is highly suspect?
 
>IMTU, most "Crucial trade information" is going to be within J-4 from point
>of origin to point of use. Something a single courrier can handle for
>"Emergent" info....

Translating that into time that is the equivalent of the distance between
England and France in the 18th Century. IMTU crucial trade information
often originates at distances that is equivalent to that between England and
India and sometimes between England and China.
 
>Think on this, too: Jump-6 couriers, arriving daily... Well, by the
>mechanics of Jump Exit, you could wind up with as much as 3 days with no
>arrivals, and then have 3 arrive. Daily arrivals example:
>1,1,1,0,3,0,1,1,0,1,1,1,1,2,0,1,0,3,0,1,1.... Assuming a single linkage, to
>have one in and one out, you need 10 (3 days recovery time and thus a 10
>day schedule... leaving 6-8 in jump at any given time, each way) Each way,
>plus spares, per link! A "Daily" x-mail system needs about 10 per link each
>direction. A twice weekly needs about 4. IMTU, it's 6 per link, 3 each
>way... roughly every 3 days. J-6 X-boats will also be significantly more
>expensive than J4.

Several of you assume that I'm talking about daily couriers. Nowhere have I
said anything like that. I'm talking about something to compete with the
X-boat network, which IIRC uses weekly links. Comparing a daily service
with a weekly one is manifestly unfair. Try comparing the canonical distance
(in time) between Capital and Mora (about 1.5 years IIRC) with the 25-30
weeks that a rational jump-6 link can demonstrably provide and you will
see that a courier network does not need daily service to outperform the
X-boats. Heck, it could be monthly and it would still beat the pants off it.

For the record, I think a weekly service is the most reasonable.  

David P. Summers writes:

>Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:36:14 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>>I can be worth money, but is it worth the money to routinely get info 33%
>>>quicker?
> 
>>That depends on what you mean by routinely. It won't give you a fixed dayly
>>profit, if that's what you mean. But every so often it will allow you to
>>make a large profit or avoid a large loss.
> 
>Yeah, but the occaison chance to make a big killing won't support
>and X-boat kind of system.  It will support hiring a ship on
>a one time basis to carry the message.

Let's agree to disagree about that one.

>>, history shows us
>>one more situation where a few hours can mean a huge difference: When you
>>are buying and selling luxury goods. Take the annual tea races in the
>>previous century for example. The clipper that got into harbor (or
>>harbour ;-) first each year got the best prices. That was so valuable that
>>they built huge ships dedicated specifically to this one purpose.
> 
>Again, they had a fast ship dedicated to that one need.  They
>didn't build those ships in a such numbers that they were
>visiting all significant ports on a routine basis (if they did,
>those ships wouldt be special).

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. What I meant was that some
cargoes are valuable enough that making a huge investment for the purpose
of getting there first with the cargo is worthwhile. In the example it
was clipper ships. A good, speedy information network is another example.
  
>>Nor do any of us propose that there would be a network that connected all
>>Imperial planets. Just the 3-400 most important ones...
> 
>Connecting the 3-400 most important worlds is the same as connecting all
>signifcant ports.

Exactly my point.

>>>>So you pick up the messages the X-boat from the important world dropped off
>>>>a few days ago. They will still get almost anywhere faster than by X-boat
>>>>alone.
> 
>>>The delay will be a week or two, that will mean that will be no
>>>savings until past 12-24 parsecs.
> 
>>How do you figure that? The messages go by X-boat until it reach a courier
>>node where it is picked up. So you don't lose any time there.
> 
>And how long does it have to wait at that node?

Up to a week if the courier service is weekly. Since the saving between 
Capital and Mora is about 50 weeks, that one week is hardly a backbreaker.

>The point is that any [such?] scheme has to have service that is frequent
>otherwise a lot of the timesavings is lost.

I'd say a weekly service would be frequent enough to compete. Heck, between
Capital and Mora a QUARTERLY service would be frequent enough!
 
>>>>>There may be J-6 couriers between the Capital and Mora.
> 
>>Not according to canon, which state that all message traffic goes by X-boat.
>>Which is the problem I have in the first place, not with the existence of
>>the X-boats per se.
> 
>Well, I will agree that _all_ messages going by X-boats is a bit much.

Ah, but that's just my point. If you have to break canon anyway, why not go
the whole hog and change it for something plausible? I'll freely admit that
there are any number of different setups that would all be reasonable. Some
more so than other, but all of them IMO acceptable. 13 barebones networks
run by each Megacorporation, would be one. A collective "Merc-net" subscribed
to by all licenced interstellar corporations is another. A 'mongrel' X-boat
network that was _mostly_ jump-4, but supplemented by the occasional jump-5
and jump-6 link is another. I'm not saying that any particular version is
the One True Way. All I am really saying is that _all_ messages going by
X-boats is a bit much.

>>>Why send their routine messages by a slow alternative?  Because it's
>>>cheaper...
> 
>>Not if they send priority messages by jump-6 courier. As Ian pointed out,
>>information is VERY dense (It'll BLOW you densitometer!!! ;-). Sending
>>100,000 Terabytes is no more expensive than sending 1.
> 
>That assumes there is a jump-6 courier that just happens to be
>going your way.

And as I have specifically stated several times I do assume that such a
system exists: The Imperial Navy. I have also said that it seems unlikely
to the point of breaking my willing suspension of disbelief that the
Admiralty would not want tight control over their fleets. If you
disagree about that, then we disagree about axioms, not logic and any
discussion where axioms are disputed is futile.

>That means frequent jump-6 service on all the places where you are saying
>it will replace jump-4 service.

I'm not claiming that it will replace the jump-4 service. I do find it odd
that the X-boats have not been upgraded, but not "This just can't be true"
odd, merely "That's odd" odd.

>Furthermore, if a more expensive ship it going to take the message, they
>will either have to charge _everyone_ more to take the message, or find
>some way of singling out only those who wouldn't pay more and giving them
>a discount (a tricky proposition at best).

To get a message from Capital to Mora requires about 1/3rd as many ships as
the X-boat network uses. I won't go into specifics unless we can agree on
which ship construction rules we use as a basis, because of the huge
differences in the costs for the different systems, but I'd say that it is
highly debatable whether a jump-6 network would actually be more expensive
than the X-boats.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:20:52 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Electronic Warfare

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
        Has anyone done up a set of EW/CEW rules for CT/HG?  We know you can
use an ECM program to defeat missles, but can you use it to fog up
somebody's primary sensors?  I am planning on putting something together,
including "burn through" ranges, etc., but I obviously don't want to
reinvent the hyperdrive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
HG abstracts EW/ECM/ECCM into the combat system, under
the to-hit modifiers for relative computer quality. The price you payed
for the computer was assumed to include sensors, jammers, etc.

Someone with a Model/1 computer will almost never hit someone with
a Model/9 computer, no matter what the agility or weapon factor involved.
You could probably assume that the crew with the Model/1 computer is 
staring at static on every screen on the ship - or maybe (if the crew with
the Model/9 is feeling creative), they get to watch their computer
play Pong with itself.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:36:20 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: ISAG, some details

How the ISAG may work: (it's now in Beta folks! <G>)

I have discovered that due to real life, I just do not have the time to
check everybody's ships and post them to the list, as I would need do
with "Ship of the Week".  It is for this reason I thought of the
Imperial Ship Architects Guild (ISAG).  

The idea is that on a given month we select a type of ship to build,
during that month people will post their designs to the GURPS and TML
lists.  Each person will be responsible for making sure their own
designs check out, as the others within the ISAG and those who will vote
on the best design will prolly check them as they vote on them. At the
end of the submission period will be a vote on the best design based on
mission specs, economics, most unusual design, most innovative, etc... 
The ship with the most points will be posted to the lists as the "ISAG
Ship of the Month" and receive a bag of iridium plated kudos. <G>

My job will be to correlate the emails for ship designs and voting
ballots.  Alas I do not have the ability to create a mailing list from
my ISP as the old ISBA had.  But if anyone joining ISAG would like to
give it a shot into producing one, go for it.

Ok then, the only thing we need to do is think of what type of ship to
build for Jan '99.  I wont do anything for this month but get ISAG
members contact information and such.  Possibly put together a website
too.

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:37:45 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT Docking costs

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:21:25 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: GT Docking costs
I checked by original Traveller Book and it lists these fees as Cr 100 per week ...
nothing said about GT's "per ton" cost.  Not that this is a big deal (but my
players sure would be ticked about the increase), but I thought it was interesting.
The rest of your "short term" docking costs look reasonable to me though.

> Subject: GT Docking costs
>
> The standard docking fees are set at 100 Cr/dton per week.
>
> how about adding some short term fees
>
********************
Well if you note, the life support fees go away....it tendes to ballance
out, and help keep the PCs on fronteer would that might not charge so much.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:38:09 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: re: alpha centauri

On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

>
>There is a general feeling that the presence of multiple stars in a system
>might disrupt the planet-formation process, unless the stars are very close
>or very distant - but this is a vague theoretical idea; observationally, 
>binary systems seem to have more protoplanetary disks and close gas-giant
>planets (the only kind we can detect) than one might expect.

There is an article in AJ 1997 vol 113 number 4 p.1445-1450 by Wiegert & Holman
that is a numerical simulation of orbits in the Alpha Centauri system. 

The conclusion is that a single planet on a circular orbit is unstable over much
of the region around central Alpha Centauri binary. However, there are zones in
which such a planet could be stablw over million year time scales. These zones
are located both far from the binary (a>= 70AU) or near the binary or secondary
(a<=3AU). The semimajor axis between the two are 23AU. So there could most
defenitly be planets around the system.

>Bruce
>

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:45:55 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

At 09:13 AM 02/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/2/98 8:15:16 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:
>
>>         How many parsecs across is a nebula?  I am considering using a
>>  "dark" nebula in IMTU as part of the plot, but am unsure how big or small
>an
>>  "average" or a "small" nebular area would be.  Any help would be greatly
>>  appreciated.
>
>Depends on what kind of nebula you're talking about.  _The Guide to the
>Galaxy_ gives the average size of a molecular cloud* as about 120 ly (36.8
>pc), but points out that there's a wide variation.  They can be smaller or
>a *lot* bigger.  Other kinds of nebulae have different typical sizes.

        Thanks very much!

>I'm not sure that there are any molecular clouds within the equivalent of
>Charted Space in the "real universe."  No reason you can't have one wherever
>is convenient IYTU, of course.

        Yep...  I am doing a hard right turn on reality with a 10-12pc
nebulae I need in my campaign....  less than 80ly from Terra, just never
noticed because of its size...  the Bad Guys are behind it.

>*A relatively dense, dark, cool cloud of dust and gas, containing an unusually
>high concentration of complex molecules.  Typical "incubator" for new stars.
>A canonical example is the Coal Sack.  Remember that the usual portrayal
>of a "nebula" in SF is way wrong -- they're nowhere near as thick as you see
>on Star Trek :-).  The center of even a dense molecular cloud is still the
>next best thing to a hard vacuum.

        They look pretty solid in photos from NASA, so I understand the
mistake that Trek makes.  Thanks for the information!
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:45:39 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Megacorps (was re: Validity of the Canon Traveller trading Model)

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>         Once you have the resources of a Megacorp to draw on, yes, only
> Collosal bad luck or missmanagement will kill you.  In the meantime.....
> And once the first Megacorp climbed the evolutionary ladder, why didn't it
> EAT everything else threatening to become a Megacorp?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Part of it would be geography. If a megacorp is developing in Core,
> it won't have the resources to prevent a megacorp from developing
> in Vland. By the time both companies have truly become megacorps,
> each is too big for the other to readily devour. (The one developing in
> Core may happily devour it's closer-placed competitors, though).
> 
> Another part would be specialization. An Imperium-wide banking
> megacorp may not have any interest in owning shipbuilding concerns,
> it would rather be a step back a finance them. Thus you have both
> Hortalez et Cie and GSbAG (for example).
> 
> Then there is the political angle. A megacorp probably cannot prosper
> without the existance of the Imperium, and the permission of the
> Emperor. It seems to me the Emperor has no interest in all commercial
> power in his empire becoming concentrated in one corporate entity.
> 
> Walt Smith

So to carry it forward, what happens to the Megacorps when the Imperium
implodes?  

I'd assume that the local (and that can be very very broad) officers
would continue operations, system, sub-sector, sector, even
multi-subsector if they could.  I envision a Subsector level
Director/VP/Pres anticipating being the BIG GUY, right up until the J-6
courier shows up from Sector HQ letting him know what the official
MegaCorp policy now is in the newly downsized Sector MegaCorp....and
then never hearing from them again when the Sector HQ gets trashed....

Ahhhh the possibilities.  Lots of room for Nobles to make themselves
felt again.  Political intrigue....  I love it.

The Count

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:58:49 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Megacorps

At 07:23 PM 02/12/98, you wrote:
>
>>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>>Subject: Re: Manned Orbital Sensors
>>
>>        You could even forgo the fighters and opt for something like the
>>Star Lance missile I posted;  how many hexes in G:T does 100g's cover?  Silo
>>based weapons with the kind of mean-streak I discussed about the Star Lance
>>are most likely better than fighters...  they can "get there" faster than
>>the fighter, for starters.
>
>Michel,
>
>The Star Lance missiles are probably illegal under all other Trav rules
>systems, are meat for point defense weapons and, being nuclear tipped, are
>vulnerable to nuke dampers. 
>
>However, the general idea of using long-duration missiles as
>rapid-deployment forces works.
>

        Hi, Ian!
        Actually, I had noticed that HE missles have better odds of hitting
than do NE.  If you *do* use the SS3 rules, then you are better off putting
a monster engine on it and generating the extra damage by direct impact. Of
course, since the idea I understood about the MOS that was posted was to
keep track of potential piracy situations, any pirate with a nuke damper is
big enough to be a Naval problem.  And the system he/she/it is currently
visiting has other things to panic about. =)
        Also, I would guess that GURPS allows for, or can be *bent* to allow
for to custom-made one-shot-ship-wreckers.  I don't know for sure, as I
don't play the system.

>>        Thank-you.  You just cemented my whole problem with the Canon
>>arrangement right there...  How did they *get* to be Megacorps, if they only
>>things capable of "ignoring" the problems of operating on this scale *are*
>>megacorps?
>
>Well, Makhadurin, Sharushiiid and Nasiirka have been around since before
>the Ziru Sirkaa got set up.

        In otherwords, GM Fiat said "I need Megacorps, so I'll have them
exist so far into prehistory I don't have worry about the economics required
to create one..."

>The non-Vilani megacorps are more recent, but most of them got their start
>during the Antebellum 'expansion' period of the Third Imperium.
>
>Notable is the 'missing megacorp', Zhunatsu Corp, which was the personal
>property of Cleon I, and a driving force behind the actual establishment of
>the Imperium. There is no answer in Canon, but the guessing is it was
>broken up during the replacement of Cleon the Mad, in exchange for Imperial
>shares in all the other big corps.

        So why didn't the existing "Big Three" companies simply buy them out
or stomp them out?  It is not in a corporation's best interest to have
competiton.

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1227
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 2 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1228



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Electronic Warfare
Re: Traveller's Elder Races
Re: Starship Economics/  Broken Frieght Rates
Re: GT docking costs
Re: Traveller's Elder Races
Re: X-boats
GT Ship: Extended Duration Survey Vessel (version 2.0)
Re: Ararat class corvette
Re: Ararat class corvette (very long...sorry)
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Traveller's Elder Races
Re: Traveller's Elder Races
Re: alpha centauri
Re: PE questions
Another astrography question
PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)
re: WARNING! Bad seller!
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:04:53 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Electronic Warfare

At 10:20 AM 02/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>        Has anyone done up a set of EW/CEW rules for CT/HG?  We know you can
>use an ECM program to defeat missles, but can you use it to fog up
>somebody's primary sensors?  I am planning on putting something together,
>including "burn through" ranges, etc., but I obviously don't want to
>reinvent the hyperdrive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>HG abstracts EW/ECM/ECCM into the combat system, under
>the to-hit modifiers for relative computer quality. The price you payed
>for the computer was assumed to include sensors, jammers, etc.
>
>Someone with a Model/1 computer will almost never hit someone with
>a Model/9 computer, no matter what the agility or weapon factor involved.
>You could probably assume that the crew with the Model/1 computer is 
>staring at static on every screen on the ship - or maybe (if the crew with
>the Model/9 is feeling creative), they get to watch their computer
>play Pong with itself.
>
>Walt Smith

        Hi, Walt!

        Thanks very much.  I had never considered it that way, but it make
sense.  I just presumed the CPU vs CPU duel was a reflection of the bigger
system's ability to run more DM-generating programs than the smaller one
(Predict, Gunner Interact, etc).  Thanks!
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:11:49 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Traveller's Elder Races

>Friends,
>
>One of the posts from Tuesday, 12/01 (yesterday) caught my eyes, and
>brought up a great question about other star-faring races before or
>during the time of the Ancients.  I have to admit that it's kinda
>boring to me to have artifacts from "long lost civilizations" all
>belong to either a hyper-psionic mutant Droyne or one of his 400
>eugenically enhanced offspring circa -300,000.
>
>Traveller sources have hinted at other races during or before that
>time period.
>

Spoiler  and IMTU Warning.




I found it HIGHLY unlikely that no other race would have spread throughout
the galaxy long before humans/major rcaes/ancients given how easy it is to
refuel etc and the timespans we deal with. I also found it very unlikely
that no oher intelligent races would have developed in other eras at other
places in the galaxy given how many races (minor and major) there are in
Traveller known space (a minuscule portion of the galaxy).

To solve this and somewhat stay in canon I decided that hyperspace itself
was an artifact of some vastly intelligent race and that it worked only
around known space and in a corridor towards the galactic core (the Zhos
core expeditions are in canon). This also deals with the fact that there
are no easy explanations to how hyperspace works etc in canon sources and
this could IMHO only be possible if it was not a naturally ocurring
phenomena (physicists would get into deep trouble if they couldn't rely on
the cosmological principle - everything near us is more or less the same as
everywhere else).

Finally the weird mutation that created this supersmart Droyne I found
extremely implausible if it was natural. I decided that the preancients
created Yaskoydroy as part of a plot between two factions among them. When
Yaskoydroy finally found out about what he was and what hyperspace was he
got REALLY frightened; hid killed all children, destroyed all works, gave
j-drives to all major races and hid in a pocket universe. I guess those
preancients were/are pretty fearful huh.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:13:17 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Economics/  Broken Frieght Rates

>>>>
Marks' Standard Handbook for Mewchanical Engineers states that the
size
of these containers are 12.2m x 2.5m x 2.5m which is 76.25m^3 or
5.65
disp.tons (13.5m^3 /dT) or 5.44 dT (14m^3/dT)

In English units it is listed as 40ft x 8ft x 8ft 8in (outside
dimensions), which converts to 78.5m^3

Charles
>>>>
Thanks for the more specific information.  I had the dimensions only
approximately in my head.  So about 5.5 disp.tons per Earth standard
cargo containers of the late 20th century.  As I said before, this is
close enough to Traveller containers so that I wouldn't feel bad
making _some_ comparisons between container traffic now and in CT
times.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:20:20 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT docking costs

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:45:44 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: GT docking costs
James Pearson writes:
>I checked by original Traveller Book and it lists these fees as Cr 100 per
>week ...  nothing said about GT's "per ton" cost. Not that this is a big
>deal (but my players sure would be ticked about the increase), but I
thought
>it was interesting.
That's because GT dosen't have any life support costs at all (AFAICS
there's
not even any food costs, which IMO is going too far in the other direction
(more likely, I've missed a reference to them. David? Can you clear that
up?)
Anyway, the docking costs were worked out to give a Free Trader roughly the
same expenses per jump in GT as in other Traveller versions.
****************
The life support systems used in GT are Total life support.  They include
food. the upkeep for them is taken care on during the anual maintanance.
this mean that if you skip anual maintinace, that not only do you have a
higher chance of misjup, but you also might lose life support.  IYTU you
can declare the food to be unappitizing paste, and charge for food,
Some resonable numbers:
100/week for crew/mid passage
200-400/week for high passage

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:19:17 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Elder Races

At 10:55 AM 12/2/98 -0500, Jason Kemp wrote:
>Does anyone else have any references to other star-farers or elder 
>races from canonical Traveller sources?

DGP/GDW mentions another elder race in the MegaTraveller adventure Knightfall.

>Did other elder races exist?  Did they have jumpdrives, or were they 
>stuck to sublight speeds?  Did they cover one world/system, or did 
>they have an extended stellar society?
>
>What are your thoughts?

IMTU, there is an elder race that is still around. They remember the
ancients. It's no big deal - this race (the Meshran) don't have Jump Drive
and are very content to sit in their six systems and just _be_.

One of these days I'll be posting more information about the races in my
camapaign (The Meshran, Krahz/Chk, Syumbroy, Tieyl, Taneian, Bulwrath,
Gil'ggoruk). As soon as I get some free time (like that's going to happen).

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                        |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AIM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AIM: CMS AndyA    |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+   |
|       vi+ da+                                                       |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+     |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                            |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:46:28 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: X-boats

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:30:26 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: X-boats


>The point is that any [such?] scheme has to have service that is frequent
>otherwise a lot of the timesavings is lost.
I'd say a weekly service would be frequent enough to compete. Heck, between
Capital and Mora a QUARTERLY service would be frequent enough!
************
quarterly I wouldnt call a network at all, just one ship IIRC could do
this, taking the Rift route.

And as I have specifically stated several times I do assume that such a
system exists: The Imperial Navy. I have also said that it seems unlikely
to the point of breaking my willing suspension of disbelief that the
Admiralty would not want tight control over their fleets. If you
disagree about that, then we disagree about axioms, not logic and any
discussion where axioms are disputed is futile.
*************
IMO the imperial navy will have at least one jump6 courier per capital
ship. as well as scheduled runs between navy bases.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:58:14 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: GT Ship: Extended Duration Survey Vessel (version 2.0)

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:49:01 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: GT Ship: Extended Duration Survey Vessel (version 2.0)
Hi Allen, some comments:


 Medic (Diagnosis, Physician and Surgery),
*********
A medic with no sickbay? consider adding one.

300-ton SL hull, DR 200, 1 turret with three 360-Mj lasers, 1 Turret with
one Missle rack (77 missles ready), I Turret with three Sandcasters (600
cannisters total), Radical Emissions Claoking,
*************8
Consider radical stealth to go with this.


 Basic Bridge (hardened),
Engineering, 50 Maneuver, 9 Jump, 120 Fuel, 16 Spacedock (holds 4,000 cf of
air/rafts or other vehicles), 7 Staterooms, Utility, 2 Fuel Processor (16
tons of fuel per hour), 1 Lab, 5.5 Cargo.
**********
re cargo, add (+2 in Turret), or add two more missile launchers.
STATISTICS: Emass 745.55 LMass 778.15 Cost Mcr 86.295 Hull Size Modifier
+8, Hit Points 25,409
PERFORMANCE: Accel 2.6 G's, Jump 2, Air Speed 2,788
*************
very nice ship, how about posting the hull stats you used....the numbers
are about right, but I can't check them exactly without pluging in the mass
cost and surface area of the hull. (HP appear suspicious though). size mod
should be +9.  consider droping the accel to 2 Gs to get more cargo
space/bigger spacedock.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:04:50 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Ararat class corvette

>I always just assumed there was one LIDAR and all of the weapons
>workstations worked off of information fed to them by it!
There's a chart somewhere in FFS2 that says how many targets one LIDAR
can engage. For medium-small ships you can indeed run allt he weapons off
one LIDAR; the main reason for having more is redundancy - if the LIDAR 
gets hit, your ship loses much of its combat effectiveness.

>[sensor rules] But how about a simple set of tasks and modifier
>tables to add to a role-playing situation.

My draft Military Combat System has a simplified set of sensor rules for
combat situations. The "quick" version looks something like this:

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
When a ship wishes to fire, 
compare Signal = (Firing ship sensor rating) + (Target Signature) to the 
following table to determine if a sensor lock occurs:

Range        passive/LIDAR        active signal         
            needed for lock        needed for lock
Impact          10.0                     9.5                       
Point-Blank     11.5                    11.0                    
Very Short      12.0                    11.5                          
Short           12.5                    12.0                      
Medium          13.0                    12.5                   
Long            13.5                    13.0                     
Extreme         14.0                    13.5                  

If the sensor operator makes a succesful Formidable (3d) roll against
his (sensor skill + int), increase the sensitivity of all the ship's
sensors by 0.5 for the duration of the turn. If the ship only has one
operational sensor decrease the sensitivity by 0.5 (since it must use
the sensor both for tracking and scanning.) Targets that are hiding
not firing weapons have their signature reduced by 0.5. 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The ranges are ranges in my military combat system - in T4 terms, 
"Short", "Medium", "Long" and "Extreme" are the four T4 range bands.
(I can forward you the whole MCS if you're interested - Akins spreadsheets
in later version do the conversion automatically.) 

As you can see, a big LIDAR can get fire control locks out to quite long
ranges; and a PEMS-13.5 will do fairly well for fire out to medium range.
A 13.5 or 14 is about the right passive sensor for a small warship, depending
on how much money you want to spend and what the mission is.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:17:08 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Ararat class corvette (very long...sorry)

>Carry your 20 troops as "extra troops", rather than as ship's troops. 
>That saves you a couple of command positions (which saves you a couple
>of bridge workstations).

I would say that troops carried like that are troops that can't function
effectively on the ship - ground-only troops, that would (for example)
lack the coordination and training to deploy to defend the ship against
borders, or even for non-routine boarding of other vessels. (Think of the
command positions as being for a Marine officer, and the workstation being
a position for someone who coordinates operations between the ship and the
troops.)

>3.  Beef up the sensor suite. [To a PEMS-14]

This is a tough call, because it's expensive; depends what the mission of
the ship is. If it always deploys with a fleet, or in high-population systems
with native traffic control, it might get by with the 13.5 - it can still
see out to the 100-diameter limit pretty easily.

Or - if you must have a big search sensor - buy the PEMS-14 as a 
scanner-only (not useable for firecontrol, just for finding targets) and
buy a couple more (cheap) LIDARs, and maybe a tracker-only (fire-control)
PEMS-13.5

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:29:58 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

From: JFZeigler@aol.com
> *A relatively dense, dark, cool cloud of dust and gas, containing an unusually
> high concentration of complex molecules.  Typical "incubator" for new stars.
> A canonical example is the Coal Sack.  Remember that the usual portrayal
> of a "nebula" in SF is way wrong -- they're nowhere near as thick as you see
> on Star Trek :-).  The center of even a dense molecular cloud is still the
> next best thing to a hard vacuum.

	True, but still enough to spoil accurate astronomical observations, 
which still give them a certain value as plot devices. If I am not 
mistaken, you can easily postulate a sector-wide dust cloud such that 
observations through it are generally spoiled. You can see where 
brilliant stars behind are, but not real details.

>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
Carlos Alos-Ferrer: Mathematician, Geonee-maker.

Seems our numbers are increasing (sorry, I am a 
mathematical-nationalist ;-) )

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:34:54 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Elder Races

> From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>

> Traveller sources have hinted at other races during or before that 
> time period.

> Does anyone else have any references to other star-farers or elder 
> races from canonical Traveller sources?
> 
> Did other elder races exist?  Did they have jumpdrives, or were they 
> stuck to sublight speeds?  Did they cover one world/system, or did 
> they have an extended stellar society?
> 
> What are your thoughts?

	In the GDW adventure Knightfall, the PCs get to explore a lost 
shimmering city of....

	.... THE PRIMORDIALS ... (fanfare)

	which, IIRC, is portal-linked to several systems across the Galaxy. 
In the Referee-side notes, it is clearly specified that they had 
nothing to do with the Ancients. Their technology was, what? TL 
20-something? Gadgets included relativity pistols and the like.
	I think that it was said that they preceded the Ancients.

	Even though I am not very worried with canon, I would say that 
Knightfall (with his Massilia sector UWPs) *is* canon.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:07:49 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Elder Races

Well this isn't canon (but I like being canon fodder anyway) so....

IMTU, there is archeological evidence of a starfaring race that covered 
the known area of the galaxy at least 1 million years ago.  Little is 
known (wink) about them, except that they exhibited high tech, possibly 
F or G, but appear to have used sublight ships.  The prevelant 
hypothesis for this, which has some archeological support, is that they 
were very long lived, possibly measuring lifespans in centuries.  The 
popular term for them is the Predecessors.  Researchers call them PR-1 
(Prior Race 1).  There is a theory that they seeded various races about 
the galaxy, but no hard evidence exists for this.

Jim

- ----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:42:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Traveller's Elder Races
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

Friends,

One of the posts from Tuesday, 12/01 (yesterday) caught my eyes, and 
brought up a great question about other star-faring races before or 
during the time of the Ancients.  I have to admit that it's kinda 
boring to me to have artifacts from "long lost civilizations" all 
belong to either a hyper-psionic mutant Droyne or one of his 400 
eugenically enhanced offspring circa -300,000.

Traveller sources have hinted at other races during or before that 
time period.

In IG's Alien Archives, one of the races (I'm at work and can't 
remember the name:  I think it's the Providers, but I'm not sure) 
were transplanted to their current homeworld in -500,000.  Their 
original world was about to be destroyed by natural phenomenon, so 
they sent sample of their lifeforms to other world using STL 
transport.

In GT: Behind the Claw, one of the minor races (again, memory lapse, 
but the name started with a T) was discovered to have been 
transplanted to their current homeworld from somewhere else in 
- -600,000.  Who did it?

Does anyone else have any references to other star-farers or elder 
races from canonical Traveller sources?

Did other elder races exist?  Did they have jumpdrives, or were they 
stuck to sublight speeds?  Did they cover one world/system, or did 
they have an extended stellar society?

What are your thoughts?

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 02:25:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: alpha centauri

In mail you write:

> In looking at a catalogue of stars within 50ly I noticed most (all?) had 
> stars with luminosities that seemed too bright or too dim to support 
> human-like life.  I THOUGHT Alpha Centauri might be OK, but then I read 
> in a couple of places that binary (or trinary) systems were unsuitable - 
> but I am afraid I still don't understand why.

The problem is that planets are thought to be less likely to form in a
multiple star system. The forming stars would tend to eat more of the
initial gas cloud.

Also, you have the problems of orbit stability. Close in to any given
star in a multiple star system, you can have an orbit that's
essentially unaffected by the other stars in the system. Orbits are
going to be either unstable, or at least subject to *wild* climate
variations from this point until you are far enough out that the two
(or more) stars can be treated as a single gravity source.

So unless the habitable zone is in the inner or outer "stable orbit"
zones, then planets in the habitable zone aren't possible.

Even if a stable orbit *was* possible, you get temperature variations
due to the changing distances to the two or more stars. And these tend
to be large enough that life is unlikely.

> Does anyone know if there is a "rule of thumb" scientists use when 
> looking for stars that might support habitable planets?

Main "rule" is that the star have a lifespan long enough for life to
evolve. That means that type O, B, and A stars are out. Then you
eliminate stars that aren't on the main sequence. That's because such
stars are either still forming their planetary system (if any) or they
are very old, and won't stay in their current condition for more than a
million years or so.

For example, stars tend to become red giants when they near the end of
their lifespan. In the process, they expand a *lot* and engulf inner
planets, and if they haven't engulfed any habitable planets, those
planets are now way too hot for life. Planets that were farther out and
are now at reasonable temperatures won't have time to develop life, as
red giants last less than a million years. Then they either collapse
"peacefully" into a white dwarf, or go supernova. The ones that go
supernova leave behind pulsars or black holes.

> Is the CT/MT universe more generous in handing out habitable life 
> systems than current scientific theory dictates?

Well, one thing to consider is that there's a big difference between a
planet that can be lived on, and one that has native life forms. Even
so, Traveller does seem to be a bit on the generous side.

> One other question, I've watched one episode of B5 (I have no idea what 
> it is about), but I noticed they have characters they refer to as 
> "Centauris".  Are these supposed to be bipedal life forms from the 
> Centauri system, or descendents of earth colonists?

They are most definitely *not* humans. In one of the first episodes it
was mentioned that they'd conned Earth into thinking that they were
human and that Earth was a lost colony. That didn't last too long.

In another episode, we find out that the Centauri male sex organs are a
sort of tentacle multiple feet long. And very prehensile (Londo is
caught using one of his to cheat at cards :-) They have 6 or 8 of them.

Do recall that "Centauri" in the name of a star means that it is in the
constellation Centaurus. And there are a *lot* of stars in that
constellation. Some of which are hundreds of light years away.

"Alpha" <constellation name> signifies the brightest star in the
constellation (as seen from Earth). Alpha Centauri is bright because
it's close. On the other hand, Beta Centauri is a B giant hundreds or
thousands of light years away...

There's no indication *which* star in the constellation the Centauri
are from. But it's very unlikely to be Alpha Centauri, because they'd
have visted us long ago (and likely conquered us, the way they did the
Narns). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:20:51 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: PE questions

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> Okay, the preparations for my PE PBEM campaign are progressing faster than
> I expected. I have a few questions regarding PE which I would appreciate some
> feedback/opinions on:
>
> 1 - Use of Weapons of Mass destruction: Using these causes a loss of
> prestigue. Does this apply only to first use? (ie does retailation in kind also
> cause a loss of prestigue).

Good question.  IMHO, even retaliatory use should cause a loss of
prestige.  But the problem is, the PE with less prestige who retaliates
in kind, will lose all of its prestige before the attacking PE.  I think
the first use of such weapons should generate a greater prestige
loss than retaliatoty strikes.  But after the first exchange, I'd treat
them equally.  (BTW, I can't find the secton in PE that discusses this,
could you point it out to me?  Haven't cracked PE open in a while).

> 2 - Resources: There are several modifiers to the resource score for a planet
> based on it trade code and starport. Do these apply only to initial generation or
> when a planet reaches them (eg does a world's resource score increase when
> it builds an A class starport?).

Initial only, on my opinion.  Since trade will be calculated separately.

> Also, I _might_ (heavy emphasis on the might) be ready to start the campaign
> in a week or so, and would be open to "expressions of interest" from potential
> players.

Very strong expression of interest here.  Although I rarely get to use it,
PE is probably my favorite T4 product.

All I want for Christmas is my own Pocket Empire . . .

Have you looked at the work Jo Grant did use Galactic to assist with
PE?  I think I have a copy somewhere if you're interested.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:15:47 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Another astrography question

Folks,

I'm working on mapping known astronomical phenomena onto the Charted
Space map.  It isn't immediately obvious how to derive the position on the
flat Traveller map from celestial coordinates.  It *appears* that equatorial
rather than galactic coordinates were used, and that right-ascension and
distance are the significant parameters.  I'd like a reality check, though.

Is anyone else who has spent time on this problem willing to drop me a line?

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:24:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:

>Here is a new twist on this thread.
>
>We can argue and get twisted up over our own personal belief systems.

Again :-(

>OR.
>
>Why don't we look at what kind of beliefs can exist within our common
>frame of reference ( i.e. Traveller ).
>
>Now that is said, lets get to work.

Been there, edited that ;-)

<PLUG>

BITS released 101 Religions not so very long ago. This is mainly
humanocentric but does have an Aslan religion (and possibly a Vargr and a
Droyne one IIRC). It was carefully edited to try and make material playable
and non-inflammatory.

I can't add much more - as I was involved in it - but a large number of TML
and TWG readers contributed, co-ordinated by Tim Collinson.

</PLUG>

Unfortunately, I suspect someone will be offended. :-(

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:16:11 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: WARNING! Bad seller!

"Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com> wrote:

>For those of you who are new to the TML, this is the first time in the
>years I've been a TML member that this has happened. I do NOT hold
>anyone else, including the TML administrator, responsible for Joel's
>actions and greatly appreciate the character and helpfulness of all
>the TML members I've had dealings with in the past.

BITS maintains an archive of old Traveller material - contact Andy Lilly at
bits@bits.org.uk and he may be able to help find some old stuff (for ex I
have recently acquired near mint Tarsus, Beltstrike and The Flaming Eye).
Tarsus and Beltstrike were 10 each - $15 - and Flaming Eye cost me 17GBP.

Sad to hear about this fraud.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:40:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

- ---SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, I suspect someone will be offended. :-(


far be it from me!



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4+ ?tg ru++ 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1228
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 2 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1229



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Joel Pratt (Bad Seller?)
RE: WARNING! Bad seller!
Ararat class Corvette
Re: Traveller's Elder Races
Jump-6...  again
Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Fast Couriers
GT Patrol Cruiser
GT Ship - IN Fleet Courier
Re: G:T misjump chances
Knightfall & Elder Traveller Races
Re: Traveller's Elder Races
Re: GT Patrol Cruiser
WMD in PE questions
Re: Traveller's Elder Races
Dumber than Mud (OT)
Pelicans and Protectorates
Re: Jump-6 courier network

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:46:49 -0000 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Joel Pratt (Bad Seller?)

I've been reminded (thanks to Dom Reynolds) that Joel posted an email during
his auction announcing "a severe mail service/hard drive glitch" which he
hoped to have had permanently fixed. Therefore, I'm sending him a registered
snailmail letter explaining my beliefs and actions taken. I'll post any
reply he sends. Hopefully, I'll be proven dead wrong and we can all enjoy my
"eating crow" as well as future auctions by Joel.

Apologies to those of you who have no interest in this but I believe a
person's reputation and trustworthiness are very, very important. If Joel's
lack of communications and delivery is due to events beyond his control, he
deserves to have his name cleared ASAP just as much as I deserve to receive
auction items I've paid for.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:51:11 -0000 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: WARNING! Bad seller!

SD Mooney posted: 
> 
> "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com> wrote:
> 
> >For those of you who are new to the TML, this is the first 
> time in the
> >years I've been a TML member that this has happened. I do NOT hold
> >anyone else, including the TML administrator, responsible for Joel's
> >actions and greatly appreciate the character and helpfulness of all
> >the TML members I've had dealings with in the past.
> 
> BITS maintains an archive of old Traveller material - contact 
> Andy Lilly at
> bits@bits.org.uk and he may be able to help find some old 
> stuff (for ex I
> have recently acquired near mint Tarsus, Beltstrike and The 
> Flaming Eye).
> Tarsus and Beltstrike were 10 each - $15 - and Flaming Eye 
> cost me 17GBP.
> 
> Sad to hear about this fraud.

Thanks for the info, Dom. Re: Joel, the final judgement hasn't been made
yet.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:34:19 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Ararat class Corvette

I'm posing this here since most of the replies came off of the TML. Thanks
to all that critiqued the Ararat. All of the information from the replies
has caused me to modify the design, for the better. Rather than fill more
bandwith with the re-design, I hope to have the ship, with deck plans, on my
webpage by the weekend. Please check then to see the results.

If any of the people that responded want a copy of the A. Akin's spread
sheet of the final design, please drop me a line and I'll mail them to you.

Again, thanks to all that responded,

Mike Peters, Letterworks@CITnet.com
webpage:"Jump Point" http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's
sake. The great affair is to move."
Robert Louis Stevenson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:28:55 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Elder Races

Here's a copy of something I posted to the Space Religion thread. I have
intorduced a number of races between the Ancients period and the Vilani
emergence. I'm also beginning a group of adventures where a I'm expanding on
the theme laid out below. I see this as a way of keeping one of the more
interesting element of CT "alive" without breaking canon (NOT that that
really worries me in my games, but these adventures might be interesting
enough to share and I am trying to keep them close to the OU).

I've also toyed with the fact the maybe Grandfather himself is the product
of an "uplift" by an even older race. I'm not sure I can completely buy a
single, "spontanious" mutation of the scope that Grandfather represents.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --------------------
You know I wonder that no-one said this before. I've been toying with the
idea that Grandfather lied! I mean we have his word that he wiped out his
children after getting pissed that they were ignoreing him, then build his
pocket universe so that he could have a little privacy to do his research.

What if he lied?

- - What if the children were wiped out by "Someone or thing else" and
Grandfather build his hole and pulled it in after him to hide? Might explain
his quickness to destroy the ship that carried the humans into his PU.

- - Likewise, what if some of the kids did escape, and are licking their
wounds somewhere, waiting to find Granddaddy'shiding spot?

- - Or are waiting for their "weapons", the Big Six, to mature enough to go
after him.

- - Or maybe, the Big Six are Granddaddy's defenses?

- - Or his weapons against "Someone or thing else"?

Hummm, who said that the Ancients lost their kick when their secret was
revealed way back?
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---------------------------

Mike Peters, Letterworks@CITnet.com
webpage:"Jump Point" http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's
sake. The great affair is to move."
Robert Louis Stevenson

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 9:56 AM
Subject: Traveller's Elder Races


Friends,

One of the posts from Tuesday, 12/01 (yesterday) caught my eyes, and
brought up a great question about other star-faring races before or
during the time of the Ancients.  I have to admit that it's kinda
boring to me to have artifacts from "long lost civilizations" all
belong to either a hyper-psionic mutant Droyne or one of his 400
eugenically enhanced offspring circa -300,000.

<snipped>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:56:57 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Jump-6...  again

Two things.

Many years ago, on first reading MT, I found it intuitively obvious that J-6
ships in general would enjoy a huge benefit for many applications.  However, I
got the impression that the Imperium was VIGOROUSLY engaged in suppressing the
use of this technology.  The Emperor (or the Secret Masters) want J-6 to be
their private advantage, and since they own the boards of most Megacorps, they
pretty much get what they want.  IMTU, at least.

"What's that?  You want a custom-built J-6 yacht?  I'm sorry, Mr. Zillionaire.
While that technology is _theoretically_ possible, GSbAG doesn't use it.  Not
profitable.  We don't have the facilities or the parts.  You might try Kleon's
Kustom Kruisers, down the street..."

And, on a related note, I've been looking over the Reft Sector lately, and
wondering how the Island subsectors got explored and settled.  There is no J-6
route to them from either "bank" of the rift.  I can imagine a special scout
cruiser modified for 2xJ-4...  using 80% of hull volume for fuel!  (I assume
these worlds were settled long before the drop tank fiasco of 1105.)

But I can't imagine a _colony ship_ outfitted for J-4 twice.  Who would do
such a thing?  How many colonists?  At what cost?  Does anyone have any
history...  or any bright ideas?  --S

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:59:07 -0500
From: "Glenn E. Myers" <glenn.myers@mailhub.ansys.com>
Subject: Re: Potential GM Aid: Rocket eBook from NuvoMedia

Hey ho,

Bruce Johnson and other Newton fans may appreciate this... Has anyone
seen the Webmate/Macmate portable upcoming products? I hope they aren't
vapourware. They would be great game aids. More capable than the Palm
Pilot, lighter than a laptop. The Newton lives!

Check out 

http://macweek.zdnet.com/1998/11/29/rfi.html 

for more.

______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 20:03:38 +0000
From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

At 23:24 01/12/98 +0000, Dom wrote:

><PLUG>
>
>BITS released 101 Religions not so very long ago. This is mainly
>humanocentric but does have an Aslan religion (and possibly a Vargr and a
>Droyne one IIRC). It was carefully edited to try and make material playable
>and non-inflammatory.
>
>I can't add much more - as I was involved in it - but a large number of TML
>and TWG readers contributed, co-ordinated by Tim Collinson.
>

Did not Steve Daniels also contribute <ewg>




Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:08:22 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>>> Which is a GDP of 15.000 credits per head. I think this is increadibly high.
>>> Where does this number come from? (I guess this is a canon number)
>
> >It's reasonable.
> [justification of reasonableness]
>
> The problem is that there are also a wide range of other values
> for this (and related numbers) that are also reasonable.  One
> of the problems here has been that people run through numbers
> that are "reasonable" to prove the something in the background
> has to be a certain way (piracy can exist, X-boats have to
> be jump-6, etc.).  However, this only proves that is it "reasonable"
> if things were that way (ie they "could" be that way).  Not that
> another way is unreasonable.  Put a lot of faith in "analyses"
> but most I've seen very few that didn't rely on estimations of
> numbers that couldn't give another conclusion with another
> set of "reasonable" numbers.

True.  My point was that the estimate that was being made fit in within
a factor of two of the other estimates that had been made, and therefore
seemed to be a good starting place for discussion.  The arguments being
made probably stay pretty much the same for a GDP-per-capita from kCr 12  
to kCr 30 per head, but I haven't paid that much attention.  

Maybe someone thinks that a better estimate is kCr 5 per head, and that
that makes something in the background break.  That's fine, and if true
then they should start from that point and justify it.  The alternative
is not to make any estimate, and argue in circles.

To be honest, I've been ignoring most of the fast courier thread.  I
treat X-boat routes as routes the Tukera long lines and regular xmail
follow.  Faster communications have usually been available through
various means when necessary.  

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 18:36:42 -1000
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT Patrol Cruiser

400ton Patrol Cruiser                       Tech Level 12

Specifications:
400ton Streamlined hull, (Heavy Compartmentalisation), Sealed
Basic Stealth                               450DR, PD 4
Basic Emissions Cloaking                    +9 size mod
1 Hardened Basic Bridge                     119.989 MCr
1 Engineering Units                         37500 HP, Turrets 1200 HP
1 Utility Units                             EMass 979.08 tons
42 Maneuver Units                           LMass 1039.08 tons
20 Powered Jump Units                       EMass 771.08 tons (less
fuel)
0 Unpowered Jump Units                      LMass 831.08 tons (less
fuel)
160 Jump Fuel Units
0 Fuel Processor Units
10 Staterooms, (10 Crew, 0 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage)
4 Low Berth Units (16 capacity, 0 Low Passage)
0 Passenger Units (0 passengers)
0 Sickbays
0 Labs
0 Nuclear Damper (0 miles)
0 Meson Screen
12 Cargo
0 Power Plant Units (0 MW output)
0 Capacitor Units (Holds 0 MWH)
0 Unpowered ContraGrav Units (0 tons CG lift)

Performance:
Jump 4
Air Speed 3342 mph
Acceleration - 4.29G Empty, 4.04G Loaded,
               5.45G Empty (less Fuel), 5.05G Loaded (less Fuel)

Weaponry:
4 external turret hardpoints          2 x 3 405Mj Laser Turrets
0 bay mounts                          2 x 3 Missile Turrets
0 internal turret hardpoints
0 spaces for fixed weapons

Carried Craft:
1 x 30 tons capacity Vehicle Bay for 30ton Ships Boat
1 x 2 tons capacity Space Dock for Wheeled ATV

Crew:
1 x Command      1 x Engineering 5 x Troops
1 x Helm         4 x Gunnery     0 x Science/Lab
1 x Navigation   0 x Stewards    0 x Flight
2 x Commo/Sensor 0 x Medical
0 x Screens      0 x Computer    Total Crew = 15


Comments welcome!

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 18:37:58 -1000
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT Ship - IN Fleet Courier

Following is a Gurps Traveller conversion of the Jump 6 Imperrial Navy
Fleet Courier from CT Fighting Ships, created using my new spreadsheet
(I will release it if I can get permission from SJG). Please feel free
to critique the design (and tell me if there any errors!).

- ------8<--------------------------------------------------------------

400ton Fleet Courier                        Tech Level 12

Specifications:
400ton Streamlined hull, (Heavy Compartmentalisation), Sealed
Radical Stealth                             100DR, PD 4
Radical Emissions Cloaking                  +9 size mod
1 Unhardened Basic Bridge                   185.291 MCr
1 Engineering Units                         37500 HP, Turrets 1200 HP
1 Utility Units                             EMass 812.57 tons
16 Maneuver Units                           LMass 820.07 tons
28 Powered Jump Units                       EMass 500.57 tons (less
fuel)
0 Unpowered Jump Units                      LMass 508.07 tons (less
fuel)
240 Jump Fuel Units
2 Fuel Processor Units (15 hrs to process)
6 Staterooms, (6 Crew, 0 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage)
0 Low Berth Units (0 capacity, 0 Low Passage)
0 Passenger Units (0 passengers)
0 Sickbays
0 Labs
0 Nuclear Damper (0 miles)
0 Meson Screen
1.5 Cargo
0 Power Plant Units (0 MW output, 0 MW excess)
0 Capacitor Units (Holds 0 MWH)
0 Unpowered ContraGrav Units (0 tons CG lift)

Performance:
Jump 6
Air Speed 2063 mph
Acceleration - 1.97G Empty, 1.95G Loaded, 3.2G Empty (less Fuel),
               3.15G Loaded (less Fuel)

Weaponry:
4 external turret hardpoints         2 x 3 405Mj Laser Turrets
0 bay mounts                         2 x 3 Missile Turrets
0 internal turret hardpoints
0 spaces for fixed weapons

Carried Craft:

Crew:
1 x Command       1 x Engineering  0 x Troops
1 x Helm          4 x Gunnery      0 x Science/Lab
1 x Navigation    0 x Stewards     0 x Flight
1 x Commo/Sensor  0 x Medical
0 x Screens       0 x Computer     Total Crew = 9


Comments/critisism welcome!

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:31:27 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: G:T misjump chances

>>>>
G:T misjump chances are simply too high.

I would suggest that the chances listed are the odds of doing it all in a
20 minute time frame - if you use the 'Trading Energy for Skill' rules out
of Gurps Basic as 'Trading Time for Skill', then you can (by taking things
nice and easy) have an average crew (skill 12-14) safely jump, barring crit
failures.

Of course, you need a crack crew to do the much more difficult task of
managing a jump out in combat.

Ian Whitchurch
>>>>
My understanding of using skill rolls is that they are not used for
routine tasks that you do every day succesfully; they are used to
represent the task during times of stress.

ex:  You wouldn't make a skill roll for walking down the sidewalk
during the day with noone bothering  you, nice weather, not
intoxicated, etc.
You _would_ make a skill roll if intoxicated, distracted (someone
shooting at you with an FGMP-15), x2 gravity, freezing rain, etc.

So, unless there is something going on during a particular Jump
setup, I wouldn't make them routinely roll for it.  In other words I
wouldn't bother having them roll if it is a jump that goes from and to
systems the ship has been to before, the ship is in good condition,
purified fuel, plenty of time to calculate Jump parameters (or
especially using course tapes from the Starport), with no outside
interference, and beyond the 100d limit.  When to make rolls is when
one of those factors is no longer perfect.  Of course, as a ref's plot
device it can always be important (the Star Trek standard "subspace
anomaly" can always occur for those annoying players who insist on
making sure the ship is in perfect condition).  Therefore, having an
"opposed" task makes some sense so that the players think it is a
Routine roll, but the ref knows that it is really a roll at a
Formidable level (or whatever).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:58:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Knightfall & Elder Traveller Races

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

>In the GDW adventure Knightfall, the PCs get to explore a lost 
>shimmering city of....
>
> .... THE PRIMORDIALS ... (fanfare)
>
>which, IIRC, is portal-linked to several systems across the Galaxy.
>In the Referee-side notes, it is clearly specified that they had
>nothing to do with the Ancients. Their technology was, what? TL
>20-something? Gadgets included relativity pistols and the like.
> I think that it was said that they preceded the Ancients.
>
>Even though I am not very worried with canon, I would say that 
>Knightfall (with his Massilia sector UWPs) *is* canon.
>

Special request:  Does anyone know where I can get more of this 
information?  If there are any websites that can provide some 
insight, I would greatly appreciate the knowledge.  Also, does anyone 
know where I can pick up a copy of the Knightfall adventure?

Thanks for your time,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 16:09:37 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Elder Races

At 05:11 PM 12/2/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>Friends,
>>
>>One of the posts from Tuesday, 12/01 (yesterday) caught my eyes, and
>>brought up a great question about other star-faring races before or
>>during the time of the Ancients.  I have to admit that it's kinda
>>boring to me to have artifacts from "long lost civilizations" all
>>belong to either a hyper-psionic mutant Droyne or one of his 400
>>eugenically enhanced offspring circa -300,000.
>>
>>Traveller sources have hinted at other races during or before that
>>time period.
>>
>
>Spoiler  and IMTU Warning.
>
>
>
>
>I found it HIGHLY unlikely that no other race would have spread throughout
>the galaxy long before humans/major rcaes/ancients given how easy it is to
>refuel etc and the timespans we deal with. I also found it very unlikely
>that no oher intelligent races would have developed in other eras at other
>places in the galaxy given how many races (minor and major) there are in
>Traveller known space (a minuscule portion of the galaxy).
>
>To solve this and somewhat stay in canon I decided that hyperspace itself
>was an artifact of some vastly intelligent race and that it worked only
>around known space and in a corridor towards the galactic core (the Zhos
>core expeditions are in canon). This also deals with the fact that there
>are no easy explanations to how hyperspace works etc in canon sources and
>this could IMHO only be possible if it was not a naturally ocurring
>phenomena (physicists would get into deep trouble if they couldn't rely on
>the cosmological principle - everything near us is more or less the same as
>everywhere else).
>
>Finally the weird mutation that created this supersmart Droyne I found
>extremely implausible if it was natural. I decided that the preancients
>created Yaskoydroy as part of a plot between two factions among them. When
>Yaskoydroy finally found out about what he was and what hyperspace was he
>got REALLY frightened; hid killed all children, destroyed all works, gave
>j-drives to all major races and hid in a pocket universe. I guess those
>preancients were/are pretty fearful huh.

Perhaps it was the Lylmik (sp?) and Remillard...  After all, they were
around 6 million years earlier...

;-)



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:20:29 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Patrol Cruiser

In a message dated 12/2/98 12:38:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
craig_barnett@iname.com writes:

<< Comments welcome! >>

How about deck plans....?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:22:59 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: WMD in PE questions

steve daniels wrote:
> 
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> 
> > Okay, the preparations for my PE PBEM campaign are progressing faster than
> > I expected. I have a few questions regarding PE which I would appreciate some
> > feedback/opinions on:
> >
> > 1 - Use of Weapons of Mass destruction: Using these causes a loss of
> > prestigue. Does this apply only to first use? (ie does retailation in kind also
> > cause a loss of prestigue).
> 
> Good question.  IMHO, even retaliatory use should cause a loss of
> prestige.  But the problem is, the PE with less prestige who retaliates
> in kind, will lose all of its prestige before the attacking PE.  I think
> the first use of such weapons should generate a greater prestige
> loss than retaliatoty strikes.  But after the first exchange, I'd treat
> them equally.  (BTW, I can't find the secton in PE that discusses this,
> could you point it out to me?  Haven't cracked PE open in a while).
> 
On page 87, PE states that "any Pocket Empire known to have thrown
nuclear and biological weapons at an _unsuspecting_ [emphasis added]
world will be regarded as untrustworthy...."

Seems to me that retaliation is not as big a problem as first use
(during a given turn).  I would interpret this as follows:

1.  First use of WMD by the attacking PE causes a loss of prestige equal
to the Attack DM of the weapon.

2.  Retaliatory use of WMD by the target PE results in a possible loss
of prestige.  Subtract the Attack DM of the attacking PE's WMD from the
Attack DM of the target PE's WMD to determine loss of prestige for the
target PE.  Thus, if I retaliate in kind, using equivalent weapons, I
take no hit.  OTOH, if I use my TL 14 bioweapon (Attack DM of +4) to
retaliate for your use of TL 7 non-persistent nerve agent (Attack DM of
+1), this will be seen as overkill, and will subtract 3 from my prestige
(you, of course, will subtract 1 from your prestige for the initial
escalation).  Under no circumstances can a PE _gain_ prestige from
retaliatory use of WMD.


<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:45:26 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller's Elder Races

Entirely IMTU and non-canon:

I am using an alien race like the famous greys as a race that became
starfaring after the Ancients Final War, but before the Vilani (and by some
time... say c-20,000 Imperial)... Their homeworld, etc is a great mystery, but
they've payed visits to Terra, Vland, Sylea, Zhant but always stay just beyond
the ability to detect them, yet for some reason seem to always leave clues to
their presence, as if on purpose.  Maybe they were an experiment of one of the
draysaskin.  Whatever the case, they have interest in humans (of all sub
races).  Some claim it's all a manipulation of (insert fav conspirator here:
templars, Illuminati, Hivers, Chthulu, politicians, the religious right, etc
etc) and/or bogus.

Further, there are a few other "elder races" as well.  (I just like the idea
of Babylon 5's First Ones too much to leave things solely to the "younger"
races).  Some have died, some have gone to other galaxies.  Many ruins are
mixed among the ancients (in fact ancient sites were happily inhabited by more
than a couple).  Most have erased all evidence of their existence (or been
erased themselves).  Some have hung around and are watching the younger races
(and maybe even interfering now and then).  Most are gone.
 
Some I've based on Star Control races (the Chenjesu and Ur-Quan,
particularly), also the "ancients" from Starflight.  Some of these, use
alternate tech ftl (and commo) from the original Fire, Fusion, and Steel.
Subspace and stargates/wormholes only so far, though i've been tossing around
introducing Stutterwarp.  Nothing like having my players exclaim ("how the
hell did they do that??")

The few that remain in the Charted Space are way above being affected (or even
noticed) by Virus, though the Black War and Collapse caught the attention of a
couple...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:57:23 +1300
From: pbroeder@wave.co.nz
Subject: Dumber than Mud (OT)

WARNING!! this message is best viewed to the sounds of "Rule Britannia"
(1)
(yes, it's going to be one of  THOSE messages)

Yesterday afternoon the New Zealand government again proved that they
are dumber than mud when they decided that despite New Zealand being a
maratime nation almost solely dependant on sea trade for it's earnings
and having the fourth largest territorial waters in the world we could
get by (somehow) with a "2 Frigate Navy" (2).

This has had the Immediate result of P*ss*ng the Australians off. ( a
bad thing - unfortunately)

On the plus side, we are upgrading HMNZS Charles Upham (finally) (3)
have agreed to fund 2 extra rifle companies for the army and lease/buy
28 F-16A/B's for the Air Force.
The F-16's are coming cheap though.(4)

OBTRAV:(5) I'm sure that in the core areas of the 3I there will be
systems like this. say a trinary star system with a starport of B, a
rich trade code a resaerch base in the far companion,  extensive
asteroidal mining in the outer system, Oort belt and close companion....
with 2 SDB's , 6 gigs, and 28 9ton fighters to defend it all.
This is how piracy survives in the 3I (6)
Just off hand does anyone know of a system B***64*-*  Ag  Ri   Trinary
in the core sectors somewhere? I'd like to develop it.

OBTRAV: Will politicians remain this blind and/or dumb over the next
3,600 years??


(1) There is no New Zealand version - YET.

(2) "2 Frigate navy" is a contradiction in terms. To keep the ships in
order- more importantly keep crews for them - It takes 3 ships, minimum.

(3) This should have been started over a year ago - the papers said  it
needed extensive refiting when we bought the ship- why is everybody
acting like they've just discovered that now and screaming "LEMON" to
anyone who'll listen???

(4) I will not comment on this beyond stating that the defence minister
has said for the record that "They are the Best Strike aircraft of their
kind int the world."

(5) See, there is a point to this rant after all.

(6) I am NOT trying to reopen the piracy debate- It exists IMTU
regardless of yours.

Jonathan B.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:57:32 +1300
From: pbroeder@wave.co.nz
Subject: Pelicans and Protectorates

Just a couple of quick questions here from G:T.
I was flicking through my copy of G:T this morning and saw a few things
on the map on page 6-7 that I hadn't seen before.
What is the Pelican Nebula? I've never heard of it before and is it
covered in the G:T aliens vol.1?

Where has the Julian Protectorate gone? It doesn't appear on the map and
it's not in the Library data.

Thanks,
Jonathan B.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:04:12 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:41:29 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>

>>Yeah, but the occaison chance to make a big killing won't support
>>and X-boat kind of system.  It will support hiring a ship on
>>a one time basis to carry the message.

>In the Imperium, we're probably talking about stock trading on subsector
>wide and sector wide levels. Every extra hour would count. As far as I know,
>canon is silent on the stock markets of the Imperium.

Well, aside from the fact that most people don't buy stocks based
on the hourly price, the fact is that, since it will take weeks
to get your order to the world in question either way, the trader
needs to have some way of dealing with the delay.

>For Delgado's stock traders, it could be very useful to find out that
>Makhidkarun has announced a major new product line even just hours or days
>before the news hits the local markets.

One might arrange to have a ship take news of such things to
a certain destination (though I suspect that simply having
a local representative present to buy stock on site would
make more sense) but I don't see that as supporting an X-boat
level of service.

>Just because individual traders might not gain too much doesn't mean that
>megacorporate traders wouldn't.

The question isn't wether megacorps would benefit, the point is
whether they would benefit often enough to support a X-boat
kind of jump-6 system.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1229
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 2 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1230



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Jump-6... again
Re: Jump-6 courier network I
Re: Jump-6 courier network III
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: Fast Courier Services
Re: X-boats
Re: Megacorps (was re: Validity of the Canon Traveller trading Model)
Re: Megacorps
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: GT docking costs
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Fast courier services
Re: The Islands Clusters (was Re: Jump-6...  again)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:00:59 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Jump-6... again

StevenA201 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And, on a related note, I've been looking over the Reft Sector lately, and
wondering how the Island subsectors got explored and settled.  There is no J-6
route to them from either "bank" of the rift.  I can imagine a special scout
cruiser modified for 2xJ-4...  using 80% of hull volume for fuel!  (I assume
these worlds were settled long before the drop tank fiasco of 1105.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The Islands subsectors, as described in the CT Adventure _Trillion Credit
Squadron_, were settled by the European Space Administration
Long Range Colonization project - an expedition using sublight
multi-generation colony ships, launched before jump drives were even
invented. 

There is some speculation that they were deliberately sent so far,
and told not to contact anyone on the way, so they could set up
a secret settlement of humanity far from home - so that no matter
how bad a catastrophe engulfed Earth and nearby systems, humanity
would survive. The threat must have seemed great to justify such
a project.

What threat could this be? Some have theorized that the threat was
the Vilani Imperium, supposedly not contacted yet - somehow the
policy makers on Earth knew that a massive chunk of the local
galaxy was already owned.

The Islands Clusters in TCS were designed for a fleets-vs-fleets
strategic scenario, and the clusters were specifically mapped
so there would be definite boundries to the conflict. The history of
the clusters was written in an attempt to explain the presence of
people in the middle of the Great Rift, and TML'ers have speculated
from there.

That said, I'd wonder if the the circa-1105 Islands Clusters wouldn't
be home to more recognizable customs and societies than any other
place in known space. While they have been settled for some hundreds
of years, the original colonists were from combination coldsleep/generation
ships - some of the original colonists of the subsectors were from
pre-interstellar Earth - they were thousands of years out of time by the
time they awoke on New Home, and some of them had awoken during
the voyage as living reminders of society on distant Earth.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:16:45 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I

Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:30:31 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>>>Apart from the examples that Steven and Ian has provided
>>
>>Which I think support my postion, as I have mentioned in other posts.
>
>  If the thesis of the recent post "Economics of potential courier routes"
>(re Al Morai and the "trivial" expense of building a Marches-wide J-5+
>courier system) tends that way perhaps you could explain how?

Well, I don't remember exactly what was refering to what.  But
if you are refering to the various proposals that purport to
show that various large organizations could afford to build
a higher jump system with a small fraction (usually down
around 1% of their budgets)...
a) At least one of them, once you got down to net profit,
had a 5% difference.  A large corp most certainly cares if
their net profit changes by even 1%.
b) Most of the analyses are forced to make assumptions that,
while "reasonable" could also be reasonably made at values
that are quite different.
c) "a" and "b" are irrelvant anyway because no large corp
is going to spend even 1% (or 0.01%) of their budget on
something that they don't see a return for.  So the %age
of a corp's budget it would take to do it is irrelevant.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:29:38 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network III

>>Furthermore, if a more expensive ship it going to take the
>>message, they will either have to charge _everyone_ more to
>>take the message, or find some way of singling out only those
>>who wouldn't pay more and giving them a discount (a tricky
>>proposition at best).

If the ship is going to get there faster for the better
paying customers, then it will get there faster for
everyone.

>  There's two ways at least of doing roughly that. One is to offer
>the discounted service under terms that don't guarantee delivery
>by the scheduled date (re UPS)

> - this would be possible if the data
>required on a given trip took more "cargo" capacity than the ship
>had, although that seems unlikely given data storage density.

As someone (you?) pointed out.  This will never be a problem.

>Another
>is to provide faster service over long (out of sector) distances by
>sending it with the "larger-than-minimum-for-J-6" hull that a _parcel_
>service might send every month to clean up backlogs, bumps, and discount
>services. There might also be passengers* running steerage along with
>the Marches to Ilelish Economy parcels.

The point what that being able to carry less urgent mail would
help pay for the jump-6 network.  If you are sending it by
another route, then it won't help.

>>Will all the traffic along that route be willing to pay more for a
>>33% decrease in transit time?  Are messages that need the
>>increased speed freqent enough to justify the service?
>>That is debatable.

>  No and almost certainly yes, respectively.

Well, as I said, that is debatble.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:38:33 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:01:40 -0500, Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
[I think this is Aerron's.  I have trouble parsing his quoting
system....]
>>I don't know.  It really doesn't matter.  Large organizations don't
>>waste money on things because something else cost a lot more.  The
>>US government doesn't waste money on cars it can't justify a need
>>for because a tank costs so much.

>'Need' is relative. The question the Vice-Admirals in charge of Procurement
>Policy Planning will be asking is 'Will a Fleet of 7 main units, supporting
>units and 6 Fleet Couriers be more effective than a Fleet of 6 main units,
>supporting units and 6 + n Fleet Couriers', where n is the relative cost of
>a main unit and a Fleet Courier. It's a lot less painful if your Fleet
>Couriers replace frigates, for example.

The point I was making there is that there will be some valuation
of need.  Sure they might decide that a jump-6 X-boat network
will pay for itself in fleet effectiveness (though I don't
think so).  However, they won't pay for one because it is
"only 1% of the budget".  Thus, any analysis that only figures
out how much of the budget would need to be spent on something
hasn't proven anything.  It does establish that it would be
financially possible, but nothing more.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 07:25:51 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Fast Courier Services

> >...
> >>sooner or later they meet and the Zho finds out just what compromises
> >>were required to make a J6 battleship at TL14.
> >
> >  Ouch (IAC, the Zho's only make J5 stuff, but J-6 capital ships are
> >fairly pointless). Perhaps they save their limited J-6 construction 
> >for couriers and explorers for the Core Expeditions?
> >
> 
> IIRC the only way to leagally build a J6 ship at TL14 involves
> using one of the LBB#2 drive/hull combinations.

Build a ship with fuel for J6 and a J3+ drive, and you've got a J6 ship, of
sorts.

Do it with a J1 drive and you can build one at TL9!

Obviously such things are slow, but they still meet the requirements of
rift/border crossers - jump 6 parsecs without stopping to refuel.

Actually the Joes do have TL F worlds (such as Zhdant), just like the
Imperium has TL G worlds.  It's their standard stuff that's TL E. 
Potentially, they could have high jump capability TL F ships - BUT I really
really doubt they would use them on suicide missions....

Alan Bradley

ps: Joe world generation is a bit different from standard Impie stuff. 
There may actually be a TL E cap, but it doesn't apply to Zhdant, or to
anywhere else the ref decides....  I'm talking pre-Regency settings, of
course!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:42:19 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: X-boats

Incidentally, there would be corporations whose main commodity is data. 
Media outlets for one.  They already have huge problems with time lags. 
This would only get worse if a competitor was getting their stories a week,
or a month, or two, before them.

For these corporations, fast communications are a matter of life and death.

Yes, they can be megacorps - have a look at RW News Corporation.  I can't
remember which TU megacorps specialise in media, if any.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:48:57 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Megacorps (was re: Validity of the Canon Traveller trading Model)

- ----------
> From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Megacorps (was re: Validity of the Canon Traveller trading
Model)
> Date: Thursday, 3 December 1998 1:45
> 
> Walter Smith wrote:
> > 
> > Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >         Once you have the resources of a Megacorp to draw on, yes, only
> > Collosal bad luck or missmanagement will kill you.  In the
meantime.....
> > And once the first Megacorp climbed the evolutionary ladder, why didn't
it
> > EAT everything else threatening to become a Megacorp?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Part of it would be geography. If a megacorp is developing in Core,
> > it won't have the resources to prevent a megacorp from developing
> > in Vland. By the time both companies have truly become megacorps,
> > each is too big for the other to readily devour. (The one developing in
> > Core may happily devour it's closer-placed competitors, though).
> > 
> > Another part would be specialization. An Imperium-wide banking
> > megacorp may not have any interest in owning shipbuilding concerns,
> > it would rather be a step back a finance them. Thus you have both
> > Hortalez et Cie and GSbAG (for example).
> > 
> > Then there is the political angle. A megacorp probably cannot prosper
> > without the existance of the Imperium, and the permission of the
> > Emperor. It seems to me the Emperor has no interest in all commercial
> > power in his empire becoming concentrated in one corporate entity.
> > 
> > Walt Smith
> 
> So to carry it forward, what happens to the Megacorps when the Imperium
> implodes?  
> 
> I'd assume that the local (and that can be very very broad) officers
> would continue operations, system, sub-sector, sector, even
> multi-subsector if they could.  I envision a Subsector level
> Director/VP/Pres anticipating being the BIG GUY, right up until the J-6
> courier shows up from Sector HQ letting him know what the official
> MegaCorp policy now is in the newly downsized Sector MegaCorp....and
> then never hearing from them again when the Sector HQ gets trashed....
> 
> Ahhhh the possibilities.  Lots of room for Nobles to make themselves
> felt again.  Political intrigue....  I love it.
> 
> The Count

Remember government type 1?  Many corporations, and not just Megacorps, are
already "legitimate planetary governments".  Amongst other things, this
gives them loopholes for maintaining "planetary navies" and armies.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:55:58 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Megacorps

- ----------
> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Megacorps
> Date: Thursday, 3 December 1998 1:58
> 

<snip>

> >>        Thank-you.  You just cemented my whole problem with the Canon
> >>arrangement right there...  How did they *get* to be Megacorps, if they only
> >>things capable of "ignoring" the problems of operating on this scale *are*
> >>megacorps?
> >
> >Well, Makhadurin, Sharushiiid and Nasiirka have been around since before
> >the Ziru Sirkaa got set up.
> 
>         In otherwords, GM Fiat said "I need Megacorps, so I'll have them
> exist so far into prehistory I don't have worry about the economics required
> to create one..."
> 
> >The non-Vilani megacorps are more recent, but most of them got their start
> >during the Antebellum 'expansion' period of the Third Imperium.
> >
> >Notable is the 'missing megacorp', Zhunatsu Corp, which was the personal
> >property of Cleon I, and a driving force behind the actual establishment of
> >the Imperium. There is no answer in Canon, but the guessing is it was
> >broken up during the replacement of Cleon the Mad, in exchange for Imperial
> >shares in all the other big corps.
> 
>         So why didn't the existing "Big Three" companies simply buy them out
> or stomp them out?  It is not in a corporation's best interest to have
> competiton.
> 

There appears to be a strong correlation between Megacorp owners and senior
noble families.  "Stomping them out" is called starting a civil war...

Incidentally, one aspect of the Julian War was a conflict between the
Imperial Megacorps and the Menderes Corporation.  Menderes won.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:42:19 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

David P. Summers said:

>Well, aside from the fact that most people don't buy stocks based
>on the hourly price, the fact is that, since it will take weeks
>to get your order to the world in question either way, the trader
>needs to have some way of dealing with the delay.


I'm not sure that you got my point. The difference of a few hours could mean
the difference between making 310 MegaCredits from a stock trade and making
20 MegaCredits (imaginary values invented as examples).

I wasn't commenting on the frequency of trading. I was commenting on the
frequency of information. Getting information days (or even mere hours)
before others is too useful to a megacorporation to just be ignored.

>One might arrange to have a ship take news of such things to
>a certain destination (though I suspect that simply having
>a local representative present to buy stock on site would
>make more sense) but I don't see that as supporting an X-boat
>level of service.


The on-site corporate representative only knows as much as everyone else in
that market. That's the problem that megacorporations would have to deal
with on a regular basis.

Example:

Imagine I run a stock trading company in a subsector in Daibei. I have
agencies trading in the markets of various worlds in that subsector. In the
core regions, Delgado, LIC announces that it is releasing a new line of
computer games based on an extremely popular Imperium wide children's vid
series. Presumably, as this information hits every world, subsector and
sector, the price of Delgado stock is going to go up. Knowing that Delgado
stock is going to shoot up before the local markets find out could be very
important. That would give my company the advantage that casual traders, or
corporations with little money (or little foresight) would not have.

Maybe the company I run was going to sell off all its Delgado shares based
on the poor performance of one of its weapon designs in the subsector. Now I
know that Delgado shares have a good chance of shooting up in price. I can
wait. On the other hand, maybe my company has no Delgado shares. Maybe I was
waiting until the stock hit a certain low price. Now, I know I have to buy
very soon or the price will shoot up.

>The question isn't wether megacorps would benefit, the point is
>whether they would benefit often enough to support a X-boat
>kind of jump-6 system.


As I said, my own take on it is that they would exist. I don't think it
would have the total coverage that the Xboat routes have. I think that
they'd probably exist in the subsector/sector range especially, with maybe a
few dedicated, high-priced routes along  major routes from high volume trade
centers.

One of the major problems is that Traveller's world creation system isn't
designed to make sense. As a result, trade routes and "mains" and all these
things are left completely to random chance. In reality, they'd probably
develop over time.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:52:50 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT docking costs

Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:45:44 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>>That's because GT dosen't have any life support costs at
all (AFAICS there's
>not even any food costs, which IMO is going too far in the other direction
>(more likely, I've missed a reference to them. David?

It does provide food (since GURPS full lifesupport provides
full life support).  A number of GM's have indicated that
they rule that the food provided is such a tasteless mush
that almost everyone prefers to buy "real food" to take along,
which is fine since nothing says what the food tastes like.
(this would make a good option rule in a sidebar in the Naval
supplement).  In my campaign I decided that the "food"
is so nearly inedible that they don't bother to install
that part of the life support system except for exploration
vessels and others that have some chance of getting caught
without food for a long period of time.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:54:01 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

pbroeder@wave.co.nz wrote:
> 
> WARNING!! this message is best viewed to the sounds of "Rule Britannia"
> (1)
> (yes, it's going to be one of  THOSE messages)
> 
> Yesterday afternoon the New Zealand government again proved that they
> are dumber than mud when they decided that despite New Zealand being a
> maratime nation almost solely dependant on sea trade for it's earnings
> and having the fourth largest territorial waters in the world we could
> get by (somehow) with a "2 Frigate Navy" (2).

Not being sure of what their duties are, what do you need a Navy for?
Here in the States we have a separate service, the Coast Guard, that
handles everything that most everyone else needs a navy for, customs
interdiction, fishing regulation, rescues, piracy supression (yes
Virginia, pirates _do_ exist off the US coast...mostly in the caribbean
and gulf), etc. If you're asking 2 frigates to do that, I agree, your
politicians are nuts! If what the navy does is 'show the flag', then 2
ships are fine...


> On the plus side, we are upgrading HMNZS Charles Upham (finally) (3)
> have agreed to fund 2 extra rifle companies for the army and lease/buy
> 28 F-16A/B's for the Air Force.
> The F-16's are coming cheap though.(4)

Yeah, McDonnell-Douglas is hurting, their chief supporters in Congress
got kicked out.


> OBTRAV: Will politicians remain this blind and/or dumb over the next
> 3,600 years??

Hahahahahahah hahahaha ha ha <whew> It hasn't stopped 'em for the _last_
3600 years, has it?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 18:01:14 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com wrote:

> Did not Steve Daniels also contribute <ewg>
>

LOL!  I believe there is another among the  . . .
{looks left, looks right)
 . . . Unnamed.

Traveller News Service - 001-0174
After celebrating the beginning of the new year, the Church of Sylea's
(page 23) Bishop of Antares made a public statement requestion that the
Restored Canon Church of Sylea (pg. 17), stop interfering with its
activities in the Antares subsector, and especially with the missionary
work of the Monastic Order of St. Marc (pg. 31).  An unnamed source
within the CoS heirarchy in Antares hinted that the Monastic Order of the
Soldiers of God (pg. 22), also known as the Chaplains, or Battle Chaplains,
has been harassing the Monks of St. Marc, and may be in league with
the RCCS.  Several others have remarked that the Ricardos, members
of the Religious Military Order of St. Ricardo I, King of Sylea (pg. 27),
have been increasingly visible in Antares sector.  Could a Holy War be
shaping up in Antares between these religious orders, with the CoS and
the Ricardos on one side, the RCCS and the Battle Chaplains on the other,
with the peaceful educating monks of St. Marc caught in between?
Stay tuned.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:36:48 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

Yes, this is OT....  My comments are strictly IMHO.

- ----------
> From: pbroeder@wave.co.nz
> To: Traveller-digest <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Dumber than Mud (OT)
> Date: Thursday, 3 December 1998 7:57
> 
> WARNING!! this message is best viewed to the sounds of "Rule Britannia"
> (1)
> (yes, it's going to be one of  THOSE messages)
> 

Yes it is one of THOSE messages.  This will be my only post on the topic.

> Yesterday afternoon the New Zealand government again proved that they
> are dumber than mud when they decided that despite New Zealand being a
> maratime nation almost solely dependant on sea trade for it's earnings
> and having the fourth largest territorial waters in the world we could
> get by (somehow) with a "2 Frigate Navy" (2).
> 
> This has had the Immediate result of P*ss*ng the Australians off. ( a
> bad thing - unfortunately)
> 

Yes, I agree that the NZ government is dumber than mud.  So is the
Australian government.

IMO the ANZAC frigates are good for two things only:
1.  Subsidising the Australian shipbuilding industry.
2.  Allowing the US navy to have token client forces with them next time
they fight a war.

So: who will the NZ navy be fighting?  Australia?  The US?  France?  
IMO most likely it would be supporting an "intervention" in some place like
Fiji, Vanuatu or Bougainville, or "showing the flag" in the Gulf.

OBTRAV:  Client states are likely to maintain small jump-capable navies
(basically Gazelles, Patrol Cruisers or Merc Cruisers), in addition to
SDBs, to allow them to "support" Imperial fleets, or intervene in other
smaller clients and non-aligned worlds, with Imperial permission of course.

> 
> OBTRAV:(5) I'm sure that in the core areas of the 3I there will be
> systems like this. say a trinary star system with a starport of B, a
> rich trade code a resaerch base in the far companion,  extensive
> asteroidal mining in the outer system, Oort belt and close companion....
> with 2 SDB's , 6 gigs, and 28 9ton fighters to defend it all.
> This is how piracy survives in the 3I (6)

No comment, as I don't want to restart the piracy debate.  Lots of worlds
IMTU have "navies" about this size.  My comment above suggests that the
analogy should be with small jump-capable ships, rather than SDBs.

> Just off hand does anyone know of a system B***64*-*  Ag  Ri   Trinary
> in the core sectors somewhere? I'd like to develop it.
> 
> OBTRAV: Will politicians remain this blind and/or dumb over the next
> 3,600 years??
> 

Absolutely.

Look, I am not trying to start a flame war.  If apologies are needed, you
have them.  As I mentioned at the start, this is my one and only post on
the topic.

Actually, client states are quite interesting....

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

> 
> (1) There is no New Zealand version - YET.
> 
> (2) "2 Frigate navy" is a contradiction in terms. To keep the ships in
> order- more importantly keep crews for them - It takes 3 ships, minimum.
> 
> (3) This should have been started over a year ago - the papers said  it
> needed extensive refiting when we bought the ship- why is everybody
> acting like they've just discovered that now and screaming "LEMON" to
> anyone who'll listen???
> 
> (4) I will not comment on this beyond stating that the defence minister
> has said for the record that "They are the Best Strike aircraft of their
> kind int the world."
> 
> (5) See, there is a point to this rant after all.
> 
> (6) I am NOT trying to reopen the piracy debate- It exists IMTU
> regardless of yours.
> 
> Jonathan B.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:27:14 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Chris Seamans wrote:

>David P. Summers said:
>
>>Well, aside from the fact that most people don't buy stocks based
>>on the hourly price, the fact is that, since it will take weeks
>>to get your order to the world in question either way, the trader
>>needs to have some way of dealing with the delay.
>
>
>I'm not sure that you got my point. The difference of a few hours could mean
>the difference between making 310 MegaCredits from a stock trade and making
>20 MegaCredits (imaginary values invented as examples).

Say the price on an company is low, and the local corp-rep gets the load-down
that this particular company has gotten a huge contract. He sends the
information to the board which say takes 7 days to get there. They see this
as an oppurtunity and send the "buy"-message back. During these to weeks 
the price of the company will have gone up tremendously as the planetbased
companies buys all the stocks. 

How do you do stock trade this way. I'm not even sure that there will be stocks
in a soceity that has interstellar travel this way. Are there other ways of
setting up the system that would be more benifical? Is the stock market type
influenced by our "Real World"-point of view?

>I wasn't commenting on the frequency of trading. I was commenting on the
>frequency of information. Getting information days (or even mere hours)
>before others is too useful to a megacorporation to just be ignored.

But before who. How can you be sure that your information is in your hands
before it is in other hands. What info are you going to try to capitalize on.
Which deals can you get before the others try to get it. Which ones is
there no point in doing because some other megacorp has the edge. In a
soceity with the information lags like the IMperium, I really think you have
more the:

" Well, Frank, this is you budget this year. I hope you'll make us a 
big a profitt on Vland as you did last year. "

You get more independent local reps that get a budget and try to make 
a profitt. The more sucessful you are the easier it is to get that
promotion of that dirtball you spend the last three years on.

>Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 16:35:19 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Fast courier services

>>>>
Currently we have the federal run mail service, cheap, relatively
efficient
and good if you don't need your delivery to get there in time. We
also have
two independent companies, UPS and Federal Express that send mail
and
packages much faster.

There is no reason to believe that the Xboat network is the only
option.
People would pay for faster service, and they would pay whatever the
market
could bear.
>>>>
I agree that x-boats are not the only way to get messages from one
place to another.  However, the expense is much higher.  I like the
comparison between the Post Office and UPS/FedEx.  The Post Office can
get my letter 100 miles away quite reliably, but without predicting
the timeframe.  I have often had mail goto family 100 miles away the
next day, but I have also had letters take 10+ days.  On the other
hand I can pay an order of magnitude more and have my letter
guaranteed to be there the next day.  I suspect that would be about
the difference in price between xmail and the specialized courier
services -- about x10.  They would also probably be able to guarantee
delivery within a specific timeframe too (ex:  "We guarantee your
message will get to it's destination within 8 days or we will refund
your fee").
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:43:32 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: The Islands Clusters (was Re: Jump-6...  again)

> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:56:57 EST
> From: StevenA201@aol.com
> Subject: Jump-6...  again
> 
> And, on a related note, I've been looking over the Reft Sector lately, and
> wondering how the Island subsectors got explored and settled.  There is no J-6
> route to them from either "bank" of the rift.  I can imagine a special scout
> cruiser modified for 2xJ-4...  using 80% of hull volume for fuel!  (I assume
> these worlds were settled long before the drop tank fiasco of 1105.)
> 
> But I can't imagine a _colony ship_ outfitted for J-4 twice.  Who would do
> such a thing?  How many colonists?  At what cost?  Does anyone have any
> history...  or any bright ideas?  --S
> 

The Islands Clusters (New Islands and Old Islands subsectors, Reft Sector)
were settled by sublight colony ships from Earth.  Three ships built by the
European Space Agency departed Earth orbit in AD 2050 (-2461 Imperial) with
100,000 colonists in low berths (each) and smaller, generation-ship style
crews.  The ships arrived in the Clusters around AD 4512 (-9 Imperial) and
spent most of the next millenium spreading colonies throughout the region
at sublight velocities.

In AD 5501 (980 Imperial), the Imperial Strike Cruiser Eldorado misjumped
to Serendip Belt in the Clusters as a result of battle damage sustained
during the Third Frontier War.  Her crew taught the Belters enough to help
them repair the jump drives, and she returned to the Imperium in AD 5504
(984 Imperial) through the use of auxiliary jump fuel tanks*.  The Belters
used this experience to develop jump drives of their own.  When the
Imperial Scout Service sent a mission to follow up on Eldorado's contact in
AD 5534 (988 Imperial), they discovered Serendip Belt on the verge of
conquering the rest of the Clusters.  For reasons unknown the Scouts
elected to spread jump technology to seven other worlds in the Clusters,
ensuring their division and rivalry for at least the next hundred-odd
years.

All this information is covered in Traveller Supplement 5: Trillion Credit
Squadron, pp. 40-48 (? I'm going from memory).  It was originally a naval
campaign setting, and so the large number of rival worlds makes sense in
that context.  Why the ESA chose to send a colony so far out is the subject
of occasional debate on the list (check the Archives, if you're
interested), especially since invention of jump drive and first contact
with the Vilani followed within fifty years.

The region was covered again in The Regency Sourcebook for TNE. The
Clusters had been forcibly incorporated into the Regency to prevent them
from becoming a jumping-off point for a Vampire invasion fleet.  Contact
was maintained througn the use of deep space fuel depots ("calibration
points").

*[Gearheads: take heed.  Note that TCS does not say "drop tanks" however.]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1230
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 2 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1231



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:  GT Docking costs
TTFN
Re: New New Zealand
Re: Megacorps
Re: G:T partial streamlining
Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Jump-6 courier network
I Saw GURPS: Traveller
Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller
Re: Electronic Warfare
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct?
BITS website is now up and running...
Another Astronomy Question
Fast Couriers
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller
G:T Rebuilt Gig

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:46:05 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re:  GT Docking costs

I don't recall seeing anywhere in GT the reference to the Cr 2,000 life support costs.  Maybe I just missed it,  
and someone can point me in the right direction.  I was also disappointed that 
there was not "trade and commerce" rules included.  My group & I will continue 
to use T4 rules for that.

> The life support in GT is
> total life support (provides food as well) and doesn't have any associated
> fees (other than anual maintainence).
> 


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:58:21 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: TTFN

Due to not being home for the next week and a half... I'm signing off for now.

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:aramis@gci.net> Note: All other E-mail addresses for me expire by
the end of november 1998!
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
UTUP 0309 6-7779577-5-5-2
ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:50:09
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: New New Zealand

>From: pbroeder@wave.co.nz
>Subject: Dumber than Mud (OT)
>
>OBTRAV:(5) I'm sure that in the core areas of the 3I there will be
>systems like this. say a trinary star system with a starport of B, a
>rich trade code a resaerch base in the far companion,  extensive
>asteroidal mining in the outer system, Oort belt and close companion....
>with 2 SDB's , 6 gigs, and 28 9ton fighters to defend it all.
>This is how piracy survives in the 3I (6)
>Just off hand does anyone know of a system B***64*-*  Ag  Ri   Trinary
>in the core sectors somewhere? I'd like to develop it.
>

Funnily enough, New New Zealand did come up as an example of a possible
self-defending system sometime during the Great Piracy Debate of 1997-8.

I would actually argue that the above flotilla is quite adequate to defend
your average pop 6, starport C world, against ethically-challenged
civilians, especially if you arm the fighters with the Traveller equivalent
of the Penguin. You cant defend the Outsystem, but hells, who can ?

The Anzac Frigates are quite capable of blue-water operation, so I'd call
them Frigates rather than SDBs - they should be jump-2 capable at least.

Doesnt New Zealand have a couple of Orion patrol aircraft as well ?

I dont know about gov type 4, but Mongo (1204 Jewell/Spinward Marches)
comes pretty close. Binary system, Ag Ni Ri, pop 6 ... gov type is 8, but
we Civil Servants know who really runs the country. Phlume (1611 Vilis/SM)
is another option.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:29:22
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Megacorps

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Re: Megacorps
>
>        Also, I would guess that GURPS allows for, or can be *bent* to allow
>for to custom-made one-shot-ship-wreckers.  I don't know for sure, as I
>don't play the system.

G:T missiles have the same problem most other missiles have - any missile
hit destroys any other missile.

Thus, expensive ship-wreckers get hit by very small, very cheap,
point-defense missiles.

>>Well, Makhadurin, Sharushiiid and Nasiirka have been around since before
>>the Ziru Sirkaa got set up.
>
>        In otherwords, GM Fiat said "I need Megacorps, so I'll have them
>exist so far into prehistory I don't have worry about the economics required
>to create one..."
>

No. The Vilani bureaux are 'structural features' of Vilani interstellar
society. Using the term 'megacorporation' for them is not precisely correct
- - they are part corporation, part subculture, part State ...

>>Notable is the 'missing megacorp', Zhunatsu Corp, which was the personal
>>property of Cleon I, and a driving force behind the actual establishment of
>>the Imperium. There is no answer in Canon, but the guessing is it was
>>broken up during the replacement of Cleon the Mad, in exchange for Imperial
>>shares in all the other big corps.
>
>        So why didn't the existing "Big Three" companies simply buy them out
>or stomp them out?  It is not in a corporation's best interest to have
>competiton.

At the time, Zhunatsu Corp (aka the Third Imperium) was negotiating at the
Vilani from a position of rough equality - the Vilani had slipped to TL9 or
10, and their interstellar zone of influence had shrunk to a couple of
subsectors.

See if you can find a copy of Milleau Zero. It's got a lot of good stuff in
it.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 11:06:18
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: G:T partial streamlining

>From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
>Subject: Partial Streamlining in GT
>
>this was posted by David Pulver on pyramid last night:

>A few people have wondered where partial streamlining is.
>Answer: it's the default condition.
>Take a look at old Traveller -- e.g., High Guard. What shape *isn't*
>partial streamlined?
>Dispersed structures, rocks, basically.
>Both are special cases of the rules best built with options from
>vehicles or the vehicles designer notes (open frame, modular, etc.)
>The default is partial streamlining... the key is about DR 100 armored
>hull...

If this is the case, then the 'book' streamlined A1 and A2 class Free
Traders are going to be very, very rare. The 'standard' low-jump Free
Trader (suitable for insystem and short-haul work) is going to be
dedicating that 20% of total volume to firstly cargo, secondly some
contragravity and thirdly some more m-drive modules.

>An interface shuttle is about 4 megacredits, once you start to use
>contragravity.
>I find it very hard to believe that any world that engages in interstellar
>trade couldnt afford the equivalent of a couple of aluminium dingies to
>take cargo from ship to shore.
>*********
>nah the aluminum dingies are enclosed air rafts :)
>
>anyway some type D and almost all type E have no small craft to speak of
>(as they can't maintain them),

Big woop. Load em up as cargo on an outgoing freighter, take em to a C
starport, maintain em and send em back. Do it on a 2 year maintainence
cycle (it isnt as if they are going into jumpspace).

>Well, if the boat is based on the ground, the ship gets to carry 18 dtons
>more cargo, which means there is more potential profit on the route.
>A lot of trust is needed, as the freighter captain is relying on the
>groundpounders for her resupply of fuel.
>***************
>true, but I wouldn't count on that unless the port was C or better.
>

The problem is that starport facilities suitable for small traders (sub
2000 tons) look to cost about twelve megacredits (eight for two shuttles,
two for a refining plant and some LHyd drums, and two for some defenses and
a pond).

Handwaving this strategy out of existance is possible, but if you dump the
streamlining on an Empress Marava class A2, you can take the cargo up by
about double (say, another 35 dtons of cargo, and another 5 M-drive).
Sticker cost goes up to MCr 38.5, but cargo capacity is now 83 dtons
(better than a fully streamlined Beowulf-class A1).

Economics is everything.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 17:09:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network

Tommy Grav wrote:
> 
> Say the price on an company is low, and the local corp-rep gets the load-down
> that this particular company has gotten a huge contract. He sends the
> information to the board which say takes 7 days to get there. They see this
> as an oppurtunity and send the "buy"-message back. During these to weeks
> the price of the company will have gone up tremendously as the planetbased
> companies buys all the stocks.
> 
> How do you do stock trade this way. I'm not even sure that there will be stocks
> in a soceity that has interstellar travel this way. Are there other ways of
> setting up the system that would be more benifical? Is the stock market type
> influenced by our "Real World"-point of view?
> 

Sigh. 

This is NOT how trade in such a system works. It can't. In a system
where local managers are required to respond to events and opportunities
faster than the communications delay would allow, they have to have the
authority and resources to act on their own initiative. 

Your hypothetical corp rep buys the stocks himself, when he feels their
value is appropriate, using the corporate resources he has available to
him. He just has to maintain a sizeable bank account to do this. This is
something that is easily slowed to the pace imposed by the OTU travel
lag. He includes these details in his weekly, or monthly report to
subsector HQ, which may not see it for another month. Just because the
pace of business isn't as fast as it is here, now, doesn't automatically
mean that it doesn't exist.

This is exactly how such things were handled here on earth before the
advent of rapid worldwide communications in the last century or so. The
Ney York Stock exchange was founded in 1792. The London stock Exchange
was founded some 20 years earlier, by a group of existing stock brokers.
This is long before the advent of modern communications; in fact it is
an exact model of Traveller economics, as the speed of communication is
limited to the speed of transport. Commerce in Traveller is NOT
centralized, the Dilbert model of Managerial Micromanagement does not
work. This is why the Imperial government is set up the way it is, with
the central authority setting policy in an abstract fashion, expecting
the local rep[resentatives, using their own authority and lines of
credit, if need be, to act upon the abstract and implement it.

A local manager that loses money over the period of a year or so will be
fired or demoted. One that makes a lot of money will be promoted,
perhaps to the subsector management level where she will have to depend
on the judgement of her picked lackeys...err... subordinates to make the
tactical decisions on planet. The point is, that the management
hierarchy is extradinarily flattened between the planetary level and the
megacorp HQ level. It has to be, you can't do the kind of 'Master may
I?' decision making processes we use today.

Todays system of micro management, hourly trading in stocks (daily
trading exists now, I can only expect, that as the trading systems get
more automated, there will be people who are making money trading on an
hourly basis) simply cannot work in the OTU. 

However, stocks as a method of capitalization of business are just too
damn useful to go away; it is a cornerstone of economic development as
we know it. The rate at which they are traded may change, but the
concept remains the same.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:14:15 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

>Imagine I run a stock trading company in a subsector in Daibei. I have
>agencies trading in the markets of various worlds in that subsector. In the
>core regions, Delgado, LIC announces that it is releasing a new line of
>computer games based on an extremely popular Imperium wide children's vid
>series. Presumably, as this information hits every world, subsector and
>sector, the price of Delgado stock is going to go up. Knowing that Delgado
>stock is going to shoot up before the local markets find out could be very
>important.

It's also possible, however, that Delgado's stock is only traded on one 
planet - Regina, or the planet with its corporate headquarters. That's (in
some sense) the way most stocks work now, and worked in the 19th 
century - they are only traded on one exchange, which does have a physical
location, and your ability to purchase those shares if you're not
physically present is limited by the speed of communication (instantaneous
today, but significant in the past.)

On the other hand, there could be information from non-central planets that
will influence the price of Delgado; for example, if Delgado computer games
are cited as the motivation in a grisly mass-murder on Glisten, the first
person on Regina to know that could buy up quite a bit of Delgado stock on the
margin.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:21:27 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:42:19 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>

>>Well, aside from the fact that most people don't buy stocks based
>>on the hourly price, the fact is that, since it will take weeks
>>to get your order to the world in question either way, the trader
>>needs to have some way of dealing with the delay.

>I'm not sure that you got my point. The difference of a few hours could mean
>the difference between making 310 MegaCredits from a stock trade and making
>20 MegaCredits (imaginary values invented as examples).

>I wasn't commenting on the frequency of trading. I was commenting on the
>frequency of information. Getting information days (or even mere hours)
>before others is too useful to a megacorporation to just be ignored.

If you are trading on the fundamentals (like most people, rather
than some sort of market timing strategy) then the fluctuations
up and down average out (or you just put in a limit on how
much you are willing to pay and list some alternate stocks).

If you are talking about buying based on news that the others
don't have.  I'm not sure that such news will warrent an
X-boat level of service.  (At any jump, a few worlds will
get the info first and beat everyone further away, the best
way is to know the news is coming and be prepared to use
it).  In any case, if you are trying to make money by getting
news before others, then you don't want a jump-6 X-boat network.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 18:26:02 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: I Saw GURPS: Traveller

I'm a bit behind, I know.  I haven't been playing Traveller for close to
a year now.  So, I'm in my FLGS tonight, checking out the stuff, and run
across a copy of GURPS: Traveller.  I wanted to see what they did...

...and it was like stepping back in time looking at old GDW Classic Trav
stuff.

That's a huge compliment.  I was really impressed with what I saw.  You
don't know how hard that is for me to say since I've never been turned
on by anything that GURPS did.

I've got to admit.  I like the look of the newer games these days.  This
is almost the year 2000, and there's no reason why the gaming industry
shouldn't benefit from high production values in game products.  I like
the way games like the new Star Trek game, Star Wars, Vampire, and
Alternity look--I didn't say I like all of those games.  I just think
that's the direction that production values in games should take.  The
flashy pictures, sleek design, and slick pages look good and add value
to the product for me.  The game mechanics and stuff inside have to be
good too, but I feel like I've bought a better quality product when it
is packaged properly.

Maybe it's because I concentrated on marketing when I was in school, or
maybe it's just because I like nice things--but I like the new, sleek,
glossy stuff.

GURPS Traveller (or any of the GURPS stuff, for that matter) doesn't
fall into this "new-look" category, but I liked it none-the-less.  From
what I saw, G: T looks like a simple, good gaming product that will hold
its own with the DGP stuff and the earlier Trav stuff.

I did like it.

And, here's the biggest compliment of all.  If I pick up my Trav game
again sometime in the near future (unlikely, since we are having a blast
with my Star Wars game that we have been playing for the last six
months), I will buy the GURPS stuff EVEN IF I DON'T USE THE GURPS RULES.

I just saw too much good Trav info in there to not buy it.

Good job, Loren.  Good job, SJG.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:54:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller

- ---Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:
>
> I'm a bit behind, I know.  I haven't been playing Traveller for
close to a year now.  So, I'm in my FLGS tonight, checking out the
stuff, and run across a copy of GURPS: Traveller.  I wanted to see
what they did...
> 
> ...and it was like stepping back in time looking at old GDW Classic
Trav stuff.
> 

That's it, I can't stand it anymore.  I've got to see this stuff for
myself.  How do I find out where the closest GURPS dealer is?



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4+ ?tg ru++ 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 18:52:21 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: Electronic Warfare

At 07:18 AM 12/2/98 , Michel wrote:
>        Has anyone done up a set of EW/CEW rules for CT/HG?  We know you can
>use an ECM program to defeat missles, but can you use it to fog up
>somebody's primary sensors?  I am planning on putting something together,
>including "burn through" ranges, etc., but I obviously don't want to
>reinvent the hyperdrive.
>	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

Michel,

I would recommend Bruce's DSR(Definative Sensor Rules) as a starting place,
they cover all major points and allows for a fairly extensive EW/ECM
effects. In basic terms EW/ECW realy only effects the signal strength
levels. I only disagree with the DSR on the cost factors not declining with
TL increases.

Have fun

Sinbad Sam

Sinbad Sam
"Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
sinbad@ignore.hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 17:51:15 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

At 03:54 pm 12/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> The F-16's are coming cheap though.(4)
>
>Yeah, McDonnell-Douglas is hurting, their chief supporters in
Congress
>got kicked out.

	They're hurting even more than you think, because they didn't make
the sale to NZ ... the F-16 is a *Lockheed* product. Although
Lockheed may not be getting much off this sale, either, as it sounds
like these are used or surplus models (the A & B are fairly old
variants ...)
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 17:34:06 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Professional Soldier's Code of Conduct?

At 09:50 pm 11/30/98 -0800, you wrote:

>
>In the US Army, the very first class you take at the Infantry school
is on
>the standards expected of an American Soldier.

	It's not just the very first class, it's also an annual requirement,
at least in the Air Force, to receive LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict)
training. It's amazing how many military lawyers are *terrible*
public speakers (they started requiring that it be given by someone
from the JAG's office... I used to do a much better job ...)
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:54:43 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS website is now up and running...

Dear all,

The revised BITS website is now up and running - please point your browsers at:

http://www.bits.org.uk/

as the old innocom address is about to be deleted.

I hope you find it useful. It has details about the product range, CORE,
conventions and a selection of obligatory links ;-)

Let me know what you think (probably best not to waste the TML's bandwidth),

Dom
(BITS webmaster)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 22:06:59 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Another Astronomy Question

        In brief, what is the difference between a "dG0"-type star and a
"G0"-type star.  I am looking at some RealWorld(tm) stellar data for the
Near Earth area, and am filtering it for all the "G"-series stars...  those
are the only ones I am going to be placing on my starmap of the TNEC area,
for simplicity's sake.  Does the lowercase "d" stand for "dwarf" or is it
something else entirely (which I suspect it is).
        As always, any help is greatly appreciated!
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:03:23
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Fast Couriers

We seem to have three schools of thought on this.

The first one is that an Express Postal Service is not economically
worthwhile, and thus does not exist in the late Third Imperium.

The second one is that an Express Postal system is so worthwhile that it
presents a threat to Imperial Security, and has been prevented, in order to
protect the Imperial State's news advantage vis a vis it's citizens.

The third one is that at least one Express Postal system co-exists with the
Xboat system.

Now, I have big problems with the first school of thought, because a fast
courier costs within an order of magnitude of a Far Trader, and there are
plenty of orginisations that can afford lots of Far Traders. News is so
clearly such a valuable commodity that I am surprised that anyone would
argue that it isnt worth gigacredits to be consistently the first with it. 

I have problems with the second school of thought, because the people who
would benefit from an Express Postal System are the people who could afford
to use it - the Imperial Elite of the nobility, the megacorporattions and
the mercantile community in general. 

Furthermore, these are the same people with the resources and contacts to
bribe the officials in charge of any Navy or Imperial Fast Courier system
into including commercial packets with normal packets.

The officials in charge of passing along packets of information would also
have the awful temptation of using that information for their own ends.

Thus, only having a Naval or Imperial system may have the same net effect
and has the added risk of increasing the amount of corruption in the system.

Now, when the X-boat system was set up, it did use state of the art
technology, and if we are vaguely charitable towards Arbatrella's
bureaucrats, we can assume that the nodes were at the time the important
worlds.

I like the idea of the Imperium just coming out of an economic slump, with
the Solomani Rim War and the Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars taking up too
much of Imperial resources to implement the plans to fix up the Xboat
system. A series of *big* loans to the Imperium to fund the above wars
could also explain a slowdown in megacorporate investments ... IMO the main
Imperial method of raising cash would be through bond issues to megacorps -
they pay the cash, and then the Imperium pays them back over many years,
when the tax revenues start flowing back through.

If you like conspiracy campaigns, we could have Everyone Who Counts
maintaining the polite fiction that news goes via the xboat system, and *of
course* no-one has express couriers that go faster than this (with
Imperialines being a second-order secret).

Most everyone takes care to maintain deniability when they take advantage
of advance knowledge, of course ...

Now, one of the major bureaucratic developments that accompanied the end of
the FFW could be the official recognition that allowing civilians to use
jump-6 couriers will not result in the End of the Imperium As We Know It,
and will indeed save the Imperium from having to redevelop the Xboat
system, as jump-6 vessels will be required to carry Priority X-mail at a
tariff of Cr 1 000 per dton, at the request of an Imperial Official.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 21:43:37 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

At 09:13 AM 02/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/2/98 8:15:16 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:
>
>>         How many parsecs across is a nebula?  I am considering using a
>>  "dark" nebula in IMTU as part of the plot, but am unsure how big or small
>an
>>  "average" or a "small" nebular area would be.  Any help would be greatly
>>  appreciated.
>
>Depends on what kind of nebula you're talking about.  _The Guide to the
>Galaxy_ gives the average size of a molecular cloud* as about 120 ly (36.8
>pc), but points out that there's a wide variation.  They can be smaller or
>a *lot* bigger.  Other kinds of nebulae have different typical sizes.
>

        Hi again, Jon!
        Since you obviously have got the Heavy Textbooks at your disposal,
nebula can be caused by a star going nova, yes?  The gas cloud is the
"stuff" left over from the stellar matter, right?  Was just working on my
may, and the premise behind the existance of the "Obsidian Sheild" IMTU was
a ~TL18 interstellar civil war fought by a near-stellar neighbour race about
11000y ago.  They figured out enough about stellar processes to touch off a
couple of stars before they blew themselves back to TL0....  So I have two
"was a star" locations that are now the "North" and "South" extents of the
"Obsidian Sheild Nebula".  Given what I am postulating, could there be a
nebula there, or should it really be something else?
        Obviously "canon" and MTU have never been in the same room together,
but that is a different issue =).
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:46:53 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller

In a message dated 12/2/98 4:52:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
swordworlder@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 That's it, I can't stand it anymore.  I've got to see this stuff for
 myself.  How do I find out where the closest GURPS dealer is? >>

I hate to undercut retailers and distributors, but you can order direct from
SJG if all else fails; check their website. My friend Roger is doing that
since there are no longer any retail stores in Nassau County, Long Island (I
still can't believe that...as an ex-lslander and FGU employee...:-(      ).

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:01:39
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: G:T Rebuilt Gig

20 dton Gig

20 Dton Fully Streamlined hull (4/3t), DR 100 (0/30t), Cockpit bridge
(1/4.9t), Engineering (1/4.1t), 4 maneuver(4/13.6t), 1 passenger
couch(1/0.54t), 9 cargo (9/45t)

Cost MCr 4.19

EMass 56.4t, LMass 101.4t, HP 7500, Cost MCr 4.19, Hull Size Mod +6

Performance Space 1.5 gees ; 2000 kph airspeed


This vessel is basically a cut-down version of the standard gig. It
features a much more rudimentary bridge, a smaller passenger bay and a 40%
bigger cargo carrying capbility.

It is capable of interface between surface and orbit, and often carries a
number of Spacejacks into orbit, who stay in their suits and assist with
cargo transfer from orbiting unstreamlined ships.

Armed variants are sometimes seen, usually replacing either some cargo
space or the passenger bay with a single 305 MJ laser. The latter version
is often seen as a customs vessel, carrying an Inspector and a bodyguard of
Marines.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1231
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, December 3 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1232



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Survey Speeds
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Fast Couriers
Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: New New Zealand
Information on Classic Traveller
Re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files
Re: Jump-6 courier network I
GURPS Traveller auction lots
Re: February Releases
Re: New New Zealand
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Cardboard Heroes
Re: February Releases
Megacorps: Finances & Structure (was Re: Stock trading)
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Jump-6 courier network III

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:28:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller

- ---Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> swordworlder@yahoo.com writes:
> 
>> That's it, I can't stand it anymore.  I've got to see this stuff for
>> myself.  How do I find out where the closest GURPS dealer is? >>
> 
> I hate to undercut retailers and distributors, but you can order
direct from SJG if all else fails; check their website

I need to see / feel the stuff, first.  I'm having a hard time
believing that it's any good.  And is it worth having if you aren't
going to use the GURPS rule books?



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4+ ?tg ru++ 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 16:25:28 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

At 17:51 2/12/98 -0700, Dave Golden wrote:
>
>	They're hurting even more than you think, because they didn't make
>the sale to NZ ... the F-16 is a *Lockheed* product. Although
>Lockheed may not be getting much off this sale, either, as it sounds
>like these are used or surplus models (the A & B are fairly old
>variants ...)

I'm not sure what model they are, but apparently they were intended for
Pakistan, but then the Pakistani's went mad and tested some nukes, so Uncle
Sam decicded they couldn't have them after all (I don't think the US
refunded the deposit, either). They've got very low hours on them - the
highest flight hours is something like 11 hours. At least they're on a ten
year lease with an option to buy at the end - hpoefully we'll lease 'em for
the ten years and then buy something else.

It sounds like they're a really good deal - if you're in the market for
F16s. However new fighters or attack aircraft is supposed to be bottom
piority for our spending, and F16s aren't really ideal for our mission
requirements anyway. Obviously our government is a sucker for the 'deal of
the century'. Never mind that this means the Navy has to find a way of
keeping an ancient frigate in service for another four years with no
guarantee of a replacement even then. Never mind that the $500 million for
the Army still isn't going to be enough to buy all the gear they nedd to be
an up-to-date light infantry army. Thank the Powers that the government
hasn't lost its mind completely and gone out and bought a whole lot of M1s
or equivilent.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:44:16 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Survey Speeds

        Here's another question for the ever-helpful folks of the TML.  I am
tryng to sort out exploration dates for MTU.  What is a "reasonable" rate of
first visit/ survey?  In other words, at TL9/10, postlating a healthy
economy and government interest in growing to the stars, how many worlds
could you visit and survey per year? 
        3, 6, 12, 24, how-ever-many-you-want?  Trying to come up with a rule
of thumb for the age of various systems.  Thanks!
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:48:28 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

In a message dated 12/2/98 9:24:11 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

>         Since you obviously have got the Heavy Textbooks at your disposal,
>  nebula can be caused by a star going nova, yes?  The gas cloud is the
>  "stuff" left over from the stellar matter, right?  Was just working on my
>  may, and the premise behind the existance of the "Obsidian Sheild" IMTU was
>  a ~TL18 interstellar civil war fought by a near-stellar neighbour race
about
>  11000y ago.  They figured out enough about stellar processes to touch off a
>  couple of stars before they blew themselves back to TL0....  So I have two
>  "was a star" locations that are now the "North" and "South" extents of the
>  "Obsidian Sheild Nebula".  Given what I am postulating, could there be a
>  nebula there, or should it really be something else?

As I understand the astrophysics, a couple of different phenomena might be
relevant to what you're talking about here.

Most red giant stars near the end of their natural lives tend to experience "mass
loss" (i.e. they blow a lot of matter into space -- kind of like a very intense solar
wind).  This can come to a peak at the end of the star's life, when it loses its
entire outer shell.  The core becomes a white dwarf star, while the bulk of the
star's mass forms a "planetary nebula" that slowly dissipates into space.
Planetary nebulae tend to be one or two parsecs across, and are fairly dense.
They're also bright -- they give off light because they're excited by the white
dwarf star at their center.

The canonical examples of a planetary nebula are the Ring Nebula or the
Helix Nebula (the latter, oddly enough, is probably in Imperial space).

A more massive giant star, large enough to go supernova, will produce a
nebular remnant like the Crab Nebula or Veil Nebula.  These are also
bright nebulae, which tend to expand dissipate faster (they have more "kick"
behind them).

You'd have to decide how violent the occasion was when your two stars were
blown up, but in either case you'd get a region of relatively dense (but
*bright*)
nebulosity.  The time-frame you're talking about might be reasonable.  If I
remember correctly, all the nebulae I've just referred to are thought to be at
most 20,000 years old.  You might have a white dwarf at the location of each
of your victim stars.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 00:08:00 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

At 10:48 PM 02/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>A more massive giant star, large enough to go supernova, will produce a
>nebular remnant like the Crab Nebula or Veil Nebula.  These are also
>bright nebulae, which tend to expand dissipate faster (they have more "kick"
>behind them).
>
>You'd have to decide how violent the occasion was when your two stars were
>blown up, but in either case you'd get a region of relatively dense (but
>*bright*)
>nebulosity.  The time-frame you're talking about might be reasonable.  If I
>remember correctly, all the nebulae I've just referred to are thought to be at
>most 20,000 years old.  You might have a white dwarf at the location of each
>of your victim stars.
>
        Hi, Jon!  Thanks for the great info.
        So, just to be sure I understand what you understand, the nebula
would be "bright" due to excitaiton from the left over white dwarf, yes?  If
the remnant was reasonably "cool", such as a brown dwarf, then the amount of
excitation and therefore luminosity would be negiligible, do you suppose?  
        The weapon used was similar to the "trilithium" warhead in "ST:TNG
Generations"...  it basically "shuts off" the star at the nuclear level
(Hells own Nuke Damper) so there would have been lots of matter to blow off,
and a "cold" remnant.  I doubt the players will ever have to worry about it,
but I want my map to make as much sense as possible, given the seriousness
of the change to near space I am talking about.
        Any idea how "wide" the Crab and Veil Nebula are?  If not I am sure
I can find it on the web...  
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:47:59 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

<sssnip>

>News is so
>clearly such a valuable commodity that I am surprised that anyone would
>argue that it isnt worth gigacredits to be consistently the first with it.


<sssnip>

I can think of one very obvious source for a jump-6 network.

Any news media megacorp in Imperial space (or even a
almost-but-not-quite-megacorp), would most likely benefit hugely from a
jump-6 network. After all, those who report the news first get market share.

If you have a jump-4 news network, and a jump-6 news network, who do you
think the public are going to pay the most attention to?

Or that matter, if you have two holovid distributors, one at jump-4, and the
other at jump-6, which one do you think will be supplying all the premiers?

Or maybe you all think that news and entertainment media will not be a big
cash industry in the Far Future.

The TNS jump-6 net, anyone?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 22:48:08 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files

In the next few days, I plan to post several ship designs to my Web
site.  Rather than simply post the text description, I want to include
for download the spreadsheet (Andrew Akins' FF&S2 spreadsheet, version
3.2, for Excel 5.0) I used in the design (that way, you can tinker with
them to your heart's content).

What I would like to know is this:  Would it be better to post the .ZIP
file (at approximately 230k per ship), or a self-extracting .ZIP file
(at about 340k per ship)?  I have about 10 MB of space left on my
GeoCities site, so I can post several ship either way.


- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:55:44 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

>Yes, I agree that the NZ government is dumber than mud.  So is the
>Australian government.
>
>IMO the ANZAC frigates are good for two things only:
>1.  Subsidising the Australian shipbuilding industry.
>2.  Allowing the US navy to have token client forces with them next time
>they fight a war.


Bravo!
What we really need for policing the waters of our island nation are some
fast patrol boats! Not useless (to us anyway) frigates!
Bang an anti-sub mortar on your PT and throw in some cannon (20-30mm) and
you've got enough to stop the largest threat we are able to stop anyhow. The
frigates are a waste of money that could have been more effectively spent.

>So: who will the NZ navy be fighting?  Australia?  The US?  France?
>IMO most likely it would be supporting an "intervention" in some place like
>Fiji, Vanuatu or Bougainville, or "showing the flag" in the Gulf.

Yeah! get them Aussies! Imagine, beating us at rugby... :)

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:57:16 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

>>Yeah, McDonnell-Douglas is hurting, their chief supporters in
>Congress
>>got kicked out.
>
> They're hurting even more than you think, because they didn't make
>the sale to NZ ... the F-16 is a *Lockheed* product. Although
>Lockheed may not be getting much off this sale, either, as it sounds
>like these are used or surplus models (the A & B are fairly old
>variants ...)

AFAIK they are used ones. Still better than the Skyhawks we have at present
though.

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:53:11 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller

>I'm a bit behind, I know.  I haven't been playing Traveller for close to
>a year now.  So, I'm in my FLGS tonight, checking out the stuff, and run
>across a copy of GURPS: Traveller.  I wanted to see what they did...
>
>...and it was like stepping back in time looking at old GDW Classic Trav
>stuff.
>


Now you know how I felt when the Hardback arrived.  Made me homesick for my
dear old Traveller Book (hardback one) that flooded several years ago.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:50:21 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

>
> They're hurting even more than you think, because they didn't make
>the sale to NZ ... the F-16 is a *Lockheed* product. Although
>Lockheed may not be getting much off this sale, either, as it sounds
>like these are used or surplus models (the A & B are fairly old
>variants ...)


I may be wrong here guys, but General Dynamics builds the F-16 right here in
Texas.
Now Lockheed may have bought GD, but I doubt it.
I have friends who are Midmanagers with GD and I could ask, but I don't
think I am wrong here.
Can't believe NZ bought A and B models.
More like a USAF Used plane sale than anything else.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:04:55 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: New New Zealand

>Doesnt New Zealand have a couple of Orion patrol aircraft as well ?


Uhuh, damn hady those things are too, we probly should have got more of
them...

Cheers,
 Anson

God I hate Outlook Express.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 22:16:34 -0800
From: "Kirk L. Kroeker" <kkroeker@earthlink.net>
Subject: Information on Classic Traveller


I wonder whether anybody can tell me where I might find classic Traveller or
how much it (and the original modules) might cost? Are there any sites on
the Internet that might have relevant info? Do you know of any conventions
where Traveller material is sold?

Thanks a lot,

Kirk
kkroeker@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 01:32:30 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files

- -----Original Message-----
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, December 03, 1998 12:02 AM
Subject: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files


>In the next few days, I plan to post several ship designs to my Web
>site.  Rather than simply post the text description, I want to include
>for download the spreadsheet (Andrew Akins' FF&S2 spreadsheet, version
>3.2, for Excel 5.0) I used in the design (that way, you can tinker with
>them to your heart's content).
>
>What I would like to know is this:  Would it be better to post the .ZIP
>file (at approximately 230k per ship), or a self-extracting .ZIP file
>(at about 340k per ship)?  I have about 10 MB of space left on my
>GeoCities site, so I can post several ship either way.


Ice,

I've been using Adobe Acrobat to make up packages for my plans (none are
truely complete, mostly due to the fact that I'm working a campaign that,
along with Real Life, is killing my time!). When they are done I hope to
include deck plans, visual and text descriptions, and a graphic illo., I'll
send tha spread sheet on request. The adobe files are greatly reduced in
size to the originals, I'm not sure how they'd react to being ZIPped. One of
the reasons for this is to allow them to be cross platform (IBM/Mac can both
read adobe).

As to plain ZIP or self-extracting, I'd say plain, it reduces the file
slightly more. Most IBM type owners (I sure) have some type of zip
extraction. If not the can always grab one off of someplace like WWW.
Download.com . I'm not sure if the Mac users can use ZIP or not? If not a .
txt file might be useful for them.

Mike Peters, Letterworks@CITnet.com
webpage:"Jump Point" http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's
sake. The great affair is to move."
Robert Louis Stevenson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 00:08:14 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I
...
>show that various large organizations could afford to build
>a higher jump system with a small fraction (usually down
>around 1% of their budgets)...

 Less than 0.01%, in the case of Mora - and that to connect the
entire Imperial Marches to Capital. "Maintenance" would be 5-10%
of that, except that they'd be supporting it through willingly
paid fees for services rendered - and cheap at the price, too.

>a) At least one of them, once you got down to net profit,
>had a 5% difference.  A large corp most certainly cares if
>their net profit changes by even 1%.

  But not, seemingly, if their profits are to go up?

>b) Most of the analyses are forced to make assumptions that,
>while "reasonable" could also be reasonably made at values
>that are quite different.

  OK, I just don't recall your deigning to dispute either the
source material or the calculations.

>c) "a" and "b" are irrelvant anyway because no large corp
>is going to spend even 1% (or 0.01%) of their budget on
>something that they don't see a return for.  So the %age
>of a corp's budget it would take to do it is irrelevant.

  Interesting theory. OC, the % it would take _is_ relevant
to the likelihood of a project being undertaken, especially
if it's likely to show a profit. YMMV.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 00:16:38 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: GURPS Traveller auction lots

>From: Steve Jackson Games 
>Subject: GURPS Traveller auction lots
...
>Currently available in the SJ Games Auction:
>Three identical lots, each with the softbound first edition of GURPS
>Traveller, signed by Steve Jackson, Marc Miller, and Loren Wiseman.
>
>Visit http://www.sjgames.com/auction/ to bid!
...

  <drool>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 00:17:55 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: February Releases

>From: Steve Jackson Games
>Subject: February Releases
...
>FEBRUARY RELEASES	 (Shipping Feb. 8)
...
>Cardboard Heroes: Fantasy
>	Another often-requested reprint is our Cardboard Heroes line . . .
>beautifully drawn full-color stand-up figures. Much cheaper than
>miniatures, and more convenient too! We are reissuing all 13 sets of
>fantasy-themed Cardboard Heroes in one pack, and adding duplicates of some
>of the "cannon-fodder" figures like orcs and undead. Over 400 stand-up
>figures, plus over 300 flat counters for traps, dropped weapons, creepy
>crawlers and the like!
>	Stock #2100, ISBN 1-55634-370-1. $19.95.

  Hopefully this increases our chances of seeing the four (?) sets of 
Traveller Cardboard Heroes again before the turn of the century?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:48:56 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: New New Zealand

At 18:04 3/12/98 +1300, Anson Betts wrote:
>
>>Doesnt New Zealand have a couple of Orion patrol aircraft as well ?
>
>
>Uhuh, damn hady those things are too, we probly should have got more of
>them...

We'll shortly have less of them. They're getting long in the tooth and are
hellishly expensive to buy. Thus we're supposedly looking for a cheaper
alternative, but I doubt we'll bother replacing them, more's the pity.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:46:42 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

I had originally intended to ignore this whole thread as off-topic, but
having started in I can't resist further temptation:

At 17:55 3/12/98 +1300, Anson Betts wrote:

>Bravo!
>What we really need for policing the waters of our island nation are some
>fast patrol boats! Not useless (to us anyway) frigates!
>Bang an anti-sub mortar on your PT and throw in some cannon (20-30mm) and
>you've got enough to stop the largest threat we are able to stop anyhow. The
>frigates are a waste of money that could have been more effectively spent.

A few minor problems with using patrol boats - with what will we show the
flag in the Cook Is, etc? How does one render assistance to Pacfic Islands
and private vessels after hurricanes using a fast patrol boat? And most
important, how does one patrol our southern waters during a winter storm?
Bear in mind that if your patrol boat is in harbour during a storm the
fishing vessels (which are ocean going) will ride out the storm, steal the
fish while the boats are moving out to sea and be gone by the time the
boats get there.

If we had the money for six+ frigate I'd be all for only having three
(enough to have at least one at sea at all times) and spending the rest on
fast missile boats, but without some form of blue water navy there's no
point having patrol boats.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 01:16:03 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

...
  Hopefully this increases our chances of seeing the four (?) sets of 
Traveller Cardboard Heroes again before the turn of the century?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:48:27 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: February Releases

>  Hopefully this increases our chances of seeing the four (?) sets
of >Traveller Cardboard Heroes again before the turn of the century?


I've got a scan of one of the sheets of marines sitting on my hard
drive somewhere, I print them direct to good card stock with a
colour inkjet whenever I need some more.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 02:33:14 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Megacorps: Finances & Structure (was Re: Stock trading)

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network
...
>However, stocks as a method of capitalization of business are just too
>damn useful to go away; it is a cornerstone of economic development as
>we know it. The rate at which they are traded may change, but the
>concept remains the same.

  FWIW, the Imperium may very well not recognize the concept of "insider
trading" as being related to messaging lags. Sure, concealing information
or colluding to manipulate a market may be offences (and if not Imperial
then certainly recognized as applying throughout the Imperium) but being
in possession of more recent info and using it would be unlikely to be
punishable simply because enforcement would be a genuine nightmare.

  As someone pointed out about the size and availability of capital pools,
Imperial megacorps may be a lot more like the Japanese (& vaguely like the
German, IIRC) model of a core financial institution and the businesses that
accumulated over time. Although the main business may not be structured that
way (although Tukera for one certainly looks it with all the subsidiary lines)
the impracticality of central control of day to day business means that each
sector (or smaller) unit will tend to function independently, with operations
only becoming more coherent as the time horizons of projects begins to over-
shadow the normal commo lag (i.e., 5-year plans may make sense, but fixes to
allow for local conditions have to be made on the spot).

       Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:19:21 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

>         The weapon used was similar to the "trilithium" warhead in "ST:TNG
> Generations"...  it basically "shuts off" the star at the nuclear level
> (Hells own Nuke Damper) so there would have been lots of matter to blow off,
> and a "cold" remnant.  
 
 You shut off all nuclear reaction in a star's core, result: with all
photon pressure gone the star collapses into itself. Unless there is
something actually _sustaining_ the nuclear damping after the fusion in
the star dies (unlikely), you'll end up with a) a neutron star, b) a black
hole, depending on the mass of the original star.
  And of course you also have the rapidly expanding shell of stellar
ejecta, which again is glowing like crazy being excited by sychrotron
(etc.) radiation either from the neutron star or the black hole's
accretion disk.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 03:20:55 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network III

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network III
>
>>>Furthermore, if a more expensive ship it going to take the
>>>message, they will either have to charge _everyone_ more to
>>>take the message, or find some way of singling out only those
>>>who wouldn't pay more and giving them a discount (a tricky
>>>proposition at best).
>
>If the ship is going to get there faster for the better
>paying customers, then it will get there faster for
>everyone.

  I'm unclear as to why you're responding to your own previous paragraph,
but I'll concede the point as you've indicated that data capacity is not
a problem. However, J-5+ couriers can offer _cheaper_ service than J-4.

>> - this would be possible if the data
>>required on a given trip took more "cargo" capacity than the ship
>>had, although that seems unlikely given data storage density.
>
>As someone (you?) pointed out.  This will never be a problem.

  Mr. Prior, I believe. However, this eliminates the complaint that J-6
couriers have low cargo capacity, as it's not an issue to their mission.

>>Another
>>is to provide faster service over long (out of sector) distances by
>>sending it with the "larger-than-minimum-for-J-6" hull that a _parcel_
>>service might send every month to clean up backlogs, bumps, and discount
>>services. There might also be passengers* running steerage along with
>>the Marches to Ilelish Economy parcels.
>
>The point what that being able to carry less urgent mail would
>help pay for the jump-6 network.  If you are sending it by
>another route, then it won't help.

  Your meaning here is unclear - to what are you referring?

>>>Will all the traffic along that route be willing to pay more for a
>>>33% decrease in transit time?  Are messages that need the
>>>increased speed freqent enough to justify the service?
>>>That is debatable.
>
>>  No and almost certainly yes, respectively.
>
>Well, as I said, that is debatble.

  What about the fact that the J-4 service (and forget about the
meandering 2.6 parsec average concept) is more expensive than J-5
service, and very little cheaper than J-6?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1232
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, December 3 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1233



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: New New Zealand
Re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files
Re: Information on Classic Traveller
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
JumpExpress Model F6
Re: Information on Classic Traveller
Re: Survey Speeds
Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller
Re: Fast Couriers
Spacejacks : Working the Face
Re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files
Re:Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files
Re: G:T gearheadedness
Re: Information on Classic Traveller
Re: Repatriation Bonds
Updated version of PE spreadsheet (v1.30)
Re: G:T ship design questions
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Light Freighter

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:16:13 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: New New Zealand

>The Anzac Frigates are quite capable of
>blue-water operation, so I'd call them
>Frigates rather than SDBs - they should
>be jump-2 capable at least.


Definitely. Though only just, and not particulalry well armed.

>Doesnt New Zealand have a couple of Orion
>patrol aircraft as well ?

It has several, and for a while in the eighties they
had some of the most modern ASW equipment in the world, but even
before that we regularly won the Fincastle trophy for
ASW work.

Of course, we always had to hide the the little switch that launched
the nukes at air-shows, wouldn't do to let the public know that
nuclear-free New Zealand has nuclear-capable aircraft.

>I dont know about gov type 4, but Mongo
>(1204 Jewell/Spinward Marches) comes pretty
>close

Just don't put us anywhere near them damn Centaurs !

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:22:33 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files

From:           	"Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Date sent:      	Thu, 3 Dec 1998 01:32:30 -0500

>As to plain ZIP or self-extracting, I'd say plain, it reduces the file
>slightly more. Most IBM type owners (I sure) have some type of zip
>extraction. If not the can always grab one off of someplace like WWW.
>Download.com . I'm not sure if the Mac users can use ZIP or not? If not a .
>txt file might be useful for them.

There are several utilities that enable mac users to handle zip (stuffit deluxe 
and unzipit spring to mind). I don't have the URLs handy, but do a web search 
with the keywords "mac zip". I'm sure some of the regular mac users could 
provide a lot more.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:27:25 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Information on Classic Traveller

On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Kirk L. Kroeker wrote:

 
> I wonder whether anybody can tell me where I might find classic Traveller or
> how much it (and the original modules) might cost? Are there any sites on
> the Internet that might have relevant info? Do you know of any conventions
> where Traveller material is sold?

 You might want to check out www.weekendwarrior.com. I haven't ordered
anything  from them myself, so I don't know if they can actually
deliver what they promise, but the on-line catalof of Traveller stuff
looks _extremely_ appetizing.
 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:29:10 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

>Bravo!
>What we really need for policing the waters of our island nation
are some fast patrol boats! Not useless (to us anyway) frigates!

No, we need diesel electric submarines !

With flying boats to refuel them !

<snip>
>Yeah! get them Aussies! Imagine, beating us at rugby... :)


Not such a silly idea. If Pauline Hanson had got in.....

:-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 03:34:25 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: JumpExpress Model F6

...
>        F6      XP-1661661-000000-00000-0       MCr 135.8      140 tons
>                                                                 TL=15.
>                                                                Crew=1.
>        Cargo=1.3. Fuel=63. EP=8.4. Agility=1. Low=1.

  Oops. L-Hyd was allocated at 63_%_, or 88.2 tons. We apologize for any
inconvenience this may have caused. (OTOH, it proves that nobody bothers
reverse engineering any of these, so now we know that we can get away
with anything - bwa-ha-ha!).

>  Cost per ship is up over 40%, and cost per ton of cargo by ~_700_%.

  As pointed out during the recent discussions, cost per ton of cargo
delivered by data couriers is not relevant as their capacity is deemed
adequate (proving that a computer 5/6 does more than just play Pong).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 03:45:19 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Information on Classic Traveller

>From: "Kirk L. Kroeker" <kkroeker@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Information on Classic Traveller
>
>I wonder whether anybody can tell me where I might find classic Traveller or
>how much it (and the original modules) might cost? Are there any sites on
>the Internet that might have relevant info? Do you know of any conventions
>where Traveller material is sold?

  Try Titan Games <www.titan-games.com> for one. Failing that, there should
be an auction/sale or two announced on the TML every once in a while.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:50:02
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Survey Speeds

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Survey Speeds
>
>        Here's another question for the ever-helpful folks of the TML.  I am
>tryng to sort out exploration dates for MTU.  What is a "reasonable" rate of
>first visit/ survey?  In other words, at TL9/10, postlating a healthy
>economy and government interest in growing to the stars, how many worlds
>could you visit and survey per year? 
>        3, 6, 12, 24, how-ever-many-you-want?  Trying to come up with a rule
>of thumb for the age of various systems.  Thanks!

Well, most of this depends on how well-surveyed a system has to be before
you can jump out of it again.

If all you need is fuel, a working jump drive, and a computer running
Generate, then you could happily do 52 parsecs along a main (200 dton
jump-1 ship, 2 spare j-drives, spare power plant, m-drives, computers,
extra fuel tankage - when you need maintainence, just switch to the
backups. Should be good for a 3 year voyage).

If you need to spend 6 months exhaustivly tracking every planetary body and
rogue comet, before ships can jump out of a system, then things are going
to be a bit slower.

Of course, a state may now *want* to explore too much, for fear of finding
someone bigger.

You may also have 'rogue' free traders expanding Known Space without
government knowledge or permission (this was one of the things that caused
technology to leak out of the Ziru Sirkaa, possibly to the Terrans).

If you are interested in this sort of stuff, you should really get hold of
T4's Pocket Empires. It'll give you a lot to think about.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:55:59 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller

At 19:28 02/12/1998 -0800, swordworlder@yahoo.com wrote:
>---Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>> swordworlder@yahoo.com writes:
>> 
>>> That's it, I can't stand it anymore.  I've got to see this stuff for
>>> myself.  How do I find out where the closest GURPS dealer is? >>
>> 
>> I hate to undercut retailers and distributors, but you can order
>direct from SJG if all else fails; check their website
>
>I need to see / feel the stuff, first.  I'm having a hard time
>believing that it's any good.  And is it worth having if you aren't
>going to use the GURPS rule books?
>

BUY IT!

Having read through G:T and BTC, they are both worth buying for the
background, even if you don't want to use GURPS.

Having FFS1&2, LBB#6, WBH, and not intending to use the system,
I think that I'll avoid Basic and the generic sourcebooks.

This is from someone with plenty of CT and MT stuff, whose campaign is
set in M0 and awaits T5 (The misjump is supposed to take them away from
Sylea. It might now take them to the Spinward Marches instead of the
other side of the Two Thousand Worlds - you see I am a nice guy:> -
but my conscience is fighting a desperate attempt not to pitch them into
Y1105).

The above is IMHO and I'll accept no liability if you claim to have
followed this advice and were disapointed.

Phil Kitching

(Am I overdoing the abbreviations?
I don't want this message to look like an ASL rule :-)
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:13:34
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network III
>
>>>>Furthermore, if a more expensive ship it going to take the
>>>>message, they will either have to charge _everyone_ more to
>>>>take the message, or find some way of singling out only those
>>>>who wouldn't pay more and giving them a discount (a tricky
>>>>proposition at best).
>>
>>If the ship is going to get there faster for the better
>>paying customers, then it will get there faster for
>>everyone.

Ditzie wants me to note (1) that the *ship* will, but if you have
contracted with Famile Spofulam for a delivery of a packet in 23 days, and
our ship arrives in 21 days, then the packet comes out of the box on the
23rd day.

If you want 'fastest possible delivery' then you pay for fastest possible
delivery.

But you didnt, so you get what you contracted for. And if you dont like it,
pay premium rates, like your competition do.

Ian Whitchurch

(1) Ditzie is much calmer these days. She is busying herself with something
called 'FFS Compliant High Guard'. Oh yes, and rapid fire anti-personell
fusion guns.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:55:46
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Spacejacks : Working the Face

This stuff is something that I've been kicking around for a couple of days,
ever since I noticed how vicious the G:T streamlining rules were, and
started figuring out ways around it.

It's mostly G:T, but has relevance to most other flavours of Traveller.

I may submit it to Pyramid ... Andrew ? Bloo ? Loren ? Anyone else know the
procedure ?

*************************************************************************

The Spacejacks : Working the Face


'Arbuthot Princess to Beck Three ... come in Beck Three'

'Beck Three to Arbuthot Princess ... we are on a matching course ... I have
eight units of biofreight and nine barrels of lighter fluid ... prepare for
contact in eight ... over'

'Arbuthot Princess to Beck Three ... Roger ... thanks for the lighter fluid
... us facehuggers need our drinks ... we'll need five rounds ... we got
four ice and six carbonaceuos ... make sure the biofreight leaves the seats
clean ... over'

'Roger that Arbuthot ... the biofreight are in their suits ... tunnel is
loaded ... I'll swap you my eight shippies for your ten rocks ... over'

'Arbuthot to Beck Three ... velocity is zero. Send em over ... over and out'

'Orbital Team One Leader to Arbuthot ... exiting Beck Three ... you dimmers
got your load sorted, for five batches, right ? ... And remember, if you
could fly that tub, you wouldnt need us upshoremen ... over and out'

****************************************************************************

One of the realities of space is that whilst the pilots get all the glory,
a lot of ships just arent built to navigate the high winds of an upper
atmosphere. That is where the Spacejacks come in ... small teams of men and
women who work in the cold hard vacuum of high orbit, transferring cargo
from Free Traders to small Lighters that serve the less-developed worlds of
our Imperium.

Typically, they operate out of small gigs and lighters, manhandling barrels
of Liquid Hydrogen into the ravening bellies of starships, and maneuvering
pallets of precious cargo the other way, safely into the body of a graceful
gig or cutter.

Once the cargo is shifted, they usually wait in the cargo hold of the
trading ship, as any passengers are moved across to the gig for the trip
down through the atmosphere.

The small craft then swoops home, is unloaded, and then climbs back into
the blackness of space with another cargo of drums of ell-aitch-deee.

Eventually, usually after six to eight trips, the job is done and the
Spacejacks can go back to their home ... except, for a Spacejack, home
truly is the gravity-free blackness of high orbit ...

Ramon Tilaarkus, 102-1116

****************************************************************************
*******

<note for accuracy ... Ramon Tilaarkus never actually left the comfortable
surroundings of the bar of the Traveller's Aid Society in Regina to write
that story>

Spacejack : Struggling job, pre-reqs Freight Handling 10+, Vacc Suit 10 +,
Free Fall 10+, ST 10+. Pay is $60 * best appropriate skill, + $100 if
Leadership 10+ ("Foreman")

Success : Worst PR -2i/4d,LJ

Also known as Orbitals, Upshoremen, Shippies or Biofreight (the latter by
starship crews), these spacers specialise in moving cargo to and from
starships in orbit.

Typically, a team of Spacejacks works in conjunction with a Gig and it's
pilot on some under-developed world. They contract to shift the cargo off a
trading ship, and shift LHyd onto it, usually for Cr 100 per dton of
either, plus the cost of the LHyd.

This is a good deal for the Free Trader, as it allows unstreamlined ships
to avoid risking the planetary atmosphere, and the fees will provide a
decent return on the enterprise.

Like all workers, they have their own jargon ... their small craft are
lighters, so LHyd is 'lighter fluid'. Middle passengers are carbonaceous,
so high passengers are obviously ice, because ice asteroids are more
valuable to a belter than carbonaceous. The edge of the atmosphere is the
'interface' or 'face', so an unstreamlined ship is a 'facehugger'. Starship
crews are 'dimmers', referring to the Vilani habit of dimming the lights on
a ship just prior to jump.

Ian Whitchurch

(c) Ian Whitchurch 1998. 

House rule : Make a piloting roll to land a ship ... failure allows a
re-roll if your ship has G:T streamlining. Pilot is at +1 if you have
accurate weather reports. Failure results in surface damage, usually to
sensors or communicators. Critical failures may result in a crash.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 11:58:01 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files

At 22:48 02/12/1998 -0600, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>In the next few days, I plan to post several ship designs to my Web
>site.  Rather than simply post the text description, I want to include
>for download the spreadsheet (Andrew Akins' FF&S2 spreadsheet, version
>3.2, for Excel 5.0) I used in the design (that way, you can tinker with
>them to your heart's content).
>
>What I would like to know is this:  Would it be better to post the .ZIP
>file (at approximately 230k per ship), or a self-extracting .ZIP file
>(at about 340k per ship)?  I have about 10 MB of space left on my
>GeoCities site, so I can post several ship either way.
>
230k sounds better.

You could always post a PD unzipper (or a link to one) so that people
only have to download it once if needed.

However, what about those save light macros?

(Bother, they only seem to be for Excel 5.0, my Excel 97 doesn't have them,
 or were they dropped from version 3 of the spreadsheet?)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 07:53:09 -0500
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files

Those of us with Macs can unzip with either the Stuffit Expander or
ZipIt applications.
I have not been able to do anything with a self extracting zip file.
As a straight zip file, it'll be a faster download (for those of us still
stuck with 28.8 connections).

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:19:44 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: G:T gearheadedness

>>Anyway, a mostly smooth sphere or cylinder should be capable of making
>>planetfall with contragravity, as long as you didnt leave too many bits
>>sticking out.
>>**************
>>They can, but have no landing gear, so you would have to land on water
>>(most ships will float.)
>Great. So 300 blokes with shovels can build us a minimum starport, or you
>park just outside a seaport.
>Seaports are better, becuase they should already have warehouses, ferries,
>tugs, rail links and so on.
>****************
>yep, sounds like a class D starport to me, unrefined fuel available.
>
Sounds like the situation near the beginning of the century just after
airline travel began to become popular. You needed the flying boats since
the only airports were seaports, there were very few airstrips available.
May want to check out some historical references from that period for some
ideas.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 07:55:53 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: Information on Classic Traveller

Try www.crazyegor.com

He's got lots of used stuff and even excepts your "want list."  I think he just 
came into a big collection of old CT stuff

> I wonder whether anybody can tell me where I might find classic Traveller
> or how much it (and the original modules) might cost? Are there any sites
> on the Internet that might have relevant info? Do you know of any
> conventions where Traveller material is sold?
> 


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:55:51 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Repatriation Bonds

Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> writes:
>Walter Smith wrote:
>> I'd see it as a very odd situation if a private mercenary company got a
>> ride on _any_ Imperial Navy craft. The Imperium "tolerates" mercenaries,
>> remember? 
>
>Well in Fifth Frontier War I've got counters for quite a few mercenary
>regiments. And the BatRons have the ability to carry them.

Those mercenaries were hired by the Imperium. That's different from
carrying mercenaries who are freelancing or just being repatriated.

That's aplot opening, though. A mercenary unit needs to activate their
repatriation bonds, but there's no transport offworld. An Imperial Captain
offers offworld transport in exchange for the unit doing a job...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 03:12:48 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Updated version of PE spreadsheet (v1.30)

I think I have finally got my PE spreadsheet working. It now handles 
infrastructure exceeding resources (almost, it still doesn't cope if this reduces 
available resources below 0 but I'm working on that), calculates gross GDP, 
available budgets and world popularity. If anybody would like a revised copy, 
please email me.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:23:55 -0500
From: Christopher Pratt <valen@gatecom.com>
Subject: Re: G:T ship design questions

Hello all

My first questions concerns armor for ships.
I know how to add armor to a ship, but how much armor should a ship.
the ships included in the GT book, have vastly varying armor rates.
for example, the Dragon Class SDB (page 144) has a DR of
1011, ok...its a combat vessel, its supposed to have armor. 
The Broadsword class mercenary cruiser (page 139) also a
combat vessel, unless I'm mistaken, has a DR of 100.  quite
a discrepancy.  The two other combat starships in the GT
book, both fighters, the rampart and Iramada class fighters
(both on page 138) have DRs of 1175 and 200 respectively.  I
had originally thought that this was due to the difference
in tech levels, with the rampart being TL12 and the iramada
being TL10, but both the dragon and the broadsword are TL10.

My next problem is with the cost and mass of the armor. 
should armor at TL12 cost more and have more mass than the
ships hull?

thanks in advance
- -- 
later
christopher pratt
valen@gatecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:40:54 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

>I had originally intended to ignore this whole thread as off-topic, but
>having started in I can't resist further temptation:
>
>At 17:55 3/12/98 +1300, Anson Betts wrote:
>>Bravo!
>>What we really need for policing the waters of our island nation are some
>>fast patrol boats! Not useless (to us anyway) frigates!
>>Bang an anti-sub mortar on your PT and throw in some cannon (20-30mm) and
>>you've got enough to stop the largest threat we are able to stop anyhow. The
>>frigates are a waste of money that could have been more effectively spent.
>
>A few minor problems with using patrol boats - with what will we show the
>flag in the Cook Is, etc? How does one render assistance to Pacfic Islands
>and private vessels after hurricanes using a fast patrol boat? And most
>important, how does one patrol our southern waters during a winter storm?
>Bear in mind that if your patrol boat is in harbour during a storm the
>fishing vessels (which are ocean going) will ride out the storm, steal the
>fish while the boats are moving out to sea and be gone by the time the
>boats get there.
>
>If we had the money for six+ frigate I'd be all for only having three
>(enough to have at least one at sea at all times) and spending the rest on
>fast missile boats, but without some form of blue water navy there's no
>point having patrol boats.

Sounds to me like you need a Medium Endurance Cutter (MEC) along the lines
of U.S. Coast Guard 210' WMECs.  See http://www.uscg.mil/datasheet/wmec.htm
for details.

Two major problems with this idea are; 1) No "real" armament on the WMEC
like AA missiles or ASW Equipment, only machine guns and one light 25mm gun
and 2). I think you're stuck for political reasons with whatever the ANZAC
Frigate is.

Number 1). is easily solved.  I recently (well, last summer) had the
opportunity to tour a couple of "Frigate Navy" frigates (Canada, Germany,
The Netherlands, Gr. Britain) and one thing I found on some of those
frigates was the modular nature of the weapons systems.  AAW and SS missile
were pretty much stacked up on the deck, which made them fairly easy to
add/replace/service.  I'm sure the price in terms of damage control
problems (debateable) and increased wear and tear (mitigatable) of systems
mounted this way is made up for by the advantages, but I couldn't help
thinking; any ship could be outfitted with these weapons...assuming a few
square meters of deck space could be found.  Why escort tankers when they
can be provided

ASW is, of course, handled by ship launched helos, which were part of all
the frigate designs.

Problem 2) is related to the subject line and I offer no solutions, being a
yank and having no right to advise others on politics (although that
doesn't stop my compatriots).

To bring this kicking and screaming back to traveller;  I've always wanted
to mount missiles on the outside of my fighters...kind of like contemporary
aircraft.  That also leads to mounting external missile 'pods' on just
about any craft in the traveller inventory.  Aside from decreasing
acceleration performance (significantly in some cases) what is wrong with
this tactic?

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:49:43 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

At 10:50 PM 12/2/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>
>> They're hurting even more than you think, because they didn't make
>>the sale to NZ ... the F-16 is a *Lockheed* product. Although
>>Lockheed may not be getting much off this sale, either, as it sounds
>>like these are used or surplus models (the A & B are fairly old
>>variants ...)
>
>
>I may be wrong here guys, but General Dynamics builds the F-16 right here in
>Texas.
>Now Lockheed may have bought GD, but I doubt it.
>I have friends who are Midmanagers with GD and I could ask, but I don't
>think I am wrong here.
>Can't believe NZ bought A and B models.
>More like a USAF Used plane sale than anything else.

Lockheed purchased the aviation assets fo General Dynamics, GD's Ft. Worth
Division IIRC, several years ago.  They did not purchase the entire company.  

The aircraft in question were originally purchased and paid for by Pakistan
before the became a nuclear power.  

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:58:14 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: Light Freighter

Regarding the Light Frieghter, or "Great Minds think alike"<G>.

I seem to recall building someting like that back when T4 only had the
QSDS system.  wanted to see what the least expensive starship would run.
I called it the Polo/Tradesman Class.Think it's still on my website.  Yes,
at: http://magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/polo.htm

I converted that thing to GT recently.  
It is almost exactly that of Aerron's design below, but only one rather
minor difference.
Instead of using a spacedock, I used a vehicle bay for the air raft.  I
was able to squeeze in an extra manuever module.  The difference in
acceleration is minimal.  Also Aerron has an extra .5 tons of cargo in his
bay.  This difference could be explained like the different models of cars
we have today. ;-)

I dont have GT handy, could someone add up the "Ship Patron" points for
this one?
I think this would be a good PC ship.

>Good Idea, Same ship, converted to GT.
>=====================================================================
>Khushdakaa class Light Frieghter (TL 10)
>Crew: Pilot.
>100 Space SL Hull, 100DR, Basic Bridge, Engineering, 10 Manuver, 2 Jump,
10
>Fuel, SpaceDock (Holds 0.5, 1 Door), 2 Staterooms, Utility, Atmosphere
>Processor, Turret, 42.5 cargo (+3 in turret).

>Statistics:  EMass 150.025, LMass 380.925, Cost 16.9516MCr(Without
>Discount), HP 15,000.

>Performance: Accel 1.05 Gs, Jump 1, Air Speed 1666, Size Modifier +8.

I have also converted the design to High Guard.  It will be on the website
as well.
Here are the stats:

100ton wedge hull
Bridge,  Computer-1
Jump-1  Jump Fuel-10   
Manuever-1  Power Plant-1 (EP=1) Power Fuel-1 (4wk duration)
Fuel Scoops,   Fuel Processor
Empty Turret
3 Half Staterooms
Cargo-50tons
31.4Mcr    Agil=1

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1233
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, December 3 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1234



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vailidity of the Canon Trading Model
FF&S Alternate Techs?
Courier route efficiency (long and probably rambling)
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: FF&S Alternate Techs?
Re: Some questions...
Re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Some questions...
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Traveller's Elder Races
Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Space Religion (on topic)
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:10:23 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Vailidity of the Canon Trading Model

>>>>
        Thank-you.  You just cemented my whole problem with the Canon
arrangement right there...  How did they *get* to be Megacorps, if they only
things capable of "ignoring" the problems of operating on this scale *are*
megacorps?
        How brutally Darwinian is it?  At what TL, and thus jump and thus
comms rate, can you "grow" a Megacorp?
        Once you have the resources of a Megacorp to draw on, yes, only
Collosal bad luck or missmanagement will kill you.  In the meantime.....
And once the first Megacorp climbed the evolutionary ladder, why didn't it
EAT everything else threatening to become a Megacorp?
        Follow me now?  Or am I still missing something here?
>>>>
An interesting correlation might be the growth of the automobile
manufacturers.  when they (cars) were new, there were a bunch of
manufacturers.  There were dozens in the US, and quite a number in the
UK and Europe.  At this early stage, cars were modifications of
existing technology (truely horseless carriages), and could be made by
practically anyone who knew how to make carriages.  As technology
changed and they went from being horseless carriages to I.C.E.
automobiles, the skill set needed to create them changed and
drastically reduced the number of people who could undertake the task.
 Then when Ford rationalized (from the mechanical point of view
anyway) the production process, the amount of capital involved in
setting up a car plant grew enormously to the point where a lot of the
smaller companies were eaten by the bigger (more stable) companies. 
We ended up with a handful of worldwide "megacorps" who build cars. 
Now we have Ford and GM in the US, who also have massive presence in
Europe and lesser influence in other parts of the world.  We have
Daimler-Chrysler (I think that's the name they settled on) who is a
major presence in the US and Europe, and a fair amount of penetration
in the rest of the world (ex:  almost all the taxis in Israel seem to
have the Mercedes badge on them).  Toyota and Nissan of Japan are huge
in Japan (of course) and common in most of the world.  These first
examples would be the equivalent of "megacorp" status.  The next step
down has firms such as Hyundai, Daewoo, Fiat, and Zil who are dominant
in their home countries, but less common elsewhere.  These would be
equivalent to sector-wide companies.  On a third level are smaller
manufacturers who have more niche products like Lamborghini, Ferarri,
and Zastava (makers of the Yugo).  These would be equivalent to
subsector or planetary companies.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:31:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: FF&S Alternate Techs?

Please forgive me for being uninformed, but I discovered the T4 books 
only recently, and I don't have a copy of FF&S, which lists the 
alternate FLT technologies, etc, that I've heard occasionally 
referenced here on the list.

Could someone help an Old Traveller out, and give me a brief synopsis 
of these alternate technologies, and at what TL are they available?  
If you do not wish to waste TML bandwidth, please send the info 
privately.  Thanks for your time, and I return you to your normally 
scheduled thread...
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:47:37 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Courier route efficiency (long and probably rambling)

I was thinking on courier routes, and whether the length of a mail route
would increase average efficiency or decrease it.

Especially relevant was the irregularity of jump space exit. Even
assuming no misjumps (a reasonable assumption for most regular
merchant traffic), a courier that left seven days ago can still arrive
yesterday or tomorrow (or an even wider span, but these would be
most common).

If the courier route is run by a single ship, making each jump as fast
as possible (say a Mora to Core "War is declared" dispatch boat),
these time differences will tend to average out, and could probably
be ignored. This would even be the case if speed of message from
one end of the run to the other were most significant, as the next
boat could leave within minutes of the previous boat arriving - again,
the time differences would tend to average out.

When you deal with communication nexi and hubs, things start to get
complicated. Now speed of message from end-to-end of route may
not be as significant as maintenance of service on the route.
The courier from Regina may have shown up a day early, but your
courier to Mora can't leave until the courier from Rhylanor shows up - 
otherwise instead of everyone waiting a day for their mail, the mail
from Rhylanor will be a week (depending on the frequency of the service)
late. Fast boats can't speed up mail that's sitting in a port because it
missed the courier, therefore you may have a situation where all legs
of the mail network move at the speed of each slowest part - and the
inefficiencies will be additive (or even multiplicative).

The solution, of course, is to define a level of service and populate the
route with sufficient craft to maintain it, even if some of the craft are
late (or lost, or failed, or misjumped). The level of service needs to be
frequent enough that mail missing one courier can leave on the next one
without undue delay - daily seems to be a good estimate, as I would
say the arrival time variations would make hourly couriers less useful.

So, as a bare minimum - assuming no ships out of service, and no
ships gone a-missing - you will require seven courier ships for every
route leading out from each mail stop. Add three ships to ensure
reliability of service, we're up to ten. A courier can, at best, be in service
96% of the time - the other 4% of the time it's in annual maintenance,
but our three ship overage should be enought to handle that. 

But we're also assuming that both ends of the link (or at least one of
them) can do the annual maintenance on-site. If that isn't possible -
say the next stop spinward of you is a class-C stopover to a high-pop
world ten parsecs away - then service on each craft will take twice (or
more) as long, since the craft has to jump a week away and a week 
back in addition to the two weeks maintenance. We drop from a best-
estimate in-service of 96% down to 92% - or worse. That's enough
to add one, more likely two ships to the per-link requriements, and
remember that replacement ships need annual maintenance too.

It's possible that careful routing of couriers could allow each vessel to
be in a class A or B starport when it needs maintenance. It is more likely
that the best routing will place the courier where it can get maintenance
before it truly needs it - say at 48 weeks instead of 52 weeks, or even
40 weeks. Taking a courier out of service too frequently for maintenance
will cost more, but even the worst case (maintained every 40 weeks 
instead of every 52) you would still be getting a 95% in-service percentage.
This assumes that too-frequent maintenance isn't harmful, which is
probably the case - though I do know of real world(tm) items that you
can wear out prematurely with too-frequent maintenance.

This kind of routing will prevent you from implementing a TMLer's 
suggestion (Ian's?) that you place different craft on each leg, with
exactly the jump drives for their route. It may be hard to optimize
routing for j-3, j-4, j-5 and j-6 craft to allow them to only jump the
routes they were made for, visit a repair port yearly, and not end up
all parked at the far end of a mail leg. 

So, the setup costs of any optimized mail system will equal the
cost of setting up a mail station* on each world, plus 24 couriers** per
world-to-world link in the system (12 each way). If you can send mail in
six directions from Rhylanor, Rhylanor will have 72 couriers assigned
to itself and 72 couriers assigned to jump towards Rhylanor.

* mail station: At minimum a commo station, business office and
access to local repair and maintenance yards. Tankers will probably
be a necessary expense (such as the CT X-Boat tender). If you are
underconfident about local starport facilities or defenses, you may
have to bring your own (drastically increasing the costs).

** courier: What kind? Optimized for the leg they are assiged to, or
one-size fits all to take advantage of volume discounts? Type-S
Scout/Couriers for the jump-2 or less legs, or (if your system allows
it) some kind of sub-100tn X-Boat? Courier (independent starship)
or X-Boat (maneuverless message tube)? What kind of courier, and the
cost, will be heavily design-rules dependent. I would like to note that
Couriers that can land themselves may be able to remove many of
your mail station expenses (from above), at a possible (depending on
your rules system) cost in time. If a round trip takes me 18 days instead
of 14 days (2 days each end to land and take off), it will take fourteen
ships to maintain service one-way instead of twelve - and the cost
difference between an orbital refueling facility and two to four Couriers
would be significant. That would assume the cost of building these
facilities was significant - they may already exist for other purposes,
or system efficiency may be more important to the design than cost.

If system efficiency was the determining factor, I could see some class
C (or even worse) starports seeing a major upgrade when the mail system
comes through - akin to USA midwestern and western towns lucky
enough to be selected for early rail service in the 1800's.

Such a benefit to a system would be valuable enough to make the locals
very interested in the decision-making process, which world gets to be
a hub and which gets to be a backwater side-route. Interested enough
that some of them will do scenario-generating things - bribery,
negotiations, campaigning, information-gathering, etc...all kinds of things
for PC's to get involved with. <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:12:03 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

Anson Betts wrote:
> 
> >Yes, I agree that the NZ government is dumber than mud.  So is the
> >Australian government.
> >
> >IMO the ANZAC frigates are good for two things only:
> >1.  Subsidising the Australian shipbuilding industry.
> >2.  Allowing the US navy to have token client forces with them next time
> >they fight a war.
> 
> Bravo!
> What we really need for policing the waters of our island nation are some
> fast patrol boats! Not useless (to us anyway) frigates!
> Bang an anti-sub mortar on your PT and throw in some cannon (20-30mm) and
> you've got enough to stop the largest threat we are able to stop anyhow. The
> frigates are a waste of money that could have been more effectively spent.
> 
>

Dragging it back to Trav, here's where those gazillions of credits the
IN has at it's disposal can be spent without putting an SDB behind every
asteroid throughout known space...Unlike the super-effecient rational
naval force that everyone is postulating it to be, they dump the money
on large showy ships unsuited to the duties they need to be put to.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:23:36 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

In a message dated 12/2/98 11:06:08 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

>         So, just to be sure I understand what you understand, the nebula
>  would be "bright" due to excitaiton from the left over white dwarf, yes? If
>  the remnant was reasonably "cool", such as a brown dwarf, then the amount of
>  excitation and therefore luminosity would be negiligible, do you suppose?

Possibly.  This would never hapen naturally, but then you're not talking
about a natural occurrence either.  If the stellar core were somehow left
cold, dark, and slow-rotating, then more than likely there wouldn't be
anything to illuminate the nebulosity except nearby stars.

>          Any idea how "wide" the Crab and Veil Nebula are?  If not I am sure
>  I can find it on the web...  

According to my copy of Burnham's, the Crab has an apparent age of about
900 years and is about 6 light-years in diameter.  The Veil Nebula is much
older, maybe 20,000 years old.  It forms the visible segments of the so-called
"Cygnus Loop," which may be about 70 light-years in diameter.  That should
give you some idea of what sizes are reasonable. . .

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:33:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S Alternate Techs?

Jason Kemp wrote:
> 
> Please forgive me for being uninformed, but I discovered the T4 books
> only recently, and I don't have a copy of FF&S, which lists the
> alternate FLT technologies, etc, that I've heard occasionally
> referenced here on the list.
> 
> Could someone help an Old Traveller out, and give me a brief synopsis
> of these alternate technologies, and at what TL are they available?

Well, it's hard to pin a TL on some of these devices, since they are by
definition, Non-Traveller.

There are alternate maneuver and sub-light drives, such as:
 Solar Sails (just about any TL, we could probably make one now if we
wanted)

Bussard ramjets (move a big magnetic scoop through space very fast and
you'll pull in enough hydrogen to sustain a fusion reaction, producing
thrust and power for the scoop. TL-9-ish)

exotic things like the Dadelus drive (drop tiny pellets of deuterium
into a big nozzle, hit them with lasers to cause a tiny fusion
explosion, which pushed you forward. First postulated in the 60's or
70's by the British Interplanetary Society <?>. TL-8-9-ish.) 
Spindizzies, as in James Blish's series Cities in Flight. Reactionless
drives that convert rotary torque into vectored thrust.
Electromechanical antigrav. TL-???

FTL drives limited to gates, pretty much. 

Stationary Jumpgates. Sort of like Stargates, or the things in  C.J.
Cherryh's Well of Shiuan, and the rest of the series. Gates are large
and stationary, and you move from one to the next. The far end has to be
placed there by STL or other forms of FTL drive.

Yaskodray allegedly has invented things like this, AKA jump disks, sort
of like the jump disks in Niven's known space series. TL-21+

That's alll I remember offhand from FFS1

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:38:26 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Some questions...

>With THAT aggressive breeding you would start with breeding population of
>about 30
>male donors and 9970 baby factories.  After 20 years the initial breeding
>population would retire but would be replaced by the first of the new
>generation,


I would *not* want to live ona planet with;
9,970 Pregnant Women
9,970 newborn infants and only 10,000 caretakers.

On the other hand, the idea of having sex with 9,970 different women in one
year is...not terribly unappealing.

"Ok, honey, I'm off to sleep with the neighbor!"
"That's fine dear, have fun...and get some more diapers while you are out!"

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:45:51 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files

Yeah, self extracting is a PC executable, and thus PC's only (or
VirtualPC SoftWindows or some othert such emulator thing), though in
theory there should be a way of looking inside it and finding the .zip
buried in there.

My vote's for the plain .zip file, lust put a linknon your site to
Aladdin Systems (http://www.aladdinsys.com) and your users can download
the freeware Expander for Windows, which is quite a nice package, and a
killer example of exactly _why_ mac's are better, IMNSHO...it works
really well, just drag an archived file on it or a shortcut to it and it
opens it up, in it's own directory, no fuss, no muss, and it handles
ARC, ARJ, GZIP, uuencoded, Binhexed, Zip, and base64/MIME files. pretty
handy tool, since about the _only_ thing in that list I don't see is
Unix tar files, and there's a perfectly good DOS tar executable floating
around for free.

Alan M. Nuss wrote:
> 
> Those of us with Macs can unzip with either the Stuffit Expander or
> ZipIt applications.
> I have not been able to do anything with a self extracting zip file.
> As a straight zip file,
> it'll be a faster download (for those of us still stuck with 28.8
> connections).
> 
> Alan

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:55:55 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

> F-16 is a *Lockheed* product. Although
>Lockheed may not be getting much off this sale, either, as it sounds
>like these are used or surplus models (the A & B are fairly old
>variants ...)

Surplus but not used; these are F-16s that Pakistan paid for many years
ago, right before military exports to Pakistan were cut off.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 11:51:16 -0800
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Some questions...

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> >With THAT aggressive breeding you would start with breeding population of
> >about 30
> >male donors and 9970 baby factories.  After 20 years the initial breeding
> >population would retire but would be replaced by the first of the new
> >generation,
>
> I would *not* want to live ona planet with;
> 9,970 Pregnant Women
> 9,970 newborn infants and only 10,000 caretakers.
>
> On the other hand, the idea of having sex with 9,970 different women in one
> year is...not terribly unappealing.

Well, they did do a post holocost movie with that general plot.  It was NOT
pleasant for the sperm donors.  They were milked and artificially inceminated
the women. They weren't even SECOND class citizens, more like third or
fourth... The baby factories aren't much better... your child is taken away at
birth so that you stop lactating faster and thus are ready for the next
incemination.  Then half way through your pregnancy they'll discover its male
and abort and you have to do it all over again... for 20 years... and then you
become a caretaker.  Of course, about 75% of the baby factories can contribute
to the work force at any one time (they get taken out for the third trimester).

After 600 years like that, I'd hate to even visit that planet.  Even after a
hundred would be scary.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:58:12 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

>nebula can be caused by a star going nova, yes?
A supernova leaves behind an expanding cloud of gas that could be 
considered a nebula, but such structures are generally short-lived and
not very dense; the really big nebulae are the molecular clouds in which
new stars are forming.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:00:21 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

>        So, just to be sure I understand what you understand, the nebula
>would be "bright" due to excitaiton from the left over white dwarf, yes?
Supernova remnants actually have not a white dwarf but a neutron star
in their center. I'm not sure what fraction of the brightness of the
remnant is due to the neutron star and what is due to shock heating of the 
expanding shell as it pushes the local interstellar medium out of the way;
more the latter, I think.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:02:47 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

> You shut off all nuclear reaction in a star's core, result: with all
>photon pressure gone the star collapses into itself. Unless there is
>something actually _sustaining_ the nuclear damping after the fusion in
>the star dies (unlikely), you'll end up with a) a neutron star, b) a black
>hole, depending on the mass of the original star.

For a moderately massive star this might actually produce a supernova. That's
what causes supernova - the core runs out of nuclear fuel, nuclear 
reactions cease, the whole star collapses inwards, the innermost core forms
a neutron star and the outer layers sort of "bounce" off from the neutron
star with explosive force. (Possibly the energy transport isn't really the
"bounce" but neutrinoes coming out of the core, but that's a detail.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:54:11 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

In message <3665B7C3.394DF038@wave.co.nz>, pbroeder@wave.co.nz writes
>Yesterday afternoon the New Zealand government again proved that they
>are dumber than mud when they decided that despite New Zealand being a
>maratime nation almost solely dependant on sea trade for it's earnings
>and having the fourth largest territorial waters in the world we could
>get by (somehow) with a "2 Frigate Navy" (2).

I am reminded of the criticism (of the Danish navy?) during the Gulf War
what they were only sending two frigates to the Gulf, and it was pointed
out that this was half of their surface fleet.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:09:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

> For a moderately massive star this might actually produce a supernova.
> That's what causes supernova - the core runs out of nuclear fuel, nuclear 
> reactions cease, the whole star collapses inwards, the innermost core forms
> a neutron star and the outer layers sort of "bounce" off from the neutron
> star with explosive force. (Possibly the energy transport isn't really the
> "bounce" but neutrinoes coming out of the core, but that's a detail.) 

Incidentally, any guesses on the power of a nuclear damper (or accelerator)
required to generate nova-level flares (like the Darrian star-trigger)?  And
how long it would need to be in operation to generate this result?

GT had an explanation for the startrigger involving meson beams, tungsten, and
other mumbo-jumbo, but I'm ignoring that because it didn't make any sense ;).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:26:12 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Traveller's Elder Races

>Perhaps it was the Lylmik (sp?) and Remillard...  After all, they were
>around 6 million years earlier...
>
>;-)
>
>
>
>Kurt Feltenberger

I'm shure there is a joke there somewhere but I don't get it (as usual),
what were the " Lylmik (sp?) and Remillard" and what sources?


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:19:53 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Space Religeon (long)

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> I would think that anything Vilani would be based around food/ancients/their
> incompatibility with their environment...

Yes any idea what the ideology looks like?

> I would think the Aslan religion(s) would be bi-theistic (male and female
> gods), and based on honor...

This is going to sound like a clich', but I always viewed the Aslan as havingsome
sort of ancestor worship. Something along the lines of Shinto, with
everything having its own associated spirit.

> Vargr is anything goes... (though canon mentions a church...I can't remember
> it)
>
> K'kree is nicely covered in GT...
>
> Droyne...Hmm... Ancestor worship (especially grandfather)?

I always saw them as somthing of the secular humanists IMTU.

> Hiver...I don't know; maybe god as the great six armed manipulator?
>
> Zhodani... hmm...god is the great Psionisist, or the other extreme, would the
> thought police condone religion, or maybe only the "proper" one (ie the nobles
> find a safe religion for the proles while they are either non religious or
> maybe are involved in something honoring Droyne)?
>
> Lastly; as pertains to the great pro-anti religion flamewar....how about
> Atheism and/or rationalism evolving into a religion. I have seen theories that
> modern Psychology is being treated as a psuedo-religion by some shrinks (it's
> concepts becoming dogma...)

 You mean it hasn't?!?

- --
Ave et vale.
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:41:20 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Space Religion (on topic)

Michael D. Peters wrote:

> >IMTU that I am finishing out, the Ancients weren't the first space farers
> >(haven't decided if they were second yet or not).
> <snipped>
>
> You know I wonder that no-one said this before. I've been toying with the
> idea that Grandfather lied! I mean we have his word that he wiped out his
> children after getting pissed that they were ignoreing him, then build his
> pocket universe so that he could have a little privacy to do his research.
>
> What if he lied?

Now that is an idea I have played with. I always thought the answersgiven in the
secret of the ancients were way too pat.

> - What if the children were wiped out by "Someone or thing else" and
> Grandfather build his hole and pulled it in after him to hide? Might explain
> his quickness to destroy the ship that carried the humans into his PU.

That is one idea.

> - Likewise, what if some of the kids did escape, and are licking their
> wounds somewhere, waiting to find Granddaddy'shiding spot?

This is closer to what I was working on when the thread died inmy last campaign.
It was a twisted path too. It started with a
virus controlled terraforming project that uncovered a ancient
site. I was going to end it somwhere in the great rift on a STL
transport.

> - Or are waiting for their "weapons", the Big Six, to mature enough to go
> after him.
>
> - Or maybe, the Big Six are Granddaddy's defenses?
>
> - Or his weapons against "Someone or thing else"?

This was another thread that I wanted to explore.

> Hummm, who said that the Ancients lost their kick when their secret was
> revealed way back?
>
> P.S. This has been a message from Templar Free Radio Terra, fighting to
> bring freedom of speech back tothe universe. We shall continue to send these
> message until... WHAT!! Busting down the doors?!! Quick grab the tapes, get
> the pap...BLIZZART!!....

Hdrea, gjsd k esd ls.
Fnord

- --
Ave et vale.
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:49:54 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

SD Mooney wrote:

> Been there, edited that ;-)
>
> <PLUG>
>
> BITS released 101 Religions not so very long ago. This is mainly
> humanocentric but does have an Aslan religion (and possibly a Vargr and a
> Droyne one IIRC). It was carefully edited to try and make material playable
> and non-inflammatory.
>
> I can't add much more - as I was involved in it - but a large number of TML
> and TWG readers contributed, co-ordinated by Tim Collinson.
>
> </PLUG>

Aw yes, we have heard rumors of this heresy. These "BITS" people thatproclaim
they are producing "new" traveller material. Lies I tell you.
We have seen no hard proof. just some rumors from small foreign
island that is to close to France..

Cardinal Fang, bring forth the comfy chair.

> Unfortunately, I suspect someone will be offended. :-(

With out even thought.

- --
Ave et vale.
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:56:39 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network

> Todays system of micro management, hourly trading in stocks (daily
> trading exists now, I can only expect, that as the trading systems get
> more automated, there will be people who are making money trading on an
> hourly basis) simply cannot work in the OTU.
> 
> However, stocks as a method of capitalization of business are just too
> damn useful to go away; it is a cornerstone of economic development as
> we know it. The rate at which they are traded may change, but the
> concept remains the same.
> 
> --
> Bruce Johnson

I mostly agreed with your post Bruce.  However, I think that you will
have people making money on the hourly trades in the OTU.  However, it
would be on the local companies that are trading and not necessarily on
the Mega- Sector- SubSector- corporations.  There will be some of that
too though, I am sure.

I think there will be companies that are traded on some limited number
of worlds....  Would there be worlds that are "stock market" worlds? 
That that is their primary service?  I could see the major companies
being traded on such markets but not on others....  Or that there are
classes of shares...  One share of Berkshire Hathaway will grow to how
much by the time of 5600 maybe?

Greg

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1234
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, December 3 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1235



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [OT] Re: Thanksgiving
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Traveller's Elder Races
CT small auction
Re: Vailidity of the Canon Trading Model
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)
re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files
Re: Stock trading .02 worth
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller
Re: Jump-6 courier network I
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1232
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Missile Launch Rails
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Some questions...
Re: Courier route efficiency I

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 01:04:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Thanksgiving

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>Why not order BITS work from Britain?  The postage is reasonably cheap if
>you're buying a bunch, and International Money Orders can be purchased at
>any bank or post office.

I believe Bill Rutherford got a good price from Leisure Games when he
bought in bulk...

>You should also look at Signal GK (a British fanzine - professional
>writing, amateur art, xerox printing).

Sadly very erratic at the moment...

> Imagine trying to buy a
>101 book, and being told by Dom that BITS policy was not to sell overseas,
>even when you were willing to pay extra...

Just to stress that BITS policy is that we'll sell to anyone who sends us
the money, provided we don't make a loss. Not that Rob meant anything else,
but I thought I'd better stress it anyway. ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 01:18:52 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>LOL!  I believe there is another among the  . . .
>{looks left, looks right)
> . . . Unnamed.

Ok. I know... :-(

The name will be in the main print run (along with the others who were
missed out). Hang head in shame.



>Restored Canon Church of Sylea

Who are looking to establish an Inquistion to deal with the various canon
heretics who violate the true and blessed M0 way ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:25:13 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Elder Races

At 06:26 PM 12/3/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>Perhaps it was the Lylmik (sp?) and Remillard...  After all, they were
>>around 6 million years earlier...
>>
>>;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>Kurt Feltenberger
>
>I'm shure there is a joke there somewhere but I don't get it (as usual),
>what were the " Lylmik (sp?) and Remillard" and what sources?

In Julian May's Pleocene (Sp?) Exiles series she had a race of beings that
basicly founded the Concordium.  These beings were rumored to have refueled
their own star and existed as a race of almost pure mental energy.
Remillard refers to one of the main antagonists, Marc Remillard.  He was
also known as Abbadon or the Adversary.

SPOILER WARNING.....



















In the books, four of them detailing events 6 Million BC and three
detailing events late 20th and 21st centuries, a significant portion of the
known universe is psionicly active.  The Lylmik formed the "Unity" which is
similar to a psychic internet.  Marc led the Human rebels against the Unity
and almost succeded if not for the intervention of several of his family
members.  Easily the most powerful of all human operants, he and his forces
fled to the past through a one-way time gate.  When they arrived they found
that a group of humanlike alien exiles had already settled parts of Europe.
 These aliens were latent psychics.

To make a long story short, Marc and one other human made the jump to the
alien's homeworld to help guide them into full operancy.  In a way, the
devil of the abyss became a hero.

In the second series, the ones detailing the next hundred years or so, you
learn the origin of the Lylmik and the true identity of Atoning Unifex.

I highly reccomend the books.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:25:21 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: CT small auction

With the recent requests for CT material I've pushed this ahead a bit. I
have a number of items on a pgege on my website up for auction. The CT stuff
belonged to freind who is moving and wants ot get rid of them. After
(greedily, heh, heh!) filling out a number of items in my own collection,
I'm placing the rest up for auction. I'm not a pro at this just interested
in "spreading the wealth to the rest of the TML, so the rules are pretty
simple. It's a seven day auction with with the price bidder update once a
day. Other stipulations are listed on the page. All of the items are in very
good to execellent condition, almost new. The boxed games contain counters
but I have not counted them, they appear to be intact however. If your
interested drop my my page (address in sig), go to the "Fro Sale" section
and send in a bid.

Sorry if anyone sees this as a waste of bandwith. This is a one time post to
the list. All further communication on the stuff will be by private mail.

Mike Peters, Letterworks@CITnet.com
webpage:"Jump Point" http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's
sake. The great affair is to move."
Robert Louis Stevenson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:34:32 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vailidity of the Canon Trading Model

 "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com> wrote:
> These first
>examples would be the equivalent of "megacorp" status.  The next step
>down has firms such as Hyundai, Daewoo, Fiat, and Zil who are dominant
>in their home countries, but less common elsewhere.  These would be
>equivalent to sector-wide companies.  On a third level are smaller
>manufacturers who have more niche products like Lamborghini, Ferarri,
>and Zastava (makers of the Yugo).  These would be equivalent to
>subsector or planetary companies.

Ferrari is part of FIAT.
Lamborghini is part of another group (can't remember who).

BMW/(Land) Rover would be an example of a sector corp with mega aspirations.

Good analogy though.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:40:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:

>Aw yes, we have heard rumors of this heresy. These "BITS" people thatproclaim
>they are producing "new" traveller material. Lies I tell you.
>We have seen no hard proof. just some rumors from small foreign
>island that is to close to France..
>
>Cardinal Fang, bring forth the comfy chair.

Pisst! Want to see some photos? See those rumoured BITS products at:

http://www.bits.org.uk/

It shows the range of products that are out there in the CORE sectors. I
anticipate that a small freetrader may get supplies to those of you in the
wilds sometime soon. ;-)


Dom (Webmaster-General, BITS)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:24:04 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:

>What I would like to know is this:  Would it be better to post the .ZIP
>file (at approximately 230k per ship), or a self-extracting .ZIP file
>(at about 340k per ship)?  I have about 10 MB of space left on my
>GeoCities site, so I can post several ship either way.

.ZIP because Mac owners with Excel 98 can open the file then, whereas they
can't open a EXE.

And I couldn't download an EXE and extract it through the firewall at work,
whereas I can download a ZIP and extract it.

Dom (who doesn't play Traveller at work, honest)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:54:07 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> writes:
>Thank the Powers that the government
>hasn't lost its mind completely and gone out and bought a whole lot of M1s
>or equivilent.

Why not? New Zealand is so obviously tank country :-)

ObTrav: Why do worlds have offworld units in the 1200 Imperium?  Is it to
conquer their neighbours (in short wars)?  Satisfy Imperial obligations
(form of taxation or feudal service)?  Maintain prestige?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:55:22 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Preferred Format for Ship .ZIP Files

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> writes:
>What I would like to know is this:  Would it be better to post the .ZIP
>file (at approximately 230k per ship), or a self-extracting .ZIP file
>(at about 340k per ship)?  I have about 10 MB of space left on my
>GeoCities site, so I can post several ship either way.

ZIP files are relatively cross-platform. Self-extracting files are not. So
I'd vote plain ZIP.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:09:54 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Re: Stock trading .02 worth

At 12:56 PM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Todays system of micro management, hourly trading in stocks (daily
>> trading exists now, I can only expect, that as the trading systems get
>> more automated, there will be people who are making money trading on an
>> hourly basis) simply cannot work in the OTU.
>> 
>> However, stocks as a method of capitalization of business are just too
>> damn useful to go away; it is a cornerstone of economic development as
>> we know it. The rate at which they are traded may change, but the
>> concept remains the same.
>> 
>> --
>> Bruce Johnson
>
>I mostly agreed with your post Bruce.  However, I think that you will
>have people making money on the hourly trades in the OTU.  However, it
>would be on the local companies that are trading and not necessarily on
>the Mega- Sector- SubSector- corporations.  There will be some of that
>too though, I am sure.
>
>I think there will be companies that are traded on some limited number
>of worlds....  Would there be worlds that are "stock market" worlds? 
>That that is their primary service?  I could see the major companies
>being traded on such markets but not on others....  Or that there are
>classes of shares...  One share of Berkshire Hathaway will grow to how
>much by the time of 5600 maybe?
>
>Greg


I have been giving this a lot of thought, as I want to add it to my game.

what about a stock center at each sector captial and the rules of buying
and selling are that each Mega corp sends a certain percentage of stock to
each stock center. 
I.E. Astroburgers sends to Regina 1% (Lets say 300 shares, and the stock
alphanumeric for astroburger is ASB1, but each set of shares has it's
sector name attached, ASB1Regina.) of it's for sale stock and tracking
purpose and to another sector goes 1% etc etc and only that amount of stock
is available for purchase The price per share is set by the stock
commission at the time of departure by the xboat. And after it's purchased
in the sector it was sent to, it remains there until the parent corperation
pulls out by buying up all shares or the stock commission declares it no
longer viable. 
Stock could only be sold for the first 24-48 hours after the arrival of the
xboat (depending on frequence of xboats) to prevent someone learning about
a dip of increase in stock at home sector and racing off with their jump
millions boat to make a killing.
there would have to be rules on transfering title/ownership between
sectors. If it would be allowed. 

so a person that travels around alot could have stock certs that look like
this

stock		shares		current value
ASB1Regina  	12 shares	27 as of 1121
ASB1Trunsdel  200 shares	32 as of 1122
LMM2Regina 	50 shares	30.3/4 as of 1122

and in order to sell they would have to know the price of share at that
days xboat delivery.

because of the distance/time in traveller the players/owners would have
different stock values of the same stock and they would have to live with
it. They could be at trunsdel and learn their stock is worth 32 per share
but their regina stock is still worth 27 a share because that stock is
registered at regina and regina may or may not have had the update yet. So
selling stock would become a long drawn out time consumeing process.

let me know what you think. I do realize I have almost no knowledge of
stocks and am make this up as I go based on what I have heard. So bear with
me please.
thanks

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:48:09 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:03:23, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>

>The first one is that an Express Postal Service is not economically
>worthwhile, and thus does not exist in the late Third Imperium.

It would be better to say that, since a governement built Express
Postal Service (the X-boat network) already exists and meets most
the needs, it may well be that nobody want to spend the money
needed to have a 33% quicker, but otherwise redundant, network.

>Now, I have big problems with the first school of thought, because a fast
>courier costs within an order of magnitude of a Far Trader, and there are
>plenty of orginisations that can afford lots of Far Traders. News is so
>clearly such a valuable commodity that I am surprised that anyone would
>argue that it isnt worth gigacredits to be consistently the first with it.

Again, the point that someone can "afford" it shows nothing.  Weither
their is enough news that can wait a certain amount of time, but
looses significant money if it wait 33% longer, is debatable.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:56:18 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: I Saw GURPS: Traveller

Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:28:38 -0800 (PST), Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>

>I need to see / feel the stuff, first.  I'm having a hard time
>believing that it's any good.  And is it worth having if you aren't
>going to use the GURPS rule books?

The supplements (such as Behind the Claw and Aliens Vol 1.)
are useful for any game system.  BTC has very little in the
way fo game mechanics.  Aliens has only the racial packages
themselves.

GURPS Traveller has (as one would expect) a lot of GURPS
specific rules.  Things it has that are of general interest
are the description of the setting (maybe a 1/3 of the book)
and perhaps the modular ship design rules (You will need
to convert weapon stats to your own use and would need
Vehicles if you wanted to expand it).

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:06:07 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I

Thu, 03 Dec 1998 00:08:14 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>a) At least one of them, once you got down to net profit,
>>had a 5% difference.  A large corp most certainly cares if
>>their net profit changes by even 1%.
>
>  But not, seemingly, if their profits are to go up?

And that is what I haven't seen, anything that would
show that the profits would go up enough to justify
the cost.

>>b) Most of the analyses are forced to make assumptions that,
>>while "reasonable" could also be reasonably made at values
>>that are quite different.

>  OK, I just don't recall your deigning to dispute either the
>source material or the calculations.

Sorry you missed it.

>>c) "a" and "b" are irrelvant anyway because no large corp
>>is going to spend even 1% (or 0.01%) of their budget on
>>something that they don't see a return for.  So the %age
>>of a corp's budget it would take to do it is irrelevant.

>  Interesting theory. OC, the % it would take _is_ relevant
>to the likelihood of a project being undertaken, especially
>if it's likely to show a profit.

Only to the degree that you can't do something it you
can't afford it at all.  Otherwise, it says nothing
about the likelihood of the project.  Unless they
think they are going to get a return for that money,
they aren't going to be more likely to spend money on
it because it is a small portion of the budget.

If I am at a board meeting and I can't show any return on
a project, the arguement that it is only 1% (or 0.01%)
of the budget won't do me much good.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:10:57 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1232

Thu, 03 Dec 1998 03:20:55 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>However, J-5+ couriers can offer _cheaper_ service than J-4.

I've seen this alleged.  If there is a rationale for it, I missed
it.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:23:42 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

>Dragging it back to Trav, here's where those gazillions of credits the
>IN has at it's disposal can be spent without putting an SDB behind every
>asteroid throughout known space...Unlike the super-effecient rational
>naval force that everyone is postulating it to be, they dump the money
>on large showy ships unsuited to the duties they need to be put to.

The Tigress, for example - in High Guard terms this was a massively
overpriced ship, only marginally more combat effective than the 200,000 ton
battleships and arguably less combat effective than a 90,000 ton battlerider
(which is harder to hit.) Some of these are High Guard artificats, but one coulcd
imagine in general lots of political pressures in favour of big flag-showing
battleships.


Or special projects like Longbow - a dedicated tracker-only science-grade
PEMS-17 sensor array costs TCr 375, a big black budget item.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:24:36 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Missile Launch Rails

>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT).
...
>To bring this kicking and screaming back to traveller;  I've always wanted
>to mount missiles on the outside of my fighters...kind of like contemporary
>aircraft.  That also leads to mounting external missile 'pods' on just
>about any craft in the traveller inventory.  Aside from decreasing
>acceleration performance (significantly in some cases) what is wrong with
>this tactic?

  Striker had them as launch rails (mass = mass of carried issile), and you
could use them to carry SS3-designed rounds - anything that has a specified
mass, I guess, including Striker or B:8 designed probes, drone missiles, etc.

  IIRC, one JTAS had suggested Striker stats for Ramparts, and there were
missiles involved, though whether they were on the Ramparts I don't recall.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:24:41 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
...
>Dragging it back to Trav, here's where those gazillions of credits the
>IN has at it's disposal can be spent without putting an SDB behind every
>asteroid throughout known space...Unlike the super-effecient rational
>naval force that everyone is postulating it to be, they dump the money
>on large showy ships unsuited to the duties they need to be put to.

  Like the Kinunir, AHL, and Gazelle? <grumble>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:34:49 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Fast Couriers
>
>>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network III

  Comrade - please note that the quotes which followed weren't mine.
Next time you may get an all-expenses-paid cruise of the Gulag Isles :>

...
>Ditzie wants me to note (1) that the *ship* will, but if you have
>contracted with Famile Spofulam for a delivery of a packet in 23 days, and
>our ship arrives in 21 days, then the packet comes out of the box on the
>23rd day.

  That's a bit sick (mind you, I've done the same to really annoying customers)

>(1) Ditzie is much calmer these days. She is busying herself with something
>called 'FFS Compliant High Guard'. Oh yes, and rapid fire anti-personell
>fusion guns.

  Why rapid fire - haven't you people ever heard of _accuracy_? :>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:46:16 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network

Greg Smith wrote:
> 
> > Todays system of micro management, hourly trading in stocks (daily
> > trading exists now, I can only expect, that as the trading systems get
> > more automated, there will be people who are making money trading on an
> > hourly basis) simply cannot work in the OTU.
> >
> > However, stocks as a method of capitalization of business are just too
> > damn useful to go away; it is a cornerstone of economic development as
> > we know it. The rate at which they are traded may change, but the
> > concept remains the same.
> >
> > --
> > Bruce Johnson
> 
> I mostly agreed with your post Bruce.  However, I think that you will
> have people making money on the hourly trades in the OTU.  However, it
> would be on the local companies that are trading and not necessarily on
> the Mega- Sector- SubSector- corporations.  There will be some of that
> too though, I am sure.

You're absolutely right, Greg. On a single planet local stocks will sell
at any pace that technology allows. 

> I think there will be companies that are traded on some limited number
> of worlds.... 

Yeah, how do you buy, for instance, 100 shares of Tukera? Perhaps you
buy either local shares only, _or_ you buy into a mutual fund model,
where trading is done on the local level on behalf of the fund, which
may be administered on the subsector or sector level. Still it implies
an almost complete independence on the part of local fund managers. 

(Trav plot: Now what was the name of that currency trader who caused
that bank in England to fail?...;-)

While local markets may trade on any time basis their technology allows,
multi-world trading will of necessity have to take a different pace.
Perhaps stocks are traded in a central multi-world market on specific
dates, with some central date-time stamp on the orders to buy and
sell..ie: if the buy order gets to Mora by day 91 of the year, it's
executed on the first quarter trading day. All trading takes place on
that day, so stocks rise and fall at specific intervals during the year.

This places a premium on that J-6 courier service, as moving trading
orders is a natural use of high speed communications. It also makes for
opportunities for PC's...on off-X-boat worlds, they might be asked to
jump TODAY so as to get a trade order onto the xboat network by some
cut-off date.

This makes multi-world markets possible, but more and more limited as
the size (and commo lag) grows. I suspect MegaCorp capitalization, like
everything else in the Imperium is decentralized almost completely. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:50:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Some questions...

Peter Brenton <pbrenton@mit.edu> writes:

> I would *not* want to live ona planet with;
> 9,970 Pregnant Women
> 9,970 newborn infants and only 10,000 caretakers.
> 
> On the other hand, the idea of having sex with 9,970 different
> women in one year is...not terribly unappealing.

It should be.  Consider it this way:

Assume you are available for sex 16 hours a day, 365 days a year.
(This leaves 8 hrs/day to squeeze in sleep, meals, and biological
necesseties.)  This means you have sex with 28 women per day, (I'm
rounding up so none of the women will be missed) over a 16 hour
period.  That's 1 woman every 34 minutes and 29 seconds.

Now, I enjoy sex as much as the next guy (and maybe more), but you'd
have to be SUPERMAN to keep it up like that!  I foresee endless
supplies of Viagra, lubricant, and Novicane in your future. :^)

(FYI, considering that it takes human sperm about 5 days to develop
to the point of being viable for conception, you'd be performing most
of that "work" purely for the act itself.  After the first half dozen
partners, you'd be producing nothing capable of fertilizing an egg.)

Interesting problem, however. :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > I believe that "decimation" originated with the Roman legions.

    Of course it originated with the Romans! Who else would _need_
    a word that means "kill every tenth person"?  - Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:58:01 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Courier route efficiency I

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Courier route efficiency (long and probably rambling)
...
>If the courier route is run by a single ship, making each jump as fast
>as possible (say a Mora to Core "War is declared" dispatch boat),
>these time differences will tend to average out, and could probably
>be ignored. This would even be the case if speed of message from
>one end of the run to the other were most significant, as the next
>boat could leave within minutes of the previous boat arriving - again,
>the time differences would tend to average out.

  This is the model I used behind the JumpExpress courier designs (HG);
they could provide _parcel_ service from Glisten to Regina in the time
required for ten jumps plus L-Hyd replenishment and SOP drive checks, or
16 hours per HG (minimum recommended under any non-combat circumstances
is one hour, ibid). If necessary, most of these designs could carry an
in-board engineer rather than have the pilot do both, but that seems
more than a little bit over the top.

  IAC, the handling required for packages is going to be an issue for
all couriers including X-Boats; while storage density is assumed to be
high enough for our purposes IIRC it's been pointed out that information
density in commo transmissions is limited by physical constants - thus,
even the regular X-mails will require onloading of low priority bulk media.

  As previously specified, all of the figures I've been working with are
weekly courier lines with switch-overs between vessels (and vessel types)
reduced to an absolute minimum as dictated to Operations by Accounting.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1235
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, December 3 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1236



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cardboard Heroes
GT Gunship
Re: Courier route efficiency II
Re: GT Gunship
Re: AHL info
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1232
Spinal Mount sized Bays
Re: Jump-6 courier network I
re: Courier Route Efficiency
Re: Auction
re: AHL info
Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Jump-6 courier network I
Re: Traveller's Elder Races
re: AHL info
re: Courier Networks
Re: Fast Couriers
G:T or T5
Courier Networks & Imperial Business
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Stock trading .02 worth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:58:06 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

...
>  Hopefully this increases our chances of seeing the four (?) sets of 
>Traveller Cardboard Heroes again before the turn of the century?

  Does anyone recall how many there where? Imperial Marines and
Zhodani for sure, plus an adventurers-type one, IIRC. Any others?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 15:17:04 -0500
From: Christopher Pratt <valen@gatecom.com>
Subject: GT Gunship

Hello all

This is my first design for a GT starship.  I started with a
50 ton cutter and eventually made it into a gunship/honking
big fighter.  since this is my first attempt at designing a
GT ship, I not too concerned with viability or realism of
design (though those comments are welcome) I am mostly
concerned with getting my math right.  I have created the
larval form of a spreadsheet for help in constructing this
ship, If you want a copy lemme know and i'll mail it out.

on with the ship

50 Ton SL hull. DR200 with basic stealth and emissions
cloaking.
Modules
	Basic Bridge
	Engineering
	2 Hull mounted Missile racks
	4 Staterooms
	1250cf of cargo space
	15 Maneuver Drive Units
	1 Turret w/ 2 360MJ lasers and one sandcaster
Statistics:
	Emass: 205.7455
	Lmass: 218.2455
	Cost: 15.34882 MCr
	Hit points: 9750
Performance:
	Acceleration: 2.91g
	Jump: 0 (no jump drive installed)
	Air speed: 2483

NOTE: final cost includes a full load of missiles (154) and
sand canisters (200)

comments...please point out any errors I may have made and
let me know what you think


- -- 
later
christopher pratt
valen@gatecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:21:32 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Courier route efficiency II

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Courier route efficiency (long and probably rambling)
...
>So, as a bare minimum - assuming no ships out of service, and no
>ships gone a-missing - you will require seven courier ships for every
>route leading out from each mail stop. Add three ships to ensure
>reliability of service, we're up to ten. A courier can, at best, be in service
>96% of the time - the other 4% of the time it's in annual maintenance,
>but our three ship overage should be enought to handle that. 

  This starts to add up pretty quickly, so if this is a daily mail system
it's either an upgrade or complete replacement of the X-Boat system in the
coverage area. If this is J-5/6 then express couriers will not be able to
function on these routes, and will be reduced to the status of dispatch
boats at major centers, available to go off-route ASAP (at huge fees).

...
>It's possible that careful routing of couriers could allow each vessel to
>be in a class A or B starport when it needs maintenance. It is more likely
>that the best routing will place the courier where it can get maintenance
>before it truly needs it - say at 48 weeks instead of 52 weeks, or even
...

  YMMV, but in many TU's the ref may read one year as "52-weeks plus/minus".
Seeings as it's largely unclear what annual maintenance does to a Trader for 
KCr 55 (over two weeks?!) it could simply be done over the course of a year
in week or 3-4 day installments. If delaying until week 54 is neither rabidly
illegal nor suicidal then the problem may be reduced there as well.

>This kind of routing will prevent you from implementing a TMLer's 
>suggestion (Ian's?) that you place different craft on each leg, with
>exactly the jump drives for their route. It may be hard to optimize
>routing for j-3, j-4, j-5 and j-6 craft to allow them to only jump the
>routes they were made for, visit a repair port yearly, and not end up
>all parked at the far end of a mail leg. 

  This can work better if you add 24-36 hours to the ship/ship-type switch-
overs. The real killer under HG is using J-6 where you don't have to as the
ship costs an 40% extra or so. In the JumpExpress/Al Morai examples (11/30)
the J-6 ships running the Glisten-Trin-Mora runs are making four jumps per
leg and visiting three TL F worlds with Al Morai facilities in place. Using
this extra ship-type is necessary for efficiency for these links, and only
requires <36 hours added at the Mora nexus with the Type F-5's.

>So, the setup costs of any optimized mail system will equal the
>cost of setting up a mail station* on each world, plus 24 couriers** per
>world-to-world link in the system (12 each way). If you can send mail in
>six directions from Rhylanor, Rhylanor will have 72 couriers assigned
>to itself and 72 couriers assigned to jump towards Rhylanor.

  The X-Boat system may very well be established at something like this
strength, but a parcel-type courier system could get by with far fewer -
a few dozen for most of the Marches business traffic, as indicated.

>* mail station: At minimum a commo station, business office and
>access to local repair and maintenance yards. Tankers will probably
>be a necessary expense (such as the CT X-Boat tender). If you are
>underconfident about local starport facilities or defenses, you may
>have to bring your own (drastically increasing the costs).

  Many organizations will already have all this - specifically sector
or state wide lines (in the Marches, Al Morai is an excellent example).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:24:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Gunship

Christopher Pratt writes:
> 50 Ton SL hull. DR200 with basic stealth and emissions
> cloaking.
> Modules
>      Basic Bridge
>      Engineering
>      2 Hull mounted Missile racks
>      4 Staterooms
>      1250cf of cargo space
>      15 Maneuver Drive Units
>      1 Turret w/ 2 360MJ lasers and one sandcaster

Ok, there's the first problem.  Hull-mounted weapons count against your
hardpoint limit -- small craft are limited to 3 hull-mounted weapons or one
turret, but cannot have both, or a combination.  Aside from that the numbers
look ok, though I didn't do any major checking on it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:37:20 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Re: AHL info

At 08:25 PM 11/30/98 -0600, you wrote:
> William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
>
>>Could anyone with a copy of the AHL box or even just Supplement 5, tell
>
>>me if the following is in it?
>>1) How many were constructed?
>>2) How many were transferred to the IISS after they were retired from
>>Navy service?
>>
>>(actually if anyone would sell me even a photocopy of S5 it would be
>>really helpful for an adventure I'm working on right now.)
>>
>
>1)  92 were constructed, hull numbers 6326-6416, 6418 (all ships named)
>15 active as of 1107
>
>2)  5 were transfered to the Scouts
>     6336 Luray Explorer (ex-Gilded Farthing)  Exploration
>     6362 Bright Light (ex-Sparkling Observer)  Exploration
>     6385 Vermillion Stance    Exploration
>     6388 Infrequent Refuge    Dispatch
>     6406 Imperial Reaumur    Dispatch
>
>     7 converted to commericial service
>     2 transfered to the Darrian Confederation
>     2 transfered to the Vegan Autonomous District
>
>Charles
>
which ship was the one that developed AI?

I remember that game, my character got screwed, because the ship bonded
with him and he could NEVER EVER leave that ship again.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:38:04 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1232

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
...
>>However, J-5+ couriers can offer _cheaper_ service than J-4.
>
>I've seen this alleged.  If there is a rationale for it, I missed it.

  I don't suppose that you ran across the principle yourself while
doing the work to indicate that such courier services are uneconomic?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:56:26 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Spinal Mount sized Bays

	
	I had a question for the list...

	I realize that once a ship has been built, it's spinal mount cannot be
changed (or made larger; not sure about smaller).  However, what about ships
that never had a spinal mount installed when built?  You could not put one in
later...but since bays are no longer limited to just 50 and 100 tons, why
can't you put a spinal-mount sized weapon in a custom designed bay?  This
gives low-tech ships a chance of possibly being given a form of SLEP to keep
it competitive (at least somewhat) as opposed to building a whole new class of
vessels.

	Is this possible and legit, or is it simply pure rules-lawyering?

	DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:58:35 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I
...
>And that is what I haven't seen, anything that would
>show that the profits would go up enough to justify
>the cost.

  OK. Your figures indicated unprofitability? Could you share those?

...
>If I am at a board meeting and I can't show any return on
>a project, the arguement that it is only 1% (or 0.01%)
>of the budget won't do me much good.

  If the % is too high, then the project is less likely to be approved.
If it's quite low and still likely profitable, then it's at least going
to be considered. Cheap enough, and it may be discretionary for a manager
somewhere (like linking two good markets 5-6 parsecs apart with a ship
every two-three days or something; this might be a sector heads choice,
allowing for H.O. oversight.

  Correct me if I'm wrong, but at this point the basis of the profitability
discussion with you is that "you don't agree"?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:52:35 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Courier Route Efficiency

Steve Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>So, the setup costs of any optimized mail system will equal the
>cost of setting up a mail station* on each world, plus 24 couriers** per
>world-to-world link in the system (12 each way). If you can send mail in
>six directions from Rhylanor, Rhylanor will have 72 couriers assigned
>to itself and 72 couriers assigned to jump towards Rhylanor.

  The X-Boat system may very well be established at something like this
strength, but a parcel-type courier system could get by with far fewer -
a few dozen for most of the Marches business traffic, as indicated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As long as each run is designed as endpoint to endpoint, with pickup
cargos in between, that will be the case - if getting something from
Mora to Efate is the major objective, and it doesn't matter if you happen
to miss the connection with the line heading for Lunion, then you will be
33% (or even up to 100%!!) faster than the X-Boat system. Once you
start adding any complications to the route - branches or hubs - there
will be inefficiencies in the system that will hinder your effectiveness.
It doesn't matter to me how fast your courier is, if it leaves for two weeks 
right before my most important piece of cargo shows up at your 
shipping office.

Either you add more boats - in effect duplicating the effort of the X-Boat
system, just with longer legged craft - or you find your overall effectiveness
eroded, to the point where jump-4 X-Boat traffic will be almost as fast.
Some of your priority cargos will be much faster, some others will
languish in your port facilities for weeks until the next courier shows up.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:03:55 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Auction

  The auction at  http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
has some really neat stuff - not only all of 5FW, AHL, and
I:E, but also HG, TCS, and S:9 - Fighting Ships. Way cool.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:58:04 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: AHL info

Samir wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
which ship was the one that developed AI?

I remember that game, my character got screwed, because the ship bonded
with him and he could NEVER EVER leave that ship again.
>>>>>>>>>>
I believe that was the _Kinunir_, a 1250-tn battlecruiser from Adventure 1
(same name as the ship). Experimental AI in the main computer went
nuts, how nice for you that it decided to keep you instead of throw you
back...<G>

These Azhanti High Lightnings are 60,000tn frontier cruisers, I'd never
heard of any of them being built with AI...unless you're talking Virus.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 16:16:10 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Greg Smith wrote:
> >
> > > Todays system of micro management, hourly trading in stocks (daily
> > > trading exists now, I can only expect, that as the trading systems get
> > > more automated, there will be people who are making money trading on an
> > > hourly basis) simply cannot work in the OTU.
> > >
> > > However, stocks as a method of capitalization of business are just too
> > > damn useful to go away; it is a cornerstone of economic development as
> > > we know it. The rate at which they are traded may change, but the
> > > concept remains the same.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bruce Johnson
> >
> > I mostly agreed with your post Bruce.  However, I think that you will
> > have people making money on the hourly trades in the OTU.  However, it
> > would be on the local companies that are trading and not necessarily on
> > the Mega- Sector- SubSector- corporations.  There will be some of that
> > too though, I am sure.
> 
> You're absolutely right, Greg. On a single planet local stocks will sell
> at any pace that technology allows.
> 
> > I think there will be companies that are traded on some limited number
> > of worlds....
> 
> Yeah, how do you buy, for instance, 100 shares of Tukera? Perhaps you
> buy either local shares only, _or_ you buy into a mutual fund model,
> where trading is done on the local level on behalf of the fund, which
> may be administered on the subsector or sector level. Still it implies
> an almost complete independence on the part of local fund managers.
> 
> (Trav plot: Now what was the name of that currency trader who caused
> that bank in England to fail?...;-)

"Excuse me, sir.  You said you want to place a "Sell" order for 100
shares of Tukera A?  You mean Class A stock?  At Cr 1,230,000? Do you
have the shares here?  Oh, you want to sell them short?  Right." 

Lots of opportunity for graft in the mutual fund picture.  Maybe shares
trading on a certain market like another poster mentioned.  I'll have to
think about it more.
 
> While local markets may trade on any time basis their technology allows,
> multi-world trading will of necessity have to take a different pace.
> Perhaps stocks are traded in a central multi-world market on specific
> dates, with some central date-time stamp on the orders to buy and
> sell..ie: if the buy order gets to Mora by day 91 of the year, it's
> executed on the first quarter trading day. All trading takes place on
> that day, so stocks rise and fall at specific intervals during the year.

Good idea on this.  Trades take place on certain dates, much like
options expiring currently.  So your shares gain or lose value
"officially" based on quarterly executions of buy and sell orders.  But
this opens up a secondary market of trading the stock that you hold
(either in "street name" or actual certificates) for whatever price you
can get locally.  And then the shares may be registered to the new owner
by the ISEC.  

> This places a premium on that J-6 courier service, as moving trading
> orders is a natural use of high speed communications. It also makes for
> opportunities for PC's...on off-X-boat worlds, they might be asked to
> jump TODAY so as to get a trade order onto the xboat network by some
> cut-off date.

Or to get a cancellation order to a specific High Jump courier *after*
the official x-boat has left in order to counteract the sell order you
just sent 4 days ago (since the TNS has just reported that
breakthrough....)

Kind of like "Trading Places" where they need to get the Orange
Concentrate Futures report before its public....

> This makes multi-world markets possible, but more and more limited as
> the size (and commo lag) grows. I suspect MegaCorp capitalization, like
> everything else in the Imperium is decentralized almost completely.

Right.  And in operations of the MegaCorps, one of the articles
mentioned that they often are working at cross purposes to other
divisions within the same corporation...

All kinds of possibilities!

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:20:32 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

>  Correct me if I'm wrong, but at this point the basis of the profitability
>discussion with you is that "you don't agree"?

To boil it down. No side of this argument have come up with numbers that
show profit or loss. You, Hanke and Ian claim that profitt is likely (without
much numbers to support you :-). David (and I) claim that there loss is likely
(without much numbers to support us). Its a stalemate that rests soley on the 
IMTU argument. 

>        Steven Hudson

So could we please stop this tread since it is on the verge of coming to
virtual blows. Our views of the Traveller universe is simply to different
and therefor not giving us a common platform to discuss on.


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:36:49 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Elder Races

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, December 03, 1998 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Traveller's Elder Races



On more note on the Pleostene (sp?) Exile series. The basis of the books
(apart from the obvious sci-fi/space opera) is Celtic mythology. I agree a
highly absorbing and entertaining read.

Mike Peters, Letterworks@CITnet.com
webpage:"Jump Point" http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's
sake. The great affair is to move."
Robert Louis Stevenson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:28:12 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: re: AHL info

At 03:58 PM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Samir wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>which ship was the one that developed AI?
>
>I remember that game, my character got screwed, because the ship bonded
>with him and he could NEVER EVER leave that ship again.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>I believe that was the _Kinunir_, a 1250-tn battlecruiser from Adventure 1
>(same name as the ship). Experimental AI in the main computer went
>nuts, how nice for you that it decided to keep you instead of throw you
>back...<G>

lets see... keep the 'pet' or throw it back, 
since that was the loss of my first traveller character I was kinda miffed.
I tried to play him in other traveller games but everyone said "are you
kidding?!"

>
>These Azhanti High Lightnings are 60,000tn frontier cruisers, I'd never
>heard of any of them being built with AI...unless you're talking Virus.
>
never played with the traveller virus, although some players in my
mechwarrior game read about the virus fleets and decided to try to slip it
into my game as a means to override enemie ships, unfortunalty for them I
too had read about the virus stuff and worked it into my campiegn as we
ended the game they were desperatly trying to recover the stolen harddrive
that contained stage three of the virus program before it could be entered
into the Comstar mainframe..(They knew that the inner sphere would be
defenseless if the virus was transmitted, the clans were due to invade in
less then a year.) it was fun for me and took the game in a compleatly new
direction. (hope you know what I am talking about sorry about the digression)

shoot that was almost 20 years ago that I played adventure one, I am lucky
to have remembered that., it was only 1250 ton? I thought it was
bigger...ofcourse when all you got is a 200ton scout everything is aLOT
bigger .  oh well
thanks for the info.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:33:18 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Courier Networks

Just to summarize what I was getting at in my previous posts:

IMO, the benefit of a fully-realized X-Boat system will be it's reliability.
If you go to an IISS communications office with a message,
you know that it will leave within time X (day, two days, every Thursday,
whatever) and that they will get it to point Y by time Z almost every time
you try. A smaller system - like the express mail couriers we've been 
mentioning - will end up trading speed for reliability or availablity in most
cases, unless they get as many ships as the X-Boats use.

Yes, it only takes a jump-5 courier two jumps to make the Mora/Rhylanor
run. You've just dispatched it with the quarterly reports, and just as it
vanishes into jump space your assistant hands you a report of new
Naval contracts. Now you get to sit on this time-sensitive data until
your courier returns four weeks from now - or until it's sister ship, 
running the opposite way, returns two weeks hence.

If you have one courier making the run, put the data in an X-Boat
message right now - the four week wait for your courier to get back,
plus the two week transit will be slower than the jump-4 X-boat network.
(I figure j-4 X-Boats can follow their way stations and make Mora/Rhylanor
in five weeks, though it would take longer if no boats were doing
J-4 waystation to waystation when possible - some links on the route
are only j-1 apart.)

If you have two couriers on the route, your KCr-ish investment in a
private J-5 run might save you a week - if neither of your couriers is
nursing a busted Jump Gizmo at the halfway point. The X-Boats have
enough ships not to worry about that, either.

So, best case your private courier run saves you three weeks - a lifetime
for time-sensitive business data. Worst case, your data never arrives
and it takes you six months to find out for sure. You only get the "best 
case" if you're keeping one of these ships in reserve for that special 
message. How does your traffic travel if you don't want to send away your 
courier just yet? By X-Boat...<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:48:05 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:13:34, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>>If the ship is going to get there faster for the better
>>>paying customers, then it will get there faster for
>>>everyone.

>Ditzie wants me to note (1) that the *ship* will, but if you have
>contracted with Famile Spofulam for a delivery of a packet in 23 days, and
>our ship arrives in 21 days, then the packet comes out of the box on the
>23rd day.

These kinds of policy are hard to maintain.  They face a lot of
customer resistance.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:42:10 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: G:T or T5

Which will be the best system ? G:T is out now, it has a proven track
record, in that it is based on Gurps (obviously) it, is produced by a large
company that has withstood all sorts of problems (including the IRS). It
also seems to be gaining a lot of support, including a growing number of
fans on this list. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with Gurps.
OTOH, T5 is based on the old versions of Traveller (probably much improved
through the input of this list) with which I am familiar, periodically
suffers from publication problems and has displayed a nasty tendency to go
belly-up. (I am not having a go at anyone here). In addition to this I can
spend my Christmas dollars on a product that is on the shelves now or wait
indefinitely for T5. Despite this, my preference is to wait for T5, but how
long ? Last I heard was it was to be released prior to Christmas (only 20
shopping days to go....) Am I wasting time and delaying the inevitable ? Or
is T5 nearly here ?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:11:09 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Courier Networks & Imperial Business

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

>So, best case your private courier run saves you three weeks - a lifetime
>for time-sensitive business data. Worst case, your data never arrives
>and it takes you six months to find out for sure. You only get the "best 
>case" if you're keeping one of these ships in reserve for that special 
>message. How does your traffic travel if you don't want to send away your 
>courier just yet? By X-Boat...<G>

But with the timelags we are talking about here, there is no way to verify the
info without loosing the advantage you had. So your left with acting on
uncertain information that on top of this might not even be true when it
arraives, even if it was true when it was sent. 

This indicate to me that a very small portion of info will be useful for
this type of setup. At least not enough to justify a hole network of
couriers. I'm not even convienced that the X-boat network is a viable
and profitabel endevour. 

>Walt Smith

And I'm still tending towards my view that stock markets will not be
a very good way of doing business in the future. My view is that it
will be more family run businesses, were the ownership is handed down
from father/mother to son/daughter.

This might be because I don't know enough about the stock market and its
advanteges. What is so benfical about it? 


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:14:33 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

At 09:49 03.12.98 -0800, you wrote:

>Aw yes, we have heard rumors of this heresy. These "BITS" people thatproclaim
>they are producing "new" traveller material. Lies I tell you.
>We have seen no hard proof. just some rumors from small foreign
>island that is to close to France..
Ah-Ha, but there is PROOF!!!!
I happen to own some of these delightful blighters and i do not live on
said island
(although i still live close to France ;-()  
Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 17:17:38 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Stock trading .02 worth

Samir wrote:
> 
> I have been giving this a lot of thought, as I want to add it to my game.
> 
> what about a stock center at each sector captial and the rules of buying
> and selling are that each Mega corp sends a certain percentage of stock to
> each stock center.

This might work, but I don't think it very likely.  The vast majority of
stock owners will not be "Travellers" anyway, though I'd bet a high
proportion of Travellers would be stock holders.  And then we are only
talking about a few MegaCorps anyway (15-20 all told).  I think MegaCorp
stock would be thinly traded, very expensive, inherited.  It is mostly
held by nobles and holding companies IIRC.  Most shares traded on a
specific world would be world specific shares, IMO.  There would
probably be rules about what can be traded on what market.  But that
doesn't limit secondary markets for securities.

> I.E. Astroburgers sends to Regina 1% (Lets say 300 shares, and the stock
> alphanumeric for astroburger is ASB1, but each set of shares has it's
> sector name attached, ASB1Regina.) of it's for sale stock and tracking
> purpose and to another sector goes 1% etc etc and only that amount of stock
> is available for purchase The price per share is set by the stock
> commission at the time of departure by the xboat. And after it's purchased
> in the sector it was sent to, it remains there until the parent corperation
> pulls out by buying up all shares or the stock commission declares it no
> longer viable.

I think SubSector and Sector companies might have a system like this, or
the one Bruce mentioned having trading on a Quarterly [maybe even
monthly or weekly] basis.  Tying something to the arrival of xboats I
don't think would be too workable as the x-boat may never show, or may
be delayed...  But it could be interesting to have the exchanges execute
all orders on a certain date.  I could see a fund manager having a fast
ship standing by J-6 away in order to take any "unknown" late breaking
news a J-6 in to beat the market close and make the killing.  Would this
happen often?  No, but only once might make the expense justifiable.

> Stock could only be sold for the first 24-48 hours after the arrival of the
> xboat (depending on frequence of xboats) to prevent someone learning about
> a dip of increase in stock at home sector and racing off with their jump
> millions boat to make a killing.
> there would have to be rules on transfering title/ownership between
> sectors. If it would be allowed.

Ah, but there is money to be made by having information or selling it
beyond where the official news has reached.  Time is money, even moreso
in a timelag environment.
 
> so a person that travels around alot could have stock certs that look like

[snip]

> So selling stock would become a long drawn out time consumeing process.

Not a good idea from my perspective as a shareholder, but certainly
doable IYTU.  Then again, it could work this way in the primary market,
but there would be a secondary market for those "out of sector" shares,
particularly if you were heading that way.  You might be able to
purchase stocks cheaper here because it would cost a lot to take them
there to trade them, but then, if you are going that way, who cares?

I guess you would really have to have a buy and hold strategy, wouldn't
you?

The Count

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1236
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, December 3 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1237



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1232
Re: G:T or T5
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: AHL info
Re: Astrogaphy Question
GT - Xboat Tender
Missile Warfare Relevancy
Re: FF&S Alternate Techs?
Planets in Binary Star Systems
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Missile Warfare Relevancy
Re: Survey Speeds
RE: Stock trading .02 worth
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:43:26 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1232

>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:38:04 -0800
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>...
>>>However, J-5+ couriers can offer _cheaper_ service than J-4.
>>
>>I've seen this alleged.  If there is a rationale for it, I missed it.
>
>  I don't suppose that you ran across the principle yourself while
>doing the work to indicate that such courier services are uneconomic?

Well, if someone else alleges something, it is up to them to
support it.  Also, I have never claimed that they were uneconomic.
I claimed that the existance of a jump-6 X-boat like network
is hardly automatic based on the setting.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:00:50 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: G:T or T5

Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:42:10 +1000, "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>

>Which will be the best system ?

There really is not answer to this.  I prefer GURPS but athat
has to do with perferences and play styles (I don't like
the variable number of dice mechanics).  Both are perfectly
usuable sets of mechanics (assuming T5 is pretty much like
it is expected to be).

Then there is the question of the setting.  If you like the
CT/non-rebellion/non-Virus setting vs looking at whatever
setting T5 decides to use.  (though, to at least some
degree there is not reason you can mix and match).

>Last I heard was it was to be released prior to Christmas (only 20
>shopping days to go....)

I thought it was at least a year off, but I'm not sure.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 01:23:53 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:

> 
> Possibly.  This would never hapen naturally, but then you're not talking
> about a natural occurrence either.  If the stellar core were somehow left
> cold, dark, and slow-rotating, then more than likely there wouldn't be
> anything to illuminate the nebulosity except nearby stars.

  Yup, possible, but you would need a reaction that actually supports the
inner region in place of the now absent photon pressure. Otherwise the
core most certainly collapses. (What such a mechanism would be I cannot
fathom, but hey we're talking TL-20+ sutt here, right.)
 Thinking further I realise that with smaller stars this might just result
in nuclear fusion restarting after the star has sunk some (and blown its
outer region to space). With more massive stars, possibly even haevier
main sequence ones, the result would be a neutron star or a blck hole as I
stated earlier. Don't know about actual threshold masses as I don't have
my stellar dynamics lecture notes handy (and more experinced astronomers 
around here can probably do the math faster anyway). 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:35:00 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

In a message dated 12/3/98 11:26:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu writes:

<< The Tigress, for example - in High Guard terms this was a massively
 overpriced ship, only marginally more combat effective than the 200,000 ton
 battleships and arguably less combat effective than a 90,000 ton battlerider
 (which is harder to hit.) Some of these are High Guard artificats, but one
coulcd
 imagine in general lots of political pressures in favour of big flag-showing
 battleships. >>


In HG, 300 ktons is optimal size (no extra crit hits from spinals...)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:38:09 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: AHL info

In a message dated 12/3/98 12:41:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, samir@chisp.net
writes:

<< which ship was the one that developed AI? >>

Are you sure your not mixing this up with adv#1 Kinunir?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 01:46:16 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> 
> >        So, just to be sure I understand what you understand, the nebula
> >would be "bright" due to excitaiton from the left over white dwarf, yes?

> Supernova remnants actually have not a white dwarf but a neutron star
> in their center. I'm not sure what fraction of the brightness of the
> remnant is due to the neutron star and what is due to shock heating of the 
> expanding shell as it pushes the local interstellar medium out of the way;
> more the latter, I think.
> 

  As far as I could tell from the SN1987A results the shock heating
radiation would mostly seem to be in radio and X-ray regions. The visible
light glow is mostly due to excitation by the central superdense object,
methinks. (The existence of a neutron star has apparently been confirmed
in the case of SN1987A.)

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:52:16 -1000
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT - Xboat Tender

 1000ton Xboat Tender                        Tech Level 10

 Specifications:
 1000ton Unstreamlined hull, (Heavy Compartmentalisation), Sealed
 No Stealth                                  100DR, PD 4
 No Emissions Cloaking                       +10 size mod
 1 Unhardened Basic Bridge                   145.898 MCr, 116.718 MCr
(20% discount)
 1 Engineering Units                         67500 HP
 2 Utility Units                             EMass 1283.65 tons
 44 Maneuver Units                           LMass 1583.65 tons
 20 Powered Jump Units                       EMass 763.65 tons (less
fuel)
 0 Unpowered Jump Units                      LMass 1063.65 tons (less
fuel)
 400 Jump Fuel Units (100 needed for jump 1, 300 spare)
 0 Fuel Processor Units
 15 Staterooms, (15 Crew, 0 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage)
 1 Low Berth Units (4 capacity, 0 Low Passage)
 0 Passenger Units (0 passengers)
 0 Sickbays
 0 Labs
 0 Nuclear Damper (0 miles)
 0 Meson Screen
 60 Cargo
 0 Power Plant Units (0 MW output, 0 MW excess)
 0 Capacitor Units (Holds 0 MWH)
 0 Unpowered ContraGrav Units (0 tons CG lift)

 Performance:
 Jump 1
 Air Speed  n/a
 Acceleration - 1.37G Empty, 1.11G Loaded, 
                2.3G Empty (less Fuel), 1.65G Loaded (less Fuel)

 Weaponry:
 10 external turret hardpoints
 0 bay mounts
 0 internal turret hardpoints
 0 spaces for fixed weapons

 Carried Craft:
 1 x 200 tons capacity Space Dock

 Crew:
 0 x Command       1 x Engineering  0 x Troops
 1 x Helm          0 x Gunnery      0 x Science/Lab
 1 x Navigation    0 x Stewards     0 x Flight
 2 x Commo/Sensor  0 x Medical
 0 x Screens       0 x Computer     Total Crew = 5



- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:14:56 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Missile Warfare Relevancy

At 10:29 AM 03/12/98, you wrote:
>
>>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>>Subject: Re: Megacorps
>>
>>        Also, I would guess that GURPS allows for, or can be *bent* to allow
>>for to custom-made one-shot-ship-wreckers.  I don't know for sure, as I
>>don't play the system.
>
>G:T missiles have the same problem most other missiles have - any missile
>hit destroys any other missile.
>
>Thus, expensive ship-wreckers get hit by very small, very cheap,
>point-defense missiles.
>
        Hi, Ian!
        Yeah, good point, but the whole Traveller combat system is based on
onion-peeling odds.  You build a PAWs, I add armor.  You build nuclear
weapons, I build Dampers.  You build meson guns, I build meson screens.  You
build K-Kill weapons, I build repulsors.  You use lasers & energy, I deploy
sand and armor.
        So, based on that logic, we should never wind up fighting, because
there is no point in putting weapons on our ships, because the defenses we
mount are cheaper than the cost of the weapons.  Now, I admit I am be
facitous (sp) but you see what I mean.
        Also, keep in mind, that it is an economics issue...  if you have
"x" batteries of defenses, I need "x+1/odds of hitting" to overwhelm your
defenses and frag it.  The bottom line is after I have fired my "n" missiles
at you and actually immolated your ship, is that cheaper than what it cost
you to buy your ship?  If yes, I win.  If no, you win.
        I'll spare you the repost, but even with 100Mcr missiles, I think I
illustrated that someone could kill a dreadnuaght cheaper than it could be
built.  That is the underlying issue of missile warfare in the
RealWorld(tm), is that its not how many that get stopped its the one that
doesn't that is cheaper than the asset it was aimed at.
        However, this does monsterously shift the balance of the game from
"Ironclads in Space" to "Carrier War 1999".  It also means that star-systems
can clobber at will *almost* anything within 3 light-seconds of the main
world using silo-launched weapons...  Sort of like in the Spanish Main where
a ship vs a fort was a non-guess outcome.
        It depends, I guess on your POV of warfare economics and how much
you dislike "straying" from canon.  IYTU YMMV =).
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:15:56 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: FF&S Alternate Techs?

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Jason Kemp wrote:
> > 
> > Please forgive me for being uninformed, but I discovered the T4 books
> > only recently, and I don't have a copy of FF&S, which lists the
> > alternate FLT technologies, etc, that I've heard occasionally
> > referenced here on the list.
> > 
> > Could someone help an Old Traveller out, and give me a brief synopsis
> > of these alternate technologies, and at what TL are they available?
> 
> FTL drives limited to gates, pretty much. 
> 
> Stationary Jumpgates. Sort of like Stargates, or the things in  C.J.
> Cherryh's Well of Shiuan, and the rest of the series. Gates are large
> and stationary, and you move from one to the next. The far end has to be
> placed there by STL or other forms of FTL drive.
> 
> Yaskodray allegedly has invented things like this, AKA jump disks, sort
> of like the jump disks in Niven's known space series. TL-21+
> 
> That's alll I remember offhand from FFS1

  You seem to have forgotten stutterwarp (as in 2300AD) and subpace drive.

 Stutterwarp: This functions by tunneling the ship forward a few hundred
meters at a time in very rapid succession (hundreds of times a second)
resulting in apparent FTL speeds.
 Suggested statistics from FF&S1 are volume=2+(5 x SQR(driveMW)),
price=volumex0.3 (Mcr), speed(LY/day)=Tlm x (MW/10D)^1/3,  D=ship
displacement, Tlm=driveTL+4. 2300AD director's guide has more info on
stutterwarp.

  Subspace drive: This works by transporting the ship to an alternate
dimension where distaces are much shorter, and continually propelling it
forward.(Subspace appears to be a resisting medium.) If the drive fails,
you either a) reappear in N-space in a corresponding location, or b)
diappear forever (take your pick). This is sorta like the drives in B5.
(Could also be thought of as a supertech refinement of jump drive. IMTU
the primordials used subspace drives to zog off fom the milky way galaxy
to parts unknown...)
 Rough suggestions for stats are V(pc/hr)= ((MW/D) x eff factor) x 0.1,
efficiency factor varies from 0.6 at TL-9 to 1.1 at TL-20+, volume varies
from MW x 0.5 to MW x 0.04 TL-9 to TL-20+, rpice is vol x 0.25 (Mcr).

 As you can see, stats are given right from TL-9, but the actual TL might
be anything if you decide to use these at all, since this is _alternative_
tech.

 There is also mention of the ever lovable Tachyon band FTL communicators
in FF&S1, and IIRC the Challenge aricle about Project Farstar has some
vague rumours about alien ships using something called a tachyon drive.  


- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:14:27 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Planets in Binary Star Systems

I have a friend that sends me NASA news releases:

"European Astronomers Discover Nearby Extrasolar Planet
"A team of European astronomers, using a new telescope dedicated to 
extrasolar planet searches, has discovered a planet orbiting a nearby 
double star system, the European Southern Observatory (ESO) announced 
Tuesday, November 24.
"The planet was discovered around Gliese 86, a star system 35 light-years 
from the Earth.  The planet orbits in a nearly-circular orbit about 0.11 
astronomical units (16.5 million km, 10.2 million miles) from the star. 
 Astronomers estimate the planet's mass to be at least 4.9 times that of 
Jupiter, our solar system's heaviest planet.  The planet's surface 
temperature would be about 380 degrees C (715 degrees F).
"The main star is about 80% as massive and 40% as bright as the Sun. 
 Previous observations of Gliese 86 show that it is a binary star, with an 
unseen companion inferred to exist by spectroscopic analysis at least 10 AU

away.  The discovery of a planet in a binary system like Gliese 86 may 
provide new data on the stability of planets in such star systems.
"The new extrasolar planet is the second-closest to our solar system.  In 
June astronomers Geoffrey Marcy and Paul Butler announced the discovery of 
a star around Gliese 876, only 15 light-years from the Earth.
"The discovery was made by a team of Swiss astronomers that includes Michel

Mayor and Didier Queloz, who discovered the first extrasolar planet around 
a Sun-like star in October 1995, when they found a planet orbiting 51 
Pegasi.
"The astronomers used a new telescope, the 1.2-meter (47-inch) Leonhard 
Euler telescope, located at the European Southern Observatory in La Silla, 
Chile. The telescope, along with a high-resolution spectrograph, will be 
used primarily to search for extrasolar planets."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:25:58 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Incidentally, any guesses on the power of a nuclear damper (or accelerator)
> required to generate nova-level flares (like the Darrian star-trigger)?  And
> how long it would need to be in operation to generate this result?
> 
> GT had an explanation for the startrigger involving meson beams, tungsten, and
> other mumbo-jumbo, but I'm ignoring that because it didn't make any sense ;).
> 
 AFAIK the rate or type of nuclear factions has nothing to do with flaring
or even superflaring. (Let's get one thing straight, the Darrian sun did
_not_ go nova, not even close...I mean Daryen still has a biosphere,
right?)
  From what I can remember from my solar system physics course, the
flaring is more connected with the immensely complex magnetic phenomena in
a star's outer region, so the star trigger could involve some nifty (not
to mention massive) magnetic/gravisonic manipulation. Ill dig up the
lecture notes when I get home, and see if I can whip up some nice sounding
pseudoscience here. 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:43:36 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Missile Warfare Relevancy

One area I toyed with for a campaign I ran during the IW years was using
some sort of bus vehicle to carry a large number of shorter ranged, higher
acceleration payload missiles, similar to the MIRV ICBMs.   It made the bus
vehicles larger, up to several tons displacement, but when it got close to
the point defense range, it dumped a dozen or more small missiles on
target.  The bus vehicle continued on, slightly behind the wave of smaller
missiles and also contained a warhead.

I figured the Terrans would adopt a weapon system similar to what they had
been threatening each other with for years.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:55:57 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Survey Speeds

At 09:50 PM 03/12/98, you wrote:
>Well, most of this depends on how well-surveyed a system has to be before
>you can jump out of it again.
>
>If all you need is fuel, a working jump drive, and a computer running
>Generate, then you could happily do 52 parsecs along a main (200 dton
>jump-1 ship, 2 spare j-drives, spare power plant, m-drives, computers,
>extra fuel tankage - when you need maintainence, just switch to the
>backups. Should be good for a 3 year voyage).

        Hmmm.  There's a smart idea I hadn't thought of....  And I think I
know exactly which hull I'll use it in.  Thanks, Ian.  Brilliant as always.

>If you need to spend 6 months exhaustivly tracking every planetary body and
>rogue comet, before ships can jump out of a system, then things are going
>to be a bit slower.

        So, really the answer is "however-many-you-want" =).  Ok.  So, I'll
probably go with a mid-range value of 2d weeks per system, modified by any
astrographical features.  Thanks.

>Of course, a state may now *want* to explore too much, for fear of finding
>someone bigger.

        Which is actually the case IMTU...  

>You may also have 'rogue' free traders expanding Known Space without
>government knowledge or permission (this was one of the things that caused
>technology to leak out of the Ziru Sirkaa, possibly to the Terrans).

        This is what is happening in the last 1/2 history IMTU....  "Beyond
Frontier" region which ought not to be settled, but is in some places.

>If you are interested in this sort of stuff, you should really get hold of
>T4's Pocket Empires. It'll give you a lot to think about.
>

        I am just trying to knit together some reasonable premises for the
background history of my TNEC game, such as the "why" behind the layout of
my starmap.  Thanks for the suggestions!
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:45:54 -0600
From: Dave Seagraves <daveseag@io.com>
Subject: RE: Stock trading .02 worth

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE1EED.647F4F60
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

   I just joined the TML.  Thought I'd insert my own Cr0.02 here.
   The major problem that's been mentioned is preventing one individual =
from taking advantage of the difference in stock prices between one =
world and another.  So to prevent this the Imperium would have rules . . =
.

Rules for Stock Trading
   Each corporation's stock is only traded on one stock exchange (like =
NASDAQ) per system.  However, market forces are only allowed to change =
the stock's price in only one market (usually where the corporation's =
headquarters is located).  On all other worlds the local market sets the =
price of a stock based on its last word from the "home" market of that =
stock.  For example: Sternmetal's (symbol: STM) corporate headquarters =
is on . . .  let's say Efate (Spinward Marches/Regina), so this is where =
the stock is normally traded.  However Sternmetal also does business on =
Roup (one jump away) and its stock is traded there as well.  The price =
of STM is set by normal market forces in the Efate stock exchange, and =
can change minute by minute.  The price of STM on Roup only changes =
every time an X-Boat comes in and transmits the latest Efate price to =
the Roup stock exchange.  The price of STM remains unchanged until the =
next X-Boat from Efate updates the price again.
   Individuals and entities can still make private stock trades outside =
of a stock exchange.  The value of trades done over time should be no =
more than the minimum cost it would take to travel from wherever the =
transaction occurs to the home market's system.  A jump-4 ship (such as =
an X-Boat) could get from Efate to Roup in one jump.  If it costs that =
ship Cr1000 per jump then trades should be no larger than Cr1000 per =
week per person.

   Any holes in these rules?  Could someone still abuse this and make a =
killing?

Dave Seagraves
Seagraves Computers   Austin, TX   1 (512) 255-2760   daveseag@io.com
"Doctor McCoy, if you say that one more time I will personally feed you =
to a doomsday device." -- Spock



This might work, but I don't think it very likely.  The vast majority of
stock owners will not be "Travellers" anyway, though I'd bet a high
proportion of Travellers would be stock holders.  And then we are only
talking about a few MegaCorps anyway (15-20 all told).  I think MegaCorp
stock would be thinly traded, very expensive, inherited.  It is mostly
held by nobles and holding companies IIRC.  Most shares traded on a
specific world would be world specific shares, IMO.  There would
probably be rules about what can be traded on what market.  But that
doesn't limit secondary markets for securities.

> I.E. Astroburgers sends to Regina 1% (Lets say 300 shares, and the =
stock
> alphanumeric for astroburger is ASB1, but each set of shares has it's
> sector name attached, ASB1Regina.) of it's for sale stock and tracking
> purpose and to another sector goes 1% etc etc and only that amount of =
stock
> is available for purchase The price per share is set by the stock
> commission at the time of departure by the xboat. And after it's =
purchased
> in the sector it was sent to, it remains there until the parent =
corperation
> pulls out by buying up all shares or the stock commission declares it =
no
> longer viable.

I think SubSector and Sector companies might have a system like this, or
the one Bruce mentioned having trading on a Quarterly [maybe even
monthly or weekly] basis.  Tying something to the arrival of xboats I
don't think would be too workable as the x-boat may never show, or may
be delayed...  But it could be interesting to have the exchanges execute
all orders on a certain date.  I could see a fund manager having a fast
ship standing by J-6 away in order to take any "unknown" late breaking
news a J-6 in to beat the market close and make the killing.  Would this
happen often?  No, but only once might make the expense justifiable.

> Stock could only be sold for the first 24-48 hours after the arrival =
of the
> xboat (depending on frequence of xboats) to prevent someone learning =
about
> a dip of increase in stock at home sector and racing off with their =
jump
> millions boat to make a killing.
> there would have to be rules on transfering title/ownership between
> sectors. If it would be allowed.

Ah, but there is money to be made by having information or selling it
beyond where the official news has reached.  Time is money, even moreso
in a timelag environment.
=20
> so a person that travels around alot could have stock certs that look =
like

[snip]

> So selling stock would become a long drawn out time consumeing =
process.

Not a good idea from my perspective as a shareholder, but certainly
doable IYTU.  Then again, it could work this way in the primary market,
but there would be a secondary market for those "out of sector" shares,
particularly if you were heading that way.  You might be able to
purchase stocks cheaper here because it would cost a lot to take them
there to trade them, but then, if you are going that way, who cares?

I guess you would really have to have a buy and hold strategy, wouldn't
you?

The Count

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE1EED.647F4F60
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE1EED.647F4F60--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:20:59 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

SD Mooney wrote:

> steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>
> >LOL!  I believe there is another among the  . . .
> >{looks left, looks right)
> > . . . Unnamed.
>
> Ok. I know... :-(
>
> The name will be in the main print run (along with the others who were
> missed out). Hang head in shame.
>
> >Restored Canon Church of Sylea
>
> Who are looking to establish an Inquistion to deal with the various canon
> heretics who violate the true and blessed M0 way ;-)

Thankfully, the warrior-monk Ricardos, with the support of the Imperial
Church of Sylea, have already devised a cunning plan to deal with the
upstart "Restorers," because they foresaw that such an event would come

- - Brother Claw, please bring me the  . . . Cunning Plan.

- - But Bishop Fop, I thought you had the  . . . Cunning Plan.

Bloo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1237
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, December 4 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1238



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Missile Warfare Relevancy
Re: Missile Warfare Relevancy
Re: Gazelle variant (HG)
Re: Cardboard Heroes
missile balance
Re: Astrogaphy Question
re: Courier Route Efficiency
Re: Jump-6 courier network I
re: Courier Networks
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Smuggling
Re: Smuggling
Re: GT Ship - IN Fleet Courier

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 20:44:08 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Missile Warfare Relevancy

In a message dated 12/3/98 4:12:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

<<  You build meson guns, I build meson screens.  You
 build K-Kill weapons, >>

Yeah but in HG (G-D I'm an old fart...). a Meson T has a 5 or better on 2D6 of
penetrating a Meson 9, so It's still a potent weapon....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 20:46:19 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Missile Warfare Relevancy

In a message dated 12/3/98 4:42:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, kurt@blazenet.net
writes:

<< ome sort of bus vehicle to carry a large number of shorter ranged, higher
 acceleration payload missiles, similar to the MIRV ICBMs.    >>

I like this; though if you substitute a pilot for the bus vehicle warhead, you
have a fighter (sort of....)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:03:55 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gazelle variant (HG)

In a message dated 11/30/98 11:06:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca writes:

<<  The following is presented for several reasons, not the least being
 that the current Gazelle stats are dubious at best (too many hardpoints,
 questionable performance). The combat ineffectiveness is mission based,
 but the TL E basis is clearly obsolete and unlikely to be produced in
 future. >>

Good ships! They're better than the CT patrol cruiser too! The only thing I
would change if I could, would be to put a better computer than a model 5fib
or model 6; though I bet the design is too tight as is...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:11:34 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@fastlane.net>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

At 12:58 PM 12/3/1998 -0800, you wrote:
>...
>>  Hopefully this increases our chances of seeing the four (?) sets of 
>>Traveller Cardboard Heroes again before the turn of the century?
>
>  Does anyone recall how many there where? Imperial Marines and
>Zhodani for sure, plus an adventurers-type one, IIRC. Any others?

I pulled out my copies of them and I have:
Set 1: Soldiers of Fortune
Set 2: Imperial Marines
Set 3: Zhodani

If there were any more sets, I didn't get them and don't know of them.

Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:13:09 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: missile balance

>        I'll spare you the repost, but even with 100Mcr missiles, I think I
>illustrated that someone could kill a dreadnuaght cheaper than it could be
>built.  That is the underlying issue of missile warfare in the

Only if the dreadnaught isn't optimized for missile defence. If a 
MCr 1 0.1 ton missile can hit and kill your MCr 100 10-ton missile
every time, the dreadnaught can easily win by allocating a small 
fraction of its mass to defence.

And, in G:T, laser point defence against impact-type (including
direct nuclear) missiles is so good that small dedicated point
defence laser turrets can eat many times their weight in incoming
missiles, further tipping the balance. Basically, if ship-killing
nuclear or KKMs threaten to become common, ships should have dedicated
rapid-fire point defence lasers that will tip the balance back.
(Real-world analysis indicates that any laser is pretty much guaranteed
to hit a missile within a few thousand km with every shot, and G:T
or FFS lasers can have rates of fire of a pulse per second, so they're
very hard to overwhelm.) Missiles can be important - especially det-lasers
or KKMs vs overwhelmed/non-maneuvering targets - but they don't 
dominate.

Bruce
P.S. This has been debated ad nauseum on this list and TTL, so I would
direct people to the archives before replying.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:22:19 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

At 08:58 AM 03/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>nebula can be caused by a star going nova, yes?
>A supernova leaves behind an expanding cloud of gas that could be 
>considered a nebula, but such structures are generally short-lived and
>not very dense; the really big nebulae are the molecular clouds in which
>new stars are forming.
>
>Bruce

        Define "short lived" and "not very dense" for the less-savvy sorts,
such as myself.  Thanks!
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:18:11 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Courier Route Efficiency

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Courier Route Efficiency
...
>33% (or even up to 100%!!) faster than the X-Boat system. Once you
>start adding any complications to the route - branches or hubs - there
>will be inefficiencies in the system that will hinder your effectiveness.
>It doesn't matter to me how fast your courier is, if it leaves for two weeks 
>right before my most important piece of cargo shows up at your 
>shipping office.

  The complexities are a hassle, and for the cases I'm making they would be
avoided by concentrating on high-grading the commo market - connect the Hi-
Pop, Hi-Tech worlds and call it a days work. The assumption I've been working
with is weekly launches (although 8 day scheduling might work better), as
14 days between launches does badly cut into the short range J-5+ advantage.

>Either you add more boats - in effect duplicating the effort of the X-Boat
>system, just with longer legged craft - or you find your overall effectiveness
>eroded, to the point where jump-4 X-Boat traffic will be almost as fast.
>Some of your priority cargos will be much faster, some others will
>languish in your port facilities for weeks until the next courier shows up.

  In a courier-per-week case you achieve parity from 9-12 parsecs along,
and win hands down beyond that (well, except 16, I guess :> ). IAC, there's
also the advantage that a courier/parcel service can work to cherry-pick
worlds along its' long-distance routes, where a mail service might not be
able to do so; a J-5+ X-mail system might also still suffer from this.

  There is no basis whatsoever for a J-4 system being almost as fast as a
weekly J-5+ system over a distance of 20-100 or more parsecs - it wouldn't
even be close, even for a rationalized X-boat system using equally effective
routes.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:34:38 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I
...
>To boil it down. No side of this argument have come up with numbers that
>show profit or loss. You, Hanke and Ian claim that profitt is likely (without
>much numbers to support you :-). David (and I) claim that there loss is likely
>(without much numbers to support us). Its a stalemate that rests soley on the 
>IMTU argument. 

  My mistake; I thought that the post "Economics of potential courier routes"
(NOV/30) was fairly clear in discussing the revenue requirements for a basic
system of the sort discussed; weekly launches of minimal (~100 Dt) (HG) ships
to link major markets, in this case Glisten-Trin-Mora-Rhylanor.

  These 34 _billion_ TL F Imperials need to generate a _maximum_ of Cr 800,000
(i.e., KCr 800) per launch from one of these four worlds to support the entire
courier system between them. That is, each of these worlds - highly productive
(and thus wealthy?) and with population of 10-20 _times_ that of the modern
industrial West has to generate that revenue to support the intermediary jumps
to the next such world.

  E.G., using the somewhat specious declaration that Londons "official mind"
in the later 19th C. was only a thousand or so decision makers, and multiplying
that by 10 (after all, Victorian England wasn't quite as economically active
as 8-10 billion TL F Impies might be) and we get the possible result that there
could be as many as 10,000 people who might have to subscribe at Cr 4,000 p.a.
to generate this revenue.

  Naturally such a possibility is absurd and overtly capitalist, and as such
should be consigned to the dust-bin of management history :\


        Steven Hudson, 1998.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:57:24 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Courier Networks

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Courier Networks
...
>IMO, the benefit of a fully-realized X-Boat system will be it's reliability.
...
>you try. A smaller system - like the express mail couriers we've been 
>mentioning - will end up trading speed for reliability or availablity in most
>cases, unless they get as many ships as the X-Boats use.

  Why would a courier leaving every 7.5-8 days not be as reliable?
Sure, they're only point-to-point (although messages could then be
handed off to the X-Boats to save some time) but within that limit
they operate under the same constraints as X-Boats. The customer
knows that the ship leaves on day X, and lives with it.

>Yes, it only takes a jump-5 courier two jumps to make the Mora/Rhylanor
...
>Naval contracts. Now you get to sit on this time-sensitive data until
>your courier returns four weeks from now - or until it's sister ship, 
>running the opposite way, returns two weeks hence.

  This is an indication that a niche market may exist for short range
couriers, not that a weekly system isn't faster than the X-Boats. It
certainly doesn't address the fact that around MCr 500 would set up a
J-5 weekly courier between Mora & Rhylanor - would you care to report
how long the mapped X-Boats routes would take to do that run?

...
>(I figure j-4 X-Boats can follow their way stations and make Mora/Rhylanor
>in five weeks, though it would take longer if no boats were doing
>J-4 waystation to waystation when possible - some links on the route
>are only j-1 apart.)

  OK - I didn't notice that :( - but there you go - with four couriers
running you get a minimum two week saving - and you can't find enough
customers in 16-odd billion warm bodies to cough up KCr 800 max. in 
fees for each launch off their world (or vice versa, FWIW)?

>If you have two couriers on the route, your KCr-ish investment in a
>private J-5 run might save you a week - if neither of your couriers is
>nursing a busted Jump Gizmo at the halfway point. The X-Boats have
>enough ships not to worry about that, either.

  The shorter the run the less advantage is derived from a small number
of couriers; two ships is basically building a deliberately broken
business. If properly maintained, and allowing for acts of gods (or the
GM, YMMV) then there's no reason that the system shouldn't be as reliable
as a run from Toronto to Frankfurt.

>So, best case your private courier run saves you three weeks - a lifetime
>for time-sensitive business data. Worst case, your data never arrives
>and it takes you six months to find out for sure. You only get the "best 
>case" if you're keeping one of these ships in reserve for that special 
>message. How does your traffic travel if you don't want to send away your 
>courier just yet? By X-Boat...<G>

  For an extra Cr 3.0 I imagine they'll send a confirmation that the
message was received - you _never_ know if the intended recipient ever
read or understood it. If the couriers deal with the same physical
universe as the X-Boats then the worst case is a two week savings.

  You also pretty much get the best case one day per run period.

  Oh, while the terms of carriage might accept liabilty for malfeasance/
breach of faith, and do specify that loss of data due to asteroid collisions,
hijacking, mis-jumps or piracy aren't covered :)
 
        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:33:35 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

- ----------
> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
> Date: Friday, 4 December 1998 6:24
> 
> >From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
> ...
> >Dragging it back to Trav, here's where those gazillions of credits the
> >IN has at it's disposal can be spent without putting an SDB behind every
> >asteroid throughout known space...Unlike the super-effecient rational
> >naval force that everyone is postulating it to be, they dump the money
> >on large showy ships unsuited to the duties they need to be put to.
> 
>   Like the Kinunir, AHL, and Gazelle? <grumble>

Actually the Kinunir is at least vaguely OK for what it is:  a small,
self-escorting troop carrier.  Basically it's an upgrade of the good old
Merc Cruiser.  Another variation on the same theme is the good old Corsair,
with it's huge (for a "naval" ship of its size) hold.  Corsairs do actually
have legitimate uses...

In settings like TNE, or in very small navies, where ships are scarce, you
often need cargo and people hauling capability more than actual combat
capability.  Ships that can do that And fight, can't fight very well.  

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:01:11 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> This makes multi-world markets possible, but more and more limited as
> the size (and commo lag) grows. I suspect MegaCorp capitalization, like
> everything else in the Imperium is decentralized almost completely. 
> 

Capitalization, maybe.  Ownership, no.

It's pretty clear in M0 that the MegaCorps are "family businesses" of Noble
families and their supporters/factions.  They will use the joint-stock
company form, but I suspect will tend to attempt to retain control of the
various boards.

In MT, towards the end of the Rebellion, the Megacorps began consolidating
their assets in particular areas.  The Vilani megacorps and Tukera Lines
had begun the trend, and the others followed as interstellar trade
declined.  This suggests that several of them had core areas, where their
controlling shareholders were based.  (See Survival Margin, and maybe Hard
Times???)

Of course all of them will have had local subsidiaries, and some of these
would be very substantial businesses.  It's likely that these subsidiaries
could make up (err, am I in 1100 or 1200?) the majority of their
capitalised value, and that the "control" their key owners exercise is
through highly leveraged structures.

So, yes, Bruce is kind of right, but there are hard core controlling
interests, IMHO.

Hmm, I wonder if anyone can make sense of what I wrote?

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:19:24 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

> From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>

> Again, the point that someone can "afford" it shows nothing.  Weither
> their is enough news that can wait a certain amount of time, but
> looses significant money if it wait 33% longer, is debatable.
> 
IMHO, people have got fixated on the stock market model.  Think: Media.

Ok, so you own the Regina Post and I own the Regina News.  I get my news
reports two months before you do.  By the time you get it, it is worth
precisely nothing.  I make giga-bucks, you go out of business.

Volumes?  Enough, I suspect.  Sure, some of it is pretty tabloid, or
parochial, but our "Newspapers" are electronic and have search engines and
stuff attached.  And it's regular - you can run your service as often as
you can afford.
 
Furthermore, once you have established the backbone for this network, you
can then start selling space on it for other people's messages - becoming
an alternate xboat service..  Then you can haul the stock-market data.

TU existence?  Well, media networks similar to Reuters etc exist - TNS is a
fine example.  And Makhidkarun doesn't just sell Big Maks - it also
specialises in media and entertainment, including magazines.  This makes it
at least one prime candidate for running such a network.

The economics are driven by competitive pressures.  Either you pay for the
fastest available system, or your competitors eat you.

Legal limitations?  Well there are regulations on media here in Australia,
mainly to stop it becoming even more monopolised than it is.  The Imperial
government might want to keep J6 to itself, but "Big Mak" and the other
Megacorps are pretty powerful lobbies...

Collusion?  Could the media cartels have agreed to not try to cut each
other's throats this way?  Maybe, but all it would take is one aggressive
medium-size tabloid publisher with some well-armed friends to break the
cartel.  Maybe it hasn't happened yet.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:49:19 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

Rob Prior writes:

> ObTrav: Why do worlds have offworld units in the 1200 Imperium?  Is it to
> conquer their neighbours (in short wars)?  Satisfy Imperial obligations
> (form of taxation or feudal service)?  Maintain prestige?
>

Well, we know that the Imperium makes heavy use of colonial forces in
wartime.  Presumably there would need to be training exercises to allow the
colonial units to become familiar with environments other than those on
their own world.

In some cases, the colonial forces may actually perform the roles Imperial
forces would, if the latter are stretched thin in an area (subsector). 
Huscarle and other elite hi-tech units are most likely to be used here,
under the authority of local nobles.  There is an example of this for the
Duke of Regina's Huscarles in the Civil War given in an old JTAS and the
Spinward Marches Campaign (CT).

Of course, Huscarles are a bit of an odd case.  In some cases they may not
really quite count as planetary forces, but in others they would be the
"guard" units, IMO.

Forces serving with Imperial forces could be either required to be provided
(tax, feudal service, and/or treaty) or could be offered voluntarily either
for prestige, or because the world's elite has something serious at stake
in the particular conflict.

Could Planetary forces be used for expansionism?  Well, the Imperium tends
to frown on large power blocs forming within its territory, but there are
worlds that are colonies of other imperial worlds, (eg:
Garda-Vilis/Tanoose).  Presumably it happens sometimes.  The key is
probably the pragmatic political excuses used, and the political situation.

Planetary forces could potentially be used to further corporate interests
too.  Remember, senior Nobles are wealthy, and not merely powerful.  They
could well be able to arrange an intervention in their companies'
interests:  see the history of various "Banana Repulics".

It's not impossible for planetary forces to support other planetary
governments.  These alliances may be genuine, or may involve subsidies,
where the "allied" forces are effectively mercenaries.  This kind of thing
might be more common when a mid-tech world needs to support an expensive
high-tech army.

All the last few suggestions are situations that the Imperium would not
encourage.  However, the Imperium is run by men, not laws.  The principle
would be that anything that doesn't threaten the peace of the realm, and is
in the interests of the local Duke's family, is OK...

Obviously, this only scratches the surface.  IYTU, planetary forces can do
anything you want them to!

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:03:31 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

steve daniels wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Thankfully, the warrior-monk Ricardos, with the support of the Imperial
> Church of Sylea, have already devised a cunning plan to deal with the
> upstart "Restorers," because they foresaw that such an event would come
> 
> - Brother Claw, please bring me the  . . . Cunning Plan.
> 
> - But Bishop Fop, I thought you had the  . . . Cunning Plan.
> 
[in unison] "It had whiskers and a tail, I thought it was a weasel, so I
chased it off!"

> Bloo

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:10:01 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Smuggling

(Steven Hudson replied:

>From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
...
>>watch the duplicates appear. Add another world connected to any
>>two of the first four, and let one of the worlds modify the
>>message, and now watch overlapping duplicates of the original
>>and modified message appear.

>If the original message (content & identifier) is unchanged then
>duplicates are ignored as they accumulate; modified messages are
>new messages for such a filing system, otherwise the system is a
>nightmare.

But they do accumulate and burden the communication system. If a
message is actually a list composed of independent elements (e.g.
a cargo manifest or ship itinerary) and there is any possibility
of forgery, that's only a different kind of nightmare.

>  The main point a confirming info stream is to eventually be
>able to either corroborate claimed activities and/or to identify
>anomalies - ships that were not where they claimed they were,
>were ID'd in two places simultaneoously (?), or claimed at
>different times to be in different places (which may or may not
>be practical depending on how logs, etc., work). Thus, adding
>ships to watch lists for minor errors is not the point,
>IMHO.

The point is that _reliable_ and _timely_ are incompatible goals.
You cannot easily get both.  The same goes for _meaningful_ and
_detailed_. Whatever communications system you have, some of your
lucky or fast or well-camouflaged or small crooks (be it pirates,
smugglers, or anything else you care to name) are going to get
by.

>You shouldn't be sending requests for specific information
>unless you have real suspicions, which would presumably be
>handled by the appropriate investigators (OC, a big port may
>have such staff in their security department merely for thei own
>protection).

So your list is relevant and reliable, but it's still slow to get
out and doesn't include those who looked innocent but weren't, or
even those who only looked a little odd.  How many forms of
mopery and dopery in the spaceways qualify for inclusion on your
"Imperium's most wanted" list? The bigger it is, the harder it is
to manage.

>>   "Who cares that the Lutalin Countess was suspected 
>>of selling grav modules without proof of ownership on Erir six
months ago?
...

> ii) the above is the worst case of short-sighted
>administration, and is likely relatively rare in most TU's.

I wouldn't be too sure of that. Variations of "I don't **** care
a **** **** about any of this ****,  you **** ****. Don't ****
waste my **** time with this **** **** of ****" (Insert nouns and
adjectives to taste) appear to be quite common.  Just watch the
TML for a week or two. :)

>Most people agree that utter dumps like your example (1
>ship/week - bet it ain't big, either) are where such activities
>would have a good chance of long-term viability.

Some TUs or sectors of them have several such "utter dumps" for
every class A starport.

>>If you don't have enough evidence for a prosecution, why issue
>>a warrant? What happens to respect for the MoJ when a
>>substantial percentage of warrants don't hold up in court?

>  I guess it would be simpler to assume that everyone charged is
>guilty, but some people might run campaigns where legal errors
>do occur - remember, it's only in real life that lawyers are
>perfect :)

So, is Big Brother the emperor and does everyone love him? 8-\

>I'd have thought that a (largely computerized) shipping data
>collation system would be the most cost-effective way of
>indicating a variety of internal and external security threats.
>What alternatives do you feel provide superior effectiveness or
>efficiency? 

   A good analogy would be trying to run your shipping data
collation system through some sort of mail system between any two
sites. You can use any size or kind of diskette you want, but no
phone lines and nothing can travel faster than 20mph.  Also
remember that computing technology between different sites might
vary from Classic Roman Digital to Pentium whatever-the-latest-
version.
  (It occurs to me that LEOs looking for crooks aren't the ONLY
ones who would like to get a good look at shipping data...)
As for catching them, different kinds of crimes require different
methods. Combinations seem to work better than relying on just
one.

>Also, what's the practical and legal difference 
>between "petty" piracy and the run of the mill "we maybe kill
>some people and steal a MCr 60 [$US 1990? 120 million?] ship"
>sort of piracy?

Same thing. It's a matter of scale. If a world can afford 16,000
60 MCr traders for the price of one Trillion credit naval
squadron, you _could_ call theft of one or two of them petty.
  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:09:54 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Smuggling

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes: 

>Thad Coons writes:

>>It's not that hard to visualize. Take four worlds, each
>>connected with two others but not all the same number of jumps
>>apart. Send a message from one, have it rebroadcast to all
>>neighbors (except the originating world) and
>>watch the duplicates appear.

>How many duplicates of this messages did you get? I know that
>sometimes the Internet breaks down and we do get multiple
>messages, but mostly we don't.

That's exactly why bugs in automatic echoing and rebroadcasting
programs are the bane of the Internet. In a more controlled form,
it's actually quite common: X subscribes to two lists and posts
the same message to both of them: Y subscribes to the same two
lists, and reads the same message twice.  Both the Internet and
the X-boat system have sometimes unreliable links (do accidents
ever happen to X-boats?) The Internet tries to route a message
different ways if one link can't be used; and usually this works.
If there's a delay, it's usually seconds or minutes. This doesn't
work as well for the X-boats (or whatever substitute you use).
With the X-boats, it takes two weeks to find out whether a message got
through a link so you can try a different different routing. You have a
choice of accepting missing messages, delays of weeks, or
tolerating echoes.

>IMO it would be much more likely that someone would collect all
>these reports at the subsector level and analyse it. I think it
>would be an IN intelligence analyst, but it could also be
>someone working for an insurance company (actually, it would be
>both... and a slew of colleagues). After a while he'd be
>convinced that the Lutalin Countess was a wrong un', and if he
>is any good at his work, he'll be right. He may not be able to
>prove it, but he'll know. If he is able to prove it (and
>sometimes he will be) he passes the info along to the appropiate
>agency and a warrant is issued. If he can't, the LC is placed on
>the watch list and gets special attention for a while. Maybe
>then requests for extra documentation is sent out and if it
>takes a few months to get the replies back, so what? It's not
>like any government bureau I've ever heard about has ever
>destroyed any records... ;-)

Once again, you can have your info fast, or you can have it
reliable, but you can't have it both.  Any crook who sticks to an
area and a pattern long enough might as well hang out a "come get
me" sign anyway. 

>I think you can be pretty sure that a substantial percentage of
>MoJ warrants will be upheld in court. What we can't be sure is
>that they would have been upheld in an American court.

   My opinions of the American court system are off-topic on this
list, but quite apart from the presumption of guilt or innocence:
   Do MoJ warrants hold up because they are usually solidly based
on evidence, or because they are Imperial? If the latter, then we
can assume that in many quarters, "Imperial Ministry of Justice"
is regarded as an oxymoron.

>>IMHO there are better ways to combat petty piracy.

Several of them have already been discussed on the list. Cargo tracing
is one possible tool, but by itself it won't solve much

>Any crime that requires a multi-megacredit tool to perform is
>more than petty.

   As far as a pirate ship being a multi-megacredit investment
goes,  please don't tell me you think someone who plans to make a
living from larceny and murder is going to go down to the
shipyard and plunk down a down payment on a conventional mortgage
for a properly registered ship like a respectable citizen unless they start
as a privateer. Even then,  IMTU pirate ships are almost always stolen
property in the first place. In the second, they might change hands for a
trade of a lesser model plus a few MCr or so in booty.
   I'd consider "corsair" type ships to be built by government
subsidy for the use of privateers: They tend to be purchased at a
steep discount compared to other types of ships. If the
government recoups any of its investment, they're cheaper than
pure warships. They also tend to be written off as destroyed or
missing in action...only to turn up in the hands of pirates a few
years after the war is over.
   "There are only three rules to privateering. First, we shoot
pirates. Second, anyone who steals from our side is a pirate.
Third, salvage from enemy ships is not piracy."
   Thor Bradley Rudbek of Rudbek at Rudbek was surely not the
first to notice that it can be ruinously expensive to be "rich".
Starship expenses can eat a remarkably big hole in a MCr in a
remarkably short time.
   Even if just having posession of a starship makes you filthy
rich compared to the celebrated man in the street, how often is a
pirate ever going to sell the thing for more than a few percent
of its original price? I don't think it would be often enough to
even retire in comfort.
  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 16:07:21 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: GT Ship - IN Fleet Courier

Craig Barnett made an interesting GT conversion for the Fleet
Courier.
<snip stats for ship design>

Here is my take on the J6 courier from CT Supp9 (Fighting Ships):

400ton Fleet Courier
GURPS Tech Level 12
MCr 187.0084

Specifications:
400dT Streamlined hull (SzMd. +9, 0.5xarmor => DR11, PD3, Hitpoints
Hull:  37500, Hitpoints Turrets:  1200)
Radical Stealth and Radical Emissions Cloaking
Sealed (of course)
4 turrets
1 Hardened basic bridge
1 Engineering
2.5 Hold
28 Jump Drive (Jump 6)
240 Jump Tank
15 Maneuver (Space Accel:  2.12G loaded, 2.15G empty, 3.90G empty w
no Jump fuel) (Airspeed:  1997 mph)
1 SickBay
5 Staterooms
1 Utility
5 Fuel Processing (7.5 hr to refine full load)
6 Missile Racks (fill 2 turrets)
6 Lasers (fill 2 turrets)

Mass:  709.175 loaded, 696.675 empty, 384.675 empty no fuel
all spaces utilized
Crew:  4-9 (depending on needs):  1 Command, 2-3 Engineering, 1
Medical, 4 Gunnery (can dispense with Gunners and an Engineer in
"safe" areas)

This was done with paper/pencil/calculator since my spreadsheet
wasn't finished yet, so let me know if I made mistakes.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1238
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, December 4 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1239



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1232
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Some questions...
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Spinal Mount sized Bays
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Gazelle variant (HG)
Re: Smuggling
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Stock trading 
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Jump-6 courier network I
Re: Smuggling
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1238
Re: Missiles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:32:59 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1232

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1232
...
>Well, if someone else alleges something, it is up to them to
>support it.  Also, I have never claimed that they were uneconomic.
>I claimed that the existance of a jump-6 X-boat like network
>is hardly automatic based on the setting.

  You allege that such a business would be unlikely -  is that supported?

  I'd agree that a J-6 X-boat like network is far from guaranteed,
and in fact minimal adherence to canon prevents it. A J-5+ courier
system linking major worlds only is an entirely different proposition
for most purposes, and is both cheaper and much easier to justify as
a profitable business; basic figures on the business have been posted.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:16:40 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

At 09:40 3/12/98 -0500, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

>Number 1). is easily solved.  I recently (well, last summer) had the
>opportunity to tour a couple of "Frigate Navy" frigates (Canada, Germany,
>The Netherlands, Gr. Britain) and one thing I found on some of those
>frigates was the modular nature of the weapons systems.  AAW and SS missile
>were pretty much stacked up on the deck, which made them fairly easy to
>add/replace/service.  I'm sure the price in terms of damage control
>problems (debateable) and increased wear and tear (mitigatable) of systems
>mounted this way is made up for by the advantages, but I couldn't help
>thinking; any ship could be outfitted with these weapons...assuming a few
>square meters of deck space could be found.  Why escort tankers when they
>can be provided

IIRC the ANZAC frigate design has modular weapons, it's just that our
government in its infinite wisdom, is buying the cheapest (read crappiest)
options.

>To bring this kicking and screaming back to traveller;  I've always wanted
>to mount missiles on the outside of my fighters...kind of like contemporary
>aircraft.  That also leads to mounting external missile 'pods' on just
>about any craft in the traveller inventory.  Aside from decreasing
>acceleration performance (significantly in some cases) what is wrong with
>this tactic?

Don't the Rampart fighters do this (in at least some versions)?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:28:00 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Some questions...

At 11:38 3/12/98 -0500, Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>
>>With THAT aggressive breeding you would start with breeding population of
>>about 30
>>male donors and 9970 baby factories.  After 20 years the initial breeding
>>population would retire but would be replaced by the first of the new
>>generation,
>
>
>I would *not* want to live ona planet with;
>9,970 Pregnant Women
>9,970 newborn infants and only 10,000 caretakers.

I did a simple study a while back to show the effect having only
preindustrial food production means has on population growth. When you go
through the figures it rapidly becomes clear that you have to have many
more men than women in the population before the low birth rate is more of
a limitation on growth than shortage of food production. The lower the
surplus food production by the adult population, the less the shortage of
women matters. For an extreme example if it takes 100 adults to produce
enough food for themselves and one child, obviously as long as there is one
woman (though a few more to allow for losses during childbirth would be of
use) the birth rate can easily out-strip the growth in food production.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:39:35 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

At 11:23 3/12/98 -0800, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

>The Tigress, for example - in High Guard terms this was a massively
>overpriced ship, only marginally more combat effective than the 200,000 ton
>battleships and arguably less combat effective than a 90,000 ton battlerider
>(which is harder to hit.) Some of these are High Guard artificats, but one
coulcd
>imagine in general lots of political pressures in favour of big flag-showing
>battleships.

Was the Tigress the BB with a whole lot of fighters, as well? I've only
seen that particular book once, and like a fool I didn't buy it (being a
_Space Opera_ player in those days). I've always had this suspicion that a
lot of pro BR arguments use the Tigress as the BB example because it's not
an optimal design.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:46:14 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Spinal Mount sized Bays

At 15:56 3/12/98 EST, DustyLV769 wrote:
>	
>	I had a question for the list...
>
>	I realize that once a ship has been built, it's spinal mount cannot be
>changed (or made larger; not sure about smaller).  However, what about ships
>that never had a spinal mount installed when built?  You could not put one in
>later...but since bays are no longer limited to just 50 and 100 tons, why
>can't you put a spinal-mount sized weapon in a custom designed bay?  This
>gives low-tech ships a chance of possibly being given a form of SLEP to keep
>it competitive (at least somewhat) as opposed to building a whole new
class of
>vessels.
>
>	Is this possible and legit, or is it simply pure rules-lawyering?

I can't see why not, as long as there's room for the bay . In FF&S1 there
is the paralell mount, which is built alongside the spine, and limited to
80% of the ship's length. As there aren't actually structural I can't see
any reason one couldn't retrofit them.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:40:35 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

At 12:34 3/12/98 -0800, Steven Hudson wrote:

>  Why rapid fire - haven't you people ever heard of _accuracy_? :>

What's wrong with both?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:21:04 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

At 09:12 3/12/98 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>Dragging it back to Trav, here's where those gazillions of credits the
>IN has at it's disposal can be spent without putting an SDB behind every
>asteroid throughout known space...Unlike the super-effecient rational
>naval force that everyone is postulating it to be, they dump the money
>on large showy ships unsuited to the duties they need to be put to.

Which should have an "interesting" effect on the occasional pir... um
"independant free trader" who does get caught.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:06:36 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Gazelle variant (HG)

>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Gazelle variant (HG)
...
> questionable performance). The combat ineffectiveness is mission based,
> but the TL E basis is clearly obsolete and unlikely to be produced in
> future. >>
>
>Good ships! They're better than the CT patrol cruiser too! The only thing I
>would change if I could, would be to put a better computer than a model 5fib
>or model 6; though I bet the design is too tight as is...

  The LE is pretty much a straight "correction" of the CE built at TL F,
so the 6 was mandated right along with the sucky Agility and the poor
weapons load out (per HG, weapon-X hits will wreck you). The armour's
not at a real good level, either :(

  The IE could have a 6 or an E (5fib) - for protracted raiding the latter
seemed better to avoid needless mission kills. Offence is marginally degraded
but that hardly matters against small freighters, and the combat Agility of
3 really makes a difference, particularly against Zho frigates, et al.

  A combat optimized Gazelle wouldn't be 3-400 tons, IMHO :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 00:19:42 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Smuggling

>From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Smuggling
...
>But they do accumulate and burden the communication system. If a
>message is actually a list composed of independent elements (e.g.
>a cargo manifest or ship itinerary) and there is any possibility
>of forgery, that's only a different kind of nightmare.

  If they're transported on compact media (~CD) and the duplicates aren't
kept on file then the level of traffic could easily be tolerable. While
inserting false data into the stream must be possible, the main point of 
collating all this data is to look for anomalies - like the ship that 
picked up one thing and delivered something else/somewhere else.

...
>The point is that _reliable_ and _timely_ are incompatible goals.
>You cannot easily get both.  The same goes for _meaningful_ and
>_detailed_. Whatever communications system you have, some of your
>lucky or fast or well-camouflaged or small crooks (be it pirates,
>smugglers, or anything else you care to name) are going to get by.

  OK - I'll take reliable and meaningful (whatever happened to choosing
between fast, cheap, and "food"? - ah, the good old days :> ). Again, a
system to double-check traffic doesn't need to be fast unless you're
trying to figure out which ship is the commerce raider - for which direct
methods will likely be much better.

  FWIW, I'd be shocked if some of the pirates, smugglers, etc. aren't the
security forces or intelligence organizations running ops (talk about a 
neat way to remove loud-mouthed conspiracy theorists...).

...
>So your list is relevant and reliable, but it's still slow to get
>out and doesn't include those who looked innocent but weren't, or
>even those who only looked a little odd.  How many forms of
>mopery and dopery in the spaceways qualify for inclusion on your
>"Imperium's most wanted" list? The bigger it is, the harder it is
>to manage.

  Slow to get out, but probably a lot faster over a sector or two than
a tramp freighter. IAC, it's not meant to be a short term solution.

  What ticks off the powers that be (and who they are!) varies by TU.
It's not impossible that people who try to fund J-6 courier networks
are really high on certain shitlists. I'd go with threats to internal
security (piracy, hijacking - smuggling is peripheral due to the use
of it as a cover for fencing, and enemy intel ops), major economic
crimes, and serious crimes against persons (murder, assault & battery,
kidnapping, rape, spamming). 

...
>I wouldn't be too sure of that. Variations of "I don't **** care
...
>Some TUs or sectors of them have several such "utter dumps" for
>every class A starport.

 "I don't **** care about any" other TU's :) - well, except the OTU :)
As for the rest, if the Imperium can't on average find 2-3 reliable 
staff per backwater then I cringe to consider the reliability of their
military personnel (which would, OC, explain the Rebellion...). OC, it's
not unreasonable to have an Imperium so corrupt that slaves and "donor"
organs are euphemistically advertised in every port as it would explain
a lot, but it would need to be spelled out a bit more clearly.

...
>   A good analogy would be trying to run your shipping data
>collation system through some sort of mail system between any two
>sites. You can use any size or kind of diskette you want, but no
>phone lines and nothing can travel faster than 20mph.  Also
>remember that computing technology between different sites might
>vary from Classic Roman Digital to Pentium whatever-the-latest-
>version.

  Similar systems worked fairly well before computers - or electronic
communications of any sort. I think the 3I could also master the
logistics of putting a standardized port management laptop on every
backwater if they really felt the need.

...
>Same thing. It's a matter of scale. If a world can afford 16,000
>60 MCr traders for the price of one Trillion credit naval
>squadron, you _could_ call theft of one or two of them petty.

  Perhaps you should discuss when a cost is petty/trivial with Mr.
Summers :)  More seriously, the fact remains that MCr 60 is a value
that will fund a substantial effort to prevent and/or recover a loss.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:23:44 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:19:24 +1000, "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
>> Again, the point that someone can "afford" it shows nothing.  Weither
>> their is enough news that can wait a certain amount of time, but
>> looses significant money if it wait 33% longer, is debatable.

>IMHO, people have got fixated on the stock market model.  Think: Media.

>Ok, so you own the Regina Post and I own the Regina News.  I get my news
>reports two months before you do.  By the time you get it, it is worth
>precisely nothing.  I make giga-bucks, you go out of business.

Well, is this going to be enough to support an entire X-boat
kind of distribution system?  How much are they willing to pay?
I don't see it myself and we are talking non-Trivial amount
of money.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:46:47 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Stock trading 

Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil> wrote

> I could see the major companies
> being traded on such markets but not on others....  Or that there are
> classes of shares...  One share of Berkshire Hathaway will grow to how
> much by the time of 5600 maybe?

I thought that everyone knew that Berkshire Hathaway collapsed around
- -1776 at the end of the Rule of Man....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:47:51 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote

> > <PLUG>
> > BITS released 101 Religions not so very long ago. This is mainly
> > humanocentric but does have an Aslan religion (and possibly a Vargr 
> > and a Droyne one IIRC). It was carefully edited to try and make 
> > material playable and non-inflammatory.

> Aw yes, we have heard rumors of this heresy. These "BITS" people 
> that proclaim they are producing "new" traveller material. Lies I tell 
> you. We have seen no hard proof. just some rumors from small foreign
> island that is too close to France..

You could, of course, contribute to the next BITS book & they may well
send you a copy for free....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:35:27 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Alan Bradley wrote:

>
>Ok, so you own the Regina Post and I own the Regina News.  I get my news
>reports two months before you do.  By the time you get it, it is worth
>precisely nothing.  I make giga-bucks, you go out of business.

But look at what we have today. Most norwegain newspapers consists almost
enterily of norwegian news, some european news, and few from other places (the
big big news and some funny stuff) I think that you'll get planetary
"newspapers", who really cares what goes on a parsec away anyway. There is
enough happening on the planet anyway. In smaller population, there won't be 
place for two papers anyway.

>Volumes?  Enough, I suspect.  Sure, some of it is pretty tabloid, or
>parochial, but our "Newspapers" are electronic and have search engines and
>stuff attached.  And it's regular - you can run your service as often as
>you can afford.

But still, it isn't to many who are interested in news from more than a couple
of tens of miles from there home. How many of you americans or australians 
follow european news regulary? How many of us europeans follow american news?  
And does anybody follow news from Africa, except for africans?

>TU existence?  Well, media networks similar to Reuters etc exist - TNS is a
>fine example.  And Makhidkarun doesn't just sell Big Maks - it also
>specialises in media and entertainment, including magazines.  This makes it
>at least one prime candidate for running such a network.

But who does TNS sell to? I figure that they operate much like Reuter, they sell
to anybody that wants it?

>The economics are driven by competitive pressures.  Either you pay for the
>fastest available system, or your competitors eat you.

The problem is that there is quite possibly a local competitor that is going
to have a much more easily sold product than you (in the news business) as 
people tend to be very self-centered.

>Alan Bradley

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:04:29 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

>>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I
>...
>>To boil it down. No side of this argument have come up with numbers that
>>show profit or loss. You, Hanke and Ian claim that profitt is likely (without
>>much numbers to support you :-). David (and I) claim that there loss is likely
>>(without much numbers to support us). Its a stalemate that rests soley on the 
>>IMTU argument. 
>
>  My mistake; I thought that the post "Economics of potential courier routes"
>(NOV/30) was fairly clear in discussing the revenue requirements for a basic
>system of the sort discussed; weekly launches of minimal (~100 Dt) (HG) ships
>to link major markets, in this case Glisten-Trin-Mora-Rhylanor.

Hold your horses a bit here. Now you see this has become confussing to me.
First we were talking about a extencive J6 - X-boatish network that would 
carry information (mail,news etc.) throughout the Imperium, now were down to
an express route between four worlds.

Second. Your using a HG-ship. Whats its cost? I don't own HG, so I can't easily
find this out. Since I'm a FFS-guy myself how does the prices compare?
 
>
>  These 34 _billion_ TL F Imperials need to generate a _maximum_ of Cr 800,000
>(i.e., KCr 800) per launch from one of these four worlds to support the entire
>courier system between them. That is, each of these worlds - highly productive
>(and thus wealthy?) and with population of 10-20 _times_ that of the modern
>industrial West has to generate that revenue to support the intermediary jumps
>to the next such world.

This is were you miss some of my views. We have four worlds of over 8 billion 
TL F citizens each. What do you trade between these worlds that they can't
produce themself? Why would anybody on Glisten be interested in what goes on
on Mora? There is enough going on on Glisten to fill every newspaper to the
brim. You assume that all citizens on Glisten will have an interest in Mora.
I'm not even sure that one citizen on Glisten would give a rats ass about
what goes on on Mora. You see. You can find the number that is needed to support
the network (although your numbers lack the expences for other expences than 
building the ships, maintaining them and crewing them), but there is now way 
that you can show if this number is possible to meet. You can argue from 
your point of view. I can argue from my point of view. You might think that I'm
just being argumentative, but you should consider that I actually might have a
hole other viewof the Imperium than you. 
  
>  E.G., using the somewhat specious declaration that Londons "official mind"
>in the later 19th C. was only a thousand or so decision makers, and multiplying
>that by 10 (after all, Victorian England wasn't quite as economically active
>as 8-10 billion TL F Impies might be) and we get the possible result that there
>could be as many as 10,000 people who might have to subscribe at Cr 4,000 p.a.
>to generate this revenue.

"might" and "the possible result". Two phrases in your sentence that brings my
point out in daylight. You see, I don't want a world taht is dominated by the TL
F impies. Were they do soley trade with themself. I see the Imperium as a
soceity were people on these hi pop, hi tech worlds has as much envolvment with 
spacetravel as we have with NASA. There will be accounts of ships leaving and
coming. But news from other worlds will be as scarce as news about astrophysical 
discoveries are today. 1 to 2 newsstories a day seems guite right to me. And
if we look at the TNS-news releases that might mot be to much of.   

>  Naturally such a possibility is absurd and overtly capitalist, and as such
>should be consigned to the dust-bin of management history :\

:)

>        Steven Hudson, 1998.


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:26:09 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Smuggling

On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

>>From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: Smuggling
>...
>>But they do accumulate and burden the communication system. If a
>>message is actually a list composed of independent elements (e.g.
>>a cargo manifest or ship itinerary) and there is any possibility
>>of forgery, that's only a different kind of nightmare.
>
>  If they're transported on compact media (~CD) and the duplicates aren't
>kept on file then the level of traffic could easily be tolerable. While
>inserting false data into the stream must be possible, the main point of 
>collating all this data is to look for anomalies - like the ship that 
>picked up one thing and delivered something else/somewhere else.

One problem that might araise is the accidental destruction of the 
record media (i.e the CD in this case). Imagine a X-Boat carring 
mail that is essential to a corporation or maybe to a law suit and
arriving in-system discore that the hard-drive and backups are 
corrupted due to a human error, jump space anomali, etc. ;-)

>>So your list is relevant and reliable, but it's still slow to get
>>out and doesn't include those who looked innocent but weren't, or
>>even those who only looked a little odd.  How many forms of
>>mopery and dopery in the spaceways qualify for inclusion on your
>>"Imperium's most wanted" list? The bigger it is, the harder it is
>>to manage.
>
>  Slow to get out, but probably a lot faster over a sector or two than
>a tramp freighter. IAC, it's not meant to be a short term solution.

How is this information handled when the X-Boat gets in-system.

Say there is a warrant out for a smuggler. The warrant is sent out
by xboat. Is it sent out in all directions, or in the most likly direction
that the smuggler has gone? When reaching a system, does it automaticly 
go with the next x-boat out, or is it up to the starport sheriff to
send it on? If it is sent on automaticly and the starport sheriff
has arrested the smuggler what then?   

>  What ticks off the powers that be (and who they are!) varies by TU.
>It's not impossible that people who try to fund J-6 courier networks
>are really high on certain shitlists. I'd go with threats to internal
>security (piracy, hijacking - smuggling is peripheral due to the use
>of it as a cover for fencing, and enemy intel ops), major economic
>crimes, and serious crimes against persons (murder, assault & battery,
>kidnapping, rape, spamming). 

Imagine a X-boat network with a filter on certain names to keep
the warrents on their arrest from being distributed :-)

> "I don't **** care about any" other TU's :) - well, except the OTU :)
>As for the rest, if the Imperium can't on average find 2-3 reliable 
>staff per backwater then I cringe to consider the reliability of their
>military personnel (which would, OC, explain the Rebellion...). OC, it's
>not unreasonable to have an Imperium so corrupt that slaves and "donor"
>organs are euphemistically advertised in every port as it would explain
>a lot, but it would need to be spelled out a bit more clearly.

But how the hell do they determine if the staff is reliable. You can't, so
you hire the one you think you can rely on, but among these there will be
corrupted staff, just like there is today. (And incompetent also)

>  Perhaps you should discuss when a cost is petty/trivial with Mr.
>Summers :)  More seriously, the fact remains that MCr 60 is a value
>that will fund a substantial effort to prevent and/or recover a loss.

Why? With an average GDP of 15000Cr (at 4$ per Cr -> 60.000$)
versus the average GDP of under 3000$ today, this is no more than 
a car theft (assuming that the ship is not new). And we know how 
serious the police are about car theft today :-) They routinly call
in the military to get these thieves, just like the IN is taking care
of the pirates. (sarcasme intended ;-)

>
>        Steven Hudson
>
>

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 21:49:21
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1238

>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
>Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
>
>In settings like TNE, or in very small navies, where ships are scarce, you
>often need cargo and people hauling capability more than actual combat
>capability.  Ships that can do that And fight, can't fight very well.  
>

The other concept is the Battle Rider, with a mixture of cargo, fuel and
attack shuttles as required.

>From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Smuggling
>
>The point is that _reliable_ and _timely_ are incompatible goals.
>You cannot easily get both.  The same goes for _meaningful_ and
>_detailed_. Whatever communications system you have, some of your
>lucky or fast or well-camouflaged or small crooks (be it pirates,
>smugglers, or anything else you care to name) are going to get
>by.
>

Some ? Most. But it increases the risk, and decreases the chance that they
will survive for long enough to learn their trade well.

The toher risk for smugglers is RICO type laws - you may be able to make a
profit of KCr 500 smuggling stolen ship parts, but you are risking a MCr 20
ship doing so.

>   A good analogy would be trying to run your shipping data
>collation system through some sort of mail system between any two
>sites. You can use any size or kind of diskette you want, but no
>phone lines and nothing can travel faster than 20mph.  Also
>remember that computing technology between different sites might
>vary from Classic Roman Digital to Pentium whatever-the-latest-
>version.
>  (It occurs to me that LEOs looking for crooks aren't the ONLY
>ones who would like to get a good look at shipping data...)
>As for catching them, different kinds of crimes require different
>methods. Combinations seem to work better than relying on just
>one.

Yep. If you want to go after fraud, go thru the documentation.

There are also lots of good adventure opportunities with people who
shouldnt retailing commercial shipping data.

>Several of them have already been discussed on the list. Cargo tracing
>is one possible tool, but by itself it won't solve much
>

Yep. But it's one more tool for the locker.

>   I'd consider "corsair" type ships to be built by government
>subsidy for the use of privateers: They tend to be purchased at a
>steep discount compared to other types of ships. If the
>government recoups any of its investment, they're cheaper than
>pure warships. They also tend to be written off as destroyed or
>missing in action...only to turn up in the hands of pirates a few
>years after the war is over.

Why not use them as legitimate Mercenary Cruisers or as Frontier Traders ?

>   Even if just having posession of a starship makes you filthy
>rich compared to the celebrated man in the street, how often is a
>pirate ever going to sell the thing for more than a few percent
>of its original price? I don't think it would be often enough to
>even retire in comfort.

There are several problem with this, at least as far as the Marches goes.
Firstly, there are several areas (Sword Worlds, Vargr Extents, Federation
of Arden) that would not ask too many questions about a ship's previous
ownership history. In the case of the Vargr, go two or three governments
over, and I dont think they'd care at all.

Secondly, there is very little functional difference between a Frontier
Trader, a Mercenary Cruiser and a Pirate ... big cargo hold, better
armament and maneuver than most merchants, big passenger capacity.

Thus, I believe if you are prepared to travel some way, I believe that you
can sell stolen ships for a fair percentage of their value.

Now, this doesnt mean I believe that piracy around mainworlds is
profitable, but once you have stolen a ship, you can get buckets of credits
for it.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 22:14:29
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Missiles

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Missile Warfare Relevancy
>
>        Yeah, good point, but the whole Traveller combat system is based on
>onion-peeling odds.  You build a PAWs, I add armor.  You build nuclear
>weapons, I build Dampers.  You build meson guns, I build meson screens.  You
>build K-Kill weapons, I build repulsors.  You use lasers & energy, I deploy
>sand and armor.
>        So, based on that logic, we should never wind up fighting, because
>there is no point in putting weapons on our ships, because the defenses we
>mount are cheaper than the cost of the weapons.  Now, I admit I am be
>facitous (sp) but you see what I mean.

Yes, but the problem is the main counters for PAWs and Meson Guns (high gee
maneuver) are expensive, and the main counters for lasers and missiles
(thin armour and sandcasters and lasers respectivly) are cheap.

>        Also, keep in mind, that it is an economics issue...  if you have
>"x" batteries of defenses, I need "x+1/odds of hitting" to overwhelm your
>defenses and frag it.  The bottom line is after I have fired my "n" missiles
>at you and actually immolated your ship, is that cheaper than what it cost
>you to buy your ship?  If yes, I win.  If no, you win.

One laser costs KCr 250 under HG. One ship-wrecker missile costs MCr 2.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1239
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, December 4 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1240



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Stock Trading
Re: Repatriation Bonds
Re: Fast Couriers
More toys from Ditzie
Re: G:T ship design questions
Re: Astrogaphy Question
Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Spinal Mount sized Bays
GT Gunship
GT - Xboat Tender
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: alpha centauri
External armament pods (was Re: Dumber than Mud (OT))
Re: Survey Speeds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 22:22:19
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Stock Trading

>From: Dave Seagraves <daveseag@io.com>
>Subject: RE: Stock trading .02 worth
>

>   I just joined the TML.  Thought I'd insert my own Cr0.02 here.
>   The major problem that's been mentioned is preventing one individual =
>from taking advantage of the difference in stock prices between one =
>world and another.  So to prevent this the Imperium would have rules . . =
>.

Why would the Imperium care ? Anyone too poor for good information is
clearly too poor to be important.

>
>Rules for Stock Trading
>   Each corporation's stock is only traded on one stock exchange (like =
>NASDAQ) per system.  However, market forces are only allowed to change =
>the stock's price in only one market (usually where the corporation's =
>headquarters is located).  On all other worlds the local market sets the =
>price of a stock based on its last word from the "home" market of that =
>stock.  

I can accept that 'starting price' exchanges may occour ('I contract to buy
from you 100 000 shares of Stermetal at the price on the Regina Exhange on
122-1117'), but I can also see why the buyer and seller would want a
certain price.

>For example: Sternmetal's (symbol: STM) corporate headquarters =
>is on . . .  let's say Efate (Spinward Marches/Regina), so this is where =
>the stock is normally traded.  However Sternmetal also does business on =
>Roup (one jump away) and its stock is traded there as well.  The price =
>of STM is set by normal market forces in the Efate stock exchange, and =
>can change minute by minute.  The price of STM on Roup only changes =
>every time an X-Boat comes in and transmits the latest Efate price to =
>the Roup stock exchange.  The price of STM remains unchanged until the =
>next X-Boat from Efate updates the price again.

Is it unlawful to buy stocks at fixed agreed prices ? If so, this is a
*major* shift away from the general Imperial laissez-faire principles.

>   Individuals and entities can still make private stock trades outside =
>of a stock exchange.  The value of trades done over time should be no =
>more than the minimum cost it would take to travel from wherever the =
>transaction occurs to the home market's system.  

*should* or *must* ? If *should*, then toss the rules as a dead letter.

>   Any holes in these rules?  Could someone still abuse this and make a =
>killing?
>

Easily *grin*

>This might work, but I don't think it very likely.  The vast majority of
>stock owners will not be "Travellers" anyway, though I'd bet a high
>proportion of Travellers would be stock holders.  And then we are only
>talking about a few MegaCorps anyway (15-20 all told).  I think MegaCorp
>stock would be thinly traded, very expensive, inherited. 

Megacorporate stock mught be thinly traded, but 1% of a megacorp's stock is
still a shitload of value.

>
>Ah, but there is money to be made by having information or selling it
>beyond where the official news has reached.  Time is money, even moreso
>in a timelag environment.
>=20
>> so a person that travels around alot could have stock certs that look =
>like
>

Yep. In spades, in fact.

Remember, the House of Rothschild went from modertae to giant on advance
news of Waterloo ... I also have unreliable memories of some group of
investors putting the Duke of Malborough on retainer, so they could have
first news of how his wars went (ahh, the good old days of sold commissions
...).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:35:37 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Repatriation Bonds

At 08:55 03/12/1998 -0500, Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:
>Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> writes:
>>Walter Smith wrote:
>>> I'd see it as a very odd situation if a private mercenary company got a
>>> ride on _any_ Imperial Navy craft. The Imperium "tolerates" mercenaries,
>>> remember? 
>>
>>Well in Fifth Frontier War I've got counters for quite a few mercenary
>>regiments. And the BatRons have the ability to carry them.
>
>Those mercenaries were hired by the Imperium. That's different from
>carrying mercenaries who are freelancing or just being repatriated.
>
>That's aplot opening, though. A mercenary unit needs to activate their
>repatriation bonds, but there's no transport offworld. An Imperial Captain
>offers offworld transport in exchange for the unit doing a job...
>

I appologise if I ever gave the impression that allowing the PC's
mercenary unit to escape off planet by spending their repatriation
bond with a passing Cruiser Captain was other than an gift to the
Referee entitled "How to get your players to go where you want and
accept that very dangerous mission for little money"

:->

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 23:06:18
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Fast Couriers
>
>But look at what we have today. Most norwegain newspapers consists almost
>enterily of norwegian news, some european news, and few from other places
(the
>big big news and some funny stuff) I think that you'll get planetary
>"newspapers", who really cares what goes on a parsec away anyway. There is
>enough happening on the planet anyway. In smaller population, there won't be 
>place for two papers anyway.
>

If Oslo is anything like every other major city I've visited, it is going
to have at least two major newspapers. It has to be a pretty sad town
(Hobart, Fairbanks) to have only one provincial newspaper.

>
>But still, it isn't to many who are interested in news from more than a
couple
>of tens of miles from there home. How many of you americans or australians 
>follow european news regulary? How many of us europeans follow american
news?  
>And does anybody follow news from Africa, except for africans?
>

I'm a news junkie, although I admit I dont know for sure who the Norwegian
government is (I think the Social Democrats are in, but I'm not 100%
certain). But I follow German politics reasonably closely, and I am sure
you can find Norwegian Greens who know the name Bob Brown.

>Second. Your using a HG-ship. Whats its cost? I don't own HG, so I can't easily
>find this out. Since I'm a FFS-guy myself how does the prices compare?
> 

Jump-6 TL 15 couriers are cheaper in FFS2. Most designs crunch out to about
MCr 150, including maneuver drives and some cargo space.

>>  These 34 _billion_ TL F Imperials need to generate a _maximum_ of Cr
800,000
>>(i.e., KCr 800) per launch from one of these four worlds to support the
entire
>>courier system between them. That is, each of these worlds - highly
productive
>>(and thus wealthy?) and with population of 10-20 _times_ that of the modern
>>industrial West has to generate that revenue to support the intermediary
jumps
>>to the next such world.
>
>This is were you miss some of my views. We have four worlds of over 8
billion 
>TL F citizens each. What do you trade between these worlds that they can't
>produce themself? 

What trade is there between Germany and America that they couldnt produce
themselves ?

Interstellar trade works because of novelty and economies of scale.

>Why would anybody on Glisten be interested in what goes on
>on Mora? There is enough going on on Glisten to fill every newspaper to the
>brim. You assume that all citizens on Glisten will have an interest in Mora.

About 0.1% of them is about 10 million customers ... even better economics
if you assume that rich people are more interested in what happens elsewhere.

>I'm not even sure that one citizen on Glisten would give a rats ass about
>what goes on on Mora. You see. You can find the number that is needed to support
>the network (although your numbers lack the expences for other expences than 
>building the ships, maintaining them and crewing them), but there is now way 
>that you can show if this number is possible to meet. 

When you are dealing with MCr 150 assets with four (count em) crew, the
other expenses tend to drift slowly into the background compared to ponying
up the cost of the ships.

>"might" and "the possible result". Two phrases in your sentence that brings my
>point out in daylight. You see, I don't want a world taht is dominated by the TL
>F impies. Were they do soley trade with themself. I see the Imperium as a
>soceity were people on these hi pop, hi tech worlds has as much envolvment with 
>spacetravel as we have with NASA. There will be accounts of ships leaving and
>coming. But news from other worlds will be as scarce as news about
astrophysical 
>discoveries are today. 1 to 2 newsstories a day seems guite right to me. And
>if we look at the TNS-news releases that might mot be to much of.   

Unfortunatly, the Spinward Marches are completely dominated by a handful of
high-population, high technology worlds.

I'd prefer having the highest population in the Marches at about 100
million. Blame Marc Miller for making population on a log bell curve, and
not fixing the die rolls correctly for the Marches back in the good old days.

>Say there is a warrant out for a smuggler. The warrant is sent out
>by xboat. Is it sent out in all directions, or in the most likly direction
>that the smuggler has gone? When reaching a system, does it automaticly 
>go with the next x-boat out, or is it up to the starport sheriff to
>send it on? If it is sent on automaticly and the starport sheriff
>has arrested the smuggler what then?   
>

Goes into the starport computer, gets cross-checked with the arrest list
and sent on. How do the Norwegian police handle 'Wanted' lists, anyway ?

>Why? With an average GDP of 15000Cr (at 4$ per Cr -> 60.000$)
>versus the average GDP of under 3000$ today, this is no more than 
>a car theft (assuming that the ship is not new). And we know how 
>serious the police are about car theft today :-) They routinly call
>in the military to get these thieves, just like the IN is taking care
>of the pirates. (sarcasme intended ;-)

No, a MCr 15 ship is worth 1 000 times per capita income on a TL15 world.
Per capita income in the industrialised West is about US$20 000, so the
equivalent is more like $20 million.

Last I looked, the military did tend to get called out when someone nicks a
747, even a 20 year old one in poor condition.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 23:40:48
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: More toys from Ditzie

'Famile Spofulam Releases New Laser Turrets'

'Enigmatic business tycoon, Hengabar Sofulam, today released the latest
release from Famile Spofulam's High Energy Solution labs - the Signature
class X-ray lasers.

The weapons, a TL13 rapid-fire X-ray lasers, are designed to fit into
Imperial standard 3 and 6 dton turrets, and are capable of firing at a rate
of 24 shots per minute, and are capable of sustained, accurate fire out to
500 000 km.

The turrets include beam pointers and a crewstation, and are designed to
slot directly into an appropriately sized turret socket.

The first is a 200 megajoule laser unit, and masses 47.75 t and is quoted
at costing MCr 2.2, including the 3 dton turret. The second is a 650
megajoule laser unit, massing 115.5t and costing MCr 3.1, including the
6dton turret.

Hengabar's neice, Ditzammer Spofulam, met with reporters after
demonstrating the lighter weapon by carving her initials in a X-tek XTF-4
Delta Fighter at a range of 120 000 km. The demonstation of the heavier
version was terminated after 7.5 seconds fire, as the target had been
turned into plasma by that time.

Her comments were 'Weeeee reckon that if you only have spaceie-wace for one
laser-waser, then it oughta oughta oughta be a good one. Weeee reckon that
the the the baby Signature-wignature can put out as much megajoulage as
eight nooormal civilian laser-wasers, an an an can solve most
problem-woblems'.

The Imperial Ministry of Justice has issued a temporary restraining order
against sale of the heavier model to civilians. It is understoof Famile
Spofulam's legal team are planning an appeal.'

****************************************************************************
*******

The 200 MJ laser has a damage value of 51 (2.5 cm of superdense), while the
650 MJ laser has a DV of 92 (4 cm of superdense). Both have a minimum delay
between shots of 2.5 seconds - eight times the RoF of a 'standard'
shipboard laser. Precise ratings depend on the combat system you use, and
the RoF your power plant can maintain.

These babies burn up a lot of power - you need [MJ/(0.65*delay)] megawatts
to keep shooting them. Note that you can reduce the output of the laser to
increase the rate of fire, which could be important when using them in a
point defense role.

The cost is actually dominated by the 500 000km beam pointer, which could
be cut down to 50 000km by cheapskates.

Note that one of these lasers is, in general, as effective as 8 lasers at
the 'standard' rate of fire of a shot every 20 seconds. Lots of luck
powering the big laser at maximum RoF though (370 MW ... ouch).

At TL13, they are very cutting edge for the early Imperium, but are
technically obsolescent by the 1100s.

****************************************************************************
****

I've done a TL12 plasma bazooka, and a TL12 400 MJ plasma gun, but I'm too
tired for more typing.

Ditzie wants me to note that the Main Plasma Gun fits in her new toy ...
Uncie Hengie got worried about Gravitic Sensors, and asked Ditzie to build
a TL12 battlefield helicopter.

Ditzie thinks it will fly ... it mounts a 400 MJ plasma gun and a
starship-grade sandcaster, and is entirely powered by fuel cells ... and
thus is completely invisible to gravitic sensors. 

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:41:46 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: G:T ship design questions

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:23:55 -0500
From: Christopher Pratt <valen@gatecom.com>
Subject: Re: G:T ship design questions
Hello all
My first questions concerns armor for ships.
I know how to add armor to a ship, but how much armor should
a ship.
the ships included in the GT book, have vastly varying armor
rates.
for example, the Dragon Class SDB (page 144) has a DR of
1011, ok...its a combat vessel, its supposed to have armor.
The Broadsword class mercenary cruiser (page 139) also a
combat vessel, unless I'm mistaken, has a DR of 100.  quite
a discrepancy.
**************
The Broadsword isnt really a combat vessel, it is an armed transport.


My next problem is with the cost and mass of the armor.
should armor at TL12 cost more and have more mass than the
ships hull?
******************
yes

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:34:56 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

At 11:23 AM 03/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/2/98 11:06:08 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:
>
>>         So, just to be sure I understand what you understand, the nebula
>>  would be "bright" due to excitaiton from the left over white dwarf, yes?
>If
>>  the remnant was reasonably "cool", such as a brown dwarf, then the amount
>of
>>  excitation and therefore luminosity would be negiligible, do you suppose?  
>
>Possibly.  This would never hapen naturally, but then you're not talking
>about a natural occurrence either.  If the stellar core were somehow left
>cold, dark, and slow-rotating, then more than likely there wouldn't be
>anything to illuminate the nebulosity except nearby stars.

        Great...  I can techno-babble the details off if the players every
do find out what the hell happened...  which is *very* doubtful.

>>          Any idea how "wide" the Crab and Veil Nebula are?  If not I am sure
>>  I can find it on the web...  
>
>According to my copy of Burnham's, the Crab has an apparent age of about
>900 years and is about 6 light-years in diameter.  The Veil Nebula is much
>older, maybe 20,000 years old.  It forms the visible segments of the so-called
>"Cygnus Loop," which may be about 70 light-years in diameter.  That should
>give you some idea of what sizes are reasonable. . .
>

        Again, Jon, thanks very much for the excellent information!  Very
big help to me.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:57:46 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network

At 12:46 03/12/1998 -0700, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>
>Yeah, how do you buy, for instance, 100 shares of Tukera? Perhaps you
>buy either local shares only, _or_ you buy into a mutual fund model,
>where trading is done on the local level on behalf of the fund, which
>may be administered on the subsector or sector level. Still it implies
>an almost complete independence on the part of local fund managers. 
>
>(Trav plot: Now what was the name of that currency trader who caused
>that bank in England to fail?...;-)
>
IIRC - Nick Leeson

The guy I know who used to work for Bearings (in a UK division)
and was at the time facing no job and a significant dent in his
earnings for the year had some relief when I brought back a
poster featuring Nick's new home (Changi Jail) :-)

(I believe his annual bonus was paid and in any case he's back
to earning unreasonably vast sums from another company.)

However the point is relevant.

If each company's shares can only be traded at the system of its
registered HQ, then you must be allowed to send Mr Nick with
MCr800 to that system to trade how he wishes.

Now you don't need to talk with Mr Nick, except to receive annual
accounts and give (or receive) suitcases stuffed with ImpCr or the
electronic fund transfer equivalent. :-)
So you might think that you don't need the fast X-boats.

But what about those people who trade in YOUR shares?

They cannot trade with Mr Nick because its not your registered HQ.
Now you could set up Mr Nick as a separate limited company (possibly
a good idea as it turned out) but either you don't own the shares to
Nick Sharetrader plc (which means you've just thrown away MCr800)
or you do (which means that news that when Mr Nick loses MCr800
your share price is hit).

So someone is going to want to know what's going on several systems
away and is going to be able to make money from more up to date info.

Or there is no interstellar trade.

My only contention is that assuming that everone has lots of J-6
couriers standing around waiting for that vital message does not
work and that an optimised J-6 network would exist between
major planets with other planets taking feeds from those planets.

IMO:
Since the OTU has an inefficient X-boat network with J-4 ships
with no manoeuvre drives used for J-1 hops to meet couriers
then there has to be a reason. Maybe it was reasonable when setup
(but I disagree with that) but clearly someone is keeping the
X-boats inefficient now.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 05:34:04 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Spinal Mount sized Bays

I'd say you'd could do something like this.........

Take some of your original bays, merge them into a single unit, and 
build a big honking weapon in them.  You wouldn't be using a bay 
anymore, since it would be unable to move, so you basically have a 
spinal now.  Use any other bays and sny cargo space for extra power 
generation.  Actually, this might be closer to being a parallel mount 
than a spinal.  

Re reducing the size of a spinal mount, maybe not, seems its mount would 
be integral to the structure of the ship, so even if you did reduce the 
size, you'd gain little in more space, due to maintaining structural 
integrity.  Course, if extra space is not your concern, and you just 
want to swap that old PAW for a newer and smaller MG, go ahead.

Jim Clem

- ----Original Message Follows----
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:56:26 EST
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Spinal Mount sized Bays
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

	
	I had a question for the list...

	I realize that once a ship has been built, it's spinal mount cannot be
changed (or made larger; not sure about smaller).  However, what about ships
that never had a spinal mount installed when built?  You could not put one in
later...but since bays are no longer limited to just 50 and 100 tons, why
can't you put a spinal-mount sized weapon in a custom designed bay?  This
gives low-tech ships a chance of possibly being given a form of SLEP to keep
it competitive (at least somewhat) as opposed to building a whole new class of
vessels.

	Is this possible and legit, or is it simply pure rules-lawyering?

	DustyLV769


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:40:48 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: GT Gunship

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 15:17:04 -0500
From: Christopher Pratt <valen@gatecom.com>
Subject: GT Gunship
Hello all
This is my first design for a GT starship.  I started with a
50 ton cutter and eventually made it into a gunship/honking
big fighter.  since this is my first attempt at designing a
GT ship, I not too concerned with viability or realism of
design (though those comments are welcome) I am mostly
concerned with getting my math right.  I have created the
larval form of a spreadsheet for help in constructing this
ship, If you want a copy lemme know and i'll mail it out.
on with the ship
50 Ton SL hull. DR200 with basic stealth and emissions
cloaking.
*************
More DR?

Modules
     Basic Bridge
     Engineering
     2 Hull mounted Missile racks
     4 Staterooms
     1250cf of cargo space
     15 Maneuver Drive Units
     1 Turret w/ 2 360MJ lasers and one sandcaster
Statistics:
**********
you have 5 weapons here when only 3 are allowed. my suggestion, drop the
turret and go with hull mounted weapons.


     Emass: 205.7455
     Lmass: 218.2455
     Cost: 15.34882 MCr
     Hit points: 9750
Performance:
     Acceleration: 2.91g
     Jump: 0 (no jump drive installed)
     Air speed: 2483
NOTE: final cost includes a full load of missiles (154) and
sand canisters (200)
comments...please point out any errors I may have made and
let me know what you think
****************
using the standard format would manke the ship easier to read and comment
on. consider making this as a heavy fighter instead, use a cockpit, cut the
staterooms, bring the ship above 6 Gs. and add as much armor as you can
still keeping accel.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:44:57 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: GT - Xboat Tender

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:52:16 -1000
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT - Xboat Tender
 1000ton Xboat Tender                        Tech Level 10
 Specifications:
**************
Using the standard format would make this easier to read and comment on.


 1000ton Unstreamlined hull, (Heavy Compartmentalisation), Sealed
*********
what stats did you use for the hull?



 Weaponry:
 10 external turret hardpoints
************
10?...why so many?



 Crew:
 0 x Command       1 x Engineering  0 x Troops
 1 x Helm          0 x Gunnery      0 x Science/Lab
 1 x Navigation    0 x Stewards     0 x Flight
 2 x Commo/Sensor  0 x Medical
 0 x Screens       0 x Computer     Total Crew = 5
***************
no extras for the xboats? engineering, spare flight crew?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 06:55:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

Alan Bradley wrote:

> Could Planetary forces be used for expansionism?  Well, the Imperium tends
> to frown on large power blocs forming within its territory, but there are
> worlds that are colonies of other imperial worlds, (eg:
> Garda-Vilis/Tanoose).  Presumably it happens sometimes.  The key is
> probably the pragmatic political excuses used, and the political situation.

Actually, looking at the survey data there are a fair number of colonial
worlds, 'owned' by other worlds. In the core sectors of the Imperium, one must
assume a fair number of these are long-term multi-world polities.

Also, The Imperium will only discourage things that threaten its own power. A
Sector Duchess, who controls five or ten worlds is not a threat. She can call
herself the Queen of the Freedonian Empire; the Imperium doesn't care, so long
as she maintains her fealty to the Emperor, and, probably more important, pays
her taxes on time, and doesn't hassle the major corporations with excessive
trade regulations. (NOTE: I said _major_ corporations. The Imperium will allow
almost unlimited hassling of the little guys, like PC's, as they're too small
to matter. If you start hassling Tukera, OTOH, very soon an Imperial Fleet is
paying a visit...and Tukera will stop, which means your economy tanks.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:18:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: alpha centauri

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>
>>There is a general feeling that the presence of multiple stars in a system
>>might disrupt the planet-formation process, unless the stars are very close
>>or very distant - but this is a vague theoretical idea; observationally, 
>>binary systems seem to have more protoplanetary disks and close gas-giant
>>planets (the only kind we can detect) than one might expect.
>
> There is an article in AJ 1997 vol 113 number 4 p.1445-1450 by
> Wiegert & Holman that is a numerical simulation of orbits in the
> Alpha Centauri system.

> The conclusion is that a single planet on a circular orbit is
> unstable over much of the region around central Alpha Centauri
> binary. However, there are zones in which such a planet could be
> stablw over million year time scales. These zones are located both
> far from the binary (a>= 70AU) or near the binary or secondary
> (a<=3AU). The semimajor axis between the two are 23AU. So there could
> most defenitly be planets around the system.

However, for *life* it would seem that you need orbits stable on
*billion* year time scales. <sigh>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:04:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: External armament pods (was Re: Dumber than Mud (OT))

In mail you write:

> To bring this kicking and screaming back to traveller;  I've always wanted
> to mount missiles on the outside of my fighters...kind of like contemporary
> aircraft.  That also leads to mounting external missile 'pods' on just
> about any craft in the traveller inventory.  Aside from decreasing
> acceleration performance (significantly in some cases) what is wrong with
> this tactic?

Frankly, given that it's *impossible* to give a fighter enough armor to
matter, I think that the standard design for fighters *not* intended to
enter atmosphere would be a central support "spar" (sort of like the
triangular trusses to be used in the International Space Station). You
have the engines, cockpit, and weapons systems off of this. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:15:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Survey Speeds

In mail you write:

> At 09:50 PM 03/12/98, you wrote:
>>Well, most of this depends on how well-surveyed a system has to be before
>>you can jump out of it again.
>>
>>If all you need is fuel, a working jump drive, and a computer running
>>Generate, then you could happily do 52 parsecs along a main (200 dton
>>jump-1 ship, 2 spare j-drives, spare power plant, m-drives, computers,
>>extra fuel tankage - when you need maintainence, just switch to the
>>backups. Should be good for a 3 year voyage).
>
>         Hmmm.  There's a smart idea I hadn't thought of....  And I think I
> know exactly which hull I'll use it in.  Thanks, Ian.  Brilliant as always.
>
>>If you need to spend 6 months exhaustivly tracking every planetary body and
>>rogue comet, before ships can jump out of a system, then things are going
>>to be a bit slower.
>
>         So, really the answer is "however-many-you-want" =).  Ok.  So, I'll
> probably go with a mid-range value of 2d weeks per system, modified by any
> astrographical features.  Thanks.

Consider that once you have space based observatories at several AU
from your star, you can accurately determine stellar positions for at
least a dozen or so parsecs with little effort. Heck, a well equipped
*ship* could do it. They'd just need to have the time to move around
many AUs without jump.

Once you have observatories in different *systems (and thus seperated
by one or more parsecs) you can accurately determine stellar positions
for any star in the galaxy that you can see.[1]

Spaceborne telescopes of the size of the ones we have now on the
ground, as well as things like long baseline optical interferometers
will let planets be detected for at least hundreds of parsecs. Gas
giants definitely, and a fair number of the others.

So scouts will *know* where stars are before they jump. They'll also
know if there are gas giants. And have a rough idea of where other
planets may be and what their orbits will be like. 

So what they'll be doing is determining the "exact" planetary sizes, as
well as looking for smaller planets and asteroids. Given that it could
take years to *accurately* determine the orbits of the planets (well
enough to generate the parameters that navigation software will want)
and similar amounts of time to check out various features on the
planets themselves, I expect that things would go like this:

1. A single scout jumps in, and sits there making astronomical
   observations and monitoring radio frequencies. If there's no
   evidence of civilization, he'll keep making observations for a month
   and then jump back "home". If there is some evidence of
   civilization, he'll either try to make contact, or record things and
   jump back home.

2. If the scout *doesn't* return on time, the service sets a warning
   flag for the system, and sends in a *pair* of much more covert
   scouts. One stays stealthy in the outer system and watches the
   other, while staying ready to jump out *immediately* if anything odd
   happens.
   Most of the time they just rescue the first scout from a
   malfunction. Less often, they recover the remains after a ship
   malfunction. And in rare instances, the first scout either
   misjumped, or otherwise disappeared. The ship hiding in the outer
   system is in a position to observe the first ship's entry and exit
   flashes, and possibly any distress messages beamed towards the
   previous system. In *really* rare instances, the system harbors
   hostile aliens, in which case at least one of the second set set of
   ships is going to escape.
 
2. Once a "First-In" scout has done the initial survey, the system is
   scheduled for a follow-up. This will be done by a large group (small
   flotilla?) of ships which will spend several years mapping the
   planets, pinning down orbital data, searching for other
   planets/asteroids in the system, and actually doing
   geological/biological surveys of the planets and asteroids.

3. After the follow-up is done, the new inf will be added to the
   official databases. 

But in any case, the main factor slowing system surveys is that anyone
trying to make a systematic survey *has* to set things up so that if a
ship is lost, they know *where* it got lost. That's why step 1 is set
up the way it is. The "home" system may merely have a temporary base in
it, or a follow-up group. But by being due back at a certain time, the
risks are lowered and thus you don't wind up waiting six months, and
then spending a year searching, only to find out that the ship got
nailed in the first system it visited. 

>>You may also have 'rogue' free traders expanding Known Space without
>>government knowledge or permission (this was one of the things that caused
>>technology to leak out of the Ziru Sirkaa, possibly to the Terrans).
>
>         This is what is happening in the last 1/2 history IMTU....  "Beyond
> Frontier" region which ought not to be settled, but is in some places.

I'd say that the IISS will accept reports from free traders and the
like who've explored beyond the "surveyed" areas. If a trader reports
something interesting, the IISS might even send a follow-up based
solely on his info without sending a First-In scout. And as long as
things check out, having explored it first yourself may even entitled
you to special status with regards to filing claims. 

I don't think they'd be quite as happy if you initiate first contact
with a spacefaring culture. Pre-space cultures they problably don't
mind too much, as long as you didn't botch things and leave them with a
mess to straighten out. 

If I expanded the above, plus some of my other ideas into a "How the
IISS survey works" document, would folks be interested? 

[1] With a 2 AU baseline, we can determine distances out to at least a
dozen parsecs. At *one* parsec, we are dealing with distances 100,000
times the length of our baseline. So if our baseline is a parsec, then
we can determine distances that are more than 100,000 parsecs. Which is
somewhat more than the distance to the other side of the galaxy. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1240
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, December 4 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1241



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Re Life in other systems, B5
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: alpha centauri
Ship Design Conversion Guidelines
re: alpha centauri
Re: Jump-6 courier networks
re: Courier Networks
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Fast Couriers
Extended System Data: Barnard's Star (circa First Contact)
Re: Re Life in other systems, B5
Re: More toys from Ditzie
Re: Re Life in other systems, B5
Re: Astrogaphy Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:25:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re Life in other systems, B5

In mail you write:

> Alpha and Beta are much closer... but I don't recall HOW close. Combine the
> gravitational sweeping of beta, the radiance flux on orbit, tidal stresses,
> and the nature of system formation (IE, did they form at their distance, or
> did beta fall in towards alpha), and you start to be able to figure whether
> liquid water exists. Liquid water is a requisite for LIFE AS WE KNOW IT...
> there may be other  forms, but who can tell till we encounter them?

As I recall, one of Asimov's science essays dealt with what life would
be like on earth if we had a double star. Based on the Alpha Centauri
system he placed the second star out at about Uranus's orbit. 

He calculaterd that it wouldn't affect Earth's temperature noticeably.
But that it would give as much light as the full moon (?) at closest
approach. But it'd still be a point of light.

If anybody can track down the specific essay and which of his books it
was collected in, I think it'd be a good reference for the list.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 07:04:45 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:19:24 +1000, "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
> >> Again, the point that someone can "afford" it shows nothing.  Weither
> >> their is enough news that can wait a certain amount of time, but
> >> looses significant money if it wait 33% longer, is debatable.
> 
> >IMHO, people have got fixated on the stock market model.  Think: Media.
> 
> >Ok, so you own the Regina Post and I own the Regina News.  I get my news
> >reports two months before you do.  By the time you get it, it is worth
> >precisely nothing.  I make giga-bucks, you go out of business.
> 
> Well, is this going to be enough to support an entire X-boat
> kind of distribution system?  How much are they willing to pay?
> I don't see it myself and we are talking non-Trivial amount
> of money.

Uhhh, David, I think you underestimate the power of the Media. We're talking
things like, oh, sayyy, Disney + Sony + CNN + Dow Jones + Murdoch, Inc. rolled
into one. On an Imperium-wide scale, so its them times several thousand. 

Have you _any_ clue on the profit margins Disney makes??? We _ARE_ talking a
non-trivial amount of money here. Easily enough to support these kinds of
rapid couriers. We _are_ talking about megacorps like Makhidkarun, here. You
know, one of the ones that used to run a third of Known Space, a long time ago?

We're talking big, here, really REALLY big here.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:15:12 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:

>
>>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>>Subject: Re: Fast Couriers
>If Oslo is anything like every other major city I've visited, it is going
>to have at least two major newspapers. It has to be a pretty sad town
>(Hobart, Fairbanks) to have only one provincial newspaper.

Oslo has several newspapers, 4 or 5 tv stations. I was referring to
smaller than pop worlds in that last sentence. Pop 6 and over will be
so large that it will be the local news that dominate. Intersellar news
will only trickle in at 1 to 2 messages a day. 

>>But still, it isn't to many who are interested in news from more than a couple
>>of tens of miles from there home. How many of you americans or australians 
>>follow european news regulary? How many of us europeans follow american news?  
>>And does anybody follow news from Africa, except for africans?
>>
>
>I'm a news junkie, although I admit I dont know for sure who the Norwegian
>government is (I think the Social Democrats are in, but I'm not 100%
>certain). But I follow German politics reasonably closely, and I am sure
>you can find Norwegian Greens who know the name Bob Brown.

Its currently a joint venture between the Christian Democrats, the Centerparty
(former Farmers party) and the Left party (liberals). They have like 25% of
the seats in the Storting and rule because the other parties, Workers Party
(social democrats) 35%, The Right Party 25%, the Progress Party 20%, can't agree
on anything. Its a very wierd situation were the Regjering (the three parties in
Governmental position) is get support from case to case.

>Jump-6 TL 15 couriers are cheaper in FFS2. Most designs crunch out to about
>MCr 150, including maneuver drives and some cargo space.
>
>What trade is there between Germany and America that they couldnt produce
>themselves ?

You can not compare two 8 billion populations with two 300 million populations.
What is it the Earth needs to import that we can not produce ourself? 

>Interstellar trade works because of novelty and economies of scale.

But what is it that Mora produce that Regina can't produce themself. With 8
billion citizens, fusion, strong force manipulation, I really don't see what
Mora can offer Regina, or Regina can offer Mora. Regina is short on raw
materials, you can be sure that Mora is that also, so they both import their 
raw materials from som close bye mining world. So Regina (or Mora) is most
interested in what goes on on their own world, and with 8 billion people around
there is enough going on there to insure that Regina news, tri-vids, magazines
etc. are dominating the home market.

Now on a pop 5 mining world it is totally different, as there is not enough
people to make newspapers, tri-vids, refrigarators etc. so they import what they
need. But their needs are not enough to justify a J6 -Xboat network. At least
not in my view :-)

>>Why would anybody on Glisten be interested in what goes on
>>on Mora? There is enough going on on Glisten to fill every newspaper to the
>>brim. You assume that all citizens on Glisten will have an interest in Mora.
>
>About 0.1% of them is about 10 million customers ... even better economics
>if you assume that rich people are more interested in what happens elsewhere.

But you still havn't answered why the rich people is interested in what 
happens elsewhere? To take a bizarre eksample. A norwegian cheesemanufacturer
is using only norwegian raw materials (importing would be to expencive), his
market is Norway (I can't even supply the need on this market). This
manufacturer is not going to be interested in general news from around the
world. He want's the news that affect him personally, and those news are 
norwegian and mainly about the cheesemarket in norway.

No this xample is bizarre because norway is such a small society that we could
argue that there would be competition from the outside, cheaper raw materials
outside norway and so on. But scaling this up to Regina you have such a large
soceity that he'll have enough keeping track on what is happening on Regina
to worry about Mora. Again in my maybe not so correct view :-) 

>When you are dealing with MCr 150 assets with four (count em) crew, the
>other expenses tend to drift slowly into the background compared to ponying
>up the cost of the ships.

But what is the general cost of living for these people. The administrators
that run the network, the building that the HQ is in. The cost of setting up
offices where the customers deliver thier messages. The web-servers, the
buildings these webservers are in. The technical staff to keep these on-line
rental of phone lines, permits, advertising. How can you be sure that this
is not going to be a significant sum.

>Unfortunatly, the Spinward Marches are completely dominated by a handful of
>high-population, high technology worlds.

Yes, population, politics, military and ecomonics are dominated by the large
worlds. But that doesn't necessarelly mean that they are very interested in what
goes on outside the atmosphere on the world. 

>I'd prefer having the highest population in the Marches at about 100
>million. Blame Marc Miller for making population on a log bell curve, and
>not fixing the die rolls correctly for the Marches back in the good old days.

Well, the Imperium is in my view not a good place to make good adventures, at
least not when it is the way Steve, Hans and you portray. Sorry :-) but I don't
like it that way. You have no marigin for human stupidity or error. Every thing
is streamlined to the upmost efficency, everything is rational to the extreme,
and infaluble. Just look at the "Dumber than mud (OT)"-thread. There is in my
view going to be 99% self centered sapien beings in the Imperium, each driving
towards his own goal. That spells chaos to me, not order and perfection. 

>>Say there is a warrant out for a smuggler. The warrant is sent out
>>by xboat. Is it sent out in all directions, or in the most likly direction
>>that the smuggler has gone? When reaching a system, does it automaticly 
>>go with the next x-boat out, or is it up to the starport sheriff to
>>send it on? If it is sent on automaticly and the starport sheriff
>>has arrested the smuggler what then?   
>>
>
>Goes into the starport computer, gets cross-checked with the arrest list
>and sent on. How do the Norwegian police handle 'Wanted' lists, anyway ?

But is it handled manually. Is it completly automatic or is someone set to
verify it. What if the crime the guy is wanted for is not a crime on this world?
What I was asking for was an oppurtinity to have the Starport Sheriff not
getting around to verifying the warrent, so that it misses the X-boat out, and
has to wait for the next. This gives the criminals (and PC's) some chance of
getting away from a warrent.

>>Why? With an average GDP of 15000Cr (at 4$ per Cr -> 60.000$)
>>versus the average GDP of under 3000$ today, this is no more than 
>>a car theft (assuming that the ship is not new). And we know how 
>>serious the police are about car theft today :-) They routinly call
>>in the military to get these thieves, just like the IN is taking care
>>of the pirates. (sarcasme intended ;-)
>
>No, a MCr 15 ship is worth 1 000 times per capita income on a TL15 world.
>Per capita income in the industrialised West is about US$20 000, so the
>equivalent is more like $20 million.

A car today can cost 200.000$ easily (an expensive one, but say it is a boat for
sake of argument). In USA the GDP per citizen is 28.600$. The average GDP per
citizen of the world is more like say 2.800$. So assuming that Regina has
approximatly the same numbers, a well established (but not rich reginian)  would
have a GDP per citizen of say 150.000Cr (10 times the average GDP per citizen of
the world). So the car could cost 1.5MCr to be an equivalent of a 200.000$.

Would the military be sent out (with Orion planes, figates and like)
to hunt down a guy who steals something like a 2M$ boat? 

>Last I looked, the military did tend to get called out when someone nicks a
>747, even a 20 year old one in poor condition.

What about my economical reasoning above don't you approve of ?

>Ian Whitchurch
>
>

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:19:41 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: alpha centauri

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>> The conclusion is that a single planet on a circular orbit is
>> unstable over much of the region around central Alpha Centauri
>> binary. However, there are zones in which such a planet could be
>> stablw over million year time scales. These zones are located both
>> far from the binary (a>= 70AU) or near the binary or secondary
>> (a<=3AU). The semimajor axis between the two are 23AU. So there could
>> most defenitly be planets around the system.
>
>However, for *life* it would seem that you need orbits stable on
>*billion* year time scales. <sigh>

But the timescales that long hasn't been explored yet, so one can hope
that a orbit stable over a million years will be stable a thousand times that
long. And this simulation is also only circular orbits taken with 15 degrees 
inclination steps (0, 15, 30, 60... degrees inclination). So it is by no means
extencive enough to give to many answers, but it could provide som clues.

>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:35:04 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Ship Design Conversion Guidelines

I'm looking to add conversion systems to my ship design software, but
don't have the time/experience to design the conversion rules, so I
thought I'd throw this out as a topic for general discussion.

I'd like to expand QSDS (and FFS when released) to include as many output
rules as possible. The program currently designs ships for T4. I'd like to
include ship control sheets for Full Thrust (because some people use that
for ship combat).  I think it would also be useful to write up the design
for other rulesets; for example, GURPS and High Guard. 

I understand that the conversions wouldn't be strictly 'canon' in the
other rules - a T4 ship is differently designed than a GT ship. What I
want is something that describes the T4 design in GT terms, so a referee
who is _not_ a gearhead could use the ship without learning T4 rules.

The Full Thrust conversions would be easier, in the sense that AFAIK no
Traveller group uses the Full Thrust rules to design their Traveller ships.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:25:43 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: alpha centauri

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
However, for *life* it would seem that you need orbits stable on
*billion* year time scales. <sigh>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
OK, so no native life. Now we just need a planet that was stable
for 400,000 years, so Grandfather and his kids could have terraformed
it and imported something interesting.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:38:52 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier networks

Steven Hudson writes:

>>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1232
>...
>>Well, if someone else alleges something, it is up to them to
>>support it.  Also, I have never claimed that they were uneconomic.
>>I claimed that the existance of a jump-6 X-boat like network
>>is hardly automatic based on the setting.
> 
>  You allege that such a business would be unlikely -  is that supported?

In a sense it is. I imagine that the logic goes something like this: If
jump-6 message traffic was profitable, it would exist. Since canon states
that all message traffic goes by the X-boat network (at an average of 2.6
parsecs/week!), jump-6 message traffic does not exist. Therefor it cannot
be profitable.

I think that it is so obvious that speedy information would be worth a lot,
but I can't prove it, and I don't feel the need, because I also think it
obvious that the statement that all message traffic goes at a top speed of
2.6 parsecs/week cannot be true. At the very least the Navy would want a
better service than that and IMO the Imperial Bureaucracy would piggyback
on whatever system the Navy used.

But that dosen't mean I think that a jump-6 network would necessarily be
as extensive as the X-boat system. Indeed, since I would like to retain
the X-boat system for the background (though I would love to have it
redone in a more rational way), I must assume that it isn't. Nor is that
quite unbelievable. For one thing, the X-boats are cheaper and faster
for short distances. IMO the most likely setup would be a long-range and
a short-range system set up to supplement each other.


David P. Summers writes:

>Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:19:24 +1000, "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
>>Ok, so you own the Regina Post and I own the Regina News.  I get my news
>>reports two months before you do.  By the time you get it, it is worth
>>precisely nothing.  I make giga-bucks, you go out of business.
> 
>Well, is this going to be enough to support an entire X-boat kind of
>distribution system?

It might be, but why raise the point at all since no-one is proposing an
X-boat kund of distribution system? What we have been talking about is a
much smaller system that links a limited number of major systems (300 or
so sector and subsector capitals plus a few extra along the way).

Tommy Grav writes:

>On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
>>Ok, so you own the Regina Post and I own the Regina News.  I get my news
>>reports two months before you do.  By the time you get it, it is worth
>>precisely nothing.  I make giga-bucks, you go out of business.
> 
>But look at what we have today. Most norwegain newspapers consists almost
>enterily of norwegian news, some european news, and few from other places (the
>big big news and some funny stuff) I think that you'll get planetary
>"newspapers", who really cares what goes on a parsec away anyway. There is
>enough happening on the planet anyway. In smaller population, there won't be 
>place for two papers anyway.

A world with a population that low wouldn't be on the network anyway.
 
>But still, it isn't to many who are interested in news from more than a couple
>of tens of miles from there home. How many of you americans or australians 
>follow european news regulary? How many of us europeans follow american news?  
>And does anybody follow news from Africa, except for africans?

Well, if you have a world with 10 billion inhabitants and 1 in a hundred is
willing to pay a credit a day for good 'far-off events' coverage, you are
grossing MCr36,500 per year... 

Tommy Grav writes:

>Hold your horses a bit here. Now you see this has become confussing to me.
>First we were talking about a extencive J6 - X-boatish network that would 
>carry information (mail,news etc.) throughout the Imperium, now were down to
>an express route between four worlds.

If Steven can show that a network linking the most important worlds in one
sector to the sector capital is plausible it would go a long way to show
that a network linking that sector capital to the neighboring capital makes
sense too, wouldn't you say? And if you link that sector capital to the
major worlds of that sector and to the sector capitals of neighboring
sectors, pretty soon you have an Imperium wide network. Not, to be sure, an
extensive X-boatish network, but then, I don't think Steven propose doing
away with the X-boat network, merely the notion that the X-boats would be
the fastest means of communication available.
 
>Second. Your using a HG-ship. Whats its cost? I don't own HG, so I can't
>easily find this out. Since I'm a FFS-guy myself how does the prices compare?

Relying only on (my memory of) information posted a few days ago, a HG jump-6
courier costs MCr155 while it costs less than a third of that by FF&S rules. 

>This is were you miss some of my views. We have four worlds of over 8 billion 
>TL F citizens each. What do you trade between these worlds that they can't
>produce themself?

Well, in the 18th Century you had England and half a world away you had
India and China. What did they trade between these countries that they
could not produce themselves?

>Why would anybody on Glisten be interested in what goes on on Mora? There is
>enough going on on Glisten to fill every newspaper to the brim. You assume
>that all citizens on Glisten will have an interest in Mora.

Not all. In fact, propably not all that many. But we do have canonical
evidence that some people do care what goes on on other worlds. Otherwise
the TNS wouldn't exist.

>I'm not even sure that one citizen on Glisten would give a rats ass about
>what goes on on Mora.

I am.

>You see. You can find the number that is needed to support the network
>(although your numbers lack the expences for other expences than building
>the ships, maintaining them and crewing them),

I didn't check out Steven's figures, but if he is using _TCS_ figures for
maintenance you can be quite sure that ALL expenses are accounted for
several times over.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:45:04 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Courier Networks

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Why would a courier leaving every 7.5-8 days not be as reliable?
Sure, they're only point-to-point (although messages could then be
handed off to the X-Boats to save some time) but within that limit
they operate under the same constraints as X-Boats. The customer
knows that the ship leaves on day X, and lives with it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I said earlier, when your fast courier service is dedicated to
point-to-point service, you won't have any (or many) problems
with reliability. Once you add hubs and nexi, you will start having
problems with missed connections. If your courier leaves every week,
then missing a connection by a day will cost you a week of time.
Not just there, but at every hub where a connection was missed.
The delays will add, even multiply in effect.
The X-Boat network can avoid this problem by having enough ships
to leave daily, or even more often - cutting delays from missed
connections drastically. The X-Boat system is slower, but the 
true speed of messages will reliably remain very, very close to the
average speed - thus the higher reliability. A smaller network of
high-jump weekly couriers may have a much higher maximum speed
of messages, but will have less ability to guarantee that any given
message (except messages travelling directly along a point-to-point
priority route) is actually travelling that fast - or travelling at all.

I agree there is a niche for point-to-point high jump courier routes,
but I see them as complementing the X-Boat system. Eventually
the X-Boat system may be improved to the point that the niche
market ceases to exist. Of course, if the wealthy people who might
fund such improvements already have such service available, why
would they improve what everyone else uses?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:17:39 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> wrote:

> Was the Tigress the BB with a whole lot of fighters, as well? I've only
> seen that particular book once, and like a fool I didn't buy it (being a
> _Space Opera_ player in those days). I've always had this suspicion that a
> lot of pro BR arguments use the Tigress as the BB example because it's not
> an optimal design.

The Fighting Ships writeup for the Tigress gave it thirty squadrons of heavy
fighters.  It's probably the traditional BB example because it's the biggest
BB in Fighting Ships, at 500000 tons.  As a design concept, I think it looks
like a cross between a fleet carrier and a 300000 ton BB.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:43:24 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

>But still, it isn't to many who are interested in news from more than a couple
>of tens of miles from there home. How many of you americans or australians
>follow european news regulary? How many of us europeans follow american news?
>And does anybody follow news from Africa, except for africans?


Well, some of us do, at least (gotta love the World Radio Network :-). The
idea is that if there are enough someones, then they can support a network
*at least* to the major, high-population worlds. Besides, we are not just
speaking about news, but _media_. Motion pictures, holovids, computer
games, books, magazines, and the like. The corporation that gets any of
these types of media to the market first is the one that is likely to make
huge amounts of money.


>The problem is that there is quite possibly a local competitor that is going
>to have a much more easily sold product than you (in the news business) as
>people tend to be very self-centered.


For a certain population (abeit, possibly a small percentage), exotic
off-world stuff is going to be very attractive. YMMV, of course, but IMHO
this certain population would be large enough to support a high-capacity
jump network *at least* between the major worlds.

[Of course, it seems to me unreasonable to assume that the Imperial Navy
will have anything less than J6 couriers; and with information being a
dense as it is, I cannot think of a reason why other organs of the Imperial
state would not  piggyback on this network. As I wrote, YMMV.]

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:48:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Extended System Data: Barnard's Star (circa First Contact)

The following is the extended system I generated for Barnard's Star 
at the point of First Contact, for the Project: StarRise campaign.  I 
welcome any comments and flames, although I must admit that I prefer 
constructive criticism.  :)

Barnard's Star/Ikugi

Prim  Barnard's Star          M5 V
0     Barnard I               Y000210-A     Research Lab

1     Barnard II              Y000113-9

2     Barnard III             Y000000-0

3     Barnard IV              Large GG
   2  Ring System             YR00000-0
   7  Barnard IV-A            Y423000-0
  10  Barnard IV-B            Y828000-0
  20  Barnard IV-C/Ikugi      E200312-A     Mainworld; Research Lab
  25  Barnard IV-D            Y320000-0
  35  Barnard IV-E            Y600000-0
  45  Barnard IV-F            Y450000-0
  50  Barnard IV-G            Y551000-0

4     Barnard V               Large GG
   2  Ring System             YR00000-0
   7  Barnard V-A             YS00000-0
   9  Barnard V-B             HS00115-9
  10  Barnard V-C             Y200000-0
  35  Barnard V-D             Y631000-0
  40  Barnard V-E             Y511000-0
  45  Barnard V-F             Y700000-0

5     Barnard VI              Large GG
   8  Barnard VI-A            H300000-0
   9  Barnard VI-B            Y300000-0
  40  Barnard VI-C            G501262-A    Research Lab
  45  Barnard VI-D            Y500114-9
  65  Barnard VI-E            Y300000-0

6     Barnard VII             Small GG
   1  Ring System             YR00000-0
  30  Barnard VII-A           Y433000-0
  35  Barnard VII-B           Y510100-9
  40  Barnard VII-C           Y100000-0
  50  Barnard VII-D           Y410000-0
  55  Barnard VII-E           G540000-0

Basic Library Data:

Sharushiid has a processing plant at Barnard IV-C (Ikugi), where it 
is processing the lanthanum ore from the first and second planetoid 
belts.  Sharushiid is performing some research on new refining 
techniques, using the abundant sources in the newly discovered 
Ikugi system.  The original belters came in and began to establish 
the processing plant approximately ten years ago (circa late 2086AD.)

Due to the sensitive nature of the project, Sharushiid has 
constructed a small monitoring station on moons about each of the 
four gas giants in the outer system.  (These are located at V-B, VI-D 
and VII-B, as well as at the Ikugi base itself.)

Two years ago (late 2094AD), a small colony was established by 
Sharushiid at VI-C purportedly to conduct colonization research.  The 
original monitoring station at VI-A was abandoned, and moved to VI-D 
to protect the colony, as well.

The original VII outpost at VII-E was abandoned last year due to 
recent seismic activity, and was re-established at VII-B.  If the 
seismic activity settles, the company may choose to reactivate the 
original site.

The nomenclature used does not reflect either of the canonical 
systems mentioned in LBB 6: Scouts or MT ImpEnc.  Such systems were 
developed during the latter part of the Interstellar Wars and the 
Rule of Man.

Terran dates are used for reference herein, as I do not have the 
materials available here at work to generate the Vilani dates as 
well.

Thank you for your time.  I look forward to input from my valued 
colleagues here on the TML.
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:10:02 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Re Life in other systems, B5

In a similar vein, I was wondering what the effect of a large celestial
body would have on the human body.  Many mainworlds seem to be moons of gas
giants, Regina is one, and based on the effect that the moon has on the
human body, I wonder what effect that type of environment would have.
Would the incidents of "moon madness" increase, or perhaps would the body
adjust to the forces?

Just wondering.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:07:20 +0800 (SGT)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: More toys from Ditzie

- ---Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
> 
> 'Famile Spofulam Releases New Laser Turrets'
[snip the offensive material]

Oh! how we suffer.  {Little bits of canon fodder all over the place} 
How can we allow zealots like this to spue their personal universe all
over our self-involved lives?  Please censure this activity severely! 
Let's drop this thread now, before a flame war takes out the whole
Internet.  How can my universe or yours remain pure with this type of
post poluting the TML?  Cease! Desist, I say.  Won't someone end the
madness...........








==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4+ ?tg ru++ 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:22:53 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Re Life in other systems, B5

>In a similar vein, I was wondering what the effect of a large celestial
>body would have on the human body.  Many mainworlds seem to be moons of gas
>giants, Regina is one, and based on the effect that the moon has on the
>human body, I wonder what effect that type of environment would have.
>Would the incidents of "moon madness" increase, or perhaps would the body
>adjust to the forces?
>
>Just wondering.
>
>Kurt Feltenberger

What effect does the moon have on the human body (except the added light
during nights and an irresistible craving to go there)? I mean
scientifically proven - not folklore.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:34:42 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Astrogaphy Question

>>A supernova leaves behind an expanding cloud of gas that could be 
>>considered a nebula, but such structures are generally short-lived and
>>not very dense;

>        Define "short lived" and "not very dense" for the less-savvy sorts,
>such as myself.  Thanks!

Short-lived means thousands of years (the Crab remnant is about a 
thousand years old (the supernova was seen on Earth), and I think the Cygnus
structures are several thousand (maybe ten thousand) years old, and beginning
to thin out.

"not very dense" - the gas is actually less dense than the normal interstellar
medium (because it's very hot) - very thin vacuum. The crucial point is that
it's likely to be thin enough to be transparent at most wavelengths (it
glows from flourescence at emission lines of hydrogen or other materials.) 
This is different from the big dense molecular clouds where stars form, which
are nearly opaque due to the large amounts of dust present. (I could be wrong,
though - supernovae and their remnants are not my sepeciality.)

Bruce

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1241
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, December 4 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1242



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Re Life in other systems, B5
Re: Survey Speeds
Extended Duration Survey Vehicle (hopefullly final revision)
Re: G:T or T5
Re: Re Life in other systems, B5
Re: Survey Speeds
re: Courier Networks
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Jump-6 courier network I
Re: Re Life in other systems, B5
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)
Re: Smuggling
Re: Fast Couriers
QSDS1.5 TL15 j6 Blitzen class xboat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:41:40 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)

> >Dragging it back to Trav, here's where those gazillions of credits the
> >IN has at it's disposal can be spent without putting an SDB behind every
> >asteroid throughout known space...Unlike the super-effecient rational
> >naval force that everyone is postulating it to be, they dump the money
> >on large showy ships unsuited to the duties they need to be put to.
> 
>   Like the Kinunir, AHL, and Gazelle? <grumble>

In fleet combats, ships below 3000 dTons (maybe even 5-10,000) are really
of limited use; in High Guard terms, a ship has to have a Computer/9, 
6G maneuver, decent armour, and missile-9 to be more than decorative against
capital ships. So there probably is a strong IN pressure to spend as much
money as possible on the capital ships and heavy escorts, rather than the
sort of 500-1000 ton ship you want lots of to heavily patrol against pirates.

And then look at what the IN does when it finally wants to build a 
1000-ton colonial cruiser for patrol duties: it builds the Kinunirs. 
Gold-plated (with a black globe generator and a pseudo-AI computer), somewhat
slow (a ship in this niche really should have 6 G), and with a weird armament
set (PA turrets.) It probably costs twice what a good escort should and
has half the capability. 

(Before anyone replies, I know the historical reasons why the Kinunir is 
weird, and know that they didn't really build many of them...although
I'm not sure there is a good patrol-ship design in "Fighting Ships"; the
Crysanthemum is really tied to fleet ops, and I can't recall the specs of the
Fer-de-Lance. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:40:48 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

At 15:15 04/12/1998 +0100, tommy.grav@astro.uio.no wrote:
>Oslo has several newspapers, 4 or 5 tv stations. I was referring to
>smaller than pop worlds in that last sentence. Pop 6 and over will be
>so large that it will be the local news that dominate. Intersellar news
>will only trickle in at 1 to 2 messages a day. 

Sell your Reuters shares, there's no money in news. ;-)

>On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:
>>Jump-6 TL 15 couriers are cheaper in FFS2. Most designs crunch out to about
>>MCr 150, including maneuver drives and some cargo space.

MCr150 for 135std in HG, MCr35 from 100std in FFS2, MCR150 for 400std in FFS2

At 15:15 04/12/1998 +0100, tommy.grav@astro.uio.no wrote:
>But what is it that Mora produce that Regina can't produce themself. With 8
>billion citizens, fusion, strong force manipulation, I really don't see what
>Mora can offer Regina, or Regina can offer Mora. Regina is short on raw
>materials, you can be sure that Mora is that also, so they both import their 
>raw materials from som close bye mining world. So Regina (or Mora) is most
>interested in what goes on on their own world, and with 8 billion people
around
>there is enough going on there to insure that Regina news, tri-vids,
magazines
>etc. are dominating the home market.
>
>Now on a pop 5 mining world it is totally different, as there is not enough
>people to make newspapers, tri-vids, refrigarators etc. so they import
what they
>need. But their needs are not enough to justify a J6 -Xboat network. At least
>not in my view :-)
>
Unfortunately if you have TL15, cheap fusion power, etc, you don't have pop 5
mining worlds because all those pop A worlds just strip mine the asteroids and
other planets in their own systems, have all their industry in orbit and
orbital farms as well.

You end up with the only trade being tourists to other planets and the
only material imports are the tourist souvenirs (sold by the TL15
factory to the TL3 world and then sold to the TL15 tourist.)

If eco tourism takes off, the only trade item is wildlife film crews :-)

The assumption in Trav is that there is a market for those pearl handled
FGMP-15s
and hand crafted walnut gearstick knobs.

>>>Why? With an average GDP of 15000Cr (at 4$ per Cr -> 60.000$)
>>>versus the average GDP of under 3000$ today, this is no more than 
>>>a car theft (assuming that the ship is not new). And we know how 
>>>serious the police are about car theft today :-) They routinly call
>>>in the military to get these thieves, just like the IN is taking care
>>>of the pirates. (sarcasme intended ;-)
>>
>>No, a MCr 15 ship is worth 1 000 times per capita income on a TL15 world.
>>Per capita income in the industrialised West is about US$20 000, so the
>>equivalent is more like $20 million.
>
>A car today can cost 200.000$ easily (an expensive one, but say it is a
boat for
>sake of argument). In USA the GDP per citizen is 28.600$. The average GDP per
>citizen of the world is more like say 2.800$. So assuming that Regina has
>approximatly the same numbers, a well established (but not rich reginian)
would
>have a GDP per citizen of say 150.000Cr (10 times the average GDP per
citizen of
>the world). So the car could cost 1.5MCr to be an equivalent of a 200.000$.
>
>Would the military be sent out (with Orion planes, figates and like)
>to hunt down a guy who steals something like a 2M$ boat? 
>
>>Last I looked, the military did tend to get called out when someone nicks a
>>747, even a 20 year old one in poor condition.
>
>What about my economical reasoning above don't you approve of ?
>

You can't do this.

You can't average GDP across Earth and then say that the US government wouldn't
bother.

Consider who in your average country (GDP = 2800) would own a 2M$ boat and then
consider if El Presidente isn't going to use his navy to search for his boat.

(appologies for the obvious cultural slur)

If 15MCr to 1,000 time GDP on a TL15 world then it is equivalent to 28M$ in
USA.

Not forgetting that most Merchant ships in Trav are more than this.

so the 747 comparison is valid.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:45:43 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

>Was the Tigress the BB with a whole lot of fighters, as well? I've only
>seen that particular book once, and like a fool I didn't buy it (being a
>_Space Opera_ player in those days). I've always had this suspicion that a
>lot of pro BR arguments use the Tigress as the BB example because it's not
>an optimal design.

Fighting Ships is an interesting book; useful, but it has canon problems/
internal inconsistencies of almost IG proportions (though somehow these
didn't bother me when I first read it.) The Tigress does indeed carry a 
huge squadron of fighters - and even Imperial Heavy Fighters are (the ones
that are half fuel, needed by the huge power plant needed to power the huge
computer - everything that's wrong with HG ship design in one convienient
package) of limited use against capital ships. One can argue that it's more
intended for system control duties than line-of-battle; there are a couple of
more general battleships included as well. People mostly just site the
Tigress because it looks cool.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:50:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Re Life in other systems, B5

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> 
> In a similar vein, I was wondering what the effect of a large celestial
> body would have on the human body.  Many mainworlds seem to be moons of gas
> giants, Regina is one, and based on the effect that the moon has on the
> human body,

Which is none...

> I wonder what effect that type of environment would have.
> Would the incidents of "moon madness" increase, 

No objective study has ever proven any 'Full moon effect' on any human
activies, except those that benefit from the added illumination at night
(keg parties, burglary, other assorted recreational activities like
that) There is actually no statisically significant increase in ER
admits, crime (other than the aforementioned burglary) or other 'moon
madness' stuff that has ever been documented.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:57:44 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Survey Speeds

It's interesting to think about justifications that would let you slow down
survey speeds. If it takes weeks, months, or years with good sensors within
a few parsecs of a target system to survey it well enough to jump, that
slows down expansion tremendously - which makes it much more plausible that
(for example) the Vilani never quite reached Earth, or the Imperium only moved
slowly towards and past the Marches...

For example, what if you really do need to chart the locations of most of
the planets inside the target system? What if ships that hit a planet's
100-d limit don't just pop out of jump space but pop out in small bite-sized
pieces? Then you need to know where at least the gas giants or the plane of 
a systems ecliptic is before you jump into it - even a 2% chance of hitting
Jupiter's 100-d limit is probably unacceptable. This requires observing the
system long enough to plot the orbits of the gas giants and to be sure
that you haven't missed any plantes (becuase, say, they were in front of 
the star); probably a month or two within ten parsecs with a good sensor,
or years within 30 parsecs with better sensors. If you combine this with a 
variant where you have to be within a thousand diameters to get *out*
of jumpspace - so you can't jump 20,000 AU away from a system - it slows
things down nicely. 

Another variant - how about if you can only come out of jumpspace at a 
place where local gravitational forces (from the star and a planet) 
cancel each other out - poised in-between the planet and the star - to within
a few thousand km. In that case you need to chart a system well enough to 
know where at least one planet is *and its mass*, which requires detecting
its moons or its effects on other planets - very time-consuming. The moons
in particular would require being within a couple of parsecs. 

Combine either of these with HePlaR-only drives - so that crossing a solar
system requires a couple of weeks - and the fastest-possible expansion could
well end up being a parsec per month even with an expensive dedicated survey
ship.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:51:10 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Extended Duration Survey Vehicle (hopefullly final revision)

In response to some of the suggestions Aerron offered, here is yet another
(and hopefully final) version of the Extended Duration Survey Vehicle from
"The Long Way Home".

The hull values for surface area and hit points were taken from a table
found at http://www.buffnet.net/~hal/HullsMain.html, which has all the hull
value for TL's 9-12, calculated using the formula in GURPS Vehicles, rather
than the approximated version used in the Vehicles book (which are good
enough for most purposes, but I thought I'd try it out). It also produces
hulls for four levels of streamlining; Unstreamlined, Fair, Good and Very
Good. Assuming these values are correct, and I believe they are, this makes
a valuable resource.

Anyway, here is the ship:

McCauley Class Extended Duration Survey Vessel (EDSV)

	A venerable design that has seen service since the early days of the Third
Imperium, this craft was originally designed as a military courier. The
Scout Service recognized it's potential and converted it for use as a ship
for long-duration survey missions; it's double fuel capacity gives it an
effective 4 parsec range and while by no means a warship, it has enough
firepower to survive potentially deadly encounters. The ship is still used
for survey missions by the IISS, as well as by private individuals (those
sold to private owners genrally remove the missle rack and replace it with
another set of lasers).

CREW: Captain (Leadership and Tactics), Pilot [Piloting (spacecraft)],
Navigator (Astrogation), Sensors Operator [Electronics Operation
(Sensors)], Commo Operator [Electronics Operation (Communications)],
Engineer (Engineer and Mechanic), 3 Gunners [Gunner (Laser), (Missle),
(Sandcaster)], Medic (Diagnosis, Physician and Surgery), 2 Scientists
(various). Many crews double up the Sensors and Commo positions; the Pilot
and Navigator positions can also be doubled up.

300-ton SL hull, DR 200, 1 turret with three 360-Mj lasers, 1 Turret with
one Missle rack (77 missles ready), 1 Turret with three Sandcasters (600
cannisters total), Radical Emissions Claoking, Radical Stealth, 
Basic Bridge (hardened), Engineering, 45 Maneuver, 9 Jump, 120 Fuel, 16
Spacedock (holds 4,000 cf of
air/rafts or other vehicles), 7 Staterooms, Sickbay, Utility, 2 Fuel
Processor (16 tons of fuel per hour), 1 Lab, 9.5 Cargo.

STATISTICS: Emass 773 LMass 850.6 Cost Mcr 100.105 Hull Size Modifier +9,
Hit Points 25,409

PERFORMANCE: Accel 2.1 G's, Jump 2, Air Speed 2,648


Enjoy

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 15:55:35 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Re: G:T or T5

At 07:42 AM 12/4/98 +1000, you wrote:
>Which will be the best system ? G:T is out now, it has a proven track
>record, in that it is based on Gurps (obviously) it, is produced by a large
>company that has withstood all sorts of problems (including the IRS). It
>also seems to be gaining a lot of support, including a growing number of
>fans on this list. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with Gurps.
>OTOH, T5 is based on the old versions of Traveller (probably much improved
>through the input of this list) with which I am familiar, periodically
>suffers from publication problems and has displayed a nasty tendency to go
>belly-up. (I am not having a go at anyone here). In addition to this I can
>spend my Christmas dollars on a product that is on the shelves now or wait
>indefinitely for T5. Despite this, my preference is to wait for T5, but how
>long ? Last I heard was it was to be released prior to Christmas (only 20
>shopping days to go....) Am I wasting time and delaying the inevitable ? Or
>is T5 nearly here ?

go with gurps, it as better compatability for different genra
T5 maybe cool to, and you can always ask your store to hold it for you, or
buy it later.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:19:22 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Re Life in other systems, B5

At 09:50 AM 12/4/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>> 
>> In a similar vein, I was wondering what the effect of a large celestial
>> body would have on the human body.  Many mainworlds seem to be moons of gas
>> giants, Regina is one, and based on the effect that the moon has on the
>> human body,
>
>Which is none...
>
>> I wonder what effect that type of environment would have.
>> Would the incidents of "moon madness" increase, 
>
>No objective study has ever proven any 'Full moon effect' on any human
>activies, except those that benefit from the added illumination at night
>(keg parties, burglary, other assorted recreational activities like
>that) There is actually no statisically significant increase in ER
>admits, crime (other than the aforementioned burglary) or other 'moon
>madness' stuff that has ever been documented.

Just because it has not been documented does not mean it is not possible.
I asked the question because of personal experience (first in retail and
sales and then in customer service and tech support) during the full moon
period.  Clients are a bit more edgy, combative, rude, and generally
unpleasent.

Again, it was based on personal observations.


Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:20:57 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Survey Speeds

> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:15:42 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Survey Speeds
> 
> Spaceborne telescopes of the size of the ones we have now on the
> ground, as well as things like long baseline optical interferometers
> will let planets be detected for at least hundreds of parsecs. Gas
> giants definitely, and a fair number of the others.
> 

Probably not.  Remember, stars are emitters while most planets are only
detectable through reflected or reradiated emissions.  VLBI will increase
resolution, but not sensitivity.  You not only have to spot a planet but
you have to do so when there is a tremendously bright source (the star)
very nearby.  The planetary orbit may not be inclined to you in such a way
to give you a good reading, either.  Detecting planets a couple of parsecs
away, certainly, and gas giants (especially Jovian or larger emitters) well
beyond that -- but not "hundreds of parsecs".

> If I expanded the above, plus some of my other ideas into a "How the
> IISS survey works" document, would folks be interested? 
> 

Someone out there is supposedly writing GURPS Traveller: Scouts.  It might
be worthwhile to track that individual down and offer your services, before
it gets written some other way.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:13:29 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Courier Networks

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Courier Networks
...
>As I said earlier, when your fast courier service is dedicated to
>point-to-point service, you won't have any (or many) problems
>with reliability. Once you add hubs and nexi, you will start having
>problems with missed connections. If your courier leaves every week,
>then missing a connection by a day will cost you a week of time.
>Not just there, but at every hub where a connection was missed.
>The delays will add, even multiply in effect.

OK. Personally I'm not touching the "network" in any real sense,
just trying to model J-5+ spines with minimal off-shoots - the one
for Al Morai would be Big Four, Regina post-war, and then from Mora
to anti-spinward (and eventually Capital).

  Particularly post-5FW the pilots (and engineers?) should be available
(as small raiders and escorts are stood down) to allow the handful of
couriers in question (less than a dozen for the minimal intra-sector
installation) to use military-style jumps for less variable jump-times.
Failing that, an 8.5 day schedule pretty much eliminates all normal
mishaps affecting scheduling.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:31:48 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Fast Couriers
...
>But still, it isn't to many who are interested in news from more than a couple
>of tens of miles from there home. How many of you americans or australians 
>follow european news regulary? How many of us europeans follow american news?  
>And does anybody follow news from Africa, except for africans?

  Businesses have very good reasons to want long-distance news, at least
in OTU. Elites also tend to be interested in more than the local gossip
and sports pages. And anyone with shares in mining companies operating in
Africa follows the news there; IIRC, some of the South African gold companies
are getting listings on NorAm exchanges now to capitalize.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:32:05 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network I
...
>First we were talking about a extencive J6 - X-boatish network that would 
>carry information (mail,news etc.) throughout the Imperium, now were down to
>an express route between four worlds.

  I've been giving cases for express routes - the Big Four was merely the
smallest such model (well, now there's Mora-Rhylanor per Mr. Smith). I'm
prepared to assume that there isn't a J-5+ X-Mail system.

>Second. Your using a HG-ship. Whats its cost? I don't own HG, so I can't easily
>find this out. Since I'm a FFS-guy myself how does the prices compare?

  FFS? Burn, heretic! I posted a whole series of couriers around NOV/24 -
nothing good on TV, I guess :)

...
>This is were you miss some of my views. We have four worlds of over 8 billion 
>TL F citizens each. What do you trade between these worlds that they can't
>produce themself? Why would anybody on Glisten be interested in what goes on
>on Mora? There is enough going on on Glisten to fill every newspaper to the
>brim. You assume that all citizens on Glisten will have an interest in Mora.

 i) OTU assumes a fair chunk of trade. Given the assumptions about OTU I
can't argue - without that trade the result wouldn't be the OTU. FWIW, I
have run a campaign where most worlds were near self-contained autarkies
supported by asteroid mining and highly automated factories.

 ii) If less than even a few tens of thousands of people on each those worlds
wants, needs, or can derive any physical utility from that news, then they're
not in a human society bearing any close relation to what we understand. FWIW,
you personally are reading "news" from the US right at this moment :)

...
>the network (although your numbers lack the expences for other expences than 
>building the ships, maintaining them and crewing them)

  Actually, I went into those too, but only partially.

...
>"might" and "the possible result". Two phrases in your sentence that brings my

  You can't claim that I'm being closed-minded, can you? (well, more
likely you can't pin me down to much on the first try, anyway) :>
IAC, even Victorian England had more potential customers by at least
a factor of ten. How many would the 1990's USA have?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:34:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Re Life in other systems, B5

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> 

> Just because it has not been documented does not mean it is not possible.
> I asked the question because of personal experience (first in retail and
> sales and then in customer service and tech support) during the full moon
> period.  Clients are a bit more edgy, combative, rude, and generally
> unpleasent.
>

Yep, this is also a well documented effect. Ask anyone who works an
E.R., fire or police station. Almost without fail, they will tell you
things get weird during a full moon, they have more cases, the have more
crazies, etc, etc. BUT if you look at the actual admissions or other
records, there isn't objective proof of the variation they notice
subjectively.

What _is_ happening, is that _you_ know that there's a full moon, by now
oyu are expecting more rudeness, craziness, etc, so that it is more
noticeable subjectively. than the usual run-of-the-mill craziness and
rudeness. You attribute things to the full moon that you don't attribute
to anything else the rest of the time.

You have something to hang it on...the rest of the month when some
a**hole ^H^H^H^H 'Valued customer' treats you like crap, you think, 'oh
this is just another clueless a**hole'. But during the full moon, you go
'Hey, you know, it's a full moon tonight...gonna be a crazy one...'

(I do know whereof I speak, being in tech support myself...)

a couple of online references:

http://www.ktv-i.com/news/nn10_31_97.html

http://wheel.ucdavis.edu/~btcarrol/skeptic/fullmoon.html




- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:11:37 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>dom> Who are looking to establish an Inquistion to deal with the various canon
>> heretics who violate the true and blessed M0 way ;-)
>
>Thankfully, the warrior-monk Ricardos, with the support of the Imperial
>Church of Sylea, have already devised a cunning plan to deal with the
>upstart "Restorers," because they foresaw that such an event would come
>
>- - Brother Claw, please bring me the  . . . Cunning Plan.
>
>- - But Bishop Fop, I thought you had the  . . . Cunning Plan.

Not....THE BISHOP?!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:51:43 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Smuggling

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Smuggling
...
>>  If they're transported on compact media (~CD) and the duplicates aren't
>>kept on file then the level of traffic could easily be tolerable. While
...
>One problem that might araise is the accidental destruction of the 
>record media (i.e the CD in this case). Imagine a X-Boat carring 
>mail that is essential to a corporation or maybe to a law suit and
>arriving in-system discore that the hard-drive and backups are 
>corrupted due to a human error, jump space anomali, etc. ;-)

  That is why routine duplicates and the problems they then cause was
discussed several days ago in this thread.

...
>Say there is a warrant out for a smuggler. The warrant is sent out
>by xboat. Is it sent out in all directions, or in the most likly direction
>that the smuggler has gone? When reaching a system, does it automaticly 
>go with the next x-boat out, or is it up to the starport sheriff to
>send it on? If it is sent on automaticly and the starport sheriff
>has arrested the smuggler what then?   

  I think this we're talking about sending messages to authorities for
tracking/collation. I haven't given much thought to legal implementation,
nor have I read the M:0 stuff on the IMoJ closely (imagine - IG material
that might be almost worth the money I paid for it!).

...
>Imagine a X-boat network with a filter on certain names to keep
>the warrents on their arrest from being distributed :-)

  Easily - because the system in question doesn't seem to flag Type TJ's!

...
>But how the hell do they determine if the staff is reliable. You can't, so
>you hire the one you think you can rely on, but among these there will be
>corrupted staff, just like there is today. (And incompetent also)

  Incompetent we can live with, mostly :) Why not hire Imperial ex-service
sophonts or newts - they make great post-masters. If all such personnel are
corrupt/easily corrupted then the Rebellion really let the 3I off easily.

...
>Why? With an average GDP of 15000Cr (at 4$ per Cr -> 60.000$)
>versus the average GDP of under 3000$ today, this is no more than 
>a car theft (assuming that the ship is not new). And we know how 
>serious the police are about car theft today :-) They routinly call
>in the military to get these thieves, just like the IN is taking care
>of the pirates. (sarcasme intended ;-)

  "sarcasme"? Did you drop some decimal places perchance?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:51:49 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Fast Couriers
...
>You can not compare two 8 billion populations with two 300 million populations.
>What is it the Earth needs to import that we can not produce ourself? 

  Jump drives? :>

...
>>About 0.1% of them is about 10 million customers ... even better economics
>>if you assume that rich people are more interested in what happens elsewhere.
...
>world. He want's the news that affect him personally, and those news are 
>norwegian and mainly about the cheesemarket in norway.

  He could of course make more money by expanding until he can export
surplus cheese over the local demand.

>But what is the general cost of living for these people. The administrators
>that run the network, the building that the HQ is in. The cost of setting up
...

  _I cheated_ - per posts, Al Morai already has thse things.

...
>Well, the Imperium is in my view not a good place to make good adventures, at
>least not when it is the way Steve, Hans and you portray. Sorry :-) but I don't
>like it that way. You have no marigin for human stupidity or error. Every thing

  OC there's a margin for stupidity/error - just add players :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:27:01 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: QSDS1.5 TL15 j6 Blitzen class xboat

Here is a QSDS X-boat for j6 use....

Dom

- -----
Blitzen-class Boat Express
Designed by Dominic Mooney

This starship was designed using the rules in the Quick Starship Design
System v1.5

UNIVERSAL SHIP DESCRIPTION

Tons 100            Volume 1400                   Cost in MCr 51.420
Crew: 5             High/Middle Passengers: 0/0
                    Low Passengers: 0
Cargo: 7 Std        Controls: Std                 TL: 15
8 Size
6 Jump Drive
No Maneuver Drive
1 Power Plant
60.4 Fuel Rating/Scoops
A1 P3 J0 Sensors
10 Armour, 6 Structure
Crew Detail:
Captain, 1 Engineer, 2 Electronic Technicians, 1 Maneuver Crewmember

DESIGN SPREADSHEET

Item                              Volume     Power      Area      Cost
Crew
HULL
Wedge S 100                                   27.3       4.4

DRIVES
Jump drive (6 parsecs)               7.0                29.4      32.7
0.2
Jump fuel for 6 parsecs             60.0

No maneuver drive

Power plants: 75MW x 1               2.7                 7.5      75.0
0.1
Power plant fuel (1 year)            0.4

ELECTRONICS
Standard Civilian Controls           1.5       1.8      18.2       0.2

Basic Sensors                        0.3      11.1       6.8      12.4
0.4
Advanced Communications                       21.5       2.0     203.0
0.8
CREW
Captain

1 Maneuver Crewmember

1 Engineer

2 Electronic Technicians

WORKSPACE
5x Workstations                      2.5

Cargo Hold                           7.7

ACCOMODATIONS
4x Small Staterooms                  8.0       0.0       0.2

1x Large Stateroom                   4.0       0.0       0.1

TOTALS
                                    94.1      61.7      68.6     323.3
5.0

No description given.


(Designed with QSDS: Traveller's Quick Starship Design Software. Copyright
Robert Prior, 1998)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1242
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, December 4 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1243



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fast Couriers
Map of the Reaver's Deep sector
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
re: alpha centauri
re: (fleet procurements choices)
Re: Jump-6 courier networks
IISS Survey times...
GT Plasma/fusion weapons
Re: GT Plasma/fusion weapons
Re: Survey Speeds
Re: Re Life in other systems, B5
Re: Jump-6 courier network
Re: Re Life in other systems, B5
Re: External armament pods (was Re: Dumber than Mud (OT))
Re: Fast Couriers
Two requests - one from me, one from Ditzie
Another toy from Ditzie
Re: alpha centauri
Re: Survey Speeds
Re: Jump-6 courier networks
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)
Things that make you go "Hmmmmm....."
Re: Re Life in other systems, B5

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:18:53 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

 "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>>Ok, so you own the Regina Post and I own the Regina News.  I get my news
>>reports two months before you do.  By the time you get it, it is worth
>>precisely nothing.  I make giga-bucks, you go out of business.
>
>Well, is this going to be enough to support an entire X-boat
>kind of distribution system?  How much are they willing to pay?
>I don't see it myself and we are talking non-Trivial amount
>of money.

Well, picture the X-boat network as the equivalent of Reuters or AP for
news delivery, and that gives it a reason to stop at the worlds along the
network (and maybe sign up long term contracts). Indeed, the planetary
governments may sign up to a J6 network and *repress* the news they get
early to gain a political edge for their spin doctors.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 13:57:46 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Map of the Reaver's Deep sector

Would anyone here on the list (to which I return after an Imperium
Games-inspired absence of some months) happen to have a map of the Reaver's
Deep sector (and attendant UPPs would be a big bonus!), since my copy of the
Atlas of the imperium was lost years ago in a flood?

Thanks in advance,
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:10:35 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:

> (Before anyone replies, I know the historical reasons why the Kinunir is 
> weird, and know that they didn't really build many of them...although
> I'm not sure there is a good patrol-ship design in "Fighting Ships"; the
> Crysanthemum is really tied to fleet ops, and I can't recall the specs of the
> Fer-de-Lance. 

Actually, I thought I caught a reference to an "Advanced Kinunir" project
in RSB or paging through GT, being started in the post-5FW era.  I assume
this is only to explain how there's so many Kinunirs flying around TNE/GT
when the navy supposedly only built twenty of them....

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 14:12:59 EST
From: "Sean Nelson" <sean_c_nelson@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: alpha centauri

it was said (by Bruce?)...
>> The conclusion is that a single planet on a circular orbit is
>> unstable over much of the region around central Alpha Centauri
>> binary. However, there are zones in which such a planet could be
>> stablw over million year time scales. These zones are located both
>> far from the binary (a>= 70AU) or near the binary or secondary
>> (a<=3AU). The semimajor axis between the two are 23AU. So there could
>> most defenitly be planets around the system.

Shadow responded:
>However, for *life* it would seem that you need orbits stable on
>*billion* year time scales. <sigh>

The knowledge on this TML never ceases to amaze me.  Thank-you everybody 
for your responses on the Alpha Centauri/life question.

After asking the question I did some research on the net and found a 
host of differing opinions.  The most intelligent responses have been 
here (naturally) and have suggested life in that system would be 
difficult, although one or two seemingly educated people outside the 
group feel differently.  Note the web page:

http://monet.physik.unibas.ch/~schatzer/Alpha-Centauri.html

The only way we can be sure is to wait for the next xboat, that is if 
those involved in the courier debate feel the information is valuable 
enough to support the cost. :^)

- -Sean

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:13:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: (fleet procurements choices)

>From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)
...
>In fleet combats, ships below 3000 dTons (maybe even 5-10,000) are really
...
>sort of 500-1000 ton ship you want lots of to heavily patrol against pirates.

  Actually, those Fleet Couriers pack a really mean punch against civvies.

  What I'm wondering is why the AHL class was never refitted with TL F
comps and power plant? Imagine - it would have an Agility >0 rating!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:13:54 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier networks

>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier networks
...
>In a sense it is. I imagine that the logic goes something like this: If
>jump-6 message traffic was profitable, it would exist. Since canon states
>that all message traffic goes by the X-boat network (at an average of 2.6
>parsecs/week!), jump-6 message traffic does not exist. Therefor it cannot
>be profitable.

  As Mr. Smith pointed out, the Mora-Rhylanor route takes 2 weeks at J-5,
and "only" five by X-Boat _if_ you skip all the really "senseless" links;
while that would still be pretty sad it's at least a start.

...
>sectors, pretty soon you have an Imperium wide network. Not, to be sure, an
>extensive X-boatish network, but then, I don't think Steven propose doing
>away with the X-boat network, merely the notion that the X-boats would be
>the fastest means of communication available.

  The X-Boats are fun, as long as I don't have an accountant or business
person in my game; the J-4 but can be attributed to inertia/politics or
the sheer cynicism of the Imperium, but the 2.6 average would just blow
suspension of disbelief all to hell. It's a lot simpler running a horde
of scientists through fantasy RPG's.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:18:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: IISS Survey times...

If I recall correctly, IISS survey times are mentioned in both Grand 
Survey/Grand Census and World Builder's Handbook, depending on the 
classification of the survey.

Class I:  Identifies stars and major planetary bodies from 
interstellar distances.  Takes 2d6 hours.

Class II:  Identifies all planetary and satellite bodies, and 
generates rough physical characteristic data on Habitable Zone 
worlds, if any.  Mostly performed from out-system by sensor sweep.  
Most initial surveys are of this type.  Takes 2d6 days.

Class III:  Determines physical data on all planetary and satellite 
bodies.  Maps HZ world (and/or moons) via orbital 
photography/holography.  Possible landing on surface of HZ world.  
Takes 2d6 weeks.

Class IV:  Fairly thorough examination of entire system.  All planets 
and satellites are mapped.  Landings and possible contact.  Takes 2d6 
months.

Class V:  Extremely thorough examination of entire system.  In-depth, 
long-term cultural study and contact.  Major dedication of resources. 
 Takes 2d6 years.

This is from memory, of course.  Hope this helps.

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:25:31 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: GT Plasma/fusion weapons

Just a question, possible suggestion for Plasma/Fusion weapons.
It states in GT that these weapons are built like plasma-blasters(NPAWS)
but cost 10x as much as they are in UT2.

Is this price hike just for personal weapons, or does this apply to
personal and starship weapons alike.  Is there a Kw cap?

I would keep the 15x cost rule for personal weapons, but make it 1.5x cost
for ship weapons.  Handwave it on the cost of minimization of the
containment field? ;-)

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:32:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Plasma/fusion weapons

William Prankard writes:
> Just a question, possible suggestion for Plasma/Fusion weapons.
> It states in GT that these weapons are built like plasma-blasters(NPAWS)
> but cost 10x as much as they are in UT2.
> 
> Is this price hike just for personal weapons, or does this apply to
> personal and starship weapons alike.  Is there a Kw cap?

The x15 cost has been consistently ignored for vehicular weapons, and I think
it might be stated explicitly in Star Mercs that you should do this.  The
breakpoint is probably 6,400 kJ, since weapons are half-weight below that
point.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:58:38 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Survey Speeds

>> Spaceborne telescopes of the size of the ones we have now on the
>> ground, as well as things like long baseline optical interferometers
>> will let planets be detected for at least hundreds of parsecs. Gas
>> giants definitely, and a fair number of the others.

>Probably not.  Remember, stars are emitters while most planets are only
>detectable through reflected or reradiated emissions.  VLBI will increase
>resolution, but not sensitivity.

Probably yes. NASA thinks its' hypothetical space-based planet-finding
interferometer ("Terrestrial Planet Finder"), for launch in the 2010s or
2020s, could see Earthlike planets around sunlike stars out to 10 or more
parsecs - and that's at TL8. In the nearer term, a space-based 8-10m telescope
like the Next Generation Space Telescope could expect to see jupiter-like
planets out to tens of parsecs. Spacecraft sensors - at least in TNE/T4 - 
are bigger and better than either of those; optimized spacecraft sensors might
be able to detect many gas-giant planets out to 100 pc and earthlikes to 
20 or more pc. (Whether they could - for example - measure orbits precisely
enough to let you safely jump into a system is another question.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:00:44 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re Life in other systems, B5

I worked for hospitals as a lab tech for 14 years.  We did our own study 
on this, found out there is no statistical change at all.

JimC

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:00:42 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier network

Bruce Alan Macintosh said:

>It's also possible, however, that Delgado's stock is only traded on one
>planet - Regina, or the planet with its corporate headquarters. That's (in
>some sense) the way most stocks work now, and worked in the 19th
>century - they are only traded on one exchange, which does have a physical
>location, and your ability to purchase those shares if you're not
>physically present is limited by the speed of communication (instantaneous
>today, but significant in the past.)


It's possible. The model I'm assuming is a bit different. I imagine
megacorporations not as huge, pondering, inflexible beasts, but the
equivlant of amalgamations of many smaller companies.

There is some evidence that this is one of the ways that huge, modern
corporations are choosing. For example, significant portions of 3M have
splintered into smaller companies to better focus on the tasks at hand. The
companies, as a whole, are still 3M though.

By my reasoning, a megacorporation would likely be made up of hundreds (or
thousands, or tens of thousands) of smaller companies. Some of these
companies might even be in competition with each other. So far, this model
is completely compatible with canon.

Now, the stock market. Individual worlds would have their stock markets.
Megacorporation branches on a world would be traded on  the stock markets of
these worlds. Normal corporations on the world, and larger corporations on
the subsector and sector level would also have stock traded if they had a
presence on the world.

At the subsector capital, there'd be another stock market (or possibly
merely another layer of the stock market). The various megacorporations (as
megacorporate entities) would be traded, as well as all of the corporations
in the subsector. At the sector capital, there'd be yet another stock market
(or another layer). Megacorporations would be traded, as well as sectorwide
corporations and the larger subsector-wide corporations.

The stock markets, in all cases would trade constantly. Maybe the planetary
markets might shut down for a few hours per Imperial standard day. Maybe all
might be forced by Imperial law to shut down for a few Imperial hours per
Imperial day. I'm not sure. I envision around the clock trading though.

I don't know what the stock market would look like above the sector-wide
level. The concept is really mind boggling to think about.

So this is the model I'm making my assumptions on. I'm not positive that
it's completely compatible with canon, but I can find no canon that would
invalidate it.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:43:27 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Re Life in other systems, B5

>
>What _is_ happening, is that _you_
>know that there's a full moon, by now
>oyu are expecting more rudeness,
>craziness, etc, so that it is more
>noticeable subjectively. than the usual
>run-of-the-mill craziness and rudeness.
>You attribute things to the full moon that
>you don't attribute to anything else the rest
>of the time.


While I realize the statistics back you up, I am surprised, because
there is at least one thing that is linked to lunar cycles, and that
is a woman's menstrual period, and I believe there _is_ evidence
that this has an affect on "mental health" in a broad sense.

Of course, while the cycle is linked, the linkage (and
synchronization) now may be completely out for most women, but I'd
guees that the tradition may have started when there was a tighter
correlation between menstruation and the lunar cycle, and as there
is also evidence that women living in close proximity tend to
synchronize their cycles, I'd say it would only take a few tribes
where all the women mentsruated in sync with the full moon, and had
significant mental problenms at the time for the legend to spread.

There's even some stories tying this into the werewolf legend.


I read somewhere that there is also a correlation betwen suicide
rates and the 11 year sunspot cycle, though obviously there was no
causal relationship mentioned

OBTrav : Do menstrual periods on long inhabited worlds become
modifed to match and local lunar cycles ?

What happens to them in cultures that live in space or on world
wwith no lunar tides ?

Reminds me of Earth 2, colud there be a long term problem living
solely in space in Traveller ?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:44:34 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: External armament pods (was Re: Dumber than Mud (OT))

>Frankly, given that it's *impossible* to give a fighter enough armor to
>matter, I think that the standard design for fighters *not* intended to
>enter atmosphere would be a central support "spar" (sort of like the
>triangular trusses to be used in the International Space Station). You
>have the engines, cockpit, and weapons systems off of this.


Sort of like an "Eagle" from Space:1999, huh ?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:33:46 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

- -----Original Message-----
From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, December 03, 1998 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers


>
>It would be better to say that, since a governement built Express
>Postal Service (the X-boat network) already exists and meets most
>the needs, it may well be that nobody want to spend the money
>needed to have a 33% quicker, but otherwise redundant, network.
>
>Again, the point that someone can "afford" it shows nothing.  Weither
>their is enough news that can wait a certain amount of time, but
>looses significant money if it wait 33% longer, is debatable.
>summers@alum.mit.edu


David your figure of 33% is incorrect...The delay is 2X the time or 100%...
A J4 ship would have to make 2 jumps to get out to jump 6 from some
planet/star base/etc.  If you add up the time it's 4 weeks(+/-) round trip.
A J6 ship is out and back in 2 weeks(+/-) therefore it is a 100% increase in
time (2X) needed for J4 ship to do the same job...Granted the circumstances
would have to be just so for that to be case but it COULD be the case in
great number of places.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 09:20:57
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Two requests - one from me, one from Ditzie

>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: More toys from Ditzie
>
>- ---Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
>> 
>> 'Famile Spofulam Releases New Laser Turrets'
>[snip the offensive material]
>
>Oh! how we suffer.  {Little bits of canon fodder all over the place} 
>How can we allow zealots like this to spue their personal universe all
>over our self-involved lives?  Please censure this activity severely! 
>Let's drop this thread now, before a flame war takes out the whole
>Internet.  How can my universe or yours remain pure with this type of
>post poluting the TML?  Cease! Desist, I say.  Won't someone end the
>madness...........

Look, Kengi isnt around ... could somone please run that above commentary
on Ditzie's latest through a machine translator a couple of times ?

I'm sure an English-German-Russian-English translation should provide much
amusement.

By the way, Ditzie wants to know how big a stereo system you need at TL12
to be heard through Battle Dress' sound dampers at a kilometer and a half.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 09:42:37
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Another toy from Ditzie

"FS pushes for Ground Pounder m-share"

'Those darling little tykes at FS have done it again, this time with a
man-portable plasma bazooka with remote-firing capability.

The weapon masses a total of thirty kilograms, and includes integral
wide-spectrum electronic sights, bipod, aiming mechanism, and three hundred
meters of fibre optic cable.

It is a one-shot affair, propelling four megajoules of plasma to a distance
of two hundred meters, and the always-resourceful Ditzie Spofulam showed
how the bolt has the ability to penetrate four centimeters of superdense
armour.

Costing KCr 27, empty tubes are also available for Cr 100 each ... as
Ditzie says 'Weeeee think if you leave leave leaaaavvveeee enough empty
tubie-wubies around, then the tanker-wankers will get paaaaarrrraaaanoid
and go awayyyyyyyywaywayyyy or they'll get lazy-wazy and miss the reaaallll
one.'.

Indications were also given that the weapon had potential for use against
battledress-equipped troops.'

****************************************************************************
**********

The weapon includes a 16 kg mechanism, a 0.01 kg action, a 9.6 kg EPG, a
2.6 kg bipod, a 0.2 kg Electronic Sights, 0.1 kg Wide Spectrum Visual
Goggles, and 1.4 kg worth of fibre-optic cable and aiming mechanism.

Note that recoil damping is not supported. The inch-thick Operators Manual
warns that FS will not be held liable for damage caused by users actually
holding the thing prior to firing.

The weapon is designed to be emplaced somewhere with a good arc of fire,
and the user links the fibre-optic cable to their HUD, while they go hide
somewhere. Once a suitable target comes into range, kerblowie.

In Traveller terms, Combat Engineering is probable the most suitable skill
for emplacement, and then High-Energy Weapons for firing.

A couple of rules were bent - there is no loading mechanism, no recoil
mechanism, and I made up reasonable numbers for the aiming mechanism and
fibre optic cable.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:57:15 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: alpha centauri

Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:18:46 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> The conclusion is that a single planet on a circular orbit is
>> unstable over much of the region around central Alpha Centauri
>> binary. However, there are zones in which such a planet could be
>> stablw over million year time scales. These zones are located both
>> far from the binary (a>= 70AU) or near the binary or secondary
>> (a<=3AU). The semimajor axis between the two are 23AU. So there could
>> most defenitly be planets around the system.

>However, for *life* it would seem that you need orbits stable on
>*billion* year time scales. <sigh>

Current feeling is that life can from in a few 100 million years,
or shorter.  (There is some evidence of life at 3.9 billion years
ago and it is though the planet wasn't habitable much before 4.0
billion years).

It did take a couple billion years for mulicellular life
to form.  It isn't a sure thing that it alway has to take
that long.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 01:08:18 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Survey Speeds

On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Christopher B. Thrash wrote:

 
> Probably not.  Remember, stars are emitters while most planets are only
> detectable through reflected or reradiated emissions.  VLBI will increase
> resolution, but not sensitivity.  You not only have to spot a planet but
> you have to do so when there is a tremendously bright source (the star)
> very nearby.  The planetary orbit may not be inclined to you in such a way
> to give you a good reading, either.  Detecting planets a couple of parsecs
> away, certainly, and gas giants (especially Jovian or larger emitters) well
> beyond that -- but not "hundreds of parsecs".

  Which is why NASA's TPF and PI missions (planned) are to be _infrared_
interferometers. An avrerage star's photosphere is so hot that in IR its
radiation is markedly less dominating than in visible light. (The
radiation from the photosphere is quite close to blackbody, which peaks at
VL in these temperatures.) Also with interferometry comes the innate
ability to cancel the interference fringes caused by the central star
before closure phase (that's when the actual image is formed). in TPF's
case this is supposed to drop the star's brigthness to millionth part of
the original.
  The TPF claims to be able to resolve _terresteial type_ planets about
15pc away, of course it's still in feasibility study, but given funding
this could be just a few decades away. Imagine what one can do given
centuries, let alone millenia of development.

 (check out http://eis.jpl.nasa.gov/origins/missions/terrplfndr.html for
  more info)
- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:20:41 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier networks

>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:38:52 +0100 (MET)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>It might be, but why raise the point at all since no-one is proposing an
>X-boat kund of distribution system? What we have been talking about is a
>much smaller system that links a limited number of major systems (300 or
>so sector and subsector capitals plus a few extra along the way).

Actually, this all started with the claim that the
info on suspected smugglers would be given general distribution
at jump-6 (ie via a X-boat kind of network).

(In fact I still keep this original point in mind when I post.
Perhaps I'm just wierd that way.  :-)

All I maintain is that it is reasonable that the general
method of information distribution is via the X-boat network
as presented.  There maybe exceptions (special courier for
certain organizations, events, etc), how extensive those
are depends on how you spin it.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 13:28:16 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

At 23:06 4/12/98, Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>
>>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>>Second. Your using a HG-ship. Whats its cost? I don't own HG, so I can't
>easily
>>find this out. Since I'm a FFS-guy myself how does the prices compare?
>> 
>
>Jump-6 TL 15 couriers are cheaper in FFS2. Most designs crunch out to about
>MCr 150, including maneuver drives and some cargo space.
>

FWIW I designed some X-Boats using FF&S1.

A J-4 M-1 X-Boat at TL-13 costs MCr 58.8 and has 45 DT of cargo space.
A J-4 M-1 X-Boat at TL-15 costs MCr 64.8 and has 49 DT of cargo space.
A J-6 M-1 X-Boat at TL-15 costs MCr 72.9 and has 38.5 DT of cargo space.

That means that a J-6 100DT courier costs 24% more than your basic FF&S1
X-Boat equivilent.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 19:54:43 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)

bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
>(Before anyone replies, I know the historical reasons why the Kinunir is 
>weird, and know that they didn't really build many of them...although
>I'm not sure there is a good patrol-ship design in "Fighting Ships"; the
>Crysanthemum is really tied to fleet ops, and I can't recall the specs of
>the
>Fer-de-Lance. 

A good summary, but I'll point out that there is a good canon patrol ship:
the Sydkai Patrol Cruiser from Travellers Digest. (Speaking as a proud
author, here, so you know I'm unbiased :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:41:04 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Things that make you go "Hmmmmm....."

        I am working on a planet generation program for use in Windows...
It will randomly create names, etc.  Was just doing some testing, and here
is a portion of what it spit out:

        Name:  Foqof
        UWP:   X-8CA000-0

        I read the first pronunciation for the name that came to mind,
looked at the UWP and lauuuuughed.

        "We now return you to your regularlty scheduled debates"

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:04:58 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Re Life in other systems, B5

At 11:10 AM 12/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
>In a similar vein, I was wondering what the effect of a large celestial
>body would have on the human body.  Many mainworlds seem to be moons of gas
>giants, Regina is one, and based on the effect that the moon has on the
>human body, I wonder what effect that type of environment would have.
>Would the incidents of "moon madness" increase, or perhaps would the body
>adjust to the forces?

Having that bloody great disk overhead might cause some nervousness.
Perhaps someone better at math could tell me how much of Regina's sky is
taken up by Assinbola?  IIRC, Assinbola is a Size 60 GG, and Regina is 45
diameters out.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1243
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
`Traveller-digest     Saturday, December 5 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1244



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Pirates :)
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Things that make you go "Hmmmmm....."
Re: alpha centauri
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1243
re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: More toys from Ditzie
Re: GT Patrol Cruiser
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1243 
Re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)
Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)
Re: Things that make you go "Hmmmmm....."
Two parsec jumps
Re: Two parsec jumps 
Re: survey speed
QSDS1.5 Guppy Class Express Boat Tender
GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:08:34 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Pirates :)

In the new National Geographic, there is an article on the South China Sea
that mentions the upsurge in piracy in the area.  Good reading for those
who still use the little bastards in their campaigns.

Note:  This is not an attempt to resurrect the Piracy debate!  Just a
pointer to a good information source.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Pawn of the Droyne Conspiracy.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

UTUP: 0304 B-662D37B-5-5-2

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 14:22:06 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

At 08:45 4/12/98 -0800, Bruce wrote:

>People mostly just site the Tigress because it looks cool.

Is it the sphere with the wedge chopped out of one side and a box on the
back? I vaguely remeber something like that and something that looked like
a whole lot of flat boxes glued together.


- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:37:22 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:18:53 +0000, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Well, picture the X-boat network as the equivalent of Reuters or AP for
>news delivery, and that gives it a reason to stop at the worlds along the
>network (and maybe sign up long term contracts). Indeed, the planetary
>governments may sign up to a J6 network and *repress* the news they get
>early to gain a political edge for their spin doctors.

Connonically, there were (in MT at least), fast courier that
brought really important news to regional governments before the
populace got word of them (secretly).  But this is not the same
thing as network open to general use and suitable for diseminating
information generally....

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:42:26 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:33:46 -0500, "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>>Again, the point that someone can "afford" it shows nothing.  Weither
>>their is enough news that can wait a certain amount of time, but
>>looses significant money if it wait 33% longer, is debatable.
>>summers@alum.mit.edu

>David your figure of 33% is incorrect...The delay is 2X the time or 100%...
>A J4 ship would have to make 2 jumps to get out to jump 6 from some
>planet/star base/etc.  If you add up the time it's 4 weeks(+/-) round trip.
>A J6 ship is out and back in 2 weeks(+/-) therefore it is a 100% increase in
>time (2X) needed for J4 ship to do the same job... Granted the circumstances
>would have to be just so for that to be case but it COULD be the case in
>great number of places.

The point is that yes, you have chosen a specific situation that
favors a jump-6 ships.  OTOH, if you have a route that is two
jump 4's then there is _no_ savings with jump-6.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 17:23:58 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Things that make you go "Hmmmmm....."

At 10:41 PM 12/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
>        I am working on a planet generation program for use in Windows...
>It will randomly create names, etc.  Was just doing some testing, and here
>is a portion of what it spit out:
>
>        Name:  Foqof
>        UWP:   X-8CA000-0
>
>        I read the first pronunciation for the name that came to mind,
>looked at the UWP and lauuuuughed.

Reminds me of the story about when the US sent some SEALS to cross train
with their French equivilants during some NATO manuvers.  They were from
Team 2.  The French word for seal is "Phoque".  The word for two is "Duex".
 The SEALS happily saluted French officers by shouting out "Phoque Duex,
SIR!"
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:55:07 +0000
From: edjs@bitslayer.net
Subject: Re: alpha centauri

> Date:          Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:57:15 -0800
> From:          "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> 
> Current feeling is that life can from in a few 100 million years,
> or shorter.  (There is some evidence of life at 3.9 billion years
> ago and it is though the planet wasn't habitable much before 4.0
> billion years).
> 
> It did take a couple billion years for mulicellular life
> to form.  It isn't a sure thing that it alway has to take
> that long.

Were there any estimates on how long it took to get something like the current 
Nitrogen-Oxygen atmosphere?



- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.paralynx.com/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 18:02:12 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1243

> Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 13:57:46 -0500
> From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
> Subject: Map of the Reaver's Deep sector
> 
> Would anyone here on the list (to which I return after an Imperium
> Games-inspired absence of some months) happen to have a map of the Reaver's
> Deep sector (and attendant UPPs would be a big bonus!), since my copy of the
> Atlas of the imperium was lost years ago in a flood?

http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/traveller/reavers.html

Keven's got the whole RD on his site...  It's 1115 data I belive perhaps
modified up to 1126.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:58:34 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
At 08:45 4/12/98 -0800, Bruce wrote:

>People mostly just site the Tigress because it looks cool.

Is it the sphere with the wedge chopped out of one side and a box on the
back? I vaguely remeber something like that and something that looked like
a whole lot of flat boxes glued together.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah. the "giant pac-man" was the _Tigress_. The flat boxes was a
_Plankwell_, IMO a much cooler ship. 

Fighting ships mentioned that the _Plankwells_ were named after
Imperial Admirals, Admiral Olav haut Plankwell being the namesake
for the ship-of-class due to his leadership during the First Frontier War.
He later became Emperor by to showing up at Capitol with his fleet
and saying "Gimmee." Interestingly, while there is a class of Battle
Rider named for Emperors of the Imperium, his name hasn't been
used on any of them...you'd think they'd have forgiven him for that
Civil War by now...<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 02:22:38 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: More toys from Ditzie

Sword Worlder wrote:
> Ian or Katts wrote:
> >
> > 'Famile Spofulam Releases New Laser Turrets'
> [snip the offensive material]
>
> Oh! how we suffer.
[snip the offensive material]
> Won't someone end the madness...........


Nope.  I may not use Ditzie's toys IMTU (as is my choice), but  I
kind of like the occasional Ditzie post.

Question for Ian:  Is "Famile Spofulam" written up anywhere?



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 08:30:50 -1000
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GT Patrol Cruiser

> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:20:29 EST
> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> Subject: Re: GT Patrol Cruiser
> 
> In a message dated 12/2/98 12:38:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> craig_barnett@iname.com writes:
> 
> << Comments welcome! >>
> 
> How about deck plans....?

I'm considering doing these, but I recall somebody (I can't remember
who...) on the list mentioning they had deckplans for the standard
patrol cruiser available. Do you remember who you are???

- ---
Craig Barnett     <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 21:28:11 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:33:46 -0500, "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
> >>Again, the point that someone can "afford" it shows nothing.  Whether
> >>there is enough news that can wait a certain amount of time, but
> >>loses significant money if it waits 33% longer, is debatable.
> >>summers@alum.mit.edu
> 
> >David your figure of 33% is incorrect...The delay is 2X the time or 100%...
> >A J4 ship would have to make 2 jumps to get out to jump 6 from some
> >planet/star base/etc.  If you add up the time it's 4 weeks(+/-) round trip.
> >A J6 ship is out and back in 2 weeks(+/-) therefore it is a 100% increase in
> >time (2X) needed for J4 ship to do the same job... Granted the circumstances
> >would have to be just so for that to be case but it COULD be the case in
> >great number of places.
> 
> The point is that yes, you have chosen a specific situation that favors a jump-6 > ships.  OTOH, if you have a route that is two jump 4's then there is _no_ savings > with jump-6.
> 
The question then becomes:  _Assuming_ a rationalization of the X-boat
system (as many have pointed out, a lot of X-boat stops are irrational),
how many stops are mandated by the (comparatively) short legs of J-4
couriers?  Not having a hard-copy map of any M:1100 sector (and my .gif
file of the Marches is M:1200, without X-boat routes), I can't venture
more than a WAG, but I suspect that about half the stops are based
either solely or primarily on the need to service J-4 ships.  If that's
the case, then going to a J-6 standard will eliminate quite a few
unnecessary stops (especially if the criteria for deserving a J-6 stop
are Type A or Type B starport, plus additional factors you choose to
indicate an Important World).

Having said this, I see no need to abolish the J-4X-boat network.

I view the X-boat (at J-4) network as the equivalent of the US highway
network prior to the construction of the Interstate highway system.  A
J-6 network would be the equivalent of the Interstate highways.  To
continue the analogy, many worlds/towns are not part of either system
(covered in Traveller by Type S scout/couriers, subsidized merchants,
and available free traders, and in RL by state/local roads).  There are
towns served by neither Interstate highway nor by US highway (to use an
example near to my home, the town of Brusly, LA).  Other towns/cities
are served by only the US highway system (St. Francisville, LA).  Baton
Rouge, LA (the sub-sector capital), is served by two Interstate highways
(I-10 and I-12), an Interstate system loop (I-110), and at least two
major US highways (US 61 and US 190).  It would be foolish not to build
Interstate highways when they become feasible, and equally foolish to
try to connect every small town with Interstate highways.  Were I the
referee in our current Traveller campaign, I would include a J-5/J-6
network to _supplement_ the J-4 X-boat network.  (As our campaign is on
hiatus, I haven't spoken to the referee about this.)

Further, I would expect that the Imperium has the J-6 equivalent of
Interstate highways, but connecting _only_ major Imperial military
installations and C3I nodes (imagine if the US Interstate highway system
only connected state capitals, major ports of embarkation, and military
bases with immediately-deployable combat assets).  Obviously, these
nodes would get news faster than anything on the civilian J-6 network,
and _far_ ahead of worlds relying on the J-4 (or less) networks.

Caveat distance [YMMV].

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 22:48:51 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1243 

> > Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 13:57:46 -0500
> > From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
> > Subject: Map of the Reaver's Deep sector
> > 
> > Would anyone here on the list (to which I return after an Imperium
> > Games-inspired absence of some months) happen to have a map of the Reaver's
> > Deep sector (and attendant UPPs would be a big bonus!), since my copy of the
> > Atlas of the imperium was lost years ago in a flood?
> 
> http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/traveller/reavers.html
> 
> Keven's got the whole RD on his site...  It's 1115 data I belive perhaps
> modified up to 1126.

Already clued him privately, Derek.  But thanxx for the recommend.  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:33:06 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)

In a message dated 12/4/98 4:58:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< A good summary, but I'll point out that there is a good canon patrol ship:
 the Sydkai Patrol Cruiser from Travellers Digest. (Speaking as a proud
 author, here, so you know I'm unbiased :-)
  >>

Is that the same as the original CT bk 2 patrol cruiser?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:38:29 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (OT)

In a message dated 12/4/98 5:38:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rboleyn@clear.net.nz writes:

<< People mostly just site the Tigress because it looks cool.
 
 Is it the sphere with the wedge chopped out of one side and a box on the
 back? I vaguely remeber something like that and something that looked like
 a whole lot of flat boxes glued together.
 
  >>
That is correct; it's Traveller's "Death Star" (or as I like to say the death
star is Star Wars' Tigress...). Personally; I think that the 200 kiloton
Kokirruk is a much better BB as you get 2 1/2 of them for a single Tigress.
Down side is no fighters, but then again the price of the Tigress doesn't
include the fighters anyway. Lastly; I think the Plankwell (the flat boxes
glued together...) is a mediocre design (agility 5 and 5G...ugh...).

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:40:45 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Things that make you go "Hmmmmm....."

In a message dated 12/4/98 5:54:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< Reminds me of the story about when the US sent some SEALS to cross train
 with their French equivilants during some NATO manuvers.  They were from
 Team 2.  The French word for seal is "Phoque".  The word for two is "Duex".
  The SEALS happily saluted French officers by shouting out "Phoque Duex,
 SIR!" >>

ROFLOL!!!!

(I think that the French were much more interesting under Napoleon....)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:19:19 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Two parsec jumps

Brandon Quina replied to someone else:

>>Isn't possible to, in order to reach a 2-parsec away star, make
>>a jump 1 to the middle of nowere and then make another one to
>> the star?

> That depends on afew things.  The problem with this idea is
> that you need fuel to make the jumps, and most ships will only
> carry enough fuel for one jump. After that one jump, you need
> to refuel if you expect to get back in a reasonable amount of
> time. 
> That's the reason that Rifts are such a deterrant to travel; 
> there's no gas giants there to mine from, no imperial naval
> bases to purchase fuel from.  That leaves you basically
> stranded.

IMTU I've been dealing with this very problem. (late pre-imperial
M:0: I've been assuming the change from TL-11 to TL-12 took place
about the same time Cleon was consolidating his rule, and no, I'm
not going to start over rebuilding MTU if canon says differently)

   The larger military ships all have jump-1 drives with fuel
capacity for two jumps. (It also takes them some 6 weeks for such
a jump--two to jump and four to refuel, just because of their
size and the need to use frontier refueling.)
   Most trade ships are Jump-2 instead of jump-1, because the
internal markets are off the main or separated by worlds where
fuel is hard to get.
   I've decreed that there are "iceballs" such as cometary nuclei
even in systems without a gas giant, so refueling is possible (I
want my J-2 scouts to be able to go take a peek and come back)
but it takes twice as long as normal to refuel from these. 
Desert worlds without gas giants but with spacefaring tech
capture and use these for refined fuel but fuel costs at least
twice as much as it does anywhere else.
   Has anybody done work on the economics of intra-system
hydrogen refinement and transportation? It's on my TTD
list...somewhere after design of intra-system tankers.  This ties
in to techniques of gas-giant refueling. I'm undecided on the
relative merits of high-speed and slow-speed versions.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:40:01 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jumps 

> Brandon Quina replied to someone else:
> 
> >>Isn't possible to, in order to reach a 2-parsec away star, make
> >>a jump 1 to the middle of nowere and then make another one to
> >> the star?
> 
> > That depends on afew things.  The problem with this idea is
> > that you need fuel to make the jumps, and most ships will only
> > carry enough fuel for one jump. After that one jump, you need
> > to refuel if you expect to get back in a reasonable amount of
> > time. 

Don't you mean, after the *2nd* jump?

You're carrying fuel for 2xJ1 and your power plant.  You make your J1, do some 
drive checks, then do your 2nd J1.  Two weeks, plus the time spent doing your 
drive checks and recalcing your position, etc.  Call it a day or 2.

> > That's the reason that Rifts are such a deterrant to travel; 
> > there's no gas giants there to mine from, no imperial naval
> > bases to purchase fuel from.  That leaves you basically
> > stranded.

Depending on how good a jump number you can swing, you can always use tankers 
and/or drop tanks to make the trip.  I would *NOT* wanna try to cross the 
Great Rift in a J1 ship!!!!

> IMTU I've been dealing with this very problem. (late pre-imperial
> M:0: I've been assuming the change from TL-11 to TL-12 took place
> about the same time Cleon was consolidating his rule, and no, I'm
> not going to start over rebuilding MTU if canon says differently)

OK...

>    The larger military ships all have jump-1 drives with fuel
> capacity for two jumps. (It also takes them some 6 weeks for such
> a jump--two to jump and four to refuel, just because of their
> size and the need to use frontier refueling.)

OK, each jump means 1 week in jump space.  That's 2 weeks.  Where you coming 
up with the 6 week figure?  This I don't understand.

>    I've decreed that there are "iceballs" such as cometary nuclei
> even in systems without a gas giant, so refueling is possible (I
> want my J-2 scouts to be able to go take a peek and come back)
> but it takes twice as long as normal to refuel from these. 
> Desert worlds without gas giants but with spacefaring tech
> capture and use these for refined fuel but fuel costs at least
> twice as much as it does anywhere else.

I don't get this, either.  While I have no probs with a Kuiper or Oort Belt, 
howcome refined fuel would cost twice as much?  Granted, getting there ain't 
gonna be a picnic, but still...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 04:49:57 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: survey speed

Survey Speed

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

>        Here's another question for the ever-helpful folks of
>the TML.  I am tryng to sort out exploration dates for MTU. 
>What is a "reasonable" rate of first visit/ survey?  In other
>words, at TL9/10, postlating a healthy economy and government
>interest in growing to the stars, how many worlds could you
>visit and survey per year?  3, 6, 12, 24,
>how-ever-many-you-want?  Trying to come up with a rule of thumb
>for the age of various systems.  Thanks!

  It depends on various factors, including the size of your
exploration fleet, how far they have to go, and how long they can
stay out.
   As a rule of thumb, for your TL I'd say two worlds per survey
vessel within three parsecs of the nearest base,  halved that
for each two parsecs further out. This counts travel time out and
back at a week in system between jumps to allow for fronttier refueling,
plus an average two months in a system taking a close enough look to
see whether it's habitable or already inhabited.
   This also assumes no losses due to hazards. Exploration can be quite
slow at TL 9/10.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:34:16 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: QSDS1.5 Guppy Class Express Boat Tender

Here is a mobile way station, inspired by the Traders and Gunboats unit,
but upgraded to carry 10 Xboats (potentially). Hope it's of use.

Dom
- -----

Guppy-class Express Tender
Designed by Dominic Mooney

This starship was designed using the rules in the Quick Starship Design
System v1.5

UNIVERSAL SHIP DESCRIPTION

Tons 2000           Volume 28000                  Cost in MCr 529.770
Crew: 15            High/Middle Passengers: 0/50
                    Low Passengers: 0
Cargo: 54 Std       Controls: Fib (Bridge)        TL: 13
9 Size
2x Laser Battery: (+4) 1/3-3-2-0
1x ext. grapple (Pinnace)
1 Jump Drive
1 Maneuver Drive (Thruster, 504 MW)
1 Power Plant
208.1 Fuel Rating/Refining(24.0)
1 Sandcasters (35 cans)
A16 P5 J16 Sensors
0 Armour, 16 Structure
Crew Detail:
Captain, 1 Officer, 5 Engineers, 2 Electronic Technicians, 2 Maneuver
Crewmembers, 3 Gunners, 1 Medic

DESIGN SPREADSHEET

Item                              Volume     Power      Area      Cost
Crew
HULL
Open Frame U 2000                            547.0      82.5

DRIVES
Jump drive (1 parsecs)              40.0               168.0     186.7
1.3
Jump fuel for 1 parsecs            200.0

Thruster drive (1G)                 36.0     504.0     126.0     101.0
1.2
Power plants: 1000MW x 1, 500M      53.6               150.0    1500.0
1.8
Power plant fuel (1 year)            8.1

Fuel purification (24.0 hours)      21.0       4.2       0.1

ELECTRONICS
Standard Military Controls           3.9       2.8      24.2       0.2

Medium Military Sensors              4.5     201.2      92.9     262.0
1.2
Advanced Communications                       21.5       2.0     203.0
0.8
WEAPONS
2x Laser Battery: (+4) 1/3-3-2      16.6     122.2      57.0      44.2
2.0
1x Sandcaster Turret (35 cans)       3.0       1.0       0.9      10.0
1.0
AUXILIARY CRAFT
SPECIAL EQUIPMENT
20412x                                  12675.3       0.62147483648

20412x                                  12675.3       0.62147483648

20412x                                  12675.3       0.62147483648

20412x                                  12675.3       0.62147483648

20412x                                  12675.3       0.62147483648

20412x                                  12675.3       0.62147483648

20412x                                  12675.3       0.62147483648

20412x                                  12675.3       0.62147483648

20412x                                  12675.3       0.62147483648

20412x                                  12675.3       0.62147483648

CREW
Captain, 1 Officer

2 Maneuver Crewmembers

5 Engineers

2 Electronic Technicians

3 Gunners

1 Medic

WORKSPACE
14x Workstations                     7.0

Bridge (9 workstations)              4.5

2x Engineering Shop                 12.0       1.2       2.0

Cargo Hold                          54.2

ACCOMODATIONS
64x Small Staterooms               128.0       0.0       2.6

1x Large Stateroom                   4.0       0.0       0.1

TOTALS
                                  1908.4    1403.9     706.4    3281.1
15.0

Sufficient berths for crew for all 10 Xboat berths


(Designed with QSDS: Traveller's Quick Starship Design Software. Copyright
Robert Prior, 1998)

QSDS software for MacOS is available from BITS http://www.bits.org.uk


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 06:00:29 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

In a fit of fevered delirium, I decided to design my own version of the
Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser. I hewed fairly close to Supplement 9:
Fighting Ships, consulting Supplement 5 when I couldn't find what I wanted
there. One change I did make was to use the 40-ton fuel skimmer instead of
designing a 400-ton version, thus this ship has 10 times the number of
skimmers that the Supp. 9 version had :) Thanks go to Hal for his hull
tables, and to both Hal and CmdrX who helped with the design of the fusion
guns. Much of this ship is highly apocryphal from a GT standpoint, but what
the heck, it's my game :)

CREW: 1x Captain, 1x Executive Officer, 2x Pilots, 2x Navigators, 4x Sensor
Ops, 4x Commo Ops, 2x Computer Officers, 4x Screens Officers, 121x
Engineers, 409x Gunners, 7x Medics, 150x Troops, 80x Fighter Pilots, 45x
Small Craft Pilots, plus a frozen watch of 312 additional crew.

60,000 ton USL hull with Heavy compartmentilization, DR 7700, 190 turrets
with three lasers each, 90 turrets with three Sandcasters each, 40 turrets
with two Fusion guns each, 24 Missle Bays with 3,800 missles and 50 missle
racks each, Radical Emissions Cloaking, 2 Command Bridges, hardened (1 Main
Bridge, 1 Auxilliary Bridge), Engineering, 8400 Maneuver, 3600 Jump, 30000
Jump Fuel, 78 Low Berths, 620 Staterooms (62 single occupancy, 385 double
occupancy, 173 normally unoccupied), 6 Sickbay, 120 Utility, Spacedock for
80 fighters, Spacedock for 40 fuel skimmers, 5 Vehicle Bays for 40-ton
pinnaces, 20 Fuel Processors (187.5 hours to purify full load), Meson Screen
(DR 488), Nuclear Damper (25 mile radius), "Factor N" Spinal mount particle
accelerator, 6440 Cargo.

STATISTICS: EMass 377,152.9 LMass 421,400.9 Cost Mcr 26,145.18 Hit Points
868,941 Hull Size Modifier +14

PERFORMANCE: Accel 2.0 G's, Jump 5.

SPECIAL WEAPONS STATS

Weapon                                                            Spaces
Mass        Cost
600-Mj Fusion Gun                                            1.5
12.62         1.58
1,127,610-Mj Spinal Particle Beam                 3,000           27,721
1,741.45

Weapon                                                            Type
Damage            Acc    SS    1/2Dmg            Max         ROF
FP
Fusion Gun                                                        Imp
6d x 380            31        30    3,437 mi.          10,311mi  1/60
24
Spinal Particle Beam                                         Imp          6d
x 14,070       36        30    137,372            412,100    1/60
844

GURPS SPACE COMBAT STATISTICS *

Hull Integrity: 19 Compartmentilization: High
Armor DF: 7 Sandcaster DF: +7 vs. lasers only Meson Screen DF: 3 vs. meson
weapons only PF: 10,000,000

Weapons                                                                FP
Spinal mount particle beam                                  844
Laser turrets
1,330 (7 FP each)
Fusion gun turrets                                                920 (24 FP
each) ONLY for point defense

Missle Type                                                            FP
Qty
SIM-10 Space Missle                                             3
91,200

* The GURPS Space combat system, a version of which is also in Compendium
II, is an abstract system for resolving space battles. It is analagous to
the High Guard system for Traveller, in that it handles large fleets and big
ships a little better (IMO) than the tactical system in GURPS Traveller.

TRANSLATOR's NOTES (not designers, since I didn't make this ship up originally);
This ship is severely underarmored from what it's Armor factor in High Guard
indicated it should be, which was around 18,000 DR in GURPS. The reason for
this, of course, is that it could not match it's performance stats with that
much armor. This leads me to believe that GURPS designed space combat
weapons badly outstrip the ability of ships built with the GURPS vehicles
system and designed for Traveller to defend against them. This ship actually
has more survivability in the GURPS Space combat system than it would in the
tactical game, I believe. In the alternate timeline that GURPS Traveller
represents, space combats are probably MUCH shorter and deadlier.

Allen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1244
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, December 5 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1245



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Higgh Guard Warfare Question (Was Re: Missiles)
Re: Re Life in other systems, B5
Re: Two requests - one from me, one from Ditzie
Re: Survey Speeds
PE Spreadsheet again (Sorry)
Women, Mental Health and Life in other systems
Re: Jump-6 courier networks
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Courier networks
re:  GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
Re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)
Citizens of the TML
Re: Women, Mental Health and Life in other systems (long)
Re: Two parsec jump
Re: Smuggling

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:04:44 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Higgh Guard Warfare Question (Was Re: Missiles)

At 10:14 PM 04/12/98, you wrote:
>>        Also, keep in mind, that it is an economics issue...  if you have
>>"x" batteries of defenses, I need "x+1/odds of hitting" to overwhelm your
>>defenses and frag it.  The bottom line is after I have fired my "n" missiles
>>at you and actually immolated your ship, is that cheaper than what it cost
>>you to buy your ship?  If yes, I win.  If no, you win.
>
>One laser costs KCr 250 under HG. One ship-wrecker missile costs MCr 2.
>
>Ian Whitchurch

        Hi, Ian!
        Here is an odd question...  I don't see it spelt out any where in
HG, and you seem to be pretty savvy on all things Traveller.  What is the
ratio of defenses vs attacks?  In our one-shot-shipwrecker (OSSW)
discussion, can one battery of lasers engage an infinite number of missiles?
Or is it one battery vs one attack?  I have always figured it would be the
latter, by a couple of remarks people have made are making me wonder.
        The reason I ask, is because, obviously, if it is a 1:(Big Number)
relationship, then OSSW-type weapons *are* ineffective...  the defender
*can't* be overwhelmed until you've beaten them up with something else...
at which point you might as well finish them off with it.  On the other
hand, if you have a 20-defenses ship, I need to fire 20+1 OSSW's at it;
probably cheaper than the ship's cost.
        I get the impression in G:T, a given mount can attack as many things
as it has ROF, which means that OSSW's are certainly a bad investment in
that system.  What about other Traveller variations?
        Apologies in advance for so many questions and so many odd-angle
discussions.....

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:43:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re Life in other systems, B5

In mail you write:

> At 11:10 AM 12/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>In a similar vein, I was wondering what the effect of a large celestial
>>body would have on the human body.  Many mainworlds seem to be moons of gas
>>giants, Regina is one, and based on the effect that the moon has on the
>>human body, I wonder what effect that type of environment would have.
>>Would the incidents of "moon madness" increase, or perhaps would the body
>>adjust to the forces?
>
> Having that bloody great disk overhead might cause some nervousness.
> Perhaps someone better at math could tell me how much of Regina's sky is
> taken up by Assinbola?  IIRC, Assinbola is a Size 60 GG, and Regina is 45
> diameters out.

This is actually *easy* to figure out. All you need is some simple
trig. Regina is 45 diameters out. So if we construct a right triangle
joining the center of Regina, the center of Assinbola, and the "edge"
of Assinbola, we have the line from Regina to Assinbola being 90 times
as long as the line that's the radius of Assinbola. So the *angle* has
a tangent of 1/90th. Which is .64 degrees. Times 2 to get the other
half of the planet = 1.27 degrees. This is much larger than the full
moon, but not especially large. It's about 1/40000th of the visible
sky. 

Try making a 1" circle and holding it 45 inches from your eye. A US
quarter or a Susan B. dollar are about an inch in diameter (one's a bit
under, the other is a bit over). *That* is how big Assinbola will be. 

BTW, 45 diameters out seems a bit much.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:58:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Two requests - one from me, one from Ditzie

In mail you write:

> By the way, Ditzie wants to know how big a stereo system you need at TL12
> to be heard through Battle Dress' sound dampers at a kilometer and a half.

I know *just* the design. Since I don't have the design rules, someone
else will have to come up with exact figures and costs.

It was discovered back in the 20th century AD that the plasma column of
a flame could be modulated electromagneticly to act as a *very* high
fidelity sound output device. It was only a lab curiosity because the
flame had to be high purity. 

But it should be possible to build such a "speaker" around the exhaust
of a HEPlar of fusion rocket engine. The sound output would be directly
related to the *thermal* power output of the engine (hint the Space
Shuttle main engines are 46 gigawatts!).

Trust me, speakers with gigawatt (much less *terawatt*) outputs *will*
be heard regardless of whatever is in the way. 

I see two markets for such devices. The smaller ones (up to, say half a
million newtons of thrust) would be used by "rock bands" for mega
concerts. And possibly by dictators for PA systems for thier speeches.

The larger units will be used miltarily. Either for psych warfare, or
as sonic weapons. These things can produce the subsonic frequencies
that do various nasty things (epiletic seizures, nausea, even death).
Ditto for ultrasound. Only drawback is that (at least for the
subsonics) the sound pattern has to *center* on the "speaker", and
*can't* be shielded against. Thus they'll have to be operated remotely.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:08:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Survey Speeds

In mail you write:

>> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:15:42 PST
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> Subject: Re: Survey Speeds
>> 
>> Spaceborne telescopes of the size of the ones we have now on the
>> ground, as well as things like long baseline optical interferometers
>> will let planets be detected for at least hundreds of parsecs. Gas
>> giants definitely, and a fair number of the others.
>> 
>
> Probably not.  Remember, stars are emitters while most planets are only
> detectable through reflected or reradiated emissions.  VLBI will increase
> resolution, but not sensitivity.  You not only have to spot a planet but
> you have to do so when there is a tremendously bright source (the star)
> very nearby.  The planetary orbit may not be inclined to you in such a way
> to give you a good reading, either.  Detecting planets a couple of parsecs
> away, certainly, and gas giants (especially Jovian or larger emitters) well
> beyond that -- but not "hundreds of parsecs".

Check out the Sept 17, 1998 issue of Nature. There's a paper by a
couple of U of Arizona astronomers about using a "nulling
interferometer" to cancel the light from the star, but not from objects
around it. 

I read about it in the Jan 1999 issue of Astronomy. There's a nice
image showing the gas cloud around Betelgeuse with a nice dark dot in
the center where the star has been cancelled. They made it using two of
the mirrors from the Multiple Mirror Telescope.

So imaging planets *is* possible. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 02:30:12 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: PE Spreadsheet again (Sorry)

Well I found a major bug in my PE spreadsheet (it allowed resources and 
popularity to exceed 15) and have fixed it in version 1.41. If anybody would like 
a copy (it's excel 5) please email me (it zips up to a little over 250Kb and I don't 
have room for it on my 2Mb website, so if anybody can find it a home...)

The spreadsheet calculates:
  GDP
  income
  fixed expenses
  available budget (like thats income - expenses, so that was hard :*>)
  world popularity
  prestigue for single worlds
  has a worksheet for handling multiworld empire prestige.

I'm only an amateur at this so it's "clunky" and some of the formula are the IF 
statements from hell; but I think its useful.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:41:57 -0500
From: "Catherine Tannenbaum" <cat@perkworks.com>
Subject: Women, Mental Health and Life in other systems

First I should say I am about to dive into some waters a lot of men avoid
thinking about, but in order for us to seriously think of us in space we
should consider them. A series of conversations has gotten me thinking.
Now   for a few questions  that I think everyone should chew on when we look
at space travel. I am a woman, and now I am going to get personal.  I am
curious, does anyone know if nasa or anyone else has published information
on the effects to a woman and her cycles in space?
I am on depo provera right now and have never really paid attention to the
moon with my cycles. I don't have any right now. But how does space effect
those who are currently cycling? Is it a gravitational thing. I assume it is
like the tides.
One more thing. About mental health, I like I said am on depo provera (birth
control shot that prevents ovulation)  and therefor have no cycles, so that
does not have an effect on my mental health. I am however a diagnosed
bipolar (manic depresive)  with an anxiety disorder, and on a strict regimen
of medicine as of last year. I can say that when I look now at my health
history, the only correlations I find are...over the years when I have
become severely manic in the past, looking at a calender it happens to
coincide with the waxing of the moon. But that may just be coincidence,
seeing it is not a monthly thing. I am in a better mood during waxing, but
that may just have to do with some other hormonal factors that all women
have.
Are there any thorough studies out there? I have been looking out of
curiosity, and how would space travel effect peoples mental health? I know
nasa has to be thinking about this kind of thing. Anyone out there have any
ideas about mental health and space travel? How about women and travel?
Would a woman still cycle being jumped from one area  to another? If not
remember this, a woman is born with as many eggs as she will have all her
life, unlike men we do not continue making them, imagine a woman of 60 who
has spent a life in space not even close to menopause. How will this effect
women and the way they develop and act over  the years. How will it effect
our life cycles? One more bone to chew on, is there a correlation between
aging and menopause? Women in my family do not begin menopause until their
mid-fifties, and there are a lot of 90 something year olds in my family, do
these have anything to do with each other.

Just a lot of unanswerred questions.
Cathy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:50:11 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 courier networks

David P. Summers writes:

>Actually, this all started with the claim that the info on suspected
>smugglers would be given general distribution at jump-6 (ie via a
>X-boat kind of network).

I see. OK, here is my take on that subject: The basic routine information
that can, when correlated with similar data from other sources, expose
irregularities in merchant traffic would, IMO, go by staid old X-mail.
It would be months before it got collected (at subsector capital level)
and it might or might not be spotted (OTOH, I am convinced that someone,
propably several someones, would try to correlate it eventually. It is
just too useful and to easy a tool for fleet and insurance analysts not
to use).

However, fleet advisories ("Look out for SOLAR QUEEN, it's suspect.") and
warrants, as well as information of known infractions would go by fastest
available means (which may not be very fast from true backwaters) to the
nearest fleet base from where it _would_ be distributed by jump-6 couriers
to all fleet bases. From the fleet bases it would again go catch-as-catch-
can out to the most remote backwater.
 
>(In fact I still keep this original point in mind when I post.
>Perhaps I'm just wierd that way.  :-)

No, you just didn't realize that my aside about the X-boat network was an
aside and not an argument in that discussion.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:18:16 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

Tommy Grav writes:

>You can not compare two 8 billion populations with two 300 million
>populations. What is it the Earth needs to import that we can not produce
>ourself? 

Careful, Tommy, you're messing with one of the basic underpinnings of the
Traveller society. But to answer your question: 1) Luxury goods; 2)
anything that one planet just happens to be more efficient at building than
the other planet.
 
>>Interstellar trade works because of novelty and economies of scale.
> 
>But what is it that Mora produce that Regina can't produce themself?

Assuming for purposes of argument that you had selected two planets with the
same TL for your example, there is propably very little that they couldn't
both produce. But that dosen't mean that they do. If it is cheaper to buy
imported grav cars from Mora than to build them themselves, Reginans will
buy Moran grav cars.
 
>Well, the Imperium is in my view not a good place to make good adventures,
>at least not when it is the way Steve, Hans and you portray. Sorry :-) but
>I don't like it that way. You have no margin for human stupidity or error.

I have no problem with an ordinary level of human stupitity and error. Some
of my best game rationalizations are based on human stupidity. But I do have
a problem when the stupitity necessary to keep a situation stable for
decades seem to require that everybody involved works overtime on being
stupid.

>There is in my view going to be 99% self centered sapien beings in the
>Imperium, each driving towards his own goal. That spells chaos to me,
>not order and perfection. 

Funny, it is precisely because I think a lot of powerful people would be
driving towards their own goals that the stranglehold over information that
the Emperor is claimed to have seems so implausible to me.

>>>Say there is a warrant out for a smuggler. The warrant is sent out
>>>by xboat. Is it sent out in all directions, or in the most likly direction
>>>that the smuggler has gone? When reaching a system, does it automaticly 
>>>go with the next x-boat out, or is it up to the starport sheriff to
>>>send it on? If it is sent on automaticly and the starport sheriff
>>>has arrested the smuggler what then?   

If there is a warrant out for a smuggler, the warrant must be valid under
Imperial law. If it is valid under Imperial law, a MoJ agent will serve it
and (IMTU at least) the navy will back him up.

>>Goes into the starport computer, gets cross-checked with the arrest list
>>and sent on. How do the Norwegian police handle 'Wanted' lists, anyway ?
> 
>But is it handled manually. Is it completly automatic or is someone set to
>verify it. What if the crime the guy is wanted for is not a crime on this
>world?

If he is in the starport or in space the MoJ agent can serve the warrant.
If he is on sovereign planetary soil, he would apply to the local
authorities who might help him or not as they pleased.

>What I was asking for was an oppurtinity to have the Starport Sheriff not
>getting around to verifying the warrant, so that it misses the X-boat out,
>and has to wait for the next.

Given what I know of police forces through time and space (most of it
gotten through reading fiction, admittedly) most authorities will accept
a valid warrant as, well, you know, valid. That is, arrest first and 
verify later. YMMV. 

>>>Why? With an average GDP of 15000Cr (at 4$ per Cr -> 60.000$)
>>>versus the average GDP of under 3000$ today, this is no more than 
>>>a car theft (assuming that the ship is not new). And we know how 
>>>serious the police are about car theft today :-) They routinly call
>>>in the military to get these thieves, just like the IN is taking care
>>>of the pirates. (sarcasme intended ;-)

In Denmark the largest cities have people paid to go round town with lists
of stolen cars and check parked cars. They easily earn their own keep many
times over.

>A car today can cost 200.000$ easily (an expensive one, but say it is a boat
>for sake of argument).

Such a car would not be the equivalent of a 40 year old Free Trader. More a
1000 T luxury yacht.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:27:36 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Courier networks

Walter Smith writes:

>As I said earlier, when your fast courier service is dedicated to
>point-to-point service, you won't have any (or many) problems
>with reliability. Once you add hubs and nexi, you will start having
>problems with missed connections. If your courier leaves every week,
>then missing a connection by a day will cost you a week of time.

If the system gives you a saving of 25 weeks under ideal conditions, you
need to miss a lot of connections to make it less efficient than the
alternative. 

>The X-Boat network can avoid this problem by having enough ships
>to leave daily, or even more often - cutting delays from missed
>connections drastically.

Hmmm. I must go home an re-read what I have about the X-boats. I thought
that they provided weekly service. Is it really daily? And if it is, do
you have any idea of how much it must cost to run it? Try working out
the number of X-boats you'd need for a single link. A weekly courier
network could be run with three ships per link, though admittedly with
no provision for accidents and misjumps, so four ships per link is
more plausible. But that wouldn't come anywhere near the cost of, what,
20 X-boats per link plus the tender?

>I agree there is a niche for point-to-point high jump courier routes,
>but I see them as complementing the X-Boat system.

So do I. But canon says the X-boats are the fastest available means.
That's what I've argued against. Not the existense of the X-boats, but
that they are all there is.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:32:35 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re:  GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

>This ship is severely underarmored from what it's Armor factor in High Guard
>indicated it should be, which was around 18,000 DR in GURPS. The reason for
>this, of course, is that it could not match it's performance stats with that
>much armor. This leads me to believe that GURPS designed space combat
>weapons badly outstrip the ability of ships built with the GURPS vehicles
>system and designed for Traveller to defend against them. This ship actually
>has more survivability in the GURPS Space combat system than it would in the
>tactical game, I believe. In the alternate timeline that GURPS Traveller
>represents, space combats are probably MUCH shorter and deadlier.

This is scary, since High Guard combat was already pretty deadly (one
good meson hit would disable any target...). What it may also signify
is that the balance between PA weapons and MGs is upset, if you can't
carry enough armour to defend against even a cruiser-sized PAW...
(Similarly, at the low end, even small ships can carry enough armour
to defend completely against standard lasers, which is a problem,
especially since G:T has no "surface hit" category.)
Anyone done any battleship designs with G:T yet?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:02:55 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)

Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
>Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:
>
><< A good summary, but I'll point out that there is a good canon patrol
>ship:
> the Sydkai Patrol Cruiser from Travellers Digest. (Speaking as a proud
> author, here, so you know I'm unbiased :-)
>  >>
>
>Is that the same as the original CT bk 2 patrol cruiser?

Nope. We designed a different ship, optimized for long-range anti-piracy
patrols.  Heavy redundancy on all major components, _lots_ of sensors, and
enough weaponry to blow the average pirate/Zhodani scout out of orbit.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 17:07:17 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James Lindsay)
Subject: Citizens of the TML

Man, I haven't posted to this list in *months* (hey, did you hear that
Imperium Games went under?).  I still have over 700 unread messages, too,
but I figured it was about time...

Announcing the who's-who of the TML...

	"Citizens of the TML"

(http://members.home.net/jlindsay/citizens.html)

This database was created well over a year ago (?) and has steadily grown
over that time.  Many of its "members" have no doubt left the list, but
their names have remained nonetheless.  I wish I had the time to monitor
list traffic and delete those who no longer post, but I'd be including
myself in that list.  Anyways, if you want to be added, deleted, or covered
in Mazola, you know what to do...



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

     "Sorry Rabbit, Phasers are for kids..." -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 10:19:03 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Women, Mental Health and Life in other systems (long)

This is all biology related, so unlike physics, it is riddled with 'we think'
'we suspect', and 'possibly'; biology is _so_ messy ;-)

Catherine Tannenbaum wrote:
> 
> First I should say I am about to dive into some waters a lot of men avoid
> thinking about, but in order for us to seriously think of us in space we
> should consider them. A series of conversations has gotten me thinking.
> Now   for a few questions  that I think everyone should chew on when we look
> at space travel. I am a woman, and now I am going to get personal.  I am
> curious, does anyone know if nasa or anyone else has published information
> on the effects to a woman and her cycles in space?

Anything they _have_ published would be on the basis of zero data. IIRC,
Shannon Lucid is the only woman to have spent enough time in space to study
this, and being that she was 53 at the time, I suspect she was
post-menopausal. Oddly, this is one thing left out of her official NASA bio :-)

> I am on depo provera right now and have never really paid attention to the
> moon with my cycles. I don't have any right now. But how does space effect
> those who are currently cycling? Is it a gravitational thing. I assume it is
> like the tides.

Actually, no, it is _not_ like the tides. While our bodies, obviously, are
affected by gravity, they are _not_ really affected by tides. The lunar cycle
correlation with women's menstrual cycles is not really firm, and may be
related to deep seated evolutionary patterns of behavior (and by deep seated,
I mean _really_ deep seated, back to the time when we were multi-cellular
organisms living in the tide pools...not that our lives are dependent on the
cycles of the tide any more, but evolution is a rather thrifty sort of
process, biological mechanisms are re-used in a host of different ways. Genes
find a way to keep themselves useful, and thus conserved.)

> Are there any thorough studies out there? I have been looking out of
> curiosity, and how would space travel effect peoples mental health? I know
> nasa has to be thinking about this kind of thing. Anyone out there have any
> ideas about mental health and space travel? How about women and travel?

Mental health and space travel will have very little to do with space, per se,
particularly in the context of the Traveller universe, which doesn't have to
deal with extended periods of weightlessness.

 Mental health and being cooped up in a small metal box with no outside
stimuli...now, that's something we have _lots_ of information on; we've been
doing that for decades, ever since nuclear submarines were invented. 

Cooping people up on small craft for months and months at a time has been done
ever since the invention of the ship. The Polynesians made epic journeys
through the South Pacific, in tiny boats, using only TL-0 starmaps as a guide.

We know a lot about keeping people sane when cooped up like that. Much of it
has to do with picking the right people to start with. ObTrav, this is done at
chargen, since any PC who can't Travel doesn't get very far. The other is
keeping them stimulated. In the Navy's case, this tends to be a) making sure
they're kept busier than hell and b) making sure that the parts of the
environment you _can_ control are varied, which is one reason why nuke subs
are reputed to get the best cooks in the Navy. ObTrav...I wonder how much of
the Low Automation typical in mil-spec ships are due to needing something to
keep the crew busy as much as damage control and decentralization?

More important to mental health is the regular rhythm of day and night.

In the absence of time signals, people's circadian clocks shift from the
24-hour to a variable number between (about) 18 and 32 hours. This has been
established with volunteers living for months at a time in stable,
time-reference free environment, such as well lit deep caves, which have
constant temperature, humidity.

These studies indicate that humans do have an individually variable circadian
rhythm. I would guess, however, that several humans living in close proximity
would settle on a common day/night cycle.

 This is akin to the well-known phenomonon that women living in _close_
proximity (like room mates), _tend_ (not invariably) to synchronize their
menstrual cycles, probably, we suspect, via pheromone signals. This is
probably an evolutionary adaptation to limit a human 'packs' attractiveness to
predators (one of the things NOT to be doing in bear country is be having your
period...this is also known for other predators, including big cats). 

BTW, this susceptibility to predators is also the probable biological basis
for the practice in many cultures of segregating women having their period in
separate areas from the rest of the tribe. 

Dragging this back to Trav, the big thing facing Travellers will be the 53rd
Century equivalent of jet-lag, called (I say in a burst of utter
non-creativity ;-) jump-lag. You go in a week from someplace that has a 20
hour day, and 0.7 gee to one that has a 30 hour day and 1.3 gee. Much shorter
or longer, and people will start, I think, adapting in different fashions,
basically by keeping time on a different clock than the planet they're living
on, probably by manipulation of the immediate environment; basically, they'll
live in arcologies. Gravity you'll just adjust to.

I suspect one thing that occurs in a weeks jump is cycling the gravity from
the planet you just left to the one you're going to, _particularly_ if you're
going from lower to higher, and changing the day cycle to match the new 'day'.

This won't be necessary for any trip where you might just unload, load, fuel
up and go...there you'll maintain some sort of constant ships environment. But
anywhere you plan on staying some time you'll be acclimatizing yourself.

This is a crucial thing for people like IN troops or Merc companies, which may
be in combat soon after arrival. This will lead, I suspect to pharmacological
and other adjustments. (Some current research has shown really odd things,
like shining light on the back of your knee can help you overcome jet lag quickly.)

Bruce Johnson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:24:44 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump

Keven Pittsinger replied:

>Don't you mean, after the *2nd* jump?

>You're carrying fuel for 2xJ1 and your power plant.  You make
>your J1, do some drive checks, then do your 2nd J1.  Two weeks,
>plus the time spent doing your drive checks and recalcing your
>position, etc.  Call it a day or 2.

I think he specified that "most ships" have fuel for just one J1.
IMHO 2xJ1 designs should be more common in early starfaring
settings where J2 isn't possible or feasible. J1 routes along mains require
reasonable development of the infrastructure.

>> The larger military ships all have jump-1 drives with fuel
>> capacity for two jumps. (It also takes them some 6 weeks for
such
>> a jump--two to jump and four to refuel, just because of their
>> size and the need to use frontier refueling.)

>OK, each jump means 1 week in jump space.  That's 2 weeks. 
>Where you coming  up with the 6 week figure?  This I don't
>understand.

   PE and IS give incompatible figures on how many 90,000 dton
top-of-the line battleships Sylea should be able to afford. After
some fudging I settled on a fleet of 10 plus about twice as
many 50,000 dton cruisers.
   These were designed as partially streamlined, but the very
thought of sending one of their capital ships deep into a gravity
well to do its own frontier refueling gives Admirals the
screaming heebie-jeebies.  (Military ships can't rely on purchasing fuel,
refined or otherwise, most places they go).  Routine operations
require a few dozen 10,000 dton fuel supply ships to go along with a battle
group to do the skimming and refining.  At a couple of days a
pass, it takes either a while or several tankers at once to top
up just one of the big fellows.  4 weeks is my SWAG for how long
"a while" is for a typical group.  Wartime conditions would speed
this up a little, but IMTU the war with the Chanestin kingdom
which will whip the Navy back into fighting trim hasn't started
yet.

>> (I
>> want my J-2 scouts to be able to go take a peek and come back) 
>> but it takes twice as long as normal to refuel from these. 
>> Desert worlds without gas giants but with spacefaring tech
>> capture and use these for refined fuel but fuel costs at least
>> twice as much as it does anywhere else.

>I don't get this, either.  While I have no probs with a Kuiper
>or Oort Belt, how come refined fuel would cost twice as much? 
>Granted, getting there ain't gonna be a picnic, but still...

Some corporate bigwig on a world that resembles Venus with less
atmosphere and doesn't have any gas giants handy decides water is
too scarce as it is to go pumping hydrogen by the ton into every
passing merchant, but he still wants them to come by.  He gets
the bright idea to fund a few tugs to go out and haul in an
iceberg or few from the outer system to somewhere near the
starport.  OK, who's gonna pay the overhead on this little
operation? Charging only twice as much as where you can just pump
water out of the nearest ocean into your refinery is a conservative 
guess.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:24:50 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Smuggling

Steve Hudson replied:

...
>>But they do accumulate and burden the communication system. If
>>a message is actually a list composed of independent elements
>>(e.g. a cargo manifest or ship itinerary) and there is any
>>possibility of forgery, that's only a different kind of
>>nightmare.

>  If they're transported on compact media (~CD) and the
>duplicates aren't kept on file then the level of traffic could
>easily be tolerable. While inserting false data into the stream
>must be possible, the main point of  collating all this data is
>to look for anomalies - like the ship that picked up one thing
>and delivered something else/somewhere else.

Such lists coming by different routes tend to pick up strings of
amendments and amendments to the amendments and variations of
amendments to the amendments to the amendments.  This kind of
thing is what keeps textual critics employed, BTW.  I don't
believe there is any such animal as even an up-to-date starship
registry over as small a region as a subsector. Cargo tracking is
bound to be even harder.

>Again, a system to double-check traffic doesn't need 
>to be fast unless you're trying to figure out which ship is the
>commerce raider - for which direct methods will likely be much
>better.

Agreed.

>>So your list is relevant and reliable, but it's still slow to
>>get out and doesn't include those who looked innocent but
>>weren't, or even those who only looked a little odd.  How many
>>forms of mopery and dopery in the spaceways qualify for
>> inclusion on your "Imperium's most wanted" list? The bigger it
>> is, the harder it is to manage.

>  Slow to get out, but probably a lot faster over a sector or
>two than a tramp freighter.

Relevant and reliable where it takes weeks to collect information
from a subsector means months and years before it gets back.  You
can combat large-scale and long-term crimes that way, but
"small", mobile, short term operations need different methods,
and are best handled at the local level.

>I'd go with threats to internal security (piracy, hijacking -
>smuggling is peripheral due to the use of it as a cover for
>fencing, and enemy intel ops), major economic crimes, and 
>serious crimes against persons (murder, assault & battery,
>kidnapping, rape). 
I don't know what crime rates are IYTU, but dealing in smuggled
or stolen property seems to be just too common for the Imperium
to give it much attention. There are a lot more things to steal
and a lot more ways to do it than piracy can account for.
As for serious crimes against persons...make that against nobles,
for the Imperium to get involved. Anybody else gets referred to
the local authorities, or if they don't have jurisdiction, the
local bounty hunter.
 
...
>>Some TUs or sectors of them have several such "utter dumps" for
>>every class A starport.

> "I don't **** care about any" other TU's :) - well, except the
>OTU :).

Which OTU? Which sector? When?
I don't have any problem considering places like the Glimmerdrift Reaches
to be out in the sticks compared to the Imperial core. 

...
>   A good analogy would be trying to run your shipping data
>collation system through some sort of mail system between any
>two sites. You can use any size or kind of diskette you want,
>but no phone lines and nothing can travel faster than 20mph. 
>Also remember that computing technology between different sites
>might vary from Classic Roman Digital to Pentium
>whatever-the-latest-version.

>  Similar systems worked fairly well before computers - or
>electronic communications of any sort. 

For instance?

>Perhaps you should discuss when a cost is petty/trivial with Mr.
>Summers :)  More seriously, the fact remains that MCr 60 is a
>value that will fund a substantial effort to prevent and/or
>recover a loss.

Again, it depends. For instance, whether Cr1000 is "a lot
of money" depends on whether you measure your weekly income in
tens of credits or millions. 

 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1245
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, December 5 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1246



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Corsairs
Re: More toys from Ditzie
Re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)
[OT} re:  Pocket Books
? for Marc and the rest of the TML
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1245
Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network
"Virus" - A new movie of interest to TNE fans
Re: G:T or T5
Re: ? for Marc and the rest of the TML
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1245
Re: Famile Spofulam
Re: Women, Mental Health and Life in other systems
Re: Transporting fuel insystem

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:24:54 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Corsairs

>>   I'd consider "corsair" type ships to be built by government
>>subsidy for the use of privateers: They tend to be purchased at
>>a steep discount compared to other types of ships. If the
>>government recoups any of its investment, they're cheaper than
>>pure warships. They also tend to be written off as destroyed or
>>missing in action...only to turn up in the hands of pirates a
>>few years after the war is over.

>Why not use them as legitimate Mercenary Cruisers or as Frontier
>Traders ?

Naturally, those are the kinds of post-war uses a government usually
intends, and it is what "honest" people do with them. Unfortunately,
privateering has an observable tendency to attract people with fewer moral
scruples than the general population. I'd call it a substantial minority of
privateers that turn full pirate.

>>   Even if just having posession of a starship makes you filthy
>>rich compared to the celebrated man in the street, how often is
>>a pirate ever going to sell the thing for more than a few
>>percent of its original price? I don't think it would be often
>>enough to even retire in comfort.

>There are several problem with this, at least as far as the
>Marches goes. Firstly, there are several areas (Sword Worlds,
>Vargr Extents, Federation of Arden) that would not ask too many
>questions about a ship's previous ownership history. In the case
>of the Vargr, go two or three governments over, and I dont think
>they'd care at all.

>Secondly, there is very little functional difference between a
>Frontier Trader, a Mercenary Cruiser and a Pirate ... big cargo
>hold, better armament and maneuver than most merchants, big
>passenger capacity.

Pirates selling their own or a captured ship have problems getting good
prices because they have problems producing clear title and a ship in good
condition.  Semi-legitimate dealers want a discount for having to deal with
these problems themselves.  I wouldn't count on the areas outside the
imperial borders that don't ask questions to pay top credit, either.

IMO Killed, captured, and shipwrecked are the standard piracy retirement
options: retiring wealthy is something every pirate dreams of but few ever
do.

 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 12:55:19 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: More toys from Ditzie

"Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

>Question for Ian:  Is "Famile Spofulam" written up anywhere?

Roderick distributed a ZIP file of all the original FS material. Ian
carries the flame. There may be some write ups on the ISBA site? Craig?

Dom

(PS The Famille's personal weapons division has been doing some work for
BITS' forthcoming 101st Spaceborne, which I can now get back to after
finishing the website ;-) ).

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:00:51 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:
><< A good summary, but I'll point out that there is a good canon patrol ship:
> the Sydkai Patrol Cruiser from Travellers Digest. (Speaking as a proud
> author, here, so you know I'm unbiased :-)
>  >>
>
>Is that the same as the original CT bk 2 patrol cruiser?

Nope - bigger 2kdT
16 USP Factor 3 Missile batteries 1500 battery rounds
16 USP Factor 4 Beam Laser batteries
M3 J3
Interstellar Passive EMS
Far Orbit Active EMS
EMMask
Def DM+11
Agility 1
Computer 9fib
46 ships troops

It's a well designed long endurance Kinuir in MTJ3

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 03:48:04 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@iinet.net.au>
Subject: [OT} re:  Pocket Books

>A bit expensive for the GM's assistant, but, at least it can do a lot more
>than the M$ WinCE toys on the market.

And if I can wipe Apple's crummy OS and install Linux, I might even be
tempted to buy one *G*

Slainte,




Mick Bailey
mickb@iinet.net.au
solomani.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 11:53:25 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: ? for Marc and the rest of the TML

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0156_01BE2045.DDCD3CC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'll try to send this to the list this one last time.  I seem to be =
having problems getting stuff to post from work or from my home e-mail, =
so I've re-subsribed to the list from home.


Hello all,

I'm a long-time Traveller player (early 80's) that's been lurking on the
TML for only a short while.  In my "spare" time, I'm a computer artist = (you
can see a couple Traveller images at my website), sculptor, 2d artist, = sfx
makeup artist, videographer, etc, etc.

I'm going to shortly start creating vacuum formed & cast props of = Traveller
equipment for use by myself & some of my friends for use at SF = conventions
and for a private, independant (i.e. un-releasable) short film I want to
shoot based on one of the games that I've run in the past.  Equipment
included will be battledress (or at least combat armor :), = PGMP's/FGMP's/PCMP's,
gauss rifles, and some other misc bits & pieces of kit.

My question for Marc is this:  Is it possible to sell these props to = other
TML'ers & fans without licensing arrangements as long as they are not
marketed directly as Traveller Battledress, Traveller Gauss Rifle, etc?  = If
that is not possible, what about selling them for COG (Cost Of Goods) = only
compared to including labor?  And if THAT's not possible, can you please
contact me directly at one of the e-mail addresses listed below to = discuss
licensing?

My question for the rest of the TML'ers out there, who by there very
definition are hard-core fans of Traveller, is if these are available,
would you be interested in purchasing them?  I'm not looking at =
outrageous
prices (like $700 for a suit of Stormtrooper armor on the web), more =
like
COG + maybe 75%-90%.    That additional % helps defray the development
costs and the hours upon hours scupting, vac-forming, trimming, sanding,
painting, etc.  This is definately not profit making, more a labor of =
love
by myself (kinda' like websites :)  I'd appreciate everyone's comments.

Best Regards,
Jesse DeGraff
www.vision-forge-graphics.com/computer.htm  (this is the page that has = the
Traveller CGI that I've currently got up)
jesse_degraff@acer.com
jesse_degraff@vision-forge-graphics.com
fenris@slip.net


- ------=_NextPart_000_0156_01BE2045.DDCD3CC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'll try to send this to the list =
this one last=20
time.&nbsp; I seem to be having problems getting stuff to post from work =
or from=20
my home e-mail, so I've re-subsribed to the list from home.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello all,<BR><BR>I'm a long-time =
Traveller=20
player (early 80's) that's been lurking on the<BR>TML for only a short=20
while.&nbsp; In my &quot;spare&quot; time, I'm a computer artist =
(you<BR>can see=20
a couple Traveller images at my website), sculptor, 2d artist, =
sfx<BR>makeup=20
artist, videographer, etc, etc.<BR><BR>I'm going to shortly start =
creating=20
vacuum formed &amp; cast props of Traveller<BR>equipment for use by =
myself &amp;=20
some of my friends for use at SF conventions<BR>and for a private, =
independant=20
(i.e. un-releasable) short film I want to<BR>shoot based on one of the =
games=20
that I've run in the past.&nbsp; Equipment<BR>included will be =
battledress (or=20
at least combat armor :), PGMP's/FGMP's/PCMP's,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>gauss rifles, and some other misc =
bits &amp;=20
pieces of kit.<BR><BR>My question for Marc is this:&nbsp; Is it possible =
to sell=20
these props to other<BR>TML'ers &amp; fans without licensing =
arrangements as=20
long as they are not<BR>marketed directly as Traveller Battledress, =
Traveller=20
Gauss Rifle, etc?&nbsp; If<BR>that is not possible, what about selling =
them for=20
COG (Cost Of Goods) only<BR>compared to including labor?&nbsp; And if =
THAT's not=20
possible, can you please<BR>contact me directly at one of the e-mail =
addresses=20
listed below to discuss<BR>licensing?<BR><BR>My question for the rest of =
the=20
TML'ers out there, who by there very<BR>definition are hard-core fans of =

Traveller, is if these are available,<BR>would you be interested in =
purchasing=20
them?&nbsp; I'm not looking at outrageous<BR>prices (like $700 for a =
suit of=20
Stormtrooper armor on the web), more like<BR>COG + maybe=20
75%-90%.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; That additional % helps defray the=20
development<BR>costs and the hours upon hours scupting, vac-forming, =
trimming,=20
sanding,<BR>painting, etc.&nbsp; This is definately not profit making, =
more a=20
labor of love<BR>by myself (kinda' like websites :)&nbsp; I'd appreciate =

everyone's comments.<BR><BR>Best Regards,<BR>Jesse DeGraff<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/computer.htm">www.vision-for=
ge-graphics.com/computer.htm</A>&nbsp;=20
(this is the page that has the<BR>Traveller CGI that I've currently got=20
up)<BR><A =
href=3D"mailto:jesse_degraff@acer.com">jesse_degraff@acer.com</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:jesse_degraff@vision-forge-graphics.com">jesse_degraff@vis=
ion-forge-graphics.com</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:fenris@slip.net">fenris@slip.net</A><BR></FONT></DIV></BOD=
Y></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0156_01BE2045.DDCD3CC0--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:21:32 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1245

>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:32:35 -0800
>From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: re:  GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
>
>>This ship is severely underarmored from what it's Armor factor in High Guard
>>indicated it should be, which was around 18,000 DR in GURPS. The reason for
>>this, of course, is that it could not match it's performance stats with that
>>much armor. This leads me to believe that GURPS designed space combat
>>weapons badly outstrip the ability of ships built with the GURPS vehicles
>>system and designed for Traveller to defend against them. This ship actually
>>has more survivability in the GURPS Space combat system than it would in the
>>tactical game, I believe. In the alternate timeline that GURPS Traveller
>>represents, space combats are probably MUCH shorter and deadlier.
>
>This is scary, since High Guard combat was already pretty deadly (one
>good meson hit would disable any target...). What it may also signify
>is that the balance between PA weapons and MGs is upset, if you can't
>carry enough armour to defend against even a cruiser-sized PAW...
>(Similarly, at the low end, even small ships can carry enough armour
>to defend completely against standard lasers, which is a problem,
>especially since G:T has no "surface hit" category.)
>Anyone done any battleship designs with G:T yet?
>
>Bruce



I could have probably given the ship the 18,000 DR, since there is a fair
amount of cargo space, by increasing the maneuver drive to the proper level;
I may even go back and do that now. But the purpose of what I was doing when
I built it was to do as close a conversion from CT as I could get. Different
systems will require slightly different optimization. But even with 18,000
DR, the PAW spinal mount listed in GT, let alone the one this ship has, will
tear through the armor pretty good.


Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:49:29 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stock trading was Re: Jump-6 courier network

	As I recall, there was an article in an old JTAS ( I have it in BOJTAS Vol 2,
which means it's in one of the Journals 5-8) that dealt with stock exchanges
and trading in Traveller.  Might give some folks a place to start, or serve as
food for thought.

	DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:54:00 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: "Virus" - A new movie of interest to TNE fans

Last night while at the movies (for the remake of Psycho) I saw a coming
attraction for a new movie called "Virus".

As far as I could tell from the trailer, it's the story of an alien AI that
is beamed through space. It overtakes Mir. Then, using the  communications
array, it manages to get on board a Russion science vessel in the middle of
the ocean.

The random scenes they showed in the trailer made it look very much like the
particular Virus we've all come to know and love (or hate).

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:09:00 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: G:T or T5

In a message dated 12/3/98 13:57:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cjbrain@bigpond.com writes:

<< Which will be the best system ? >>

	For what it's worth...
	
	I believe that T5 will be the way to go, even though it will be a little
while before it arrives (Mr Miller says mid- to late 99)  This is due to the
fact that he is writing it himself, and refuses to release it until it is done
completely and with as few errors as is possible ( he is not willing to make
the same mistake that Imperium Games did by not editing, checking or
playtesting) before rushing release simply to have it on the shelf at GenCon.

	However, the GT supplements are also worth purchasing now.  Many of them have
almost no game mechanics in them...they are simply packed with info that can
be used with ANY Trav system.  One in particular is Behind the Claw...no game
rules or mechanics, just info on the history of the Spinward Marches,
including a write-up on EVERY world in the sector.

	This is all, of course, IMO.

	DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:29:11 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: ? for Marc and the rest of the TML

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE205B.A01201C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


   =20
   =20
    Hello all,
   =20
    I'm going to shortly start creating vacuum formed & cast props of =Traveller
    equipment for use by myself & some of my friends for use at SF =conventions
    and for a private, independant (i.e. un-releasable) short film I =want to
    shoot based on one of the games that I've run in the past.  =Equipment
    included will be battledress (or at least combat armor :), =PGMP's/FGMP's/PCMP's,
    gauss rifles, and some other misc bits & pieces of kit.   =20
    My question for the rest of the TML'ers out there, who by there very
    definition are hard-core fans of Traveller, is if these are =available,
    would you be interested in purchasing them?  I'm not looking at =outrageous
    prices (like $700 for a suit of Stormtrooper armor on the web), more =like
    COG + maybe 75%-90%.    That additional % helps defray the =development
    costs and the hours upon hours scupting, vac-forming, trimming, =sanding,
    painting, etc.  This is definately not profit making, more a labor =of love
    by myself (kinda' like websites :)  I'd appreciate everyone's =comments.
   =20
    Best Regards,
    Jesse DeGraff
   =20
   =20
    If Marc gives the OK, I'm in.(I'll need some pricing of course)
   =20
    Wayne

- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE205B.A01201C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello all,<BR><BR>I'm going to =
shortly start=20
    creating vacuum formed &amp; cast props of Traveller<BR>equipment =
for use by=20
    myself &amp; some of my friends for use at SF conventions<BR>and for =
a=20
    private, independant (i.e. un-releasable) short film I want =
to<BR>shoot=20
    based on one of the games that I've run in the past.&nbsp;=20
    Equipment<BR>included will be battledress (or at least combat armor =
:),=20
    PGMP's/FGMP's/PCMP's,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>gauss rifles, and some other =
misc bits &amp;=20
    pieces of kit.<BR><BR>My question for the rest of the TML'ers out =
there, who=20
    by there very<BR>definition are hard-core fans of Traveller, is if =
these are=20
    available,<BR>would you be interested in purchasing them?&nbsp; I'm =
not=20
    looking at outrageous<BR>prices (like $700 for a suit of =
Stormtrooper armor=20
    on the web), more like<BR>COG + maybe 75%-90%.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
That=20
    additional % helps defray the development<BR>costs and the hours =
upon hours=20
    scupting, vac-forming, trimming, sanding,<BR>painting, etc.&nbsp; =
This is=20
    definately not profit making, more a labor of love<BR>by myself =
(kinda' like=20
    websites :)&nbsp; I'd appreciate everyone's comments.<BR><BR>Best=20
    Regards,<BR>Jesse DeGraff<BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>If Marc gives the OK, I'm =
in.(I'll need some=20
    pricing of course)</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>Wayne</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE205B.A01201C0--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:42:39
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1245

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Higgh Guard Warfare Question (Was Re: Missiles)
>
>        Hi, Ian!
>        Here is an odd question...  I don't see it spelt out any where in
>HG, and you seem to be pretty savvy on all things Traveller.  What is the
>ratio of defenses vs attacks?  In our one-shot-shipwrecker (OSSW)
>discussion, can one battery of lasers engage an infinite number of missiles?
>Or is it one battery vs one attack?  I have always figured it would be the
>latter, by a couple of remarks people have made are making me wonder.

I would phrase an answer to this as 'what is the difference between three
fac one missile attacks and one fac 2 missile attack' ?

Ignore roolz for a second ... you are the Point Defense Officer on a
frigate. You see three missiles inbound. Now, from your perspective in your
crewstation, is this three attacks, or is it one attack ?

My personal solution for HG would be to have a 'partial' result, when
either side gets within one either way of their target roll. A 'partial'
result either halves the USP of the inbound (important for layered
defenses), or puts a +?3? on their damage roll.

I dunno if a Partial should count when dealing with the last missile.

>        The reason I ask, is because, obviously, if it is a 1:(Big Number)
>relationship, then OSSW-type weapons *are* ineffective...  the defender
>*can't* be overwhelmed until you've beaten them up with something else...
>at which point you might as well finish them off with it.  On the other
>hand, if you have a 20-defenses ship, I need to fire 20+1 OSSW's at it;
>probably cheaper than the ship's cost.
>        I get the impression in G:T, a given mount can attack as many things
>as it has ROF, which means that OSSW's are certainly a bad investment in
>that system.  What about other Traveller variations?

Well, a 'standard' laser fires once every 20 seconds, and the FS-designed
FFS2-compliant tech 13 Signature class laser has a rate of fire of four
shots in a ten second period. If we borrow the FFS2 Fire Direction Center
table and use it's 'correction delay' number for indirect fire as the
'correction delay' for point defense fire, then you have a delay of 10
seconds at TL9, 5 at TL10 and negligible at TL11 and up.

I'd say that means a standard laser can tag a lot of missiles, and a
Signature can tag shitloads.

Ian Whitchurch

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Two requests - one from me, one from Ditzie
>
>In mail you write:
>
>> By the way, Ditzie wants to know how big a stereo system you need at TL12
>> to be heard through Battle Dress' sound dampers at a kilometer and a half.
> had to be high purity. 
>
>But it should be possible to build such a "speaker" around the exhaust
>of a HEPlar of fusion rocket engine. The sound output would be directly
>related to the *thermal* power output of the engine (hint the Space
>Shuttle main engines are 46 gigawatts!).
>

Ditzie is drooling, but I *think* she wanted something she could put in her
chopper-wopper. A Heplar unit requires a fusion plant, and Uncie Hengie was
*quite* specific that only chemical power sources and batteries were
allowed (the whole idea of using rotors was to make a popup-capable
aircraft invisible to neutrino and gravitic sensors).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:00:11
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam

>From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: More toys from Ditzie
>
>Sword Worlder wrote:
>> Ian or Katts wrote:
>> >
>> > 'Famile Spofulam Releases New Laser Turrets'
>> [snip the offensive material]
>>
>> Oh! how we suffer.
>[snip the offensive material]
>> Won't someone end the madness...........
>
>
>Nope.  I may not use Ditzie's toys IMTU (as is my choice), but  I
>kind of like the occasional Ditzie post.

Well, everything FS builds is mostly legal under the appropriate design
rules. If you dont like the idea of a nine-gee fast extraction vessel with
3 gee of compensation, a Barbie-scale particle accelerator or a
grav-powered pogo stick capable of reaching low orbit (on Jupiter), fine
... but they can be built. OK, we might leave out the beam pointer on
Barbie's Own Particle Pistol, or not put in a loading or recoil mechanism
on the Plasma Bazooka, but any bending of rules is clearly indicated.

I like writing the Ditzie posts, too. Ditzie is one of my coping mechanisms
when my work gets more enmeshed in a web of self-delusion and doublethink
than usual (the performance figures for Job Network are Thing Man is Not
Meant to Know ... for this a half-billion was spent, an institution
destroyed, and the rule of law and the supremacy of parliament were
trampled on ?).

>
>Question for Ian:  Is "Famile Spofulam" written up anywhere?
>

Well, Roderick Elliot is really responsible for FS. I just took the ball
and ran with it.

Some FS designs are on the THUDDD pages, but most of it is in the TML
archives. Has anyone been keeping a file on FS ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:05:41 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Women, Mental Health and Life in other systems

>Anyone out there have any
> ideas about mental health and space travel? 

Being cooped up in a metal box is an issue.  What people do in jump to keep
themselves occupied hasn't really quite been adequately addressed IMO.  I
wonder if small starship crews don't get sick of each other's faces every
once in a while.

Culture shock, and suddenly being moved to strange environments, could
cause problems.  I imagine depression would be a common problem in these
circumstances.  This would not necessarily be the same as bi-polar
"disorder" depression.

>How about women and travel?

Well, on a small ship, at least, I imagine their cycles would synchronise
very quickly...

> Would a woman still cycle being jumped from one area  to another?

Yes, I think.  Hormonal effects would probably outweigh environmental ones.
 It's also worth remembering that different women have cycles of different
lengths.  It's really only artificial influences like the contraceptive
pill that "standardise" them at any level beyond groups small enough to
cause synchronisation.

On going effects like changes to day-night cycles (and gravity?) will
affect the circadian "clock".  I've got no idea what this will do to larger
cycles.

> Cathy

Alan Bradley
drop-out medical student back in the early '80s

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:24:23
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

>From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Two parsec jumps
>
>   I've decreed that there are "iceballs" such as cometary nuclei
>even in systems without a gas giant, so refueling is possible (I
>want my J-2 scouts to be able to go take a peek and come back)
>but it takes twice as long as normal to refuel from these. 
>Desert worlds without gas giants but with spacefaring tech
>capture and use these for refined fuel but fuel costs at least
>twice as much as it does anywhere else.

One of my feelings about full system generation is that almost all systems
will have multiple refuelling points - the odds of having more than one ice
asteroid, icecap, liquid water source or gas giant seem to be very high,
when all bodies in a system are generated.

I believe that almost no system will have no refueling sources.

>   Has anybody done work on the economics of intra-system
>hydrogen refinement and transportation? It's on my TTD
>list...somewhere after design of intra-system tankers.  This ties
>in to techniques of gas-giant refueling. I'm undecided on the
>relative merits of high-speed and slow-speed versions.

First of all, hydrogen is a very common chemical. I believe that 'mining'
hydrogen should be more than possible just about anywhere.

Well, this is where things get to the pointy end of the Piracy debate - and
just so that everyone is clear on exactly what us anti-Piracy people think,
we hold that piracy around mainworlds is uneconomic. Piracy well away from
mainworlds is more than possible.

Without risk premiums, it is fairly cheap to build a low-gee transport, to
take hydrogen from the refuelling source (gas giant, ice asteroid etc) to
the mainworld's starport.

However, whilst it is fairly simple to secure a single point against armed
civilian ships, it is nearing on the impossible to protect an entire system
from a single point.

In my opinion, fuel shuttles on interplanetary runs make good targets for
pirates, which means the shuttles need to be escorted by combat-capable
vessels.

Now, this increases the cost of transporting the hydrogen, to an absolute
maximum of the cost of shipping the hydrogen in from another mainworld, or
from the refining point to the mainworld via jumpspace (probably Cr 850 per
dton or so).

But I think in general, it would be cheaper to build a hydrogen mine than
to ship the fuel in from other points in the system.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1246
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, December 5 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1247



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Fusion Plus
Re: Two parsec jump 
Re: Higgh Guard Warfare Question (Was Re: Missiles)
Re: Courier networks
Re: Fast Couriers
Re: Women, Mental Health and Life in other systems (long)
Re: alpha centauri
Re: Two requests - one from me, one from Ditzie
Re: External armament pods (was Re: Dumber than Mud (OT))
Re: Two parsec jumps
Libel or Slander?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1246
Re: G:T or T5
Re: Famile Spofulam
The Merchantile System and Traveller
The Nature of Hydrogen in Star Systems
re: Courier Networks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:33:55
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Fusion Plus

I have put some thought into Fusion Plus, and I think I know how we can
limit it to use as an auxilary civilian system.

Firstly, nuclear dampers need to be able to turn off fusion plus units.
This will pretty much exclude their use in line of battle, unless you are
fighting forces with no access to TL12 technology.

Secondly, active fusion plus units increase your chance of misjumping to
about 1 in 6. This should mean no-one will use them in starships to power
jump drives.

Fusion plus should therefore be able to be used in grav bikes, to power
civilian lasers and so on, but it should not be able to have any serious
military application, or to be used as the main power system on a starship.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 19:04:44 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump 

> Keven Pittsinger replied:
> 
> >Don't you mean, after the *2nd* jump?
> 
> >You're carrying fuel for 2xJ1 and your power plant.  You make
> >your J1, do some drive checks, then do your 2nd J1.  Two weeks,
> >plus the time spent doing your drive checks and recalcing your
> >position, etc.  Call it a day or 2.
> 
> I think he specified that "most ships" have fuel for just one J1.
> IMHO 2xJ1 designs should be more common in early starfaring
> settings where J2 isn't possible or feasible. J1 routes along mains require
> reasonable development of the infrastructure.

OK...

> >> The larger military ships all have jump-1 drives with fuel
> >> capacity for two jumps. (It also takes them some 6 weeks for
> such
> >> a jump--two to jump and four to refuel, just because of their
> >> size and the need to use frontier refueling.)
> 
> >OK, each jump means 1 week in jump space.  That's 2 weeks. 
> >Where you coming  up with the 6 week figure?  This I don't
> >understand.
> 
>    PE and IS give incompatible figures on how many 90,000 dton
> top-of-the line battleships Sylea should be able to afford. After
> some fudging I settled on a fleet of 10 plus about twice as
> many 50,000 dton cruisers.
>    These were designed as partially streamlined, but the very
> thought of sending one of their capital ships deep into a gravity
> well to do its own frontier refueling gives Admirals the
> screaming heebie-jeebies.  (Military ships can't rely on purchasing fuel,
> refined or otherwise, most places they go).  Routine operations
> require a few dozen 10,000 dton fuel supply ships to go along with a battle
> group to do the skimming and refining.  At a couple of days a
> pass, it takes either a while or several tankers at once to top
> up just one of the big fellows.  4 weeks is my SWAG for how long
> "a while" is for a typical group.  Wartime conditions would speed
> this up a little, but IMTU the war with the Chanestin kingdom
> which will whip the Navy back into fighting trim hasn't started
> yet.

I don't follow this.  Any partially streamlined ship can skim.  Warships are 
designed to be sturdier than civilian ships.  So where's the danger?  I just 
don't see it.  Warships are designed to survive *combat*.  A quick skim run?  
No problem.

Add to this, you'd want your fleet to be able to refuel *fast*, to keep the 
momentum of your offensive going.  If you're gonna be bogged down a month and 
a half every time you jump, you're gonna be screwed blue & tatooed by the 
first fleet designed to skim and scoot.  They'll do an end run around you and 
nail your base while you're stuck at the gas pump.

Keven


tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 19:12:52 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Higgh Guard Warfare Question (Was Re: Missiles)

In a message dated 12/5/98 3:30:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

<< In our one-shot-shipwrecker (OSSW)
 discussion, can one battery of lasers engage an infinite number of missiles?
 Or is it one battery vs one attack?  I have always figured it would be the
 latter, by a couple of remarks people have made are making me wonder. >>

In my HG interpretation (hopefully correct...) it is one battery per attack.
The key is the size (UPP #) of the battery compared to the UPP# of the missile
salvo. As an example a maxed out (factor 9) laser battery is 10 triple turrets
(30 lasers). A maxed out missile salvo (factor 9) comes from a 50 ton bay
(TL15) or a 100 ton bay (TL 14). Less tubes and/or less missiles result in
smaller UPP #"s. Thus a HG designer has a choice: more weaker shots, or less
stronger shots. Thus to figure out if your shipkiller missiles work or not;
you have to buy them in ENTIRE salvos....This one attack per salvo also works
with repulsors, which is fortunate, since a repulsor bay basically eliminates
a salvo automatically. What's even worse is that (damper and black globe)
screens attack EVERY Missile salvo that hits... I think I agree that the SS3
missiles shouldn't be used in HG; not because they can't, but because they
aren't cost effective (though a devious player might buy a few and wait for
defences to be knocked out...)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 19:32:14 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Courier networks

In a message dated 12/5/98 8:29:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, rancke@diku.dk
writes:

<< So do I. But canon says the X-boats are the fastest available means.
 That's what I've argued against. Not the existense of the X-boats, but
 that they are all there is.
  >>

Hmm....How's this canon compromise: the X boat links are the only routes shown
on the starmaps, because the government (Imperium) will only acknowledge their
own information system and they are the ones who publish the maps. 

Call it spite, or refusing to give their private competitors free advertising,
or the conspiracy minded can say that the government doesn't want to admit
that Jump6 exists (which would make them look silly when 99% of TAS members
know of and use jump 6 to pay their dues...:-) ), or whatever reason the
clever SM decides on...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:46:08 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fast Couriers

Fri, 04 Dec 1998 21:28:11 -0600,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>The question then becomes:  _Assuming_ a rationalization of the X-boat
>system (as many have pointed out, a lot of X-boat stops are irrational),
>how many stops are mandated by the (comparatively) short legs of J-4
>couriers?

One would also have to look at how many cases do you have to jump
short because a jump-6 destination in the correct direction is
not available.  However, if the stars really are randomly
distributed, then, in the long run, it should come out in the
wash.



______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:58:12 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Women, Mental Health and Life in other systems (long)

Catherine Tannenbaum wrote:
> Are there any thorough studies out there? I have been looking out of
> curiosity, and how would space travel effect peoples mental health? I know
> nasa has to be thinking about this kind of thing. Anyone out there have any
> ideas about mental health and space travel? How about women and travel?

I'm not an expert in the area, but as far as a I know, generally
the effects on mental health are dominated by being cooped up
in a metal box with limited contatct with society ofset buy
a busy, disciplined schedule and the fact that you are someplace
the most never get to go.

The only psychological effect of space travel that I know
of is that NASA has found that it is fard to read facial
expressions when poeple are floating in different orientations
(I participated in an experiment by some people studying this
on the floor below me).

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:40:34 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: alpha centauri

Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:55:07 +0000, djs@bitslayer.net
>> It did take a couple billion years for mulicellular life
>> to form.  It isn't a sure thing that it alway has to take
>> that long.

>Were there any estimates on how long it took to get something like the
>current
>Nitrogen-Oxygen atmosphere?

You are correct in that it is currently believed that it was rise in
oxygen levels that allows for the formation of multicellular
life.

My undstanding is that this is thought to have occured about
2 billion years ago.  (But it somewhat depends on who's papers
you read).

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:56:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Two requests - one from me, one from Ditzie

- ---Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
> 
> >From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
> >Subject: Re: More toys from Ditzie
> >
> >- ---Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 'Famile Spofulam Releases New Laser Turrets'
> >[snip the offensive material]
> >
> >Oh! how we suffer.  {Little bits of canon fodder all over the place} 
> >How can we allow zealots like this to spue their personal universe
all
> >over our self-involved lives?  Please censure this activity
severely! 
> >Let's drop this thread now, before a flame war takes out the whole
> >Internet.  How can my universe or yours remain pure with this type of
> >post poluting the TML?  Cease! Desist, I say.  Won't someone end the
> >madness...........
> 
> Look, Kengi isnt around ... could somone please run that above
commentary
> on Ditzie's latest through a machine translator a couple of times ?
> 
> I'm sure an English-German-Russian-English translation should
provide much
> amusement.
> 

Come and see the violence inherent in the system!  Help, help, I'm
being repressed! (You saw him repressing me, didn't you.)




==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4+ ?tg ru++ 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:12:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: External armament pods (was Re: Dumber than Mud (OT))

In mail you write:

>> Frankly, given that it's *impossible* to give a fighter enough armor
>> to matter, I think that the standard design for fighters *not*
>> intended to enter atmosphere would be a central support "spar" (sort
>> of like the triangular trusses to be used in the International Space
>> Station). You have the engines, cockpit, and weapons systems off of
>> this.

> Sort of like an "Eagle" from Space:1999, huh ?

Not really. For one thing, it won't be anywhere *near* that
streamlined. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:30:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Two parsec jumps

In mail you write:

>    I've decreed that there are "iceballs" such as cometary nuclei
> even in systems without a gas giant, so refueling is possible (I
> want my J-2 scouts to be able to go take a peek and come back)
> but it takes twice as long as normal to refuel from these. 
> Desert worlds without gas giants but with spacefaring tech
> capture and use these for refined fuel but fuel costs at least
> twice as much as it does anywhere else.

All systems should have *some* "iceballs". But they may be
inconveniently far out. The Kuiper Belt / Oort Cloud are a *long* way
out. 

>    Has anybody done work on the economics of intra-system
> hydrogen refinement and transportation? It's on my TTD
> list...somewhere after design of intra-system tankers.  This ties
> in to techniques of gas-giant refueling. I'm undecided on the
> relative merits of high-speed and slow-speed versions.

Well, iceballs are likely to be a *much* cheaper method. Consider the
difference in cost between setting up a station on Europa or some other
ice moon, and having to constantly keep skimming Jupiter. 

On the moon, you have shielding from any radiation belts, you have
gravity, and you just need to supply a bit of heat and you can deal
with *liquid*.

Transport costs from the moon are slightly cheaper. First because you
don't have to use all the fuel required for the multiple skims, and
second, because you don't need to go as deeply into the gravity well.

If you are dealing with comets or leftover planetesimals in the far
reaches of the system, you lose the advantage of gravity. And the
transport costs will be higher. But they are several ways of dealing
with it. 

First thing you do is encase the body in a reflective "bubble". This
keeps it from evaporating as it gets closer to the star. Not only does
this avoid waste, but the gas jets that would otherwise form can have
significant thrust. 

Next you start digging in. The material will be ices, various organics
and rock dust. The ices will be water, ammonia and methane. You'll want
to seperate them as they boil off. Ammonia is *way* to valuable for
fertilizer and chemical synthesis to break down for hydrogen unless you
are *really* desperate. Nitrogen is one of the hardest to find life
support elements in space. 

Methane is useful too, and a pain to breakdown. All that carbon tends
to gum things up. 

So you store the methane, ammonia, and water seperately. And break down
the water for hydrogen as needed. You keep the oxygen. Note that with a
bit of care and use of the reflective shielding, you can store all of
these as *solids*. 

The other organics will range from traces (in "ice" asteroids) to a
major component ("carbonaceus chondrite" asteroids). They are
*definitely* not worth breaking down for hydrogen, but they're
invaluable for chemical synthesis and as a source for carbon and
nitrogen for life support. 

Finally, there's the rock dust. Other than running it past a magnet to
seperate any nickel/iron it's not worth processing. So it makes good
reaction mass. Use a mass driver to throw bucket fuls of it away at
high velocity. It won't get you moving very fast, but it will get you
headed for the inner system. 

As you approach the inner system you can deploy a solar sail to steer
you into a good parking orbit. By this time, you've likely "refined"
the entire body, and can sell pure water, oxygen, LH2, methane and
ammonia. Also you'll have a good stock of organics and likely some tons
of nickel/iron "dust".

It'll almost certainly take *years* to move the body into the inner
system. It's not worth it to move it in any faster. You wind up eating
into the profits by burning up too much of the body.

But since it'll take at least a dozen people to efficiently erect the
bubble and handle the rest of the tasks (and several dozen might be
better) I can see a prospector locating a suitable body, and selling it
to a group who then go out and bring it in. But *while* they bring it
in, they'll be living on it and turning it into a habitat. 

On the long trip in, it's "home". And they'll get visitors from tankers
coming out to trade supplies for the ices and organics. But tankers
aren't going to move a significant chunk of a body miles across, even
if it takes 20 years to bring it in. 

Once they settle into the final parking orbit, they'll have a basic
space habitat with *huge* "tanks" of water, etc. 

So I'd picture a system accumulating "L5 colony" type habitats as ice
bodies are brought in and converted. By the time they run low on ices
to sell they'll have had the habitat's biosphere running well for a
century or so. And they can trade food for things they need. 

BTW, I'll be willing to bet that space colonies trade food for "life
support sludge" (ie "concentrated sewage" :-) on a weight for weight
basis. That's *required* so that they don't lose valuable organics. The
money and other items will be in *addition* to this.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:52:52 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Libel or Slander?

Hans wrote:

>However, fleet advisories ("Look out for SOLAR QUEEN, it's suspect.") and

That's a malicious slander - or is it libel? - on the crew of the
SolarQueen. Do you work for Intersolar(*)?

Dom (on a Norton trip)

(*) that may be Interstellar but I'm not sure. memory fails me.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:30:59
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1246

>From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Corsairs
>
>>There are several problem with this, at least as far as the
>>Marches goes. Firstly, there are several areas (Sword Worlds,
>>Vargr Extents, Federation of Arden) that would not ask too many
>>questions about a ship's previous ownership history. In the case
>>of the Vargr, go two or three governments over, and I dont think
>>they'd care at all.

<Thad's reply and my next question snipped>

>Pirates selling their own or a captured ship have problems getting good
>prices because they have problems producing clear title and a ship in good
>condition.  Semi-legitimate dealers want a discount for having to deal with
>these problems themselves.  I wouldn't count on the areas outside the
>imperial borders that don't ask questions to pay top credit, either.
>

Top price, no. 50% of fair value, probably. 30% of fair value, certainly.

The problem for pirates in the Marches, IMO, is not in cooking the pigeon,
but catching the pigeon.

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: More toys from Ditzie
>
>(PS The Famille's personal weapons division has been doing some work for
>BITS' forthcoming 101st Spaceborne, which I can now get back to after
>finishing the website ;-) ).
>

Excellent :)

BITS has my permission to put the manportable Plasma Bazooka in the 101st
Spaceborne book. I should also write up some man-portable Particle Guns.

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)
>
>Nope - bigger 2kdT
>16 USP Factor 3 Missile batteries 1500 battery rounds
>16 USP Factor 4 Beam Laser batteries
>M3 J3
>Interstellar Passive EMS
>Far Orbit Active EMS
>EMMask
>Def DM+11
>Agility 1
>Computer 9fib
>46 ships troops
>
>It's a well designed long endurance Kinuir in MTJ3

It looks like a MT design, and the reduced fuel requirements help most
designs.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:42:43 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: G:T or T5

- -----Original Message-----
From: DustyLV769@aol.com <DustyLV769@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, 6 December 1998 10:20
Subject: Re: G:T or T5


>In a message dated 12/3/98 13:57:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>cjbrain@bigpond.com writes:
>
><< Which will be the best system ? >>
>
> For what it's worth...
>
> I believe that T5 will be the way to go, even though it will be a little
>while before it arrives (Mr Miller says mid- to late 99)  This is due to the
>fact that he is writing it himself, and refuses to release it until it is done
>completely and with as few errors as is possible ( he is not willing to make
>the same mistake that Imperium Games did by not editing, checking or
>playtesting) before rushing release simply to have it on the shelf at GenCon.
>
> However, the GT supplements are also
> worth purchasing now.  Many of them have
>almost no game mechanics in them...they
>are simply packed with info that can be
>used with ANY Trav system.  One in
>particular is Behind the Claw...no game
>rules or mechanics, just info on the history
>of the Spinward Marches, including a
>write-up on EVERY world in the sector.
>
> This is all, of course, IMO.


But I'll back it up, "Behind the Claw" is definitely worth it for
all the great little anecdotes about the Domain of Deneb and the
history of the region.
Maybe people who have purchased a lot of BITS stuff may have seen
most of it, but this does collect it all together in one place.

Even the GT rule book has more information in it than rules, and I
felt it worth getting. I always suggest the hardback over the
paperback though, all GURPS paperback books are badly put together
in comparison to, say, White Wolf paperbacks.

Not so sure about the Aliens Supplement yet, haven't seen it, and I
already have most of the old "Alien Supplements" and also the Space
Opera book the new ones are supposed to come from, so we'll see.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:47:44 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam

Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> writes:
> for this a half-billion was spent, an institution
>destroyed, and the rule of law and the supremacy of parliament were
>trampled on ?

Sounds familiar.  When I was a kid I wondered how the "big lie" technique
could possibly work; now I'd all too familiar with it.

My own coping mechanism has been turning current events into Traveller
events. Unfortunately, most of them seem to end up with Oriflamme in
charge of the RC...and I hate distopias as gaming backgrounds :-(

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:16:45 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: The Merchantile System and Traveller

I've been reading Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations recently.  Still not
certain how much I agree with him, but I've read enough to discover how
much he's misquoted by the neocons who run large corporations.  For
example, this is his take on sources of income:

"There are three parts of produce and three original orders of society.
The interests of the proprietors of land is inseparably connected with the
general interest of the society. So also is that of those who live by
wages, but the interest of those who live by profit has not the same
connection with the general interest of the society."

In more detail:

"The whole annual produce of the land and labour of every country, or what
comes to the same thing, the whole price of that annual produce, naturally
divides itself, it has already been observed, into three parts; the rent
of land, the wages of labour, and the profits of stock; and constitutes a
revenue to three different orders of people; to those who live by rent, to
those who live by wages, and to those who live by profit. These are the
three great, original, and constituent orders of every civilized society,
from whom whose revenue that of every other order is ultimately derived."

Concerning those who live by profit:

"The plans and projects of the employers of stock regulate and direct all
the most important operations of labour, and profit is the end proposed by
all those plans and projects. But the rate of profit does not, like rent
and wages, rise with the prosperity, and fall with the declension, of the
society. On the contrary, it is naturally low in rich, and high in poor
countries, and it is always highest in the countries which are going
fastest to ruin. The interst of this third order, therefore, has not the
same connection with the general interest of the society as that of the
other two. merchants and master manufacturers are, in this order, the two
classes of people who commonly employ the largest capitals, and by their
wealth draw to themselves the greatest share of the public consideration.
As during their whole lives they are engaged in plans and projects, they
have frequently more acuteness of understanding than the greater part of
country gentlemen. As their thoughts, however, are commonly exercised
rather about the interest of their own particular branch of business, than
about that of the society, their judgement, even when given with the
greatest candour (which it has not been upon every occasion), is much more
to be depended upon with regard to the former of these two objects, than
with regard to the latter....  The interst of the dealers, however, in any
particular branch of trade or manufacturers, is always in some respects
different from, and even opposite to, that of the public. To widen the
market and to narrow the competition, is always the interest of the
dealers. To widen the market may frequently be agreeable enough to the
interest of the public; but to narrow the competition must always be
against it, and can only serve to enable the dealers, by raising their
profits above what they naturally would be, to levy, for their own
benefit, an absurd tax upon the rest of their fellow-citizens. The
proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this
order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought
never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined,
not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention.
It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same
with that of the public, who generally have an interest to deceive and
even to oppress the public; and who accordingly have, upon many occasions,
both deceived and oppressed it."


How does this relate to Traveller?  Well, IIRC Marc mentioned that he
modelled Traveller economics on the mercantile system, which is what Smith
is describing. While Milieu 0 seems to be firmly in the grip of the 'third
order', IMTU by 1200 the bulk of Imperial officials are nobles, and thus
from the first order.  The purpose of a fief is to provide the noble
independent income, so that they can withstand blandishments from "those
who live by profit".  (The attitude towards merchants in "Mote in God's
Eye" and "King David's Spaceship" are typical IMTU.)

I'm certain that those of you who've studied economics have seen this
before, and can no doubt explain it better than I can, but I thought I'd
throw in the viewpoint of a man who wrote during a period much like
Traveller's.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:11:31 -0800
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: The Nature of Hydrogen in Star Systems

I think I was watching a Nova episode or one of those other PBS science
shows about the creation of star systems.

One of the assumptions was that Hydrogen is the most populous matter in the
universe.  Given a large rotating blob of matter, some of it will combine
due to gravity, eventually forming a star.  As the rest of the matter
collides with itself, it starts forming planets.  However, inside the "ice
line" hydrogen doesn't stick so it just sort of blows past rather than
adding to the mass of the planet.  Beyond this "ice line" it is cold enough
that it's no longer gaseous and thus sticks together.  Right after this
"ice line" you can expect a large Jovian body where most of the liquid
hydrogen is able to form.

I think the point is that only young systems will have no "easy"
refueling.  For these systems only the rocky planets close to the star will
have had time to coalesce from the accretion disk.  For these young
systems, the hydrogen is out there, but it is so spread out that it would
take a prohibitively long time to gather it.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:32:31 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Courier Networks

Hans Ranke-Madsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmmm. I must go home an re-read what I have about the X-boats. I thought
that they provided weekly service. Is it really daily? And if it is, do
you have any idea of how much it must cost to run it? Try working out
the number of X-boats you'd need for a single link.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I thought I'd heard of tens of X-Boats being present in a high-pop
system, but didn't recall where I'd heard that. So I looked at my
copy of Supp. 7, _Traders and Gunboats_, and what did I see on
page 10? 

"High population and high tech star systems can be expected to
have up to twelve xboats present at one time, probably evenly
distributed between arriving and departing ships."

Not near as many as I had thought.

Type-S scouts aren't mentioned, but my reading says that they
are tasked in courier role with communicating with worlds not
directly on the routes - so they're not in that figure, but don't
contribute to how many ships per link the xboat station has
available.

Can you run a daily service to two or three legs of a route with
twelve ships present (six arriving, six departing)?

Let's see, one ship arriving, one ship leaving, six ships currently
in jump space each way - you'd see only three or four ships per
leg (including spares), there would be a lot more in service.

Interesting. It hadn't struck me before that at any given moment,
the majority of active duty x-boats are in jump space.

I would say that even the X-boat system has main lines and backwater
lines. The main trunks probably have daily service all along them,
the lines that feed of it become progressively slower as message traffic
ebbs.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1247
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, December 6 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1248



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Two parsec jump
re: Two parsec jumps
Ditzie's stereo
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Women, Mental Health and Life in other systems
re: two Parsec jumps
World Generation Program
Re: two Parsec jumps
Re: Ditzie's stereo
Re: Libel or Slander?
Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
Re: Two parsec jump 
Re: Pirates :)
Re: Courier Networks
Re: External armament pods (was Re: Dumber than Mud (OT))
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
Re: Con Scenario
Re: Con Scenario
BITS website addition

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:38:30 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump

In a message dated 12/5/98 4:10:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< I don't follow this.  Any partially streamlined ship can skim.  Warships are 
 designed to be sturdier than civilian ships.  So where's the danger?  I just 
 don't see it.  Warships are designed to survive *combat*.  A quick skim run? 
 No problem. >>

Check out Supplement 5; AHL. Though they're partially streamlined; they use
fuel shuttles for mormal refueling. The book stated that skimming was
dangerous for AHL's and they only did them in emergencies. There is a section
in the book that allows for die rolling to prevent fuel tank damage; losing
shuttles (moored externally I guess; though HG design rules require hangers
that need displacement tonnage-ie volume); maneuver drive damage; or even that
all time favorite-loss of control and a one way trip to the bottom of the
gravity well....PC's can use their appropriate skills as DM's. 

Thus, the AHL is the only CT and MT semi-streamlined ship that has this
problem. She is quite a "canon-breaker". She is also (along with the Gazelle)
the only ship with external small craft, in a rule system with no external
craft design rules! (though HG IMPLIES that dispersed structure ships are
built that way-they can launch EVERYBODY simultaneously, but still require
volume dedicated to these craft-what a gip!!). Unfortunately; I am "New Era
challenged", so I have no idea if FF+S. FF+S2, etc., fixed this. Gary; what's
the story with this?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:51:54 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Two parsec jumps

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
BTW, I'll be willing to bet that space colonies trade food for "life
support sludge" (ie "concentrated sewage" :-) on a weight for weight
basis. That's *required* so that they don't lose valuable organics. The
money and other items will be in *addition* to this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reminds me of a tourist planet mentioned in Hitchhikers Guide to the
Galaxy. They had very strict rules on biomass - you couldn't take off
planet more than you brought in. Difference could be surgically removed
at customs.

Tourists were exhorted, when going to the lavatory, to make sure they
got a reciept.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:30:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Ditzie's stereo

In mail you write:

>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: Two requests - one from me, one from Ditzie
>>
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> By the way, Ditzie wants to know how big a stereo system you need at TL12
>>> to be heard through Battle Dress' sound dampers at a kilometer and a half.
>> had to be high purity. 
>>
>>But it should be possible to build such a "speaker" around the exhaust
>>of a HEPlar of fusion rocket engine. The sound output would be directly
>>related to the *thermal* power output of the engine (hint the Space
>>Shuttle main engines are 46 gigawatts!).
>
> Ditzie is drooling, but I *think* she wanted something she could put in her
> chopper-wopper. A Heplar unit requires a fusion plant, and Uncie Hengie was
> *quite* specific that only chemical power sources and batteries were
> allowed (the whole idea of using rotors was to make a popup-capable
> aircraft invisible to neutrino and gravitic sensors).

No way she'll get such a system into the chopper. The power required
just won't fit. But since unshielded personnel could get *killed* by
the thing, she might be able to build one around a chemical rocket
engine (I don't think jet engines reach the power levels she needs). 

I'd say it has to be some sort of drone vehicle. And it can't use the
"speaker" while in flight (the sound output bounces it around the sky
too badly)

A modified ramjet engine *might* work. There *are* ways to make
ramjets start in "still" air (mostly by doing something to force air
down the throat). 

I'm leaning towards "Vox Deus" (voice of god) as the name for this
item. "Divine Thunder" is another contender.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:39:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In mail you write:

>>From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Two parsec jumps
>>
>>   I've decreed that there are "iceballs" such as cometary nuclei
>>even in systems without a gas giant, so refueling is possible (I
>>want my J-2 scouts to be able to go take a peek and come back)
>>but it takes twice as long as normal to refuel from these. 
>>Desert worlds without gas giants but with spacefaring tech
>>capture and use these for refined fuel but fuel costs at least
>>twice as much as it does anywhere else.
>
> One of my feelings about full system generation is that almost all systems
> will have multiple refuelling points - the odds of having more than one ice
> asteroid, icecap, liquid water source or gas giant seem to be very high,
> when all bodies in a system are generated.
>
> I believe that almost no system will have no refueling sources.

But the avialable sources may take *years* to reach. Figure out how
long it takes to get to Pluto (inner edge of the Kuiper Belt) *without*
using jump. 

>>   Has anybody done work on the economics of intra-system
>>hydrogen refinement and transportation? It's on my TTD
>>list...somewhere after design of intra-system tankers.  This ties
>>in to techniques of gas-giant refueling. I'm undecided on the
>>relative merits of high-speed and slow-speed versions.
>
> First of all, hydrogen is a very common chemical. I believe that 'mining'
> hydrogen should be more than possible just about anywhere.

Lots of luck on Mercury or Venus. Mercury is definitely very poor in
volatiles. And "skimming" from Venus would be a *major* undertaking.
It'd take a *long* time to collect enough hydrogen to do you any good.
The surface is too hot to retain any hydrogen and the temp & pressure
making landing out of the question anyway.

The moon *may* have some minable ice. Mars does have ice. The question
is how much is water and how much is CO2, as well as how "dirty" it is.

Remove Earth and Mars from the Solar system and you'd have to go clear
to Jupiter to find a practical source of hydrogen. 

> Without risk premiums, it is fairly cheap to build a low-gee transport, to
> take hydrogen from the refuelling source (gas giant, ice asteroid etc) to
> the mainworld's starport.

But it taks a *long* time to transport any significant amount. You
either need a *lot* of ships in the "pipeline", or you need to be able
to move the source closer to the port. Neither is cheap. Operating
costs will eat you alive. 

Just work out trip times from the gas giant and how much hydrogen you
can haul. Then figure how much is likely needed. You'll wind up with a
virtual conveyer belt of ships. 

> But I think in general, it would be cheaper to build a hydrogen mine than
> to ship the fuel in from other points in the system.

If the planet is at least as warm as Earth, and has no hydrosphere, you
can be fairly certain that the planet hasn't retained enough hydrogen
to be "minable". 

There's a *reason* most of the hydrogen winds up in the gas giants. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:15:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Women, Mental Health and Life in other systems

In mail you write:

>> Would a woman still cycle being jumped from one area  to another?
>
> Yes, I think.  Hormonal effects would probably outweigh environmental ones.
>  It's also worth remembering that different women have cycles of different
> lengths.  It's really only artificial influences like the contraceptive
> pill that "standardise" them at any level beyond groups small enough to
> cause synchronisation.
>
> On going effects like changes to day-night cycles (and gravity?) will
> affect the circadian "clock".  I've got no idea what this will do to larger
> cycles.

They've found that *some* cycles are affected by exposure to light of a
given intensity. There have been tests of using *bright* lights to
reset the circadian rythms. 

So that will handle the "jet lag" problem of synchronizing ship's time
with port time. 

BTW, I do *not* see ship's adjusting their "day" to match the
destination. That's because except on really small colonies, there will
be multiple time zones. Synchronizing with the zone of the port won't
help folks travelling to some other part of the planet (or to a
different planet in the system!).

What the ship will likely do is shift time while it's docked or landed.
Then revert back to "Universal Time" while underway.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:30:04 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: two Parsec jumps

Sethkimmel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thus, the AHL is the only CT and MT semi-streamlined ship that has this
problem. She is quite a "canon-breaker". She is also (along with the Gazelle)
the only ship with external small craft, in a rule system with no external
craft design rules! (though HG IMPLIES that dispersed structure ships are
built that way-they can launch EVERYBODY simultaneously, but still require
volume dedicated to these craft-what a gip!!). Unfortunately; I am "New Era
challenged", so I have no idea if FF+S. FF+S2, etc., fixed this. Gary; what's
the story with this?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take a look at the CT Subsidized Liner and Subsidized Merchant. For
smaller starships, it wasn't necessary to specify whether a carried
craft was internal or external - and "volume" seemed to apply to what
you carried into jumpspace (or what you built your M-drives to move
around and power plant to support). Drop tanks are, in a sense, an
externally carried craft, and the CT rules simply had them add volume
directly. Though the cost issue arises - if 95 tons of your 400tn ship
is an externally carried shuttlecraft, why are you paying Kcr1/ton
to build those 95 tons of hull? Must be the external sling mounts.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:02:46 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: World Generation Program

I'm publishing my 'first' VB app - a traveller world generation program. 
 World Generation is done according to the T4 rules, the Extended UWP 
according to the blurb on it found in Pocket Empires (but not the PE 
economic extensions...at least not yet).  I dropped back to CT for the 
System Generation rules - I may eventually re-write it for MT, but not at 
the moment.

I also include the 10 and 100 diameter travel times, note the Habitable 
Orbit for the given Stellar Type and Size (and pass alerts if the Habitable 
Zone is within the 100 Stellar Diameter zone...)

The executable is only 100 K, the setup program is over 4 M.  The problem I 
currently have is that...ummm...well I only run VB apps on systems that I 
have installed VB on.  I don't *know* which files I can do without!  If 
anyone can tell me what can be carved out, drop me mail!

Otherwise, the 4MB beastie can be found on my website 
(http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller).  I encourage, invite and 
solicit feedback...

douglas

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:37:15 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: two Parsec jumps

In a message dated 12/5/98 8:30:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
smithw@hartwick.edu writes:

<< Take a look at the CT Subsidized Liner and Subsidized Merchant. >>

DUH!!! my brain hurts. I forgot about them. I agree with your intrepretation
of the rules. It seems to make sense...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:56:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie's stereo

- ---Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:

> I'm leaning towards "Vox Deus" (voice of god) as the name for this
> item. "Divine Thunder" is another contender.

Morgan of Hed used something called the "Great Shout" (IIRC) to split
a set of multi-story high stone doors in the "Riddle of Stars" series.
 (Reminds one of I Thes. 4:16, "For the Lord himself shall descend
from heaven with a shout,..." That verse also calls it the "Trump of
God")



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4+ ?tg ru++ 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 02:13:15 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Libel or Slander?

SD Mooney wrote:

> Hans wrote:
>
> >However, fleet advisories ("Look out for SOLAR QUEEN, it's suspect.") and
>
> That's a malicious slander - or is it libel? - on the crew of the
> SolarQueen. Do you work for Intersolar(*)?
>

Published = Libel.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 22:12:11
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie

>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Two requests - one from me, one from Ditzie
>
>Come and see the violence inherent in the system!  Help, help, I'm
>being repressed! (You saw him repressing me, didn't you.)
>

Look, SwordWorlder, there are two things you *really* need to know.

#1, Ditzie is a girl.

#2, she works in Famile Spofulam's High Energy Solutions division, and is
currently working on a Plasma Chain Gun, to go in the chin turret of the
new TL12 Combat Helicopter. The helicopter's main gun is a 100 MJ plasma
gun, that should be capable of penetrating 40 cm of superdense.

Now, calling her a boy may or may not offend her.

Personally, I would not risk offending anyone insane enough to even
*consider* putting a high megajoulage plasma gun *on a helicopter*.

Ian Whitchurch

PS If you are mounting a number of plasma guns in a gatling-gun type array,
should you only need one autoloader for the EPGs ? A small, insistent, and
heavily armed mind wants to know.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 07:37:46 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump 

> << I don't follow this.  Any partially streamlined ship can skim.  Warships
> are 
>  designed to be sturdier than civilian ships.  So where's the danger?  I just 
>  don't see it.  Warships are designed to survive *combat*.  A quick skim run? 
>  No problem. >>
> 
> Check out Supplement 5; AHL. Though they're partially streamlined; they use
> fuel shuttles for mormal refueling. The book stated that skimming was
> dangerous for AHL's and they only did them in emergencies. There is a section
> in the book that allows for die rolling to prevent fuel tank damage; losing
> shuttles (moored externally I guess; though HG design rules require hangers
> that need displacement tonnage-ie volume); maneuver drive damage; or even that
> all time favorite-loss of control and a one way trip to the bottom of the
> gravity well....PC's can use their appropriate skills as DM's. 

1.  I don't have a copy of AHL.

2.  We can assume that the AHL would launch all the small craft *BEFORE* 
skimming.  One could assume that even a AHL captain isn't *stupid*.

3.  HG rules for hangers states that the hangers are internal.  Only Dispersed 
Structures just bolt the hardware on the frame.

4.  If its tankage is *that* delicate, how can it be expected to stand up and 
fight a battle??

> Thus, the AHL is the only CT and MT semi-streamlined ship that has this
> problem. She is quite a "canon-breaker". She is also (along with the Gazelle)
> the only ship with external small craft, in a rule system with no external
> craft design rules! (though HG IMPLIES that dispersed structure ships are
> built that way-they can launch EVERYBODY simultaneously, but still require
> volume dedicated to these craft-what a gip!!). Unfortunately; I am "New Era
> challenged", so I have no idea if FF+S. FF+S2, etc., fixed this. Gary; what's
> the story with this?

The 'volume' dedicated to external small craft under HG is so that you can 
determine its final volume and thus its overall performance.  Otherwise, it 
would be totally 'legal' to design a 100 ton J6 boat and hang 1000 tons of 
stuff on its hull for a quick cheap J6 boat.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:24:24 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Pirates :)

At 04:08 PM 04/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>In the new National Geographic, there is an article on the South China Sea
>that mentions the upsurge in piracy in the area.  Good reading for those
>who still use the little bastards in their campaigns.
>
>Note:  This is not an attempt to resurrect the Piracy debate!  Just a
>pointer to a good information source.

        When we (HMCS Restigouche) came home from the Gulf, we went through
that area.  The buggers were using cigarette boats with 20mm cannon on them
to slow an intended target and biz copters to rappel commando squads onto
the deck.  The commando squads could be expected to be equiped with Uzi's or
H&K's and *cutlasses*.   Apparently the month before we went through, some
Greek captain had tried to resist and they'd taken a piece out of him with one.
        We closed up 2nd degree of readiness for the transit through the
area, and put flood-lights to illuminate the 3."75's and the Harpoon boxes,
and the Maple Leaf on the stack ("No, this is NOT a merchant.  Go Away.").
I remember the Combat Officer briefing the CO that if we were attacked, he'd
bring the "A" system (3"75's) online...  he didn't expect to hit them -
that's be the waist 30mm & .50cal's - but he figured one two-barrel
five-shot volley at night (MUZZLE FLASH) would convinced them to annoy
someone else. =) 
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 07:09:13 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Courier Networks

Walter G. Smith wrote:
> 
> "High population and high tech star systems can be expected to
> have up to twelve xboats present at one time, probably evenly
> distributed between arriving and departing ships."
> 
> Not near as many as I had thought.
> 
> Can you run a daily service to two or three legs of a route with
> twelve ships present (six arriving, six departing)?
> 
> Let's see, one ship arriving, one ship leaving, six ships currently
> in jump space each way - you'd see only three or four ships per
> leg (including spares), there would be a lot more in service.
> 

IMTU, the twelve xboats are, as it states, present at one time. So
Glisten/Glisten, a high-tech high-pop world, might have twelve xboats in
the system, with each one departing at some time during the day.

Each xboat jumps to a neighboring system, refuels, and jumps back. So
it's gone for two weeks. 14 days times 12 xboats per day means that
Glisten has 168 xboats assigned to it by the Scouts.

If you send an xmail message from Glisten, it leaves within hours of
receipt by the Scout Service.

Picture all these xboats leaving from Glisten in a given day. Picture
them arriving at the next world and transmitting their information to
the next xboat, which then jumps. Picture that next world only having
two or three xboats, so sometimes the incoming xboats must wait days for
an outgoing xboat to become available.

Each world in the xboat chain must have the same number of xboats, lest
there be bottlenecks in the flow of information.

It hasn't come up yet IMTU, but if it does, I'll rule that there are 2D
xboats in system (regardless of tech level or population), and that
number will change every few hours.


- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:10:53 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: External armament pods (was Re: Dumber than Mud (OT))

At 10:44 AM 05/12/98 +1300, you wrote:
>>Frankly, given that it's *impossible* to give a fighter enough
>armor to
>>matter, I think that the standard design for fighters *not*
>intended to
>>enter atmosphere would be a central support "spar" (sort of like
>the
>>triangular trusses to be used in the International Space Station).
>You
>>have the engines, cockpit, and weapons systems off of this.
>
>
>Sort of like an "Eagle" from Space:1999, huh ?
>

        I don't know if I'd build fighters that way, if only since a
streamlined fighter would be more useful, IMHO, but I can see in-system
workhorse craft built this way.  That was something I always liked about the
"Eagle" was that it *looked* like something a terran would build.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:36:12 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> But the avialable sources may take *years* to reach. Figure out how
> long it takes to get to Pluto (inner edge of the Kuiper Belt) *without*
> using jump. 

 Then why go there without jump? I have seen no canonical references
forbidding an insystem jump. Even if the microjump takes the standard
week you'd save some major time, and since fuel consumption _does_ depend
on distance, youd probably save a lot of fuel too.

> But it taks a *long* time to transport any significant amount. You
> either need a *lot* of ships in the "pipeline", or you need to be able
> to move the source closer to the port. Neither is cheap. Operating
> costs will eat you alive. 

 As already stated, a single large comet moved insystem will supply a busy
highport for years, and the money you can get from all those trillions of
tons of fuel (and other usable chemicals) far outweighs the cost of
strapping a few ion engines to a comet and lobbing it into a Hohmann
trnsfer orbit insystem.

 I can also see manned refueling stations built into a system's kuiper
belt to refuel passing ships that have no interest in the mainworld. (And
if you want insystem, you can always spend a week in microjump.) These
station could also do some actual trade themselves. The methane, ammonia,
nitrogen and (according to recent studies) aminoacids in the cometary
sludge are indeed valuable trade commodities. 

> If the planet is at least as warm as Earth, and has no hydrosphere, you
> can be fairly certain that the planet hasn't retained enough hydrogen
> to be "minable". 

 There's _not_ going to be a single mainworld with more than a hundred or
so inhabitants that has no water at all on it. The sheer cost and
logistical difficulty of providing oxygen for thousands let alone millions
of inhabitans from offworld sources makes such an undertaking ridiculous
even as an idea.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:30:42 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie

To: Ms Ditzammer Spofulam
From: An Admirer

Uh, Hi Dttzie,

I picked up  your transmittion, quite by acceident I assure you, while
listening in to Imp Nav CINC. I some times sweep the civilian bands, since
it gets awfully lonely out here in the oort cloud. In my opinion, by it's
very nature a gatling arrangement should only need on auto-loader. The
original gatling was fed from a single hopper, as the barrels passed. I can
forward some scketches if you would like.

PS Are you married?

PPS Have you ever thought of moving to the Solomani Confederation?

An Admirer.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie



>PS If you are mounting a number of plasma guns in a gatling-gun type array,
>should you only need one autoloader for the EPGs ? A small, insistent, and
>heavily armed mind wants to know.
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:23:11 -0500
From: "Daniel Poulin" <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Con Scenario

Loren,

Sorry for not replying to your message earlier but I just returned from the
Ukraine on a business trip and I am looking at the hundred of emails left. 
Are you still interested in a scenario for future cons?

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

- ----------
> From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Con Scenario
> Date: 10 nov. 1998 16:39
> 
> Gentlebeings:
> 
> Several of you in the past have mentioned running GURPS Traveller scenarios
> at conventions. I have a desparate need for one in the next week or 10
> days. Anybody got a good, simple set-up ready to go?
> 
> Please send replies to lkw@io.com    or     gdwgames@aol.com
> 
> No need to clutter the list.
> 
> 
> 
> Loren Wiseman
>      Traveller Line Editor
>      Traveller Guru-in-Residence
>      SJ Games
>      LKW@IO.COM
>      (512) 447-7866 VOX
>      (512) 447-1144 FAX
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:24:22 -0500
From: "Daniel Poulin" <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Con Scenario

Sorry people, I must still have jetlag, I noticed that the message was sent
through the mailing list.  Sorry for replying to everyone.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

- ----------
> From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Con Scenario
> Date: 10 nov. 1998 16:39
> 
> Gentlebeings:
> 
> Several of you in the past have mentioned running GURPS Traveller
scenarios
> at conventions. I have a desparate need for one in the next week or 10
> days. Anybody got a good, simple set-up ready to go?
> 
> Please send replies to lkw@io.com    or     gdwgames@aol.com
> 
> No need to clutter the list.
> 
> 
> 
> Loren Wiseman
>      Traveller Line Editor
>      Traveller Guru-in-Residence
>      SJ Games
>      LKW@IO.COM
>      (512) 447-7866 VOX
>      (512) 447-1144 FAX
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:58:00 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS website addition

The BITS website http://www.bits.org.uk/ now hosts Andrew Moffatt-Valance's
Pocket Empires Excel spreadsheet in the archive section as a ZIP file.
(Requires Excel 5 or better)

The website is now on the main Traveller webring (although not, as yet,
shown on the index - something to do with the fact it's site 108 and the
index only has the first 100 at present).

Dom (BITS websmaster)


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1248
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, December 6 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1249



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Two parsec jump
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1246
Re: Two parsec jump 
Re: Two parsec jump
Re: Two parsec jump 
Intrasystem transportation
Misc- LETA Website, Check it out.
Re: Intrasystem transportation
Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Third try...
Re: Some questions...
Re: [TTL] Problems with Bussard as presented
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
revisiting "It's Harder Than I Thought"
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Two parsec jump
Weapon (GT)
Re: Courier networks
Re: revisiting "It's Harder Than I Thought"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 12:40:23 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump

In a message dated 12/6/98 4:43:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< We can assume that the AHL would launch all the small craft *BEFORE* 
 skimming.  One could assume that even a AHL captain isn't *stupid*.
  >>

The only problem is that the fuel shuttles would be killed by the pursuing
combat ships ( what AHL euphemistically calls a tactical refueling is for
emergencies like this only). 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:13:52 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1246

Ian wrote:

>>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>>Subject: Re: Dumber than Mud (fleet procurements choices)
>>
>>Nope - bigger 2kdT
>>16 USP Factor 3 Missile batteries 1500 battery rounds
>>16 USP Factor 4 Beam Laser batteries
>>M3 J3
>>Interstellar Passive EMS
>>Far Orbit Active EMS
>>EMMask
>>Def DM+11
>>Agility 1
>>Computer 9fib
>>46 ships troops
>>
>>It's a well designed long endurance Kinuir in MTJ3
>
>It looks like a MT design, and the reduced fuel requirements help most
>designs.

It is an MT design with staged power plants - it uses a lot of the
optimisation tricks described in Imperiallines 1 IIRC.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:00:14 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump 

> In a message dated 12/6/98 4:43:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> jamstar@glasscity.net writes:
> 
> << We can assume that the AHL would launch all the small craft *BEFORE* 
>  skimming.  One could assume that even a AHL captain isn't *stupid*.
>   >>
> 
> The only problem is that the fuel shuttles would be killed by the pursuing
> combat ships ( what AHL euphemistically calls a tactical refueling is for
> emergencies like this only). 

*WHAT* pursuing combat ships?  You refuel after you *WIN*.  If you gotta 
refuel during combat, you're *already* dead.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:21:07 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump

In a message dated 12/6/98 10:06:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< *WHAT* pursuing combat ships?  You refuel after you *WIN*.  If you gotta 
 refuel during combat, you're *already* dead.
  >>

I agree totally.... I am just going by what supplement 5 says... Some of the
AHL boardgame scenarios hint at this. In one; the idiot captain jumps into
Querion with half empty tanks so he/she can commerce raid (violating his/her
own ops plan which stated that the ship would use her J5 to do J2 raids. Jump
in, shoot, and jump out...). Unfortunately a Zhodani Batron is there first...
The AHL has to do an emergency skim so she can get enough fuel to do an
emergency jump outsystem. She is jumped by SDB's in the gas giant and
killed... 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:43:40 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump 

> << *WHAT* pursuing combat ships?  You refuel after you *WIN*.  If you gotta 
>  refuel during combat, you're *already* dead.
>   >>
> 
> I agree totally.... I am just going by what supplement 5 says... Some of the
> AHL boardgame scenarios hint at this. In one; the idiot captain jumps into
> Querion with half empty tanks so he/she can commerce raid (violating his/her
> own ops plan which stated that the ship would use her J5 to do J2 raids. Jump
> in, shoot, and jump out...). Unfortunately a Zhodani Batron is there first...
> The AHL has to do an emergency skim so she can get enough fuel to do an
> emergency jump outsystem. She is jumped by SDB's in the gas giant and
> killed... 

*DUMB*.

If you got multijump fuel capability, you only go in part of the way.  This 
gives you a 'get the hell outta here' capability if you screwed the pooch.  
You jump in with the fallback position already locked into the computer, fed 
with continual updates on the solution at say, 1 cbt turn intervals.  For 
instance:

Your fleet is J4.  Your fallback position is 1 parsec from the target.  Move 
to within 3 parsecs, refuel, and take your target.  If you gotta break off, 
you deedee straight to the fallback position, which your supporting squadron 
has just spent over a week securing in force.  The bad guys come after you, 
you 'bush 'em with your reinforced task force.  *Your* reinforcements come 
forward, refuel, and everybody goes back and hits your original target again.  
Unless he's been reinforced bigtime, you should be able to knock him over.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 14:53:22 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Intrasystem transportation

Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>One of my feelings about full system generation is that almost
>all systems will have multiple refuelling points - the odds of
>having more than one ice asteroid, icecap, liquid water source
>or gas giant seem to be very high, when all bodies in a system
> are generated.
> I believe that almost no system will have no refueling sources.

So outer moons instead of cometary nuclei? That makes it a little
bit easier than I was thinking. It's quite possible that I'm
underestimating the difficulties of comet-catching: refueling at
some larger icy body closer in to the mainworld does make more
sense.

>First of all, hydrogen is a very common chemical. I believe that
>'mining' hydrogen should be more than possible just about
>anywhere.

Not necessarily. I mentioned in my world-building posts a while
ago that small and hot worlds tend to lose their hydrogen
containing compounds quite rapidly. In the outer system anywhere
maximum temperatures stay below freezing, ices of some variety
should be fairly common.  Mainworlds with a UWP indicating 10%
water or less might easily find on-planet water expensive enough
and slow transport from the outsystem cheap enough to make ice an
important commodity in interplanetary trade. I can't quite see it
in interstellar trade unless you have something like a water
world just one parsec from a desert world.

>In my opinion, fuel shuttles on interplanetary runs make good
>targets for pirates, which means the shuttles need to be
>escorted by combat-capable vessels.

And what is a pirate going to do with 200 dtons of ice or
whatever?  I'd leave incoming bulk commodities alone and target
the outbound runs taking equipment and luxury goods to the
various outposts.

>But I think in general, it would be cheaper to build a hydrogen
>mine than to ship the fuel in from other points in the system.

Is your "mine" within a day's flight of your starport? If not, I
suspect you're better off shipping fuel than making merchants go
get it themselves. For merchants with a schedule to meet, time is
money.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 12:10:52 -0800
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@email.msn.com>
Subject: Misc- LETA Website, Check it out.

Hello All,

	This post is in regards to the LETA website, which is now up and running.
We are currently conducting a contest where you can win $30 worth of credit
towards the purchase of your favorite RPG- more details below. For those of
you who are on multiple lists and receiving this post several times- I
apologize for any inconvenience that it may be causing you.
	We currently have an auction running which has several RPG's, and there is
a little of everything on the site. More items are added on a regular basis,
so take a look- you may be able to pick up that piece or two that's missing
from your private collection.
	"About Us" will tell you all about the business end of our site, and you
can place an order for us to do a search for any RPG item that you desire.
There are no costs involved in the search until you actually decide to
order- then our fees are added directly into the price that we quote you for
the product.
	Check out our search list, and join our world-wide network of scouts who
help others find the products that they're looking for. Our search list
shows the items that we are currently trying to find for our customers. We
buy, sell, and trade items.
	Targeted for the 1st of January, we will be having a monthly newsletter
with articles submitted by members of our online community, interviews with
various writers, designers, and editors of RPG's, and all of the latest news
that we can get you about the gaming community.
	Take a look at the links section where we will be adding 6 k. worth of
links in the very near future- there are already many posted. These are all
free sites there for your perusal. We post both RPG, and topic-related
sites.
	Finally, our Resources page will be adding several features for your
viewing pleasure. These will include dicebots for various chat programs, and
play. Programs to aid you in Mastering/Playing FRP's, the convention
calendar with dates, and information regarding the various RPG events around
the world. Lots of fun stuff will be in this section.
	Now, for the contest. Anyone who joins our community (always free) by Dec.
31st, 1998- will be entered into a random drawing for $30 worth of credit on
RPG materials ordered through us. Your membership will allow you to
subscribe to our free monthly newsletter so that it is sent directly to your
e-mail box, and allows you to be informed of site updates as they occur. We
will be adding a gamer's directory so that you can find players in your area
as well. Registration into the gamers' directory will be added to the
memberships as soon as that is online.
	Take a look and let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Jesse.
vanquer@email.msn.com
http://www.gryffon.com/leta
for all your role-playing needs
ICQ. 8004143

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 15:23:11 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Intrasystem transportation

At 02:53 PM 12/6/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>
>>One of my feelings about full system generation is that almost
>>all systems will have multiple refuelling points - the odds of
>>having more than one ice asteroid, icecap, liquid water source
>>or gas giant seem to be very high, when all bodies in a system
>> are generated.
>> I believe that almost no system will have no refueling sources.
>
>So outer moons instead of cometary nuclei? That makes it a little
>bit easier than I was thinking. It's quite possible that I'm
>underestimating the difficulties of comet-catching: refueling at
>some larger icy body closer in to the mainworld does make more
>sense.

Outsystem operation is a mainstay of the less than reputable and the
military/police keeping them suppressed. It's probably as easy in the
outworld areas to catch (land on) a comet as it is to catch an asteroid.
Comets in the outsystem aren't as affected by solar winds as they are
closer to a star, so there isn't any flyoff choking your navigation.

>>First of all, hydrogen is a very common chemical. I believe that
>>'mining' hydrogen should be more than possible just about
>>anywhere.
>
>Not necessarily. I mentioned in my world-building posts a while
>ago that small and hot worlds tend to lose their hydrogen
>containing compounds quite rapidly. In the outer system anywhere
>maximum temperatures stay below freezing, ices of some variety
>should be fairly common.  Mainworlds with a UWP indicating 10%
>water or less might easily find on-planet water expensive enough
>and slow transport from the outsystem cheap enough to make ice an
>important commodity in interplanetary trade. I can't quite see it
>in interstellar trade unless you have something like a water
>world just one parsec from a desert world.
>
>>In my opinion, fuel shuttles on interplanetary runs make good
>>targets for pirates, which means the shuttles need to be
>>escorted by combat-capable vessels.
>
>And what is a pirate going to do with 200 dtons of ice or
>whatever?  I'd leave incoming bulk commodities alone and target
>the outbound runs taking equipment and luxury goods to the
>various outposts.

First thing I'd hit if I were interdicting a world is to cut off their fuel
supply.

Pirate may need to hit a fuel shuttle or two just for the fuel. Their
wouldn't be any profit in it, but it would prevent them from having to
refuel in trafficed (and patroled) areas.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:38:48 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

I have a question for the list:

Is it possible for a gas giant planet in the habitable zone of a star, to have
a moon with a breathable oxy-nitro atmosphere and liquid water?

I was under the assumption that a gas giant in the habitable zone would lose
it's gas atmosphere (hydrogen-ammonia boils off?) and no longer have the mass
to attract a big enough moon to have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere.

OK astronomers and phyicists; please enlighten this liberal arts weinee...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 15:52:58 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Third try...

I apologize if this has appeared before, I tried posting it twice yesterday
afternoon and never saw it come through on the list...

I am looking for the e-mail address of the person/s who posted the
deckplans for the Sydkai class cruiser on thier web page.  In all the
documentation I was unable to locate the URL or the address of the creator
and I have a few questions.

Feel free to contact me off list.

Thanks!

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 15:16:12 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Some questions...

At 11:38 am 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>With THAT aggressive breeding you would start with breeding
population of
>>about 30
>>male donors and 9970 baby factories.  After 20 years the initial
breeding
>>population would retire but would be replaced by the first of the
new
>>generation,
>
>
>I would *not* want to live ona planet with;
>9,970 Pregnant Women
>9,970 newborn infants and only 10,000 caretakers.
>
>On the other hand, the idea of having sex with 9,970 different women
in one
>year is...not terribly unappealing.

	27 times a day?!?!?!! I think the word there is "exhausting."
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:32:46 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: [TTL] Problems with Bussard as presented

David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:
> Actually, the sum total of calculation done for FF&S2 fusion drives
>was to heed the comments of those who felt the original FF&S1 fuel
>consumption was 10x too low, and fix that ... Time for detailed
>analysis and ground-up development wasn't there, and we were told to
>just take FF&S1 and update it anyway.
>
> Hope I haven't destroyed your confidence or anything ...

This isn't a terrible assumption. Fusion rockets have an enormously uncertain
fudge factor in their performance: the efficiency, expressed as the percentage
of hydrogen in the fuel that gets fused as opposed to the percentage that
is injected unfused. The fusion rockets in FFS2 assume a (not alltogether
ludicrous) 10% or so, I believe. (Not that anyone calculated things that way;
the number in FFS2 just comes from the FFS1 number, with (as Dave says) ten
times higher fuel consumption to make them less useful than the higher-tech
HEPlaR. 

As I think about it, I can't think of any good reason why the efficiencies
for a Bussard ramjet would be the same as for a straight-up fusion rocket - 
among a million other things, the fusion rocket probably gets to burn
D/T enriched fuel.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:46:17 -0800
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> I have a question for the list:
>
> Is it possible for a gas giant planet in the habitable zone of a star, to have
> a moon with a breathable oxy-nitro atmosphere and liquid water?
>
> I was under the assumption that a gas giant in the habitable zone would lose
> it's gas atmosphere (hydrogen-ammonia boils off?) and no longer have the mass
> to attract a big enough moon to have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere.
>
> OK astronomers and phyicists; please enlighten this liberal arts weinee...

I mentioned this in my "Nature of Hydrogen" post.  Gas Giants won't form until you
go out past the "Ice line"  The "Ice Line" is out beyond the habitable zone of a
star.  However, Gas Giants can put out some heat so the moons could be in the
habitable zone of the Gas Giant rather than the star itself.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 17:44:21 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: revisiting "It's Harder Than I Thought"

I was just looking over the draft of the T5 Tasks rules. A while back, 
Doug Berry wrote:

=== begin quote ===
 With the IHTIT rule, we now have a perfect use for Jack-of-all-Trades
 skill.  Using J-o-T to raise the effective skill to avoid the IHTIT.

 Skill required 3, Skill possessed 1, If the PC has JoT-2 he avoids the
 penalty.
=== end quote ===

To which Marc Miller replied:

=== begin quote ===

Much what I was thinking of... JOT is used to avoid the penalty.

Marc
=== end quote ===

That's all fine and dandy, but the definition of J-o-T in the latest
draft says "the character may not use Jack-of-all-Trades in place of a
skill which is already held."

Now, if I have NeededSkill-1 but I need NeededSkill-3 to attempt the
task, using J-o-T to negate the IHTIT rule means that I'm using J-o-T in
place of a skill I already have. Namely, I'm using J-o-T-2 as
NeededSkill-2, when I already have NeededSkill-1.

Is using J-o-T to negate the penalty not introducing an inconsistency in
the rules?

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:04:16 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

In a message dated 12/6/98 3:40:04 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

> Is it possible for a gas giant planet in the habitable zone of a star, to 
> have
>  a moon with a breathable oxy-nitro atmosphere and liquid water?

Possible, yes.  Likely?


>  I was under the assumption that a gas giant in the habitable zone would lose
>  it's gas atmosphere (hydrogen-ammonia boils off?) and no longer have the mass
>  to attract a big enough moon to have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere.

I can seense some misconceptions lurking behind your explanation, but I'm
too tired right now to try and clear them up.

The canonical model for planetary formation claimed that gas giant worlds
would only form at relatively large distances from their primary stars (outside
the "ice line" as Joe Pettit says.  Unfortunately for the canonical model, we've
detected a number of cases in the last couple of years where a planet of Jovian
mass exists *very close* to the primary -- far inside the "ice line."  I have yet to
read a convincing reconciliation of this with the canonical model.  In any case,
that would suggest that gas giant worlds can sometimes  take up stable orbits
in the life zone.

It's possible for a gas giant's moon to be large enough to hold an atmosphere.
We have a couple of examples in the Terran system, after all.  Presumably
a gas giant in the life zone could have a moon large enough to have an
oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere.  My gut feeling is that this would be an unlikely
situation, however.  The largest moon in the Terran system (Ganymede) has
only about 2.5% Earth's mass. . .

So how common is the situation you're asking about?  Unknown.  Insufficient
data.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:04:44 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

This is an interesting topic and one i've been giving thought to, recently.  I
seem to remember maybe a year ago, a discussion on this.   Really is time to
get me an HIWG CD...  What Tech Level is required to seperate the hydrogen
from oxygen (chemically?) in water and would it be doable at a lower tech
level w/ teh knowledge from a highest tech level (16 in the Imperium c1116).
This also goes into a more general disccusion on tech levels and knowledge &
ability.  We're max TL8 (maybe 9) on Earth today in Traveller terms and lack
the knowledge to do TL-15 things, but IMO a TL-8 world in the Imperuim c1116
would not be in the same technical boat at all.  YMMV.

For the higher tech level worlds, is it more viable to have "fuel harvesters"
visiting the gas giants or to seperate it from water?  Would removing water
(either by removing the hydrogen from it or by ocean refueling) have an effect
on the hydrosphere after a period of time?  I imagine a TL-15 Pop A system
uses a whole lot of Lhyd each year...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:04:52 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump

> Check out Supplement 5; AHL. Though they're partially streamlined; they use
> fuel shuttles for mormal refueling. The book stated that skimming was
> dangerous for AHL's and they only did them in emergencies. There is a
section
> in the book that allows for die rolling to prevent fuel tank damage; losing
> shuttles (moored externally I guess; though HG design rules require hangers
> that need displacement tonnage-ie volume); maneuver drive damage; or even
that
> all time favorite-loss of control and a one way trip to the bottom of the
> gravity well....PC's can use their appropriate skills as DM's.

Kevin replies:

> 1.  I don't have a copy of AHL.

You've seen MTUs wilderness refueling rules, haven't you?  Almost entirely
based off Supp 5 and TNE.  Try http://members.aol.com/travelrtne/main.htm

> 2.  We can assume that the AHL would launch all the small craft *BEFORE*
> skimming.  One could assume that even a AHL captain isn't *stupid*.

The only reason the AHL would be skimming is if it's fuel shuttles were
damaged/destroyed or maybe if it's too dangerous to use them... A skimming
under that kind of duress is difficult for me to imagine under CT, though more
than plausible w/ a HEPlaR assumption (as of course, i am under). ; )
Besides, there is only a risk of this due to "severe atmospheric buffeting"
incidents.

> 3.  HG rules for hangers states that the hangers are internal.  Only Dispersed
> Structures just bolt the hardware on the frame.

There is no reason why grapples should be unfeasable except maybe the
canonical "jump grid" networked wiring mentioned in the Jumpspace article by
Marc Miller (from JTAS?) and currently on Kagehira's AAB, (especially as
opposed to the uncanonical DGP jump grid).  Even these need room for the
windows, turrets, antennae, the maneuver drive, etc so why not an external
craft?

> 4.  If its tankage is *that* delicate, how can it be expected to stand up and
> fight a battle??

Delicate compared to the stress caused by the same "severe atmospheric
buffeting" incidents caused by the flight through the turbulent atmosphere of
a gas giant.  Aren't the fuel tanks intended to serve as a "cushion" in HG/CT?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 20:54:37 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Weapon (GT)

A little something I cooked up for GURPS Traveller in a slow moment
today...it's an autofire version of the PGMP-10. Rate of fire of four shots
per second, otherwise pretty much the same as the one in the book.

WEAPON        TYPE    DMG    SS    ACC    1/2D    MAX    ROF    SHOTS    RCL ST
PGMP-10 Auto  Exp     6d x 8 12    14     460     920    4      465/E    -3  14

COST            TL    Weight
Cr54,000/2,000  10    14 lbs/20 lbs (total 34 lbs)

Includes a laser sight and holographic HUD.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:04:49 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Courier networks

> >I agree there is a niche for point-to-point high jump courier routes,
> >but I see them as complementing the X-Boat system.
> 
> So do I. But canon says the X-boats are the fastest available means.
> That's what I've argued against. Not the existense of the X-boats, but
> that they are all there is.

Canon says that the X-boats are the "fastest available means?"  I don't see
anything that says that.  Just that it's "designed to make optimum use of jump
technology" (which isn't necessarily false).  Whether a J6 X-boat network is
economical (and thus "optimum") or not... It would depend on an economic
analysis I don't think is possible due to insufficient (and unwanted, for
some) information.   But we don't want to debate *that* again, do we? ; )

In the ref's section for the MT Imperial Encyclopedia, it would seem your
theory on the bureaucracy using the naval courier "network" might be correct,
Hans.  I don't if it's been pointed out or not, as I haven't followed this
thread closely but: "Knowing vital facts before they become general knowledge
is essential to a well-run bureaucracy."  pg 49.  Course maybe i'm being too
literal? ; )   It also depends on the definition of "bureaucracy" and even the
casing of such, no?

IMTU, the Emperor had good reason to be wary of an increasingly corrupt
bureaucracy.  Above this, J5 & J6 was restricted and required heavy permits
(and not allowed for even a sector wide service, which could/would blatantly
reveal the control system that was the Express-boat network), moreso than
lower jump drives.  The Emperor's share (and control) in the megacorps ensured
they didn't violate this,either.   They want a private system like the
Imperiallines operation, that won't spill the beans and would remain under
wraps, fine, as long as they keep it quiet (and 'secret' ala Imperiallines)
and, of course, the possible presence of an INI
"representative"/watchdog/monitor.  : )  Any that violate the Emperor's wishes
might find themselves going the way of the Zhunastu Corp.  ; )

Is there anything in canon to violate any of that?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 20:11:34 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: revisiting "It's Harder Than I Thought"

Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> I was just looking over the draft of the T5 Tasks rules. A while back,
> Doug Berry wrote:
> 
> === begin quote ===
>  With the IHTIT rule, we now have a perfect use for Jack-of-all-Trades
>  skill.  Using J-o-T to raise the effective skill to avoid the IHTIT.
> 
>  Skill required 3, Skill possessed 1, If the PC has JoT-2 he avoids the
>  penalty.
> === end quote ===
> 
> To which Marc Miller replied:
> 
> === begin quote ===
> 
> Much what I was thinking of... JOT is used to avoid the penalty.
> 
> Marc
> === end quote ===
> 
> That's all fine and dandy, but the definition of J-o-T in the latest
> draft says "the character may not use Jack-of-all-Trades in place of a
> skill which is already held."
> 
> Now, if I have NeededSkill-1 but I need NeededSkill-3 to attempt the
> task, using J-o-T to negate the IHTIT rule means that I'm using J-o-T in
> place of a skill I already have. Namely, I'm using J-o-T-2 as
> NeededSkill-2, when I already have NeededSkill-1.
> 
> Is using J-o-T to negate the penalty not introducing an inconsistency in
> the rules?
> 

Not quite.  You still roll against NeededSkill-1, just not at an
inflated level of difficulty.
> --
> Erwin Fritz
> UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
> Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
> http://www.glja.com

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1249
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, December 7 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1250



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Two parsec jump...
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Re: Two parsec jump 
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Two parsec jump... 
Trav Auction my error
Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation
Re: Transporting Fuel Insystem
Sylean Battleship refueling
Insystem Fuel Transportation
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1248
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling 
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1248
Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:14:11 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Two parsec jump...

Keven Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The only problem is that the fuel shuttles would be killed by the pursuing
> combat ships ( what AHL euphemistically calls a tactical refueling is for
> emergencies like this only). 

*WHAT* pursuing combat ships?  You refuel after you *WIN*.  If you gotta 
refuel during combat, you're *already* dead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maybe you hope no one is crazy enough to dive as deep into the gas
giant as you just did? If they lose track of you, the mess and noise
in a gas giant's neighborhood may well keep them from finding you
again until you are close enough to ten diameters to make a running
exit fight out of it.

The AHL board game had a scenario aboard the wreck of an AHL
(_Bard Refuge_?) that tried this stunt and had the bad luck of running
into a flight of SDB's, which got in a lucky drive-disabling shot.
Whether spacesuited characters could survive on the decks of a ship
floating tail-down in a methane sea on a gas giant is another question.

AHL's usually did one to three parsec jumps, keeping a fuel reserve
for when they jumped into the teeth of something nasty. If you jumped
away from one enemy fleet and into another, you did what you could.
These babies were deep penetration raiders, they didn't belong in the
same system as enemy line-of-battle units.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:05:16 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

At 07:46 PM 12/6/98 -0800, you wrote:

>I mentioned this in my "Nature of Hydrogen" post.  Gas Giants won't form
>until you go out past the "Ice line"  The "Ice Line" is out beyond the 
>habitable zone of a star.  However, Gas Giants can put out some heat so the 
>moons could be in the habitable zone of the Gas Giant rather than the star 
>itself.

Isn't the Ice line under some fire after the recent discovery of what
appears to be super-Jovians in close orbits around some of our neighboring
stars?
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:26:29 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In a message dated 12/6/98 9:07:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:
> This is an interesting topic and one i've been giving thought to, recently. I
>  seem to remember maybe a year ago, a discussion on this.   Really is time to
>  get me an HIWG CD...  What Tech Level is required to seperate the hydrogen
>  from oxygen (chemically?) in water and would it be doable at a lower tech
>  level w/ teh knowledge from a highest tech level (16 in the Imperium c1116).

TL 4 or 5 could do it without any help from a higher-tech civilization at all.
Check in your encyclopedia under "electrolysis."


>  For the higher tech level worlds, is it more viable to have "fuel harvesters"
> 
>  visiting the gas giants or to seperate it from water?  Would removing water
>  (either by removing the hydrogen from it or by ocean refueling) have an effect
>  on the hydrosphere after a period of time?  I imagine a TL-15 Pop A system
>  uses a whole lot of Lhyd each year...

Let's do some back-of-the-envelope calculations.

The ocean surface of Earth covers about 139 million square miles.  Assume
an average depth of about one mile and we get about 2 x 10^19 cubic feet of
seawater . . .that works out to about 5.6 x 10^20 liters.  An old earth-
sciences text I have handy gives about 110 grams of hydrogen per liter,
so we get 6.16 x 10^22 grams or about 6 x 10^16 metric tons of hydrogen.

My guess is, you could refuel a squadron of dreadnaughts every day for a
thousand years and not make a noticeable dent.

You know, I'd never considered this before.  Getting your LHyd from seawater
strikes me as, well, *safer* than ramming yourself through a Jovian planet's
atmosphere. . .

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:30:53 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

>I was under the assumption that a gas giant in the habitable zone would lose
>it's gas atmosphere (hydrogen-ammonia boils off?) and no longer have the mass
>to attract a big enough moon to have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere.

There are actually models that show a gas giant could retain significant
atmosphere (like all of it) even around the orbit of mercury; gas giant
gravity is a mighty force. 

The reason for these models is that there are half a dozen systems with
observational evidence (indirect, but good) of jupiter-mass planets with
orbits of 0.05 to 2 AU.

What isn't well known is how to *form* a gas giant at those separations.
Most models form the gas giants out at the edge and then shuffle them in
(though near-collisions or tidal drag.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:32:37 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

>I mentioned this in my "Nature of Hydrogen" post.  Gas Giants won't form until
>out past the "Ice line"  The "Ice Line" is out beyond the habitable zone
>However, Gas Giants can put out some heat so the moons could be in the

>habitable zone of the Gas Giant rather than the star itself.



Or the gas giant could form past the "ice line" and get shuffled into the
habitable zone by close interactions with another gas giant, or by tidal
drag from the protoplanetary disk. Whether moons would survive such an
operation is another question, but they could be recaptured afterwards...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 22:15:16 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump 

> > Check out Supplement 5; AHL. Though they're partially streamlined; they use
> > fuel shuttles for mormal refueling. The book stated that skimming was
> > dangerous for AHL's and they only did them in emergencies. There is a
> section
> > in the book that allows for die rolling to prevent fuel tank damage; losing
> > shuttles (moored externally I guess; though HG design rules require hangers
> > that need displacement tonnage-ie volume); maneuver drive damage; or even that
> > all time favorite-loss of control and a one way trip to the bottom of the
> > gravity well....PC's can use their appropriate skills as DM's.
> 
> Kevin replies:

Kev*E*n, please.  My parents were *quite* specific about it.

> > 1.  I don't have a copy of AHL.
> 
> You've seen MTUs wilderness refueling rules, haven't you?  Almost entirely
> based off Supp 5 and TNE.  Try http://members.aol.com/travelrtne/main.htm

I don't have TNE either.  And besides, that's YTU, not anything official, 
right?
 
> > 2.  We can assume that the AHL would launch all the small craft *BEFORE*
> > skimming.  One could assume that even a AHL captain isn't *stupid*.
> 
> The only reason the AHL would be skimming is if it's fuel shuttles were
> damaged/destroyed or maybe if it's too dangerous to use them... A skimming
> under that kind of duress is difficult for me to imagine under CT, though more
> than plausible w/ a HEPlaR assumption (as of course, i am under). ; )
> Besides, there is only a risk of this due to "severe atmospheric buffeting"
> incidents.

Under CT/HG, hulls are assumed to be rigid enough to handle an atmospheric 
flight unless they're nonstreamlined.  Under CT/HG, even semistreamlined hulls 
can skim.  AHL's are considered semistreamlined.  So what's the problem?

> > 3.  HG rules for hangers states that the hangers are internal.  Only Dispersed
> > Structures just bolt the hardware on the frame.
> 
> There is no reason why grapples should be unfeasable except maybe the
> canonical "jump grid" networked wiring mentioned in the Jumpspace article by
> Marc Miller (from JTAS?) and currently on Kagehira's AAB, (especially as
> opposed to the uncanonical DGP jump grid).  Even these need room for the
> windows, turrets, antennae, the maneuver drive, etc so why not an external
> craft?

That's because the hangers are a shirtsleeve environment so you can do 
maintanance on the small craft during jump.  Dunno bout *you*, comrade, but 
*I* ain't getting out on the hull during a jump to work on something.
 
> > 4.  If its tankage is *that* delicate, how can it be expected to stand up and
> > fight a battle??
> 
> Delicate compared to the stress caused by the same "severe atmospheric
> buffeting" incidents caused by the flight through the turbulent atmosphere of
> a gas giant.  Aren't the fuel tanks intended to serve as a "cushion" in HG/CT?

No, they're not.  And I'd guess that a good hot combat would be inherently
*more* stressful than a skimming run.  There would be lots of jinking around,
and inertial compensating is *not* part of the fuel tankage.  I saw a reference
for that under CT, but I'll be damned if I can remember *where* I saw it.  This
means that the fuel is going to be sloshing around all over the place,
irregardless of any baffling.  If the tanks were so delicate that they
couldn't survive a skimming run, then they wouldn't survive a combat.

Besides, a hull has the *same* armour value all over, and main fuel tankage
is *internal* to the hull, thus under the armour.  All of which tells me that
if the ship can't survive a skimming, it has *no* business in combat in any
way shape or form.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:47:11 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

JFZeigler@aol.com writes:
> You know, I'd never considered this before.  Getting your LHyd from
seawater
> strikes me as, well, *safer* than ramming yourself through a Jovian
planet's
> atmosphere. . .
> 

Yeah.  It would be much safer.  Unfortunately that seawater is probably on
the main world of the system.  You know the one?  The one with the deep
site Meson Guns and the enemy Batron hanging about?

Mind you, ice might be more viable.  I suspect you would be more likely to
find it in out of the way locations.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 22:32:00 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump... 

> Keven Pittsinger wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > The only problem is that the fuel shuttles would be killed by the pursuing
> > combat ships ( what AHL euphemistically calls a tactical refueling is for
> > emergencies like this only). 
> 
> *WHAT* pursuing combat ships?  You refuel after you *WIN*.  If you gotta 
> refuel during combat, you're *already* dead.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Maybe you hope no one is crazy enough to dive as deep into the gas
> giant as you just did? If they lose track of you, the mess and noise
> in a gas giant's neighborhood may well keep them from finding you
> again until you are close enough to ten diameters to make a running
> exit fight out of it.

Look.  You jump into a system.  You might *not* have jump fuel to get back 
out, but you *do* have powerplant fuel, which means you have manuvering 
capability.  If you jump into a hot system, you still have plenty of time to 
fight and win before you have to refuel.  If you get within 10 diameters and 
pick up a couple enemy SDB's inside the gas giant, so what?  You're looking at 
SDBs on the order of what, maybe a kiloton each?  Against a 60 kiloton ship?  
Why are you worried about them?  A 60 kiloton starship can brush aside a 1 
kiloton SDB no problem.  If you find yourself down to 3 to 1 throw weight, 
abort the skim and use another gas giant.  This means the bad guys have to be 
able to field at least 20 kilotons of defenders.

> The AHL board game had a scenario aboard the wreck of an AHL
> (_Bard Refuge_?) that tried this stunt and had the bad luck of running
> into a flight of SDB's, which got in a lucky drive-disabling shot.
> Whether spacesuited characters could survive on the decks of a ship
> floating tail-down in a methane sea on a gas giant is another question.

I don't see that as a likely happening.  How much metal do you have to throw 
at an AHL in order to guarantee you take it out and still get back home?
 
> AHL's usually did one to three parsec jumps, keeping a fuel reserve
> for when they jumped into the teeth of something nasty. If you jumped
> away from one enemy fleet and into another, you did what you could.
> These babies were deep penetration raiders, they didn't belong in the
> same system as enemy line-of-battle units.

Still, the ships had enough armour for hull rigidity, as well as fuel scoops 
for skimming.  Just use the damned things.  Hell, even 200 kiloton Plankwells 
have scoops and can use 'em.  What makes an AHL such a hanger queen?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 22:41:33 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Trav Auction my error

Folks, I appologise for posting a further note on the auction found on my
site to the list, but I made an error in posting a high bid for Fifth
Frontier War on Thursday night! Since the high bid may have frightened some
people away from bidding on that game I'm posting this note. Please see my
site (address in sig. go to For Sale section) to see the correct bid.

Again sorry for wasting bandwith!

Mike Peters, Letterworks@CITnet.com
webpage:"Jump Point" http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's
sake. The great affair is to move."
Robert Louis Stevenson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:34:25 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation

Eppu Tuominen wrote:

[good comments snipped]

>There's _not_ going to be a single mainworld with more than a
>hundred or so inhabitants that has no water at all on it. The
>sheer cost and logistical difficulty of providing oxygen for
>thousands let alone millions of inhabitans from offworld sources
>makes such an undertaking ridiculous even as an idea.

For a Hydrographic percentage of zero, think Sahara desert. Not
widely inhabited, but not totally barren either. Water is mostly
underground; Civilization is concentrated in a few oases; water
is expensive (Cr0.5 per liter is ten times average terrestrial
prices but still not worth shipping in) and dominates political
issues. Oxygen for breathing you can get from silicate rocks
given cheap enough energy; the problem is water recovery.
The presence of even traces of water on the moon makes a big
difference in the feasibility of colonization there.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:34:22 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Transporting Fuel Insystem

Leonard Erickson replied:

>> Without risk premiums, it is fairly cheap to build a low-gee
>> transport, to take hydrogen from the refuelling source (gas
>> giant, ice asteroid etc) to the mainworld's starport.

>But it takes a *long* time to transport any significant amount.
>You either need a *lot* of ships in the "pipeline", or you need
>to be able to move the source closer to the port. Neither is
>cheap. Operating costs will eat you alive.

    I've had notions of putting a refinery out in orbit a safe
distance away from a GG. [Insurance carriers will love you for
it, though cash-strapped merchants might not]. Maybe have RP
drones do the skimming.  Even better, if there's an icy moon you
can put the refinery there and leave the GG itself safely alone.
    I'd also seriously consider running strings of RPVs from the
refinery to the starport (What is there for a crew to do except
at the ends of a run?). Terrestrial systems prefer pipelines for
this kind of work, but I don't think a pipeline with ends in
relative motion and several AU long is going to work. I'd expect
a good TL and a severe shortage of hydrogen on the mainworld to
be prerequisites for insystem shipping of it anyway.

>> Without risk premiums, it is fairly cheap to build a low-gee
>> transport to take hydrogen from the refuelling source (gas
>> giant, ice asteroid etc) to
>> the mainworld's starport.

>But it taks a *long* time to transport any significant amount.
>You either need a *lot* of ships in the "pipeline", or you need
>to be able to move the source closer to the port. Neither is
>cheap. Operating costs will eat you alive. 

There is also the comet-grabbing option. Take a couple of decades
to steer a suitable object into a suitable solar approach orbit.
(Mountain sized objects are hardly renowned for their
maneuverability). Wait several more for gravity to bring it in.
Relatively cheap if you're in no particular hurry.

Or this might be the Traveller version of towing icebergs to LA.
(Nice thought but not worth the trouble once you know where the $
signs need to go.)
  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:34:30 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Sylean Battleship refueling

Keven Pittsinger replied:

>I don't follow this.  Any partially streamlined ship can skim. 
>Warships are designed to be sturdier than civilian ships.  So
>where's the danger?  I just don't see it.  Warships are designed
>to survive *combat*.  A quick skim run?   No problem.

   Surviving meson, PAW, and laser fire is a completely different
matter from handling gravitational and atmospheric stress on the entire
hull. These beasts don't ever make landfall. Where and how are you going to
park something that size if you do get it down to the ground? Are you
*sure* something that heavily armored is going to float? (My Sylean
Federation architects didn't even consider that possibility, so the ships
aren't designed for it. They might consider it for the next class, though.
:-)
    SF capital ships don't have the 3g+ worth of maneuver drive to do slow
speed skimming. Recent design philosophy has emphasized armor and firepower
instead. A couple of well-remembered disasters in the past few centuries
plus the occasional accident where fuel shuttles got their high-speed
skimming vector wrong has convinced practically everyone in the navy that
emergency refueling was more to be feared than the enemy.
   In an emergency these _might_ skim if they had been designed for it. The
current class wasn't (except for the partially streamlined hull) because
Conventional Wisdom among SFN architects was that the big ships have an 80%
chance of surviving the trip but their captains have about a equal chances
of getting decorated or stripped of command by a review board if they try
it, even in wartime conditions.
   You do have a point about more maneuverable navies running
circles around these lumbering hulks while they're parked at the
gas station.  This is one reason the SFN is ineffective against
piracy, one of the reasons about a third of it always stays at
home, and one of the many reasons the SF hasn't expanded much
before now. As with many other things in the SF, everyone knows
it's a problem but they can't agree on a fix.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:34:34 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Insystem Fuel Transportation

Leonard Erikson wrote:

[lots of good ideas snipped]

>Finally, there's the rock dust. Other than running it past a
>magnet to seperate any nickel/iron it's not worth processing. 

Depending on the chemical composition of the star system. The
proportions of the metals (anything heavier than Oxygen) start
jumping all over the place once you get off our own planet's
magnesium-and-calcium aluminosilicate crust. There's a chance that there is
a better usable concentration of some useful metal in that dust than a
neigboring planet has left in more accessible ores.

> So it makes good reaction mass.

Or perhaps building material or thermal insulation.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 20:48:10 -0700
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1248

>In mail you write:
>
>>> Would a woman still cycle being jumped from one area  to another?
>>
>> Yes, I think.  Hormonal effects would probably outweigh environmental ones.
>>  It's also worth remembering that different women have cycles of different
>> lengths.  It's really only artificial influences like the contraceptive
>> pill that "standardise" them at any level beyond groups small enough to
>> cause synchronisation.


>>
>> On going effects like changes to day-night cycles (and gravity?) will
>> affect the circadian "clock".  I've got no idea what this will do to larger
>> cycles.
>
>They've found that *some* cycles are affected by exposure to light of a
>given intensity. There have been tests of using *bright* lights to
>reset the circadian rythms. 
>
>So that will handle the "jet lag" problem of synchronizing ship's time
>with port time. 

There are also studies that show a seasonal increase in depression as days grow shorter. I would have a ships doc should be well versed in techniques to minimize the stresses caused by drastically shifting day/night cycles, including lighting, dietary supplements, perhaps even some medical treatments. No one wants a crew member going postal. I can attest to the strain of shifting back and forth from day to night shifts on a repeated basis.
Referring to a question in the original post, IMTU contraceptives have advanced to the point that they prevent egg release, effectively 'freezing' the cycle around day 10(?). This way the full number of eggs is available when they go 'off the pill'. 
>
>BTW, I do *not* see ship's adjusting their "day" to match the
>destination. That's because except on really small colonies, there will
>be multiple time zones. Synchronizing with the zone of the port won't
>help folks travelling to some other part of the planet (or to a
>different planet in the system!).
>
>What the ship will likely do is shift time while it's docked or landed.
>Then revert back to "Universal Time" while underway.
For a non-passenger ship, yes. A passenger vessel may want to shift to the
downport time cycle on the way, since it is not only the time of day but the
length of the cycle that you have to adjust to.

ALO



- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 23:54:35 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling 

> Keven Pittsinger replied:
> 
> >I don't follow this.  Any partially streamlined ship can skim. 
> >Warships are designed to be sturdier than civilian ships.  So
> >where's the danger?  I just don't see it.  Warships are designed
> >to survive *combat*.  A quick skim run?   No problem.
> 
>    Surviving meson, PAW, and laser fire is a completely different
> matter from handling gravitational and atmospheric stress on the entire
> hull. These beasts don't ever make landfall. Where and how are you going to
> park something that size if you do get it down to the ground? Are you
> *sure* something that heavily armored is going to float? (My Sylean
> Federation architects didn't even consider that possibility, so the ships
> aren't designed for it. They might consider it for the next class, though.
> :-)

Ability to skim doesn't imply ability to land.  Nobody says it does.  And 
according to Supplement 9: Fighting Ships, the AHLs have Factor 5 nuke dampers 
& Factor 6 meson screens.  I wouldn't worry *TOO* much about taking fire from 
SDBs.

>     SF capital ships don't have the 3g+ worth of maneuver drive to do slow
> speed skimming. Recent design philosophy has emphasized armor and firepower
> instead. A couple of well-remembered disasters in the past few centuries
> plus the occasional accident where fuel shuttles got their high-speed
> skimming vector wrong has convinced practically everyone in the navy that
> emergency refueling was more to be feared than the enemy.

FWIW, any naval planner who sends out a raiding party that *can't* refuel all 
by itself ought to be shot for treason.

>    You do have a point about more maneuverable navies running
> circles around these lumbering hulks while they're parked at the
> gas station.  This is one reason the SFN is ineffective against
> piracy, one of the reasons about a third of it always stays at
> home, and one of the many reasons the SF hasn't expanded much
> before now. As with many other things in the SF, everyone knows
> it's a problem but they can't agree on a fix.

Just about everything in the old Supplement 9: Fighting Ships of the Imperium 
is capable of skimming.  This includes the venerable 500 kton Tigress class 
battleships.  Every capital ship mentioned has fuel scoops and integral 
purification plants.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 21:08:49 -0700
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1248

- -
>heavily armed mind wants to know.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 07:37:46 -0500
>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" 
>Subject: Re: Two parsec jump 
>
>> << I don't follow this.  Any partially streamlined ship can skim.  Warships
>> are 
>>  designed to be sturdier than civilian ships.  So where's the danger?  I just 
>>  don't see it.  Warships are designed to survive *combat*.  A quick skim run? 
>>  No problem. >>
>> 
>> Check out Supplement 5; AHL. Though they're partially streamlined; they use
>> fuel shuttles for mormal refueling. The book stated that skimming was
>> dangerous for AHL's and they only did them in emergencies. There is a section
>> in the book that allows for die rolling to prevent fuel tank damage; losing
>> shuttles (moored externally I guess; though HG design rules require hangers
>> that need displacement tonnage-ie volume); maneuver drive damage; or even that
>> all time favorite-loss of control and a one way trip to the bottom of the
>> gravity well....PC's can use their appropriate skills as DM's. 
>
>1.  I don't have a copy of AHL.
>
>2.  We can assume that the AHL would launch all the small craft *BEFORE* 
>skimming.  One could assume that even a AHL captain isn't *stupid*.
>
>3.  HG rules for hangers states that the hangers are internal.  Only Dispersed 
>Structures just bolt the hardware on the frame.
>
>4.  If its tankage is *that* delicate, how can it be expected to stand up and 
>fight a battle??
>
>> Thus, the AHL is the only CT and MT semi-streamlined ship that has this
>> problem. She is quite a "canon-breaker". She is also (along with the Gazelle)
>> the only ship with external small craft, in a rule system with no external
>> craft design rules! (though HG IMPLIES that dispersed structure ships are
>> built that way-they can launch EVERYBODY simultaneously, but still require
>> volume dedicated to these craft-what a gip!!). Unfortunately; I am "New Era
>> challenged", so I have no idea if FF+S. FF+S2, etc., fixed this. Gary; what's
>> the story with this?
>
>The 'volume' dedicated to external small craft under HG is so that you can 
>determine its final volume and thus its overall performance.  Otherwise, it 
>would be totally 'legal' to design a 100 ton J6 boat and hang 1000 tons of 
>stuff on its hull for a quick cheap J6 boat.
>
>Keven
>
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
>- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:24:24 -0400
>From: Michel Vaillancourt 
>Subject: Re: Pirates :)
>
>At 04:08 PM 04/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>In the new National Geographic, there is an article on the South China Sea
>>that mentions the upsurge in piracy in the area.  Good reading for those
>>who still use the little bastards in their campaigns.
>>
>>Note:  This is not an attempt to resurrect the Piracy debate!  Just a
>>pointer to a good information source.
>
>        When we (HMCS Restigouche) came home from the Gulf, we went through
>that area.  The buggers were using cigarette boats with 20mm cannon on them
>to slow an intended target and biz copters to rappel commando squads onto
>the deck.  The commando squads could be expected to be equiped with Uzi's or
>H&K's and *cutlasses*.   Apparently the month before we went through, some
>Greek captain had tried to resist and they'd taken a piece out of him with one.
>        We closed up 2nd degree of readiness for the transit through the
>area, and put flood-lights to illuminate the 3."75's and the Harpoon boxes,
>and the Maple Leaf on the stack ("No, this is NOT a merchant.  Go Away.").
>I remember the Combat Officer briefing the CO that if we were attacked, he'd
>bring the "A" system (3"75's) online...  he didn't expect to hit them -
>that's be the waist 30mm & .50cal's - but he figured one two-barrel
>five-shot volley at night (MUZZLE FLASH) would convinced them to annoy
>someone else. =) 
>	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>		Michel R. Vaillancourt
>		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>
>	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
>		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
>	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
>		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
>		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
>		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
>	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 07:09:13 -0700
>From: Erwin Fritz 
>Subject: Re: Courier Networks
>
>Walter G. Smith wrote:

>
>Picture all these xboats leaving from Glisten in a given day. Picture
>them arriving at the next world and transmitting their information to
>the next xboat, which then jumps. Picture that next world only having
>two or three xboats, so sometimes the incoming xboats must wait days for
>an outgoing xboat to become available.

Umm, I don't think that an x-boat ever has to wait to transfer it's data.
That's what the Tender is for. The X-boat transfers it's data to the big data
banks on the tender, which then sorts it and dumps it to the next boat going in
the right direction, or to the local planet's data system for distribution,
depending on the message's destination.
I think one use of 'faster than x-boat system' data is with opprtunistic trade.
Outbreak of Deng Fever on Planet R? Get ther first with the vaccine and charge
Premium Respose Rates for it if Lind-Kraal Pharmaceuticals knows about it
first..
Off-topic, but in your TU's is there a central disaster relief agency like the
Red Cross to help with major disasters?


ALO


- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:27:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie

- ---Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
>
> 
> >From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
> >Subject: Re: Two requests - one from me, one from Ditzie
> >
> >Come and see the violence inherent in the system!  Help, help, I'm
> >being repressed! (You saw him repressing me, didn't you.)
> >
> 
> Look, SwordWorlder, there are two things you *really* need to know.
> 
> #1, Ditzie is a girl.
> 

I was quoting Monty Python to Ian, not Ditzie.  I had assumed that Ian
was a male name.



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4+ ?tg ru++ 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1250
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, December 7 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1251



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Two parsec jump...
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1248
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Re: more Ditzie
Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
Re: Transporting Fuel
Re: GT Patrol Cruiser
Re: GT - Xboat Tender
Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Two parsec jump...
Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation
Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Two parsec jump
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 01:17:00 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In a message dated 12/6/98 6:29:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, JFZeigler@aol.com
writes:

<< You know, I'd never considered this before.  Getting your LHyd from
seawater
 strikes me as, well, *safer* than ramming yourself through a Jovian planet's
 atmosphere. . .
  >>

Much safer, but some people either won't pay for the full streamlining, or
don't want big capital ships caught on the surface filling up her tanks...(all
though fuel shuttles could help with this...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 01:21:00 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump...

In a message dated 12/6/98 7:38:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< What makes an AHL such a hanger queen? >>

the designer of the AHL boardgame...:-). Seriously; here is some more
incompatible canon (AHL vs HG semi-streamlined ships). How do we interpret it?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 01:22:43 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

In a message dated 12/6/98 8:38:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Sapience@compuserve.com writes:

<<  Are you *sure* something that heavily armored is going to float?  >>

Find a shallow lake or sea, and settle down on the bottom to refuel. I assume
multi G man. drives can break the mud suction....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 01:26:49 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1248

In a message dated 12/6/98 8:50:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, omary@my-
dejanews.com writes:

<< I can attest to the strain of shifting back and forth from day to night
shifts on a repeated basis. >>

So can I. Try a week of days, a week of swings, and then a week of midnights.
Then keep repeating. And cities wonder why their police unions are constantly
trying to end this. (usually with a plan that uses permanent shifts, and
seniority is weighted for bidding for favorite shifts...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 01:30:01 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

In a message dated 12/6/98 9:02:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< Just about everything in the old Supplement 9: Fighting Ships of the
Imperium 
 is capable of skimming.  This includes the venerable 500 kton Tigress class 
 battleships.  Every capital ship mentioned has fuel scoops and integral 
 purification plants.
  >>

quite true. My personal spin on this is that the AHL boardgame was designed
either before HG was (and thus didn't know that semi-streamlined is gas giant
approved), or this was ignored to give the ship some interesting flaws for
role playing purposes...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 22:39:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In mail you write:

> On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> But the avialable sources may take *years* to reach. Figure out how
>> long it takes to get to Pluto (inner edge of the Kuiper Belt) *without*
>> using jump.
>
>  Then why go there without jump? I have seen no canonical references
> forbidding an insystem jump. Even if the microjump takes the standard
> week you'd save some major time, and since fuel consumption _does_ depend
> on distance, you'd probably save a lot of fuel too.

Sorry, but J1 and a microjump take the same amount of fuel. So unless
you've got a ship that can hold fuel for *more* than 2 J1s, you *have*
to go out there in normal space.

That's the problem, jumping uses jump fuel. And since the *purpose* is
to *obtain* jump fuel...

>> But it taks a *long* time to transport any significant amount. You
>> either need a *lot* of ships in the "pipeline", or you need to be able
>> to move the source closer to the port. Neither is cheap. Operating
>> costs will eat you alive.=20
>
>  As already stated, a single large comet moved insystem will supply a busy
> highport for years, and the money you can get from all those trillions of
> tons of fuel (and other usable chemicals) far outweighs the cost of
> strapping a few ion engines to a comet and lobbing it into a Hohmann
> trnsfer orbit insystem.

It'll take a lot more than a "few ion engines" to get it into that
transfer orbit. And a Hohmann transfer orbit from (say) Pluto's orbit
to Earth orbit will take somewhere between 50 and 100 years....
(half of whatever the orbital period of a circular 20 AU radius orbit
is) 

>> If the planet is at least as warm as Earth, and has no hydrosphere, you
>> can be fairly certain that the planet hasn't retained enough hydrogen
>> to be "minable".
>
>  There's _not_ going to be a single mainworld with more than a hundred or
> so inhabitants that has no water at all on it. The sheer cost and
> logistical difficulty of providing oxygen for thousands let alone millions
> of inhabitans from offworld sources makes such an undertaking ridiculous
> even as an idea.

Remember, oxygen and water have to be recycled on any planet without a
breathable atmosphere. It's no different than a large space station,
except that you don't have to budget as much for "structure". 

So it's *quite* doable. They aren't going to be thrilled at providing
tons of LH2 for ships though.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:00:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

In mail you write:

> I have a question for the list:
>
> Is it possible for a gas giant planet in the habitable zone of a star, to 
> have a moon with a breathable oxy-nitro atmosphere and liquid water?
>
> I was under the assumption that a gas giant in the habitable zone would lose
> it's gas atmosphere (hydrogen-ammonia boils off?) and no longer have the mass
> to attract a big enough moon to have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere.
>
> OK astronomers and phyicists; please enlighten this liberal arts weinee...

At one time we would have said that a gas giant can't form that close
to the star. And thus that there couldn't be a gas giant that close.

Planet's discovered in the last few years show that we were only half right.
It still seems that gas giant's can't form that close to a star. But
apparently, processes during the early stages of system formation can
*move* them that close or closer. 

And once you *get* a gas giant of jupiter size or larger, moving it
closer to the star tends to *not* drive off significant amounts of
hydrogen, etc. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:14:37
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: more Ditzie

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Ditzie's stereo
>
>No way she'll get such a system into the chopper. The power required
>just won't fit. But since unshielded personnel could get *killed* by
>the thing, she might be able to build one around a chemical rocket
>engine (I don't think jet engines reach the power levels she needs). 
>

*thats* a challenge that has Ditzie putting the Plasma Helo of Death on
hold. How many kilonewtons of Heplar do we need to create the requisite
sound levels ?


>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
>Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
>
>To: Ms Ditzammer Spofulam
>From: An Admirer
>
>Uh, Hi Dttzie,
>
>I picked up  your transmittion, quite by acceident I assure you, while
>listening in to Imp Nav CINC. I some times sweep the civilian bands, since
>it gets awfully lonely out here in the oort cloud. In my opinion, by it's
>very nature a gatling arrangement should only need on auto-loader. The
>original gatling was fed from a single hopper, as the barrels passed. I can
>forward some scketches if you would like.
>
>PS Are you married?
>
>PPS Have you ever thought of moving to the Solomani Confederation?
>
>An Admirer.


Deeeer Mister Admirer,

I thank you vewwy vewwy much for your kind advice. My fwwwwend Michael says
that no I'm not mawwied and no I dont wanna move to the Solomani
Confwederation ... do you wanna wanna wanna come work for us ? I
reckon-weckon I could do with some helpie-welpie ...

Ditzie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:09:38
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie

>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
>
>I was quoting Monty Python to Ian, not Ditzie.  I had assumed that Ian
>was a male name.
>

You know I was talking to me. I now know you were talking to me, but does
Ditzie know you were talking to me *grin*

Ian Whitchurch (Personal Assistant to Ms Ditzammer Spofulam, Vice-President
of the High Energy Solutions Division of Famile Spofulam).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 02:05:09 PST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Transporting Fuel

>In my opinion, fuel shuttles on interplanetary runs make good targets 
>for pirates, which means the shuttles need to be escorted by 
>combat-capable vessels.
>
I can't see this as the only valuable thing on the fuel shuttle will be 
the Thruster Plates and your not going to get away with that unless you 
rip it out (is there a market for slighly used T-plates). Fuel shuttles 
will probably be too large to "hangar".

 I did a fuel shuttle design some time ago (now lost i as HD crash :( ). 
IIRC it was 2000 dt and 90+ % of the volume was made out of hydrogen and 
it cost very little (and did not have 20 airlocks). If I were a pirate I 
wouldn't spend my time searching for fuel shuttles (it's another matter 
if you're desperate for jump fuel).

>Ian Whitchurch

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
There are things even the light is afraid of.....
                        Terry Pratchett



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 08:30:50 -1000
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GT Patrol Cruiser

> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:20:29 EST
> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> Subject: Re: GT Patrol Cruiser
> 
> In a message dated 12/2/98 12:38:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> craig_barnett@iname.com writes:
> 
> << Comments welcome! >>
> 
> How about deck plans....?

I'm considering doing these, but I recall somebody (I can't remember
who...) on the list mentioning they had deckplans for the standard
patrol cruiser available. Do you remember who you are???

- ---
Craig Barnett     <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 18:23:53 -1000
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GT - Xboat Tender

> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:44:57 -0500
> From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
> Subject: GT - Xboat Tender
> 
> Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:52:16 -1000
> From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
> Subject: GT - Xboat Tender
>  1000ton Xboat Tender                        Tech Level 10
>  Specifications:
> **************
> Using the standard format would make this easier to read and comment on.

It might, but getting a spreadsheet to format it nicely like that is a
headache. Besides, I like it this way :)

> 
>  1000ton Unstreamlined hull, (Heavy Compartmentalisation), Sealed
> *********
> what stats did you use for the hull?

Umm...I extrapolated them from the GT book. I thought they'd be close,
but wasn't sure. Perhaps we could get a few more hull sizes posted to
the list (ie, some common low tonnage AND high tonnage hulls...)

I can also do the hulls properly when I finally get my copy of GURPS
Vehicles (when they get around to shipping it up from Sydney...)

>  Weaponry:
>  10 external turret hardpoints
> ************
> 10?...why so many?

Tenders don't normally carry weaponry, as they are usually only seen on
xboat routes which are heavily patrolled (relatively, IMTU). They should
be capable of being armed, though, especially on the frontier (and the
marches do see the occasional war or five). Allocating the full number
of turrets will allow the tender to defend itself in wartime, or for any
other reason decided on by the IISS.

>  Crew:
>  0 x Command       1 x Engineering  0 x Troops
>  1 x Helm          0 x Gunnery      0 x Science/Lab
>  1 x Navigation    0 x Stewards     0 x Flight
>  2 x Commo/Sensor  0 x Medical
>  0 x Screens       0 x Computer     Total Crew = 5
> ***************
> no extras for the xboats? engineering, spare flight crew?

I probably should have allocated them as crew. I put them in as (unseen)
crew in the extra staterooms carried on the ship.

Hmm...it still needs some more work, I think. I will post another
version soon (unless anybody objects, of course ;-).

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:03:33 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation

On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Thad Coons wrote:

 
> For a Hydrographic percentage of zero, think Sahara desert. Not
> widely inhabited, but not totally barren either. Water is mostly
> underground; Civilization is concentrated in a few oases; water
> is expensive (Cr0.5 per liter is ten times average terrestrial
> prices but still not worth shipping in) and dominates political
> issues. Oxygen for breathing you can get from silicate rocks
> given cheap enough energy; the problem is water recovery.
> The presence of even traces of water on the moon makes a big
> difference in the feasibility of colonization there.
>   
  That's how I've dealt with this too. Hyd0 planets _do_ have some water,
enough to support the population but not enough to make cheap Lhyd fuel.
Thus you could get fuel from a no water present mainworld but it would be
obscenely expensive. Better use some othe fuel source if such exists.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:23:56 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

 
> Sorry, but J1 and a microjump take the same amount of fuel. So unless
> you've got a ship that can hold fuel for *more* than 2 J1s, you *have*
> to go out there in normal space.

 Duh...why? If you have J-2, like most traders would- (I'm running in Old
Expanses. Looking at the astrography J-1 traders are pretty useless.)- you
can jump to Kuiper belt from another system, refuel, jump in (half you'r
J-2 fuel), conduct you'r business and, and jump to Kuiper belt again (the
other half of the fuel). Then you just refuel again and continue on you'r
merry way. 

 Granted you lose 2 weeks in the process, so this would not be done if
_any_ fuel is available on mainworld. But if this is the only way to get
good to a world with any significant population, traders will take it.

 BTW you indicate there's a canonical source discussing microjumps. Could
you give a reference if at all possible, i'd like to read what is said. (I
was thinking of using half of J-1 fuel for microjumo myself, but if 
canonical data is microjump=J-1 I might go with that instead.)  

> It'll take a lot more than a "few ion engines" to get it into that
> transfer orbit. And a Hohmann transfer orbit from (say) Pluto's orbit
> to Earth orbit will take somewhere between 50 and 100 years....
> (half of whatever the orbital period of a circular 20 AU radius orbit
> is) 

  OK, let's amend that to constant deceleration spiral orbit (kinda like
what you would get solar sailing fron Earth to Sun). I figure it'll still
take a couple of decedades, but the again the 20km ball of sludge _is_ a
pretty big source. Even the busiest highports would only neen to drop in a
comet evrey couple of years. And the amount of ion engines needed will not
be so large as to make it economically unfeasible, especilally since you
only need couple of hundreths of G:s of accleleration, and you get to
reuse the engines.  

 > Remember, oxygen and water have to be recycled on any planet without a
> breathable atmosphere. It's no different than a large space station,
> except that you don't have to budget as much for "structure". 

  Even with the best of enclosed habitats you get some wastage (especially
if you're trying to produce something for export). I admit you could deal
with this for thousands, at higher TL even millions of people, but there
are airless, waterless planets with _billions_ of people on the starmaps.
Even if you lose only one or two percent life support materiel per cycle
(optimistic, since you'll be doing some major exprt to support an economy
this massive) you'll be in major trouble replenishning this from offworld.

> They aren't going to be thrilled at providing
> tons of LH2 for ships though.
> 
 On this we agree.

_____________
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 12:36:28 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump...

At 01:21 07/12/1998 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 12/6/98 7:38:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>jamstar@glasscity.net writes:
>
><< What makes an AHL such a hanger queen? >>
>
>the designer of the AHL boardgame...:-). Seriously; here is some more
>incompatible canon (AHL vs HG semi-streamlined ships). How do we interpret
it?
>
Play using FFS2 and the T4 rules.

At some point a change has occurred.

In CT you have the following refuelling options:

    Full Streamlining       Starport    Gas Giant    Mainworld Ocean
    Partial Streamlining    StarPort    Gas Giant
    Unstreamlined           Starport

In T4:

    Hypersonic Streamlining Starport    Gas Giant    Mainworld Ocean
    Slower Streamlining     StarPort                 Mainworld Ocean
    Unstreamlined           Starport

The obvious conclusion is that the AHL designer was working to the T4
rules but High Guard was based on an early draft of FFS2 without the
errata.

;-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 09:57:12 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation

At 01:03 PM 07/12/98 +0200, you wrote:
>On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Thad Coons wrote:
>
> 
>> For a Hydrographic percentage of zero, think Sahara desert. Not
>> widely inhabited, but not totally barren either. Water is mostly
>> underground; Civilization is concentrated in a few oases; water
>> is expensive (Cr0.5 per liter is ten times average terrestrial
>> prices but still not worth shipping in) and dominates political
>> issues. Oxygen for breathing you can get from silicate rocks
>> given cheap enough energy; the problem is water recovery.
>> The presence of even traces of water on the moon makes a big
>> difference in the feasibility of colonization there.
>>   
>  That's how I've dealt with this too. Hyd0 planets _do_ have some water,
>enough to support the population but not enough to make cheap Lhyd fuel.
>Thus you could get fuel from a no water present mainworld but it would be
>obscenely expensive. Better use some othe fuel source if such exists.
>

        I am in the process of working out how big a no-jump refinery ship
would have to be to be able to make a 5% profit on investment from doing
round-trips between a gas giant and a mainworld and dropping the fuel off...
I'll post the design and economics information when I am done tonight...  I
am doing the design under CT, and classing the extra fuel tankage as "cargo"
for purposes of the economics.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 05:56:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie

- ---Ian wrote:
> I now know you were talking to me, but does
> Ditzie know you were talking to me *grin*
> 

Exactly how would one know, in advance, whether she's had her meds or
not?  I mean, she reacted rather kindly to her admirer (in another
thread), but what's to say that that reaction was random?  Perhaps I
have just not studied her mania long enough to see a pattern.  To be
on the safe side, I'll send along high tech artifacts with each post
as a distraction and mood enhancer.  Does she enjoy
reverse-engineering anti-matter weapons?
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 04:11:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 12/6/98 9:07:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:
>> This is an interesting topic and one i've been giving thought to, 
> recently. 
>> I
>>  seem to remember maybe a year ago, a discussion on this.   Really is time
> to
>>  get me an HIWG CD...  What Tech Level is required to seperate the hydrogen
>>  from oxygen (chemically?) in water and would it be doable at a lower tech
>>  level w/ teh knowledge from a highest tech level (16 in the Imperium
> c1116).
>
> TL 4 or 5 could do it without any help from a higher-tech civilization at 
> all.
> Check in your encyclopedia under "electrolysis."

Actually, you can generate hydrogen at even *lower* tech levels.
Sulfuric and nitric acids are producible at TL 1. React them with scrap
metal, and you get hydrogen. 

Also batteries are buildable at TL 1 if you *tell* them how. There's
evidence that batteries *were* discovered in ancient times and kept as
a secret, because the way they were discovered gave electroplating.
Which is a *great* way to rip of people by gold-plating some other
metal... :-)

Another means of producing hydrogen is by reacting steam with red-hot
coke or charcoal. This produces a mix of hydrogen and carbon monoxide.
This is how they produced "illuminating gas" in Victorian times. And it
works ok in balloons.

There are ways of seperating the CO from the H2. But if you are
producing it for a ship, the ship can seperate it easily enough. The CO
will liquefy long before the hydrogen does. So you can run it through a
cryogenic condensor, and "dump" the CO. I'd send it back to the
natives, they can store it, or burn it to heat the coke.

And I *think* that at the TL that can produce illuminating gas, they
may be able to build the gear required to condense out the CO on their
own! They won't ber able to condense the hydrogen, nor will they be
able to store it at very high pressure, so it'll take *huge* storage
tanks. 

> The ocean surface of Earth covers about 139 million square miles.  Assume
> an average depth of about one mile and we get about 2 x 10^19 cubic feet of
> seawater . . .that works out to about 5.6 x 10^20 liters.  An old earth-
> sciences text I have handy gives about 110 grams of hydrogen per liter,
> so we get 6.16 x 10^22 grams or about 6 x 10^16 metric tons of hydrogen.
>
> My guess is, you could refuel a squadron of dreadnaughts every day for a
> thousand years and not make a noticeable dent.
>
> You know, I'd never considered this before.  Getting your LHyd from seawater
> strikes me as, well, *safer* than ramming yourself through a Jovian planet's
> atmosphere. . .

Yep. And melting ice is safe too.

I figure that only planets that don't have enough water for their own
planned use (say someplace like Mars) are going to get sticky about it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 04:29:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump

In mail you write:

>> > 4.  If its tankage is *that* delicate, how can it be expected to stand up
>> and
>> > fight a battle??
>> 
>> Delicate compared to the stress caused by the same "severe atmospheric
>> buffeting" incidents caused by the flight through the turbulent atmosphere 
> of
>> a gas giant.  Aren't the fuel tanks intended to serve as a "cushion" in 
> HG/CT?
>
> No, they're not.  And I'd guess that a good hot combat would be inherently 
> *more* stressful than a skimming run.  There would be lots of jinking 
> around, and inertial compensating is *not* part of the fuel tankage.  I saw 
> a reference for that under CT, but
>  I'll be damned if I can remember *where* I saw it.  This means that the 
> fuel is going to be sloshing around all over the place, irregardless of any 
> baffling.  If the tanks were so delicate that they couldn't survive a 
> skimming run, then they wouldn't survive a combat.

The thing is, during combat the *only* "severe buffetting" that a ship
will experience is transmitted shock waves from missile impacts, or
chunks of armor exploding from beam hits. 

"Jinking" to make the ship harder to hit will be almost unnoticeable,
as the ship's main engines are always pointing in much the same
direction *relative to the hull*. You change the direction the ship is
going by rotating it so the engines point in a different direction. 

The turning forces will be *less* than a g except on fighters. 

The forces encountered on gas giant skimming run are both a lot
stronger *and* being aerodynamic rather than inertial, they will be in
different directions and exerted at quite different points on the
airframe. 

Consider that jet fighters than can survive *violent* manuevers in
combat avoid thunderstorms because the wind forces in them can rip the
plane to shreds.

Weather, even the *mild* stuff we have on earth, can produce *far* more
stress than a ship will undergo in combat. On a gas giant, you are
dealing with storms bigger than many planets! 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 04:40:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 12/6/98 8:38:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> Sapience@compuserve.com writes:
>
> <<  Are you
>  *sure* something that heavily armored is going to float?  >>
>
> Find a shallow lake or sea, and settle down on the bottom to refuel. I assume
> multi G man. drives can break the mud suction....

Do recall that a cubic meter of water weighs a ton. That means that for
every meter of depth, you have another *ton* of pressure on every
square meter of hull. 

Then consider that submarines can be detected *visually* in as much as
30 meters of water (maybe more). I find it highly unlikely that your
ship is braced for 30 tons per square meter *inward* pressure. 

Among other things, remember that airlocks open *in* on spacecraft,
because that way the air pressure inside holds them closed. Submerge,
and the outside pressure is higher, and only the "latch" is resisting
all that pressure!

Iris hatches aren't going to handle that sort of pressure well. And the
only other kind of pressure hatch that *doesn't* suffer from the "opens
in/out" problem is a "rolling block" type seal as seen on Cardassian
airlocks on Deep Space 9. It's a nice design for hatches that you need
to be *strong*, and to open regardless of pressure differential. But
it's not suited to the outer hull. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1251
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, December 7 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1252



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Transporting Fuel Insystem
re: Two Parsec Jump
re: Sylean Battleship Refueling
X-Boat Wait times (was re: Traveller-Digest...)
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
re: Transporting Fuel In-System
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Re: Two parsec jump...
Re: Courier networks
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Re: Courier networks
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
BTE 1: IMTU Newsletter
re: Courier Networks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 04:48:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting Fuel Insystem

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson replied:
>
>>> Without risk premiums, it is fairly cheap to build a low-gee
>>> transport, to take hydrogen from the refuelling source (gas
>>> giant, ice asteroid etc) to the mainworld's starport.
>
>>But it takes a *long* time to transport any significant amount.
>>You either need a *lot* of ships in the "pipeline", or you need
>>to be able to move the source closer to the port. Neither is
>>cheap. Operating costs will eat you alive.
>
>     I've had notions of putting a refinery out in orbit a safe
> distance away from a GG. [Insurance carriers will love you for
> it, though cash-strapped merchants might not]. Maybe have RP
> drones do the skimming.  Even better, if there's an icy moon you
> can put the refinery there and leave the GG itself safely alone.
>     I'd also seriously consider running strings of RPVs from the
> refinery to the starport (What is there for a crew to do except
> at the ends of a run?). Terrestrial systems prefer pipelines for
> this kind of work, but I don't think a pipeline with ends in
> relative motion and several AU long is going to work. I'd expect
> a good TL and a severe shortage of hydrogen on the mainworld to
> be prerequisites for insystem shipping of it anyway.

Think of it as a conveyer belt with no belt. :-)

Actually, it's cheaper to not use vehicles at all. Use some sort of
"tug" to place the tanks (or whatever) into a transfer orbit that has
an adequate safety margin. Hang big radar corners off them so they
stand out like a sore thumb (a radar corner a meter across gives a
radar return like a "normal" ship 10-100 meters across!). At the
destination, tugs go out intercept the cargo and drag it into parking
orbits.

This minimizes the investment in drives and avionics, and maximizes the
amount of cargo that gets moved. You don't do it with more expensive
cargos, but for bulk cargos it's ideal. 

>>> Without risk premiums, it is fairly cheap to build a low-gee
>>> transport to take hydrogen from the refuelling source (gas
>>> giant, ice asteroid etc) to
>>> the mainworld's starport.
>
>>But it taks a *long* time to transport any significant amount.
>>You either need a *lot* of ships in the "pipeline", or you need
>>to be able to move the source closer to the port. Neither is
>>cheap. Operating costs will eat you alive. 
>
> There is also the comet-grabbing option. Take a couple of decades
> to steer a suitable object into a suitable solar approach orbit.
> (Mountain sized objects are hardly renowned for their
> maneuverability). Wait several more for gravity to bring it in.
> Relatively cheap if you're in no particular hurry.
>
> Or this might be the Traveller version of towing icebergs to LA.
> (Nice thought but not worth the trouble once you know where the $
> signs need to go.)

I think it's practical only if you want to take 50+ years. That's why
my scenario had people *living* on the asteroid/comet and processing
while it was in transit. 

Also, it occurs to me that given the number of comets detected every
year, there should be a fair number that only need a *small* nudge to
go deeper into the system, and a slightly larger one to get them into a
favorable relationship with where the target planet will be when they
get there.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:57:00 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Two Parsec Jump

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The AHL board game had a scenario aboard the wreck of an AHL
> (_Bard Refuge_?) that tried this stunt and had the bad luck of running
> into a flight of SDB's, which got in a lucky drive-disabling shot.
> Whether spacesuited characters could survive on the decks of a ship
> floating tail-down in a methane sea on a gas giant is another question.

I don't see that as a likely happening.  How much metal do you have to throw 
at an AHL in order to guarantee you take it out and still get back home?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Who said anything about getting back home? All we heard about the
engagment was that the AHL-class died, we don't know how many
SDB's she took with her.

It's also quite possible that the ship was already damaged when attacked.
She had already visited several enemy systems, and refuelled while
running from another enemy battlegroup. 

And if you're sensors are comprimised, I can kill your 60ktn ship with
just about any SDB in inventory. No point defense means my missiles
can ram your ship before exploding - heck, they may not need to
even bother exploding. Your ship is very easy for my missile guidance
to see in all that gas giant gunk, compared to how my missiles will
show up on your fire control.

Keven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Still, the ships had enough armour for hull rigidity, as well as fuel scoops 
for skimming.  Just use the damned things.  Hell, even 200 kiloton Plankwells 
have scoops and can use 'em.  What makes an AHL such a hanger queen?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I would say that she's technically "partially streamlined", but more
optimized for deep space work than the average partially streamlined
ship - there may have been some details not well represented in the
HG design system. The HG system applies standardizations to
ship designs, it probably doesn't cover every detail - did you ever
notice how many CT ship descriptions had a "peculiarities" section?
The infamous inferior air filters on the standard type-S scout
certainly don't show up on it's HG Universal Starship Profile.

BTW, a highly skilled crew can, on the average, pull off a gas giant skim
with an AHL, even before the service life upgrades (higher-tech bracing
for the fuel decks) mentioned in the _Arrival Vengeance_ scenario.
They may lose some fuel, but probably less than j-1's worth and
probably through damage that can be repaired during jump.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:00:14 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Sylean Battleship Refueling

Keven Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just about everything in the old Supplement 9: Fighting Ships of the Imperium 
is capable of skimming.  This includes the venerable 500 kton Tigress class 
battleships.  Every capital ship mentioned has fuel scoops and integral 
purification plants.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not the _Arakoine_ class strike cruiser. This baby has a dispersed
structure hull, no skimming for this ship. It does have fuel processors
so it can take fuel skimmed by others.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:05:20 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: X-Boat Wait times (was re: Traveller-Digest...)

A. O'Mary wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Umm, I don't think that an x-boat ever has to wait to transfer it's data. That's what the Tender is for. The X-boat transfers it's data to the big data banks on the tender, which then sorts it and dumps it to the next boat going in the right direction, or
 to the local planet's data system for distribution, depending on the message's destination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If the messages are intended for the next system down the line, the
data will have to wait until an X-Boat is going that way. The wait may
be measured in hours (or minutes) along a main trunk, the wait may
be days along a backwater side branch.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 09:14:49 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

At 03:38 PM 12/6/98 EST, you wrote:
>I have a question for the list:
>
>Is it possible for a gas giant planet in the habitable zone of a star, to
have
>a moon with a breathable oxy-nitro atmosphere and liquid water?
>
>I was under the assumption that a gas giant in the habitable zone would lose
>it's gas atmosphere (hydrogen-ammonia boils off?) and no longer have the mass
>to attract a big enough moon to have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere.
>
>OK astronomers and phyicists; please enlighten this liberal arts weinee...

It's very possible to have a moon of a Gas Giant with a habitable
environment. Just because a Gas Giant is mostly gas does not mean it's not
dense enough to have sufficient gravity to attract heavy satelite bodies.
Saturn does have a density low enough to allow it to float on water (if you
could find a body of water big enough to try), but it's total mass is
enormous (how many moons dos she have?). Jupiter, the king of them all, has
several moons near the size of Luna (the earth's moon) and one bigger I
believe (Titan).

IMTU, the capital of my largest empire is in a multi - star system where
all the neighbor stars are very distant so as to allow each star a maximum
number of orbits (under MT generation rules). At least 2 of the stars have
GG in their habitable zones and have habitable worlds. The main capital
moon is one of 2 habitable worlds around it's Gas Giant.

The main problem with habitable worlds around a Gas Giant is the Gas Giant.
Think of the seasons on earth, they are governed by the amount of warmth
recieved from the sun. Now, conciter, if there was a large object that
periodically cut off your access to this warmth. Your habitable world would
have to be in a high, fast orbit around this Giant to minimize the amount
of time cut off from the star or you will have long periods of very
inhospitable weather, not likely very healthy for the development of life.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 09:16:13 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

At 07:46 PM 12/6/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>
>> I have a question for the list:
>>
>> Is it possible for a gas giant planet in the habitable zone of a star,
to have
>> a moon with a breathable oxy-nitro atmosphere and liquid water?
>>
>> I was under the assumption that a gas giant in the habitable zone would
lose
>> it's gas atmosphere (hydrogen-ammonia boils off?) and no longer have the
mass
>> to attract a big enough moon to have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere.
>>
>> OK astronomers and phyicists; please enlighten this liberal arts weinee...
>
>I mentioned this in my "Nature of Hydrogen" post.  Gas Giants won't form
until you
>go out past the "Ice line"  The "Ice Line" is out beyond the habitable
zone of a
>star.  However, Gas Giants can put out some heat so the moons could be in the
>habitable zone of the Gas Giant rather than the star itself.

Actually, in the recent discoveries concerning extrasolar planets, there is
a Gas Giant in orbit zone one with an orbit of 4 days around one paticular
star.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:16:01 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Transporting Fuel In-System

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Think of it as a conveyer belt with no belt. :-)

Actually, it's cheaper to not use vehicles at all. Use some sort of
"tug" to place the tanks (or whatever) into a transfer orbit that has
an adequate safety margin. Hang big radar corners off them so they
stand out like a sore thumb (a radar corner a meter across gives a
radar return like a "normal" ship 10-100 meters across!). At the
destination, tugs go out intercept the cargo and drag it into parking
orbits.

This minimizes the investment in drives and avionics, and maximizes the
amount of cargo that gets moved. You don't do it with more expensive
cargos, but for bulk cargos it's ideal. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Makes me wonder if refuelling for the ethically-challenged merchant
would be easier in a system that was doing this. Why get close to
the mainworld or gas giant, when there's this continuous stream of
icebergs crossing a chunk of the system?

And if these icebergs each have the radar signature of a ship 100m wide,
I could imagine some intrepid soul trying to hide a little corsair among
them, just for a little while...

_Ice Pirates_, anyone?  <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 08:09:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:

> >  I was under the assumption that a gas giant in the habitable zone would
> lose
> >  it's gas atmosphere (hydrogen-ammonia boils off?) and no longer have the
> > mass
> >  to attract a big enough moon to have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere.
> 
> I can seense some misconceptions lurking behind your explanation, but I'm
> too tired right now to try and clear them up.
> 
> The canonical model for planetary formation claimed that gas giant worlds
> would only form at relatively large distances from their primary stars
> (outside
> the "ice line" as Joe Pettit says.  Unfortunately for the canonical model,
> we've
> detected a number of cases in the last couple of years where a planet of
> Jovian
> mass exists *very close* to the primary -- far inside the "ice line."  I have
> yet to
> read a convincing reconciliation of this with the canonical model. 

(Thad and Bruce M. Feel utterly free to destroy any wrong statements I make here...)

Hmmm...actually, there is no evidence that these 'giant planets' so close to
the primary are _gas_ giants...ALL we know is that there seems to be a large
non luminous body orbiting very close to the primary.

As I've said before, developing models of planetary system development on the
basis of n=1 is likely to be largely speculation.

The 'ice line' and likely elemental composition of various orbits _are_ very
probably correct; that's based on well known physical properties. How planets
of various sizes form are certainly far less well known, and could well have
significant random components of which we're not aware. Gas giants, are
probably hard to format a small scale, there isn't the mass to hold all that
gas together. But giant rocky planets, that will depend _entirely_ on the
composition and concentration of dust and debris in the inner zones of the
protostellar system as it's forming. If there are high concentrations, we
could very well end up with some very large, rocky planets there.

We have, ferinstance, accrete, a well known model of planetary system
formation. I'll have to peruse the code, but I don't think it even allows for
very large planets near the primary. BUT it's based on certain assumptions
we've made concerning system formation...if those are wrong, our model is
inaccurate: GIGO.

Second, lets consider our methods of _finding_ these extrasolar
planets...looking for perturbations in the stars position. That's going to
automatically filter _out_ systems with many, small planets. The only ones we
can find right now, with this technique, might very well be anomalous systems.

Thirdly, some people have advaced the theory that the extrasolar planets we're
seeing (very large, very close to the primary) didn't form there, but what
we're seeing is the end stages of catastrophe, with a planet formed far out in
the system spiraling inward towards the primary, due to some hugantous orbit
perturbation. Shades of Velikovsky, but at least they're not saying that this
planet rained manna down on the planets it passed along the way. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:08:40 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump...

Keven asked:

>What makes an AHL such a hanger queen?


'Cause there wasn't a GDW product titled "Plankwell?" ;-D

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:11:12 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Courier networks

Erwin Fritz (I think) writes: 

>Umm, I don't think that an x-boat ever has to wait to transfer it's data.
>That's what the Tender is for. The X-boat transfers it's data to the big
>data banks on the tender, which then sorts it and dumps it to the next boat
>going in the right direction, or to the local planet's data system for
>distribution, depending on the message's destination.

"As an xboat arrives in a system, it beams its recorded mesages to the
express station, which then retransmits it to an xboat standing by for a
jump outsystem. Time between jumps is almost always less than four hours,
and can be under seven minutes."
					-- Library Data (A-M), p. 26-27.


Hmmm... I wonder if one of our resident gear-heads can use that information
to estimate the maximum amount of data that is usually carried by an X-boat?
Is there some sort of theoretical limit to signal density that limits how
much information can be beamed across empty space in two hours?

>Off-topic, but in your TU's is there a central disaster relief agency like
>the Red Cross to help with major disasters?

Yep, it's called Red Symbol. ;-)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:17:43 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

At 01:30 AM 12/7/98 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/6/98 9:02:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>jamstar@glasscity.net writes:
>
><< Just about everything in the old Supplement 9: Fighting Ships of the
>Imperium 
> is capable of skimming.  This includes the venerable 500 kton Tigress class 
> battleships.  Every capital ship mentioned has fuel scoops and integral 
> purification plants.
>  >>
>
>quite true. My personal spin on this is that the AHL boardgame was designed
>either before HG was (and thus didn't know that semi-streamlined is gas giant
>approved), or this was ignored to give the ship some interesting flaws for
>role playing purposes...

IIRC, the AHL class was only to skim fuel in emergencies due to stresses on
the hull due to the unique protrusion on the bow that had the glass domed
aux bridge and on Arrival Vengance the bar.  It seemed that too much torque
on the gooseneck.


Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 07:22:23 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

This is not exactly an answer, just a comment on what I've done IMTU.

My current pbem group, on hold ATM unfortunately, started on the moon of 
a large GG in the hab zone.  The GG is affectionately called 'Brownie' 
since the temperature has churned the atmo into a morass of organic 
compounds.  Really nasty looking, and it smells bad too....

JimC

- ----Original Message Follows----
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:30:53 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM


>I was under the assumption that a gas giant in the habitable zone would lose
>it's gas atmosphere (hydrogen-ammonia boils off?) and no longer have the mass
>to attract a big enough moon to have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere.

There are actually models that show a gas giant could retain significant
atmosphere (like all of it) even around the orbit of mercury; gas giant
gravity is a mighty force. 

The reason for these models is that there are half a dozen systems with
observational evidence (indirect, but good) of jupiter-mass planets with
orbits of 0.05 to 2 AU.

What isn't well known is how to *form* a gas giant at those separations.
Most models form the gas giants out at the edge and then shuffle them in
(though near-collisions or tidal drag.)

Bruce



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:32:23 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>(Thad and Bruce M. Feel utterly free to destroy any wrong statements I make here...)

I'm not Thad or Bruce, but I'll jump in anyway :-)

>
>Hmmm...actually, there is no evidence that these 'giant planets' so close to
>the primary are _gas_ giants...ALL we know is that there seems to be a large
>non luminous body orbiting very close to the primary.

The reason for calling them gas giants are based on their masses. The *current*
models state that anything under 80 jupiter masses is a gas giant while objects
over 80 j.masses up to 0.08 solar masses are brown dwarfs. From there up you
have stars.  

>Second, lets consider our methods of _finding_ these extrasolar
>planets...looking for perturbations in the stars position. That's going to
>automatically filter _out_ systems with many, small planets. The only ones we
>can find right now, with this technique, might very well be anomalous systems.

We have no way of saying anything about the formation of smaller planets
based on the current observations. But the technique used is capable and have
faound systems where gas giants are where their *suppose* to be. 

>Thirdly, some people have advaced the theory that the extrasolar planets we're
>seeing (very large, very close to the primary) didn't form there, but what
>we're seeing is the end stages of catastrophe, with a planet formed far out in
>the system spiraling inward towards the primary, due to some hugantous orbit
>perturbation. Shades of Velikovsky, but at least they're not saying that this
>planet rained manna down on the planets it passed along the way. ;-)

I think that a giant planet wandering in from outsystem will clean up almost
everything from its startingpoint in to where it is. A wandering is a slow
process that takes millions of years. (I might even be that all giants will
wander in, just that it hasn't happened in the Sol system yet :-)


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:47:48 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Courier networks

Gary (TravelrTNE@aol.com) writes:

>>>I agree there is a niche for point-to-point high jump courier routes,
>>>but I see them as complementing the X-Boat system.
>> 
>>So do I. But canon says the X-boats are the fastest available means.
>>That's what I've argued against. Not the existense of the X-boats, but
>>that they are all there is.
> 
>Canon says that the X-boats are the "fastest available means?"  I don't see
>anything that says that.

"...express boat links have been established to insure the rapid transmission
of messages (governmental, commercial, and private) with a maximum of
efficiency."
				--- Library Data (A-M), p. 26

>Just that it's "designed to make optimum use of jump technology" (which
>isn't necessarily false).

Yes it is. It is easy to design an Jump-4 X-boat system that is more
efficient than the one supposedly in use in the OTU. Introducing jump-5
and jump-6 links in selected places can improve things even more.

>Whether a J6 X-boat network is economical (and thus "optimum") or not...

A purely jump-6 network is almost certainly not optimal, since the boats
would be forced to jump short far too often. But then, Steven, Ian, and I
are not talking about pure jump-6 networks. 

>It would depend on an economic analysis I don't think is possible due to
>insufficient (and unwanted, for some) information. 

Let's see. We can get a list of worlds that we want connected by checking 
what worlds are connected by the official network. There may be some
controversy over whether some worlds are "stepping stones" (worlds that
is part of the network only as intermediate stops rather than goals in
their own right) or not, but I suggest that we could get around that
provided everyone genuinely wanted to work out something plausible. We
know what an xboat and an exboat tender costs (or can work it out if we
can agree on what ship construction system we use). What other information
do you think is needed?

>In the ref's section for the MT Imperial Encyclopedia, it would seem your
>theory on the bureaucracy using the naval courier "network" might be correct,
>Hans.  I don't if it's been pointed out or not, as I haven't followed this
>thread closely but: "Knowing vital facts before they become general knowledge
>is essential to a well-run bureaucracy."  pg 49. Course maybe I'm being too
>literal? ; )

No, you just accept the concept that the Emperor would be able to repress
private high-jump courier networks (by 'private' I mean corporate) and be
able to prevent people from leaking privviledged information. No doubt the
Emperor could occasionally "Knowing vital facts before they become general
knowledge" (though whether the benefit would outweigh the problems caused
by the slower general communications is highly doubtful), but the amount of
control over private institutions that that implies is staggering.  

>It also depends on the definition of "bureaucracy" and even the
>casing of such, no?
> 
>IMTU, the Emperor had good reason to be wary of an increasingly corrupt
>bureaucracy.

But the lines you quote above imply that the Imperial Bureaucracy IS the
recipients of that extra fast information, no?

>...Above this, J5 & J6 was restricted and required heavy permits (and not
>allowed for even a sector wide service, which could/would blatantly reveal
>the control system that was the Express-boat network), more so than lower
>jump drives.

And the restrictions required to ensure that those regulations wasn't
subverted didn't reveal it just as blatantly? Riiiiight!

>The Emperor's share (and control) in the megacorps ensured they didn't
>violate this,either.

None of the Emperor's shares in the megacorps would give him control of
them.

>They want a private system like the Imperiallines operation, that won't
>spill the beans and would remain under wraps, fine, as long as they keep
>it quiet (and 'secret' ala Imperiallines) and, of course, the possible
>presence of an INI "representative"/watchdog/monitor.  : ) Any that violate
>the Emperor's wishes might find themselves going the way of the Zhunastu
>Corp.  ; )
> 
>Is there anything in canon to violate any of that?

Only the notion that the advance news of the Emperor's assasination somehow
got to Norris alone. The setup you mention for YTU (which, incidentally, is
pretty much how things work IMTU except that I don't see the need for the
secrecy) would have several hundred people recieve the advance notice*. You
may be ready to believe that several hundred people with as many different
agendas can keep such a secret. I don't.

*Heads of Imperial Bureaucracy on all worlds, megacorporate sector managers,
 fleet admirals plus anyone they felt the need to consult.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:01:34 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> At 01:30 AM 12/7/98 -0500, you wrote:

> > quite true. My personal spin on this is that the AHL boardgame
> > was designed either before HG was (and thus didn't know that
> > semi-streamlined is gas giant approved), or this was ignored
> > to give the ship some interesting flaws for role playing
> > purposes...
>
> IIRC, the AHL class was only to skim fuel in emergencies due to
> stresses on the hull due to the unique protrusion on the bow that
> had the glass domed aux bridge and on Arrival Vengance the bar.
> It seemed that too much torque on the gooseneck.


Supplement 5 - Lightning Class Cruisers, which shipped  with  the
AHL boardgame (and nowhere else), includes both 1st  edition  and
2nd edition HG stats.

The supplement also lists three modes of refuelling:

    "Administrative Refuelling" - When there is no  enemy  threat
    present the fuel shuttles are used to skim the gas  giant  or
    world ocean for fuel.  Duration = 3 days for full refuel from
    GG, or 7 days for full refuel from world ocean.

    "Tactical Refuelling" - As administrative refuelling but with
    the fuel shuttles protected by the  AHL's  fighters  and  big
    guns.  Duration = same as administrative refuelling  if  full
    refuel, or 15 hours for enough from a gas giant for jump-1.

    "Emergency Refuelling" - AHL skims the  gas  giant  directly.
    Dangers are:
        1) Loss of fuel shuttles - fuel shuttles  attach  to  the
           AHL externally and during this operation  there  is  a
           chance they may be torn from their mountings.
        2) Loss of fuel deck integrity  -  severe  buffeting  can
           result in one or more fuel decks buckling (and not  be
           able to retain fuel).
        3) Drive damage - severe buffeting can result in internal
           damage to the m-drives.  Worst case scenario is AHL is
           lost into the gas giant!



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - My Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:05:32 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: BTE 1: IMTU Newsletter

<Shameless Plug>
I have organized my IMTU notes as a 24-pages Newsletter (fanzine?). 
You can download it as a .PDF file from my Traveller page

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772

or my campaign page

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772/bte.html

Feel free to download. The material is also in the campaign page 
(almost all), but the Newsletter has it organized.

And all I ask for is the occasional comment... ;-)

Note on legalisms:Posted with Marc's permission.
</Shameless Plug>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:01:51 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Courier Networks

Hans Ranke-Madsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Whether a J6 X-boat network is economical (and thus "optimum") or not...

A purely jump-6 network is almost certainly not optimal, since the boats
would be forced to jump short far too often. But then, Steven, Ian, and I
are not talking about pure jump-6 networks. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've been wondering if the ability to use any ship on any leg of the
network would be worth the efficiency drop of ships jumping short.

In the current X-Boat system, a large number of functionally (and
perhaps completely) identical couriers populate the network. When
your courier arrives in Regina from Dinomn, the X-Boat administrator
can send you on to Roup, Jenghe, Extolay, wherever you're needed as
soon as your boat is ready to jump again - and even with only cursory
drive checks and refuelling, your X-Boat probably won't be ready to
go back to Dinomn before some other boat already in-system
could leave. 

If you have different jump capabilities on different couriers, those
couriers become tied to specific legs of the route. While you can
transfer them to same (or smaller) length legs elsewhere, you'll
also see legs that some of your couriers can't do at all.

A benefit of tying particular boats to particular legs would be
increased reliability of that leg - you have ships dedicated to
keeping it running. If couriers go where they are needed, you
may have an administrative error pile X-Boats up in one system
and deplete them in another.

We're given a 20% discount for standard designs, to reflect
economies of scale and shipyards becoming familiar with the
construction process. If your production run is enough X-Boats
to keep the Imperium in contact with itself, should your discount
be bigger? Say, big enough to make one model (even if it is often
inefficient due to shorter jumps than it can do) cheaper than
three or four variant models?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1252
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Monday, December 7 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1253



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT Patrol Cruiser
Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation
Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
Re: Two parsec jump
Re: Third try...
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
Re: GT Patrol Cruiser
BITS announces US Distribution Deal with SJG
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1250
Re: BTE 1: IMTU Newsletter
Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruisers
Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruisers
Re: Fusion Plus
Re: Pirates :)
Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Alternate Universe Rational
Re: Fusion Plus

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 11:20:26 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: GT Patrol Cruiser

At 08:30 AM 12/5/98 -1000, you wrote:
>> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:20:29 EST
>> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>> Subject: Re: GT Patrol Cruiser
>> 
>> In a message dated 12/2/98 12:38:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>> craig_barnett@iname.com writes:
>> 
>> << Comments welcome! >>
>> 
>> How about deck plans....?
>
>I'm considering doing these, but I recall somebody (I can't remember
>who...) on the list mentioning they had deckplans for the standard
>patrol cruiser available. Do you remember who you are???

I have a scan of the Fasa deckplans but have not posted it.  If permission
is granted, I'll be glad to post them.  I have most of the old Fasa plans
reduced and ready to scan.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:17:19 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie

In message <3.0.5.16.19981206221211.4ff78280@mail.orac.net.au>, Ian or
Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> writes
>#2, she works in Famile Spofulam's High Energy Solutions division, and is
>currently working on a Plasma Chain Gun, to go in the chin turret of the
>new TL12 Combat Helicopter. The helicopter's main gun is a 100 MJ plasma
>gun, that should be capable of penetrating 40 cm of superdense.

How fast does the helo fly backwards when when the main gun fires?
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:08:52 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    "Emergency Refuelling" - AHL skims the  gas  giant  directly.
    Dangers are:
        1) Loss of fuel shuttles - fuel shuttles  attach  to  the
           AHL externally and during this operation  there  is  a
           chance they may be torn from their mountings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Interestingly enough, the relevant skill to prevent loss of a Fuel Shuttle
if this crisis occurs is the pilot skill on board the _Fuel Shuttle_,
not the cruiser.

Since I can't see someone maneuvering a shuttle while it's in an
external cradle, it may be that this crisis involves the shuttle ripping
free of it's cradle and the pilot on board struggling to gain control and
take up formation with the cruiser. They'll have to quickly jury-rig
a replacement carry sling once they're out of the GG atmosphere
if they want to bring the saved fuel shuttle with them.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 12:12:41 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation

At 09:57 AM 12/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 01:03 PM 07/12/98 +0200, you wrote:
>>On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Thad Coons wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> For a Hydrographic percentage of zero, think Sahara desert. Not
>>> widely inhabited, but not totally barren either. Water is mostly
>>> underground; Civilization is concentrated in a few oases; water
>>> is expensive (Cr0.5 per liter is ten times average terrestrial
>>> prices but still not worth shipping in) and dominates political
>>> issues. Oxygen for breathing you can get from silicate rocks
>>> given cheap enough energy; the problem is water recovery.
>>> The presence of even traces of water on the moon makes a big
>>> difference in the feasibility of colonization there.
>>>   
>>  That's how I've dealt with this too. Hyd0 planets _do_ have some water,
>>enough to support the population but not enough to make cheap Lhyd fuel.
>>Thus you could get fuel from a no water present mainworld but it would be
>>obscenely expensive. Better use some othe fuel source if such exists.
>>
>
>        I am in the process of working out how big a no-jump refinery ship
>would have to be to be able to make a 5% profit on investment from doing
>round-trips between a gas giant and a mainworld and dropping the fuel off...
>I'll post the design and economics information when I am done tonight...  I
>am doing the design under CT, and classing the extra fuel tankage as "cargo"
>for purposes of the economics.

As long as it is not the Nostromo...

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:18:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

Allen Shock writes:
> TRANSLATOR's NOTES (not designers, since I didn't make this ship up
> originally);
> This ship is severely underarmored from what it's Armor factor in High
> Guard indicated it should be, which was around 18,000 DR in GURPS. The
> reason for this, of course, is that it could not match it's performance
> stats with that much armor.
Hm..I think you underarmored it anyway.  My rule of thumb is that any tonnage
used for armor (in the HG design) should be filled with manuever drive instead.
If you have excess space, you can use that for manuever drive too.  My version
of the high lightning was pretty lightly armored (about DR 8,000) and did 4 Gs;
if I'd cut it down to 2 Gs it would have had about 33,000 DR (only DR 4,000 on
the turrets; I placed the missile bays in internal mounts rather as external
turrets, so they don't add any surface area).  It also made use of my
generalized spinal mounts, with a rating-67 mount doing 6d*20,000.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:20:19 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump

>>>>
Thus, the AHL is the only CT and MT semi-streamlined ship that has
this
problem. She is quite a "canon-breaker". She is also (along with the
Gazelle)
the only ship with external small craft, in a rule system with no
external
craft design rules! (though HG IMPLIES that dispersed structure ships
are
built that way-they can launch EVERYBODY simultaneously, but still
require
volume dedicated to these craft-what a gip!!). Unfortunately; I am
"New Era
challenged", so I have no idea if FF+S. FF+S2, etc., fixed this.
Gary; what's
the story with this?

Seth
>>>>
The AHL design does include  the external craft in the overall design
volume AFAIK.  The idea being that you need to provide for them in the
Jump field (none of the AHL external craft have Jump drives IIRC). 
This would also be true for any other dispersed stucture ships.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 13:21:47 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Third try...

Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> writes:
>I am looking for the e-mail address of the person/s who posted the
>deckplans for the Sydkai class cruiser on thier web page.  In all the
>documentation I was unable to locate the URL or the address of the creator
>and I have a few questions.

When you find it, let me know.

As one of the authors of the Sydkai, I'd be interested in seeing the old
girl. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:23:26 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

In a message dated 12/7/98 6:04:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< Do recall that a cubic meter of water weighs a ton. That means that for
 every meter of depth, you have another *ton* of pressure on every
 square meter of hull. 
 
 Then consider that submarines can be detected *visually* in as much as
 30 meters of water (maybe more). I find it highly unlikely that your
 ship is braced for 30 tons per square meter *inward* pressure. 
 
 Among other things, remember that airlocks open *in* on spacecraft,
 because that way the air pressure inside holds them closed. Submerge,
 and the outside pressure is higher, and only the "latch" is resisting
 all that pressure!
 
 Iris hatches aren't going to handle that sort of pressure well. And the
 only other kind of pressure hatch that *doesn't* suffer from the "opens
 in/out" problem is a "rolling block" type seal as seen on Cardassian
 airlocks on Deep Space 9. It's a nice design for hatches that you need
 to be *strong*, and to open regardless of pressure differential. But
 it's not suited to the outer hull. 
  >>

Oh well; I tried....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:31:25 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 06:00:29 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
In a fit of fevered delirium, I decided to design my own version of the
Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser. I hewed fairly close to Supplement 9:
Fighting Ships, consulting Supplement 5 when I couldn't find what I wanted
there. One change I did make was to use the 40-ton fuel skimmer instead of
designing a 400-ton version, thus this ship has 10 times the number of
skimmers that the Supp. 9 version had :) Thanks go to Hal for his hull
tables, and to both Hal and CmdrX who helped with the design of the fusion
guns. Much of this ship is highly apocryphal from a GT standpoint, but what
the heck, it's my game :)
*****************
would the savings in pilots make the larger skimmers worthwile? some
preliminary calculations show that bigger skimmers are more cost effective
(but skimming can be more impared by lose of a single big skimmer.).

CREW: 1x Captain, 1x Executive Officer, 2x Pilots, 2x Navigators, 4x Sensor
Ops, 4x Commo Ops, 2x Computer Officers, 4x Screens Officers, 121x
Engineers, 409x Gunners, 7x Medics, 150x Troops, 80x Fighter Pilots, 45x
Small Craft Pilots, plus a frozen watch of 312 additional crew.
*****************
Consider having enough bridge crew for 3 shifts on one bridge. why 4
screens off?  consider making 2 of them gunnery officers with override
controls for the spinal mounts/some of the missiles.

(yes I am still working on theose sensor drones.)




60,000 ton USL hull with Heavy compartmentilization, DR 7700, 190 turrets
with three lasers each, 90 turrets with three Sandcasters each, 40 turrets
with two Fusion guns each, 24 Missle Bays with 3,800 missles and 50 missle
racks each, Radical Emissions Cloaking, 2 Command Bridges, hardened (1 Main
Bridge, 1 Auxilliary Bridge), Engineering, 8400 Maneuver, 3600 Jump, 30000
Jump Fuel, 78 Low Berths, 620 Staterooms (62 single occupancy, 385 double
occupancy, 173 normally unoccupied), 6 Sickbay, 120 Utility, Spacedock for
80 fighters, Spacedock for 40 fuel skimmers, 5 Vehicle Bays for 40-ton
pinnaces, 20 Fuel Processors (187.5 hours to purify full load), Meson
Screen
(DR 488), Nuclear Damper (25 mile radius), "Factor N" Spinal mount particle
accelerator, 6440 Cargo.
*******************88
Consider adding more Fuel Processors to bring that time down.  there is
enough cargo space that could be converted to manuver drives that you could
increase the armor.  the DR on the meson screen is so low as to not bother
with it at all.



STATISTICS: EMass 377,152.9 LMass 421,400.9 Cost Mcr 26,145.18 Hit Points
868,941 Hull Size Modifier +14
PERFORMANCE: Accel 2.0 G's, Jump 5.
**************
looks good on a glance through.



TRANSLATOR's NOTES (not designers, since I didn't make this ship up
originally);
This ship is severely underarmored from what it's Armor factor in High
Guard
indicated it should be, which was around 18,000 DR in GURPS. The reason for
this, of course, is that it could not match it's performance stats with
that
much armor.
*****************888
Did you try cutting some of that massive cargo space?  I think you could
almost double the DR....


This leads me to believe that GURPS designed space combat
weapons badly outstrip the ability of ships built with the GURPS vehicles
system and designed for Traveller to defend against them. This ship
actually
has more survivability in the GURPS Space combat system than it would in
the
tactical game, I believe. In the alternate timeline that GURPS Traveller
represents, space combats are probably MUCH shorter and deadlier.
**********
I agree on this point, part of this is that the GSCS assumes rough parity
of ships.  it could do suprisingly well, we would need to run a few space
combats to see though....

thge major point of difference is missiles (and to a lesser extent) spinal
mounts. instead of being all or nothing salvos, you can get partial leakage
and ships can combine missile fire to overwhelm the defences of larger
ships.

as for spinal mounts, it did always come down to who got hit with the
spinal first in HG didn't it?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:34:32 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Patrol Cruiser

In a message dated 12/7/98 8:23:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, kurt@blazenet.net
writes:

<< I have a scan of the Fasa deckplans but have not posted it.  If permission
 is granted, I'll be glad to post them.  I have most of the old Fasa plans
 reduced and ready to scan.
 
 Kurt Feltenberger
  >>

Please....Please....PLEASE get permission and post the things...I love to
collect deck plans!  As an aside; if you do get permission to do this; can you
make some paper copies for me (either 15 or 25 mm), and snail mail them to me?
I will, of course pay you for your time and expenses....

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:32:10 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS announces US Distribution Deal with SJG

Andy asked me to distribute the following statement on behalf of BITS. I
think that it will make some of you happy:

- -----

BITS is proud to announce an alliance with Steve Jackson Games which will
allow Traveller fans in the US (and elsewhere around the globe) to obtain
BITS products by mail order. SJG have ordered their first stocks of the 101
book series, specifically:

* 101 Lifeforms
* 101 Travellers
* 101 Rendezvous
* 101 Cargos
* 101 Plots
* 101 Governments
* 101 Religions

A summary of all these products can be found on the BITS web pages at
http://www.bits.org.uk. GURPS fans will be glad to know that these
supplements are
all suitable for use with GURPS Traveller.

The shipment should be with SJG in a couple of weeks, but I am led to
believe that SJG should be willing to take advance orders.

- -----
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

Dom (BITS Webmaster)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 11:20:17 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1250

>>>>
    I'd also seriously consider running strings of RPVs from the
refinery to the starport (What is there for a crew to do except
at the ends of a run?). Terrestrial systems prefer pipelines for
this kind of work, but I don't think a pipeline with ends in
relative motion and several AU long is going to work. I'd expect
a good TL and a severe shortage of hydrogen on the mainworld to
be prerequisites for insystem shipping of it anyway.
>>>>
If you think of "pipeline" narrowly as a cylinder of metal with stuff
going through it, then I agree that a multiple AU version with ends in
relative motion is not likely (undoable at TL8, maybe possible at
TL15).  If you think of "pipeline" in a broader sense, then a mass
driver sending continuous bucket-fulls of ice from an icy asteroid or
moon into orbit of the mainworld is not only thinkable, but doable at
TL7.  You just need a catching net at the mainworld end of the
pipeline.  It might well take a year or several for any one piece of
ice to get from outer to inner system, but with a continuous stream,
that doesn't matter.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 13:48:33 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: BTE 1: IMTU Newsletter

"Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> writes:
>I have organized my IMTU notes as a 24-pages Newsletter (fanzine?). 
>You can download it as a .PDF file from my Traveller page
>
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772

Looks great. I spotted one type: section heading "The languages of the
Federation" should have been "The Languages of the Federation"
(capitalization), but for a third language that's amazing!

Two suggestions:

1) Include page numbers in the table of contents

2) Include and hotlinks in the PDF file.

Neither of these are more than a minor quibble.

OK, one more suggestion. Send this to Pyramid, or some other magazine.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:49:29 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

In a message dated 12/7/98 10:32:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com writes:

<< as for spinal mounts, it did always come down to who got hit with the
 spinal first in HG didn't it?
  >>

HG lived and died with the critical hit table...If you took a tpe T spinal
hit, and were less then 300 ktons; you were in big trouble....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:54:56 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:32:35 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re:  GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)


>system and designed for Traveller to defend against them. This ship
actually
>has more survivability in the GURPS Space combat system than it would in
the
>tactical game, I believe. In the alternate timeline that GURPS Traveller
>represents, space combats are probably MUCH shorter and deadlier.
This is scary, since High Guard combat was already pretty deadly (one
good meson hit would disable any target...). What it may also signify
is that the balance between PA weapons and MGs is upset, if you can't
carry enough armour to defend against even a cruiser-sized PAW...
***********
well you can, but not at 6Gs when accel is based on mass and not
volume....and this gives more reason for slow  capital ship designs, as
faster light units. I admit to liking the DEs being faster than the BBs and
DNs rather than the other way round.


(Similarly, at the low end, even small ships can carry enough armour
to defend completely against standard lasers, which is a problem,
especially since G:T has no "surface hit" category.)
Anyone done any battleship designs with G:T yet?
*************
well, you can still get criticals (ignoring half of DR) and smaller ships
have more of a problem defending against missiles.  try swamping a scouts
defenses versis a merc crusier and you will see what I mean. the merc
cruiser should stop more smissles per turret than the the scot (if I have
my math correct) espicaily if the scout has one each (laser/missile/sand)
and the merc has something like 6 sand and 9 each missile/laser.

in fact I think that 8 scouts might have trouble taking the merc cruser
(assuming the merc detects them that is)
the scout could muster only 8 missile salvos each turn (vs the 15 PD
weapons of the cruiser) whiel the merc can get off 9 missile salvos (vs the
two PD weapons of the scouts)

although if the scouts had suprise (quite likely due to their stealth)....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:57:44 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

I could have probably given the ship the 18,000 DR, since there is a fair
amount of cargo space, by increasing the maneuver drive to the proper
level;
I may even go back and do that now. But the purpose of what I was doing
when
I built it was to do as close a conversion from CT as I could get.
Different
systems will require slightly different optimization. But even with 18,000
DR, the PAW spinal mount listed in GT, let alone the one this ship has,
will
tear through the armor pretty good.
*************88888
it sure would....and so would a 1200 missile salvo like this thing can
throw..I think it can saturate its own(very inpressive) point defense.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:49:05 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruisers

Sethkimmel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<< as for spinal mounts, it did always come down to who got hit with the
 spinal first in HG didn't it?
  >>

HG lived and died with the critical hit table...If you took a tpe T spinal
hit, and were less then 300 ktons; you were in big trouble....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

One of the major definitions of a Dreadnaught is the ability to take
a solid hit in the line of battle from the biggest ship the enemy has
and keep fighting. Part of that ability came from sheer size - being just
too damn *big* to go down with one shot. HG may have some holes in
the system, but the idea of being too big to kill quickly I find appealing.

Of course, either side can get lucky.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:03:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruisers

Walter Smith writes:

> One of the major definitions of a Dreadnaught is the ability to take
> a solid hit in the line of battle from the biggest ship the enemy has
> and keep fighting. Part of that ability came from sheer size - being just
> too damn *big* to go down with one shot. HG may have some holes in
> the system, but the idea of being too big to kill quickly I find appealing.

Shrug.  A high lightning cruiser has 900,000 hp.  It will take criticals from
its own spinal weaponry, but it takes around five shots to get a kill.  If you
steal a page from Vehicles and give it a very heavy frame, it climbs to
3,600,000 hp and takes 15-20 shots...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:14:58 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fusion Plus

In a message dated 12/5/98 5:37:34 PM Central Standard Time, ianw@orac.net.au
writes:

<< 
 I have put some thought into Fusion Plus, and I think I know how we can
 limit it to use as an auxilary civilian system.
  >>

Make sure you define what Fusion Plus is first. T4 got it wrong.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:13:17 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Pirates :)

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:24:24 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Pirates :)
At 04:08 PM 04/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>In the new National Geographic, there is an article on the South China Sea
>that mentions the upsurge in piracy in the area.  Good reading for those
>who still use the little bastards in their campaigns.
>
>Note:  This is not an attempt to resurrect the Piracy debate!  Just a
>pointer to a good information source.
**************
whats wrong with a little piracy between friends:)


        When we (HMCS Restigouche) came home from the Gulf, we went through
that area.  The buggers were using cigarette boats with 20mm cannon on them
to slow an intended target and biz copters to rappel commando squads onto
the deck.  The commando squads could be expected to be equiped with Uzi's
or
H&K's and *cutlasses*.   Apparently the month before we went through, some
Greek captain had tried to resist and they'd taken a piece out of him with
one.
        We closed up 2nd degree of readiness for the transit through the
area, and put flood-lights to illuminate the 3."75's and the Harpoon boxes,
and the Maple Leaf on the stack ("No, this is NOT a merchant.  Go Away.").
I remember the Combat Officer briefing the CO that if we were attacked,
he'd
bring the "A" system (3"75's) online...  he didn't expect to hit them -
that's be the waist 30mm & .50cal's - but he figured one two-barrel
five-shot volley at night (MUZZLE FLASH) would convinced them to annoy
someone else. =)
******************
a ship of the Yukon Space Navy going home after deplyment with the imperial
navy.  the fastest route home is thru the pirate infested systems coreward
of New New Zeland?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:48:59 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie

Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com> wrote:
>To be
>on the safe side, I'll send along high tech artifacts with each post
>as a distraction and mood enhancer.  Does she enjoy
>reverse-engineering anti-matter weapons?

You could send her one of Bank's _Lazy Guns_, from _Against a Dark
Background_. ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you caninvent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:06:39 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

Tommy grav writes
>The reason for calling them gas giants are based on their masses. The *current*
>models state that anything under 80 jupiter masses is a gas giant while objects
>over 80 j.masses up to 0.08 solar masses are brown dwarfs. From there up you
>have stars.  

Actually, 80 jupiter masses is 0.08 solar masses (1 jupiter mass = 1/1000 of
a solar mass, near enough.) The argument about the line between brown dwarfs
and gas giants is quasi-religous, but most people would place it down around
10 or 20 jupiter masses. 

>I think that a giant planet wandering in from outsystem will clean up almost
>everything from its startingpoint in to where it is. A wandering is a slow
>process that takes millions of years. (I might even be that all giants will
>wander in, just that it hasn't happened in the Sol system yet :-)
The wandering inward is driven by the protoplanetary accretion disk - which
Sol no longer has - or by collisions with other equally-massive gas giants
(which Sol also no longer has.) In the process it doesn't necessarily sweep
up the whole protoplanetary disk, although it probably does collect all
the bigger chunks and leaves little room for other planets.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:12:46 -0500
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Alternate Universe Rational

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
"there are airless, waterless planets with _billions_ of people on the 
starmaps."

This has always been a problem for me, and is one of the primary
reasons that I want to game in an alternate Traveller Universe.
The material on the net is going a long way to building MTU.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 13:26:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Fusion Plus

Aha! Perhaps you would like to define it, then, Marc? I assume it will
be an important technology in T5, or are we just going to downsize
fusion reactors again? It fills an important gap in power souce
technology, between fuel cells (which are relatively inefficient, and
consume a lot of fuel) and fusion plants (which are much more efficient,
and consume little fuel, but have a rather large minimum size).

OTOH, postulating better fuel cells and smaller fusion plants will fill
that gap, as well...

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 12/5/98 5:37:34 PM Central Standard Time, ianw@orac.net.au
> writes:
> 
> <<
>  I have put some thought into Fusion Plus, and I think I know how we can
>  limit it to use as an auxilary civilian system.
>   >>
> 
> Make sure you define what Fusion Plus is first. T4 got it wrong.
> 
> Marc

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1253
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
From: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller-digest V1998 #1254
Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest      Monday, December 7 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1254



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Weather In Space, Part 2
It _really_ IS Yanks in Space ...;-)
Ship construction process (was re: Courier Networks)
Fusion Plus Discussion
Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
Re: Fusion Plus
Re: BITS announces US Distribution Deal with SJG
Re: Two parsec jump
Re: Fusion Plus
Re: Courier networks
Re: BITS/SJG alliance and Ditzie
Re: Pirates and Ditzie
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Testing strategy of FS' new Combat Helicopter
Re: PE questions
Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
Re: Fusion Plus
Re: Fusion Plus
Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:42:36 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Weather In Space, Part 2

Here's an addition to Weather In Space effect. The excerpts are
from an article by ABC News.



WIRE:Dec. 7, 3:07 p.m. ET

Scientists: Radiation belts pose
greater risks than previously thought 

AP News Service


SAN FRANCISCO (AP) _ The radiation belts surrounding Earth can
become extremely powerful in a matter of seconds, posing far  greater
risks to spacewalking astronauts and communication  satellites than
previously believed, scientists said Monday.
<snip>
New observations by an array of satellites show changes in the
planet's own magnetic field can accelerate electrons in the belts  to
nearly the speed of light, transforming them into what some
researchers describe as ``killer electrons.''  
<snip>
Under such intense conditions, the charged particles can pierce  a
sheet of aluminum a half-inch thick. That could result in a
catastrophic accumulation of charged particles in the sensitive
electronics of hundreds of orbiting satellite, and perhaps endanger
astronauts. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 13:42:05 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: It _really_ IS Yanks in Space ...;-)

See:

http://www.usmint.gov/dollarcoin/122.cfm

(one of the proposed designs for the reverse of the new dollar coin...)

Sure looks like the Imperial Sunburst back there...;-P

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 13:43:46 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Ship construction process (was re: Courier Networks)

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Courier Networks
...
>construction process. If your production run is enough X-Boats
>to keep the Imperium in contact with itself, should your discount
>be bigger? Say, big enough to make one model (even if it is often
>inefficient due to shorter jumps than it can do) cheaper than
>three or four variant models?

  That could sharply affect how everything is built in the Imperium -
no more 45 different kinds of J-2 trader when one gets a higher discount;
depending on how such a discount is awarded you might see one design for
each niche per sector or two. That assumes that individual shipyards must
achieve very high construction totals.

  OTOH, where a run of 20 Nemesis Intruders might be built at one site
to maximize the savings (19x0.8 +1x1.0; vs 20x 1.0 if built at 20 systems)
the truly vast runs could have runs of dozens (!+) per decade in one or two
yards per sector. OC, the 10% discount on standard designs (even if the yard
in question has never built one?) may already represent the results of this.

  It's been awhile since I've seen lots of detailed ship financials from
out of the THUDDD process, but a ship that gets the 20% (vs 0%) discount
is going to be decisively cheaper to operate in the same way that a 30%
or 40% discount will pound the stuffing out of a mere 20% discounted hull.

  OC, a TU with only 30 or 40 standard designs would make things a lot
easier for ship designers, esp. those using T4 or MT. Wait, B:2! - it's
already happened! :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:54:21 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Fusion Plus Discussion

In a message dated 12/7/98 2:35:07 PM Central Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< Perhaps you would like to define it, then, Marc? >>

The original statement went something like this... 

(based on the original CT ship design specs, which said that the minimum size
for a ship (as opposed to a small craft) was 100 tons). CT has small craft
down to a 10 ton fighter. 

Prior to M:0, there is a minimum size required for a fusion power plant.
Efficient small craft powered by fusion were not possible; neither were small
vehicles powered by fusion.

Fusion Plus cracked that limit and made it possible to produce fusion power
plants which had the same efficiency as larger plants, but were smaller. 

Fusion Plus produces no difference in power output for starships. It just
makes it possible to make smaller Fusion Power Plants with a corresponding
mass /volume to output ration.

Before Fusion Plus, you could not make Chrysler Lebarons with fusion power
under the hood. After FP, you could.

The small craft of the First Imperium and of the Interstellar Wars were bigger
than thos of the Third Imperium because the 3I small craft (including
fighters) could carry smaller fusion power plants. 

Before M:0, no one had Fusion Plus. In the Imperium's early years, they
maintained it as a monopoly.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:16:28 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

>if I'd cut it down to 2 Gs it would have had about 33,000 DR (only DR 4,000 on
>the turrets; I placed the missile bays in internal mounts rather as external
>turrets, so they don't add any surface area).  It also made use of my
>generalized spinal mounts, with a rating-67 mount doing 6d*20,000.

Which again seems to imply that offense is ahead of defence - the armour
is essentially worthless against the spinal mount.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:22:26 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fusion Plus

> OTOH, postulating better fuel cells and smaller fusion plants will fill
> that gap, as well...

I noticed this quite keenly when designing humanoid robots w/ Vampire
Fleets/FFS1.  In particular, i was doing an AB-101 (w/ homebrew psuedobio
rules) and didn't like fuel cells one bit.  They're described in Book 8 as
using hydrogen/oxygen fuel cells w/ a closed hydrogen, open oxygen system and
that if they were designed for vacuum, then fuel consumption was 9 times
quicker.  So what I did was rule that FFS fuel cells are the closed oxygen
systems and so allow that hideously high fuel consumption to be divided by 9
for my AB-101 w/ an open oxygen system.  I was also thinking that FFS legal
fuel cells are fine for TL8 through maybe 11, but at 12 they should maybe use
LHyd instead of the HGHCD (which seems to be what all book 8 fuel cells use). 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:33:25 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: BITS announces US Distribution Deal with SJG

SD Mooney wrote:

> BITS is proud to announce an alliance with Steve Jackson Games which will
> allow Traveller fans in the US (and elsewhere around the globe) to obtain
> BITS products by mail order. SJG have ordered their first stocks of the 101
> book series, specifically:
>
> * 101 Lifeforms
> * 101 Travellers
> * 101 Rendezvous
> * 101 Cargos
> * 101 Plots
> * 101 Governments
> * 101 Religions

Woo hoo!  Thats great!  Now the rest of the world can read about
all those nifty religions!  And I can order them one at a time very easily,
as my game-budget allows.  :-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:22:10 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump

> Kev*E*n, please.  My parents were *quite* specific about it.

Sorry.  Think i've done that before too...  Think it was an identicle
response... ; )

> > You've seen MTUs wilderness refueling rules, haven't you?  Almost entirely
> > based off Supp 5 and TNE.  Try http://members.aol.com/travelrtne/main.htm
> 
> I don't have TNE either.  And besides, that's YTU, not anything official,
> right?

Right.  It is more Supp 5 than TNE (which is primarily tasks difficulties,
etc).   The effects are mostly from supp 5.  

> Under CT/HG, hulls are assumed to be rigid enough to handle an atmospheric
> flight unless they're nonstreamlined.  Under CT/HG, even semistreamlined
hulls
> can skim.  AHL's are considered semistreamlined.  So what's the problem?

It was supposed to be semistreamlined w/ an asterisk, as in it's not designed
to do the skimming but is capable of doing it in emergencies.  The description
in Supp5 says the AHLs were constructed using an open-frame system.  It
would've been more appropriately described as USL w/ an asterisk IMO.  ; )

> That's because the hangers are a shirtsleeve environment so you can do
> maintanance on the small craft during jump.  Dunno bout *you*, comrade, but
> *I* ain't getting out on the hull during a jump to work on something.

Hangers and grapples are different things, entirely.  Think of grapples more
as a jet's hardpoint mouting for a missle.  SL grapples would be a groove
shaped out of the way of the main airflow, AF might be perfectly shaped and
fitted, maybe even a door of some kind... Any external maintenance that needs
to be done will be done EVA.

Think the fuel deal was covered by Shadow/Leonard Erickson.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 08:30:20
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fusion Plus

>From: CardSharks@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Fusion Plus
>
>In a message dated 12/5/98 5:37:34 PM Central Standard Time, ianw@orac.net.au
>writes:
>
><< 
> I have put some thought into Fusion Plus, and I think I know how we can
> limit it to use as an auxilary civilian system.
>  >>
>
>Make sure you define what Fusion Plus is first. T4 got it wrong.
>

Table 219 of FFS2 of Fusion Plus currently defines it ... unless of course
you can tell us exactly what T4 got wrong about it ... 

Defining features include high surface area requirement, moderate fuel
consumption, very high power density (double that of a comparable Fusion
unit), very low fixed costs (about KCr 2-3 per megawatt at Tl10-12,
compared to about KCr 100 per megawatt for TL9-12 fusion) and lack of scale
efficiencies.

Now, there are in fact good reasons for keeping Fusion Plus mostly as
written - all those nice M0 fighters in the THUDDD heavy fighter
competition, for a start.

However, as it stands, I believe it is too dominant a technology.

My tweaks were a way of keeping it as a civilian technology, and as one
more edge when you are fighting completely TL11 and down foes at TL12
(although you dont really need one, what with nuke dampers, meson screens
and the extra gee of inertial compensation).

Ian Whitchurch

PS When you are correcting things T4 got wrong, can we please have a
minimum length on Meson Guns, dropping as TL goes up ? TL11 Meson Artillery
really does bad things to the background, IMO.
------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:22:23 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Courier networks

> >Canon says that the X-boats are the "fastest available means?"  I don't see
> >anything that says that.
> 
> "...express boat links have been established to insure the rapid
transmission
> of messages (governmental, commercial, and private) with a maximum of
> efficiency."

I still don't see "fastest available means."  I see "maximum of efficiency"
but that's in the players section and smacks of propganda/spin-control.

> >Just that it's "designed to make optimum use of jump technology" (which
> >isn't necessarily false).
> 
> Yes it is. It is easy to design an Jump-4 X-boat system that is more
> efficient than the one supposedly in use in the OTU. Introducing jump-5
> and jump-6 links in selected places can improve things even more.

Of course.  The Xboat system may have well started out as optimized.
Waystations and capitals get moved, the routes are slower to change due to
political squabbles, corruption, etc etc.  The Xboats are certainly capable of
being optimized for their design (reorganizing the randomly generated routes
is what I think you want.  Well actually the Regency's Xweb is just what you
want, isn't it?  That's what exists IMTU <g>  I'd prefer to rationalize the
dice if i ever ran a pre-Rebellion campaign...).  Look at the reasons given
for the slower speeds... "trade routes do not follow straight lines and not
all jumps are made at jump-4."  MT IE pg 24.   It's not preposterous to assume
that the xboat network has been slowly degenerating to the situation c1100
where it is quite inefficient according to its capabilities.

You know, Hans, I think RSB might be interpreted as validating your theory,
too (excepting J5 and J6 links on the Xboat network).  It says (pg 21) there
were parallel J6 routes for the "noble elite."

> >In the ref's section for the MT Imperial Encyclopedia, it would seem your
> >theory on the bureaucracy using the naval courier "network" might be
correct,
> >Hans.  I don't if it's been pointed out or not, as I haven't followed this
> >thread closely but: "Knowing vital facts before they become general
knowledge
> >is essential to a well-run bureaucracy."  pg 49. Course maybe I'm being too
> >literal? ; )
> 
> No, you just accept the concept that the Emperor would be able to repress
> private high-jump courier networks (by 'private' I mean corporate) and be
> able to prevent people from leaking privviledged information. No doubt the
> Emperor could occasionally "Knowing vital facts before they become general
> knowledge" (though whether the benefit would outweigh the problems caused
> by the slower general communications is highly doubtful), but the amount of
> control over private institutions that that implies is staggering.

Not repress it but be able to make any private (also meaning corporate) body
fear his retaliation (and their dissolution as an entity) if they should
disregard his mandates, much less explicitly disobey him.

> >It also depends on the definition of "bureaucracy" and even the
> >casing of such, no?
> >
> >IMTU, the Emperor had good reason to be wary of an increasingly corrupt
> >bureaucracy.
> 
> But the lines you quote above imply that the Imperial Bureaucracy IS the
> recipients of that extra fast information, no?

That's why I asked if I was being too literal.  ; )  And later said the
definition and casing of "bureacucracy" might well be important.  The
description of the naval courier in Supp 9 would indicate its only used for
fleet actions, keeping in touch w/ fleet elements, and seemingly only over a
subsector level (that's where the fleet is, after all).

> >...Above this, J5 & J6 was restricted and required heavy permits (and not
> >allowed for even a sector wide service, which could/would blatantly reveal
> >the control system that was the Express-boat network), more so than lower
> >jump drives.
> 
> And the restrictions required to ensure that those regulations wasn't
> subverted didn't reveal it just as blatantly? Riiiiight!

If the Imperium forces private (especially corporate) parties to register
their ships and somewhat regulates matters todo w/ ship ownership and
construction, it would be fairly easy to screen out "non approved" applicants
for a significant number of J6 ships or to put on such a tax to make it
unwanted ("what?  'bulk rate, premium jump drive' tax?").  The megacorps would
be allowed their J6 couriers as long as they don't burst the bubble of the
Xboat network to the Great Unwashed.  A single (even a couple) J6 ships fine.
Just not setting up a pony express type system.  They're expensive enough to
be noticed and rare enough for covert investigations (and private
"reprimands") to be conducted by Imperial Intelligence.

> >The Emperor's share (and control) in the megacorps ensured they didn't
> >violate this,either.
> 
> None of the Emperor's shares in the megacorps would give him control of
> them.

Right.  We've been over that too.  I only meant that he does have a say in
what they can and can't do, overall, both as share holder and as Emperor of
the Third Imperium.  A courier network of J6 ships has got to cost alot and be
noticible.  If the Emperor didn't want them to have them, they wouldn't have
them.  As long as they don't burst the bubble and expose the Xboat control
system, they're allowed to keep them.

> >They want a private system like the Imperiallines operation, that won't
> >spill the beans and would remain under wraps, fine, as long as they keep
> >it quiet (and 'secret' ala Imperiallines) and, of course, the possible
> >presence of an INI "representative"/watchdog/monitor.  : ) Any that violate
> >the Emperor's wishes might find themselves going the way of the Zhunastu
> >Corp.  ; )
> >
> >Is there anything in canon to violate any of that?
> 
> Only the notion that the advance news of the Emperor's assasination somehow
> got to Norris alone. The setup you mention for YTU (which, incidentally, is

Don't make me quote that TNS entry again, Hans.  It's quite apparent (though
never explicit) that Norris did *not* alone get the information on the
assassination.  That high level meeting was composed of all the high-ups in
the SM/Domain of Deneb and it was decided in that meeting that Norris would
pretend to get it alone.  Ya think?

> pretty much how things work IMTU except that I don't see the need for the
> secrecy) would have several hundred people recieve the advance notice*. You
> may be ready to believe that several hundred people with as many different
> agendas can keep such a secret. I don't.

Well the secrecy is just that their J6 courier networks exist.  Given the ways
things work, I don't imagine the megacorps need or want an Xboat type system
(and don't think you're proposing one), but their "network" is rather more
individual courier ("get this to the Spinward Marches regional manager, Eneri,
and pronto!") oriented than auto transmit to every megacorp holding/pony-
express type deal.  For every little podunc megacorp outpost and station, the
memos travelling via xboat or slow courier should be fine.

> *Heads of Imperial Bureaucracy on all worlds, megacorporate sector managers,
> fleet admirals plus anyone they felt the need to consult.

Just what is the "Imperial Bureaucracy" in YTU?  How is that defined?  Are we
talking low level number crunchers and analysts?  Even military could be
lumped into that by some.   I'm thinking sector and subsector capital nobility
(and their aides).  I have no objection to that very limited body being part
of a J6 network, but anything lower doesn't need (much less rate) more than
the Xboat system.  Why would Eneri the Bureaucrat need or want more than the
Xboat can provide?  And why would the Emperor or the Emperors men not just
tell Eneri to shut his hole and crunch his numbers?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 08:35:16
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: BITS/SJG alliance and Ditzie

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: BITS announces US Distribution Deal with SJG
>
>BITS is proud to announce an alliance with Steve Jackson Games which will
>allow Traveller fans in the US (and elsewhere around the globe) to obtain
>BITS products by mail order. SJG have ordered their first stocks of the 101
>book series, specifically:
>

*clapping and cheering*


>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
>
>Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>To be
>>on the safe side, I'll send along high tech artifacts with each post
>>as a distraction and mood enhancer.  Does she enjoy
>>reverse-engineering anti-matter weapons?
>
>You could send her one of Bank's _Lazy Guns_, from _Against a Dark
>Background_. ;-)
>

Look, sending Ditzie stuff that isnt FFS2-compliant is liable to make her
upset.

A box full of those nice Solomani Rocket-Propelled Collapsing Nuclear
Warhead grenades, on the other hand ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 08:41:55
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Pirates and Ditzie

>From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Transporting Fuel
>
>I can't see this as the only valuable thing on the fuel shuttle will be 
>the Thruster Plates and your not going to get away with that unless you 
>rip it out (is there a market for slighly used T-plates). Fuel shuttles 
>will probably be too large to "hangar".
>
> I did a fuel shuttle design some time ago (now lost i as HD crash :( ). 
>IIRC it was 2000 dt and 90+ % of the volume was made out of hydrogen and 
>it cost very little (and did not have 20 airlocks). If I were a pirate I 
>wouldn't spend my time searching for fuel shuttles (it's another matter 
>if you're desperate for jump fuel).

Well, under FFS2 a set of thruster plates is worth, at minimum, MCr 2.5.
Assuming you can get 40% of value (probable, given that they are pretty
useful and ubiquitous), then thats a megacredit of revenue.

This sort of 'chicken stealing' may not make you rich, but the idea is a
stream of small paydays keeps your ship running until the chance for the
big payday comes along.

On the other hand, hanging out near mainworlds will give you a lot more
opportunities, but also be much, much, much more dangerous.

>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
>
>Exactly how would one know, in advance, whether she's had her meds or
>not?  I mean, she reacted rather kindly to her admirer (in another
>thread), but what's to say that that reaction was random?  Perhaps I
>have just not studied her mania long enough to see a pattern.  To be
>on the safe side, I'll send along high tech artifacts with each post
>as a distraction and mood enhancer.  Does she enjoy
>reverse-engineering anti-matter weapons?

Does a pope shit in the woods ? I think there are few things Ditzie would
enjoy more ... but make sure they are reasonably FFS2 compliant.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:01:45 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

At 23:34 6/12/98 -0500, Thad Coons wrote:

>   You do have a point about more maneuverable navies running
>circles around these lumbering hulks while they're parked at the
>gas station.  This is one reason the SFN is ineffective against
>piracy, one of the reasons about a third of it always stays at
>home, and one of the many reasons the SF hasn't expanded much
>before now. As with many other things in the SF, everyone knows
>it's a problem but they can't agree on a fix.

I can see it now - the SF builts some Battlecruisers to solve the problem,
and naturally gives them to experienced senior Captains who are used to
lots of armour. The first time they get into a fight they forget they're in
an eggshell and get badly shot up. Net result - the SF Navy's senior
officers' beleif in heavy armour is seen to be justified and the problem
just gets worse.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:31:50 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

At 11:08 7/12/98 -0500, Walter Smith wrote:

>Since I can't see someone maneuvering a shuttle while it's in an
>external cradle, it may be that this crisis involves the shuttle ripping
>free of it's cradle and the pilot on board struggling to gain control and
>take up formation with the cruiser. They'll have to quickly jury-rig
>a replacement carry sling once they're out of the GG atmosphere
>if they want to bring the saved fuel shuttle with them.

Personnaly unless the enemy is in gunnery range (in which case you're
insane, anyway) I'd release the shuttles before entering the GG's
atmosphere and pick them up on the other side.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:22:15 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

> My guess is, you could refuel a squadron of dreadnaughts every day for a
> thousand years and not make a noticeable dent.

Some planets in Traveller (Vland for ex) have been using jump drives for over
11,000 years.  Would that be enough for a noticible dent to the hydrosphere?
Lhyd is also used in grav vehicles, planetary power grids, robots, etc as well
as starship and military uses.  Thanks alot.  Quite informative.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 08:50:29
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Testing strategy of FS' new Combat Helicopter

>From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
>
>In message <3.0.5.16.19981206221211.4ff78280@mail.orac.net.au>, Ian or
>Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> writes
>>#2, she works in Famile Spofulam's High Energy Solutions division, and is
>>currently working on a Plasma Chain Gun, to go in the chin turret of the
>>new TL12 Combat Helicopter. The helicopter's main gun is a 100 MJ plasma
>>gun, that should be capable of penetrating 40 cm of superdense.
>
>How fast does the helo fly backwards when when the main gun fires?

Weeeee arent absolutely-wabsolutely sure yet.

Weee are goanna goanna goanna breadboard a model-wodel, then wewewewe are
goanna buildie-wuildie a test model, then then then we're goanna-wonna
write up the testing-westing weports, then we're goanna-wonna sell a batch
of half a dozen to some groooooound-pounders with incompetant-wompetant
laaaaaaawyers, an an an then we seeeee how well they urkie-workie ...

*manic giggling*

Ditzie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:41:08 +0000
From: Jonathan Draper <jdraper@clara.net>
Subject: Re: PE questions

Andrew,

thanks again for your PE spreadsheet. I am just about to download 
the latest version from BITS. I will let you have my comments when
I have seen it.

I have just checked my e-mail log and it appears that I failed to
send my comments on the first version. Did you receive them? If not
I will update them and resend them.

I would be interested in taking part in your PE campaign.

All the best,

Jon
- -- 
Jonathan Draper                       e-mail : jdraper@clara.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:51:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

> Which again seems to imply that offense is ahead of defence - the armour
> is essentially worthless against the spinal mount.

Essentially true.  Was pretty much true in high guard as well, though. 
However, bear in mind that the Azhanti High Lightning, due to being something
like 50% fuel tankage by volume, is pretty much guaranteed to be lightly
armored -- rip out the fuel tankage to make a 30 kTd battle rider (and
temporarily ignore hardpoint limits) and DR climbs to about 60,000.  Drop down
to 1 G and DR is 150,000, which _is_ enough to be relevant against spinal
mounts.  Allow even a little bit of directional armor and we can get something
like 250,000 from the front, 125,000 from other sides.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:57:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Fusion Plus

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > OTOH, postulating better fuel cells and smaller fusion plants will fill
> > that gap, as well...
> 
> I noticed this quite keenly when designing humanoid robots w/ Vampire
> Fleets/FFS1. 

Not to mention some of the fuel cells being worked on for
today...they're air-breathers, using methanol fuel, BUT, they're cool
and can be made very small. I read about them in Popular Science (it was
a 1998 or 97 issue) they're being considered for use in things like
laptops and cameras, that sort of thing.



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:45:21 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fusion Plus

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Fusion Plus
...
>OTOH, postulating better fuel cells and smaller fusion plants will fill
>that gap, as well...

  At TL 9 fusion is KCr 200, 4000 kg, and produces 2 MW per m^3.
  An equivalent fuel cell is KCr 20, <1650 kg, and >0.9 MW.*

  Fusion scales down poorly past one cubic meter, but a fuel cell is OK to 40
liters/55 kg, and can go further.
  *extrapolations from 100-liter unit per B:8 (2/.165/.09).

  Fuel cells only seem thirsty if you have to carry the oxygen as well.
Actually, if you crack the water again afterwards they might work as
"batteries" for combat under CT, which actual storage cells are too 
expensive to do under those design rules.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:22:44 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: PLUG FOR BITS Re: Space Religeon (long)

At 18:11 04.12.98 +0000, you wrote:
>steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>
>>dom> Who are looking to establish an Inquistion to deal with the various
canon
>>> heretics who violate the true and blessed M0 way ;-)
>>
>>Thankfully, the warrior-monk Ricardos, with the support of the Imperial
>>Church of Sylea, have already devised a cunning plan to deal with the
>>upstart "Restorers," because they foresaw that such an event would come
>>
>>- - Brother Claw, please bring me the  . . . Cunning Plan.
>>
>>- - But Bishop Fop, I thought you had the  . . . Cunning Plan.
>
>Not....THE BISHOP?!
After which follows a lot of running around and drivind and general
detective-like activities ;-)
....Yep, those were the guys...
Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1254
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, December 7 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 1255



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Transporting Fuel In-System
Ditzie's favouite fast food joint
Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re : Fusion Plus (longish)
Re: habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Intrasystem Hydrogen Transport
Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation
Re: Re : Fusion Plus (longish)
Re: Pirates :)
Re: Fusion Plus
Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
Re: Fusion Plus Discussion
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: Intrasystem Hydrogen Transport
Re: Transporting fuel insystem

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 12:23:38 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Transporting Fuel In-System

        Ok, so here's a TL 9 "Refinery Tanker".  Built at TL9 under CT/HG
rules.  No jump capability, and makes a 1% rate of return on investment,
hauling two loads of fuel from a GG to the starport per month.  Given that
transit time at 1G to a "near gas giant" is ~5d, that allows a day on each
end of the voyage to scoop or unload and one weekend a month off for the crew.
        
        Right now, MTU doesn't have anything this big in commercial
operation.  However, the Navy will be building something similar, and I
envison a smaller version (~500 dtons) of this craft being subsidized by the
planetarty government and running in 5-ship convoys from GG to main world.

        O/_____________________________________
        O\
SHIP DESIGN WORKSHEET				                1.  Date of Preparation		
				                                            2048		
2.  Ship name			        3.  Ship Type			4.  Tech Level
UN-ML Saturn			 Jovian-Class Tanker (Type RB)			 9.00 

5.  Hull	Remarks	       Tons	   MCr	    EP	     Crew	Factor
Hull	           2500		          250.00 			
Configuration	Needle/Wedge		   50.00 			1
Armor		                 -   	    -   			0
Waste Space						
	Subtotals	         -   	  300.00 			

6.  Drives	Remarks        Tons        MCr	    EP	     Crew	Factor
Jump Drive		         -   	      -   		0	0
Maneuver		      50.00 	   75.00 		1	1
Power Plant		      75.00 	  225.00  25.00 	1	1
Jump Fuel		         -   				
Power Plant Fuel	      25.00 				
Excess Fuel		   2,170.00 				
Special Tanks						
Purification		      98.78 	    0.42 			
Fuel Scoops			            5			
	Subtotals	   2,418.78 	  305.42  25.00        2.00 	

7.  Controls	Remarks	      Tons	  MCr	    EP	     Crew	Factor
Bridge		               50.00 	 12.50 		       1	
Computer	2/4	        1.00 	  2.00 	     -   	           1
	Subtotals	       51.00 	 14.50 	 -   	1	

8.  Weaponry	Remarks	      Tons	  MCr	    EP	      Crew	Factor
Turret Sand	3w, 1t, 1b	1.00 	  1.50 		       1	 3.00 
Turret Missiles	12W, 4t, 1b     4.00 	  9.00 	     -   	1	 4.00 
Barbette Particle						
	Subtotals	        5.00 	 10.50 	     -   	2	

9.  Screens	Remarks	      Tons	  MCr	    EP	      Crew	Factor
Meson Screen		        -   	 -   	 -   	0	0
Nuclear Damper		        -   	 -   	 -   	0	0
Force Field		        -   	 -   		0	0
Deflector Screen					0	
	Subtotals	 -   	 -   	 -   	0	

10.  Facilities	              Tons	  MCr		      Crew	
Small Craft Hangars	         -   			
Big Craft Hangars		 -   			
Launch Facilities						
Launch Tubes			 -   	   0	
Vehicles						
	Subtotals	         -   	   -   		      0	

Crew Lists		Officers	Crew			
Command Section		1	0			
Engineering		1	1			
Gunnery		1	1			
Flight Section						
Ship's Troops						
Service Crew						
Passengers						
	Subtotals	3	2			

11.  Quarters		         Tons	   MCr		      Crew	
Single Staterooms	 3 	 12.00 	   1.50 		3	
Double Staterooms	 1 	 4.00 	   0.50 		2	
Low Berths		 -   	 -   		                0	
Emergency Low		 -   	 -   		                0	
	Subtotals	         16.00 	   2.00 		5	

12.  Cargo	Remarks	Tons				
Cargo	Potential : 3.2 tons					
Mail						
Magazine	60 Missiles	 6.00 				
		 6.00 				

13.  Totals	Remarks	    Tons    MCr     EP      Crew	
Hull		            0.00   300.00 		0	
Drives		         2418.78   305.42  25.00 	2	
Controls		   51.01    14.50   -   	1	
Weapons		            5.00    10.50   -   	2	
Screens		            0.00     -      -   	0	
Facilities		    0.00     -   		0	
Quarters		    16.00    2.00 			
Cargo		             6.00				
	Subtotals	  2496.78  632.42  25.0	        5	
Architect's Fees		     6.32			
Discounts			  -127.75			Agility
Totals		          2496.78  510.99  25.0	        5	1.0

        O/_____________________________________
        O\
ECONOMICS INFO
	Cargo			
		      PPT Breakpoint	    401.84	Cr per ton

	Revenue 	Expected PPT	    500.00	Cr/ Ton
		              Monthly	426,000.00	Cr
		              Yearly  5,112,000.00	Cr

	Return on Investment			
		        Annual	       1%	

DISCUSSION

        So, selling refined fuel at a starport for a modest 20% markup
returns 1%.  The FreeTrader, Sub Liner, Destroyer, whatever docks along side
and transfers fuel.

        If we crank the TL up to 15, reducing size and cost of powerplant,
we get a 3% rate of return if we sell it ourselves, or we can split the
revenue with the port and each make 1.5% just so we can have convience of
dumping the load as soon as we get to the port.   We also increase our
shipable load to 2290dtons, or about  45 refuels for a sub-merchant.

        I can see the Port Authority being willing to have one of these
under its auspices instead of a private concern.  With the missile racks, no
corsair is going to want to pick a fight with it; he's facing a potential
critical hit every round, and the target doesn't loose anything simply by
dumping its load and turning around for the GG again.  Not worth the
aggrivation to the pirate.

        However, even at TL 9, it is economically feasible, as far as I can
see.  
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 23:34:23 -0000
From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Ditzie's favouite fast food joint

Having received my copy of Behind the Claw today my first thought on reading
about Astroburgers is what is the FS connection - Personally I can see FS
providing the weaponry used by the new-market team or alternatively Ditzie
being the first customer at the Zyra branch.....

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:37:28 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

>> Which again seems to imply that offense is ahead of defence - the armour
>> is essentially worthless against the spinal mount.
>Essentially true.  Was pretty much true in high guard as well, though. 

Not really in High Guard; spacecraft (even cruisers, since High Guard  
armour scaling was messed up) could carry enough armour to protect against
everything but surface hits from spinal PAWs, which would slowly whittle down
the factor of the opponent's spinal weapon. To get criticals and quick kills
you had to go for meson weapons. 

>1 G and DR is 150,000, which _is_ enough to be relevant against spinal
>mounts.  Allow even a little bit of directional armor and we can get something
>like 250,000 from the front, 125,000 from other sides.
Directional armour shouldn't really be allowed for spacecraft (it's not 
like they can really spend every moment facing the front towards the
enemy...) The fact that even a 2G pig like the AHL can't carry enough armour
to protect itself against its spinal implies that 5-6G cruisers are in
serious trouble against their own spinal mounts...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:02:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

> Directional armour shouldn't really be allowed for spacecraft (it's not 
> like they can really spend every moment facing the front towards the
> enemy...) The fact that even a 2G pig like the AHL can't carry enough
> armour to protect itself against its spinal implies that 5-6G cruisers are
> in serious trouble against their own spinal mounts...

Hm...I chopped together some battle riders to see how this actually worked.  On
checking, I agree that there's some problems.  Most notably, it's much easier
to give ships meson screens than armor ;)  For a 5,000 ton BR (about the
minimum viable size for the basic spinal mount in GT) reasonable immunity to
bay-mounted PAWs (about DR 40k for TL 11+ PAWs, which do 6d*18,000) is 88 kT
and about 1 GCr.  Comparable resistance to meson guns is 1/80 the weight and
half the price...

A 2G, 5 kT BR is reasonably immune to bay-mounted weapons of all types; spinal
mounts will gut it.

Assuming you think this is a problem, best solution would probably be reducing
the penetration of large energy weapons (not damage..just penetration), since
the source of the problem is that if you take a 1,000x larger vehicle, it will
have 10x the armor and 30x the damage (and 100x the hp).  As I recall FF&S also
used penetration proportional to the square root of energy, so it might have
the same problem (or not...I could never figure out the logic behind FF&S
computations for weapon weights).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:51:05 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> 
> Do recall that a cubic meter of water weighs a ton. That means that for
> every meter of depth, you have another *ton* of pressure on every
> square meter of hull. 
> 
> Then consider that submarines can be detected *visually* in as much as
> 30 meters of water (maybe more). I find it highly unlikely that your
> ship is braced for 30 tons per square meter *inward* pressure. 
> 
> Among other things, remember that airlocks open *in* on spacecraft,
> because that way the air pressure inside holds them closed. Submerge,
> and the outside pressure is higher, and only the "latch" is resisting
> all that pressure!
> 
> Iris hatches aren't going to handle that sort of pressure well. And the
> only other kind of pressure hatch that *doesn't* suffer from the "opens
> in/out" problem is a "rolling block" type seal as seen on Cardassian
> airlocks on Deep Space 9. It's a nice design for hatches that you need
> to be *strong*, and to open regardless of pressure differential. But
> it's not suited to the outer hull. 
> 

This is a problem for SDBs, especially.  It's canon that some of them spend
a lot of time lurking in oceans.  

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:29:24 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Fusion Plus (longish)

The subject of Fusion Plus raises its ugly head again....

*Fuel cells are actually fairly close to the mark in FF&S2 (at least the
near tech ones) :

Potential overall efficiencies from 45 to 85 percent.
Fuel cells are the most efficient (chemical) power plant available.

RW TL 6 cell - hydrogen / oxygen, 33Wh/kg (0.12MJ/kg), eta 58%
eta - overall efficiency (e.g. Apollo 13)

Cells capable of burning complex hydrocarbons eg. gasoline TL 9+
(necessary catalysts not yet available).

Methanol burning cells at TL 8. Fuel consumption 2.3 X HGHCD (energy
content gasoline 36MJ/L ; methanol 15.6).

A slightly modified table follows (as per FF&S2, table 222) :-

TL Power Density Price Min Size Fuel Rate (m3/MW/h) ; eta
6    0.1      1   0.02   0.01    7.4 LH2, 3.6 LOX ;  0.58
7    0.4      1   0.02   0.003   6.1 LH2, 3.05 LOX ; 0.7
8    0.75     1   0.02   0.003   5.7, 2.85 ; 0.75
                                 Methanol 0.6 ; eta 0.38
9    1.0      1   0.02   0.003   5, 2.5 ; 0.85
                                 0.2  for HGHCD ; 0.5
14   1.5      1   0.02   0.003   0.13 for HGHCD ; 0.66
16   1.75     1   0.02   0.003   0.11 for HGHCD ; 0.9

Unitage for values not specified above :-
Power MW/m3 ; Density (tons/m3) ; Price MCr/m3 ; Min size m3

Aside :-
One could substitute LHCryo fuel (11.1 / 9.15 /  8.55 / 7.5) for
LH2/LOX separately.
Density of LOX is 1.15g/cc, 16.43 X LH2.

This redresses the fuel consumption issue somewhat.
A MW-hour is a heck of a lot of energy though.

*Fusion Plus was intended to be 'cold fusion'. This is explicitly
mentioned in the 'Central Supply Catalog'.
I regard F. Plus as a muon-catalysed fusion reactor which bridges the
fuel cell - 'hot fusion' gap.
The energy required to generate muons accounts for its dreadful fuel
consumption.

(Remember that nuclear reactions are at least a million times more
energetic than electronic (chemical) ones, per mass of fuel).

*Hot fusion reactors should be both more energy and mass dense than
quoted in FF&S (if current RW research is close to the mark). One could
explain canon volume figures by the need for shielding from all the
neutrons and X-rays produced. Masses may be a little low,
unless a large void fraction is assumed.

The minimum size restriction should stay as is.
The smallest TL 15 plant is 100L and produces 600kW power - which is
equivalent to running an MBT or a locomotive with an engine which could
fit easily into a Suzuki Swift or similar little car.

*Apologies to Ian and Ditzie :-
I know you're both big fans of batteries (being very useful things for
all those lovely FS mayhem makers).

Real World battery densities are about 3-5kg/L.
Does the FF&S table presume a void fraction of >33% (banks of cells on
racks )?
The energy density by TL is a very reasonable approximation.

Sorry about throwing my spare change into the ring.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:55:31 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: habitable moons of gas giants possible?

JF Ziegler replied:

<snippage>

>It's possible for a gas giant's moon to be large enough to hold
>an atmosphere. We have a couple of examples in the Terran
>system, after all.  Presumably a gas giant in the life zone
>could have a moon large enough to have an oxygen-nitrogen
>atmosphere.  My gut feeling is that this would be an unlikely
>situation, however.  The largest moon in the Terran system
>(Ganymede) has only about 2.5% Earth's mass. . .

You never can tell. Binary star systems are common enough that
almost double planet systems shouldn't be excessively rare. (Earth-Moon,
Pluto-Charon) are appropriate examples.  So, a GG might just as
well have one big moon as several small ones.

 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:58:15 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Intrasystem Hydrogen Transport

Gary at TravelrTNE@aol.com asked:

>What Tech Level is required to seperate the hydrogen
>from oxygen (chemically?) in water and would it be doable at a
>lower tech level w/ teh knowledge from a highest tech level (16
>in the Imperium c1116).

I'd guess roughly TL-3 as a lab curiosity, TL-4 to do it on a large
scale. Economically feasible is another question entirely.
Hydrogen-oxygen is among the more potent fuel mixtures, so you
need a cheaper energy source to make it common.

>For the higher tech level worlds, is it more viable to have
>"fuel harvesters" visiting the gas giants or to seperate it from
>water?

That's what I'd like to know. I don't know that anyone has worked
out the cost of separation vs. the cost of skimming and
transport, and my plate's a little bit full for that particular
project just now.

>Would removing water (either by removing the hydrogen from it or
>by ocean refueling) have an effect on the hydrosphere after a
>period of time?  I imagine a TL-15 Pop A system uses a whole lot
>of Lhyd each year...

That is a quicker estimate. One free trader using 20 dtons of
fuel, jumping out each week for each of its 4 billion or so
current inhabitants would drain the hydrogen in earth's oceans in
a mere 5 million years. You needn't worry. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:18:58 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation

At 12:12 PM 07/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>        I am in the process of working out how big a no-jump refinery ship
>>would have to be to be able to make a 5% profit on investment from doing
>>round-trips between a gas giant and a mainworld and dropping the fuel off...
>>I'll post the design and economics information when I am done tonight...  I
>>am doing the design under CT, and classing the extra fuel tankage as "cargo"
>>for purposes of the economics.
>
>As long as it is not the Nostromo...
>
>Kurt Feltenberger
>

        ROTFL!
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:11:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Fusion Plus (longish)

Robert O'Connor writes:
> The subject of Fusion Plus raises its ugly head again....
<realistic physics snipped>
Yah, the energy densities required by traveller just aren't viable for a
chemical power source.  You basically have three choices -- ignore the physical
limitations involved, use known non-chemical power sources, or invent new
techniques (with suitable technobabble).  The first option will automatically
aggravate the gearheads, and getting a useful power density out of the second
option is likely to involve ignoring some physical principles too.  The best
(established) technobabble for this appears to be damper fields.

Damper-assist RTG: put a medium half-life radioactive material in damper field
generator which can be tuned to either accelerate or decelerate decay.  You are
advised to choose something which doesn't emit much gamma ;).  This can
probably get quite high power densities, but fuel costs and usage will be
fairly high as nuclear power sources go.

Damper-assist (and gravetic assist) fission: lower fuel usage and higher energy
densities than the above (energy density really only limited by your ability to
handle the output of your core).  If you really feel like taking risks, could
be gas-core fission.  Has the disadvantage of being horribly unstable and an
incredibly dangerous neutron source, but as a power plant for a missile its
probably fine.
  
Bonded flywheels or superconducting loops: whatever technique is used to create
bonded superdense could probably be used in other ways, and might allow
creating incredibly high density superconducting loop batteries or some such. 
Note that these are really closer to HPGs than batteries; if you can store
enough power in a superconducting loop to be useful as a general purpose power
source, the weight of the capacitor in an energy weapon becomes functionally
irrelevant.

Beyond this, its conceivable that in some way power can be stored in some sort
of field (either gravetic or damper), though there's no canon support for this
being true.  OTOH, canon is unclear about exactly what happens to decay
energies in damper-assisted decay in any case.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:34:56 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Pirates :)

At 02:13 PM 07/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>        When we (HMCS Restigouche) came home from the Gulf, we went through
>that area.  The buggers were using cigarette boats with 20mm cannon on them
>to slow an intended target and biz copters to rappel commando squads onto
>the deck.  The commando squads could be expected to be equiped with Uzi's
>or
>H&K's and *cutlasses*.   Apparently the month before we went through, some
>Greek captain had tried to resist and they'd taken a piece out of him with
>one.
>        We closed up 2nd degree of readiness for the transit through the
>area, and put flood-lights to illuminate the 3."75's and the Harpoon boxes,
>and the Maple Leaf on the stack ("No, this is NOT a merchant.  Go Away.").
>I remember the Combat Officer briefing the CO that if we were attacked,
>he'd
>bring the "A" system (3"75's) online...  he didn't expect to hit them -
>that's be the waist 30mm & .50cal's - but he figured one two-barrel
>five-shot volley at night (MUZZLE FLASH) would convinced them to annoy
>someone else. =)
>******************
>a ship of the Yukon Space Navy going home after deplyment with the imperial
>navy.  the fastest route home is thru the pirate infested systems coreward
>of New New Zeland?
>
        Well, the vessel is stationed in Victoria, BC....  North of Seattle.
Not that it mattered;  we travelled to the area via Panam and Suez canals...
Actually circumnavigated.   Really, from the Op Area, it is pretty much the
same distance, steaming, either W or E.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:20:37
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fusion Plus

>From: CardSharks@aol.com

>Prior to M:0, there is a minimum size required for a fusion power plant.
>Efficient small craft powered by fusion were not possible; neither were small
>vehicles powered by fusion.
>
>Fusion Plus cracked that limit and made it possible to produce fusion power
>plants which had the same efficiency as larger plants, but were smaller. 

OK, so what is the minimum size of a fusion plant at TL12 ?

This will also affect small craft, because of the requirement to have a
fusion plant to run a HEPLAR drive. Allowing small fusion reactors will
allow minimum size Heplar drive, which will drive down the minimum cost of
a small craft (which now stands at about 2 megacredits for TL12, which is
wayyyy too high IMO).

The other issue is grav vehicles - the decision on the minimum size of
fusion power plants is important for grav tank design. It is possible to
build an internal-combustion grav tank, but not one that uses plasma or
laser main armament powered by the power plant (a short duration battery
powered from the main engine is possible, if you dont mind a small number
of shots available before you need to stop flying and recharge the battery).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:23:10 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

In a message dated 12/7/98 4:11:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:

<< A 2G, 5 kT BR is reasonably immune to bay-mounted weapons of all types;
spinal
 mounts will gut it.
 
 Assuming you think this is a problem, best solution would probably be
reducing
 the penetration of large energy weapons (not damage..just penetration), since
 the source of the problem is that if you take a 1,000x larger vehicle, it
will
 have 10x the armor and 30x the damage (and 100x the hp).  As I recall FF&S
also
 used penetration proportional to the square root of energy, so it might have
 the same problem (or not...I could never figure out the logic behind FF&S
 computations for weapon weights). >>


Maybe it's time to lobby Loren to put out some errata...

I have an idea. How about we assume current GT armor is equivelent to Striker
low tech armor. I remember it was MUCH denser than the TL15 super-dooper
stuff. I suggest (if GT mechanics allow it that is...) that we make high tech
armor much less dense (though probably retain current volume). That should fix
this problem.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:43:55 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Fusion Plus Discussion

From:           	CardSharks@aol.com
Date sent:      	Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:54:21 EST

>The small craft of the First Imperium and of the Interstellar Wars were bigger
>than thos of the Third Imperium because the 3I small craft (including
>fighters) could carry smaller fusion power plants. 

Much as I hate to dispute the highest authority in Traveller (:*>), I think this 
statement is just plain wrong. I've spent some time and with a little creativity 
you can indeed build a wide variety of reasonable small craft at low tech levels 
without the use of fusion plus. You can find several examples on my website 
(the TL 9 15 Td swallow shipsboat, the TL 9 75 Td Reppu "fighter", the TL11 
200 Td Tracy Longship, the 100 Td TL10 AK100 and TL11 AK111 ketches). The 
trick is to use fission reactors and fusion rockets. I'd agree that fighters are 
probably not going to be possible until TL10-11; but other small craft 
(comparable with fusion plus versions) are very doable.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:00:27 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

At 10:51 AM 12/8/98 +1000, you wrote:
>> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>> 
>> Do recall that a cubic meter of water weighs a ton. That means that for
>> every meter of depth, you have another *ton* of pressure on every
>> square meter of hull. 
>> 
>> Then consider that submarines can be detected *visually* in as much as
>> 30 meters of water (maybe more). I find it highly unlikely that your
>> ship is braced for 30 tons per square meter *inward* pressure. 
>> 
>> Among other things, remember that airlocks open *in* on spacecraft,
>> because that way the air pressure inside holds them closed. Submerge,
>> and the outside pressure is higher, and only the "latch" is resisting
>> all that pressure!
>> 
>> Iris hatches aren't going to handle that sort of pressure well. And the
>> only other kind of pressure hatch that *doesn't* suffer from the "opens
>> in/out" problem is a "rolling block" type seal as seen on Cardassian
>> airlocks on Deep Space 9. It's a nice design for hatches that you need
>> to be *strong*, and to open regardless of pressure differential. But
>> it's not suited to the outer hull. 
>> 
>
>This is a problem for SDBs, especially.  It's canon that some of them spend
>a lot of time lurking in oceans.  

I knew I had seen reference to this before in one of the LBBs.  In Secret
of the Ancients, p 18, the following limits are given:

"Equipment is subject to specific limits when in a gas giant environment,

...Ships and Small Craft
A 3G maneuver drive is required before a vessel can enter the atmosphere
below 37,000km (Note:  the altitudes are specific to the GG in the
scenario, diameter is 72,000km and atmosphere reaches to an altitude of
about 37,000km).  Commercial vessels (traders, merchants, liners) can
withstand up to 1000 degrees Kelvin and up to 1000 atmospheres.
Military vessels can handle temperatures up to 1500 degress Kelvin and
pressures up to 2000 atmospheres.  System Defense Boats are specifically
constructed to handle temperatures up to 2500 degrees Kelvin and pressures
to 3000 atmospheres."

Then, in Gamelords' "The Mountain Environment," page 14, it lists depths
and pressures:

Sea Level is 1atm
10m is 2atm
20m is 3atm
...
80m is 9atm
90m is 10atm.

If this is true (and I'll be the first to admit I am not an expert on
pressure as you increase the depth) and the increase is 1atm/10 meters of
depth, the the following may hold true:

Civilian ships:  1000 atm should give it a submerged depth of 9990meters
Military shipes: 2000 atm should give it a submerged depth of 19990meters
SDB class craft:  3000 atm should give it a submerged depth of 29990 meters

If this is correct, then the ocean refueling issue is moot.  Your basic
Type A Free Trader could refuel just about anywhere...The problem as I see
it is how much maneuver capacity would you need to surface if you had to go
that deep.


Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

Give me a lever long enough and a prop strong enough. I can
single-handedly move the world.
- --- Archimedes ---

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:02:41 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Intrasystem Hydrogen Transport

Thad Coons wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >Would removing water (either by removing the hydrogen from it or
> >by ocean refueling) have an effect on the hydrosphere after a
> >period of time?  I imagine a TL-15 Pop A system uses a whole lot
> >of Lhyd each year...
> 
> That is a quicker estimate. One free trader using 20 dtons of
> fuel, jumping out each week for each of its 4 billion or so
> current inhabitants would drain the hydrogen in earth's oceans in
> a mere 5 million years. You needn't worry.

The question is, would the M:1100 equivalent of the Greens have enough
political stroke to object?

(Of course, the _true_ M:1100 equivalent to the Greens would _also_
object to using the hydrogen from comets, gas giants, stars, or anything
else.  After all, _any_ human activity above TL-0 is
anti-environment....)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:02:01 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In a message dated 12/7/98 4:54:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:

> Some planets in Traveller (Vland for ex) have been using jump drives for
over
>  11,000 years.  Would that be enough for a noticible dent to the
hydrosphere?
>  Lhyd is also used in grav vehicles, planetary power grids, robots, etc as 
> well
>  as starship and military uses.  Thanks alot.  Quite informative.
>  

Granted.  But as I understand it a fusion power system uses a *lot* less
hydrogen than a jump drive -- the drive is basically flinging the LHyd out the
airlock into jump space at a prodigious rate.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1255
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 8 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1256



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

SJG Order by Mail Service
Possible solution to the armor problem
FASA Deckplans
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: Transporting Fuel Insystem
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: FASA Deckplans
Re: FASA Deckplans
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
[OFF TOPIC] Survey for Crusty Old Gamers
Re: Intrasystem Hydrogen Transport
A little bitter with the greens? (was: Re: Intrasystem Hydrogen Transport)
Re: Intrasystem Hydrogen Transport
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Re: Transporting Fuel In-System
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: GT Patrol Cruiser
Re: Mostly power systems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 23:06:41 -0500
From: "Shade" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: SJG Order by Mail Service

After all this talk of the evil and incompetent IG, I just wanted to say
that I received my copy of Aliens Vol 1 today from SJG.

I couldnt be more pleased.  It arrived exactly one week later and in perfect
condition.

Good work SJG.

Shade


The problem with religious texts is that the answers
arent in the BACK, either.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 23:29:04 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Possible solution to the armor problem

I have a possible solution to the situation with GURPS Traveller starship
armor. It is based on the precedence used for reactionless thrusters. I'm
not sure of the math involved; that I will leave to others. My idea is to
move higher tech armor down on the tech level scale for GT. The
number-crunchers can figure out exactly what the changes should be :) The
big question is: would the Powers That Be open to such an alteration?

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:55:15 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: FASA Deckplans

><< I have a scan of the Fasa deckplans but have not posted it.  If
>permission
> is granted, I'll be glad to post them.  I have most of the old Fasa plans
> reduced and ready to scan.
> 
> Kurt Feltenberger
>  >>
>
>Please....Please....PLEASE get permission and post the things...I love to
>collect deck plans!  As an aside; if you do get permission to do this; can you
>make some paper copies for me (either 15 or 25 mm), and snail mail them to me?
>I will, of course pay you for your time and expenses....

I _used_ to have permission from FASA, but when they sold the copyright
(to Seeker, IIRC) that permission was explicitly revoked. (I got a phone
call from the owner of Seeker to make certain I understood the change in
ownership.)

So a goo dplace to start is whoever owns Seeker now...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:01:55 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling 

Keven Pittsinger replied:

>Ability to skim doesn't imply ability to land.  Nobody says it
>does.  And according to Supplement 9: Fighting Ships, the AHLs
>have Factor 5 nuke dampers  & Factor 6 meson screens.  I
>wouldn't worry *TOO* much about taking fire from SDBs.

  So you use gas giants, but you can't use large iceballs or planetary oceans. 
    The captains are worried about things like about losing
enough speed in the skim that the 1G maneuver drive can't get
them back out of the gravity well.  Nuke dampers and meson
screens won't help you if you miscalculate the atmospheric
density and wind up doing an imitation of Skylab or comet
Shoemaker-Levy.  SDBs are NOT the major worry here.
  AHL is a millenium later and a couple of TLs higher than MTU. I
don't have Supplement 9. All I have are the much maligned
Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium plus FFS1&2, and IS.
  IOW, I don't have any canonical sources for FFS2-using TL11
designs for the Sylean predecessor of the Coronation class
battleship (mentioned in IS)...

>FWIW, any naval planner who sends out a raiding party that
>*can't* refuel all by itself ought to be shot for treason.

  You use top-of-the-line Battleships and Heavy Cruisers for
raiding parties??? My Grand Admiral uses them a) for show, and b)
to beat up on fleets attacking or defending key worlds (usually
the high pop, high tech, or industrial ones. Tell you what: when
you get to be Grand Admiral IMTU, you can rewrite Naval doctrine
and talk about shooting the naval architects all you want. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:03:57 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Transporting Fuel Insystem

Leonard Erickson wrote:

[Snippage]

>>     I'd also seriously consider running strings of RPVs from
>> the refinery to the starport (What is there for a crew to do
>> except at the ends of a run?). 

>Actually, it's cheaper to not use vehicles at all. Use some sort
>of "tug" to place the tanks (or whatever) into a transfer orbit
>that has an adequate safety margin.  Hang big radar corners off
>them so they stand out like a sore thumb (a radar corner a meter
>across gives a radar return like a "normal" ship 10-100 meters
>across!). At the destination, tugs go out intercept the cargo
>and drag it into parking orbits.

If your source is an iceball or comet, forget the tanks. Put a
reflective plastic coating on a slug of purified ice and away you
go. LH2 from a GG does need a tank, though.

>This minimizes the investment in drives and avionics, and
>maximizes the amount of cargo that gets moved. You don't do it
>with more expensive cargos, but for bulk cargos it's ideal.

(Head slapping) Now why didn't I think of that?  Of course that's
how you ship bulk solids intrasystem.

[More snippage]

>Also, it occurs to me that given the number of comets detected
>every year, there should be a fair number that only need a
>*small* nudge to go deeper into the system, and a slightly
>larger one to get them into a favorable relationship with where
>the target planet will be when they get there.

And how would you possibly give it a *big* nudge, anyway? <g> At
that distance out things in orbit are pretty slow moving, but a
small difference there makes a big difference in when and where
your comet goes.  There's a choice of taking your time about it
and getting it right in the first place, or waiting until it gets
falling at a pretty good clip and then trying to steer it.
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:07:46 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>Find a shallow lake or sea, and settle down on the bottom to
>refuel. I assume multi G man. drives can break the mud
>suction....

  Like I said...IMTU the TL-11 Sylean predecessor to the
Coronation class battleship and the Heavy Cruiser that goes with
it a) don't HAVE multi-g maneuver drives, and b) weren't
designed to either land or imitate a submarine.  
   (My poor TL-8 or so mind compares a 50+ kdton ship to a
several story office building with no foundation and boggles at
the notion of ever beaching the thing and still keeping it
spaceworthy.)
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:08:02 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

traveller@mpgn.com writes:
>I knew I had seen reference to this before in one of the LBBs.  In Secret
>of the Ancients, p 18, the following limits are given:
>
>"Equipment is subject to specific limits when in a gas giant environment,
>
>...Ships and Small Craft
>A 3G maneuver drive is required before a vessel can enter the atmosphere
>below 37,000km (Note:  the altitudes are specific to the GG in the
>scenario, diameter is 72,000km and atmosphere reaches to an altitude of
>about 37,000km).  Commercial vessels (traders, merchants, liners) can
>withstand up to 1000 degrees Kelvin and up to 1000 atmospheres.
>Military vessels can handle temperatures up to 1500 degress Kelvin and
>pressures up to 2000 atmospheres.  System Defense Boats are specifically
>constructed to handle temperatures up to 2500 degrees Kelvin and pressures
>to 3000 atmospheres."
[snip]
>
>Civilian ships:  1000 atm should give it a submerged depth of 9990meters
>Military shipes: 2000 atm should give it a submerged depth of 19990meters
>SDB class craft:  3000 atm should give it a submerged depth of 29990
>meters
>
>If this is correct, then the ocean refueling issue is moot.  Your basic
>Type A Free Trader could refuel just about anywhere...The problem as I see
>it is how much maneuver capacity would you need to surface if you had to
>go
>that deep.

It would be moot, IF the temperature/pressure ratings were accurate. Mind
you, if they were then civilian ships would be pretty invulnerable, let
alone military ones. IIRC (and I could be wrong), those
temperature/pressure combinations are where you start to do things like
create diamonds.

If those figures are accurate, then starship hulls are pretty
invulnerable...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:42:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: FASA Deckplans

- ---Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca> wrote:
>> I _used_ to have permission from FASA, but when they sold the copyright
> (to Seeker, IIRC) that permission was explicitly revoked. (I got a phone
> call from the owner of Seeker to make certain I understood the change in
> ownership.)
> 
> So a goo dplace to start is whoever owns Seeker now...
> 

I'm going to scream.  I posted a request to the list a month ago
asking if anyone knew who owns the Seeker rights and all I got was a
run-around.  Here we go again!




==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:57:14 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: FASA Deckplans

In a message dated 12/7/98 9:42:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
swordworlder@yahoo.com writes:

<< I'm going to scream.  I posted a request to the list a month ago
 asking if anyone knew who owns the Seeker rights and all I got was a
 run-around.  Here we go again!  >>

Ask Marc Miller. He knows the guy. I think his name is Ed Sanders and he owns
the DGP stuff too...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:41:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

In mail you write:

>> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>> 
>> Do recall that a cubic meter of water weighs a ton. That means that for
>> every meter of depth, you have another *ton* of pressure on every
>> square meter of hull. 
>> 
>> Then consider that submarines can be detected *visually* in as much as
>> 30 meters of water (maybe more). I find it highly unlikely that your
>> ship is braced for 30 tons per square meter *inward* pressure. 
>> 
>> Among other things, remember that airlocks open *in* on spacecraft,
>> because that way the air pressure inside holds them closed. Submerge,
>> and the outside pressure is higher, and only the "latch" is resisting
>> all that pressure!
>> 
>> Iris hatches aren't going to handle that sort of pressure well. And the
>> only other kind of pressure hatch that *doesn't* suffer from the "opens
>> in/out" problem is a "rolling block" type seal as seen on Cardassian
>> airlocks on Deep Space 9. It's a nice design for hatches that you need
>> to be *strong*, and to open regardless of pressure differential. But
>> it's not suited to the outer hull. 
>> 
>
> This is a problem for SDBs, especially.  It's canon that some of them spend
> a lot of time lurking in oceans.  

SDBs that are going to lurk in GGs or oceans obviously need *special*
engineering considerations.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:13:44 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Survey for Crusty Old Gamers

Could any players or former players (who still maintain an interest) of
SPI/TSR's game DragonQuest please contact me privately.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:22:45 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Intrasystem Hydrogen Transport

Dear Folks -

Thad replied to Gary thus:
> That is a quicker estimate. One free trader using 20 dtons of
> fuel, jumping out each week for each of its 4 billion or so
> current inhabitants would drain the hydrogen in earth's oceans in
> a mere 5 million years. You needn't worry.

Has *anyone* ever read Asimov's story about the Martians who collected (the
equivalent of) drop tanks? I thought it was supposed to be a classic short
story. So classic, I can't even remember the name right now.  %-(

Ah - I think it was "The Martian Way".

IMTU, the sort of scavengers that exist in Asimov's story exist in
high-freight-capacity systems. Since the megacorps use bulk traders
(5000t+) with drop tanks, it becomes commercially viable to collect these
cast-offs and return them to the starport for a fee.

(I just *say* it is viable, I've never bothered to do the math - why ruin
"local colour" with the facts... This is my swipe at all those
economic/piracy/tramp trader/size of the Navy issues... ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 01:28:32 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: A little bitter with the greens? (was: Re: Intrasystem Hydrogen Transport)

Black ICE wrote:

>The question is, would the M:1100 equivalent of the Greens have enough
>political stroke to object?
>
>(Of course, the _true_ M:1100 equivalent to the Greens would _also_
>object to using the hydrogen from comets, gas giants, stars, or anything
>else.  After all, _any_ human activity above TL-0 is
>anti-environment....)


As the title says, are you a tad bitter with the greens? :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 01:32:17 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Intrasystem Hydrogen Transport

David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson  said:

>IMTU, the sort of scavengers that exist in Asimov's story exist in
>high-freight-capacity systems. Since the megacorps use bulk traders
>(5000t+) with drop tanks, it becomes commercially viable to collect these
>cast-offs and return them to the starport for a fee.
>
>(I just *say* it is viable, I've never bothered to do the math - why ruin
>"local colour" with the facts... This is my swipe at all those
>economic/piracy/tramp trader/size of the Navy issues... ;-)


So, do drop tanks have the cryptic phrase "no deposit, no return" written
around the rim? :-)

Reminds me of the "Milk Bottle" article that Marc Miller had in Dragon many,
many years ago.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:24:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In mail you write:

>> My guess is, you could refuel a squadron of dreadnaughts every day for a
>> thousand years and not make a noticeable dent.
>
> Some planets in Traveller (Vland for ex) have been using jump drives for over
> 11,000 years.  Would that be enough for a noticible dent to the hydrosphere?
> Lhyd is also used in grav vehicles, planetary power grids, robots, etc as 
> well as starship and military uses.  Thanks alot.  Quite informative.

Sit down and do the math. You'll find that it'll take quite a bit to
make a noticeable dent in a planetary hydrosphere. Planets are *huge*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:29:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

In mail you write:

> It's very possible to have a moon of a Gas Giant with a habitable
> environment. Just because a Gas Giant is mostly gas does not mean it's not
> dense enough to have sufficient gravity to attract heavy satelite bodies.
> Saturn does have a density low enough to allow it to float on water (if you
> could find a body of water big enough to try), but it's total mass is
> enormous (how many moons dos she have?). Jupiter, the king of them all, has
> several moons near the size of Luna (the earth's moon) and one bigger I
> believe (Titan).

Titan is one of Saturn's moons.

> The main problem with habitable worlds around a Gas Giant is the Gas Giant.
> Think of the seasons on earth, they are governed by the amount of warmth
> recieved from the sun. Now, conciter, if there was a large object that
> periodically cut off your access to this warmth. Your habitable world would
> have to be in a high, fast orbit around this Giant to minimize the amount
> of time cut off from the star or you will have long periods of very
> inhospitable weather, not likely very healthy for the development of life.

Except that due to the mass of a gas giant, the orbital periods of the
moons are a *lot* shorter. For example, Ganymede has a period of a
*week*. The star will only be eclipsed by the GG for a matter of
*hours*. And only at certain times of year, depending on the
inclination of the moon's orbit.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:35:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting Fuel In-System

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Think of it as a conveyer belt with no belt. :-)
>
> Actually, it's cheaper to not use vehicles at all. Use some sort of
> "tug" to place the tanks (or whatever) into a transfer orbit that has
> an adequate safety margin. Hang big radar corners off them so they
> stand out like a sore thumb (a radar corner a meter across gives a
> radar return like a "normal" ship 10-100 meters across!). At the
> destination, tugs go out intercept the cargo and drag it into parking
> orbits.
>
> This minimizes the investment in drives and avionics, and maximizes the
> amount of cargo that gets moved. You don't do it with more expensive
> cargos, but for bulk cargos it's ideal. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Makes me wonder if refuelling for the ethically-challenged merchant
> would be easier in a system that was doing this. Why get close to
> the mainworld or gas giant, when there's this continuous stream of
> icebergs crossing a chunk of the system?
>
> And if these icebergs each have the radar signature of a ship 100m wide,
> I could imagine some intrepid soul trying to hide a little corsair among
> them, just for a little while...

Actually, the signature is likely to be a *lot* bigger than that. Since
a radar corner basicly consists of some metal foil on a wire frame,
they are dirt cheap to make. I'd expect that you'd see 10 or 100 meter
radar corners, giving the cargoes the radar signature of a small
asteroid. 

But just remember that you may get noticed trying to insinuate yourself
into the "stream" of cargo. They'll be traveling on trajectories that
are rather inconvenient to match except shortly after departure or
shortly before arrival. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:43:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>  
>> Sorry, but J1 and a microjump take the same amount of fuel. So unless
>> you've got a ship that can hold fuel for *more* than 2 J1s, you *have*
>> to go out there in normal space.
>
>  Duh...why? If you have J-2, like most traders would- (I'm running in Old
> Expanses. Looking at the astrography J-1 traders are pretty useless.)- you
> can jump to Kuiper belt from another system, refuel, jump in (half you'r
> J-2 fuel), conduct you'r business and, and jump to Kuiper belt again (the
> other half of the fuel). Then you just refuel again and continue on you'r
> merry way. 
>
>  Granted you lose 2 weeks in the process, so this would not be done if
> _any_ fuel is available on mainworld. But if this is the only way to get
> good to a world with any significant population, traders will take it.

Except that in the scenario you just gave, the ship can just as easily
jump to the main world (using J1 worth of fuel) then jump outsystem
again, using the rest of the fuel. That takes *half* the time, and the
only difference is that you arerive at the next stop "empty". 

If you want avoid that, then you could do a jump to the kuiper belt on
the way out. 

However, the important fact here is that while you can find comets and
the like out there, you can't do so *quickly*. Among other things, they
are likely to be tens of AU away. Remember, at the *inner* edge, the
Kuiper Belt is about 40 AU in radius. And it extends out for quite a
ways. Assume it's several AU thick, and you get an inner edge that has
an area of ~77 AU by 4 AU or about 307 AU. Add in a nice "wdth" for the
belt, and work out just how many cubic AUs the thousands of bodies are
scattered thru. 

>  BTW you indicate there's a canonical source discussing microjumps. Could
> you give a reference if at all possible, i'd like to read what is said. (I
> was thinking of using half of J-1 fuel for microjumo myself, but if 
> canonical data is microjump=J-1 I might go with that instead.)  

I don't recall where it's mentioned. I'm pretty sure that Mark Miller
has confirmed microjump=j1 for fuel usage.

>> It'll take a lot more than a "few ion engines" to get it into that
>> transfer orbit. And a Hohmann transfer orbit from (say) Pluto's orbit
>> to Earth orbit will take somewhere between 50 and 100 years....
>> (half of whatever the orbital period of a circular 20 AU radius orbit
>> is) 
>
>   OK, let's amend that to constant deceleration spiral orbit (kinda like
> what you would get solar sailing fron Earth to Sun). I figure it'll still
> take a couple of decedades, but the again the 20km ball of sludge _is_ a
> pretty big source. Even the busiest highports would only neen to drop in a
> comet evrey couple of years. And the amount of ion engines needed will not
> be so large as to make it economically unfeasible, especilally since you
> only need couple of hundreths of G:s of accleleration, and you get to
> reuse the engines.  

A 20 km chunk of ice has a radius of 10,000 meters. And a volume of
4.2e12 m^3. Assuming it was pure water, that's a mass of 4.2e12 *tons*.

At 2/100ths of a g, you need a thrust of 84 *billion* tons. Even with
an ion engine, that's gonna use a *lot* of reaction mass. 

Now let's consider the trip time. 40 AU is 6 billion km. Or 6 trillion
(6e12) meters. 

D=.5*a*t^2
3e12 = .5 * (1/50 * 10) * T^2
3e12 = .5 * .2 * T^2
3e12 = .1 * T^2
3e13 = T^2
T = 5477225.575 sec

That's time to halfway. Doubling it gives: 10954451.15 sec

That's 126.8 days. 

Only problem is, if you work out the fuel consumption, you'll find that
even with ion drive, the required fuel would be prohibitive.

So you are either boosting *much* more slowly, or doing so
intermittently. 

>  > Remember, oxygen and water have to be recycled on any planet without a
>> breathable atmosphere. It's no different than a large space station,
>> except that you don't have to budget as much for "structure". 
>
>   Even with the best of enclosed habitats you get some wastage (especially
> if you're trying to produce something for export). I admit you could deal
> with this for thousands, at higher TL even millions of people, but there
> are airless, waterless planets with _billions_ of people on the starmaps.
> Even if you lose only one or two percent life support materiel per cycle
> (optimistic, since you'll be doing some major exprt to support an economy
> this massive) you'll be in major trouble replenishning this from offworld.

Heck, the more massive the system, the *lower* the losses. That's the
way eco-systems *work*. Also, the larger the habitat, the *lower* the
surface area to volume ration is. And it's the surface area where
losses occur. 

And with even thousands of people, you are going to have to have a full
fledged eco-system of some sort. By the time you get to millions,
you'll be doing things like using artificial marshes to recycle sewage
(this is a recent technology, but quite workable). At one end you have
a pretty nasty swamp. At the other you have clean water that can be
drunk straight from the marsh, as well as large numbers of edible fish.
You also have a lot of vegetation (which helps recycle air). The reeeds
and the like turn out to have an affinity for the heavy metals. You can
actually *burn* them to white ash and recover metals from the ash!

The bacteria and the like in the swampier stages of the marsh break
down or otherwise sequester toxic chemicals. At some point, you want to
stop using the first stage swamp/marsh and set up a new one. Easiest
way would be to just start dumping into the second stage marsh and have
a new final stage. 

Meanwhile, after it dries out, you dig up the old marsh and extract any
toxins that weren't broken down. You may decide to regulate
production/use of some things if you get too much toxic waste. But
mostly it'll be only the *really* weird stuff left behind. 

Heck, with a bit of planning, you could put the marshes in a circular
belt, such that you are only using half of it at any given time, and
thus have decades to do any cleanup work needed.

Anyway, this is based on *real* sewage treatment techniques. And about
the last *third* of the required "marshlands" are usable for
recreation. 

You *can* get workable recycling in much less space, but it won't be as
efficient. And as we've learned the hard way, you *want* a large
biomass reservior. 

Enclosing this much volume will be a problem, but a solvable one. I
rather expect that there will be a lot of "farmland" as well as the
"marshlands". 

On airless worlds, and ones where the air is really thin, I think I'd
go for underground placement of the marshes and "farms". Create a
series of linked "bubble caverns" with nukes, meson guns, or whatever. 

On worlds with a decent pressure, but non-breathable air, you can get
by with fairly light construction. This includes the higher presure but
non-exotic atmospheres. No reason not to have the marshes/farms at
ambient pressure. 

With exotic atmosphere types, underground starts to look good again.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 01:47:05 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Patrol Cruiser

Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com> writes:


>> 
>> << Comments welcome! >>
>> 
>> How about deck plans....?
>
>I'm considering doing these, but I recall somebody (I can't remember
>who...) on the list mentioning they had deckplans for the standard
>patrol cruiser available. Do you remember who you are???

 I have the FASA version, but it has FASAs usual flair for the
inaccurate, so it's on my short list for being redone (the T4
Subsidized Liner, with the three-story-tall walk-in closets, is
currently at the top of that list...)

Cheers,

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 18:53:14
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Mostly power systems

>From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
>Subject: Ditzie's favouite fast food joint
>
>Having received my copy of Behind the Claw today my first thought on reading
>about Astroburgers is what is the FS connection - Personally I can see FS
>providing the weaponry used by the new-market team or alternatively Ditzie
>being the first customer at the Zyra branch.....

I dont have BtC, so could someone please tell me more ...

>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
>Subject: Re : Fusion Plus (longish)
>
>This redresses the fuel consumption issue somewhat.
>A MW-hour is a heck of a lot of energy though.

You dont work at Famile Spofulam, do you ?

>*Hot fusion reactors should be both more energy and mass dense than
>quoted in FF&S (if current RW research is close to the mark). One could
>explain canon volume figures by the need for shielding from all the
>neutrons and X-rays produced. Masses may be a little low,
>unless a large void fraction is assumed.

Fair enough

>*Apologies to Ian and Ditzie :-
>I know you're both big fans of batteries (being very useful things for
>all those lovely FS mayhem makers).
>
>Real World battery densities are about 3-5kg/L.
>Does the FF&S table presume a void fraction of >33% (banks of cells on
>racks )?
>The energy density by TL is a very reasonable approximation.

Whats your view on the shorter-duration batteries ? One of Ditzie's
favorite habits for energy weapons for short-duration combat (eg grav
tanks) is 5-minute duration batteries (lets face it, after 5 minutes of
firing, one of you should be dead dead dead).

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: Re : Fusion Plus (longish)
>
>Yah, the energy densities required by traveller just aren't viable for a
>chemical power source.  You basically have three choices -- ignore the
physical
>limitations involved, use known non-chemical power sources, or invent new
>techniques (with suitable technobabble).  The first option will automatically
>aggravate the gearheads, and getting a useful power density out of the second
>option is likely to involve ignoring some physical principles too.  The best
>(established) technobabble for this appears to be damper fields.

Well, given the low power consumption of contragrav, chemical power plants
do seem still to have a role, at least for the export market.

>Damper-assist RTG: put a medium half-life radioactive material in damper
field
>generator which can be tuned to either accelerate or decelerate decay.
You are
>advised to choose something which doesn't emit much gamma ;).  This can
>probably get quite high power densities, but fuel costs and usage will be
>fairly high as nuclear power sources go.

Hmm, could this be an option for the gap between fusion and everything else
? Or is this what is assumed for high-tech batteries ?

>Damper-assist (and gravetic assist) fission: lower fuel usage and higher
energy
>densities than the above (energy density really only limited by your
ability to
>handle the output of your core).  If you really feel like taking risks, could
>be gas-core fission.  Has the disadvantage of being horribly unstable and an
>incredibly dangerous neutron source, but as a power plant for a missile its
>probably fine.

Hmmmmm. Ditzie wants to know much more, but as a missile power plant it
seems to be of limited utility - missiles need a fusion plant to run
Heplar, and missiles dont demand much power.

As dampers are TL12, I can see the damper-assisted gas core fission reactor
being an engineering curiousity - why not just use the small TL12 fusion
plants ?
  
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Fusion Plus Discussion
>
>Much as I hate to dispute the highest authority in Traveller (:*>), I
think this 
>statement is just plain wrong. I've spent some time and with a little
creativity 
>you can indeed build a wide variety of reasonable small craft at low tech
levels 
>without the use of fusion plus. You can find several examples on my website 
>(the TL 9 15 Td swallow shipsboat, the TL 9 75 Td Reppu "fighter", the TL11 
>200 Td Tracy Longship, the 100 Td TL10 AK100 and TL11 AK111 ketches). The 
>trick is to use fission reactors and fusion rockets. I'd agree that
fighters are 
>probably not going to be possible until TL10-11; but other small craft 
>(comparable with fusion plus versions) are very doable.

Andrew, Ditzie wants to know how you managed to build a reasonably-sized
TL11 missile. She cant manage it.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1256
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 8 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1257



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1248
Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
High Guard: looking for errata/changes
T5 Material - A question.
Planetary Hydrographics (was Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation)
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re : Power Systems (was Fusion Plus, longish)
Re: Mostly power systems
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Discount for items of unknown origin
re: Transporting Fuel In-System
Re: FASA Deckplans
re: Planetary Hydrographics
Robot for GT
Re: Planetary Hydrographics
re: Planetary Hydrographics
Re: FASA Deckplans
Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
Re: DGP & Paul Sanders (was Re:FASA Deckplans)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:10:43 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1248

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/6/98 8:50:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, omary@my-
> dejanews.com writes:
>
> << I can attest to the strain of shifting back and forth from day to night
> shifts on a repeated basis. >>
>
> So can I. Try a week of days, a week of swings, and then a week of midnights.
> Then keep repeating. And cities wonder why their police unions are constantly
> trying to end this. (usually with a plan that uses permanent shifts, and
> seniority is weighted for bidding for favorite shifts...)

 How 'bouts 2 days, then 3 graves, every week, with a full school load.

- --
Ave et vale.
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Solus Stellamilitia Ludus, 1998 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:25:23 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem

Mon, 7 Dec 1998 23:29:04 -0500, "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>

>I have a possible solution to the situation with GURPS Traveller starship
>armor. It is based on the precedence used for reactionless thrusters. I'm
>not sure of the math involved; that I will leave to others. My idea is to
>move higher tech armor down on the tech level scale for GT. The
>number-crunchers can figure out exactly what the changes should be :) The
>big question is: would the Powers That Be open to such an alteration?

What problem are we talking about?  (I haven't been following
the discussion).


______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 2:30:51 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: High Guard: looking for errata/changes

I'm looking for errata or additions or changes for High Guard;
please e-mail me off the list, since HG seems to be out of favor.


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:04:35 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: T5 Material - A question.

Where can I find the draft T5 stuff? Is it available for download or must I
get put on a list somewhere?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:40:01 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Planetary Hydrographics (was Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation)

Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi> wrote

> > For a Hydrographic percentage of zero, think Sahara desert. Not
> > widely inhabited, but not totally barren either.

> That's how I've dealt with this too. Hyd0 planets _do_ have some 
> water, enough to support the population but not enough to make cheap 
> Lhyd fuel. Thus you could get fuel from a no water present mainworld 
> but it would be obscenely expensive.

Well canonically in Traveller a Hyd0 planet can have up to 4% water.

Four percent of the surface of a planet can be an _awfully_ large
ammount.  The Mediterranean Sea for example occupies much less than 4%
of the Earths surface.  However that is still thousands of cubic
kilometers of water with trillions (1x10^12) of tons of water.  You
could refuel an AHL clan cruiser out of it every day for the next
thousand years or so and it would still be 99+% intact.  Do you really
think thats enough of a shortage of water to drive up the price.

I wouls suggest finding out the exact ammount of water using MT's WB
Hbk.  It states that you should roll 2d-7 (rerolling a roll of 12) and
add to this number to the hydrographics roll x10 (pg69)

For a Hydrographics 0 World this would indicate the following figures

Roll	Hydrographics	Hydrographics	
	(WBH)% 		(more detailed) %	

2	0		< 0.00097
3	0		0.00098 - 0.0039
4	0		0.0039 -  0.0155
5	0		0.0156 -  0.625%
6	0		0.0625 -  0.2499%
7	0		0.25   -  0.99%
8	1		1.00   -  1.99%
9	2		2.00   -  2.99%
10	3		3.00   -  3.99%
11	4		4.00   -  4.99%
12	Rerolled

Note that you can determine the hydrographic % of every planet. [The
more detailed ammounts are my extrapolation.]  Using this system some
Hyd 0 planets will be 4.99% water [or other liquid] covered and some
will have less than onoe onethousandth of a percent of their surface
covered with water.  [The same system can be used for Hyd A planets
simply by reversing the words land & water, of course.]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 01:05:09 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> > Find a shallow lake or sea, and settle down on the bottom to refuel. 
> > I assume multi G man. drives can break the mud suction....
> 
> Do recall that a cubic meter of water weighs a ton. That means that 
> for every meter of depth, you have another *ton* of pressure on every
> square meter of hull. 

> Then consider that submarines can be detected *visually* in as much as
> 30 meters of water (maybe more). I find it highly unlikely that your
> ship is braced for 30 tons per square meter *inward* pressure. 
> Among other things, remember that airlocks open *in* on spacecraft,
> because that way the air pressure inside holds them closed. Submerge,
> and the outside pressure is higher, and only the "latch" is resisting
> all that pressure! 
> Iris hatches aren't going to handle that sort of pressure well.

This is very logical & is undoutably correct in terms of real world
engineering _but_ canonically we know that starship hulls can indeed
withstand enormous pressures.

In CT Adv 12, Secrets of the Ancients, there is a table giving specific
depths within the gas giant that the lost Ancient city might be at &
notes the atmospheric pressure at that depth.  IIRC the table went up
into the thousands of atmospheres.  One atmosphere (15 lbs psi) is about
10 tons per square meter.  Therefore Traveller starships can descend to
quite great depths in water.  My copy of Secrets of the Ancients was
mislaid in my recent move, could someone please check this table.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 21:25:34 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Power Systems (was Fusion Plus, longish)

Anthony Jackson wrote :-

> The best (established) technobabble for this appears to be damper fields.
>
The damper-assist RTG is a good idea. The two isotopes that look optimal
are :-Plutonium 238, with a half life of 87 years and a specific power
of 73.53W/kg, and
Curium 244, with a half life of 18 years and a specific power of
524.76W/kg. [1]

Pu 238 is used in the U.S. space program's RTGs.

However, battery energy densities (referring to FF&S2 table 224,
'Batteries') could be explained by judicious choice of electrolytes and
increasing efficiency of extracting energy.
E.g. a *perfect* nickel cadmium battery would have seven to ten times
the energy density of the contemporary article (cited values for RW
ni-cads range from 0.07 to 0.11 MJ/kg).

There are many other combinations of ions with higher energy densities -
nickel cadmium is average for a chemical battery system.

> Damper-assist (and gravitic assist) fission:
>
Another good idea. As Ian Whitchurch pointed out though, it's a bit
redundant with a mature fusion technology. However, maybe not every
culture manages to crack the 'fusion problem'.

The size constraint on fission piles limits their utility (no Mr.
Fission in the family runabout).

Beyond TL 8, particle accelerator (proton beam) driven reactors would
soon supplant conventional technologies in those societies concerned
about loss of coolant accidents and meltdowns.... Fission can't continue
when the accelerator is off.

Ob Trav :-
For an accelrator-driven fission plant design a C-PAW (proton beam) with
discharge energy equal to (power plant output in MW/50) MJ with a ROF of
2 per second. Otherwise identical to TL 8 fission plant in FF&S terms
(mass, volume, etc). [2]

I assume that damper technology is used in fusion plants once it is
available to enable smaller reactors (hence the dramatic decrease in
plant minimum size with TL) and, realistically, to permit proton chain
fusion (it isn't called a star cycle for nothing ; you need truly
stupendous pressures and temperatures to do this trick!).

>
> Bonded flywheels or superconducting loops:
>
Probably separate technologies. High temperature superconductors and
superdense materials arise through a similar line of research.

Very high energy density accumulator banks would have to use superdense
flywheels or superconducting loops as you describe.

Try this handwave :-
Quantum dots are discovered at TL 8. These are collections of electrons
in semiconductors which behave like a single electron. 'Artificial
atoms' are soon devised with quantum dot arrangements similar to the
electron configurations of regular atoms.

Increasing sophistication in computer modelling and good old hard work
in the lab identifies some useful anomalous behaviours in certain
elements and compounds which yield high temperature superconductors at
TL 9-10.

A workable quantum gravity theory arises at TL 9, and gravitic devices
soon after. Superdense materials are discovered when artificial atoms
are manipulated in contragravity fields. Certain metastable (many years)
alternative condensed (retain structure after being returned to normal
gravitational field strengths) crystalline forms of familar elements,
and several useful componds are predicted then synthesised - these are
the first superdense materials.

Ian,
Astroburgers in BtC is possibly the most aggressive fast food chain ever
seen. They set up a store in a combat zone and started serving food (ye
gods!).

I have no objection to short life batteries (appear in FF&S2 and could
potentially be used as cheapish accumulator banks). They are a useful
solution to the energy weapon problem.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

[1] Colozza A.J. 'Preliminary Design of a Long-Endurance Mars Aircraft.'
NASA CR 185243, Lewis Research Centre 1990.
[2] based on a proposed system described in Bowman C.
'Accelerator-Driven Systems in Nuclear Energy :
Role and Technical Approach.' The ADNA Corporation, ADNA 97/013.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

(my apologies to the non-gearheads on the list)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:11:07 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Mostly power systems

Date sent:      	Tue, 08 Dec 1998 18:53:14
From:           	Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>

>>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>>Subject: Re: Fusion Plus Discussion

>Andrew, Ditzie wants to know how you managed to build a reasonably-sized
>TL11 missile. She cant manage it.

From the errata sheet:
Table 167: Nuclear Rockets
Replace the current table with the following:

TL Type       Thrust  Price   Fuel      Ftype
               kn/m3  MCr/m3  m3/hr/kN
7  NTR           80    8.00   5.94      LHyd
8  NTR          100   10.00   5.90      LHyd
8  AdvNTR       120   12.00   4.17      LHyd
9  GCNTR         50   16.67   2.52      LHyd
9  Exp. Fusion   30    3.50   0.0072    LHyd
9  Fusion        90    0.35   0.0035    LHyd
10 AND        1,100    0.80   0.034     D/T water

AND is the Advanced Nuclear Drive, a low-efficiency/high-
performance lightweight fusion rocket, using tritium-
enriched heavy water, for use in missiles. The  exhaust 
(and the whole engine after more than a few seconds of 
firing) is moderately radioactive; it can only be used 
in expendable vehicles. Missiles using this drive are 
"kicked" a  few tens of meters away from the launching 
ship by the launcher or by a explosive charge in the 
launch cannister. 

You can either use an AND (the magic drive) or a TL 9 
fusion rocket (and a rapid turn away to get out of the 
exhaust plume).

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:20:20 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

> > Some planets in Traveller (Vland for ex) have been using jump drives for
over
> > 11,000 years.  Would that be enough for a noticible dent to the
hydrosphere?
> > Lhyd is also used in grav vehicles, planetary power grids, robots, etc as
> > well as starship and military uses.  Thanks alot.  Quite informative.
> 
> Sit down and do the math. You'll find that it'll take quite a bit to
> make a noticeable dent in a planetary hydrosphere. Planets are *huge*.

You're right, of course.  I'm not concerned about the oceans drying up or
anything but more about incidental ecological effects of removing and not
replacing the water.  But it is relatively insignificant amounts, and there
could well be methods for replacing it, i suppose.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:30:23 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Discount for items of unknown origin

At 08:41 08/12/1998, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
>
>Well, under FFS2 a set of thruster plates is worth, at minimum, MCr 2.5.
>Assuming you can get 40% of value (probable, given that they are pretty
>useful and ubiquitous), then thats a megacredit of revenue.
>

I'd take issue with that.

In fact I'd be surprised if the figure was even 10%.

First, there is a problem with the base price.

The current rules imply that the cost of an item for a starship is the
same wether part of the starship or bought separately. You could assume
that the cost of a starship fusion plant as part of the ship cost includes
fitting plus all the power lines and other wiring that make it useful.
This still means that there should be a difference between buying a
fusion plant and having a fusion plant fitted to your ship but for most
purposes I'll assume that the extra cost of fitting is offset by the
shipyard recovering parts from the decomissioned plant.

So I'll assume that for the cost in the book you get a brand new
standalone unit (complete with guarantees).

The retailer wants to make a profit so the price to them is lower.

However, secondhand stuff has significantly reduced value. If you sell
to someone who wants a power plant, they are going to want a significant
saving (like 50%) because they get no guarantee of how it has been used
and no one to complain to if it breaks, even if you supply all the
service history. If you sell to a retailer, then they can give a guarantee
to their customer but will need to service the item, make a profit and
still have a margin in case it does not work and is returned.
A possible assumption is that the retailer will sell at 60% of full price
and thus will only pay 40% of full price. Don't forget that any tax that
the retailer pays also has to come out of any margin.
If the retailer charged more than 60% then they would have problems
competing with new products.

The problem is that you have goods of unknown age, origin and title.

In the real world stuff like this gets an inspection for insurance
purposes. Now you can jump to the next planet before the paperwork
catches up but the buyer can't, so they will want a large margin to
cover the occasional unhappy customer and reposesed goods.

Also asking all the possible buyers for a price risks inviting the
police to the party so you will be restricted to your list of buyers
to those that you think you can trust.

Thus you won't be getting 40%.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:01:25 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: re: Transporting Fuel In-System

At 12:23 07/12/1998 -0400, misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca wrote:
>        Ok, so here's a TL 9 "Refinery Tanker".  Built at TL9 under CT/HG
>rules.  No jump capability, and makes a 1% rate of return on investment,
>hauling two loads of fuel from a GG to the starport per month.  Given that
>transit time at 1G to a "near gas giant" is ~5d, that allows a day on each
>end of the voyage to scoop or unload and one weekend a month off for the
crew.
>
<snip design>

consider using more G to reduce the time taken. At 4G, I calculate that the
time should be halved, allowing more runs per month and much more profit.
(G will increase cost per transported unit of fuel, but unless it doubles
this cost it would make sense.
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 09:13:03 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: FASA Deckplans

><< I'm going to scream.  I posted a request to the list a month ago
> asking if anyone knew who owns the Seeker rights and all I got was a
> run-around.  Here we go again!
>  >>
>
>Ask Marc Miller. He knows the guy. I think his name is Ed Sanders and he
>owns
>the DGP stuff too...

It's PAUL Sanders that owns the DGp stuff, and if he also owns the Seeker
copyrights then you're almost certainly out of luck. He hasn't been very
good at releasing anything he owns the rights to (in spite of many plans,
nothing ever gets published).

If you _do_ manage to contact him, could you ask him when he plans on
paying me the money DGP owes me?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:11:08 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Planetary Hydrographics

Peter Newman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well canonically in Traveller a Hyd0 planet can have up to 4% water.

Four percent of the surface of a planet can be an _awfully_ large
ammount.  The Mediterranean Sea for example occupies much less than 4%
of the Earths surface.  However that is still thousands of cubic
kilometers of water with trillions (1x10^12) of tons of water.  You
could refuel an AHL clan cruiser out of it every day for the next
thousand years or so and it would still be 99+% intact.  Do you really
think thats enough of a shortage of water to drive up the price.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What's the chance that every drop of water on this hydrographic-0
planet accumulated in one place? That's what would be required for
a hydro-0 planet to have a Mediterranean-sized sea on it.

More likely, the water will be scattered in small oasis, seeps,
underground catchbasins and such. Each one of these would probably
be the lifeblood of the community around it - and refuelling an AHL
at one would drain that particular water source dry. Sure, there might
be a couple thousand such sources on the planet, but each one will
be locally precious and small.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:11:44 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Robot for GT

This robot was inspired by AB-101 (or Aybee Wan Owen) from the old Traveller
Digest, although it diverges in some areas from the example :) This was fun
and much easier to build with GURPS Robots than with the robot rules I have
seen for Traveller (except maybe the original ones that appeared in the
journal, but those were somewhat limited). (I must confess here I have never
used Book 8, having only attempted the rules in Vampire Fleets). Anyway,
here it is:

PSEUDOBIOLOGICAL ROBOT (TL 12)

BRAIN: Standard robot brain with Compact, Genius, Neural-Net, High Capacity
and Reflex Boost +3 Options. Complexity: 6 Wt.: 5 lbs Vol: 0.1 cf, Cost:
$1,890,000, Power Neg. LR 5, Pts: 70

SENSORS: Basic TL 12 Sensors Wt.: 0.25 lbs, Vol: 0.005 cf Cost: $1,250 Pts:
0

COMMUNICATIONS: Basic Communicator/Voice Synthesizer, No Radio, Wt.: 0.225
lbs, Vol:0.0045 cf,
Cost: $112.5, Pts. 5

ARM MOTORS: 2 arms; Wt.: 0.55 each, Vol 0.011 cf each, Cost: $1100 each,
Power 0.055 kW each

PROPULSION: Leg Drivetrain, motive power 0.2 kW, Wt.: 3 lbs, Vol: 0.06 cf,
Cost: $600

WEAPONS: Light Laser Torch (located in right arm, fully concealed) Wt: 1 lb.
Vol: 0.05 cf. Cost: $25 Shots: 240 (uses a rechargeable C cell) Type: Imp.
Damage: 1d-2 SS:9 Acc:1 Half Damage Range: 2 yds Max Range: 10 yards RoF: 4*
(autofire) LR 6

ACCESSORIES: TL-12 Holocamera/recorder Wt: 5 lbs Vol: 0.1 cf Cost:$750
Power: neg. Pts: 0

POWER SYSTEMS: TL 9+ Fuel Cell, 0.31 kW output. Wt: 3.1 lbs, Vol: 0.06 cf,
Cost:$500
Fuel use: 0.005 gallons hydrogen per hour. LR 6 Points: 0 (special
disadvantage: air breather)

Energy Bank for Laser Torch: Rechargaable C cell. Stored power: 5400 kWs
Wt:1 lb Vol: 0.01 cf, Cost: $100 Pts: 20

FUEL TANKS: 0.12 gallon Self-sealing fuel tank for hydrogen fuel Wt: 0.18
lbs Vol: 0.004 cf, Cost: $5 (weight includes weight of fuel)

ENDURANCE: 24 hours

BODY AND SUBASSEMBLIES; Two arms (one left side, one right side), head, two
legs.

VOLUME OF SUBASSEMBLIES:
Left Arm: houses 1 arm motor (0.011 cf) plus 0.189 cf empty space Total: 0.2
cf
Right Arm: houses 1 arm motor (0.011 cf), laser torch (0.05 cf) Power cell
(0.01 cf) plus 0.03 cf empty space. Total: 0.2 cf
Head: houses brain (0.1 cf), Sensors (0.005 cf), Communications (0.0045 cf),
Holorecorder (0.1 cf) plus 0.0905 cf empty space. Total: 0.3 cf
Body: Houses Head rotation space (0.03 cf), Fuel Cell (0.06 cf), Fuel Tank
(0.004 cf), plus 1.906 cf empty space. Total: 2 cf
Legs: each houses half of the leg drivetrain (0.03 cf each) plus 0.57 cf
empty space. Total: 0.6 per leg.

SURFACE AREA: Arms: 2.5 sf each; Head: 3 sf; Body: 10 sf; legs: 5 sf each.
Total Surface Area: 20.5 sf.

STRUCTURE: TL-12 extra-heavy frame, standard materials Wt: 41 lbs. Cost:
$10.250
(note: I increaed the frame strength to extra-heavy to try to get him up to
something approaching a normal human weight.)

HIT POINTS: Body 45, Head 16, Arms: 28, Legs 28

ARMOR: PD1 DR1 non-rigid armor Wt: 0.16 lbs, Cost: $16 LR 6 Pts: 10

BIOMORPHICS: Realistic Flesh Wt: 10.25 lbs Cost: $8,200

SURFACE FEATURES: Surface Sensors Cost: $250; Sealed Body Cost: $820

STATISTICS: Design Weight: 70.5 lbs Loaded Weight: same plus carried gear
Volume: 3.9 cf approximate height: 6 feet, 6 inches
Strength: Body ST 13, Arm ST 11 Cost: 20 pts.
Dexterity: 14 Cost: 45 pts.
Intelligence: 10 Cost: 0 pts.
Health: 12 Extra Hit Points: 33 Cost: 165 points.
Ground Speed: 9 yards per second Pts: 15
Legality Rating: 5
Point Cost: Model Cost 370 pts. Programming Cost: 2 points Total Cost: 372
points.
Total Cost: $1, 914, 250.50 (Mcr 1.9)

PROGRAMS INFO
Literacy (Complexity 2) $250
Full Personality Simulation (includes Curious disadvantage) (Complexity 5)
LC: 6 $5,000
First Aid-14 (Complexity 3) $1,000
Language: Aslan-13 (Complexity 3) $1,000
Piloting (Contrgrav Vehicle)-12 (Complexity 1) $250 each
         (Spacecraft)-12 (Complexity 1)
Beam Weapons (Laser)-14 (Complexity 3) $1,000
Utility Programs:
Data Recovery $25
Voiceprint Recognition $1,250
Programs Total Cost: $9800 (included in total cost above)


Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:33:37 -0500
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Hydrographics

> What's the chance that every drop of water on this 
> hydrographic-0 planet accumulated in one place?

The small amount of water on a hydro-0 planet may 
be concentrated in a polar ice cap.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:36:07 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Planetary Hydrographics

Paul Schirf wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
> What's the chance that every drop of water on this 
> hydrographic-0 planet accumulated in one place?

The small amount of water on a hydro-0 planet may 
be concentrated in a polar ice cap.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That will happen, on colder worlds or worlds with trace or no
atmospheres. Even Mars doesn't keep all it's water in the
polar caps, though.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 08:28:26 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: FASA Deckplans

At 09:13 AM 12/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>><< I'm going to scream.  I posted a request to the list a month ago
>> asking if anyone knew who owns the Seeker rights and all I got was a
>> run-around.  Here we go again!
>>  >>
>>
>>Ask Marc Miller. He knows the guy. I think his name is Ed Sanders and he
>>owns
>>the DGP stuff too...
>
>It's PAUL Sanders that owns the DGp stuff, and if he also owns the Seeker
>copyrights then you're almost certainly out of luck. He hasn't been very
>good at releasing anything he owns the rights to (in spite of many plans,
>nothing ever gets published).

Ok - time to squelch some grossly inaccurate rumors :)

I do NOT own any rights to the DGP or Seeker material! To the best of my
knowledge, Roger Sanger still owns the rights to the DGP material, and he
was - last I heard - also attempting to buy the rights for the Seeker
material from Steve Green (I've no idea if he ever managed to get his
grubby hands on the Seeker material).

I will say this though - based on past experience with Roger, you haven't a
snowball's chance of getting his permission for using the Seeker material
if he does indeed own it without paying through the nose. But there is no
harm in trying, and good luck ;) 

>If you _do_ manage to contact him, could you ask him when he plans on
>paying me the money DGP owes me?

Heh - you need to talk to Roger, not me about this. I've only communicated
with Roger a couple of times, the last time being nearly two years ago.
Another point that strikes me - if a person buys the copyright to a
company's material I do not think they also assume the previous owners
outstanding debts ;)  If the old DGP owes you money, I'd say you need to
contact Joe Fugate, not Roger or whoever presently owns the copyright.

Cordially,
Paul Sanders
Clans MacAlasdair, Comyn, and O'Delany

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:00:53 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:23:10 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)


Maybe it's time to lobby Loren to put out some errata...
I have an idea. How about we assume current GT armor is equivelent to
Striker
low tech armor. I remember it was MUCH denser than the TL15 super-dooper
stuff. I suggest (if GT mechanics allow it that is...) that we make high
tech
armor much less dense (though probably retain current volume). That should
fix
this problem.
*****************************
you could always build the ship with advanced metal instead of standard
metal.  I have to crunch a few mor numbers before I become convinsed there
is a problem.

I have to run a capital ship battle as well...and see how much the extra HP
help out.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:14:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: DGP & Paul Sanders (was Re:FASA Deckplans)

- ---Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca> wrote:
> ><< I'm going to scream.  I posted a request to the list a month ago
> > asking if anyone knew who owns the Seeker rights and all I got was a
> > run-around.  Here we go again!
> >  >>
> >
> >Ask Marc Miller. He knows the guy. I think his name is Ed Sanders
and he owns the DGP stuff too...
> 
> It's PAUL Sanders that owns the DGp stuff, and if he also owns the
Seeker copyrights then you're almost certainly out of luck. He hasn't
been very good at releasing anything he owns the rights to (in spite
of many plans, nothing ever gets published).
> 
> If you _do_ manage to contact him, could you ask him when he plans on
> paying me the money DGP owes me?

Alright, this is where we were before.  This Sanders fellow has
purchased what's left of DGP, Seeker and FASA Traveller stuff (and
maybe more).  Now he is hiding from his creditors (been there, done
that) and ducking flame-o-grams from Traveller people everywhere. 
Fine.  Does anyone have any idea how to get in touch with him?  I'm
not a creditor nor do I want the rights to publish his stuff anywhere.
 Not that anyone could, anyway!



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1257
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Subj:	Traveller-digest V1998 #1258
Date:	12/10/98 5:02:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
From:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
Reply-to:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM


Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 10 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1258



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: T5 Material - A question.
Re: T5 Material - A question.
Apologies to Paul (was: FASA Deckplans)
Re: DGP & Paul Sanders (was Re:FASA Deckplans)
Re: It _really_ IS Yanks in Space ...;-)
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Extended Duration Survey Vehicle
Subject: Possible solution to the armor problem
Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
Re: Mostly power systems
Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)
Re: T5 Material - A question.
Re: FASA Deckplans
re: High Guard: looking for errata/changes
Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
Uh?
[none]
[none]
Testing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:24:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Material - A question.

Ask Marc directly <FarFuture@aol.com>

- ---cjbrain <cjbrain@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> Where can I find the draft T5 stuff? Is it available for download or
must I
> get put on a list somewhere?
> 
> 

==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:24:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Material - A question.

Ask Marc directly <FarFuture@aol.com>

- ---cjbrain <cjbrain@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> Where can I find the draft T5 stuff? Is it available for download or must I
> get put on a list somewhere?
> 
> 

==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:36:12 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Apologies to Paul (was: FASA Deckplans)

Sanders <timmon@primenet.com> writes:

>>It's PAUL Sanders that owns the DGp stuff, and if he also owns the Seeker
>>copyrights then you're almost certainly out of luck. He hasn't been very
>>good at releasing anything he owns the rights to (in spite of many plans,
>>nothing ever gets published).
>
>Ok - time to squelch some grossly inaccurate rumors :)
>
>I do NOT own any rights to the DGP or Seeker material! To the best of my
>knowledge, Roger Sanger still owns the rights to the DGP material, and he
>was - last I heard - also attempting to buy the rights for the Seeker
>material from Steve Green (I've no idea if he ever managed to get his
>grubby hands on the Seeker material).
>
>I will say this though - based on past experience with Roger, you haven't a
>snowball's chance of getting his permission for using the Seeker material
>if he does indeed own it without paying through the nose. But there is no
>harm in trying, and good luck ;) 

Oh God, I knew that. I should learn not to email when I have two people
asking me separate questions at the same time. 

>
>>If you _do_ manage to contact him, could you ask him when he plans on
>>paying me the money DGP owes me?
>
>Heh - you need to talk to Roger, not me about this. I've only communicated
>with Roger a couple of times, the last time being nearly two years ago.

Yeh, I know.  Thinking "Roger", writing "Paul".

Paul, I'm REALLY sorry about this.  I saw a "Saunders", and replied
without stopping to think for a minute.  In no way did I mean to impune
your reputation.  

To everyone tuning in late: Paul Saunders is the chap who's bringing the
the "lost" Keith supplements back to life. (A great deal, BTW. Email him
for details if you haven't already heard of them. I've ordered the full
set.)  While I _wish_ he was able to do the same with the DGP material,
that is (as he has pointed out) Roger Sanger's affair.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:40:28 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: DGP & Paul Sanders (was Re:FASA Deckplans)

Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com> writes:
>Alright, this is where we were before.  This Sanders fellow has
>purchased what's left of DGP, Seeker and FASA Traveller stuff (and
>maybe more).  Now he is hiding from his creditors (been there, done
>that) and ducking flame-o-grams from Traveller people everywhere. 
>Fine.  Does anyone have any idea how to get in touch with him?  I'm
>not a creditor nor do I want the rights to publish his stuff anywhere.
> Not that anyone could, anyway!

My mistake. The fellow in question is "Sanger", not "Sanders". Similar
names, and both dealing in old Traveller material, but:

Roger Sanger is sitting on the DGP copyrights, having purchased the
company. Which is his right, but the least he could do is honour DGP's
outstanding debts (like Joe Fugate did).

Paul Sanders is bringing the "lost" Keith supplements back to life, and in
no way deserves the slur I made by mixing him up with Roger. AFAIK, no one
has had any trouble buying items from Paul, and we owe him a vote of
thanks for rescuing unpublished material from obscurity.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 08:48:05 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: It _really_ IS Yanks in Space ...;-)

Yep, we've even gotten a working Jump Drive from that Vilani ship that 
crashed in the Nevada desert......

Fnord

JimC

- ----Original Message Follows----
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 13:42:05 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: It _really_ IS Yanks in Space ...;-)
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

See:

http://www.usmint.gov/dollarcoin/122.cfm

(one of the proposed designs for the reverse of the new dollar coin...)

Sure looks like the Imperial Sunburst back there...;-P

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:17:34 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

>>>>
Now let's consider the trip time. 40 AU is 6 billion km. Or 6 trillion
(6e12) meters.

D=.5*a*t^2
3e12 = .5 * (1/50 * 10) * T^2
3e12 = .5 * .2 * T^2
3e12 = .1 * T^2
3e13 = T^2
T = 5477225.575 sec

That's time to halfway. Doubling it gives: 10954451.15 sec

That's 126.8 days. 

Only problem is, if you work out the fuel consumption, you'll find that
even with ion drive, the required fuel would be prohibitive.

So you are either boosting *much* more slowly, or doing so intermittently. 
>>>>

126.8 days is very quick for TL8 (current) tech.  Since you _are_
talking about a large mass (or a series of smaller masses) of bulk
non-perishable material, you don't _need_ a fast orbit.  It would be
perfectly ok to set that 20km chunk on a much slower orbit.  Lets try
5 years.  With a 5 yr orbit (using the same equation, since I don't
have my physics book with me), you would need an acceleration of only
about 1.2E-4.  That's more than two orders of magnitude lower (and
takes a lot less fuel).  Wrap a reflective blanket around it and you
won't get much more sublimation than with your 1/3 yr orbit.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:26:55 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Extended Duration Survey Vehicle

Nice post, Allen, but what's its tech level?

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:58:37 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Subject: Possible solution to the armor problem

Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 23:29:04 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Possible solution to the armor problem
I have a possible solution to the situation with GURPS Traveller starship
armor. It is based on the precedence used for reactionless thrusters. I'm
not sure of the math involved; that I will leave to others. My idea is to
move higher tech armor down on the tech level scale for GT. The
number-crunchers can figure out exactly what the changes should be :) The
big question is: would the Powers That Be open to such an alteration?
*****************8
I dont think that such a move would be neccesary, a battlesuit can be built
that can take a direct hit from a ship laser.  The problem with Grave Tanks
is the oppisite, you can make tanks practicly immune to fusion gun fire
(the wonders of contragrav).  how about you and i get together on IRC some
night (after I get then new computer all set up that is) and try out those
AHLs you did, I suspect that they have enough HP to make the combat
reasonable. (we can even use those zho cruisers I did for Aliens I as
opfor).

up for it?

And I will be giving that GT ship design class on the 10th for those
interested.

about 8 EST. undernet #traveller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:00:56 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:25:23 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
What problem are we talking about?  (I haven't been following
the discussion).
****************
that the armor may be underballanced against PA Spinal Mounts.  don't know
for sure, but without trying a combat between capital ships we won't know.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:39:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Mostly power systems

Ian or Katts writes:
> 
> As dampers are TL12, I can see the damper-assisted gas core fission reactor
> being an engineering curiousity - why not just use the small TL12 fusion
> plants ?

Depends what minimum size is.  Minimum viable size for damper-assist fission is
pretty much the minimum size of a damper (whatever that is), even a moderately
capable damper could probably make do with a reaction mass of no more than a
couple of _grams_ (of highly enriched uranium).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:35:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem

Allen Shock writes:
> I have a possible solution to the situation with GURPS Traveller starship
> armor. It is based on the precedence used for reactionless thrusters. I'm
> not sure of the math involved; that I will leave to others. My idea is to
> move higher tech armor down on the tech level scale for GT. The
> number-crunchers can figure out exactly what the changes should be :) The
> big question is: would the Powers That Be open to such an alteration?

_NOT_ a good idea.  Trust me.  The problem is that as vehicles get larger,
weapon penetration goes up faster than armor values.  Small vehicles tend to be
invulnerable beachballs from hell as it is, GT armor is in fact substantially
better than _any_ armor available in any other version of traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:27:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser (my version) (LONG)

Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
 
> Maybe it's time to lobby Loren to put out some errata...
> 
> I have an idea. How about we assume current GT armor is equivelent to
> Striker low tech armor. I remember it was MUCH denser than the TL15
> super-dooper stuff. I suggest (if GT mechanics allow it that is...) that we
> make high tech armor much less dense (though probably retain current
> volume). That should fix this problem.

Short answer: GT 'expensive metal' at TL 12 is, weight for weight, 15x stronger
than steel.  'advanced metal' is 24x stronger.  Bonded superdense is, weight
for weight, 7.5x stronger than steel.  There really isn't a need to push this
further....
GT makes no statements about the actual density of metal armor.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:33:15 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T5 Material - A question.

In a message dated 12/8/98 10:29:39 AM Central Standard Time,
swordworlder@yahoo.com writes:

<< > Where can I find the draft T5 stuff? Is it available for download or
 must I get put on a list somewhere? >>

At various times, I have posted the availablilty of Draft T5 material. Those
topics have included

Character Generation
Tasks and Skills
Starports

Each is a large Zip file containing several (many) Word For Windows 95 files.

You can request these files with an email to

FarFuture@AOL.com


Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:28:11 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: FASA Deckplans

In a message dated 12/8/98 8:15:52 AM Central Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< I posted a request to the list a month ago
 > asking if anyone knew who owns the Seeker rights and all I got was a
 > run-around. >>

My understanding is this:

DGP sold their rights to Paul Sanger (Seattle). He also picked up the FASA
material, and he may have the Seeker material.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:49:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: High Guard: looking for errata/changes

Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>wrote:

>I'm looking for errata or additions or changes for High Guard;
>please e-mail me off the list, since HG seems to be out of favor.

I've seen more HG on the list in the last two months than any time in the
last two years (except maybe in the Fighters Flamefest). I'd be interested
in seeing any errata.

Did you catch my HG fusion rocket post?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:47:30 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>What problem are we talking about?  (I haven't been following
>the discussion).

I *thought* the number of TML digests had dropped ;-)

IIRC it's the fact that armour values in GT aren't compatible or equivalent
to HG for ships such as the AHL.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:51:16 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Uh?

>It's PAUL Sanders that owns the DGp stuff, and if he also owns the Seeker
>copyrights then you're almost certainly out of luck. He hasn't been very
>good at releasing anything he owns the rights to (in spite of many plans,
>nothing ever gets published).
>
>If you _do_ manage to contact him, could you ask him when he plans on
>paying me the money DGP owes me?

Isn't it Roger Sanders?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:53:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [none]

The real Paul Sanders wrote:

>Heh - you need to talk to Roger, not me about this. I've only communicated
>with Roger a couple of times, the last time being nearly two years ago.
>Another point that strikes me - if a person buys the copyright to a
>company's material I do not think they also assume the previous owners
>outstanding debts ;)  If the old DGP owes you money, I'd say you need to
>contact Joe Fugate, not Roger or whoever presently owns the copyright.

Hmm.... unless he bought DGP as a going concern in which case he owes Rob.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:58:28 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [none]

>Alright, this is where we were before.  This Sanders fellow has
>purchased what's left of DGP, Seeker and FASA Traveller stuff (and
>maybe more).  Now he is hiding from his creditors (been there, done
>that) and ducking flame-o-grams from Traveller people everywhere.
>Fine.  Does anyone have any idea how to get in touch with him?  I'm
>not a creditor nor do I want the rights to publish his stuff anywhere.
> Not that anyone could, anyway!

Paul Sanders has the Keith Bros material IIRC.

Roger Sanger has the DGP material and won't release it, not unless you pay
him silly money. He has a reputation of starting many projects that come to
nothing.... If you read between the lines of the IG material published you
may get the impression that the books were written to stop Roger ever
releasing his material successfully(*). But there again, I could be cynical.

(*) Emperor's Vehicles / 101 Vehicles (DGP), M0 Vland material / Vilani and
Vargr (DGP), the planned Aliens books..... Personally, I feel his sitting
on the material is a travesty, but that's his perogative.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:57:35 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@tansoft.com>
Subject: Testing

We lost a DEC Alpha (CPU board failure) which was providing us with our
main name serving.  For some reason the mailing list box didn't like the
new name server.  

If this works, we should be back in business.

Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1258
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 10 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1259



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Testing again
Testing
Test
testing 2
subsricption
testing for echo...
Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
Re: Test
Re: FASA Deckplans
Quiet...
Contragrav Tables for FFS1
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1248
Re: High Guard: looking for errata/changes
List Down again?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1245
Neologism
Design Worksheets, Rules, et cetera
(Traveller) Blade Miniatures Question
AND missile drive
Please read, having problems.
G-forces in a crash
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: 
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Al Morai F4?
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: Discount for items of unknown origin
Re: AND powered missiles
RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #1257
Still looking
Re: Two parsec jump 
Keith Supplements - 2nd to last update 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:34:45 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@tansoft.com>
Subject: Testing again

This is a test.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:22:53 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@tansoft.com>
Subject: Testing

I didn't receive any messages over night and the queues seem to be
operating ok, so lets just test things.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:32:57 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@tansoft.com>
Subject: Test

I'm having some name serving problems right now.  Hopefully this will work.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:49:01 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@tansoft.com>
Subject: testing 2

This is a test.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:11:01 EST
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: subsricption

andreas reimer
Unsubscribe traveller digest

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:09:27 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: testing for echo...

Nothing from this list today. Anyone home?

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:51:09 +0000
From: David Scott <d.scott@ic.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem

Hi,

Excuse my ignorance but can't we just have a table of equivilants eg

DR2000 = Megatraveller 100 and fudge it a bit or am I being a bit naive.

David

David Scott, Explainer, National Museum of Science & Industry.
mailto:d.scott@nmsi.ac.uk
http://www.nmsi.ac.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 06:20:38 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Test

Testing the TML connection.
It's been awfully quite lately.
Did the 'Virus' knock it out? or Pirates? 
or a Doomsday asteroid travelling at C+.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:32:45 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: FASA Deckplans

In a message dated 12/8/98 7:31:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
timmon@primenet.com writes:

<< I do NOT own any rights to the DGP or Seeker material! To the best of my
 knowledge, Roger Sanger still owns the rights to the DGP material,  >>

Sorry;

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 06:56:16 -1000
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iName.com>
Subject: Quiet...

Has something happened to the list, or are we just going through a quiet
patch (that would be a change :)...

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:12:26 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Contragrav Tables for FFS1

Hi all.  I recently got hold of a copy of FFS1, and have noticed that 
the tables for contragrav design are missing.  Does anyone have or know 
of any errata that might include this?

JimC

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:25:40 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1248

In a message dated 12/8/98 12:20:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
wmacdude@concentric.net writes:

<<  How 'bouts 2 days, then 3 graves, every week, with a full school load.
  >>

that's a good one....:-(. Look on the bright side. You scientists (when you
graduate) will make a lot more moola then this liberal arts wienie...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:28:12 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: High Guard: looking for errata/changes

In a message dated 12/8/98 12:32:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dmckinne@itds.com writes:

<< I'm looking for errata or additions or changes for High Guard;
 please e-mail me off the list, since HG seems to be out of favor.
  >>

which edition; first or second? (hint; 1st has 10 ton bays and no
battleriders. I use 2nd)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:40:43 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: List Down again?

Hi folks,
i didnt get any TML- messages lately. 
Is the list down?
Please someone tell me per private mail if this is not so...
Volker
- ---
Volker A. Greimann, greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:44:11 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1245

In a message dated 12/5/98 14:58:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, ianw@orac.net.au
writes:

<<  In our one-shot-shipwrecker (OSSW)
 >discussion, can one battery of lasers engage an infinite number of missiles?
>>

	Not necessarily an infinite number...but the nuclear damper will most likely
stop all your OSSW's (part of the prob of relying on nuclear warheads :-(  )

	DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:25:36 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Neologism

Submitted for your consideration:

"credhead (kred'-hed) n., a person who exhibits an interest (perhaps
excessive) in the detailed workings of trade, commerce, and economics.
(English, conflation of "credit", a unit of exchange, and "gearhead",
q.v.)"

For the Unpublished, Unauthorized Glossary of Travellerisms and Other
Trivia, 5641 Ed.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:24:32 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Design Worksheets, Rules, et cetera

Folks, please remember that not everybody's news/mail readers
support tabs properly, and may not use the same tab stops if they
do.  Please set your composer to substitute spaces for tabs if
you can, or put the spaces in yourself.  I can't tell you how
many worksheets and so on have been spoiled into unreadability.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:14:57 -0500
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: (Traveller) Blade Miniatures Question

Hi,
	Does anyone (especially those of you in the U.K.) know who owned Blade
Miniatures?  The company is out of business, but the molds may still be
around.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

	BTW: Blade miniatures made a great line of (20mm) sci-fi figures, which
also included a good selection of Vargr type items.

	Please respond to:
	Scott Spieker
	scspieker@ncweb.com

Thanks in advance,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:24:14 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: AND missile drive

>AND is the Advanced Nuclear Drive, a low-efficiency/high-
>performance lightweight fusion rocket, using tritium-
>enriched heavy water, for use in missiles. The  exhaust
>(and the whole engine after more than a few seconds of
>firing) is moderately radioactive

In hindsight, this might be better technobabbled as a nuclear salt water
rocket - one in which fission occurs in uranium salts dissolved in water,
heating the water as exhaust. The performance specs for AND are 
actually pretty reasonable for such a rocket. OF course, then the
exhaust moves from "moderately radioactive" to "extremely radioactive",
but performance/price/etc. don't change. 

In T5, AND might be a fusion+ - related technology...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:52:39 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Please read, having problems.

This is a test. If anybody ends up reading this on the Traveller Mailing
List, please drop me an e-mail. I would appreciate it. From where I'm
sitting, it looks like the list is down :-(

Thanks

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:19:55 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: G-forces in a crash

Someone asked not too long ago about survivable G-loads during a crash
sequence; I found these while studying. Apologies to whichever list this
did not appear in -- I simply can't remember.

Human tolerance limits for whole body impact (duration 0.1 second):

Inertial vector crash, with:

Forward seating (with shoulder belts)		40g
Forward seating (lapbelt only)			27g (maximum of 0.002 second)
Rearward seating				80g
Sideward seating				9g

Inertial vector ejection:

Upward						20g
Downward					15g

Source: US Army Field Manual 1-301, Aeromedical Training for Flight
Personnel, May 1987.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:58:29 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In a message dated 12/6/98 6:39:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, eptitu@utu.fi
writes:

<< > But the avialable sources may take *years* to reach. Figure out how
 > long it takes to get to Pluto (inner edge of the Kuiper Belt) *without*
 > using jump. 
 
  Then why go there without jump? I have seen no canonical references
 forbidding an insystem jump. Even if the microjump takes the standard
 week you'd save some major time, and since fuel consumption _does_ depend
 on distance, youd probably save a lot of fuel too.
  >>

	Perhaps because the original thrust of the post (as I understood it anyway)
was that you had no jump fuel left and were trying to refuel again, and what
if the Oort cloud was the only spot to refuel from?

	DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:16:39 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: 

SD Mooney wrote:

> The real Paul Sanders wrote:
>
> >Heh - you need to talk to Roger, not me about this. I've only communicated
> >with Roger a couple of times, the last time being nearly two years ago.
> >Another point that strikes me - if a person buys the copyright to a
> >company's material I do not think they also assume the previous owners
> >outstanding debts ;)

That is correct.  The proceeds from the sale of the copyright should be
used to satisfy debts.

>  If the old DGP owes you money, I'd say you need to
> >contact Joe Fugate, not Roger or whoever presently owns the copyright.
>
> Hmm.... unless he bought DGP as a going concern in which case he owes Rob.

If the purchaser of DGP assumed the outstanding debts at the time.
(Usually done but not always).  And it depends on what form of
business organization DGP is, i.e., corporation, partnership, proprietorship.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:06:24 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Joseph Kimball wrote:

> 126.8 days is very quick for TL8 (current) tech.  Since you _are_
> talking about a large mass (or a series of smaller masses) of bulk
> non-perishable material, you don't _need_ a fast orbit.  It would be
> perfectly ok to set that 20km chunk on a much slower orbit.  Lets try
> 5 years.  With a 5 yr orbit (using the same equation, since I don't
> have my physics book with me), you would need an acceleration of only
> about 1.2E-4.  That's more than two orders of magnitude lower (and
> takes a lot less fuel).  Wrap a reflective blanket around it and you
> won't get much more sublimation than with your 1/3 yr orbit.
> - Joseph
> 
  Righto, and considering how much fuel you get from a 20km chunk you
could probably get away with even 10 or 20 year trajectories. All that
reflective foil and ion engines is going to take a _big_ ship to transport
to the comet, but you're not going to need very many of these. (Actually
finding the things can be done by normal seeker vessels as low risk
side-venture, for example.)

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:53:36 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Al Morai F4?

  For a company that already operates something like a sector-wide J-4
shipping network, adding a dozen or two couriers could make sense, so
here's a decent J-4 unit:

        F4      XP-1641441-000000-00000-0       MCr 73.8       100 tons
                                                                TL=15
                                                                Crew=1
        Cargo=18.5. Fuel=44. EP=4. Agility=1. Low=1.

  Fuel is for a full month, and a full stateroom is allocated; another 4 tons
of cargo could probably be scammed here. It could be armed if necessary, losing
2 tons of cargo and adding MCr 1.25 for a beam laser f-2 and sandcaster f-3;
pilots would need to be ex-fighter jocks to be trained for this.

  The cost of adding one Type MK would pay for 17-18 of these. Embarassingly,
they shouldn't work very well at all; their routes run right along the X-Boats,
so even skipping short stops they barely help, and they would be slower and
more expensive a way to connect any of the Big Four - the J-5+ designs already
explored would be much more competitive.

  Their only uses would be in carrying urgent cargo along company routes,
whether freight at KCr 5+/Dt, or spec cargo for company pursers.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:57:57 -0800
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

Joseph Kimball wrote:

> >>>>
> Now let's consider the trip time. 40 AU is 6 billion km. Or 6
> trillion
> (6e12) meters.
>
> D=.5*a*t^2
> 3e12 = .5 * (1/50 * 10) * T^2
> 3e12 = .5 * .2 * T^2
> 3e12 = .1 * T^2
> 3e13 = T^2
> T = 5477225.575 sec
>
> That's time to halfway. Doubling it gives: 10954451.15 sec
>
> That's 126.8 days.
>
> Only problem is, if you work out the fuel consumption, you'll find
> that
> even with ion drive, the required fuel would be prohibitive.
>
> So you are either boosting *much* more slowly, or doing so
> intermittently.
> >>>>
> 126.8 days is very quick for TL8 (current) tech.  Since you _are_
> talking about a large mass (or a series of smaller masses) of bulk
> non-perishable material, you don't _need_ a fast orbit.  It would be
> perfectly ok to set that 20km chunk on a much slower orbit.  Lets try
> 5 years.  With a 5 yr orbit (using the same equation, since I don't
> have my physics book with me), you would need an acceleration of only
> about 1.2E-4.  That's more than two orders of magnitude lower (and
> takes a lot less fuel).  Wrap a reflective blanket around it and you
> won't get much more sublimation than with your 1/3 yr orbit.
> - Joseph

I've found that by simply adjusting orbital speed, you can make a lot of
headway by letting the star's gravity drag it in.  Then you just put in a
few corrective burns and lock it into a lagrange point for convenient
access.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:52:54 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

Peter Newman wrote:
> In CT Adv 12, Secrets of the Ancients, there is a table giving
> specific depths within the gas giant that the lost Ancient city
> might be at & notes the atmospheric pressure at that depth.
> IIRC the table went up into the thousands of atmospheres.  One
> atmosphere (15 lbs psi) is about 10 tons per square meter.
> Therefore Traveller starships can descend to quite great depths
> in water.  My copy of Secrets of the Ancients was mislaid in my
> recent move, could someone please check this table.


Okay, according to that source ...

    Commercial vessels (traders, merchants, liners) can withstand
    up to 1000 degrees K and up to 1000 atmospheres.

    Military vessels can handle temperatures to  1500  degrees  K
    and pressures to 2000 atmospheres.  System defense boats  are
    specifically  constructed  to  handle  temperatures  to  2500
    degrees K and pressures to 3000 atmospheres.

    Suits: Special protective suits fail at 1000 degrees K or 400
    atmospheres.



Additionally,  it  states  for  a  gas  giant  with  a  72000  km
equitorial diameter ...

    Altitude  Pressure   Temp  Notes
    ------------------------------------
     38,000     vacuum      -  -
     37,000      trace    150  clouds
     36,000          1    300  clouds
     35,000        300  1,000
     34,000    100,000  2,000
     33,000    400,000  3,000  liquid H2



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - My Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:41:19 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Discount for items of unknown origin

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
...
>The current rules imply that the cost of an item for a starship is the
>same wether part of the starship or bought separately. You could assume

  Quite true, as just came up in ship discounting; the components must cost
less before installation than the 10% or 20% discounted cost that some ships
get; for heavy industrial gear sold in quantity assume 70%, perhaps.

...
>The problem is that you have goods of unknown age, origin and title.

  Unless the item is small enough to not have a serial # or other ID
then you need to sell to a fence or directly to an end-user who isn't
concerned with the items provenance. While the current functioning of
the gear can be largely determined by giving it a close examination,
there's still going to be a discount to cover possible unknown damage.

  So assume that cost of uninstalled components is 70% of installed list,
and a further 30% for undocumented goods* believed to be owned free and
clear; a belter mining operation might pay 50% of list. If they strongly
suspected that it was stolen (whether they ever expect to see an inspection
of any kind or not) then they may offer as little as they think they can
get away with and still get the gear.

 *assumes well-maintained/reconditioned equipment

  OC, as we're talking about stuff that really is stolen, then there's
clearly a support function for people who can (at least temporarily)
fake the papers to make hardware look like it's legal.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 08:08:29
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: AND powered missiles

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Mostly power systems
>
>>Andrew, Ditzie wants to know how you managed to build a reasonably-sized
>>TL11 missile. She cant manage it.
>
>TL Type       Thrust  Price   Fuel      Ftype
>               kn/m3  MCr/m3  m3/hr/kN
>10 AND        1,100    0.80   0.034     D/T water
>

OK. Assume we have 2 cm of crystaliron over an 8.4 m3 spherical missile.
Thats 0.4 m3 of crystaliron, for 4t.

Our target acceleration is 10 gees, and our 4 m3 warhead masses 4 tons as
well. Therefore we have 8 t of payload to push.

OK, lets add 200 kg of AND drive (220 kN). One hours fuel is thus 6.8 m3 of
DT water, or call it 7.25 t.

OK, we need to blow the size up to 11.2 m3, which means we need another 20%
armour, or another 0.8t.

We have now got a mass ranging between 9.0 and 16.25 t, and a thrust of 220
kilonewtons.

I dont think that cuts the mustard. If we double the thrust and take the
burn time down to 28 minutes or so, it's acceleration ranging between 3 and
5 gees as fuel burns, which is better.

But is 28 minutes burn time at an average of four gees enough to be useful
in combat, especially when you consider the missile has AF 20 and must thus
rely on dodging from laser fire.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 06:41:21 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #1257

Date:	Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:14:28 -0800 (PST)
From:	Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject:	Re: DGP & Paul Sanders (was Re:FASA Deckplans)

- - ---Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca> wrote:
> ><< I'm going to scream.  I posted a request to the list a month ago
> > asking if anyone knew who owns the Seeker rights and all I got was a
> > run-around.  Here we go again!
> >  >>
> >
> >Ask Marc Miller. He knows the guy. I think his name is Ed Sanders
and he owns the DGP stuff too...
>
> It's PAUL Sanders that owns the DGp stuff, and if he also owns the

Seeker copyrights then you're almost certainly out of luck. He hasn't been
very good at releasing anything he owns the rights to (in spite of many
plans, nothing ever gets published).

>
> If you _do_ manage to contact him, could you ask him when he plans on
> paying me the money DGP owes me?

Alright, this is where we were before.  This Sanders fellow has purchased
what's left of DGP, Seeker and FASA Traveller stuff (and maybe more).  Now
he is hiding from his creditors (been there, done that) and ducking
flame-o-grams from Traveller people everywhere.  Fine.  Does anyone have any
idea how to get in touch with him?  I'm not a creditor nor do I want the
rights to publish his stuff anywhere.  Not that anyone could, anyway!

I heard that he also has the missing evidence from the Kennedy shooting and
is responsible for fluoride being put in our water supplies.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 17:00:21 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Still looking

Still looking for a volunteer to write the second Alien races book for
GURPS Traveller. You do realize that you get _paid_ for doing this sort of
thing?      : )

Where are all the Aslan fans?



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:29:14 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump 

> > No, they're not.  And I'd guess that a good hot combat would be inherently 
> > *more* stressful than a skimming run.  There would be lots of jinking 
> > around, and inertial compensating is *not* part of the fuel tankage.  I saw 
> > a reference for that under CT, but
> >  I'll be damned if I can remember *where* I saw it.  This means that the 
> > fuel is going to be sloshing around all over the place, irregardless of any 
> > baffling.  If the tanks were so delicate that they couldn't survive a 
> > skimming run, then they wouldn't survive a combat.
> 
> The thing is, during combat the *only* "severe buffetting" that a ship
> will experience is transmitted shock waves from missile impacts, or
> chunks of armor exploding from beam hits. 
> 
> "Jinking" to make the ship harder to hit will be almost unnoticeable,
> as the ship's main engines are always pointing in much the same
> direction *relative to the hull*. You change the direction the ship is
> going by rotating it so the engines point in a different direction. 

You're still going to have tons of LHyd slamming against the walls of the 
tanks, and in the wrong direction from where the bracing is.  No intertial 
compensation inside the tanks, remember?

> The turning forces will be *less* than a g except on fighters. 
> 
> The forces encountered on gas giant skimming run are both a lot
> stronger *and* being aerodynamic rather than inertial, they will be in
> different directions and exerted at quite different points on the
> airframe. 

Which the hull will be braced to deal with.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 16:54:42 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Keith Supplements - 2nd to last update 

Ok TML'ers - only one week left to pre-order....and I need to post an
announcement stating that I am sold out of autographed copies. Any further
orders that arrive will be filled with un-autographed sets.

This effectively means I've hit the break-even point - so I will be
releasing the manuscripts for inclusion on Bryan Borich's Classic Traveller
CD if/when it comes out late next year (doesn't mean they become PD however).

Anyways - my thanks to everyone on the TML who have helped with and
supported this project  - wish me luck as I start the actual printing and
shipping of the supplements in the next four weeks.

Merry Christmas,
Paul Sanders

P.S. And let me say one last time (to stem the sudden flow of 'fan' mail) -
I am not, nor have I ever been, associated with the former vapor-ware
publisher known as Roger Sanger :)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1259
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 10 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1260



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sylean Battleship Refueling 
Re: Two parsec jump
Is TML down again???
RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #1257
BITS
Testing
Space Missile Design
Re: Subject: Possible solution to the armor problem
Re: Two parsec jump 
15mm Striker/Traveller figures for sale (RAFM & Martian Metals)
Re: G-forces in a crash
[www][zine] 09 Dec 1998 Freelance Traveller Updated!
Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: World Generation Program
Re: Testing strategy of FS' new Combat Helicopter
Re: Mostly power systems
Dirty Snowball Theory(Was: Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
re: Transporting Fuel In-System
Re: Two parsec jump 
Re: Fusion Plus Discussion
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Al Morai Type MK HG v1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:30:55 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship Refueling 

> Keven Pittsinger wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Just about everything in the old Supplement 9: Fighting Ships of the Imperium 
> is capable of skimming.  This includes the venerable 500 kton Tigress class 
> battleships.  Every capital ship mentioned has fuel scoops and integral 
> purification plants.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Not the _Arakoine_ class strike cruiser. This baby has a dispersed
> structure hull, no skimming for this ship. It does have fuel processors
> so it can take fuel skimmed by others.

I did *NOT* say *ALL* Supp9 ships could skim.  I said *JUST ABOUT* everything
could.  Learn to *READ* a post before replying to it, will you??

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:17:21 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump

In a message dated 12/6/98 19:21:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< 
 Under CT/HG, hulls are assumed to be rigid enough to handle an atmospheric 
 flight unless they're nonstreamlined.  Under CT/HG, even semistreamlined
hulls 
 can skim.  AHL's are considered semistreamlined.  So what's the problem?
  >>
	
	Would you care to be on an aircraft (such as the C-130's used as hurricane
hunters) flying right directly thru the eye of a catagory 5 storm?  It is
realitively (and I stress relatively) safe, as long as the A/C is in perfect
operating order.  Now...are you willing to try it in an A/C with a
malfunctioning engine? In a catagory 10 storm?  I would submit that taking a
large warship like the AHL into a GG atmosphere is an excercise in extreme
emergency.  If he's in that big of a hurry, he is trying to escape from
something or someone. "Meeting engagements" happen all the time, even in
space.  Maybe 2 fleets both pulled in at roughly thesame time, and steller
topography doesn't allow for a jump of 1 or 2 pcs, which is your reserve fuel.
Granted, the ships are "partially streamlined", but that does not mean that
they are recommended for rountine use in an atmosphere.

DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 12:25:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Is TML down again???

Hi all,

    Just d/l my mail and didn't see any of the usual digests for the list I normally get! :( Is the list down or do I have a subscription problem, again.
 Please reply PRI if you're getting this and it's my subscription problems.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:33:30 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #1257

I believe that there is a problem with the server, I have not received the
digest in two days now. Could someone contact me and let me know what's
happening, please?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 16:12:00 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: BITS

Gentles:

Those of you wanting to order BITS products from SJ Games will have to be
patient for a little longer. We will not have the products in stock until
early January, and we don't have them entered into the computer yet, so we
can't take advance orders just yet. I will make an official announcement as
soon as we can take orders for the booklets.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:33:13 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Testing

Hey is this thing working?

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:48:05 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Space Missile Design

Seeing the space missile discussion in the Power Systems thread made me
wonder - how different is the FF&S2 missile design system from that in FF&S1?

Also, Ian, what do you call a reasonable size for a space missile, and what
performance, etc would it need?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:00:53 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Subject: Possible solution to the armor problem

James Lowry <jlowry@tfb.com> on 12/10/98 02:10:07 AM

To:   Aerron Winsor/IAS
cc:
Subject:  Re: Subject: Possible solution to the armor problem




At 12:58 PM 12/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>And I will be giving that GT ship design class on the 10th for those
>interested.
>
>about 8 EST. undernet #traveller
>
        Sounds interesting.  However, I never IRC, and I didn't get this
till 9pm PST.  Not to be pushy, but could you provide an essay of the high
points?  I'd certainly be interested in any comments on the GT small craft
vs the Book 2 versions.  (Admittedly the GT versions seem to be more
logical....)
************8
I could have been cleared, 8pmEST and the 10th is today...it will be
logged, and go up on my website (as soon as I get around to making one),

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:03:11 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump 

> The AHL design does include  the external craft in the overall design
> volume AFAIK.  The idea being that you need to provide for them in the
> Jump field (none of the AHL external craft have Jump drives IIRC). 
> This would also be true for any other dispersed stucture ships.

Yeah, which is why they'd shed the external small craft before skimming.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:47:06 -0500
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: 15mm Striker/Traveller figures for sale (RAFM & Martian Metals)

	I am sorry for the useless hogging of bandwidth.  This is only an
announcement.  I have several different Sci-fi 15mm figures for sale or
trade.  I have 51 Rafm low tech infantry, 12 Martian Metals figures, and
106 Irregular Miniatures figures.  I also have two combat grav vehicles
(sleds), one grav tank, and two armored cars with double barreled pintel
mounted guns.  All of the vehicles have crew figures (except the tank).

	The whole lot can go for $50.00 US, or traded for other items of interest
listed below:

Want List:
20mm Blade Miniatures Sci-Fi figures (any condition)
25mm Ground Zero Games figures (Star Grunt)
15mm Fantasy figures (Orcs, Lizard men, Elves, you make the call)
15, 20, or 25mm terrain pieces (bunkers, buildings, vehicles, etc.)

Traveller items (to many to list here, but if you are willing to part with
them, give me a list).

Make me an offer!

Please respond privately to:
Scott Spieker
scspieker@ncweb.com

Thank you,
Scott

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:02:10 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: G-forces in a crash

> From: Jim Johnstone <JimJ@visio.com>
> To: 'thrash@io.com'; traveller@mpgn.com; GURPSnet-l@lists.io.com
> Subject: RE: G-forces in a crash
> Date: Wednesday, 09 December, 1998 13:29 PM
> 
> I don't get this...  G forces generated in a crash would be based on the
> difference in velocity (pre and post crash) and the time over which this
> deceleration/acceleration occurred.
> 
> Was this some data regarding a particular helicopter auto rotating in?
> 

No, these are: 

>> Human tolerance limits for whole body impact (duration 0.1 second):
> 

as stated. That is, these are the maximum g-loads that a human body can
sustain in each of the listed directions during a crash sequence without
serious injury. Any g-load in excess of these figures (either magnitude or
duration) will result in damage. 

A complete crash sequence consists of a series of these acute g-load
events, as individual parts of the structure buckle and give way. 

I provided this data in response to an earlier question about human
limitations.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:24:11 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [www][zine] 09 Dec 1998 Freelance Traveller Updated!

The big story is the inclusion of Robert O'Connor's rules for
medicine in Traveller.  This large series of articles covers all
aspects of medicine in Traveller, from first aid in the field
(after catching that bullet with your name on it) to long-term
mental illness, not forgetting things like the medical problems
associated with extremes of climate, drugs, poisons, radiation,
...  All in all, a quite comprehensive set of articles.

Other than that, a minor update to the FAQ, some link updates,
and more software in the Computer Connection rounds out the
changes to Freelance Traveller this time around.

Our next update will please Traveller fans whose _second_
language is English - We've found a translating program free on
the Web that appears to do a better job than AltaVista's
BabelFish, and in more languages.  Feedback would be appreciated
as to which languages we should support first.

Freelance Traveller can always be found at
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:34:20 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

At 00:07 8/12/98 -0500, Thad Coons wrote:

>  Like I said...IMTU the TL-11 Sylean predecessor to the
>Coronation class battleship and the Heavy Cruiser that goes with
>it a) don't HAVE multi-g maneuver drives, and b) weren't
>designed to either land or imitate a submarine.  
>   (My poor TL-8 or so mind compares a 50+ kdton ship to a
>several story office building with no foundation and boggles at
>the notion of ever beaching the thing and still keeping it
>spaceworthy.)

I always assumed that with a ship of any size you wouldn't trun the C-G
systems off while on the ground, so that in fact only a small portion of
the ships actual weight in on the ground, with the C-G taking the rest.
Mind you I use TNE where merely nullifies gravitational attraction, so all
you need to do is turn the power down until you have the desired amount of
nullification and voila! you're down.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 23:44:46 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: World Generation Program

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
To: 'Traveller Mailing List' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 12:21 AM
Subject: World Generation Program


>I'm publishing my 'first' VB app - a traveller world generation program.
> World Generation is done according to the T4 rules, the Extended UWP
>according to the blurb on it found in Pocket Empires (but not the PE
>economic extensions...at least not yet).  I dropped back to CT for the
>System Generation rules - I may eventually re-write it for MT, but not at
>the moment.
>
Douglas,

I've tried the progam. Concidering my knowledge of VB is nil, it seems to
have worked fine for me. The only suggestion I can give at this time would
be to add some way to save or print the output. I've used a screen capture
to print out several, it works ok, but it's a bit cumbersome. An internal
printing option would be nice.

Mike Peters, Letterworks@CITnet.com
webpage:"Jump Point" http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's
sake. The great affair is to move."
Robert Louis Stevenson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:45:25 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Testing strategy of FS' new Combat Helicopter

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
> >From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
> >Subject: Re: Quiet advice re Ditzie
> >
> >In message <3.0.5.16.19981206221211.4ff78280@mail.orac.net.au>, Ian or
> >Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> writes
> >>#2, she works in Famile Spofulam's High Energy Solutions division, and is
> >>currently working on a Plasma Chain Gun, to go in the chin turret of the
> >>new TL12 Combat Helicopter. The helicopter's main gun is a 100 MJ plasma
> >>gun, that should be capable of penetrating 40 cm of superdense.
> >
> >How fast does the helo fly backwards when when the main gun fires?
> 
> Weeeee arent absolutely-wabsolutely sure yet.
> 
> Weee are goanna goanna goanna breadboard a model-wodel, then wewewewe are
> goanna buildie-wuildie a test model, then then then we're goanna-wonna
> write up the testing-westing weports, then we're goanna-wonna sell a batch
> of half a dozen to some groooooound-pounders with incompetant-wompetant
> laaaaaaawyers, an an an then we seeeee how well they urkie-workie ...
> 
> *manic giggling*
> 
> Ditzie

Have you considered a Janus-style mount?  If you set it to fire
fore-and-aft simultaneously, you might be able to get the recoil to
cancel out.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:55:36 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Mostly power systems

At 23:11 8/12/98 +1300, Andrew wrote:
>
>>From the errata sheet:
>Table 167: Nuclear Rockets
>Replace the current table with the following:
>
>TL Type       Thrust  Price   Fuel      Ftype
>               kn/m3  MCr/m3  m3/hr/kN
>7  NTR           80    8.00   5.94      LHyd
>8  NTR          100   10.00   5.90      LHyd
>8  AdvNTR       120   12.00   4.17      LHyd
>9  GCNTR         50   16.67   2.52      LHyd
>9  Exp. Fusion   30    3.50   0.0072    LHyd
>9  Fusion        90    0.35   0.0035    LHyd
>10 AND        1,100    0.80   0.034     D/T water

Does the Fusion drive still have a minimum size? IN FF&S1 it had a minimum
thrust of 100 tons, giving a minimum volume of 11.1111 m^3 and a mass of
11.111 tons. Until their fuel consumption was worsend by a factor of ten
(making it worse than HEPlaR0 they were wonderful for long duration burns,
if you could afford the price. I always liked the idea of fusion rockets
for cruising, with HEPlaR for high acceleration bursts (running them off
the power from the fusion rockets). But I hear that that doesn't work
anymore :(

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:35:26 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Dirty Snowball Theory(Was: Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

At 06:20 AM 12/8/98 EST, you wrote:
>> > Some planets in Traveller (Vland for ex) have been using jump drives for
>over
>> > 11,000 years.  Would that be enough for a noticible dent to the
>hydrosphere?
>> > Lhyd is also used in grav vehicles, planetary power grids, robots, etc as
>> > well as starship and military uses.  Thanks alot.  Quite informative.
>> 
>> Sit down and do the math. You'll find that it'll take quite a bit to
>> make a noticeable dent in a planetary hydrosphere. Planets are *huge*.
>
>You're right, of course.  I'm not concerned about the oceans drying up or
>anything but more about incidental ecological effects of removing and not
>replacing the water.  But it is relatively insignificant amounts, and there
>could well be methods for replacing it, i suppose.
>
>
>Gary
>
Heard somewhere, probably another Discovery Channel episode, concerning a
theory that a large percentage of the earth's water came from mini - comets
that are still hitting our planet everyday.

IF this theory is true (have heard there is now evidence to this), how much
water do these snowballs add to the hydrosphere, and would they replace
water fast enough to make depletion due to planetary negligable?

Also note... someone else posted that for earth, even if everyone had 100d
seekers and refueled weekly, it would take milenia for even the smallest
impact on the hydrosphere. If this is the case, then these snowballs may
counteract this.

<dangerous brainstorm>
What about refilling the source? Could a world go out and grab something
the size of Hale - Bop and replenish the water source?
</dangerous brainstorm> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:25:14 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Transporting Fuel In-System

At 01:01 PM 08/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
>At 12:23 07/12/1998 -0400, misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca wrote:
>>        Ok, so here's a TL 9 "Refinery Tanker".  Built at TL9 under CT/HG
>>rules.  No jump capability, and makes a 1% rate of return on investment,
>>hauling two loads of fuel from a GG to the starport per month.  Given that
>>transit time at 1G to a "near gas giant" is ~5d, that allows a day on each
>>end of the voyage to scoop or unload and one weekend a month off for the
>crew.
>>
><snip design>
>
>consider using more G to reduce the time taken. At 4G, I calculate that the
>time should be halved, allowing more runs per month and much more profit.
>(G will increase cost per transported unit of fuel, but unless it doubles
>this cost it would make sense.

        Hi, Phil!

        Yep, you are *almost* right.  The much larger cost and crew
requirements due to powerplant size increase is mostly offset by the ship
getting a two extra runs in every month.  However, at TL9, the difference is
still too big...  our ship costs 571Cr per ton of fuel to make 500Cr/dton,
resulting in a loss of MCr2.8/yr.  Of course, it has an Agility of 4, making
it a little less raidable, too.
        At TL 13 (when powerplant size & cost next drop), it costs
Cr423/dton to make Cr500/dton.  That nets us MCr3.2, or a 0.3%ROR.
        At TL 15, it costs Cr290/dton to make Cr500/dton.  That nets
MCr9.3/yr, or a 1.5%ROR.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:08:35 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Two parsec jump 

> > Kev*E*n, please.  My parents were *quite* specific about it.
> 
> Sorry.  Think i've done that before too...  Think it was an identicle
> response... ; )

6 hours in the comfy chair for you, bucko.

> > > You've seen MTUs wilderness refueling rules, haven't you?  Almost entirely
> > > based off Supp 5 and TNE.  Try http://members.aol.com/travelrtne/main.htm
> > 
> > I don't have TNE either.  And besides, that's YTU, not anything official,
> > right?
> 
> Right.  It is more Supp 5 than TNE (which is primarily tasks difficulties,
> etc).   The effects are mostly from supp 5.  

Like I say, I ain't got TNE or Supp 5.
 
> > Under CT/HG, hulls are assumed to be rigid enough to handle an atmospheric
> > flight unless they're nonstreamlined.  Under CT/HG, even semistreamlined
> hulls
> > can skim.  AHL's are considered semistreamlined.  So what's the problem?
> 
> It was supposed to be semistreamlined w/ an asterisk, as in it's not designed
> to do the skimming but is capable of doing it in emergencies.  The description
> in Supp5 says the AHLs were constructed using an open-frame system.  It
> would've been more appropriately described as USL w/ an asterisk IMO.  ; )

I'd consider some Black Hats at 30 million klicks and closing at 6G an 
emergency.  Skim & deedee.
 
> > That's because the hangers are a shirtsleeve environment so you can do
> > maintanance on the small craft during jump.  Dunno bout *you*, comrade, but
> > *I* ain't getting out on the hull during a jump to work on something.
> 
> Hangers and grapples are different things, entirely.  Think of grapples more
> as a jet's hardpoint mouting for a missle.  SL grapples would be a groove
> shaped out of the way of the main airflow, AF might be perfectly shaped and
> fitted, maybe even a door of some kind... Any external maintenance that needs
> to be done will be done EVA.  

But not if you've got regulation hangers.  Regulation hangers, you'd have the 
shirtsleeve environment to work on your small boats.
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:22:38 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fusion Plus Discussion

At 03:54 pm 12/7/98 EST, Cardsharks wrote:
>In a message dated 12/7/98 2:35:07 PM Central Standard Time,
>johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:
>
><< Perhaps you would like to define it, then, Marc? >>
>
>The original statement went something like this... 
>
>(based on the original CT ship design specs, which said that the minimum size
>for a ship (as opposed to a small craft) was 100 tons). CT has small craft
>down to a 10 ton fighter. 
>
>Prior to M:0, there is a minimum size required for a fusion power plant.
>Efficient small craft powered by fusion were not possible; neither were small
>vehicles powered by fusion.
>
>Fusion Plus cracked that limit and made it possible to produce fusion power
>plants which had the same efficiency as larger plants, but were smaller. 
>
>Fusion Plus produces no difference in power output for starships. It just
>makes it possible to make smaller Fusion Power Plants with a
corresponding
>mass /volume to output ration.
>
>Before Fusion Plus, you could not make Chrysler Lebarons with fusion power
>under the hood. After FP, you could.
>
>The small craft of the First Imperium and of the Interstellar Wars were bigger
>than thos of the Third Imperium because the 3I small craft (including
>fighters) could carry smaller fusion power plants. 
>
>Before M:0, no one had Fusion Plus. In the Imperium's early years, they
>maintained it as a monopoly.


	For those who've been around on the GDW-Beta list since then, this
was the going-in guidance we were provided for QSDS. Fusion plants
were exactly as in FF&S, except below TL12--power per cubic meter of
plant didn't change, just the smallest size you could make the plant.
This proved to be too confining for Greg Porter in the Vehicle Design
System, so he unilaterally changed it. As with most IG products, I'm
will to bet it didn't get run by Marc before being printed ...
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:31:24 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

Dear Folks -

Leaonard replied to someone thus:
>> The main problem with habitable worlds around a Gas Giant is the Gas
Giant.
>> Think of the seasons on earth, they are governed by the amount of warmth
>> recieved from the sun.
[snip]
>Except that due to the mass of a gas giant, the orbital periods of the
>moons are a *lot* shorter.

I did the calcs for Tavonni years ago, trying to force it into the
shadow-cone of Ryzel (its gas giant) for long enough to create "Tavonni
Jungle". This is a dense, impenetrable mass of killed-off vegetation
covered in new growth - great for hunting parties on TaSP (Tavonni Safari
Park). I started with a 2-week period in the cone, once every hundred years
or so, but when I re-checked I found it should be in the dark for only a
few days (_Final Night_, anyone?). So I said that this occurred more often
- - every 20 years or so.

I based the calcs on _Book 6: Scouts) and _Grand Survey_ (which became the
_World Builder's Handbook_). I've never even *seen* a copy of _World Tamers
Handbook_, so I dont' know how this measures up to "modern" calculations.
;-)

I look on this as an example of playing with the numbers (legitimately, not
fudging) to achieve an interesting result.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:32:50 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Al Morai Type MK HG v1

  Here's an attempt to do a HG version of the Al Morai Type MK from SMC:

Mora-class Cargo Carrier
                MK-B714442-090000-90000-0    MCr 1305.812      3000 tons
        batteries bearing   1     1                             TL=15
                batteries   1     1                             Crew=28
Passengers=30. Cargo=930. Fuel=1320. EP=120. Agility=1. Low=0. Three Shuttles.

  The design falls short of the 1200 tons of cargo listed in SMC; it's
not clear that even a B:2 design with Z drives could achieve this. The
dispersed hull saves at least an additional MCr 30 (24 after discounts)
and is acceptable as all ports of call have the shuttle and refuelling
facilities needed for such a ship (in addition to Marketings obvious
customer service capacities).

  Weapons loads are fairly minimal considering where these ships travel;
although the ship would be hard-pressed against even a Zho frigate, 50
tons of the cargo capacity is actually an empty 50 Dt weapons bay (HG,
p.30) to be equipped with missiles or a repulsor in wartime.

  The three 40 ton shuttles seem to be a needless frill considering the
operating environment. Fifteen crew staterooms are installed, one each
for the Captain and Purser, and halves for the rest: four engineers, two
gunners, 3 shuttle pilots, nine pursers staff/stewards/service, and ten
command staff. Specialists include customer relations, a doctor and nurse,
and a loadmaster (cargo handling deck crew come from service, shuttles,
the gunners, and one engineer).

  These ships don't make money at KCr 1/t and KCr 8 gross after LS. The
company must have speculative trade carried in addition to always running
full (that being what the offices are for), and possibly mail contracts
between some of the little backwater worlds. Given their rather odd route
structure it wouldn't be surprising if they have an understanding with the
IN in exchange for having reqular service to some of these dumps.

  Interestingly, none seem to have been lost during the 5FW.

  FWIW, there are some fairly dubious scams to be run on the design rules.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1260
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 10 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1261



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sylean Battleship refueling
Re: Women, Mental Health etc
Planetary Hydrographics (was Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation)
Re: Courier networks
Re: Fusion Plus
Re: various stuff (certified Ditzie free)
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Test
Deafening silence
Sanger vs. Sanders
CT 400 Ton Patterson Class Belter Deckplans
is anybody out there
Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...
Hello...
Re: High Guard: looking for errata/changes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 22:18:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship refueling

In mail you write:

> traveller@mpgn.com writes:
>>I knew I had seen reference to this before in one of the LBBs.  In Secret
>>of the Ancients, p 18, the following limits are given:
>>
>>"Equipment is subject to specific limits when in a gas giant environment,
>>
>>...Ships and Small Craft
>>A 3G maneuver drive is required before a vessel can enter the atmosphere
>>below 37,000km (Note:  the altitudes are specific to the GG in the
>>scenario, diameter is 72,000km and atmosphere reaches to an altitude of
>>about 37,000km).  Commercial vessels (traders, merchants, liners) can
>>withstand up to 1000 degrees Kelvin and up to 1000 atmospheres.
>>Military vessels can handle temperatures up to 1500 degress Kelvin and
>>pressures up to 2000 atmospheres.  System Defense Boats are specifically
>>constructed to handle temperatures up to 2500 degrees Kelvin and pressures
>>to 3000 atmospheres."
> [snip]
>>
>>Civilian ships:  1000 atm should give it a submerged depth of 9990meters
>>Military shipes: 2000 atm should give it a submerged depth of 19990meters
>>SDB class craft:  3000 atm should give it a submerged depth of 29990
>>meters
>>
>>If this is correct, then the ocean refueling issue is moot.  Your basic
>>Type A Free Trader could refuel just about anywhere...The problem as I see
>>it is how much maneuver capacity would you need to surface if you had to
>>go
>>that deep.
>
> It would be moot, IF the temperature/pressure ratings were accurate. Mind
> you, if they were then civilian ships would be pretty invulnerable, let
> alone military ones. IIRC (and I could be wrong), those
> temperature/pressure combinations are where you start to do things like
> create diamonds.

Not even close, as far as the pressure goes. Thousand atmospheres can
be handled by a lot of industrial gear. The temperature ranges are
kinda extreme.

For diamonds you need pressures in the *millions* of atmospheres.

> If those figures are accurate, then starship hulls are pretty
> invulnerable...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 03:13:54 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Re: Women, Mental Health etc

>Is it a gravitational thing. I assume it is like the tides.

	Having lived with several different groups of women over the years (for
clarification two groups were family enviroment, one was a roommate scene)
I have been educated (read yelled at) that it is not tied to the lunar
tides BUT women whose cycle is on the lunar tides tend to be moodier (read
YELL AT MORE)
It could be gravitational since the cervics is opening and the uterius is
pushing (the blood out) and gravity does help by pulling downward, would
this mean that lack of gravity will make the cycle last longer?

>One more thing. About mental health, I like I said am on depo provera (birth
>control shot that prevents ovulation)  and therefor have no cycles, so that
>does not have an effect on my mental health. I am however a diagnosed
>bipolar (manic depresive)  with an anxiety disorder, and on a strict regimen
>of medicine as of last year. I can say that when I look now at my health
>history, the only correlations I find are...over the years when I have
>become severely manic in the past, looking at a calender it happens to
>coincide with the waxing of the moon. But that may just be coincidence,
>seeing it is not a monthly thing. I am in a better mood during waxing, but
>that may just have to do with some other hormonal factors that all women
>have.
>Are there any thorough studies out there? I have been looking out of
>curiosity, and how would space travel effect peoples mental health? 

I read some years ago that Nasa was thinking about putting Dungeons and
Dragons books aboard the flights to relieve boredom, Several groups wrote
against this Demonic practice (heh) and Nasa has never said a word on the
subject since.
(They should have suggested GURPS instead) Cabin fever was the term from
extended sea voyage eras. Depression, Suicide, paranoia (sp) I think it
would apply to space age too, I have seen people isolate themselves will
being stationed in remote areas overseas (europe, alaska) their ability to
join in the group activities goes, then hygene goes (I witnessed a person
refuse to wash his clothing for months at a time.) Ofcourse few military
people could or would recognize these things as a real mental illness and
discount the person as a 'ragbag or dirtbag' not worth the time to help.
(An NPC on a space ship could develope these traits.) 

>ideas about mental health and space travel? How about women >and travel?
>Would a woman still cycle being jumped from one area  to >another? 

Having been an observer, I have seen that invariably a woman will suddenly
start her cycle after having returned from an Extended stay (a year plus)
in a opposing (at least 8 hrs diff) time zone.

>imagine a woman of 60 who
>has spent a life in space not even close to menopause. How >will this effect
>women and the way they develop and act over  the years. How >will it effect
>our life cycles? One more bone to chew on, is there a >correlation between
>aging and menopause?

	No I have seen articles on women ages 29 to 60 who have menopaused (is
that a right word?) I think the article stated it was enviroment, health,
genes and men (I have been told that men will drive a woman to Menopause...
Just kidding)


>Women in my family do not begin menopause until their
>mid-fifties, and there are a lot of 90 something year olds in >my family, do
>these have anything to do with each other.

	Would that be a disadvantage or an advantage to have cycles that last
past standard Menopausal ages? One point per ten years? 
	Actually I am not kidding. think of the aggrevation, the supplies, the
exams, the possible pregnancies, the D & C's, the sudden onset of (Hmm I
don't know the term, but it usually starts with massive blood loss through
the cycle and  results in a hysterectomy (sp))  , The risk a woman has
during her cycle, risks like Toxic Shock Syndrome if exposed to certain
gas's, any crystaline shaped (I am lost for the proper word) airborne
particle a prime example would be CS Gas (riot control gas) it is
crystaline in form and can lead to TSS. So if the atmosphere were to
contain irritants ....
	Not that I expect too many games to include these varients, but it
would make for a mature aspect of the game.


and ofcourse the gratutius joke on the subject

cycle: is it a two seater or one and how many gears does it have?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:04:44 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Planetary Hydrographics (was Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation)

Dear Folks -

Peter Newman said:
>kilometers of water with trillions (1x10^12) of tons of water.  You
>could refuel an AHL clan cruiser out of it every day for the next
>thousand years or so and it would still be 99+% intact.  Do you really
>think thats enough of a shortage of water to drive up the price.

My earlier comment about "The Martian Way" should really have been
expanded. In the story, there is a politician on Earth complaining about
the amount of fuel (water from Earth's oceans) that the Martians use to
tool about with. The problem was not one of *numbers* (as Peter - and
Asimov - showed, the politician was talking rubbish), but of *people's
perceptions*. The politician was succesful because he appealed to people's
fears of running out of water. After all, if you are on a desert world
where you "know" water is scarce, how would you feel about a bunch of
spacers - who don't even live here - "stealing your planet's very
lifeblood!" (shake fist in the air at this point).

Not a sensible, rational argument from the facts, of course (not many
political arguments are ;-), but certainly enough to put a premium on the
fuel you sell to off-worlders. These are the sort of consequential effects
that bring worlds alive for me.

Plot Hook: the adventurers are hired to convince the world that starship
fuel consumption doesn't significantly affect a world's eco-system. Their
opposition is a rabid politician and his minor (but vocal) party.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:18:10 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Courier networks

Gary (TravelrTNE@aol.com)

>>>Canon says that the X-boats are the "fastest available means?"  I don't see
>>>anything that says that.
>> 
>>"...express boat links have been established to insure the rapid transmission
>>of messages (governmental, commercial, and private) with a maximum of
>>efficiency."
> 
>I still don't see "fastest available means."  I see "maximum of efficiency"
>but that's in the players section and smacks of propganda/spin-control.

I can see that it's not worth the effort to discuss that part any further.

>>>Just that it's "designed to make optimum use of jump technology" (which
>>>isn't necessarily false).
>> 
>>Yes it is. It is easy to design an Jump-4 X-boat system that is more
>>efficient than the one supposedly in use in the OTU. Introducing jump-5
>>and jump-6 links in selected places can improve things even more.
> 
>Of course.  The Xboat system may have well started out as optimized.
>Waystations and capitals get moved, the routes are slower to change due to
>political squabbles, corruption, etc etc.  The Xboats are certainly capable of
>being optimized for their design (reorganizing the randomly generated routes
>is what I think you want. Well actually the Regency's Xweb is just what you
>want, isn't it?  That's what exists IMTU <g>  I'd prefer to rationalize the
>dice if i ever ran a pre-Rebellion campaign...). Look at the reasons given
>for the slower speeds... "trade routes do not follow straight lines and not
>all jumps are made at jump-4."  MT IE pg 24. It's not preposterous to assume
>that the xboat network has been slowly degenerating to the situation c1100
>where it is quite inefficient according to its capabilities.

Since I've already stated several times that I don't object to the X-boat
network as such, I don't understand why people keep harping on that. Yes, I
think the randomly generated X-boat network is odd and that it would be
much more plausible if it had been reality-checked afterwards, but it's not
"that's-so-odd-it-CAN'T-be true" but only "that's so-odd-that-I'm-going-to-
change it-IMTU-odd".
  
>You know, Hans, I think RSB might be interpreted as validating your theory,
>too (excepting J5 and J6 links on the Xboat network). It says (pg 21) there
>were parallel J6 routes for the "noble elite."

Thanks. That a reference I wasn't aware of.

>>>IMTU, the Emperor had good reason to be wary of an increasingly corrupt
>>>bureaucracy.
>> 
>>But the lines you quote above imply that the Imperial Bureaucracy IS the
>>recipients of that extra fast information, no?
> 
>That's why I asked if I was being too literal.  ; )  And later said the
>definition and casing of "bureacucracy" might well be important.  The
>description of the naval courier in Supp 9 would indicate its only used for
>fleet actions, keeping in touch w/ fleet elements, and seemingly only over a
>subsector level (that's where the fleet is, after all).

That, OTOH, is so-odd-that-it-IMO-CAN'T-be-true. It is simply so vital for a
farflung navy to keep in touch by the fastest available means that I flatly
refure to believe in an active navy where every effort to maintain the
fastest possible communications isn't being made. Please note that I could
accept a local admiral in a placid backwater that was so complacent after
decades of peace as to allow things to slide. But not a navy of an empire
with the size and history of the Imperium.
   
>>>...Above this, J5 & J6 was restricted and required heavy permits (and not
>>>allowed for even a sector wide service, which could/would blatantly reveal
>>>the control system that was the Express-boat network), more so than lower
>>>jump drives.
>> 
>>And the restrictions required to ensure that those regulations wasn't
>>subverted didn't reveal it just as blatantly? Riiiiight!
> 
>If the Imperium forces private (especially corporate) parties to register
>their ships and somewhat regulates matters to do w/ ship ownership and
>construction, it would be fairly easy to screen out "non approved" applicants
>for a significant number of J6 ships or to put on such a tax to make it
>unwanted ("what?  'bulk rate, premium jump drive' tax?").  The megacorps would
>be allowed their J6 couriers as long as they don't burst the bubble of the
>Xboat network to the Great Unwashed.  A single (even a couple) J6 ships fine.
>Just not setting up a pony express type system. They're expensive enough to
>be noticed and rare enough for covert investigations (and private
>"reprimands") to be conducted by Imperial Intelligence.

It's funny how the Imperium is very laid-back and hands-off and powerless
when it comes to explaining why it allows piracy and private wars to exist,
but up-tight and controlling and powerful when it comes to explaining why
such a thing as rapid communication dosen't exist. IMO the Imperium could
be interpreted one way or the other, but not both at the same time.

>A courier network of J6 ships has got to cost a lot and be
>noticible.  If the Emperor didn't want them to have them, they wouldn't have
>them. As long as they don't burst the bubble and expose the Xboat control
>system, they're allowed to keep them.

But that's just my point. What X-boat control system? If you allow a few
hundred people with widely divergent interests per sector to use an extra-
fast system, then there is no control over information.
 
>>pretty much how things work IMTU except that I don't see the need for the
>>secrecy) would have several hundred people recieve the advance notice*. You
>>may be ready to believe that several hundred people with as many different
>>agendas can keep such a secret. I don't.
> 
>Well the secrecy is just that their J6 courier networks exist.

I was referring to the notion that only a few people knew of the assasination
until the official news got there by X-boat. But the secret that J6 courier
networks exist is just as... no, even more impossible to keep. It goes out
the window the first time (OK, one of the first times) someone uses advance
notice of some event to accomplish something. And what's the use of having
advance notice of anything if you can't use it for fear of revealing the
fact that you had advance notice (This, incidentally, is a classic dillemma
of spy organisations theoughout time).

>>*Heads of Imperial Bureaucracy on all worlds, megacorporate sector managers,
>>fleet admirals plus anyone they felt the need to consult.
> 
>Just what is the "Imperial Bureaucracy" in YTU?

IMTU each star system constitutes a sovereignty governed in any way its
inhabitants see fit. As members of the Imperium these sovereignties have
surrendered certain of their rights to the Emperor. The Emperor turns over
these rights to his vassals in return for fealthy and these vassals in
turn parcel them out to lesser vassals. Each star system thus have two
associated authorities: its own government administering system affairs and
an Imperial noble administering Imperial affairs. That noble is the head of
the Imperial bureaucracy for that system. When a system is too small to
rate even a baron of it's own, it is considered part of some mearby
marquisate and its Imperial affairs are run by someone appoiinted by the
marquis.

>How is that defined? Are we talking low level number crunchers and analysts?

No, just a few hundred Imperial nobles, a couple of dozen Megacorporate
managers, and a couple of dozen admirals.

>I'm thinking sector and subsector capital nobility (and their aides).

Even that is 40+ individuals for the domain. Add the Megacorporate managers
and a couple of IN admirals and you have 60 people with widely divergent
interests and agendas. Add in their aides and you're up to more than 100
people. Do you really think that such a group is capable of keeping any
secret, let alone one of such monumental import?

>I have no objection to that very limited body being part of a J6 network,
>but anything lower doesn't need (much less rate) more than the Xboat system.

Rate is a political decision. Need is something else. If the Imperium really
is straining under the communication lag (as we are told it is), then they
most definitely need it.

>Why would Eneri the Bureaucrat need or want more than the Xboat can provide?

If Eneri the Bureaucrat is the Imperial governor of an entire star system
he would benefit from timely information about a whole lot of issues.

>And why would the Emperor or the Emperors men not just tell Eneri to shut
>his hole and crunch his numbers?

Because the Imperium is straining under the communication lag and the Emperor
would like to relieve that strain? 




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:32:48 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fusion Plus

At 08:30 am 12/8/98, you wrote:
>
>>From: CardSharks@aol.com
>>Subject: Re: Fusion Plus
>>
>>In a message dated 12/5/98 5:37:34 PM Central Standard Time,
ianw@orac.net.au
>>writes:
>>
>><< 
>> I have put some thought into Fusion Plus, and I think I know how we can
>> limit it to use as an auxilary civilian system.
>>  >>
>>
>>Make sure you define what Fusion Plus is first. T4 got it wrong.
>>
>
>Table 219 of FFS2 of Fusion Plus currently defines it ... unless of course
>you can tell us exactly what T4 got wrong about it ... 

	The FF&S2 description was a poor attempt to patch over the problem
created when "Central Supply Catalog" changed the definition from
Starships.  

	For Starships (and specifically SSDS/QSDS) we were told that FF&S
(TNE) was to be our gospel, with only those changes necessary to
match Marc's new vision. Specifically for Fusion Plus (after
consulting with Marc), we were instructed to make the minimum size
power plants below TL12 ten times larger to represent non-fusion plus
plants. When Central Supply Catalog and the Vehicle Design System
were created by Greg Porter, that didn't allow him to do what he
wanted to do. He flat out said on the GDW-Beta list he didn't care
what FF&S or Starships said, or what was "Traveller," he wanted to be
able to build 20G grav speeders, and would rewrite Fusion+ ... which
he did, and I doubt he (or anybody at IG) consulted Marc on that
issue.

	When we started FF&S2 we were faced with trying to put together a
patchwork between SSDS and VDS while avoiding pissing off too many
people who didn't want Yet Another Incompatible Design System. Well,
obviously we didn't succeed. And because of the timecrunch (IG
published what we considered the first PLAYTEST READY draft ...), it
never got provided to Marc for his blessing.

	Given his statement, I would take it as an official errata that
Fusion Plus is *incorrect* as presented in FF&S2 (T4) and CSC. The
correct description should be what Marc gave: non-fusion plus power
plants have a minimum size that is ten times what was presented in
TNE FF&S. Fusion plus power plants have *exactly* the same power
output as non-fusion plus, but allow a smaller minimum size.

	The "regular" fusion plants presented in FF&S2 (T4) are non-fusion
plus up to TL11, and are fusion plus from TL-12 on. If I get the time
in the next year or so, I'll try to update the errata to show *only*
regular (non-fusion plus) plants in the table, and put in a note to
show that plants built with fusion plus can be ten times smaller.
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 22:38:11
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: various stuff (certified Ditzie free)

>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
>Subject: Re : Power Systems (was Fusion Plus, longish)

>Beyond TL 8, particle accelerator (proton beam) driven reactors would
>soon supplant conventional technologies in those societies concerned
>about loss of coolant accidents and meltdowns.... Fission can't continue
>when the accelerator is off.
>
>Ob Trav :-
>For an accelrator-driven fission plant design a C-PAW (proton beam) with
>discharge energy equal to (power plant output in MW/50) MJ with a ROF of
>2 per second. Otherwise identical to TL 8 fission plant in FF&S terms
>(mass, volume, etc). [2]

I like this idea, but according to FFS2, 24 shots per minute is as good as
it gets for PAWs. I guess you could mount a couple of them in parallel.

>(my apologies to the non-gearheads on the list)

S'ok, they're asleep by now.

It was the footnotes that did it.

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Discount for items of unknown origin
>
>However, secondhand stuff has significantly reduced value. If you sell
>to someone who wants a power plant, they are going to want a significant
>saving (like 50%) because they get no guarantee of how it has been used
>and no one to complain to if it breaks, even if you supply all the
>service history. If you sell to a retailer, then they can give a guarantee
>to their customer but will need to service the item, make a profit and
>still have a margin in case it does not work and is returned.
>A possible assumption is that the retailer will sell at 60% of full price
>and thus will only pay 40% of full price. Don't forget that any tax that
>the retailer pays also has to come out of any margin.
>If the retailer charged more than 60% then they would have problems
>competing with new products.
>
>The problem is that you have goods of unknown age, origin and title.
>
>In the real world stuff like this gets an inspection for insurance
>purposes. Now you can jump to the next planet before the paperwork
>catches up but the buyer can't, so they will want a large margin to
>cover the occasional unhappy customer and reposesed goods.
>

My feeling is that the classic buyers of this sort of goods are outsystem
belters ... who are also the people that tend to have it stolen.

It's pretty easy to secure control of a given 100 diameter 'point', and
pretty hard to control the outsystem.

>Also asking all the possible buyers for a price risks inviting the
>police to the party so you will be restricted to your list of buyers
>to those that you think you can trust.
>

Remember, our theoretical 10 m3 t-plate unit could be taken a long way to a
market, without running up too much in transport costs.

>Thus you won't be getting 40%.

How about '40% of used value' ?

>consider using more G to reduce the time taken. At 4G, I calculate that the
>time should be halved, allowing more runs per month and much more profit.
>(G will increase cost per transported unit of fuel, but unless it doubles
>this cost it would make sense.

We're mixing design systems, but at 4G and TL9, crewmen will go *squish*,
as inertial compensation hasnt been invented.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:30:45 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Except that in the scenario you just gave, the ship can just as easily
> jump to the main world (using J1 worth of fuel) then jump outsystem
> again, using the rest of the fuel. That takes *half* the time, and the
> only difference is that you arerive at the next stop "empty". 
> 
> If you want avoid that, then you could do a jump to the kuiper belt on
> the way out. 

  I was referring to a planet with no neigbours within J-1 distance. I've
only really gotten familiar with Neworld (where I play) and Old Expanses
(where I referee), neither has a nifty sector spanning main like e.g
Spinward Marches does, so J-2 commerce is a necessity.

> However, the important fact here is that while you can find comets and
> the like out there, you can't do so *quickly*. Among other things, they
> are likely to be tens of AU away. Remember, at the *inner* edge, the
> Kuiper Belt is about 40 AU in radius. And it extends out for quite a
> ways. Assume it's several AU thick, and you get an inner edge that has
> an area of ~77 AU by 4 AU or about 307 AU. Add in a nice "wdth" for the
> belt, and work out just how many cubic AUs the thousands of bodies are
> scattered thru. 

  There's no question locating a comet would be far too tall an order for
a trader. I was thinking of a situation where either: a) Belters have
located suitable comets, and maps and signal transponder frequences can be
had for the right price, or b) there are manned refueling stations in the
Kuiper belt. (If the traffic is heavy enough to support this.)
 
> Heck, the more massive the system, the *lower* the losses. That's the
> way eco-systems *work*. Also, the larger the habitat, the *lower* the
> surface area to volume ration is. And it's the surface area where
> losses occur. 

 I was rather thinking of all the thousands of visitors the A class
starport these places usually have gets every week. Youd have to
institute some pretty brutal biomass quarantine measures to stop them from
taking away unfeasible amounts of life support materiel. (I.e all they
eat, drink and breathe etc.) Also most things you export are going to take
away oxygen/water (plastics, metals etc.)

> And with even thousands of people, you are going to have to have a full
> fledged eco-system of some sort. By the time you get to millions,
> you'll be doing things like using artificial marshes to recycle sewage
> (this is a recent technology, but quite workable).

 [rather cool explanation snipped]

> On airless worlds, and ones where the air is really thin, I think I'd
> go for underground placement of the marshes and "farms". Create a
> series of linked "bubble caverns" with nukes, meson guns, or whatever. 
> 
> On worlds with a decent pressure, but non-breathable air, you can get
> by with fairly light construction. This includes the higher presure but
> non-exotic atmospheres. No reason not to have the marshes/farms at
> ambient pressure. 
> 
> With exotic atmosphere types, underground starts to look good again.

  OK, this is doable. (And makes for a rather interesting locale too.)
But the main point is _why_ would anyone do something like this? For one,
even with the colossal economic might of the Imperium behind you, the
initial investment of starting all the hundreds (at least) colonies like
this on the canon starmaps would eat you alive considering the need to
import the starting water oxygen topsoil etc. and to excavate hundreds of
cubic klicks of cave. And with a garden world with a couple of hundred
inhabitants right next door (several examples exist) the logic really
starts to stink.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:45:45 -0000
From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Test

Just a test coz I haven't seen anything in the past few days

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:58:50 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Deafening silence

*ping*

I have received no TML messages the last two days.  Is it just me
or has the list stopped?



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - Mr Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:10:31 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Sanger vs. Sanders

The guy who owns the rights to the DGP material is Roger SANGER, not Paul
SANDERS. Paul is the guy who brought out the Lost Modules by the Keith
Brothers. They are different people! We better start getting this straight
before we hurt Paul's reputation!

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:31:12 -0500
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: CT 400 Ton Patterson Class Belter Deckplans

I've added another HG Traveller ship to my 
deckplans page.  It's a 400 ton Belter / Refinery.  

See:

http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html

The stats were done by Michel Vaillancourt.  I 
did the plans to match.

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:32:43 -0500
From: Christopher Pratt <valen@gatecom.com>
Subject: is anybody out there

I don't seem to have received any mail from TML for the last
couple of days...so i'm sending a thinly disguised test
message to see if it bounces back to me.

thanks for you patience
- -- 
later
christopher pratt
valen@gatecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:09:24 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...

Greetings All:

Fairly hard on the heels of Mr. A's. recent announcemnt...

Laura Elizabeth Kiesche
Future Traveller Player
Future First Woman on Mars
(better get that application to Cornell and NASA finished...)

December 2, 1998 at 7:12 PM
8 pounds, 6 ounces
21.25 inches

...baby is doing well, active, alert, eating, and doing the things that result
from eating...

...Mother is recovering from surgery...

...Father is looking a bit frazzled at the moment...

Fred Kiesche
(Traveller Since 1977)
(Father Since 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 22:24:05 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Hello...

Sorry to waste bandwidth, but I have not recieved any posts from the TML
since about noon EST.  Is the list down or have I been unsubbed?

If someone gets this, please notify me off list.

Thanks!

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

Give me a lever long enough and a prop strong enough. I can
single-handedly move the world.
- --- Archimedes ---

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:03:27 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: High Guard: looking for errata/changes

>Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 2:30:51 CST
>From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
>Subject: High Guard: looking for errata/changes
>
>I'm looking for errata or additions or changes for High Guard;
>please e-mail me off the list, since HG seems to be out of favor.


Kevin Walsh's Free Trader Beowulf page has a number of new options for HG
(although I wish the Sensors options were in a standard txt file or some
such; none of my word processors can open whatever they're written in).


is High Guard out of favor? seems to me a fair number of HG designs have
been posted here as of not too long ago. I would also be interested in any
errata as it becomes available.


Allen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1261
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 10 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1262



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Vilani Provincial Governor
Re: Planetary Hydrographics
High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)
Re: echo... echo...
Yeah it's aliiiiive!
GURPS:Trav Alien Races 2
Re: AND powered missiles
Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
Re: Roger's ownership of DGP
Re: Testing
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1258
Vilani Provincial Governor
Re: testing 2
Re: Testing
Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
Re: G-forces in a crash
WorldGen program revision
RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #1257
Planetary Hydrographics (was Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation)
Humor: Gearheads take the fun out of Christmas
Bored...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:17:52 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Vilani Provincial Governor

A brief question:

What are the various levels of interstellar government practiced by 
the Vilani during the Interstellar War period?

I have found reference to a Diikagkarunii (provincial governor) 
during my First Contact research, but do not know how large an area a 
province is regarded by the Vilani.

In addition, what are the levels of Vilani interstellar
administration/government above and below the provincial level?

Thank you for your time.

In Service,
Jason

============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:41:36 -0800
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Hydrographics

"Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com> types:
>> What's the chance that every drop of water on this 
>> hydrographic-0 planet accumulated in one place?
>The small amount of water on a hydro-0 planet may 
>be concentrated in a polar ice cap.

     Depends on how evil you want to be to your players.
Be nice and put it in an ice cap.
Be mean and have it spread all over the place, and defended by
tribal units.  In order to get the water, they will have to kill a dozen 
so people defending their clans water.


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Tattoos are the leisure suites of the 90's.  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:41:40 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)

This is based on an earlier discussion here about fleet trains - combat
support vessels - in the High Guard system.

I noticed that the HG ship form had a check box for "magazine", indicating
whether the ship had one or not. This box wasn't mentioned anywhere
I could find in the rules - were rules for supply once included or
considered, and later dropped?

Anyway - HG and TCS abstract quite a few items, such as sensors,
crew casualties, even planetary conquests. I was considering a method
for abstracting starship supply capabilities.

1. Basic Rules: The first level of abstraction, the most basic method,
would be inclusion of required cargo space in starships. 

For every 1% of hull space dedicated to cargo, a warship can operate
away from a friendly starport for one month. A starship with less than
this amount (or that has exceeded it's cruising time) will start to suffer
a degradation in capabilities. The exact effects should vary by TU,
but some suggestions:

Reduced weapon factor rating (poor maintenance on targeting arrays,
burnt out weapon tubes, missile shortages). For each month out of
supply, every weapon type either suffers a loss of one factor or a loss
of 10% (rounded up) of total weapon batteries for that type (owner's
choice, but single-battery weapons must take the factor loss).

Reduced effective computer rating (computer rating includes sensors,
scanners, even some fire control. Any of these could be harmed by
lack of spares). Reduce computer effectiveness for combat _only_
by one for every two months out of supply. Ship can still jump with
original computer rating.

Reduced damage control effectiveness (equipment used up already.
Attempted damage control on systems that have been field-repaired
at least once, now harder to get working again). For every second
month out of supply, apply a -1 penalty to damage control rolls.

Reduced combat-readiness of fighters and other carried craft. For every
month out of supply, 10% (rounded up) of the current fighter compliment
is unavailable for action. 

Access to friendly starport for one week will reverse all these effects,
as will access to a full month's worth of supplies for every two months
out of supply.

Optional rule: Any system reduced to Zero rating due to being out of
supply must be repaired in a starport as if it were destroyed in battle.

2. Combat support vessels - if you can't take it with you, bring someone
who can.

Combat support vessels can be tenders, ammunition ships, fleet
supply cargo ships, whatever level of detail you wish to include. 
A combat support vessel must provide the 1% per month cargo space
for supported ships. For example, a Free Trader acting as a fleet supply
auxiliary could use it's 161tn cargo bay to support itself (2tns) and
another 15900tns of warships for a month. It's even possible that it will 
only need 1tn (or less) of space for itself, as it isn't taking part in high-
intensity combat operations.

If the combat support ship can shuttle back and forth between a
friendly star port and the fleet, even 1% tonnage could supply that
fleet indefinitely. The longer the shuttle route, the more tonnage must
be allocated. Less than two jumps, 1% of tonnage is OK. Four jumps
would require 2% of tonnage. Figure 1% of tonnage required for every
two jumps...and note that this is jumps _by the support ship_. If
your fleet is Jump-4, on picket duty four parsecs from your starport,
a Free Trader supplying you will take four jumps to get there instead of
one and need 2% tonnage instead of 1%.

If a fleet loses it's combat support vessels, or needs to move away from
a location combat support was shuttling supplies to, it must immediatly
rate it's supply condition based on it's own cargo hull percentage and that
of combat support that came with it. If it has less than 1% hull tonnage
available, it will start to suffer from lack of supply within two weeks.

3. Differing Supply Needs: we might run out of missiles, but we got
plenty o' laser bolts.

Some ships require more supplies than others. The 1% figure is
considered as an average.

Ships requiring more supplies:
- --------------------------------------------
Missile armed vessels
Sandcaster-equipped vessels
Vessels with large fighter compliments
Vessels with large marine/assault landing contingents

The following detail rules cover these differing supply needs.

a. All warships require a base 0.5% hull volume in cargo stores.
b. To this is added 10% of hull volume dedicated to missiles,
missile bays, or sandcasters.
c. To this is added 10% of hull volume of carried fightercraft, and
1% of hull volume of carried combat non-fightercraft (such as
marine assault shuttles). Any of these craft can be stowed (using 
no supplies), but would require some time (hours?) and expenditure
of a month's supplies to bring to combat readiness. As an optional
rule, these craft can be stowed using starport supplies before a sortie.
These craft would then not begin to use supplies until they were
deployed in combat. This would allow replacement fightercaft to be
easily transported to forward bases.
d. Marines themselves are considered supplied by the 2tns crew
quarters provided for each marine.

Example:

A 3000tn Frigate with all energy weapons requires 15tns of cargo for
a month of independent operations.

A 3000tn Missile Frigate with two 100tn missile bays and ten laser turrets
would require 35tns of cargo for a month of independent ops.

A 3000tn Escort Carrier with 80 15tn light fighters on board would
require 135tns of cargo space per month of independent ops.

Comments?

Walt Smith
IMTU Geek Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:01:13 -0600
From: "Linda & Craig Baxter" <baxter@midusa.net>
Subject: Re: echo... echo...

> 
> Nothing from this list today. Anyone home?
> 
> GypsyComet

Hi

I think the list has been down.  Rob was just testing
so maybe it's working again.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:27:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Yeah it's aliiiiive!

The TML X-boat must have misjumped...
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:46:45 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: GURPS:Trav Alien Races 2

Well heck, I'll be glad to do it.  I'm fairly new to Traveller, and don't have
any CT material, but I'm literate and GURPS-friendly.  If someone out there
wants to collaborate and owns S&A, give me a shout.  Heck, I need the material
for my campaign anyhow...  might as well get paid for writing it!
  --S

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:45:10 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: AND powered missiles

 
>I dont think that cuts the mustard. If we double the thrust and take the
>burn time down to 28 minutes or so, it's acceleration ranging between 3 and
>5 gees as fuel burns, which is better.

If you don't put any armour on it at all - which you might was well not,
since AF20 is just decorative - and use the ln(mf) formulat to calculate
G-turns (since the missile's weight changes significantly as it burns fuel),
a 6G12 missile fits nicely into the standard 0.5 dTon size with laser commo.
Not a conincidence. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:01:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem

David Scott writes:
> Hi,
> 
> Excuse my ignorance but can't we just have a table of equivilants eg
> 
> DR2000 = Megatraveller 100 and fudge it a bit or am I being a bit naive.

DR 28 is 1 cm of steel, value of that varies with system, not sure what MT
equivalent is.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:26:46 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Roger's ownership of DGP

>Hmm.... unless he bought DGP as a going concern in which case he owes Rob.

Hm. He told me he had bought DGP from Joe. He used the names "DGP" and
"Digest Group Publication" when soliciting manuscripts. He talked about
rereleasing all the DGP stuff, plus material that they had in the works.
It sounds like a going concern to me, but I'm not an American lawyer (or
even a Canadian one).

In any case, quite frankly I do not expect that he will ever pay me, but
if he ever publishes anything that I sent in I will take legal action if I
can afford it - not that I expect him to publish anything based on his
record so far.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:50:44 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Testing

Rob Miracle wrote:
> 
> We lost a DEC Alpha (CPU board failure) which was providing us with our
> main name serving.  For some reason the mailing list box didn't like the
> new name server.
> 
> If this works, we should be back in business.
> 
> Rob

Will the server post whatever messages were sent during the outage?

ObTrav:  Obviously, this is an example of how lack of redundancy in the
X-boat system would seriously SNAFU Imperial communications.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:24:11 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1258

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:09:21 -0500, CardSharks@aol.com (Marc
Miller) wrote:

>In a message dated 12/8/98 8:15:52 AM Central Standard Time,
>Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

><< I posted a request to the list a month ago
> > asking if anyone knew who owns the Seeker rights and all I got was a
> > run-around. >>

>My understanding is this:

>DGP sold their rights to Paul Sanger (Seattle). He also picked up the FASA
>material, and he may have the Seeker material.

That's _Roger_ Sanger <spit>.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:31:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Vilani Provincial Governor

A brief question:

What are the various levels of interstellar government practiced by
the Vilani during the Interstellar War period?

I have found reference to a Diikagkarunii (provincial governor) 
during my First Contact research, but do not know how large an area a
province is regarded by the Vilani.

In addition, what are the levels of Vilani interstellar
administration/government above and below the provincial level?

Thank you for your time.

In Service,
Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:49:00 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: testing 2

Looks like the lights are coming on again...

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@tansoft.com>
To: traveller@tansoft.com <traveller@tansoft.com>
Date: Thursday, December 10, 1998 2:26 PM
Subject: testing 2


>This is a test.
>
>Rob
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:13:27 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Testing

WILL somebody kindly control the Templars!!! I have suffered various forms
of shakes and convulsions due to a severe case of Piracy Debate Withdrawal!
My doctors says that too many more of the TMLus Interruptus could cause
permanent brain damage (or was that the other way around?).

Glad to see the list back up!!!

Mike Peters, Letterworks@CITnet.com
webpage:"Jump Point" http://users.citnet.com/Letterworks/
"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's
sake. The great affair is to move."
Robert Louis Stevenson

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@tansoft.com>
To: traveller@tansoft.com <traveller@tansoft.com>
Date: Thursday, December 10, 1998 5:40 PM
Subject: Testing


>I didn't receive any messages over night and the queues seem to be
>operating ok, so lets just test things.
>
>Rob
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:04:55 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem

Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:00:56 -0500, Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com

>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:25:23 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
>What problem are we talking about?  (I haven't been following
>the discussion).
>****************
>that the armor may be underballanced against PA Spinal Mounts.  don't know
>for sure, but without trying a combat between capital ships we won't know.

Well, during playtest my group did find it hard to armor
large ships against their own weapons.  However, when you look
at the designs, if make a jump capable ship with good
maneuverability hard to damage, then non-jump, slower
ships become "undamageable".

The current system worked OK (it was possbible for a large
ship to recover from the first hit) and having ships that
couldn't be damamged would have been a big problem.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:48:13 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: G-forces in a crash

Christopher B. Thrash wrote:
> 
> Someone asked not too long ago about survivable G-loads during a crash
> sequence; I found these while studying. Apologies to whichever list this
> did not appear in -- I simply can't remember.
> 
> Human tolerance limits for whole body impact (duration 0.1 second):
> 
> Inertial vector crash, with:
> 
> Forward seating (with shoulder belts)           40g
> Forward seating (lapbelt only)                  27g (maximum of 0.002 second)
> Rearward seating                                80g
> Sideward seating                                9g
> 
This explains why the palletized seats in the C-141s that took me to and
from Egypt, and the seats on the C-5 from which I had a jump, were
rear-facing.

Looks as if grav inertial compensation isn't much help in a crash....

<<snip>>
> 
> Source: US Army Field Manual 1-301, Aeromedical Training for Flight
> Personnel, May 1987.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:49:05 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: WorldGen program revision

Thanks to a number of TML'ers who gave me advise on VB application
distribution.  Based on what I was told, I was able to reduce the
distribution size of the WorldGen application to a *much* more reasonable
size of 1.5 MB.  (still 15 times the executable size, but at least my ISP
won't be asking me to cough up for bandwidth charges!)

Also thanks to Jasen Kemp who gave me a revision for the time calculation
section of my code.

For those of you who have already downloaded it, the new version doesn't
make any functional changes - that comes in the next week or so (depending
on what feedback I get about the current application)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
The early bird gets the worm, BUT
   the second mouse gets the cheese!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:24:25 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #1257

At 06:41 AM 12/9/98 +1000, you wrote:
>
>Date:	Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:14:28 -0800 (PST)
>From:	Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>Subject:	Re: DGP & Paul Sanders (was Re:FASA Deckplans)
>
>- ---Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca> wrote:
>> ><< I'm going to scream.  I posted a request to the list a month ago
>> > asking if anyone knew who owns the Seeker rights and all I got was a
>> > run-around.  Here we go again!
>> >  >>
>> >
>> >Ask Marc Miller. He knows the guy. I think his name is Ed Sanders
>and he owns the DGP stuff too...
>>
>> It's PAUL Sanders that owns the DGp stuff, and if he also owns the
>Seeker copyrights then you're almost certainly out of luck. He hasn't been
>very good at releasing anything he owns the rights to (in spite of many
>plans, nothing ever gets published).
>>
>> If you _do_ manage to contact him, could you ask him when he plans on
>> paying me the money DGP owes me?
>
>Alright, this is where we were before.  This Sanders fellow has purchased
>what's left of DGP, Seeker and FASA Traveller stuff (and maybe more).  Now
>he is hiding from his creditors (been there, done that) and ducking
>flame-o-grams from Traveller people everywhere.  Fine.  Does anyone have any
>idea how to get in touch with him?  I'm not a creditor nor do I want the
>rights to publish his stuff anywhere.  Not that anyone could, anyway!
>
>I heard that he also has the missing evidence from the Kennedy shooting and
>is responsible for fluoride being put in our water supplies.

Hell - obsesive collector that I am, I have the actual rifle!  :)

L8r,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:21:47 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Planetary Hydrographics (was Re: Insystem Fuel Transportation)

Dear Folks -

Peter Newman said:
>kilometers of water with trillions (1x10^12) of tons of water.  You
>could refuel an AHL clan cruiser out of it every day for the next
>thousand years or so and it would still be 99+% intact.  Do you really
>think thats enough of a shortage of water to drive up the price.

My earlier comment about "The Martian Way" should really have been
expanded. In the story, there is a politician on Earth complaining about
the amount of fuel (water from Earth's oceans) that the Martians use to
tool about with. The problem was not one of *numbers* (as Peter - and
Asimov - showed, the politician was talking rubbish), but of *people's
perceptions*. The politician was succesful because he appealed to people's
fears of running out of water. After all, if you are on a desert world
where you "know" water is scarce, how would you feel about a bunch of
spacers - who don't even live here - "stealing your planet's very
lifeblood!" (shake fist in the air at this point).

Not a sensible, rational argument from the facts, of course (not many
political arguments are ;-), but certainly enough to put a premium on the
fuel you sell to off-worlders. These are the sort of consequential effects
that bring worlds alive for me.

Plot Hook: the adventurers are hired to convince the world that starship
fuel consumption doesn't significantly affect a world's eco-system. Their
opposition is a rabid politician and his minor (but vocal) party.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:24:17 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Humor: Gearheads take the fun out of Christmas

>It's been floating around the past week or so - thought I would share it
>with ya'll!
>
>E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
>http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
>IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
>The early bird gets the worm, BUT
>   the second mouse gets the cheese!
>
>>There are approximately two billion children (persons under 18) in the
>>world.  However, since Santa does not visit children of Muslim, Hindu,
>>Jewish or Buddhist (except maybe in Japan) religions, this reduces the
>>workload for Christmas night to 15% of the total, or 378 million (according
>>to the population reference bureau).  At an average (census) rate of 3.5
>>children per household, that comes to 108 million homes, presuming there is
>>at least one good child in each.
>>
>> Santa has about 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different
>>time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming east to west (which seems
>>logical).  This works out to 967.7 visits per second.  This is to say that
>>for each Christian household with a good child, Santa has around 1/1000 th
>>of a second to park the sleigh, hop out, jump down the chimney, fill the
>>stocking, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever
>>snacks have been left for him, get back up the chimney, jump into the sleigh
>>and get onto the next house.
>>
>> Assuming that each of these 108 million stops is evenly distributed around
>>the earth (which, of course, we know to be false, but will accept for the
>>purposes of our calculations), we are now talking about 0.78 miles per
>>household; a total trip of 75.5 million miles, not counting bathroom stops
>>or breaks.  This means Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per
>>second--3,000 times the speed of sound.  For purposes of comparison, the
>>fastest man made vehicle, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4
>>miles per second, and a conventional reindeer can run (at best) 15 miles per
>>hour.
>>
>> The payload of the sleigh adds another interesting element.  Assuming that
>>each child gets nothing more than a medium sized LEGO set (two pounds), the
>>sleigh is carrying over 500 thousand tons, not counting Santa himself.  On
>>land, a conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds.  Even
>>granting that the "flying" reindeer can pull 10 times the normal amount, the
>>job can't be done with eight or even nine of them---Santa would need 360,000
>>of them.  This increases the payload, not counting the weight of the sleigh,
>>another 54,000 tons, or roughly seven times the weight of the Queen
>>Elizabeth (the ship, not the monarch).
>>
>> A mass of nearly 600,000 tons travelling at 650 miles per second creates
>>normous air resistance - this would heat up the reindeer in the same fashion
>>as a spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere.  The lead pairof
>>reindeer would adsorb 14.3 quintillion joules of energy per second each.
>>
>> In short, they would burst into flames almost instantaneously, exposing the
>>reindeer behind them and creating deafening sonic booms in their wake. The
>>entire reindeer team would be vaporised within 4.26 thousandths of a second,
>>or right about the time Santa reached the fifth house on his trip..
>>
>> Not that it matters, however, since Santa, as a result of accelerating from
>>a dead stop to 650 m.p.s. in .001 seconds, would be subjected to
>>acceleration forces of 17,000 g's. A 250 pound Santa (which seems
>>ludicrously slim considering all the high calorie snacks he must have
>>consumed over the years) would be pinned to the back of the sleigh by
>>4,315,015 pounds of force, instantly crushing his bones and organs and
>>reducing him to a quivering blob of pink goo.
>>
>> Therefore, if Santa did exist, he's dead now.
>> Merry Christmas
>>
>>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to tas as: douglas@teleport.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-tas-9624X@telelists.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:31:00 +1300
From: pbroeder@wave.co.nz
Subject: Bored...

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------35DAF6349B68088BD35E8EDC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

sorry I'm bored and haven't got a digest in two days.
Obviously something needs posting - if its something else wrong there's
nothing I can do about It.

This is just going as a *.txt attachment - I don't know if the list
accepts messages like this so if who end up with 2 pages of trash blame
me.

So here is the product of a boring morning: Xt!!kghu (subsector P,
Grikr!ng sector)
Something I missed from below - The Vargr name for this Subsector is
'Knourrdhae'.

And yes, I promise not to post when I'm completely bored ever again, and
to actually edit what I've done...

- --------------35DAF6349B68088BD35E8EDC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="Xt.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Xt.txt"

Xt!!kghu  (subsector P, Grikr!ng Sector)
Circa 1116 Imperial

2632  Saevzoknang D321101-7 C  Lo Ni Po   A904   A0V  Va
2634  Uzzuen          C88A641-9 G  Ri Wa     A814   F9V  Va
2935  Gzekr'ruk rika!'xk BS0A2P0-F  O  Ic Na Ni Lo Va Wa  R400 Brown Dwarf   Kr
3238  Hkakrekuk     D7646R0-A    Ag Ni St Ri Cp   202  M6V  Kr

Xt!!kghu  subsector  contains 4 worlds with a total population of  11,439,696.
The highest Tech level is F at Gzekr'ruk  rika!'xk.
The multiplier column lists population multiplier, planetoid belts and gas giants.

Key: C = corsair base, G = Vargr naval base, O = K'kree naval outpost, St = steppeworld

Notes: Xt!!kghu  subsector sits in the middle of the largest rift in charted space and is, perhaps, the most God-forsaken spot known to any sapient species. 

2632  Saevzoknang D321101-7
Saevzoknang (pop 96) was origionally founded as a  mining colony run by the Saevzoknang mineral development corperation. It's still run by the company and is anything but a success. It's current 'prosperity' is due to the fact it is playing host to the Atveng planetary navy, a corsair group  from a K'kree occupied Vargr planet. Tensions between the corsairs and the Uzzuen deep space force, however have lately begun to cause a division of loyalties. The planet is reliant on Uzzuen's economic aid and on the Corsairs military aid. The Atveng Corsairs have 3  5,000 ton  destroyers of TL 14. Uzzuen maintains 6 TL 9 Mercenary cruisers here.
The amber zone rating relates to the fact that Saevzoknang is raided often by the K'kree navy.

2634  Uzzuen          C88A641-9
Uzzuen, with a population of  8,704,425  is a dying world. Unable to maintain its previous Tech level (TL 12) since 1035, the population has slowly shrunk as the people move away from the constant K'kree raids.
Think of this place as a hard times era Doomed world. The only industry busier than defence manufacturing is the construction of bulk transports. It's only a matter of time until the K'kree break through and bombard the world from orbit.
Again, the amber zone rating relates to the fact that Uzzuen is raided often by the K'kree navy.

2935 Gzekr'ruk rika!'xk BS0A2P0-F
Gzekr'ruk rika!'xk  is the permanent home to 456 very unhappy K'kree. Stuck in a series of tiny domes carved out from the ice, breathing air that smells like the downwind side of a burning oil refinery, obeying the dictates of a navy superior who has never come within 10 parsecs of the base, morale is completely at rock bottom. The K'kree continue to perform their duties (repairing and refueling Navy warships) until relieved. Incidence of cabin fever are rife amongst the support staff and warship crews - this is one reason why the K'kree navy are not using this lightly guarded route to attack around the Vargr defenders in Gn'hk'r sector.
Gzekr'ruk rika!'xk  is the sole planet orbiting a small brown dwarf star. The Translation for the official Name is 'Fortunate Wanderer'. The Vargr call it 'Gnokhs'. The support staff call it Hell. 
There are about 20 - 30 warships based here at any one time, none larger than 1000 tons. The planetary defence is limited to 2 batteries (8 launchers, 2 PEMS, AEMS arrays each) of missiles each.
The nominal law level for non-K'kree is F, and (despite having more trade codes than I've seen in one place before)is completely restricted to the navy.

3238  Hkakrekuk     D7646R0-A
Hkakrekuk was first founded by the passengers and crew of a misjumped colony vessel. Covered from pole to pole with vast rolling steppes broken only by warm shallow seas, Hkakrekuk is a planet the K'kree consider very pleasant, and K'kree on leave from the Gzekr'ruk rika!'xk  navy outpost consider it heaven
The nominal law level for non-K'kree is 9.

Adventure notes:( Things PC's can do here)
Uzzuen can only build J-1 ships but have a lot of empty space to cross. They'd pay well for the location of any comets the PC's could find.

Saevzoknang's argueing military commanders have seriously dented both of their charisma and disheartened all their followers. Some good role-play here could see the PC's leading a major military attack force.
Plenty of salvage and mining possiblities here too.

Gzekr'ruk rika!'xk  is a navy outpost off limits to Civilians and non-K'kree. If the PC's end up here they'll be arrested but there is no Brig on planet. They'll just be told to stay in their cabins and guards posted. 
Despite being prisoners they'll still be visited by everyone who can find a way in. (news is thin out here.) Just in time for another mass outbreak of K'kree insanity perhaps??



- --------------35DAF6349B68088BD35E8EDC--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1262
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, December 11 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1263



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

New arrival
High Guard optional rules for supply (long)
re: Space Missile Design
Dirty Snowball Theory
re: Two parsec jump
re: Sylean Battleship Refuelling
Re: Still looking
Re: is anybody out there
Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?
Re: FASA Deckplans
Re: Testing
Re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...
Re: Sylean Battleship Refuelling
Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
a web naming resource
Thwack! Thwack!
re: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)
Re: stock markets
Re: Still looking
re: Still looking
Re: Still looking
Re: G-forces in a crash
High Guard magazines
Re: Still looking
FS Design Request
re: Space Missile Design
RW Tramp Freighters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:18:25 -0800
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@UCSD.Edu>
Subject: New arrival

Fred;

Congratulations!!!  I hope the best for you and your family.  If your
daughter wants to be flight crew though, she might consider an application
to the Air Force or Naval Academies.

Jim Brewer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:21:36 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu>
Subject: High Guard optional rules for supply (long)

This is based on an earlier discussion here about fleet trains - combat
support vessels - in the High Guard system. 

I noticed that the HG ship form had a check box for "magazine", indicating
whether the ship had one or not. This box wasn't mentioned anywhere
I could find in the rules - were rules for supply once included or
considered, and later dropped? Since I like my fleets to have some
"realism" to them, I decided to work on some rules to add supply
considerations back in.

Anyway - HG and TCS abstract quite a few items, such as sensors,
crew casualties, even planetary conquests. I was considering the 
following method for abstracting starship supply capabilities.

- -----------------------------------------
1. Basic Rules: The first level of abstraction, the most basic method,
would be inclusion of required cargo space in starships. 

For every 1% of hull space dedicated to cargo, a warship can operate
away from a friendly starport for one month. A starship with less than
this amount (or that has exceeded it's cruising time) will start to suffer
a degradation in capabilities. The exact effects should vary by TU,
but some suggestions:

Reduced weapon factor rating (poor maintenance on targeting arrays,
burnt out weapon tubes, missile shortages). For each month out of
supply, every weapon type either suffers a loss of one factor or a loss
of 10% (rounded up) of total weapon batteries for that type (owner's
choice, but single-battery weapons must take the factor loss).

Reduced effective computer rating (computer rating includes sensors,
scanners, even some fire control. Any of these could be harmed by
lack of spares). Reduce computer effectiveness for combat _only_
by one for every two months out of supply. Ship can still jump with
original computer rating.

Reduced damage control effectiveness (equipment used up already.
Attempted damage control on systems that have been field-repaired
at least once, now harder to get working again). For every second
month out of supply, apply a -1 penalty to damage control rolls.

Reduced combat-readiness of fighters and other carried craft. For every
month out of supply, 10% (rounded up) of the current fighter compliment
is unavailable for action. 

Access to friendly starport for one week will reverse all these effects,
as will access to a full month's worth of supplies for every two months
out of supply.

Optional rule: Any system reduced to Zero rating due to being out of
supply must be repaired in a starport as if it were destroyed in battle.

- -------------------------------------
2. Combat support vessels - if you can't take it with you, bring someone
who can.

Combat support vessels can be tenders, ammunition ships, fleet
supply cargo ships, whatever level of detail you wish to include. 
A combat support vessel must provide the 1% per month cargo space
for supported ships. For example, a Free Trader acting as a fleet supply
auxiliary could use it's 161tn cargo bay to support itself (2tns) and
another 15900tns of warships for a month. It's even possible that it will 
only need 1tn (or less) of space for itself, as it isn't taking part in high-
intensity combat operations.

If the combat support ship can shuttle back and forth between a
friendly star port and the fleet, even 1% tonnage could supply that
fleet indefinitely. The longer the shuttle route, the more tonnage must
be allocated. Less than two jumps, 1% of tonnage is OK. Four jumps
would require 2% of tonnage. Figure 1% of tonnage required for every
two jumps...and note that this is jumps _by the support ship_. If
your fleet is Jump-4, on picket duty four parsecs from your starport,
a Free Trader supplying you will take four jumps to get there instead of
one and need 2% tonnage instead of 1%.

If a fleet loses it's combat support vessels, or needs to move away from
a location combat support was shuttling supplies to, it must immediatly
rate it's supply condition based on it's own cargo hull percentage and that
of combat support that came with it. If it has less than 1% hull tonnage
available, it will start to suffer from lack of supply within two weeks.

- ---------------------------------
3. Differing Supply Needs: we might run out of missiles, but we got
plenty o' laser bolts.

Some ships require more supplies than others. The 1% figure is
considered as an average.

Ships requiring more supplies:
- --------------------------------------------
Missile armed vessels
Sandcaster-equipped vessels
Vessels with large fighter compliments
Vessels with large marine/assault landing contingents

The following detail rules cover these differing supply needs.

a. All warships require a base 0.5% hull volume in cargo stores.
b. To this is added 10% of hull volume dedicated to missiles,
missile bays, or sandcasters.
c. To this is added 10% of hull volume of carried fightercraft, and
1% of hull volume of carried combat non-fightercraft (such as
marine assault shuttles). Any of these craft can be stowed (using 
no supplies), but would require some time (hours?) and expenditure
of a month's supplies to bring to combat readiness. As an optional
rule, these craft can be stowed using starport supplies before a sortie.
These craft would then not begin to use supplies until they were
deployed in combat. This would allow replacement fightercaft to be
easily transported to forward bases.
d. Marines themselves are considered supplied by the 2tns crew
quarters provided for each marine.

Example:

A 3000tn Frigate with all energy weapons requires 15tns of cargo for
a month of independent operations.

A 3000tn Missile Frigate with two 100tn missile bays and ten laser turrets
would require 35tns of cargo for a month of independent ops.

A 3000tn Escort Carrier with 80 15tn light fighters on board would
require 135tns of cargo space per month of independent ops.

- -------------------------------------
Now, these rules are easily tweaked to reflect YTU philosophies on
fleet logistics - just change the times frames, or add/reduce the
tonnage needed to support operations. Note that I'd consider the above
requirements to be "active duty" anyway - a scout ship performing
peaceful survey missions might need half or less, as would a merchant
ship (or even military ship) on a simple shuttle run. Active combat
operations would require at least the supply levels above, and some
(like planetary bombardment-style seiges) might eat up all the missile
stores available in the entire subsector.

Areas for these rules to be extended:

1. Rules for setting up a forward supply base
2. Rules for getting supplies from enemy fleets or captured bases
3. Better rules for recovering from loss of supply (possibly including
use of starport refit capabilities, or even requiring earlier annual
maintenance overhaul)

Comments?

Walt Smith
IMTU Geek Code:  tc++ tm tn t4- ?tg ?tt ru(+) ge+ 3i+() c+ -jt+(-) au(-) ?st
ls(-) pi+ ta- he>+ kk hi as++ va++ dr vr+(++) ne- so+ zh-- da+ sy  0601

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:40:30 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Space Missile Design

 
>how different is the FF&S2 missile design system from that in FF&S1?
The main difference is that FFS1 missiles used a miraculous solid fuel called
EAPlaC, so you didn't need an actual engine (and in theory they could be
capable of infinite acceleration.) FFS2 missiles use a vague nuclear rocket
called AND[1]. With the proper rocket formula it matches classic 6G12
performance, though.

Bruce
[1] This stands for "Advanced Nuclear Drive". My original name was
Highly Advanced Nuclear Drive for Weapons And VEhicles, but I thought better
of it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:08:37 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Dirty Snowball Theory

Imaginactra wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<dangerous brainstorm>
What about refilling the source? Could a world go out and grab something
the size of Hale - Bop and replenish the water source?
</dangerous brainstorm> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's often thought of when we talk about terraforming techniques - 
toss a couple ice asteroids at a dead planet to upgrade the hydrosphere
and either speed up or slow down the planetary rotation (depending on
which way the asteroids are moving).

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:56:55 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Two parsec jump

Keven Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You're still going to have tons of LHyd slamming against the walls of the 
tanks, and in the wrong direction from where the bracing is.  No intertial 
compensation inside the tanks, remember?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Seems to me that LHyd will end up with the same volume as the tanks,
expanding as it's pumped out - eventually getting down to trace
hydrogen gas in the tanks. There are baffles to keep the liquid movements
limited somewhat.

It's not the sloshing that's the problem - it's the wind shear. Something
you have in a gas giant (to a murderous extent), and don't have
in space combat.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:02:56 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Sylean Battleship Refuelling

Keven Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I did *NOT* say *ALL* Supp9 ships could skim.  I said *JUST ABOUT* 
everything could.  Learn to *READ* a post before replying to it, will you??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Temper, temper. Now why would I want to read your posts when
erroneous replies get me a much more entertaining response from you?

<G>

He is correct. Thing is, for higher tech HG combat I think full 
streamlining
in a config 1 or 2 hull is the best idea from a purely rules-oriented
design standpoint. The small defense you get against meson weaponry
is worth the small price increase. I don't like the idea from a "realism"
standpoint of million+ ton dreadnaughts coming in for a landing, though.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:31:05 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Still looking

Hi Loren,

OK, if I was to volunteer to do this, would it be possible for me to get my
hands on the DGP Solomani & Aslan material?  I've only got the CT Aslan &
Kkree books.

If it is, I'll put in a proper proposal.

Cheers, 
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

- ----------
> From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Still looking
> Date: Thursday, 10 December 1998 9:00
> 
> Still looking for a volunteer to write the second Alien races book for
> GURPS Traveller. You do realize that you get _paid_ for doing this sort
of
> thing?      : )
> 
> Where are all the Aslan fans?
> 
> 
> 
> Loren Wiseman
>      Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
>      Traveller Guru-in-Residence
>      SJ Games
>      LKW@IO.COM
>      (512) 447-7866 VOX
>      (512) 447-1144 FAX
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:44:53 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: is anybody out there

At 11:32 AM 10/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I don't seem to have received any mail from TML for the last
>couple of days...so i'm sending a thinly disguised test
>message to see if it bounces back to me.
>
>thanks for you patience
>-- 

        Hi, Christopher...  You had me fooled...  =)
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:22:59 PST
From: "Colin Paddock" <su_liam@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

________________________________________________________
- ------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Question:habitable moons of gas giants possible?

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>> Is it possible for a gas giant planet in the habitable zone of a 
star, to have
>> a moon with a breathable oxy-nitro atmosphere and liquid water?
>
>> I was under the assumption that a gas giant in the habitable zone 
would lose
>> it's gas atmosphere (hydrogen-ammonia boils off?) and no longer have 
the mass
>> to attract a big enough moon to have enough gravity to hold an 

>I mentioned this in my "Nature of Hydrogen" post.  Gas Giants won't 
>form until you
>go out past the "Ice line"  The "Ice Line" is out beyond the 
>habitable zone of a star.  However, Gas Giants can put out some heat 
>so the moons could be in the
>habitable zone of the Gas Giant rather than the star itself.

- ------------------------------

	Actually, I would have to disagree with this. The theory seems good, 
but it doesn't match reality.  Such stars as 51 Pegasi show that not 
only do gas giants exist within the habitable zone they exist much 
closer to the star than the habitable zone.

	There is a theory that such planets formed beyond the "ice line" 
and were dragged by some mechanism into the inner system.

	While I don't know whether such a planet could retain any moons, it 
seems at least remotely possible that it could have captured some 
planets it passes on the way in. It could also have accreted new moons, 
though this seems less likely.


- ---------------------------------------------------------

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:29:14 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: FASA Deckplans

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Rob Prior wrote:

> >Please....Please....PLEASE get permission and post the things...I love to
> >collect deck plans!  As an aside; if you do get permission to do this;
> >can you
> >make some paper copies for me (either 15 or 25 mm), and snail mail them
> >to me?
> >I will, of course pay you for your time and expenses....
> 
> I _used_ to have permission from FASA, but when they sold the copyright
> (to Seeker, IIRC) that permission was explicitly revoked. (I got a phone
> call from the owner of Seeker to make certain I understood the change in
> ownership.)
> 
> So a goo dplace to start is whoever owns Seeker now...
> 

Is there still anything from Seeker (SGS) available? I only got the
Empress Marava and Subsidized Merchent deckplans and wonder if there are
still others out somewhere.
Also as I've got the Adventure Class Ships, I'd like to know what
deckplans fasa also brought out for Traveller.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:35:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.COM>
Subject: Re: Testing

> Will the server post whatever messages were sent during the outage?
> 
> ObTrav:  Obviously, this is an example of how lack of redundancy in the
> X-boat system would seriously SNAFU Imperial communications.

Most messages should have been held in the inbound queue on a machine
and should be processed normally, but . . .

Rob

- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:48:48 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...

In a message dated 12/10/98 6:32:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Diespamer@aol.com writes:

<< ..baby is doing well, active, alert, eating, and doing the things that
result
 from eating...
 
 ...Mother is recovering from surgery...
 
 ...Father is looking a bit frazzled at the moment...
  >>

CONGRADS!!!!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:54:16 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship Refuelling

In a message dated 12/10/98 8:07:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
smithw@hartwick.edu writes:

<<  The small defense you get against meson weaponry
 is worth the small price increase. I don't like the idea from a "realism"
 standpoint of million+ ton dreadnaughts coming in for a landing, though.
  >>

That's why I use em.....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:52:08 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem

In a message dated 12/10/98 7:46:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
summers@alum.mit.edu writes:

<<  hard to damage, then non-jump, slower
 ships become "undamageable".
  >>

that's why HG had an armor value cap (TL = max #). Otherwise SDB's become
rocks...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:52:24 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: a web naming resource

I started to create the history of a planet for an upcoming campaign I'll be
running, and I had decided that the Solomani conquerors had renamed the
various Vilani cities on the planet in an Arabic flavor. The Solomani names
that would be introduced into the culture would be Arabic in flavor as
well...

Then I started reading "Globalhead" (a collection of Bruce Sterling's short
stories) and I began feeling... inadequate to say the least. Some of his
stories just have so many names from so many cultures.

Fear not! Anyone who happens to want or need lists upon lists of Solomani
names, just point your browser to:

http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users///smhawkin/

Go to the bottom, and you should find a link from which you can select
different regions of the world. I could spend a whole day there myself. A
very nice site with many, many links to other site's. I've found the links
to Kate Monk's name pages to be most useful (usually you get a bit of
cultural info, followed by whatever naming rules are used in that culture).

Hope the rest of you find this site as useful as I have been finding it!


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:40:28 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Thwack! Thwack!

Hey!

Is this thing on?

Fred Kiesche
(Traveller Since 1977)
(Father Since 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:21:07 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)

 
A really interesting question is to think how to integrate these into FFW _
either abstractly (requiring a J-3 or so "supply line" back to a friendly
naval base) or concretly ("supply squadrons"). It could change the
flavour of the game considerably (and for the better, since the pile-everything-
into-one-hex strategy becomes less viable.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:14:49 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: stock markets

  FWIW, the 2300 AD list had an extensive discussion about stock markets
and speed of commo in trading last year (roughly May 25-Jun 3 `97).

  Their archives should be on MPGN. (?)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:33:58 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Still looking

Loren Wiseman wrote
>
>Where are all the Aslan fans?
>


Trapped up the in trees from all the Vargr fans.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:34:33 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: re: Still looking

Loren Wiseman wrote
>
>Where are all the Aslan fans?
>


Trapped up in the trees from all the Vargr fans.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:14:54 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Still looking

...
>Still looking for a volunteer to write the second Alien races book for
>GURPS Traveller. You do realize that you get _paid_ for doing this sort of
>thing?      : )
>
>Where are all the Aslan fans?

  Hey, if Kenji writes it does that mean the Sayat can become an
official G:T Minor Race? :|

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:50:03 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: G-forces in a crash

From what I have read, humans are fairly G tolerant for Very short periods
of time.
It is flying debris that tend to kill in plane crashes.
You survive the impact, but someone's carry on tears your head off.

Life sucks

TV

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:21:49 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: High Guard magazines

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)
...
>I noticed that the HG ship form had a check box for "magazine", indicating
>whether the ship had one or not. This box wasn't mentioned anywhere
>I could find in the rules - were rules for supply once included or
>considered, and later dropped?

  HG 1ed.; no magazine installed, no missile bombardment of planets allowed.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:11:43 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Still looking

> Still looking for a volunteer to write the second Alien races book for
> GURPS Traveller. You do realize that you get _paid_ for doing this sort
of
> thing?      : )

Hey, I would volunteer to do it, but my personnel feeling might get in the
way...

> Where are all the Aslan fans?

Here, here...

> Loren Wiseman

Legate Legion,  Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

We are Microsoft of Borg.  Your distinctive capabilities will be adapted to
service us.  Resistance is futile.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:01:37 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: FS Design Request

        Ian,
        Could you talk to Ditzie and ask her to check if Famile has a line
of MRL-Like Plasma weapons....  You know;  hail a coupld hundred
self-propelled rounds down on a TZ in a few seconds as a method of
convincing OpFor GroPos to play somewhere else?

        If so, could you get her to roll the FF&S dat down to CT:Mercenary
stats...  I've got a bunch of 7'8"-tall T-Rex's planning on invading UN
Space soon who own something similar and I wanna see what it looks like...
The TL is 13-14-ish, I think...  Not sure where they got 'em given they are
only TL~12.
        The Ambasador said something about oweing Ditzie a frieghter-load of
bullion...  know anything about that?

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:33:42 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: re: Space Missile Design

At 17:40 10/12/98 -0800, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

>The main difference is that FFS1 missiles used a miraculous solid fuel
>called EAPlaC, so you didn't need an actual engine (and in theory they could 
>be capable of infinite acceleration.) FFS2 missiles use a vague nuclear
rocket called >AND[1]. With the proper rocket formula it matches classic
6G12 performance, though.

Where does the 6G12 performance come from? IOW why is it 'Classic'? TNE
missiles range from 7G7 to 12G12, and EAPlaC has a maximum of 13G13 (using
FF&S1's dubious design system).

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:00:38 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RW Tramp Freighters

  Amusingly enough, a review of a book about shipboard life travelling
on real world tramp freighters just showed up:  Douglas Fetherling, 
"Running Away to Sea: Round the World on a Tramp Freighter".

  Also see <www.freighterworld.com/places/atw.html>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1263
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, December 11 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1264



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Yeah it's aliiiiive!
Re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...
Re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...
Re: Testing strategy for FS' new Combat Helicopter
Re: Still looking
The Hand
The Hand
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1258
Re: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1261
Re: Space Missile Design 
FFW Supply Rules (was re: High Guard optional rules...)
Re: Humor: Gearheads take the fun out of Christmas
Re: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1262
PE Spreadsheet v1.50
Re: Is there an armour problem ?
re: Space Missile Design
re: High Guard optional rules: supply
re: High Guard optional rules: supply
High Guard Magazines
Re: AND powered missiles
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1259

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 06:14:18 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yeah it's aliiiiive!

Ahhhh CRAP!!!!!!!!  I knew I should've kept that VIRUS I was working on 
in my isolated system.

;^)

JimC

- ----Original Message Follows----
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:27:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Yeah it's aliiiiive!
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

The TML X-boat must have misjumped...
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:10:43 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...

Diespamer@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Laura Elizabeth Kiesche
> Future Traveller Player
> Future First Woman on Mars
> (better get that application to Cornell and NASA finished...)
> 
> December 2, 1998 at 7:12 PM
> 8 pounds, 6 ounces
> 21.25 inches
> 
> ...baby is doing well, active, alert, eating, and doing the things that result
> from eating...
> 
> ...Mother is recovering from surgery...


Congratulations, Fred (and Mother!)  You'll have your hands full!

Blessings!

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 06:11:11 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...

Congrats!!

Welcome to the midnight Traveller's diaper run Society.

;-)

JimC

- ----Original Message Follows----
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:09:24 EST
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

Greetings All:

Fairly hard on the heels of Mr. A's. recent announcemnt...

Laura Elizabeth Kiesche
Future Traveller Player
Future First Woman on Mars
(better get that application to Cornell and NASA finished...)

December 2, 1998 at 7:12 PM
8 pounds, 6 ounces
21.25 inches

...baby is doing well, active, alert, eating, and doing the things that 
result
from eating...

...Mother is recovering from surgery...

...Father is looking a bit frazzled at the moment...

Fred Kiesche
(Traveller Since 1977)
(Father Since 1998)



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:04:02
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Testing strategy for FS' new Combat Helicopter

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: Testing strategy of FS' new Combat Helicopter
>
>
>Have you considered a Janus-style mount?  If you set it to fire
>fore-and-aft simultaneously, you might be able to get the recoil to
>cancel out.
>

What ? And reduce the plasma output by half ?

This is *Famile Spofulam* dammit ... Hengabar's explicit directions are 'If
it flies, we can ship it'.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:11:14 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Still looking

For those who want to try to write Aliens 2, point your browsers at:

  http://www.sjgames.com/general/author

And follow the attached instructions :*> However I would warn that this is not 
an undertaking to be embarked upon lightly. Its a full on commercial 
undertaking, with legal penalties and the whole 8.23m. I'm considering putting 
forwards a proposal myself, but I'd advise thinking very carefully first. You're 
offering to write 90,000 words to a **tight** deadline.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:40:56 -0500
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: The Hand

What do you this is attached to this?

http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/downloads/AlienHand.gif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:42:59 -0500
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: The Hand

What do you think is attached to this?

http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/downloads/AlienHand.gif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:41:59 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1258

> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:49:26 +0000
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> Subject: re: High Guard: looking for errata/changes
> 
> Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>wrote:
> 
> >I'm looking for errata or additions or changes for High Guard;
> >please e-mail me off the list, since HG seems to be out of favor.
> 
> I've seen more HG on the list in the last two months than any time in the
> last two years (except maybe in the Fighters Flamefest). I'd be interested
> in seeing any errata.
> 
> Did you catch my HG fusion rocket post?

Um...  no.  OOPS.  Fusion rockets, huh?  Well, that would be interesting
with my 300t TL 7 defense pickets...

- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:19:35 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)
...
>For every 1% of hull space dedicated to cargo, a warship can operate
>away from a friendly starport for one month. A starship with less than
>this amount (or that has exceeded it's cruising time) will start to suffer
>a degradation in capabilities. The exact effects should vary by TU,
>but some suggestions:

  Looks nice. Perhaps an expansion of what constitutes a month of operations
requiring average replenishment - as you point out high intensity combat (a
single battle or extensive attritional action) will require more resupply
than an uncontested blockade operation.

  The HG tonnage allocated to Service crew (e.g., the shops on a Kinunir)
would cover the first such increment, and hopefully support vessels for
one or more such would remain in reserve on hand.

  There may have been a similar article in a JTAS, but IIRC it dealt more
with stockpiling routine maintenance spares and supplies for personnel to
allow unsupported long range missions.

...
>Optional rule: Any system reduced to Zero rating due to being out of
>supply must be repaired in a starport as if it were destroyed in battle.

  Applies only to facilities required and not to cash cost of repair?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:44:49 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1261

> From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: High Guard: looking for errata/changes
> 
> Kevin Walsh's Free Trader Beowulf page has a number of new options for HG
> (although I wish the Sensors options were in a standard txt file or some
> such; none of my word processors can open whatever they're written in).

Hmm... I may have missed that file - I use the sensor material out of
Traveller's Digest #7...

> is High Guard out of favor? seems to me a fair number of HG designs have
> been posted here as of not too long ago. I would also be interested in any
> errata as it becomes available.

I use it because I can design a big (100kt) ship in an hour.
FFS scared me, and FFS2 scared me more.  I didn't like MT's ship design
system, much less FFS...


DonM.

- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:55:25 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Space Missile Design 

> At 17:40 10/12/98 -0800, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
> >The main difference is that FFS1 missiles used a miraculous solid fuel
> >called EAPlaC, so you didn't need an actual engine (and in theory they could 
> >be capable of infinite acceleration.) FFS2 missiles use a vague nuclear
> rocket called >AND[1]. With the proper rocket formula it matches classic
> 6G12 performance, though.
> 
> Where does the 6G12 performance come from? IOW why is it 'Classic'? TNE
> missiles range from 7G7 to 12G12, and EAPlaC has a maximum of 13G13 (using
> FF&S1's dubious design system).

That's because Mayday/CT missiles were 6G12's.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:51:00 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: FFW Supply Rules (was re: High Guard optional rules...)

Bruce Allan Macintosh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A really interesting question is to think how to integrate these into FFW _
either abstractly (requiring a J-3 or so "supply line" back to a friendly
naval base) or concretly ("supply squadrons"). It could change the
flavour of the game considerably (and for the better, since the pile-everything-
into-one-hex strategy becomes less viable.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm thinking that a mixture of both might be appropriate.

Give each base a "Support Radius" dependent on it's starport class,
presence of a Naval Base, perhaps even it's population and tech level.
Perhaps include some rule for taking over enemy bases and using
them for supply - say they give you Support Radius zero the turn you
take them, and the radius goes up by one every turn you hold it.
Maybe even some rules for establishing forward bases in systems 
with no or minimal starports.

Have this Support Radius drop to zero if the system is under seige - 
it can still support friendly fleets contesting the system, but merchant
marine ops will be curtailed.

I'm not sure what the Supply Radius should be for most bases,
but I think I'd keep it pretty low - perhaps the best base would have
a J-4 radius, the worst a J-0 radius, most coming up somewhere
in between. 

Create "SupportRons" (or even "CombatSupportRons") to accompany
the deep-penetration forces. Base them on TankRons for availability
and combat abilities (or rather, lack thereof), have them provide a mobile
supply base with a Support Radius of zero.

Have some purpose-built commerce raiders that are always considered
to be "in supply" - such as the Azhanti High Lightning Frontier Cruisers. 
Perhaps extend this special ability to ScoutRons.

_Imperium_ had some pretty basic rules about the effects of being
out of supply, it boiled down to attack/defense disadvantages and
out-of-supply ships couldn't perform high-intensity missile fire.
I'll have to review the FFW combat rules to come up with appropriate
penalties for being out of supply under it's system.

Just to keep things simple, I'd have ships be "Supplied" or "Out of Supply",
and not increase or  decrease the penalties based on how long the unit
has been out of supply.

Another question: how many squadrons should a base (or SupportRon)
be able to support?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:33:48 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Humor: Gearheads take the fun out of Christmas

Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> >It's been floating around the past week or so - thought I would share it
> >with ya'll!
> >
<snip>>
> >>
> >> A mass of nearly 600,000 tons travelling at 650 miles per second creates
> >>normous air resistance - this would heat up the reindeer in the same
> >>fashion as a spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere.  The lead pair > >>of reindeer would adsorb 14.3 quintillion joules of energy per second > >>each.
> >>
Ditzie:  Are you taking notes?

> >> In short, they would burst into flames almost instantaneously, exposing
> >the
> >>reindeer behind them and creating deafening sonic booms in their wake. The
> >>entire reindeer team would be vaporised within 4.26 thousandths of a
> >second,
> >>or right about the time Santa reached the fifth house on his trip..
> >>
> >> Not that it matters, however, since Santa, as a result of accelerating
> >from
> >>a dead stop to 650 m.p.s. in .001 seconds, would be subjected to
> >>acceleration forces of 17,000 g's. A 250 pound Santa (which seems
> >>ludicrously slim considering all the high calorie snacks he must have
> >>consumed over the years) would be pinned to the back of the sleigh by
> >>4,315,015 pounds of force, instantly crushing his bones and organs and
> >>reducing him to a quivering blob of pink goo.
> >>
**thumbing through FF&S2**

From what I can find, the highest TL addressed on any chart in FF&S2 is
TL-21.  OTOH, the highest TL addressed on the inertil compensation table
is only TL-15.  Obviously, Santa has access to TL-22+ technology,
enabling sufficient compensation for this acceleration.  Further, at
TL-22+, Reindeer Power Plant Efficiencies can conceivably rise to the
levels needed to power Santa's sleigh at the required velocities.  The
post above also doesn't take into account the time-dilation effects of
near-C travel.

In short, it's the gearheads who will _save_ this Christmas icon.

For those who celebrate any holidays during this time of year, Happy
Holidays!


> >

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:55:24 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Optional rule: Any system reduced to Zero rating due to being out of
>supply must be repaired in a starport as if it were destroyed in battle.

  Applies only to facilities required and not to cash cost of repair?
>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'd say the HG fleet maintenance costs would cover the cash,
so yes, apply this only to facilities required. If you got your hands
on an enemy Battlecruiser that had been lost for a year behind your
lines, you might have to pay through the nose to get it back into
fighting trim.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:05:02 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1262

> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:41:40 -0500
> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> Subject: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)
> 
> This is based on an earlier discussion here about fleet trains - combat
> support vessels - in the High Guard system.
> 
> I noticed that the HG ship form had a check box for "magazine", indicating
> whether the ship had one or not. This box wasn't mentioned anywhere
> I could find in the rules - were rules for supply once included or
> considered, and later dropped?

I was told those rules were later modified into Striker rules, and as
such were incorporated into the MT system, by supposedly *in the know*
folks at a GenCon in the Eighties...

> For every 1% of hull space dedicated to cargo, a warship can operate
> away from a friendly starport for one month. A starship with less than
> this amount (or that has exceeded it's cruising time) will start to suffer
> a degradation in capabilities. The exact effects should vary by TU,
> but some suggestions:

I'm curious as to why 1%.  Not questioning it, just wondering what 
lays behind that decision... 

> Ships requiring more supplies:
> - --------------------------------------------
> Missile armed vessels
> Sandcaster-equipped vessels
> Vessels with large fighter compliments
> Vessels with large marine/assault landing contingents

vessels with significant frozen watches? does the frozen watch
degrade from being out of supply?

> Comments?

Yes - I like this.  I like this a lot.  Anything that gives CARGO space
a real purpose on a military ship is good.

> ------------------------------
>
> >DGP sold their rights to Paul Sanger (Seattle). He also picked up the FASA
> >material, and he may have the Seeker material.
> 
> That's _Roger_ Sanger <spit>.

Sigh...


DonM.

- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:56:01 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: PE Spreadsheet v1.50

I've just completed version 1.50 of my PE spreadsheet. This version fixes a 
couple of bugs (stationing units offworld decreased your expenses!) and adds a 
trade codes sheet (thanks to Jonathan Draper <jdraper@clara.net> for that) 
which calculates each worlds initial Resources, Infrastructure and Culture 
scores.

I've sent an updated copy to BITS and hopefully (pretty please Dom) it should 
soon be available at:

   http://www.bits.org.uk/


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:58:44
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Is there an armour problem ?

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
>
>Well, during playtest my group did find it hard to armor
>large ships against their own weapons.  However, when you look
>at the designs, if make a jump capable ship with good
>maneuverability hard to damage, then non-jump, slower
>ships become "undamageable".

Undamageable with or without meson guns ?

Incidentally, my draft design for the Imperial Moot Ratification class
(circa 30 000t TL12 pocket battleships) were designed to have about 40% of
their surface area dedicated to Meson Screen emitters.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:19:08 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Space Missile Design

 
>Where does the 6G12 performance come from? IOW why is it 'Classic'? TNE
>missiles range from 7G7 to 12G12, and EAPlaC has a maximum of 13G13 (using
>FF&S1's dubious design system).

For some reason I thought this is what Mayday/LBB Missiles had - 6G12 - but
it occurs to me that I'm probably misbehaving. Anyway, it seemed like a good
compromise...EAPlaC didn't really have a maximum acceleration (you could
implicitly make your missile 1200G12 if you like - it would just accelerate
for a tiny fraction of a turn), so by definition all FFS1 missiles came
out as xGx.

6G12 seems like a reasonable value but I would be willing to hear a case for
12G12, since I made up the numbers anyway (although then you end up with 6G15
standard missiles too.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:11:14 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: High Guard optional rules: supply

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Looks nice. Perhaps an expansion of what constitutes a month of operations
requiring average replenishment - as you point out high intensity combat (a
single battle or extensive attritional action) will require more resupply
than an uncontested blockade operation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was approaching this first from a design point of view - it really bothered
me to see multi-kton warships with no cargo space in Supp 9 (Fighting
Ships). I wanted some basic rules of thumb for designing a fleet so you
could keep logistics in mind.

Perhaps the 1% per month is too high a level of abstraction?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:21:10 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: High Guard optional rules: supply

Don McKinney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> For every 1% of hull space dedicated to cargo, a warship can operate
> away from a friendly starport for one month. A starship with less than
> this amount (or that has exceeded it's cruising time) will start to suffer
> a degradation in capabilities. The exact effects should vary by TU,
> but some suggestions:

I'm curious as to why 1%.  Not questioning it, just wondering what 
lays behind that decision... 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's mostly a wild guess. I'm not even sure what would be in the 1%
of cargo space. Spare parts, lubricant, missiles, other expendables.

It doesn't look too onerous, a percentage-based requirement is pretty
easy to do in HG, that was pretty much it. It could use some playtesting.

Don again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
vessels with significant frozen watches? does the frozen watch
degrade from being out of supply?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I hadn't thought about it, but probably not. They're not going to get any
more frozen, right?  

I recall a THUDD SDB design, the entire crew was supposed to go into
low berths, the computer would wake them up when a red alert
sounded. Such a vessel would last a long time on a 1% of hull tonnage
supply locker, IMO.

Don again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Comments?

Yes - I like this.  I like this a lot.  Anything that gives CARGO space
a real purpose on a military ship is good.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Glad to get some positive feedback. Thank you.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:57:56 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: High Guard Magazines

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  HG 1ed.; no magazine installed, no missile bombardment of planets allowed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Got 2nd ed. myself - did 1st edition specify (cost/displacement) what
it meant by "magazine"?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:43:39 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: AND powered missiles

At 16:45 10/12/98 -0800, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
>>I dont think that cuts the mustard. If we double the thrust and take the
>>burn time down to 28 minutes or so, it's acceleration ranging between 3 and
>>5 gees as fuel burns, which is better.
>
>If you don't put any armour on it at all - which you might was well not,
>since AF20 is just decorative - and use the ln(mf) formulat to calculate
>G-turns (since the missile's weight changes significantly as it burns fuel),
>a 6G12 missile fits nicely into the standard 0.5 dTon size with laser commo.
>Not a conincidence. 

OK, I realise that this is probably better put to the technical list, but
seeing as I saw it here: what is the ln(mf) formula, and how can I use it
given the information in FF&S to work out the G-turns a rocket has? Also
does anyone know how far off the results you get using the method used in
FF&S1 (average the empty and full accelerations) tend to be?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:54:36 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1259

> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:28:12 EST
> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> Subject: Re: High Guard: looking for errata/changes
> 
> In a message dated 12/8/98 12:32:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> dmckinne@itds.com writes:
> 
> << I'm looking for errata or additions or changes for High Guard;
>  please e-mail me off the list, since HG seems to be out of favor.
>   >>
> 
> which edition; first or second? (hint; 1st has 10 ton bays and no
> battleriders. I use 2nd)

I have only 2nd edition... In fact, I just assumed that anyone who
had the first ed. HG would have the 2nd as well...


DonM.
 
> ------------------------------
> If the purchaser of DGP assumed the outstanding debts at the time.
> (Usually done but not always).  And it depends on what form of
> business organization DGP is, i.e., corporation, partnership, proprietorship.
> 
> Bloo

[insert reminder about TSR buying SPI...]
 
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 17:00:21 -0600
> From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
> Subject: Still looking
> 
> Still looking for a volunteer to write the second Alien races book for
> GURPS Traveller. You do realize that you get _paid_ for doing this sort of
> thing?      : )
> 
> Where are all the Aslan fans?

/* RANT ON */
We're horrified at how you've warped the Marches.
The entire thing looks like Star Wars now.  And whoever stuck the 
crappy Alien from my SpaceMaster book in there and got paid for it
should be shot. 
/* RANT OFF */

> This effectively means I've hit the break-even point - so I will be
> releasing the manuscripts for inclusion on Bryan Borich's Classic Traveller
> CD if/when it comes out late next year (doesn't mean they become PD however).

Congratulations! 

> Anyways - my thanks to everyone on the TML who have helped with and
> supported this project  - wish me luck as I start the actual printing and
> shipping of the supplements in the next four weeks.
> 
> Merry Christmas,
> Paul Sanders
> 
> P.S. And let me say one last time (to stem the sudden flow of 'fan' mail) -
> I am not, nor have I ever been, associated with the former vapor-ware
> publisher known as Roger Sanger :)

Ouch.  I have been associated with him, and he's having some family problems
right now.  Keep the faith.  Well, try at least.


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1264
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Saturday, December 12 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1265



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Further BITS information re: 101 Series in the US
Re: High Guard optional rules: supply
rail guns
Re: Colonising hellholes
Type MK HG v2
RE: The Hand
Re: Is there an armour problem ?
signing off for a little while
Re: High Guard optional rules: supply
re: High Guard optional rules: supply
Re: Still looking
GURPS Aliens in Traveller
The Final Babylon Station?
Re: Space Missile Design
Re: Testing strategy for FS' new Combat Helicopter
re: Space Missile Design
re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...
Re: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)
Re: G-forces in a crash
BITS website update...
SANGER not SANDERS
Looking for hints or walkthrus...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:57:27 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Further BITS information re: 101 Series in the US

Andy Lilly asked me to release the following request to you all:

____

It seems that since our announcement on Monday 7th December 1998 that SJG
would be stocking BITS products for mail order, they have had rather a lot
of advance orders. As they have not yet received the BITS shipment and thus
do not have the appropriate catalog entries against which to log the
orders, they cannot yet process these orders. I would therefore ask, on
behalf of SJG, that buyers hold off on orders until January.

Many thanks for your enthusiastic response, however!

SJG suggest that you check the Daily Illuminator
(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) in January for the official announcement
saying that they have the first stocks for sale.

____

Many thanks,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:49:14 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules: supply

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> Steven Hudson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>   Looks nice. Perhaps an expansion of what constitutes a month of operations
> requiring average replenishment - as you point out high intensity combat (a
> single battle or extensive attritional action) will require more resupply
> than an uncontested blockade operation.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I was approaching this first from a design point of view - it really bothered
> me to see multi-kton warships with no cargo space in Supp 9 (Fighting
> Ships). I wanted some basic rules of thumb for designing a fleet so you
> could keep logistics in mind.
> 
> Perhaps the 1% per month is too high a level of abstraction?
> 
> Walt Smith

I'm not sure it is too high a level of abstraction, but it did need some
descriptor.  What are the supplies needed?  I saw the listing you had
(or someone had) of expendable ordnance, and that is a good start. 
Additionally, what would be the repair parts that would be necessary for
self-sustainment?  Another thing might be the war material on board.  I
would anticipate X number of days of supply (food, ammunition, barrier
materials, repairs, etc.) for carried troops/fighters.  

Supp 9 doesn't have any dedicated troop carriers does it?  Are there
ships designed for that purpose out there?  I mean the Multi-kton
Assault ship....

This is a good thread...  Thanks.

Greg Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 06:30:01 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: rail guns

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BE24CF.AE153C10
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01BE24CF.AE153C10"


- ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01BE24CF.AE153C10
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For those interested have a look at the following link

http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/sd03/el.html

Dave

- ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01BE24CF.AE153C10
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>For those interested have a look at =
the=20
following link</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/sd03/el.html">http://www.utexa=
s.edu/research/cem/sd03/el.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff">Dave</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01BE24CF.AE153C10--

- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BE24CF.AE153C10
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="=?iso-8859-1?B?QMUudXJs?="
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="=?iso-8859-1?B?QMUudXJs?="

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/sd03/el.html
Modified=00E985351225BE0199

- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BE24CF.AE153C10--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:20:01
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

>From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
>Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem
>
>  OK, this is doable. (And makes for a rather interesting locale too.)
>But the main point is _why_ would anyone do something like this? For one,
>even with the colossal economic might of the Imperium behind you, the
>initial investment of starting all the hundreds (at least) colonies like
>this on the canon starmaps would eat you alive considering the need to
>import the starting water oxygen topsoil etc. and to excavate hundreds of
>cubic klicks of cave. And with a garden world with a couple of hundred
>inhabitants right next door (several examples exist) the logic really
>starts to stink.
>

The short answer is 'exploitable export resource'.

If you assume 1000 miners and life support techs, each with 10 dtons of
gear, topsoil, LOx etc, being transported 10 parsecs at Cr 4000 per parsec
for passengers and Cr 800 per parsec for freight, you get a cost of MCr 48.
Add another KCr 20 per dton in actual cost of gear, and it goes up to MCr
250 or so.

Pretty easy to amortise that, especially if you can import food from a
nearby world with a biosphere.

Of course, as time goes on, people regard the world as 'home', start to put
down roots, raise families, dig more caves, build or import more life
support gear etc etc.

I mean, with all due respect, Finland seems a much less nice place to live
than a number of other places I can think of, but people stay there ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:48:23 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Type MK HG v2

  Here's a "refined" HG attempt at the Type MK:

Mora-class Cargo Carrier
                MK-B714442-090000-80000-0     MCr 1296.38      3000 tons
        batteries bearing   1     1                             TL=15
                batteries   1     1                             Crew=27
Passengers=30. Cargo=1026. Fuel=1320. EP=120. Agility=1. One Shuttle. One
Launch.

  The design still falls short of the 1200 tons of cargo listed in SMC;
Embarked craft is now 1x 40 ton shuttle and 1x 10 ton launch; one small
craft pilot has been dropped. The laser battery has also been reduced.

  Where things get exciting is when you start designing some of the ship's
fuel tankage as "large craft" (consisting solely of fuel tankage) attached
to the main hull and switched at company facilities for empty cargo boxes
(ideally, identical 300 ton boxes already fitted with internal demountable
tanks). If the company can get these big boxes with pop-off ends and install/
remove the demountable tanks fast enough then no interchangeable hull pieces
would be required - a substantial savings.

  IAC, empties could be shuttled around on under-booked MK's (if that occurs
often) or via a smallish tender design. At MCr 15 for a 300 ton tankage sub-unit
this may be worth stocking and shuffling about for the extra haulage capacity.

  What has to be avoided (and should, IMO be disallowed) is the "after-market"
installation of tankage as drop tanks*. Even after the 50% config modifier the
internal tankage of the design costs KCr 500 per Dt, while drop tanks cost only
KCr 1/Dt for essentially the same commercial utility.

 * the _major_ flaw with the CE, IMO - the fourth hardpoint is an "oops",
but the tankage issue implies that almost every civilian design in the game
is poorly designed and allows this disgustingly twisted workaround.

  While the 1200 of 3000 Dt cargo load cannot be achieved with J-4 standards
any of the above would allow short hauls to be increased by 300+ tons, giving
an average much closer to the specified capacity.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 19:14:06 -0000
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: The Hand

Paul Schirf
>
> What do you think is attached to this?
>
> http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/downloads/AlienHand.gif

Hmmm...

Don't have a clue but I think I'd prefer to see it first
very far away and through the scope of my Gauss rifle.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:29:17 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Is there an armour problem ?

Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:58:44, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>

>>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
>>
>>Well, during playtest my group did find it hard to armor
>>large ships against their own weapons.  However, when you look
>>at the designs, if make a jump capable ship with good
>>maneuverability hard to damage, then non-jump, slower
>>ships become "undamageable".
>
>Undamageable with or without meson guns ?

Will, obviously without, since armor doesn't stop meson guns.  But
the same factor (not having to push the weight around) would
probably let you load up on meson screens.

We did postulate that a ship could target the ships sensors
(do densiometers have to be on the outside of the ship?  I
guess neutrino detectors don't, could you target with those?)
and where the guns stick out and then take you time boring a
hole in it.  But for game play purposes I wouldn't make
armor better.

Also, as David Pulver pointed out on the Pyramid GT message board,
there is a problem that small ships can have a problem damaging
each other if armor is made better.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:03:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: signing off for a little while

I'm signing off until mid-January.  I'm going to explore strange new
worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations ... well, I'm going to
Thailand on vacation.  See you guys next year.  

- --Glenn




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:38:34 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules: supply

At 01:49 PM 11/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Supp 9 doesn't have any dedicated troop carriers does it?  Are there
>ships designed for that purpose out there?  I mean the Multi-kton
>Assault ship....
>
>This is a good thread...  Thanks.
>
>Greg Smith
>
        Hi, Greg...  there is a 50-ton Troop Ship in Supp 9, carries 50
troops and 10dtons cargo.  I designed a 200-dton jump-capable Assault Lander
for my TNEC campaign, that hauls a full platoon and two ATV's and can beat
down its own LZ.  I have never seen a "Marine Assault Ship" of any kind...
All though it wouldn't be hard...  pick any liner and armor it a bit...

        Hmmm...  Maybe that's what I'll do tonight...  build a TL11 MAS,
complete with "Striker" add-ons such as assault capsules.  I am supposed to
have such a thing in TMU anyway, so that will be a good excercise.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:51:25 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: High Guard optional rules: supply

At 01:11 PM 11/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>  Looks nice. Perhaps an expansion of what constitutes a month of operations
>requiring average replenishment - as you point out high intensity combat (a
>single battle or extensive attritional action) will require more resupply
>than an uncontested blockade operation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I was approaching this first from a design point of view - it really bothered
>me to see multi-kton warships with no cargo space in Supp 9 (Fighting
>Ships). I wanted some basic rules of thumb for designing a fleet so you
>could keep logistics in mind.
>

        I played in an SFB campaign where we were using 1 cargo box as one
month of supply...  The usual concept was to pull a WPN box from a raider
and make it a CARGO;  that was a month of supply (our game was done in one
month turns).  We also applied a scalar;  a size five (tiny) ship was
supplied for five months out of a CARGO, where as a size 1 (starbase) was
only a month.  Which led to the design of combat frieghters;  all screens,
gatling phasers, one torpedo and as many cargo boxes as you could cram,
being escorted by a *pair* of cruisers.  It would do the rounds to
prearragned RV points to resupply as many ships as possible and then fall
back to resupply itself.
        At least one major battle was fought over a resupply convoy....  the
Klingons happily totalled a CruRon and a battleship to destroy a
10-frieghter convoy guarded by two CruRons that was enroute to resupplying a
strike force base.  The base & system fell to the Klingons two months later,
largely because the StarFleet ADD racks were empty and they were low on
photon torpedoes.
        The Romulans had an interesting twist to this....  they routinely
did boarding actions on OpFor Battle Frieghters and to control of them...
thereby resupplying their own ships with the other-sides supplies.  They
usually pulled the two phaser-3's they carried in favor of having two months
supply.

        Having economics/ supply rules in place *completely* changed the
flavor of the game...  We had very nervous players in some cases, panicking
more over the defense of thier supply lines than the deep-penetration force
the line was supplying.  When a single battle frieghter could supply your
entire strike fleet for a month, you get *real* concerned about avoiding
enemy patrols.

>Perhaps the 1% per month is too high a level of abstraction?
>
>Walt Smith
>

        No...  I think it is about right...  so long as if the TL's are
equal.  I mean; it seems pretty obvious to do calculations on, and you can
simply state in the ship's description "it has X months of supply during
peace time and X/N months of supply during wartime in cargo space".
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:40:56 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Still looking

> OK, if I was to volunteer to do this, would it be possible for me to get my
> hands on the DGP Solomani & Aslan material?  I've only got the CT Aslan &
> Kkree books.

Well from what I recall about the Aliens I thing, the DGP info was explicitly
not consulted.  I gather this would hold true for Aliens II, as well.  The
original AMs are more than adequete.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 03:49:43 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: GURPS Aliens in Traveller

No, not GURPS Traveller Alien Races 1..n, GURPS Aliens.  The
yellow one.  By Chris McCubbin.  Yeah, that one.

Just curious - which of them do you think would make good aliens
("minor" races, of course) for the Traveller setting, and how
would you convert them to CT/MT?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 21:22:22 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: The Final Babylon Station?

Howdy All:

Found on the latest mailing I got from SJG:

" /\  Pyramid Update for December 11, 1998
/__\ http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login/

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current News:
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Press Release: Chameleon Eclectic Drops The Babylon Project"


!!!!!!!!!!

Fred Kiesche
(Traveller Since 1977)
(Father Since 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:20:51 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Space Missile Design

bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
>For some reason I thought this is what Mayday/LBB Missiles had - 6G12 -
>but
>it occurs to me that I'm probably misbehaving. Anyway, it seemed like a
>good
>compromise.
[snip]
>
>
>6G12 seems like a reasonable value but I would be willing to hear a case
>for
>12G12, since I made up the numbers anyway (although then you end up with
>6G15
>standard missiles too.)

6G12 is what Classic Traveller used. Special Supplement #3 had a missile
design sequence, which allowed you to design everything from a cheap
missile useful only against disabled targets to 6G12 fully controlable
missiles (which usually hit).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:12:08 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Testing strategy for FS' new Combat Helicopter

 Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:

>What ? And reduce the plasma output by half ?

Fit a contragrav support well and take out the recoil??

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:17:50 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Space Missile Design

bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:

>For some reason I thought this is what Mayday/LBB Missiles had - 6G12 - but
>it occurs to me that I'm probably misbehaving.

It is from Mayday - which has a missile design sequence in too - and is the
standard missile duration/thrust performance thing.

Dom (smiling as he just got Mayday and Flaming Eye through the BITS members
auction)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:03:55 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...

Fred, you wrote:

>Fairly hard on the heels of Mr. A's. recent announcemnt...
>
>Laura Elizabeth Kiesche
>Future Traveller Player
>Future First Woman on Mars
>(better get that application to Cornell and NASA finished...)
>
>December 2, 1998 at 7:12 PM
>8 pounds, 6 ounces
>21.25 inches
>
>...baby is doing well, active, alert, eating, and doing the things that result
>from eating...
>
>...Mother is recovering from surgery...
>
>...Father is looking a bit frazzled at the moment...
>
>Fred Kiesche
>(Traveller Since 1977)
>(Father Since 1998)

Congratulations.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:57:18 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules: Supply (long)

Walter Smith wrote:

>This is based on an earlier discussion here about fleet trains - combat
>support vessels - in the High Guard system.

[snip]

Excellent stuff. After all, amateurs study tactics. Professionals study
logistics.

>Example:
>
>A 3000tn Frigate with all energy weapons requires 15tns of cargo for
>a month of independent operations.
>
>A 3000tn Missile Frigate with two 100tn missile bays and ten laser turrets
>would require 35tns of cargo for a month of independent ops.
>
>A 3000tn Escort Carrier with 80 15tn light fighters on board would
>require 135tns of cargo space per month of independent ops.
>
>Comments?

The figures seems a touch on the low side, if anything.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:01:03 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: G-forces in a crash

Black ICE wrote:

>> Human tolerance limits for whole body impact (duration 0.1 second):
>> 
>> Inertial vector crash, with:
>> 
>> Forward seating (with shoulder belts)           40g
>> Forward seating (lapbelt only)                  27g (maximum of 0.002 second)
>> Rearward seating                                80g
>> Sideward seating                                9g
>> 
>This explains why the palletized seats in the C-141s that took me to and
>from Egypt, and the seats on the C-5 from which I had a jump, were
>rear-facing.

Yep. All Crab Air (RAF) passenger transports can be rigged with rearward
facing seats. Airlines have been resisting the idea - even though it
would probably save lives - becuase they are afraid of passenger
reactions to travelling backwards.

ObTrav: Safety or comfort in merchant liners?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:22:02 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS website update...

The BITS website has been updated with the following:

* v1.5.0 of Andrew Moffatt-Vallance's Pocket Empires Excel 5 Spreadsheet.

* An early Christmas present for Milieu 0 players and referees: the Sylea
subsector as an Acrobat file with Starports and Barren worlds included.

* Updates on TLWH (now out of print, hopefully a reprint in 99) and Tim
Collinson's excellent Traveller Bibliography (new printing in preparation,
should be available early 99).

BITS website http://www.bits.org.uk/

US availability:
*Check out SJG's Daily Illuminator http://www.sjgames.com/ill/ for
confirmation when the BITS books will be available (early Jan 99).
* if you can't wait that long try Leisure Games in London (UK) on
http://www.btinternet.com/~leisuregames

Dom (BITS webmaster)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:54:28 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: SANGER not SANDERS

"cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com> wrote:

>Alright, this is where we were before.  This Sanders fellow has purchased
>what's left of DGP, Seeker and FASA Traveller stuff (and maybe more).

<READ THE EARLIER POSTS>
Read the earlier posts: Roger SANGER not Paul SANDERS
Read the earlier posts: Roger SANGER not Paul SANDERS
Read the earlier posts: Roger SANGER not Paul SANDERS
Read the earlier posts: Roger SANGER not Paul SANDERS
Read the earlier posts: Roger SANGER not Paul SANDERS
Read the earlier posts: Roger SANGER not Paul SANDERS
Read the earlier posts: Roger SANGER not Paul SANDERS
Read the earlier posts: Roger SANGER not Paul SANDERS
Read the earlier posts: Roger SANGER not Paul SANDERS
</READ THE EARLIER POSTS>

Paul has actually published things (the Keith's _Letter of Marque_ for a
start).

>Fine.  Does anyone have any
>idea how to get in touch with him?  I'm not a creditor nor do I want the
>rights to publish his stuff anywhere.  Not that anyone could, anyway!

If you search the TML archives about 18 months ago I believe Roger Sanders
posted to sell old material.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:13:50 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Looking for hints or walkthrus...

I'm looking for a list of hints, helps and walkthroughs for the two
MegaTraveller IBM games...  If they are on the web, point me at the URL.


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1265
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Saturday, December 12 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1266



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: WorldGen program revision
Re: GURPS:Trav Alien Races 2
Re: Colonising hellholes
GT/Ft Conversion
Re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...
Re: Sylean Battleship Refuelling
Re: GT: Ship hitpoints
Re: FASA Deckplans
Re: Dirty Snowball Theory
re: High Guard optional rules: supply
Re: Is there an armour problem ?
Re: The Final Babylon Station?
RE: The Hand
Re: Testing strategy for FS' new Combat Helicopter
re: Space Missile Design
High Guard optional rules for supply (long)
Re: Colonising hellholes
Chicken Soup?
Converting High Guard stats
Re: Ditzie Doing It On The Side

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:45:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: WorldGen program revision

In mail you write:

> Thanks to a number of TML'ers who gave me advise on VB application
> distribution.  Based on what I was told, I was able to reduce the
> distribution size of the WorldGen application to a *much* more reasonable
> size of 1.5 MB.  (still 15 times the executable size, but at least my ISP
> won't be asking me to cough up for bandwidth charges!)

Any chance of getting the source? I've got a copy of QuickBasic for the
Mac, and it might be interesting to try porting the code.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:28:26 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@fastlane.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS:Trav Alien Races 2

At 07:46 PM 12/10/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>Well heck, I'll be glad to do it.  I'm fairly new to Traveller, and don't have
>any CT material, but I'm literate and GURPS-friendly.  If someone out there
>wants to collaborate and owns S&A, give me a shout.  Heck, I need the material
>for my campaign anyhow...  might as well get paid for writing it!
>  --S
Unfortunately, you cannot use S&A to write the Aslan portion of AR2.
Apparently Roger Sanger, (He is the one who owns the DGP copyrights, not
Paul Sanders) and SJG could not come to an agreement, so thus it DGP
material cannot be used.

Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:58:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

In mail you write:

>>From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
>>Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem
>>
>>  OK, this is doable. (And makes for a rather interesting locale too.)
>>But the main point is _why_ would anyone do something like this? For one,
>>even with the colossal economic might of the Imperium behind you, the
>>initial investment of starting all the hundreds (at least) colonies like
>>this on the canon starmaps would eat you alive considering the need to
>>import the starting water oxygen topsoil etc. and to excavate hundreds of
>>cubic klicks of cave. And with a garden world with a couple of hundred
>>inhabitants right next door (several examples exist) the logic really
>>starts to stink.
>>
>
> The short answer is 'exploitable export resource'.
>
> If you assume 1000 miners and life support techs, each with 10 dtons of
> gear, topsoil, LOx etc, being transported 10 parsecs at Cr 4000 per parsec
> for passengers and Cr 800 per parsec for freight, you get a cost of MCr 48.
> Add another KCr 20 per dton in actual cost of gear, and it goes up to MCr
> 250 or so.

Actually, you don't import topsoil. Topsoil is merely sand & clay with
added organics and organisms. The organics are essentially "life
support sludge" after bacterial processing. The organisms can be
produced by inoculating the soil with bacterial cultures, and once
those have taken hold, adding earthworms and other multicellular life. 

Heinlein's "Farmer in the Sky" has a couple of sections dealing with
producing topsoil from raw rock. First they have some equipment that
breaks the surface up into rocks down to the size of cars. Then
something that breaks *that* down into fist sized rocks. They break it
down to gravel with yet another sized crusher, and finally have "hand
tools" to break up gravel into rock flour. 

All of these would be doable by typical mining gear. Add a couple
stages of bacterial ore recovery and the tailings are useful for
building soil. 

We have projects now that use bacteria to extract metals and some
non-metals from ore and from old tailings piles. 

So I'd just ship in food and save the sludge until there's enough to
build the first batch of soil. Shipping bacterial cultures and soil
critters is *much* easier.

> Pretty easy to amortise that, especially if you can import food from a
> nearby world with a biosphere.

And if you skip shipping in bulk topsoil and go for my tricks, it's
even cheaper. 

You *do* wind up needing lots of water, but *any* mining setup will
require a lot of water until we switch to techniques that making
"mining" essentially meaningless. 

> Of course, as time goes on, people regard the world as 'home', start to put
> down roots, raise families, dig more caves, build or import more life
> support gear etc etc.
>
> I mean, with all due respect, Finland seems a much less nice place to live
> than a number of other places I can think of, but people stay there ...


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:24:19 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: GT/Ft Conversion

I'm leaning towards using Full Thrust to play out Traveller space combat,
mainly because it's a fast system that I can teach players very quickly.
(We learned to to play The Babylon Project.)

Has anyone seen a GURPS-to-Full Thrust conversion, or is anyone interested
in creating one?

I don't play GURPS Traveller, but I could use the sourcebooks if I had a
way of converting ships.

Ditto for T4 ships., if anyone has a system for converting T4 to Full
Thrust.

I already have a High Guard to FT conversion (thanks Dom).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:38:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...

In mail you write:

> Greetings All:
>
> Fairly hard on the heels of Mr. A's. recent announcemnt...
>
> Laura Elizabeth Kiesche
> Future Traveller Player
> Future First Woman on Mars
> (better get that application to Cornell and NASA finished...)
>
> December 2, 1998 at 7:12 PM
> 8 pounds, 6 ounces
> 21.25 inches

Make that:
3800 grams
54 cm.

After all, Traveller is metric. :-)

> ...baby is doing well, active, alert, eating, and doing the things that 
> result
> from eating...
>
> ...Mother is recovering from surgery...
>
> ...Father is looking a bit frazzled at the moment...
>
> Fred Kiesche
> (Traveller Since 1977)
> (Father Since 1998)
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:15:56 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Sylean Battleship Refuelling

At 10:54 AM 12/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/10/98 8:07:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>smithw@hartwick.edu writes:
>
><<  The small defense you get against meson weaponry
> is worth the small price increase. I don't like the idea from a "realism"
> standpoint of million+ ton dreadnaughts coming in for a landing, though.
>  >>

I use it for the wow and fear factor it can generate.  The wow factor is
when you want to impress and show your citizens that you have the power to
protect them.  The fear factor is for the enemy in their cities and towns
when they realize that your megaton battleship is cruising by their window
and the local defense forces are nowhere to be found anymore.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:11:59 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: Ship hitpoints

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 06:26:42 -0500
From: Fred and Evelyn Wolke <thewolkes@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: GT: Ship hitpoints
At 04:14 AM 12/11/98 -0500, HAL wrote:
>Hello Folks,

>  When firing at a ship, you roll 1d6 to determine where the shot hit.  On
>a 1-2, you hit a turret.  Ok, that works for me.  What happens however,
>when you roll a turret hit, and the weapon does 200,000 points of damage?
>If a turret has 1,200 hit points (1.5 * surface area), what happens to the
>other 198,800 points?  Does it blow through and hit the hull?  Does it
>blow through and hit empty space?
IMC, it blows through and hits empty space; the turrets on ships are
designed so that the maximum number can bear on a target at the same time;
for small ships this generally means putting them so that they are arrayed
on the sides and top rather than the front and back.
**************
Or you could say thet the turred needs to be destroyed rather than just
disabled before the ship is affected.  so it would absorbe a total of
13,200 hits before applying to the ship.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:27:37 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: FASA Deckplans

>On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Rob Prior wrote:
>Also as I've got the Adventure Class Ships, I'd like to know what
>deckplans fasa also brought out for Traveller.


The ones I have are :

in long black boxes like Adventure Class Ships :
Aslan Mercenary Ships,
Merchant Class Ships

Beige folios :
ISCV: King Richard,
ZISMV : Vlezhdatl
ISCV: Leander
ISPMV: Tethys
ISPMV: Fenris (SFV :Valkyrie)

I think I've still got a second copy of King Richard if anyone wants
one, and I've seen, I think, Tethys and Fenris , in a local second
hand shop, so if anyone's interested I'll have a look next time I'm
near it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:48:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Dirty Snowball Theory

In mail you write:

> Imaginactra wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> <dangerous brainstorm>
> What about refilling the source? Could a world go out and grab something
> the size of Hale - Bop and replenish the water source?
> </dangerous brainstorm> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> That's often thought of when we talk about terraforming techniques - 
> toss a couple ice asteroids at a dead planet to upgrade the hydrosphere
> and either speed up or slow down the planetary rotation (depending on
> which way the asteroids are moving).

There was an interesting idea in Analog a few years back. Terraforming
a one-face world (ie a planet tidal locked too its star) by impacting a
"chain of small comets along the terminator. 

This would create a chian of interlinked craters. Add a river flowing
from the pole to the equator, and you have a useful living area. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:18:57 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: re: High Guard optional rules: supply

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote

> Don again:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> vessels with significant frozen watches? does the frozen watch
> degrade from being out of supply?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> I hadn't thought about it, but probably not. They're not going to get 
> any more frozen, right?  

I think that the problem occurs when the frozen watch suddenly becomes
_un_frozen.  Picture a technician going into the frozen watch area to
unfreeze someone.  They pull out the body while it is still frozen. 
They drop the frozen watch.  The crewman breaks into twentyseven
thousand small pieces all over the compartment floor which then start to
melt.  The clumsy crewman says Dooohh! but is quickly distracted by a
donut....

> I recall a THUDD SDB design, the entire crew was supposed to go into
> low berths, the computer would wake them up when a red alert
> sounded. Such a vessel would last a long time on a 1% of hull tonnage
> supply locker, IMO.

Trust the computer, the computer is your friend.

Peter - who is suddenly picturing playing TNE P*r*n*** style.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:29:17 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Is there an armour problem ?

Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:58:44, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>

>>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem
>>
>>Well, during playtest my group did find it hard to armor
>>large ships against their own weapons.  However, when you look
>>at the designs, if make a jump capable ship with good
>>maneuverability hard to damage, then non-jump, slower
>>ships become "undamageable".
>
>Undamageable with or without meson guns ?

Will, obviously without, since armor doesn't stop meson guns.  But
the same factor (not having to push the weight around) would
probably let you load up on meson screens.

We did postulate that a ship could target the ships sensors
(do densiometers have to be on the outside of the ship?  I
guess neutrino detectors don't, could you target with those?)
and where the guns stick out and then take you time boring a
hole in it.  But for game play purposes I wouldn't make
armor better.

Also, as David Pulver pointed out on the Pyramid GT message board,
there is a problem that small ships can have a problem damaging
each other if armor is made better.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:52:23 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: The Final Babylon Station?

>Howdy All:
>
>Found on the latest mailing I got from SJG:
>
>" /\  Pyramid Update for December 11, 1998
>/__\ http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login/
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Current News:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Press Release: Chameleon Eclectic Drops The Babylon Project"

Did they ever get more than three things out?  I've got the "Babylon
Project", "the Earthforce Sourcebook", and a GM screen/module of some sort
(never taken time to look at it).

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:54:40 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: RE: The Hand

>Paul Schirf
>>
>> What do you think is attached to this?
>>
>> http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/downloads/AlienHand.gif
>
>Hmmm...
>
>Don't have a clue but I think I'd prefer to see it first
>very far away and through the scope of my Gauss rifle.

Agreed, looks more like a "Face Hugger" from Aliens than a hand!  Shoot
first, ask questions latter.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:37:43 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Testing strategy for FS' new Combat Helicopter

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
> >From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> >Subject: Re: Testing strategy of FS' new Combat Helicopter
> >
> >
> >Have you considered a Janus-style mount?  If you set it to fire
> >fore-and-aft simultaneously, you might be able to get the recoil to
> >cancel out.
> >
> 
> What ? And reduce the plasma output by half ?

Of _course_ not.  Engage two targets simultaneously.  You probably
wouldn't need a true 180 degree opposition to get some recoil-cancelling
effects.  (Of course, you might snap the helo like a dry twig....)

OTOH, while I understand that you're mounting this on a helo to prevent
the gravitic signature from giving away your position, you could have a
grav compensator linked to the firing circuit.  After all, once you fire
a plasma gun, you have provided quite a lovely visual/IR/radiation
signature anyway.  The compensator turns on a few milliseconds before
firing, and shuts off a few milliseconds after the recoil is dampened. 
You then scoot away, with no ongoing grav signature.

> 
> This is *Famile Spofulam* dammit ... Hengabar's explicit directions are 'If
> it flies, we can ship it'.
> 
> Ian Whitchurch

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:50:51 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: re: Space Missile Design

At 10:19 11/12/98 -0800, Bruce wrote:

>For some reason I thought this is what Mayday/LBB Missiles had - 6G12 - but
>it occurs to me that I'm probably misbehaving. Anyway, it seemed like a good
>compromise...EAPlaC didn't really have a maximum acceleration (you could
>implicitly make your missile 1200G12 if you like - it would just accelerate
>for a tiny fraction of a turn), so by definition all FFS1 missiles came
>out as xGx.

You're right, I just forgot (not having reat CT for some time). 

BTW EAPlaC is only the best choice in FF&S1 if you want the very high
maximum acceleration. HEPlaR + batteries or fuel cell is better if 6G's is
enough acceleration (no need for a fusion plant in FF&S1). If you bouild
your missiles at 10.5 m^3 at TL13+ you can have fusion powered HEPlaR and
get 16G155, though they cost 27% more than battery powered 14G28 models
(all this is using FF&S1's formulae).

>6G12 seems like a reasonable value but I would be willing to hear a case for
>12G12, since I made up the numbers anyway (although then you end up with 6G15
>standard missiles too.)

I don't see a problem with this, as then you have a choice.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:38:39 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: High Guard optional rules for supply (long)

Looks pretty good.  Now for the detailed (original Fire, Fusion, and Steel)...
I imagine it should be based on maintenance points.  I don't think FFS2 still
uses these, but am not sure.  I like the concept of the maintenance rules of
TNE (wear values et al) though, of course, I've tinkered w/ them.  Malfunction
checks are only done on catastrophic failures and when Preventive Maintenance
isn't done (which for MTU is just the required maintenance points and not
double as in TNE pg 241).   

Hmm...  Off hand, i'm leaning towards something like a m3 per maintenance
point for a full years supplies (parts, lubrication, etc) w/ modifiers for
machine and electronics shops.  That would fill up ships pretty quick and give
most of my designs about 1-6 months of independant operation, depending on how
I actually slice the machine/electronic shops.  I'm thinking have each one cut
the total supply size by from 10-25%.  What do the gearheads think?

I actually don't think the stock rules were far off the mark (especially for
ground vehicles).  I've personally witnessed a well maintained M1A1 go out to
the field and have *something* friggin fail within 8 hours, which requires a
full crew to be working on that piece of *#$% until well past 0300.  It's
usually something electronic or mechanical (the mechanical is usually easily
fixed... the electronic has to be shipped somewhere), but sometimes its due to
operation... throwing track, get stuck in the mud, etc.  In general, though, u
do your maintenance and have nothing to worry bout.  

I know nothing about "high reliability" pieces like combat aircraft though...
anyone here work as ground crews on an Air Wing or for an Air Force or Naval
Aviation and have their two CrImp to toss in?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:03:51 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:

 
> The short answer is 'exploitable export resource'.
> 
> If you assume 1000 miners and life support techs, each with 10 dtons of
> gear, topsoil, LOx etc, being transported 10 parsecs at Cr 4000 per parsec
> for passengers and Cr 800 per parsec for freight, you get a cost of MCr 48.
> Add another KCr 20 per dton in actual cost of gear, and it goes up to MCr
> 250 or so.
>

  This is the one scenario I _can_ stomach: resource worlds. What I can't
figure out, though, is why you would need something like 5 billion people
to exploit the resources of a 200km airless rockball...

> Pretty easy to amortise that, especially if you can import food from a
> nearby world with a biosphere.
>
  ...while the nice, balmy garden world next door has a couple of
dozen inhabitants.
  
 > Of course, as time goes on, people regard the world as 'home', start to put
> down roots, raise families, dig more caves, build or import more life
> support gear etc etc.
> 
  And why wouldn't the miners (or whatever) work maybe 1-3 month shifts on
the hellhole resource world, and then travel one jump home to the garden
world to spend their obscene pay with their families.(Who probably
wouldn't be too happy living in a mine anyway.) This is pretty much the
eqiuvalent of what modern oil rig workers do.

> I mean, with all due respect, Finland seems a much less nice place to live
> than a number of other places I can think of, but people stay there ...
> 
  And look at our population density: a whopping 40 people/sq.mi. Finland
is actually a lot less unpleasant than you might imagine, then again the
climate is also a lot less extreme than most people seem to think. (No
polar bears here AFAIK, and the only time I see a reindeer is when I drive
800km north to a skiing resort.)  

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 03:07:12 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Chicken Soup?

Over on rec.games.frp.gurps, some poor soul was apparently
derided for being involved in RPGs, and posted a question asking
if it was inappropriate for him to be interested in RPGs.  The
question is quoted at the beginning of the following, but I was
more interested in the response.  I think the person responding
here has a good point.

>:>"Slade" <someone@here.com> wrote:>
>
>:>> I am an aspiring GM, but I havn't even played the game that much and I feel
>:>> guility for playing because my x girlfriend says Im too old for these games
>:>> and I am weird for playing them.
>
>  I view RPGing as a decendent of the story telling tradition.  Story
>telling is a very old tradition, one that depends not on age but
>imagination (ie. Homer and ilk).  "Playing" in an RPG is similar to
>telling a story and acting in a play.  It's also similar to writing a book
>(OK, outline of a book) if you're a creative GM.  Outlining a book is no
>easy task.  I have learned alot about writing stories and tho I'm no
>expert at it, I found I appreciate literature more because of roleplaying.
>
>  If you view RPG's in this light, it may help lessen the "guilty"
>feelings you're having for participating in this SOCIAL activity.  As
>others have already pointed out, it's far better than sitting in front
>of the tube, ALONE, interacting with no one.
>
>  I use RPG's and other games for entertainment AND as an excuse to invite
>friends over who would otherwise be watching TV or playing computer games.
>If I didn't do this, I would only see them during holidays maybe two or
>three times a year.  
>
><soapbox mode: OFF>
> -- 
>=======================================================================
>Peter Caron
>pcaron@cris.com

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:09:15 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Converting High Guard stats

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:59:32 -0500 (EST)
From: HAL <hal@buffnet.net>
Subject: Converting High Guard stats
Hello Folks,
  A few thoughts to parade before the collective wisdome of the list...
a single laser needs an 8 to hit a target.  A single Particle gun needs a
9 to hit.  A Spinal Particle gun needs a 3 to hit, and a Meson Gun spinal
needs a 5 to hit.  These numbers are based upon a 2d6 system from High
Guard.  This would seem to imply that the Spinal mounts are better at
hitting than are the lasers.  Much MUCH better than lasers.
  If we accept that the lasers present in GURPS TRAVELLER are the
"standard" for what is relative to an "8" to hit in HIGH GUARD's system -
then a RoF bonus of +4 would equate to the "8".  Therefore, perhaps the
Single turret mounted Particle Accellerator is considered to be maybe a
RoF +3 Bonus, while a Particle Spinal Mount should be more like +9 and
perhaps a Meson Spinal should be more like +7 or +8.
************
or even higher, rememberitn that HG used only two dice.



  Spinal mounts concievably can do tremendous damage.  So much so, that it
would be ridiculous to think that meson screens are of any value.  Case in
point:
TL12 Meson Spinal mount (T equivalent in HIGH GUARD):

1/2 damage range: 10 hexes
Max Range       : 29 hexes
Damage          : 5d6x25,800 (average damage is 451,500
RoF per minute  : 4
RoF bonus       : +6
  If I were to change the RoF from 4 to 15 while maintaining the Volume
Constraints, the stats would look like this instead:
1/2 damage range:  5 hexes
Max damage Range: 15 hexes
Damage          : 5d6x13,850 (average damage per hit: 242,375)
RoF per minute  : 15
RoF bonus       :+8
************8
how about if we up it to 30 per minute, what happens then (besides the +9
to hit.)?


Four hits averaging 242,375 points will do 969,500 as compared with
1,354,500 for the Meson gun that I described first.  If that Destroyer
Escort has a Meson Screen DR of 60,000 (10% of his internal space devoted
to screens) then it will suffer 729,500 points of damage that round as
compared with 1,174,500 points from the first meson gun example.  (by the
by - that Destroyer Escort only has 120,000 hit points to begin with.
720,000 points of damage will destroy it totally).
***************
I am sure that after careful examination you could deduce that it used to
be a destroyer :)

You would need to do 1,320,000 damage to destroy it totaly.

Even then there would be that tell-tell cloud of expanding vapor....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:56:42
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Doing It On The Side

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: FS Design Request
>
>        Ian,
>        Could you talk to Ditzie and ask her to check if Famile has a line
>of MRL-Like Plasma weapons....  You know;  hail a coupld hundred
>self-propelled rounds down on a TZ in a few seconds as a method of
>convincing OpFor GroPos to play somewhere else?
>
>        If so, could you get her to roll the FF&S dat down to CT:Mercenary
>stats...  I've got a bunch of 7'8"-tall T-Rex's planning on invading UN
>Space soon who own something similar and I wanna see what it looks like...
>The TL is 13-14-ish, I think...  Not sure where they got 'em given they are
>only TL~12.
>        The Ambasador said something about oweing Ditzie a frieghter-load of
>bullion...  know anything about that?

I'm sure Ditzie knows *nothing* about any side deals involving unauthorised
use of FS resources for 'private projects'. Thats what her fwend Michael is
for.

Now, these overgrown lizards are TL12-13, and UN Space is tech 9, right ?

OK. Ditzie tells me a defining feature of plasma is that it is short range
(oh for an r-torp), so what we actually want is a series of small stealthed
grav-propelled missiles with a plasma gun warhead (FS' High Energy
Solutions division generally doesnt believe in stealth, putting it's faith
in firepower, but when you have a 3 TL advantage, stealth is worth it).

Now, given a 3 TL advantage, we should be able to pick out any grav tanks,
artillery etc that are lying around with a cheap sensor, and then the
missile dives onto the target, with the plasma firing at 30-50 meters.

This will remove the support forces, letting infantry be cleaned up with
cluster bombs prior to the actual landing.

Does that fit the client's business requirements ?

Oh yeah, Ditzie says that she's got a high tech combat helicopter they may
be interested in too ... hmmm, are the A gun's stats in Mercenary ?

Ian Whitchurch

PS Having the Plasma Missiles clean up the tanks etc means that the PCs get
to survive, stuck in a foxhole.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1266
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Saturday, December 12 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1267



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Off Topic: Star Trek: Insurrection--No Spoilers
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
The physics and phases of jump space
Re: The Hand
X-Boat Routes
Re: Dirty Snowball Theory(Was: Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
RE: WorldGen program revision
RE: Please read, having problems.
Re: Testing strategy for FS' new Combat Helicopter
Re: The Hand
The RICE Papers
re: High Guard optional rules: supply
Re: GURPS Aliens in Traveller
hmmmm... still no response
Re: GURPS:Trav Alien Races 2
Role Playing?
Re: Still looking
Droyne Scout Deckplans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:45:01 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Off Topic: Star Trek: Insurrection--No Spoilers

I'm a Trekkie.  I don't care how the films fare, I'll see them all.
And, I eventually watch all of the episodes of the shows on television,
too--Star Trek, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek:  Deep Space
Nine, and Star Trek:  Voyager included.  I've grown up with Trek, and it
is hard for me to imagine a world without it.

Now, with that out of the way, let's talk about the third Next
Generation film, the 9th in the entire series.  It's fun!  From all of
the Trek movies, I'd say that this is one of the most friendly for
non-Trekkies--even more so than Star Trek IV:  The Voyage Home.

Paramount has the biggest marketing push behind this film that I have
seen behind a Trek film in a long time.  They're playing it up as a good
"date film", and I'd have to agree.  This is not to say that die-hard
Trekies, like myself, won't like the film, because I enjoyed it.

The story is a basic TV plot.  I'd like to see something a little
grander on the big screen, but in reality, the story in Insurrection is
really just an excuse to watch the characters that have been created
with the Trek franchise.  A good job of that is done in this film.

I keep holding my breath to get another five star film that approaches
Star Trek II:  The Wrath of Khan in enjoyment, scope, and just plain
awesome movie making, but I'm starting to turn a little blue.  The plot
of Star Trek:  Insurrection would have made a hell of a two-part episode
during the series, though, and as a movie, it's pretty good.

There's a lot of laughs in this one.  I kept hearing that, and I went in
thinking the film would be hokey.  But, it wasn't.  I laughed and
chuckled all the way through--glad that I was spending time with the
crew of the Enterprise again.

I've got a few grips.  First, about the film's concept as a whole.  I
really wanted to see a TV-movie tie-in where we get to see what the
Enterprise is doing during the huge war the Federation is currently
having with the Dominion (you'll know about this if you watch DS9).  I
think the filmmakers had a chance to make this incredible, ultimate
space-fight, Trek morality on war, film, and they dropped the ball.

They could have had the Enterprise crew sent on some ultimate mission to
end the war--maybe to drop the superweapon, or something like that, on
the Dominon HQ.  I can just see it now--all that Trek-esque morality on
dropping THE BOMB.  Maybe the weapon could be some prototype of the
Genisis Device from the earlier Kirk-Trek films.  That'd be a nice tie
to the old series.  Maybe they could start off at DS9 and have Worf come
aboard (he's stationed there, in case you don't watch DS9), then move
into a HUGE, save-the-day space fight, climaxing that big war on the big
screen.  Maybe the Romulans could do a sneak attack a la Pearl Harbor.
Maybe at the end, Voyager could finally arrive from the Delta Quadrant,
bringing that baby home as surprise (boy, do they need to do that).

Imagine it:  Klingons fighting to the death, honor and bravery paramount
above all else;  Romulan cloak-and-dagger spy networks;
Federation/Dominion/Cardassian space fights;  our first look at large
scale Trek ground warfare...

But, I know I'm dreaming here.  Maybe if George Lucas takes over the
Trek franchise...

Anyway, as far as my specific gripes on Insurrection go, they need to do
away with those new dress uniforms.  It looks like they hired the same
guy (I don't know if they did) who did those awful ST:TNG uniforms to
design them.  They make Picard and crew look like waiters in space.
Another small gripe:  the ending was a little too neat and weak for my
tastes.  And, I think the Amish-people-in-space story line has been done
one too many times.

As far as strengths for the film?  I've already named several.  It's a
fun film.  I laughed a lot.  I think non-Trekkies will like the movie.
The TNG characters continue to grow.  And, it's the best Next Gen film
to date.

I was worried that they weren't going to cover why the Enterprise was
off screwing around with this little planet (total population of 600),
when the Federation is currently embroiled in this galaxy wide war with
the Dominion, but they handled that fine.  It's a big galaxy, and in a
space that big, the front line can be far, far away from you.  The
Federation has to keep up duties in other parts of the galaxy too--can't
let it all go to hell just because there's a war on.  The Enterprise is
busy with diplomatic duties to support the war effort.  I liked that,
and I bought it (if I couldn't have my war film).

Barring Star Trek II:  The Wrath of Khan, and Star Trek IV:  The Voyage
Home (my two favorites), Insurrection takes it's place up there with
First Contact, Generations, The Undiscovered Country, The Search for
Spock, and The Motion Picture.

And, Insurrection is much, much better than The Final Frontier.

I'm going to rate it a "Good" film by giving it 3 out of 5 stars and
encourage you to go see it.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:07:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Heck, the more massive the system, the *lower* the losses. That's the
>> way eco-systems *work*. Also, the larger the habitat, the *lower* the
>> surface area to volume ration is. And it's the surface area where
>> losses occur.

>  I was rather thinking of all the thousands of visitors the A class
> starport these places usually have gets every week. You'd have to
> institute some pretty brutal biomass quarantine measures to stop them
> from taking away unfeasible amounts of life support materiel. (I.e
> all they eat, drink and breathe etc.) Also most things you export are
> going to take away oxygen/water (plastics, metals etc.)

You forget that what they eat, drink & breathe wind up as CO2, H20, and
"organic byproducts" all of which get left behind. Simply having
visiting ships dump the "sludge" from the water recycling system will
get you more organics than you lose. 

If they resupply with food, you aren't quite as well off. And due to
the way people metabolize food, sjhips will wind up with excess carbon
(from CO2 cracking in the air recycler) and excess water. Both of which
you'll gladly take off their hands. :-)

Exporting metals and minerals won't deplete organics. I doubt that
they'll be exporting anything with a high organic content unless
they've got *lots* of spare biomass.

>> And with even thousands of people, you are going to have to have a full
>> fledged eco-system of some sort. By the time you get to millions,
>> you'll be doing things like using artificial marshes to recycle sewage
>> (this is a recent technology, but quite workable).
>
>  [rather cool explanation snipped]
>
>> On airless worlds, and ones where the air is really thin, I think I'd
>> go for underground placement of the marshes and "farms". Create a
>> series of linked "bubble caverns" with nukes, meson guns, or whatever.
>>
>> On worlds with a decent pressure, but non-breathable air, you can get
>> by with fairly light construction. This includes the higher presure but
>> non-exotic atmospheres. No reason not to have the marshes/farms at
>> ambient pressure.
>>
>> With exotic atmosphere types, underground starts to look good again.
>
>   OK, this is doable. (And makes for a rather interesting locale too.)
> But the main point is _why_ would anyone do something like this? For one,
> even with the colossal economic might of the Imperium behind you, the
> initial investment of starting all the hundreds (at least) colonies like
> this on the canon starmaps would eat you alive considering the need to
> import the starting water oxygen topsoil etc. and to excavate hundreds of
> cubic klicks of cave. And with a garden world with a couple of hundred
> inhabitants right next door (several examples exist) the logic really
> starts to stink.

Excavating the caverns is *cheap*. A single nuclear demolition charge
will produce a *huge* cavern. The initial spherical cavity winds up
with a puddle of "melt" in the bottom, and that gets covered over when
the fractured rock above the cavity collapses. So you wind up with a
cylindrical cavity with a hemispherical top and a bottom composed of
loose rock over the melt puddle. 

They've actually considered this technology for underground storage
facilities. 

I figure that most of these places start out as one of three things:

1. Way station. It's the best choice in the system, and having
   *something* there makes trade easier. A place to refuel, or even to
   just wait while you send a message on to get the replacement for
   that part that wasn't supposed to fail... :-)

2. Research base. Something was deemed of interest by some scientists,
   and they got enough funding to establish a small base.

3. Mining colony. Some sort of mineral deposits were found that some
   optimists felt were worth the cost of mining and shipping.

On all of these, you start out with a few dozen to a few hundred
people, and ship in food. After a while, you set up
hydroponic/aeroponic farming mostly to help rececyle the air and partly
to get some fresh air. After this has been going for a while and
diversified a bit you start raising food animals (chickens, rabbits,
guinea pigs) and including some fish in the water based recyling.

By this time you've got thousands of people. And the marshes and the
rest start looking like a good investment, as they require less machine
pre-processing of the sewage before feeding it to the plants. 

This is a very condensed and simplified description of the likely
stages, but I don't see any insurmountable obstacles to such a slow,
steady increase in life support and population. 

BTW, for simple tunneling, I bet a modified PGMP/FGMP does a great job.
:-)

And right *now* they have experimental tunneling machines using CPAWS!

Power being cheap, excavation isn't all that hard. *Especially* if you
are on a world where you can just vent vaporized rock to the outside
and not worry about messing up the air. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:47:23 EST
From: TDRandall@aol.com
Subject: The physics and phases of jump space

In an attempt to bring life back to the list, here are some ideas I've been
letting  roll about in my head.  I'm sure I've not considered all of the
implications yet, but I'm putting it out here for some discussion.  Also note,
I stopped version with MT, and plan on getting in a bit later again with GT or
T5 (or both).  This may explain if I've missed some (new) canon positions that
either conflicts or already explains some of the material contained here.
With that said, here is some fodder for the gearheads.

JUMP SPACE HAS PHASES, LOGICALLY SIMILAR TO MATTER (e.g., such as water).

The initial reasons of why I arrived at this was simply to allow various game
systems into one universe, by coming up with as logical explanation as I could
on how te various FTL methods might work.  Try to answer the question "how
could I put Traveller, Star Wars/Star Trek/Space Master, and Stargate/Earth
Final Conflict - type systems together reasonably?"

Premises:
1) The 'phase' change is not based upon heat (like water), but instead on
gravitic influence.
2) The gas/liquid translation occurs at about 100 diamaters, the liquid/solid
translation at something much less (perhaps 10, or even 1.5 diameters)
3) The transition point is not immovable, but either slowly shifts (like waves
on the beach and tides) or there exists an area where both phases allow for
some activity and reduced effectiveness or chance of success.
4) Jump Space is highly convoluted in a hyper-dimensional way.  (especially if
you want StarGate-like travel to be possible between two planets in different
star systems, which would in the normal universe be seen to cross over the
'liquid' and 'gas' phase of jump space.  The Earth Final Conflict hyper travel
is not so effected as it only took people from one point on the planet to
another point on the same planet).

Explanations:
1) Traveller FTL travel can be seen as the jump engine causing a shock wave in
the 'gaseous' phase of jump space, which the ship then follows so as not to be
affected by jump space itself
2) Star Wars/Star Trek/Space Master FTL travel is based on 'outriggers' or
'hydroplanes' that dip their FTL drives into jump space while the rest of the
ship receives some feedback from it that protects it from being completely
overwhelmed of real-space effects.  They can see normal space, and choose when
to stop FTL travel, and aren't affected by relativistic time dilation effects.
3) StarGate type style travel is either burrowing through "solid" jump space
at the moment of need, or (more likely) opening one end of an existing tunnel
to allow travel to the other end.
4) The transition of gas to liquid to solid also accompanies some step up in
the velocity achievable.  While Traveller ships can jump 18LY (6 hexes * 1
Parsec [= ~3LY, right?]) in one week, Star Wars/Star Trek/Space Master ships
often do it in about a day, and Stargate type travel is nearly instantaneous.

Game effects/Implications:
1) While traveller-style jumps may be possible from less than 100 diameters,
failure becomes more likely the closer one gets, until perhaps at the 10
diameter mark it will not work, period. (No more jumping from the planet
surface, you reckless pilots!)
2) The different jump spaces available (1-6) are based on making use of the
convolutions of jump space.  (It may be easier to picture the Earth for this
next bit - the comparison being normalspace is looking at the Earth like a
map, when it is really a globe) J1 makes an 'easy' jump by going a set
distance, and only a little bit 'below' the sphere surface (say, New York to
Washington DC).  Higher Jump drives can go deeper, and faster/farther while
'under' (so that J2 might be New York to Kansas City, J3 New York to Salt Lake
City, J4 New York to LA, J5 New York to Hawaii, J6 New York to Tokyo).  
3) There will never be a galaxy-wide empire, if it is based solely on one mode
of FTL travel.  (Unless it would be based on StarGate type technology, but
that would only allow for control of the planets themselves with stargates,
and doesn't explain how they got there in the first place).
4) Galaxy-core diameters are used, meaning that traveller ships will come to
about 100 galaxy core diameters (I don't know that this value makes much sense
- - how far would this be?  A comfortable distance coreward from our known
traveller space?  Or would it take in the whole galaxy?  If so, maybe the fact
that the galaxy is a collection of gravity sources somehow muddles up the
range effect) and find their jump drives more likely to fail, may come upon
another interstellar power with differently run (and faster! ships), but that
can't go out past, oh, 110 galaxy core diameters without their drives failing.
5) Transition between phases on the galactic scale certainly includes many
sectors wide of space to allow for good conflict between the various
technologies.  Using a set barrier that shifts in and out, you may have years
when traveller type ships come into a system, and then can't get out when the
point shifts back, at which time the outriggers can access the systems.  Using
an area approach where both are possible (if somewhat reduced in power) I
would think would be more interesting.
6) intra-system and inter-system traveller may be based on very different
technologies (pirate thread coming! - imagine outrigger-type insystem ships in
outward galaxy systems, much faster than the ships jumping between the
systems, yet not able to jump themselves.)
7) Wormholes (for you DS9 fans), are as yet unexplained stargates naturally
forming for as-yet unregisterable gravity influence (perhaps in J-Space
itself!)

Well, I'm suiting up into my flame-retardant outer-wear.  So have at it!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:06:45 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: The Hand

At 12:42 PM 11/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>What do you think is attached to this?
>
>http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/downloads/AlienHand.gif
>

        Reptile aquatic...  Probably a "chaser"....  the bottom pair of
digits, being placed where they are implies a world where there are a lot of
tall thin things to grab onto....  seaweed equvalent of bamboo, maybe...
also means that their edge weapons (if civilized) would have a wicked
forward weight, because they could extend the grip so far back.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:42:58 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: X-Boat Routes

At the risk of rekindling the X-boat route debate, and with apologies if
this has already been mentioned in that context:

Does anyone else find it amusing that the Jump-4 express boat route between
Tenalphi and Strouden in Lunion subsector is actually 5 parsecs long?  Let
alone that the whole Shirene-Strouden-Tenalphi loop goes nowhere.

[Kudos to Messrs. Dougherty and Frier for at least a plausible explanation
(X-boat crew training) for the Ianic-Adabicci link in the same subsector.]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:33:15 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dirty Snowball Theory(Was: Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

In message <3.0.5.32.19981210093526.007e4100@zoomnet.net>, Imaginactra
<russcm@zoomnet.net> writes
>IF this theory is true (have heard there is now evidence to this), how much
                                             ^^^
                                             no

according to sci.astro
 
>water do these snowballs add to the hydrosphere, and would they replace
>water fast enough to make depletion due to planetary negligable?

- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:19:38 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: WorldGen program revision

The source code is posted on my website, along with the program.  Unless 
you have VB5 or 6 installed on your system, the actual project files won't 
help you much, but if you would like those feel free to contact me 
directly.

douglas


- ----------
From: 	Leonard Erickson[SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
Sent: 	Friday, December 11, 1998 6:45 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: WorldGen program revision

In mail you write:

> Thanks to a number of TML'ers who gave me advise on VB application
> distribution.  Based on what I was told, I was able to reduce the
> distribution size of the WorldGen application to a *much* more reasonable
> size of 1.5 MB.  (still 15 times the executable size, but at least my ISP
> won't be asking me to cough up for bandwidth charges!)

Any chance of getting the source? I've got a copy of QuickBasic for the
Mac, and it might be interesting to try porting the code.

- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:54:38 -0600
From: Dave Seagraves <daveseag@io.com>
Subject: RE: Please read, having problems.

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE25DC.F37F6D80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Here you go.



- -----Original Message-----
From:	Chris Seamans [SMTP:semo@pil.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:53 AM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Please read, having problems.

This is a test. If anybody ends up reading this on the Traveller Mailing
List, please drop me an e-mail. I would appreciate it. From where I'm
sitting, it looks like the list is down :-(

Thanks

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE25DC.F37F6D80
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE25DC.F37F6D80--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:16:11 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Testing strategy for FS' new Combat Helicopter

> >Have you considered a Janus-style mount?  If you set it to fire
> >fore-and-aft simultaneously, you might be able to get the recoil to
> >cancel out.
> >
>
> What ? And reduce the plasma output by half ?

Don't recolless rifles blow some kind of inert material out the rear for
recoil compensation? How about using the same idea for your plasma gun?

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:39:33 -0700
From: "Gordon Horne" <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: The Hand

>>What do you think is attached to this?
>>
>>http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/downloads/AlienHand.gif
>>

Radially symmetrical 'tree' climber. Manipulator (shown) is used to pluck
fruits including use as a basket to hold smaller fruits while being
harvested. Also used to sweep small, flying (or falling) prey out of the
air. Robust limbs (not shown) have reduced terminal digits and webbing and
increased basal graspers. Creature uses these limbs for climbing power and
for hanging (either in ambush or in repose). Agile, moderately dexterous,
keen sensed omnivorous beastie.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:05:09 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: The RICE Papers

I've finally unhonked the drive that had the RICE Papers on it,
enough to recover most of the data on it.  So far, there are two
documents that weren't recoverable - and they were both from the
RICE Archives.  I'd appreciate replacement copies, if anyone
happened to keep copies.

I need the introductory paper, describing the format of the RICE
Papers, and the Letter from the Trustees, where I decided to
expand beyond just planetary descriptions.

If you've got 'em, _please_ cough 'em up!
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:39:02 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: re: High Guard optional rules: supply

>Steven Hudson wrote:
>I was approaching this first from a design point of view - it really bothered
>me to see multi-kton warships with no cargo space in Supp 9 (Fighting
>Ships). I wanted some basic rules of thumb for designing a fleet so you
>could keep logistics in mind.

I was wondering this when designing a large warship for GT.  In
Vehicles, long duration vehicles have significant extra space
assigned to the motive and power componenets.  One approach
can be to assume that one use of this is to store think like
spare parts.

Similarly, space for a galley, lounge, etc. is take out the space
assigned for crew staterooms.  Presumably, some of this space can
be used for storage of consumables for the crew.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:53:44 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Aliens in Traveller

Sat, 12 Dec 1998 03:49:43 GMT, jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)

>No, not GURPS Traveller Alien Races 1..n, GURPS Aliens.  The
>yellow one.  By Chris McCubbin.  Yeah, that one.
>
>Just curious - which of them do you think would make good aliens
>("minor" races, of course) for the Traveller setting, and how
>would you convert them to CT/MT?

I've used the Cidi as NPCs in my GURPS Traveller campaign.

Coming into port and having your docking fee taken by a 7"
tall alien is memorable.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:08:50 EST
From: TDRandall@aol.com
Subject: hmmmm... still no response

Guess the mass of my prior email didn't dislodge the pipeline.

Time for the Super-Traveler strength Interstellar-Hydrogen-Drano!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:17:50 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS:Trav Alien Races 2

At 05:28 pm 12/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>At 07:46 PM 12/10/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>>Well heck, I'll be glad to do it.  I'm fairly new to Traveller, and don't have
>>any CT material, but I'm literate and GURPS-friendly.  If someone out there
>>wants to collaborate and owns S&A, give me a shout.  Heck, I need the material
>>for my campaign anyhow...  might as well get paid for writing it!
>>  --S
>Unfortunately, you cannot use S&A to write the Aslan portion of AR2.
>Apparently Roger Sanger, (He is the one who owns the DGP copyrights, not
>Paul Sanders) and SJG could not come to an agreement, so thus it DGP
>material cannot be used.

	From what Marc has repeatedly posted, that is not quite true. You
cannot use verbatim from any DGP materials. However, the license
under which DGP produced Traveller materials *explicitly* allowed GDW
(and now Marc) to reuse any of the ideas they choose. The concepts,
ideas and backgrounds in the DGP materials can be used; you just
can't lift the text verbatim and reprint it.
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:39:23 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Role Playing?

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> >:>> I am an aspiring GM, but I havn't even played the game that much and I feel
> >:>> guility for playing because my x girlfriend says Im too old for these games
> >:>> and I am weird for playing them.
> >
> >  I view RPGing as a decendent of the story telling tradition.

I'm a filmmaker, and a lot of people think that's "cool".  I'll tell them about my
company, Walker Jane Productions, and the feature film we are currenlty working on,
"October".  And, then, sometimes, the conversation will drift into "how did I become
interested in movie making".  I respond--always--that movie making is story
telling.  When I was a kid, I used to play with my GI Joe and 8" action figures from
Star Trek or Planet of the Apes.  I would make up these grand stories (scripts),
build places to play with them in the dirt complete with miniture log buildings made
of tree branches (sets), and act out grand epic tales (directing).

When I got older, in high school, I discovered role playing--and I've never stopped
ever since.  In these games, we make huge, all-encompasing campaigns (scripts,
again), and we populate these campaigns with mucho creativity put into our PCs
(character development and backstory).  As a gamemaster, I direct the action of the
session (directing, again), and I put images in my player's head.

The people who I'm talking too, explaining how I've always been a filmmaker but just
never used "film", always look at me a little strange at first.  If I was some bloke
off the street, I would immediately become "a geek" in their eyes, but since I am
what they consider a "cool" filmmaker, I am all of a sudden not a "geek" but an
"eccentric personality".

I don't care what they think.  I love this stuff.  Even as I make this film, I run a
game where we meet twice a month.

I'll probably never stop playing.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:47:43 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Still looking

>Still looking for a volunteer to write the second Alien races book for
>GURPS Traveller. You do realize that you get _paid_ for doing this sort of
>thing?      : )
>
>Where are all the Aslan fans?


I'd say that the problem is the tight schedule, the fact that's its
just about Christmas, and that most of us on here have day jobs
already.

If it was due sometime near the middle of next year, I'd jump at the
opportunity,  I've written half that much text in a couple of weeks working
full time on something I had intimate knowledge of (40,000 odd words
of user manual for a network management system)  but unless I
dedicated my Christmas holidays to nothing but this, (thus causing
all sorts of secondary repercussions in relation to families and
previous commitments.) no way in the suggested time frame.

Give me half a years warning, and I'll write whatever Traveller
stuff you want.
Or any RPG for that matter. Don't mention novels though, got about
four on the go, never been able to finish one :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:55:01 -0500
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Droyne Scout Deckplans

I just added ANOTHER deckplan to my site.  This one is a 100 ton Droyne
Scout.  It doesn't look anything like the image beside the scout detailed in
Alien Module 5, but the displacement for drives, staterooms, cargo, etc.
matches the ship listed.

See: http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html

Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1267
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Sunday, December 13 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1268



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Daibei Info Needed
World Builder Deluxe
re: Space Missile Design
Re: Ditzie Doing It On The Side
Re: Droyne Scout Deckplans
Re: Role Playing?
Re: GURPS Aliens in Traveller
GURPS: Ditzie
Re: High Guard optional rules for supply
Re: G:T battlewagons
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: G:T meson guns
Re: G:T battlewagons
Re: G:T battlewagons
Re: G:T battlewagons
re: High Guard optional rules
Re: GURPS:Trav Alien Races 2
Undead gaming
ALien Races 2
Re: Undead gaming

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:39:30 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Daibei Info Needed

Anybody got a list of the UWP's for Daibei circa 1115?  I've got the TNE 
stats, but I need something *earlier*.

Thanxx in advance.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:14:16 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: World Builder Deluxe

Just a quick note to let you all know that I have revised my World Builder
program to a new improved Deluxe version.

The program generates World Data based on the Digest Group Publications
Megatraveller World Builder's Handbook and also integrates Encounter
Tablesas per T4 rulebook, Psionic Institutes generation as per T4 Psionic
Institutes and World Economy Generation as per T4 Pocket Empires.

The program can be downloaded by selecting the following:-

World Builder Deluxe

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:12:34 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Space Missile Design

>BTW EAPlaC is only the best choice in FF&S1 if you want the very high
>maximum acceleration. HEPlaR + batteries 

        For those of us stuck in CT:HG, what are HEPlaR and EAPlaC technologies?
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:24:26 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Doing It On The Side

At 10:56 AM 12/12/98, you wrote:
>>        The Ambasador said something about oweing Ditzie a frieghter-load of
>>bullion...  know anything about that?
>
>I'm sure Ditzie knows *nothing* about any side deals involving unauthorised
>use of FS resources for 'private projects'. Thats what her fwend Michael is
>for.

        Oh, sorry.  I'll correct Ambassador K'r'gren....

>Now, these overgrown lizards are TL12-13, and UN Space is tech 9, right ?

        UN Technical Maximum is 11 (jump 2), "X" Tech projects are TL 12,
and the UN colonial average is 9.

>OK. Ditzie tells me a defining feature of plasma is that it is short range
>(oh for an r-torp), so what we actually want is a series of small stealthed
>grav-propelled missiles with a plasma gun warhead (FS' High Energy
>Solutions division generally doesnt believe in stealth, putting it's faith
>in firepower, but when you have a 3 TL advantage, stealth is worth it).
>
>Now, given a 3 TL advantage, we should be able to pick out any grav tanks,
>artillery etc that are lying around with a cheap sensor, and then the
>missile dives onto the target, with the plasma firing at 30-50 meters.
>
>This will remove the support forces, letting infantry be cleaned up with
>cluster bombs prior to the actual landing.
>
>Does that fit the client's business requirements ?

        Well, as I said, I know they have got a pile of these toys, I wanted
to know what they looked like.  I am rather sorry I asked. =)

>Oh yeah, Ditzie says that she's got a high tech combat helicopter they may
>be interested in too ... hmmm, are the A gun's stats in Mercenary ?
>

        From Book 4, Mercenary, pp 48,49

        "All high energy weapons hit on a roll of 8+.  Targets with the
blast radius are attacked using the target DMs for a PGMP-12, and, if hit,
suffer 10D damage.  All targets withing half the blast radius are attacked
using the target DMs for a FGMP-14/15 and, if hit, suffer 20D damage".

        System          TL      Crew    Price   Weight  Range   ROF     Burst
        A Gun           10-15   5/3/1   1000    4000    5        2      5

        Where:  Cost - in KCr
                Weight - in kgs
                Range - Max effective in km
                ROF - Max per round by trained crew
                Burst - Per shot radius in meters

>Ian Whitchurch
>
>PS Having the Plasma Missiles clean up the tanks etc means that the PCs get
>to survive, stuck in a foxhole.
>
        Good idea.  Thanks, Ian.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:31:49 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Droyne Scout Deckplans

At 05:55 PM 12/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I just added ANOTHER deckplan to my site.  This one is a 100 ton Droyne
>Scout.  It doesn't look anything like the image beside the scout detailed in
>Alien Module 5, but the displacement for drives, staterooms, cargo, etc.
>matches the ship listed.
>
>See: http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html
>
>Paul@Schirf.com
>

        Nice work, Paul.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:25:38 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Role Playing?

Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> I'm a filmmaker, and a lot of people think that's "cool".

(snipped my own comments)

> When I got older, in high school, I discovered role playing--and I've never stopped
> ever since.

One more thing that's interesting to note.  The lead contender of composers (who will
write the score for "October") is Mason Fisher.  Fisher's credits include music for
SSI's D&D role-playing computer games and the new release of the AD&D Core Rules on
CD-ROM.

More RPG influence on this filmmaker's table...

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:30:01 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Aliens in Traveller

>No, not GURPS Traveller Alien Races 1..n, GURPS Aliens.  The

>yellow one.  By Chris McCubbin.  Yeah, that one.

>

>Just curious - which of them do you think would make good aliens

>("minor" races, of course) for the Traveller setting, and how

>would you convert them to CT/MT?



We just had this conversation...  was it here, or on rec.games.frp.gurps?
Anyhow, the consensus was that ANY of them would make great Minor Races, or
Enigmas...  even the Major races (Ssa, An Phar) work if you just re-write the
history to make them minor.
  --S

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:32:49 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: GURPS: Ditzie

Hey, somebody was just mentioning the long-lost archived writeup of Famile
Spofulam.  I would just LOVE to include them IMTU, as colorful NPC's, and as a
source of materiel.

If somebody could help me find some information, I'd be glad to convert them
to GURPS and post the results!  --S

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:34:14
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules for supply

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: High Guard optional rules for supply (long)
>
>Hmm...  Off hand, i'm leaning towards something like a m3 per maintenance
>point for a full years supplies (parts, lubrication, etc) w/ modifiers for
>machine and electronics shops.  That would fill up ships pretty quick and give
>most of my designs about 1-6 months of independant operation, depending on how
>I actually slice the machine/electronic shops.  I'm thinking have each one cut
>the total supply size by from 10-25%.  What do the gearheads think?
>

I think we have to remember that for the last 130 years or so, naval
vessels have tended to be exceedingly 'bleeding edge' technology.

Before steam engines, explosive shells and torpedos sparked off the
continuing naval revolution, military sailing ships did not substantially
change in design for three hundred years, and could be sent on two or three
year voyages, with no resupply but water and food.

Now, the slow pace of technological development in Traveller will mean many
to most military ships will be dealing with stable, mature technologies.

Fundamentally, it is a design decision as to whether ships should be able
to conduct year-long voyages without resupply, or if they should be tied to
a resupply point.

Finally, if you want a 'Armed Auxiliary Fleet Tender', check out the
Elisabeth class Frontier Trader in the THUDDD competitions. Jump-3, armed
with a bay laser.

>I actually don't think the stock rules were far off the mark (especially for
>ground vehicles).  I've personally witnessed a well maintained M1A1 go out to
>the field and have *something* friggin fail within 8 hours, which requires a
>full crew to be working on that piece of *#$% until well past 0300.  It's
>usually something electronic or mechanical (the mechanical is usually easily
>fixed... the electronic has to be shipped somewhere), but sometimes its
due to
>operation... throwing track, get stuck in the mud, etc.  In general,
though, u
>do your maintenance and have nothing to worry bout.  

M1A1s are very much bleeding edge technology. This may or may not apply
with Traveller military starships. If it does apply, then we need to think
about how it affects civilian starships.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:17:10
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: G:T battlewagons

>>>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>>>Subject: Re: Possible solution to the armor problem

>>Undamageable with or without meson guns ?
>
>Will, obviously without, since armor doesn't stop meson guns.  But
>the same factor (not having to push the weight around) would
>probably let you load up on meson screens.

Imagine a 50 kton battlecruiser, G:T 12, designed to operate in line of
battle. We want a sporting chance at surviving Bay meson guns.

Now, we have 510 000 m2 of surface area (or whatever G:T uses for surface
areas ... me, I think in dtons and m2 for surface area).

Therefore, Meson Screen modules will get us DR 40 apiece (20.8 million/510 k).

Now, a Bay Meson Gun has an expected damage of 30 000 or so, so 1500 Meson
Screen units (3% of ship volume) will get DR 60 000. It will cost about MCr
3000, or about 7 times the cost of the weapon it is designed to defend
against (and about 3 times the cost of a Spinal Meson Gun).

This will happily stop a Bay meson gun most of the time, but will be
ineffective at stopping a Spinal Meson Gun.

To have a sporting chance at stopping a spinal meson gun, we need Meson DR
of about 200 000, or in the case of our 50 kton battlewagon, a number of
Meson Screen modules about equal in volume to the ship.

Note that, for a 50 kton ship, the number of Meson Screen modules
neccessary to stop a Bay weapon could fit a Spinal meson gun.

Thus, I believe that Spinal Meson guns will be mounted in ships of around
10 ktons, and that battleships larger than this are unlikely to be combat
effective under G:T rules.

I believe the usual 'mixed' armament will apply, with bay weapons being of
the other type to the spinal weapon.

>We did postulate that a ship could target the ships sensors
>(do densiometers have to be on the outside of the ship?  I
>guess neutrino detectors don't, could you target with those?)
>and where the guns stick out and then take you time boring a
>hole in it.  But for game play purposes I wouldn't make
>armor better.

In G:T, we have a critical hit rule that allows armour to be reduced by
90%. Hell, if lo-tech high-skill fighters can whale away until one of them
gets a crit on their attack rolls, then battlewagons can too.

>
>Also, as David Pulver pointed out on the Pyramid GT message board,
>there is a problem that small ships can have a problem damaging
>each other if armor is made better.

So ?

Remember, Infernet raised the white flag at Trafalger when he came under
fire from the tenth and eleventh British ships to engage him ... 'modern'
naval combat is actually unusual, where ships can and do sink after the
first solid hit.

In fact, ships being hard to hurt is *good*, because it allows boarding
actions and such.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:40:57
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

>From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
>Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes
>
>On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:
>
>  And why wouldn't the miners (or whatever) work maybe 1-3 month shifts on
>the hellhole resource world, and then travel one jump home to the garden
>world to spend their obscene pay with their families.(Who probably
>wouldn't be too happy living in a mine anyway.) This is pretty much the
>eqiuvalent of what modern oil rig workers do.
>

Well, first of all, just because it has a type 6 atmosphere and some water
doesnt mean it's a garden world. 

Secondly, the jump home and back is going to cost about Cr 8000 round trip,
so with 3 trips a year, thats KCr 24 in transport costs, which is about
double the average income on a TL11 world. You might as well bring the
husband and kids, have him work in the Life Support system, and have the
kids in a creche (or share shifts, or whatever). Cash in your vouchers at
two-thirds of par, then after 5 years you have KCr 90.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:30:39
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: G:T meson guns

>From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
>Subject: Converting High Guard stats
>
>TL12 Meson Spinal mount (T equivalent in HIGH GUARD):
>
>1/2 damage range: 10 hexes
>Max Range       : 29 hexes
>Damage          : 5d6x25,800 (average damage is 451,500
>RoF per minute  : 4
>RoF bonus       : +6

Nope. A G:T Spinal Meson Gun takes up a mere 1500 or so dtons *including*
power plant.

It's more like a J-gun than a T-gun.

OK, lets demonstrate the problem. Prices are rounded up to the nearest
megacredit, to account for Ditzie's Retirement Fund. Masses are rounded up,
to account for the designer getting back from a party at 2 AM.

The class name is the 'Jacquerie'.

G:T Pocket Battleship ; TL12, 5000 dtons

Unstreamlined Hull : 55t, MCr 6

12t/dton armour : 60 000t, MCr 720  <DR 36363>

4x Command Bridges : 32 dton, 100t, MCr 58 <Hardened> <16 crew>

Engineering : 1 space, 4t, MCr 1 <1 crew>

Utility : 10 dtons, 115t, MCr 3

64 Nuke Dampers : 64 dtons, 640t, MCr 256 <40 mile range>

Spinal Meson Gun : 1512 dtons, 15 120t, MCr 939 <?? crew. I am assuming 15>

2 Particle Bays : 100 dtons, 935 t, MCr 45 <4 crew>

1 Missile Bay : 50 dtons, 620t, MCr 1 <2 crew>

10 Triple Laser Turrets : 10 dtons, 250t, MCr 21 <10 crew>

750 M-drive modules : 750 dtons, 3000t, MCr 220 <5 crew>

Jump-4 drive : 250 dtons, 1000 t, MCr 1525 <5 crew>

Jump-4 fuel : 2000 dtons, 2600 t, MCr 320

38 staterooms : 152 dtons, 76t, MCr 1 <6 single, 32 double staterooms> 


Now, the ship pulls roughly one gee, so it cant chase down much.

More to the point, it is reliant on external refueling (having an acute
lack of fuel shuttles, streamlining and fuel processors).

It's missile defenses are barely adequate, having a bay dedicated to
counter-missile work, ten triple laser turrets and a nuke damper.

But it pulls a jump-4, mounts a Spinal Meson gun, costs MCr 4120, and has
armour thick enough to shrug off most hits from a bay-mounted PAW.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:57:18 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: G:T battlewagons

At 11:17 AM 13/12/98, you wrote:
>>Also, as David Pulver pointed out on the Pyramid GT message board,
>>there is a problem that small ships can have a problem damaging
>>each other if armor is made better.
>
>So ?
>
>Remember, Infernet raised the white flag at Trafalger when he came under
>fire from the tenth and eleventh British ships to engage him ... 'modern'
>naval combat is actually unusual, where ships can and do sink after the
>first solid hit.

        The problem is that in modern navy combat, *anybody* can carry a
weapon that has the same relative effects as a TRAVELLER spinal-mount...
"Harpoon"-type missiles, fired in a four-shot salvo will crit-the-crap out
of even the heaviest Soviet cruiser...  the only thing "exempt" from them is
the US battleships;  and *nothing* is exempt from *thier* 14" rifles...
        Offense has outstripped defense in the late 20th C, so everyone
builds lots of small ships to ensure there is still one platform with a
fire-control solution. =)

>In fact, ships being hard to hurt is *good*, because it allows boarding
>actions and such.
>
>Ian Whitchurch

        I agree wholeheartedly.  My players *hate* boarding actions, because
you can (and they have) find yourself in the situation of loosing the action
to the crew of the ship you just disabled...  ;)
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 15:03:01 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: G:T battlewagons

At 11:17 13/12/98, Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>>Also, as David Pulver pointed out on the Pyramid GT message board,
>>there is a problem that small ships can have a problem damaging
>>each other if armor is made better.
>
>So ?
>
>Remember, Infernet raised the white flag at Trafalger when he came under
>fire from the tenth and eleventh British ships to engage him ... 'modern'
>naval combat is actually unusual, where ships can and do sink after the
>first solid hit.
>
>In fact, ships being hard to hurt is *good*, because it allows boarding
>actions and such.

There is a theory that naval technology from the post Classical era onwards
can be viewed as the search for a way to return to the days of ram equipped
triremes. With those technologies one hit kills were tricky to acheive, but
not outrageously difficult. Since then ships became tougher in relation to
the weapons that they could mount, and this didn't change until exploding
shells made of good steel came along. Even with WWI technology ships were
very tough and difficult to sink when well made (look at the pounding the
German BCs took without sinking). Those major ships that sank did so as a
result of poor design rather than the superiority of offense over defense
(IMO if the technology was mature rather than cutting edge this wouldn't
have happened). 

I'd suggest that in some ways this still applies today. Modern ships are
esay to sink because they aren't heavily armoured, not because we can't
protect them from other ships. It's the aircraft and submarines that heavy
suits of armour won't stop protect against, not other ships.

In Traveller there are no equivilents of aircraft and subs, with the
ability to bypass traditional defenses (except the Meson Gun, perhaps), and
so there is no reason to not put all that armour on. I see nothing wrong
with the HG has ships thumping away until someone loses enough armour to
get seriously damaged, or until a damage roll gets lucky. While I really
like TNE's _Battle Rider_ this is one aspect I don't like about it - it is
possible to design ships that can't be destroyed by similar sized ships
(mind you they generally can't hurt the other guy, either) unless Meson
Guns are in use, simply because armour doesn't go away.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:18:17 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: G:T battlewagons

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> the only thing "exempt" from them is
> the US battleships;  and *nothing* is exempt from *thier* 14" rifles...

16"/50 caliber, if you're referring to the recently re-decommissioned
IOWAs.

>         Offense has outstripped defense in the late 20th C, so everyone
> builds lots of small ships to ensure there is still one platform with a
> fire-control solution. =)
> 
> >In fact, ships being hard to hurt is *good*, because it allows boarding
> >actions and such.
> >
> >Ian Whitchurch
> 
>         I agree wholeheartedly.  My players *hate* boarding actions, because
> you can (and they have) find yourself in the situation of losing the action
> to the crew of the ship you just disabled...  ;)

Such as the time we managed to cram (for a _very_ short period of time!)
a company or so of powered armor infantry aboard a derelict
BROADSWORD-class merc cruiser.  We took a 25,000 dt Zhodani light
cruiser that way....  (The Zhos were looking for the former owners of
said BROADSWORD, the command and staff of a mercenary unit that had just
been decimated.  I could tell you more, but then I'd have to degauss
your hard drive...and your _brain_.  ;-)

Pity we had to give the ship back...after the Imperial Navy boffins had
studied him for a couple of months.


- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:01:02 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: High Guard optional rules

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>A 3000tn Frigate with all energy weapons requires 15tns of cargo for
>a month of independent operations.
>
>A 3000tn Missile Frigate with two 100tn missile bays and ten laser turrets
>would require 35tns of cargo for a month of independent ops.
>
>A 3000tn Escort Carrier with 80 15tn light fighters on board would
>require 135tns of cargo space per month of independent ops.
>
>Comments?

The figures seems a touch on the low side, if anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Perhaps...but remember the drives supposedly go a year between
(intensive) maintenance, and that fuel is already taken care of in
the design. Also, most weapons have no ammunition requirements.
This should reduce the cargo needs somewhat from what a 20th c.
wet navy ship needs for combat.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:04:04 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: GURPS:Trav Alien Races 2

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> writes:
>>>Well heck, I'll be glad to do it.  I'm fairly new to Traveller, and
>don't have
>>>any CT material, but I'm literate and GURPS-friendly.  If someone
>out there
>>>wants to collaborate and owns S&A, give me a shout.  Heck, I need
>the material
>>>for my campaign anyhow...  might as well get paid for writing it!
>>>  --S
>>Unfortunately, you cannot use S&A to write the Aslan portion of AR2.
>>Apparently Roger Sanger, (He is the one who owns the DGP copyrights,
>not
>>Paul Sanders) and SJG could not come to an agreement, so thus it DGP
>>material cannot be used.
>
>	From what Marc has repeatedly posted, that is not quite true. You
>cannot use verbatim from any DGP materials. However, the license
>under which DGP produced Traveller materials *explicitly* allowed GDW
>(and now Marc) to reuse any of the ideas they choose. The concepts,
>ideas and backgrounds in the DGP materials can be used; you just
>can't lift the text verbatim and reprint it.

I'd go further than David:

I think it's incumbent upon you to try to retain as much of all previously
published material as possible.  Everything every published is available
from someone here on the TML, so if you do land the contract there will be
plenty of people who could check your work.

That said, if you discover a contradiction than you'll have to resolve it
(or indicate that sources are contradictory, which happens in The Real
World (tm) all the time). Just don't repeat the mistakes of some Imperium
Games authors, who decided that what they didn't know wasn't important to
fans, and basically tore up whole chunks of Traveller history.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:37:13 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Undead gaming

Ken scrobe:

> 
> I'll probably never stop playing.
> 
> Kenneth.
> 

Scary... you're really into this vampire/undead thing, aren't you?

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:41:26 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: ALien Races 2

Sorry.... bit out of it recently....

Could whoever was looking for someone to do part of this book email me
privately with the whole sordid tale? I don't know who posted the original
message, y'see.

But yeah, I might know a man who can do it.....

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 03:45:49 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Undead gaming

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Scary... you're really into this vampire/undead thing, aren't you?

Ah...the film has changed quite a bit in the last year.  Last February,
I stopped working on "Sunday Morning", the first film I was working on.
I met with some SFX guys, and I realized the vampire movie I was working
on would cost too much to make as my first feature.

So, I switched to another one of my screenplays, a film called
"October".  This is a love story drama.  I'd put it in the same genre as
Good Will Hunting, Chasing Amy, and Indecent Proposal.

But, I get your point.  And, I do love gaming.

Take care,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1268
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Sunday, December 13 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1269



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

PE Spreadsheet v1.60 (beta)
Off Topic: Season's Hailings
BITS website now has V1.5.1 of AM-V's Pocket Empires spreadsheet.
re: World Builder Deluxe
Fw: GURPS Traveller campaign idea
Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: colonising hellholes
CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead Warning - Long)
Re: Ditzie Doing It On The Side
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1268
GURPS silliness
Re: World Builder Deluxe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:53:02 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: PE Spreadsheet v1.60 (beta)

I'm doing some testing on the latest (and hopefully definitive) version of my PE 
spreadsheets. This new version uses a lot of functions I'm a lot less than fully 
familar with and is likely to contain a number of bugs. If anyone (more familar 
with Excel than me) would like to look at the beta, please email me. Also is 
there anybody out there who is familar with Lotus 1-2-3r4; I would like to make 
a Lotus version (for 1-2-3 release 4, its the only version I have), but my 
knowledge of 1-2-3 is worse than my knowledge of Excel.

Pocket Empires Version 1.60
This is a spreadsheet to handle some of the calculations involved in running a 
Pocket Empires campaign. The spreadsheet currently:

  -  Calculates the GDP for each world
  -  Calculates Government Income, Fixed Expenses and
     Available Budget for each world
  -  Calculates Popularity and Prestige for each
     individual world
  -  Features a worksheet for calculating the prestige
     of multiworld Empires
  -  Calculates the trade codes for each world
  -  Calculates the initial Resource, Infrastructure and
     Culture scores for each world
  -  Calculates the Resource demand for each world
  -  Calculates the Resource trade benefits for each
     world

The sheet is capable of handling up to 350 worlds (roughly the size of an 
average Imperial Sector). To add more worlds just copy and paste the 
appropriate lines (however note there are fixed references to interstellar demand 
and import and export benefits in rows S (resouces available) and W (total 
GDP) of the GDP sheet and these will need to be edited manually [all 
references to "Constants!" sheet]).

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 03:55:59 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Off Topic: Season's Hailings

Captain's Log: Season's hailings
    By Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Federation of Planets

Twas the night before Christmas
Stardate unknown,
We were completing a scan
Upon the neutral zone

When what on the screen, Data had perceived
A hailing frequency moving at warp speed.
"I'm picking up a vessel new to the Federation
With an apparent greeting  -
A salutation!"

As Ferenghi before the pressed latinum gleam
Came a cluster of stars in a tractor beam
When out in subspace
There arose anti-matter
I quickly called "Mr. Ryker
"Let us deal with the matter."

More rapid than Klingons
The onslaught had begun
I opened hailing frequencies
"Set Phasers to stun!"

When what to my astounded eyes I did see
Was an antiquated sleigh
>From another century
With an arrogant driver
Holding hostages I knew
It could only be my odious adversary
Q!

Those who pulled the sleigh
Filled me with rage,
Then with fear
They were heroes of our past
As sort of human reindeer

"On with you, my crew
Spock, Kirk,
Bones and Uhuru,
On with you,
Nurse Chappell,
Yeoman Rand and Sulu!

To the top of the planet!
to the edge of Farpoint!
Together!
Together!
Let us not disjoint!!!

As Geordie checked for damage
Dr. Crusher prepared
To tend to any crewmen
Who might be ensnared

"Speak not a word more, Q,"
I said with a sneer
"Just tell me,
What the blazes are you doing here?"

"I haven't the time for your insolent pranks
Since you're not with MY crew,
Then kindly break ranks"

As I stood at my post,
Worf readied to fight
But I held out my hand saying,
"Q's leaving!  Right?!!"

He answered me not
But went straight to his work
And pointing a finger
He turned with a jerk

More rapid than force fields
The ship had been full
Of presents, and trimmings
Transcending the dull

"Lighten up, old Jean-Luc,
Don't be such a bore.
It's Christmas for mortals
The Q gave you the store.

"While you certainly are
An inferior form,
But for at least one day
Even Q's can be warm."

I admit I was stunned
As though hit by a Borg
But this vessel had been
As dead as a morgue

There had been no adventures,
No crises to handle,
And we needed this hoiday
Then Q lit a wax candle

Q went straight to a sack
And withdrew many presents
Handing each one to a crew member
One to every one present

"Here, Guinan,
Here, Data
Here, Ryker and Troi
A bar guide
A compass
A Ouija board toy"

The gifts Q gave out
All seemed so appropo'
That it had phased me greatly,
"This cannot be so!"

"I cannot believe
You are who you claim.
I think if you ARE Q,
Then this is a game!

You'll set us all up
And then we'll be your pawns
Take it all away,
And make yourself gone!"

Then Q gave out a sigh,
And blew on a ship's whistle
His disguise dissapeared
Like the down of a thistle

And now he was changed
To a jolly old elf
And I laughed as I saw him
In spite of myself.

He had a white beard
And a pulchritudinous belly
That shook when he laughed
Like some replicated jelly

Then I heard him exclaim,
E're he beamed out of sight,
"Merry Christmas, Trekkers all
And to all a good night!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:18:49 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS website now has V1.5.1 of AM-V's Pocket Empires spreadsheet.

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

*The BITS website now has v1.5.1 of Andrew Moffatt-Vallance's Excel 5
'Pocket Empires' spreadsheet. This version is a bug fix from version 1.5.0,
and can be found in the arcives page.

- ----
BTW, has anyone any thoughts on the subsector map? (the author is curious).

Dom (BITS webmaster)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:30:54 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: World Builder Deluxe

"Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:

>The program generates World Data based on the Digest Group Publications
>Megatraveller World Builder's Handbook and also integrates Encounter
>Tablesas per T4 rulebook, Psionic Institutes generation as per T4 Psionic
>Institutes and World Economy Generation as per T4 Pocket Empires.

Stuart,

How did you get around the prblems with T4's encounters and Alien creature
generation? Did you use MT when the problems appeared?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 07:21:15 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Fw: GURPS Traveller campaign idea

I sent this message to prospective players in my GURPS Traveller game, and
am now sending it to all of you, to see what YOU think of my idea :) I might
add that this as of yet unnamed agency may be turning to X-TEK and Famile
Spofulam for some of it's equipment needs...<g>

Allen



>A different kind of Traveller campaign:
>
>    In this campaign, the characters are agents of a special Intelligence
>agency created by Archduke Norris. Norris feels that the problems faced by
>the Domain of Deneb, and in particular the Spinward Marches sector, are
>different than those of the rest of the Imperium, and the standard Imperial
>intelligence agencies are not always up to the task of dealing with them. He
>has established Special Intelligence groups in each of the sectors under his
>authority; the characters in this campaign are agents of the group for the 
>Spinward Marches sector.
>    The campaign will focus on missions that deal with the entire spectrum
>of political issues facing the Spinward Marches. Example missions include
>counter-intelligence operations against Zhodani agents; anti-terrorism
>missions against the Ine Givar and other groups; "fact-finding" missions in
>the Darrian Confederation or the Sword Worlds; investigation of strange
>reports involving the Droyne, and others.
>
>    Character creation will involve building 200 point characters by
>choosing two templates, one of which must be the Undercover Agent template,
>and combining them. (The template system is not optional for this
campaign.)
>Duplicate skills will be dealt with by either choosing a different
>speciality, or combining the points and calculating the new skill level
>according to the rules. (Example: if both templates give Piloting at DX +1
>for 4 points, the character can choose to take two specializations, perhaps
>Spacecraft and Grav Vehicle, or combine the points and take one
>specialization at 8 points, or DX +3). of course, additional points,
>Advantages and Disadvantages may be taken to bring the characters to the
>required 200 points. Attributes are handled this way; no attribute can be
>improved by more than +2 over the highest attribute given by the two
>templates; thus is one has DX 10, and the other DX 12, the highest the DX
>can be taken to is 14 points. This prevents over min-maxing and spending too
>much on attributes and not enough on other skills. There will be a required
>Duty disad, which of course will not count towards the 40 point limit. Also,
>we will be playing this "troupe-style"; you will make not just one agent but
>three (and possibly more), and will be able to choose which one you play on
>each mission. This way, you won't be playing that awesome social character
>on a mission involving mainly blowing things up. Alien characters
>(specifically Vargr, Aslan and even defected Zhodani) will be allowed, as
>will Psionic characters.
>
>    This campaign will, in my opinion, better utilize the strengths of the
>GURPS system and enable us to dig much deeper into the rich, intrigue-filled
>setting of the Spinward Marches than a "standard" Traveller campaign might.
>
>Comments are requested.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:05:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

In mail you write:

> On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:
>  
>> The short answer is 'exploitable export resource'.
>> 
>> If you assume 1000 miners and life support techs, each with 10 dtons of
>> gear, topsoil, LOx etc, being transported 10 parsecs at Cr 4000 per parsec
>> for passengers and Cr 800 per parsec for freight, you get a cost of MCr 48.
>> Add another KCr 20 per dton in actual cost of gear, and it goes up to MCr
>> 250 or so.
>
>   This is the one scenario I _can_ stomach: resource worlds. What I can't
> figure out, though, is why you would need something like 5 billion people
> to exploit the resources of a 200km airless rockball...
>
>> Pretty easy to amortise that, especially if you can import food from a
>> nearby world with a biosphere.
>>
>   ...while the nice, balmy garden world next door has a couple of
> dozen inhabitants.

It may be owned by *very* unfriendly people. Or it may be easy to live
on, but have no resources worth the trouble. 

>  > Of course, as time goes on, people regard the world as 'home', start to 
> put
>> down roots, raise families, dig more caves, build or import more life
>> support gear etc etc.
>> 
>   And why wouldn't the miners (or whatever) work maybe 1-3 month shifts on
> the hellhole resource world, and then travel one jump home to the garden
> world to spend their obscene pay with their families.(Who probably
> wouldn't be too happy living in a mine anyway.) This is pretty much the
> eqiuvalent of what modern oil rig workers do.

But compare passage costs. High or middle passage costs a *lot* more
than airfare. And there's still the problem of the "nice" world
possibly being off limits.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:23:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

In mail you write:

>>From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
>>Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes
>>
>>On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:
>>
>>  And why wouldn't the miners (or whatever) work maybe 1-3 month shifts on
>>the hellhole resource world, and then travel one jump home to the garden
>>world to spend their obscene pay with their families.(Who probably
>>wouldn't be too happy living in a mine anyway.) This is pretty much the
>>eqiuvalent of what modern oil rig workers do.
>
> Well, first of all, just because it has a type 6 atmosphere and some water
> doesnt mean it's a garden world. 

Yeah, for one thing, there's a 50% chance that the amino acids have the
wrong handedness. And the same goes for sugars. As I recall Earth has
right-handed amino acids and left-handed sugars, but I may have that
backwards. 

At a minimum wrong-handed material has *no* food value. At worst, it's
actively detrimental. 

So you could have a garden world that you could starve to death on. And
establishing "Terran" plants and animals in the face of a healthy
native ecology won't be much fun.

Another possibility is that there are *natives*, and they don't want a
bunch of "aliens" running around on their planet.

The wrong-handedness bit is the most *likely* form of
bio-incompatability, but others are possible, such as lacking vital
amino acids, having large amounts of amino acids not found in terran
life, or having some form of carbohydrate *other* than sugar & starch
be how the plant life stores energy.

Any of these can be a mean, rotten trick to play on characters when
they land on an unexplored "garden" world.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:20:36 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead Warning - Long)

        The current UN Colonial Marine Corp hitter.  Troops are usually
moved for garrison duty by chartered liner under escort.  However, when the
CMC needs to hit something, this is how they get there.

        O/___________________________
        O\
SHIP'S DESCRIPTIVE PARAGRAPH

2050 - Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT)
TL 10.  1000 tons.
Using a 1000-ton, Cylinder hull, the Alpine-Class Planetary Assault Ship
(Type BT) carries a full company to their intended point of invasion.  She
carries enough Jump Capsule launchers and High-Survivability Capsules to
ensure that the entire unit makes the LZ in one wave.  An attack shuttle
follows in bringing down ready-for-action G-Carriers to support the troops.
It is performance-rated at jump-1, 1-G acceleration and 20EP.
Fuel tankage for 140 tons supports the power plant for 8 weeks and 1 jump-1.
The ship is  fitted with fuel scoops and a purification plant.
Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model/2bis.
There are 91 staterooms, no standard low berths and no emergency low berths.
The ship has 10 turrets. There are 15 beam lasers mounted in five turrets
organised into five batteries.  There are 15 missile racks mounted in five
turrets organised into five batteries.   For defence it has an agility of
0.  There is a 13.5-ton magazine and are 10% nuclear weapons normally carried.
There are 132 ship's vehicles.  123 Jump-Troop High-Survivability Capsules,
8 G-Carriers and 1 Shuttle are carried.
Cargo capacity is 14 tons.
The hull is partially streamlined.
All of the Alpine's batteries are tied into counterbattery systems, to allow
defence-suppression by orbital bombardment in support of the landing.
There are 0.67 tons of waste space.
The Alpine-Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) requires a crew of 23.  10
Command Section, 3 Engineering, 10 Gunnery and 2 Flight Section are
required.  3 full UN-CMC platoons are carried.
The Shuttle Pilot operates the Shuttle.  The G-Carriers are operated by the
Marines.
The ship costs MCr401.81, including architects fees and takes 120 months to
build.  24 of these ships were built between 2050 and 2058.  The lead ship
was the UN-DNS Alps.

        O/___________________________
        O\
SHIP DESIGN WORKSHEET				                               1.  Date of Preparation	
                                                                            
                    2050
2.  Ship name			3.  Ship Type			                        4.  Tech Level
UN-DNS Alps			Alpine-Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT)			 10 

5.  Hull		Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	Factor
Hull					1000		 100.00 			A
Configuration		Cylinder		 	-   				3
Armor		 			-   	 	-   				0
Waste Space		 		0.67 				
	Subtotals	 		0.67 	 	100.00 			

6.  Drives		Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	Factor
Jump Drive		 		20.00 	 	80.00 			1	1
Maneuver		 		20.00 	 	30.00 			1	1
Power Plant		 		60.00 	 	180.00 	 	20.00 	2	2
Jump Fuel		 		100.00 				
Power Plant Fuel		 	20.00 				
Excess Fuel		 		20.00 				
Special Tanks						
Purification		 		13.33 	 	0.07 			
Fuel Scoops			 			2.00 			
	Subtotals	 		253.33 	 	292.07 	 	20.00 	 3.00 	

7.  Controls		Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	Factor
Bridge		 			20.00 	 	5.00 		10	
Aux Bridge						
Computer		5/9	 	6.00 	 	27.00 	 	1.00 		C
Aux Computer		0	 	-   	 	-   	 	-   		0
	Subtotals	 		26.00 	 	32.00 	 	1.00 		10	

8.  Weaponry		Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	Factor
Major Weapon						0	 	-   
Bay Repulsor						 		
Bay Energy						    
Bay Particle						    
Bay Meson						    
Bay Missiles						    
Turret Sand						    
Turret Lasers	15 Wpns, 5 Turr, 5 Btry	 5.00 	 	15.00 	 	15.00 	5	 3.00 
Turret Energy						 -   
Turret Particle						 -   
Turret Missiles	15 Wpns, 5 Turr, 5 Btry	 5.00 	 	11.25 			5	 2.00 
Barbette Particle						 -   
	Subtotals	 		10.00 	 	26.25 	 	15.00 	10	

9.  Screens		Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	Factor
Meson Screen		 		-   	 	-   	 	-   	0	0
Nuclear Damper		 		-   	 	-   	 	-   	0	0
Force Field		 		-   	 	-   		0	0
Deflector Screen							0	0
	Subtotals	 		-   	 	-   	 	-   	0	

10.  Facilities	Remarks			Tons		MCr			Crew	
Small Craft Hangars		 	123.50 	 	0.25 			
Big Craft Hangars			 -   			
Launch Facilities						
Launch Tubes			 	-   		0	
Jump Capsule Facil's		 	123.00 	 	1.23 			
Vehicles		 		72.00 				
	Subtotals	 		318.50 	 	1.48 			0	

Crew Lists			Officers	Crew			
Command Section			7	3			
Engineering			1	2			
Gunnery				4	6			
Flight Section			1	1			
Ship's Troops	3 Platoons	21	102			
Service Crew						
Passengers						
	Subtotals		34	114			

11.  Quarters				Tons		MCr			Crew	
Single Staterooms	 34 	 	136.00 	 	17.00 			34	
Double Staterooms	 57 	 	228.00 	 	28.50 			114	
Low Berths		 -   	 	-   		0	
Emergency Low		 -   	 	-   		0	
	Subtotals	 		364.00 	 	45.50 			148	

12.  Cargo		Remarks		Tons				
Cargo		Potential : 0.0 tons	 14.00 				
Mail						
Magazine	135 missiles	 	13.50 				
		 			27.50 				

13.  Totals		Remarks		Tons		MCr		EP	Crew	
Hull					0.67	 	100.00 		0	
Drives					253.33	 	292.07 	 	20.00 	3	
Controls				26.00	 	32.00 	 	(1.00)	10	
Weapons					10.00	 	26.25 	 	(15.00)	10	
Screens					0.00	 	-   	 	-   	0	
Facilities				318.50	 	1.48 			0	
Quarters				364.00	 	45.50 			
Cargo					27.50				
	Subtotals			1000.00		497.29		4.0	23	
Architect's Fees					4.97			
Discounts						-100.45				Agility
Totals					1000.00		401.81		4.0	23	0.4

14.  Notes						
The Alpine-Class Planetary Assault Ship carries a full company to their
intended point of 
invasion.  She carries enough Jump Capsule launchers and High-Survivability
Capsules to ensure 
that the entire unit makes the LZ in one wave.  An attack shuttle follows in
bringing down 
ready-for-action G-Carriers to support the troops.  All of the Alpine's
batteries are tied 
into counterbattery systems, to allow defense-suppresion by orbital
bombardment in support 
of the landing.
						
        O/___________________________
        O\
COMMENTS

        I did this up in response to someone's question about Kton-troop
carriers.  I kept the size and TL down for use in my TNEC universe.  You
could carve a beach-head with a few of this size of ship, while other ships
moved re-enforcement troops in more slowly over the next few hours.  The HSC
jump systems are from Striker Advanced Rules, and cost Cr50,000 each...
Finest kit money can buy for Jump Troops.
        A TL 15 version at 10Kton gives you 15 fully equipped platoons as
per above (42 Marines per platoon, 615 capsules, 15 shuttles and 120
G-Carriers), plus 2Jp2 range & 2g's, with combat systems upgraded to add
factor 3 armor, 5 USP 9 repulsors, 4 USP 5 PAWs, USP 9 Nuclear Dampers, and
has 100 tons of cargo for extended operations.  If anyone wants the ship
design sheet for that one or the SDP, email me and I'll send it to you.

        Comments, questions and corrections always welcome...

        Regards,
           Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:08:09 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Ditzie Doing It On The Side

>cluster bombs prior 

Dear Miss Ditzie

It appears I will shortly be in need of a high-capacity point-defense
system, capable of dealing with individually-targeted cluster bombs.  A
repulso-based system capable of throwing incoming munitions back at the
invading rotters has a certain charm, don't you think?

Would you, perchance, have time in your busy schedule to accomodate my
request?


A sincere admirer

Robert Prior

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 9:10:34 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1268

> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:04:04 -0500
> From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
> Subject: Re: GURPS:Trav Alien Races 2
> 
> I'd go further than David:
> 
> I think it's incumbent upon you to try to retain as much of all previously
> published material as possible.  Everything every published is available
> from someone here on the TML, so if you do land the contract there will be
> plenty of people who could check your work.
> 
> That said, if you discover a contradiction than you'll have to resolve it
> (or indicate that sources are contradictory, which happens in The Real
> World (tm) all the time). Just don't repeat the mistakes of some Imperium
> Games authors, who decided that what they didn't know wasn't important to
> fans, and basically tore up whole chunks of Traveller history.

Here, here.  I'll confess that I refuse to consider the bulk of M:0 canon
IMTU for that very reason.  My biggest problem with M:0 was that it
basically started by ignoring previously published material, and never 
looked back.  The products by and large "felt" as if they didn't care for
the history and tradition of Traveller itself - that this was the way it
was and if I didn't like it, I didn't have to buy it.

Well, I didn't.  Not that there weren't problems in the product, but to
be honest, being in the con business, after the initial release (core 
rules), the enthusiasm of the faithful waned - and potential new players
were very aware of it.  It didn't attract the TNE crowd, because the
background wasn't relevant.  It lost the CT crowd, because while the rules
did their best to "look" like CT, it wasn't.

Rob, I seriously hope that Marc and others who write for Traveller, as
well as Loren and SJG, and any others who work on the next edition of 
Traveller, have those two paragraphs in front of them at all times.

I'll go so far as to say I won't buy anything unless it conforms to that
"statement of faith".


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:35:23 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: GURPS silliness

I've just been thinking about the Traveller/GURPS conversion system.  You
know, it works both ways.

Just think:  Traveller Lensman
                 Traveller Atomic Horror

but not, of course, Traveller Discworld...

Maybe that's the real Secret of the Ancients.  Yaskoydray discovered one of
his children was building a very strange planet...  No?  I didn't think so.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:38:22 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: World Builder Deluxe

Stuart Ferris wrote:

>Just a quick note to let you all know that I have revised my World
Builder
>program to a new improved Deluxe version.
>
>The program generates World Data based on the Digest Group Publications

>Megatraveller World Builder's Handbook and also integrates Encounter
>Tablesas per T4 rulebook, Psionic Institutes generation as per T4
Psionic
>Institutes and World Economy Generation as per T4 Pocket Empires.

Win95, does this work with NT?  or better yet are you willing to allow
someone to convert it to Macintosh or Linux?

Charles

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1269
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, December 14 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1270



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1269
Imperium, 2e, needed
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1269
Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
Re: High Guard Magazines
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: World Builder Deluxe
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1268
Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
Re: Undead gaming
Re: various stuff (certified Ditzie free)
re: Space Missile Design
Re: G:T battlewagons
re: Space Missile Design
FS helicopter
CHAT DISCUSSION
Terran Battleships (WAS: Re: G:T battlewagons)
Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
Intoxicating stomach dwelling bacteria
Circle Sea PE PBEM
Re: Undead gaming
Re: Alternate Universe Rational
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: Transporting fuel insystem

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:45:04 EST
From: LtSnuggles@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1269

unsubscribe Traveller-digest

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:24:25 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Imperium, 2e, needed

I'm trying to locate a copy of Imperium - the 2nd edition - for a friend
new to Traveller, for Christmas (honest - it's for him, really!)  Any
suggestions on a dealer (or gamer with more copies than they need) who can
help me out?  I'm  trying to get a new - or like new - copy.  Please
contact me off-list with any suggestions or leads...

Tx!


Bill Rutherford

worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:21:43 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1269

SD Mooney wrote:

>How did you get around the problems with T4's encounters and >Alien
creature generation? Did you use MT when the problems appeared?

The Encounter generation is a amalgamation of the CT, MT and T4 rules. There
is a bit of them all in the code. It seems to work okay though?

Charles R Hensley wrote:

>Win95, does this work with NT?  or better yet are you willing to >allow
someone to convert it to Macintosh or Linux?

It is a Visual Basic program so, it should work with Windows NT. If someone
wishes to convert the program to the Mac or Linux then I will happily
provide the source code. It isn't the tidiest or efficient bit of code ever
written, but it works pretty well.

Any feedback would on the program plus any errors that you notice in any of
the calculations would be appreciated.

I hope to add support for files created in Galactic 2.4 and Trav Tools in a
later version.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 15:33:30 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

What's the advantage of the shuttle? I thought G carriers (like air/rafts) can
go orbital ( and thus re-enter on their own)...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:37:10 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: High Guard Magazines

...
>  HG 1ed.; no magazine installed, no missile bombardment of planets allowed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Got 2nd ed. myself - did 1st edition specify (cost/displacement) what
>it meant by "magazine"?

  "Planetary bombing factor" is the number of tons allocated to magazines for
missile bays; up to 50 tons per bay.

  This doesn't seem particularly useful except for determining a basic structure
for converting HG ships to 5FW (?) bombardment stats.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:23:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>So you could have a garden world that you could starve to death on. And
>establishing "Terran" plants and animals in the face of a healthy
>native ecology won't be much fun.

Welcome to Aurore....

>Another possibility is that there are *natives*, and they don't want a
>bunch of "aliens" running around on their planet.

Or a bunch of malignant aliens - kafers? - ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:43:24 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: World Builder Deluxe

Charles R Hensley <z3crh@TTACS.TTU.EDU> wrote:

>Win95, does this work with NT?  or better yet are you willing to allow
>someone to convert it to Macintosh or Linux?


MacOS - try Metator at http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/RPS.html for
something similar by Rob Prior.

MacOS - The domain level editor Imperial Grand Survey 2 is at
http://www.bits.org.uk/ or the above URL.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:40:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1268

Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com> wrote:

>Here, here.  I'll confess that I refuse to consider the bulk of M:0 canon
>IMTU for that very reason.  My biggest problem with M:0 was that it
>basically started by ignoring previously published material, and never
>looked back.  The products by and large "felt" as if they didn't care for
>the history and tradition of Traveller itself - that this was the way it
>was and if I didn't like it, I didn't have to buy it.

M0 Campaign didn't violate canon as it stood but was massed up by the
(flawed) First Survey data destroying the text which was written around the
original Atlas maps. Many people have objected to the darker feel to the
early Imperium but that isn't a canon issue. I know I find it more
believable than the fluffy shiny Imperial expansionism so have argued for.

Psionic Institutes and Imperial Squadrons have no major canon flaws to my
knowledge, nor does Alien Archive.

Missions of State (aside from the Joe Walsh and MJD scenarios) damaged
canon badly.

The Anililik Run is an old style AD&D module, nothing like the original
CORE proposal. The author didn't understand what a jumpdrive was, and
played it like a bad cartoon SF show crossed with Trek and The Keep on the
Borderlands.

>Well, I didn't.  Not that there weren't problems in the product, but to
>be honest, being in the con business, after the initial release (core
>rules), the enthusiasm of the faithful waned - and potential new players
>were very aware of it.  It didn't attract the TNE crowd, because the
>background wasn't relevant.  It lost the CT crowd, because while the rules
>did their best to "look" like CT, it wasn't.

Agree - we found the main IG books difficult to sell at GenCon UK 98. The
BITS 101's went well though but they are more generically compatible.

>Rob, I seriously hope that Marc and others who write for Traveller, as
>well as Loren and SJG, and any others who work on the next edition of
>Traveller, have those two paragraphs in front of them at all times.
>
>I'll go so far as to say I won't buy anything unless it conforms to that
>"statement of faith".

Marc has repeatedly stated that IG either ignored his comments or gave him
things to check in a day or so.

Andy Lilly would say much the same - even manuscripts edited to match canon
were changed or not checked by IG.

Dave Golden has also commented that IG printed the first usable playtest
version of FFS2.

I can see your viewpoint entirely.

IG's products were overpriced, poorly edited, and really badly typeset.
IIRC someone commented that GDW had forgotten more about layout going from
MT to TNE than IG had ever known. The lack of backpage blurb didn't help.
And IG didn't pay the authors... Opportunities to remedy mistakes weren't
taken eg the corrected world data and locations for First Survey...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:27:36 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

At 03:33 PM 13/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>What's the advantage of the shuttle? I thought G carriers (like air/rafts) can
>go orbital ( and thus re-enter on their own)...

        "Performance is similar to an air/raft"

        "An air/raft can reach orbit in a number of hours equal to the size
UWP of the planet."

        They'd be sitting ducks for ground-based fire....  the shuttle,
OTOH, is pulling 6's all the way in, hiding behind the wall of decoys and
ECM the Jump Capsules are spreading all over the place.  And the mothership
is firing at *everything* that has a fire-control RADAR (hence the number of
small batteries....).

        Regards,
           --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:12:52 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Undead gaming

Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> sez,

>Ah...the film has changed quite a bit in the last year.  Last February,
>I stopped working on "Sunday Morning", the first film I was working on.
>I met with some SFX guys, and I realized the vampire movie I was working
>on would cost too much to make as my first feature.
>
>So, I switched to another one of my screenplays, a film called
>"October".  This is a love story drama.  I'd put it in the same genre as
>Good Will Hunting, Chasing Amy, and Indecent Proposal.

From a future edition of _Ebert's Film Guide_:

"Bearden's _October_ is a fine movie, if you can overlook the tendency of
the characters to inexplicably and repeatedly urge each other to adopt a
mysterious something called 'KBv.2.1'..."

;)

Glenn

   ------------------------Glenn Grant------------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
             Now in trade paperback from Tor Books:
   _Northern Stars: The Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
             Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
    "Sex times Technology equals The Future." -- J.G. Ballard

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:51:55 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: various stuff (certified Ditzie free)

On 09 Dec, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:

> >Thus you won't be getting 40%.

> How about '40% of used value' ?

I can accept that. Now what is the used value?

Since the book has the new price, 10% of book seems easier to look up as a
guide price.

The actual price will (of course) depend on circumstances and negociation.

Unless players start using trading skills and spend a week of so
investigating the market, I'd probably start the bidding at 10% if they
are selling and 100% if they are buying.

Then again, I'd be wanting 200-400% for the new stuff :-)

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:11:17 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: re: Space Missile Design

Dear Folks -

Rupert wrote:
>BTW EAPlaC is only the best choice in FF&S1 if you want the very high
>maximum acceleration. HEPlaR + batteries or fuel cell is better if 6G's is
>enough acceleration (no need for a fusion plant in FF&S1). If you bouild

6G's is NEVER enough! If you are fighting 6G ships, you need much faster
missiles in order to catch up (OK, this assumes a "stern-chaser" scenario).
I tweaked the old "Missiles" special supplement to create standard
(civilian) 10G turret missiles, with military bay missiles coming in at
21G. This means that Mayday combat becomes more like HG, in that the
missiles fire and hit in the same turn - and you don't need those pesky
missile markers cluttering up your battlespace.

BTW, also gives wonderful KKM effects if you are using this (CT) form of
space combat...

I *think* these rules are up on my web site (?? I don't have access at
work, so I'll have to go back and have a look tonight).
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:48:51 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: G:T battlewagons

At 08:18 PM 12/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>> 
><<snip>>
>> the only thing "exempt" from them is
>> the US battleships;  and *nothing* is exempt from *thier* 14" rifles...
>
>16"/50 caliber, if you're referring to the recently re-decommissioned
>IOWAs.
>

        Right...  I have a horrible time remembering that...  the German
Krupp guns were 14", the US Iowa's were 16", and the Yamamoto's were 18".
Thanks.

>>         I agree wholeheartedly.  My players *hate* boarding actions, because
>> you can (and they have) find yourself in the situation of losing the action
>> to the crew of the ship you just disabled...  ;)
>
>Such as the time we managed to cram (for a _very_ short period of time!)
>a company or so of powered armor infantry aboard a derelict
>BROADSWORD-class merc cruiser.  We took a 25,000 dt Zhodani light
>cruiser that way....  

        Beautiful!
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:53:44 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: re: Space Missile Design

At 13:11 14/12/98 +1000, David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson wrote:

>6G's is NEVER enough! If you are fighting 6G ships, you need much faster
>missiles in order to catch up (OK, this assumes a "stern-chaser" scenario).
>I tweaked the old "Missiles" special supplement to create standard
>(civilian) 10G turret missiles, with military bay missiles coming in at
>21G. This means that Mayday combat becomes more like HG, in that the
>missiles fire and hit in the same turn - and you don't need those pesky
>missile markers cluttering up your battlespace.

Well if you're willing to spend the credits I've got a TL13 missile that'll
do 17G136 with a 100kt warhead. FF&S1, of course.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:28:43 -0700
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: FS helicopter

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:45:25 -0600
From: Black ICE 
Subject: Re: Testing strategy of FS' new Combat Helicopter



Have you considered a Janus-style mount?  If you set it to fire
fore-and-aft simultaneously, you might be able to get the recoil to
cancel out.

Oh, yes this sounds like a _wonderful_  way to score points with your allies.

WHAM! WHAM! "Scratch one bogey! The LZ is clear! Hey, Shemp, what happened to the troop carrier? It was right behind us just a second ago..."


This week's nomination for the Traveller Pirate Anthem
"We're the Pirates Who Don't Do Anything! 
We just stay at home and lie around. 
And if you ask us to do anything, we'll just tell you ... We don't do anything!"

"The Pirates Who Don't Do Anything"
Veggietales
ALO (ducking)


- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:48:59 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: CHAT DISCUSSION

I've finally finished version 1.9 of the Traveller Integrated Timeline,
and I've posted the first portion, "Reign of the Ancients, (up to -9236)"
to my website, http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/trav.html.

I'd like to invite interested parties to examine the document, and the
problems with the material, and any material I'm missing.

Tuesday, December 15, 1998, 7 PM CST.

Undernet channel #Traveller.


If this conflicts with any scheduled chat, my apologies.


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:52:09 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Terran Battleships (WAS: Re: G:T battlewagons)

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
> 
> At 08:18 PM 12/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
> >>
> ><<snip>>
> >> the only thing "exempt" from them is
> >> the US battleships;  and *nothing* is exempt from *thier* 14" rifles...
> >
> >16"/50 caliber, if you're referring to the recently re-decommissioned
> >IOWAs.
> >
> 
>         Right...  I have a horrible time remembering that...  the German
> Krupp guns were 14", the US Iowa's were 16", and the Yamamoto's were 18".
> Thanks.
> 
Concerning WW II battleship/battlecruiser main guns (post-Washington
Treaty designs):

France:  DUNKERQUE-class - 13"/50 cal; RICHELIEU-class - 15"/45 cal

Germany:  "Pocket battleships" and SCHARNHORST-class - 11"/55 cal;
BISMARCK-class - 15"47 cal

Great Britain:  NELSON-class - 16"/45 cal; KING GEORGE V-class - 14"/45
cal

Italy:  VITTORIO VENETO-class - 15"/50 cal

Japan:  NAGATO-class - 16"/45 cal; YAMATO-class - 18.1"/45 cal

United States:  NORTH CAROLINA and SOUTH DAKOTA classes - 16"/45 cal;
IOWA-class - 16"/50 cal; ALASKA-class - 12" guns (caliber unknown)

[note:  all gun sizes and calibers come from the SEEKRIEG Ship Data
book, so I take no responsibility for errors therein]

ObTrav:  Do naval architects in Traveller tweak their main armament
designs as much as Terran battleship designers apparently did?  (I know
that I do, using FF&S2.)  If so, do Traveller-era wargamers debate the
relative merits of various battleships and their associated main weapons
as vigorously as 20th-century Terran wargamers and naval enthusiasts do?

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:03:41 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

In a message dated 12/13/98 1:29:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

<<   They'd be sitting ducks for ground-based fire....  the shuttle,
 OTOH, is pulling 6's all the way in, hiding behind the wall of decoys and
 ECM the Jump Capsules are spreading all over the place.  And the mothership
 is firing at *everything* that has a fire-control RADAR (hence the number of
 small batteries....).
  >>

Ah; I see...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:55:09 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Intoxicating stomach dwelling bacteria

I am looking for the person who posted the write up on an intoxicating
stomach-dwelling bacteria some time ago. I had a computer crash shortly
after and only just now realized I lost it and all records of it :^(

So whoever it was out there that did the write-up, could you e-mail me a
copy? I'd appreciate it very much.

Thanks,

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:35:07 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Circle Sea PE PBEM

Could those people who expressed interest in my PE PBEM who haven't 
confirmed wheither or not they will be taking part please do so. I need to know 
so that I can start the game.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:46:04 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Undead gaming

Glenn Grant wrote:

> >From a future edition of _Ebert's Film Guide_:
>
> "Bearden's _October_ is a fine movie, if you can overlook the tendency of
> the characters to inexplicably and repeatedly urge each other to adopt a
> mysterious something called 'KBv.2.1'..."
>

LOL!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:32:24 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Alternate Universe Rational

> From: Paul Schirf <pc@PerkWorks.com>
> Subject: Alternate Universe Rational
> "there are airless, waterless planets with _billions_ of people on the 
> starmaps."
> 
> This has always been a problem for me, and is one of the primary
> reasons that I want to game in an alternate Traveller Universe.
> The material on the net is going a long way to building MTU.

Not for me...  For me, I feel that is where the major ship yard are...

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

We are Microsoft of Borg.  Your distinctive capabilities will be adapted to
service us.  Resistance is futile.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:44:50 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:
 
> Well, first of all, just because it has a type 6 atmosphere and some water
> doesnt mean it's a garden world. 

   IYTU it may not (same happens to hold true IMTU), but canonically it
_does_. That's what I thought we were discussing.

> Secondly, the jump home and back is going to cost about Cr 8000 round trip,
> so with 3 trips a year, thats KCr 24 in transport costs, which is about
> double the average income on a TL11 world. You might as well bring the
> husband and kids, have him work in the Life Support system, and have the
> kids in a creche (or share shifts, or whatever). Cash in your vouchers at
> two-thirds of par, then after 5 years you have KCr 90.

  Don't know about you, but if I was a highly trained space ops specialist
with half a deceade of tech school behind me, I wouldn't work in a place
like this for much under Cr60000 a year. I mean, you do need _skilled_
workers for a first stage vacuum colony. I'll admit the time frame was a
bit  off considering the difficulty of travel. One long vacation a year
(with low-berth travel of course) would probably be more on the mark.

   As for the family, unless you are married to a person who just happens
to work in the same field, you end up with a very unhappy spouse working a
minimum pay job that doesn't match his/her training at all. (Not like
there's too many jobs on a small mining outpost for a high-end
admin/service professionals. There'll be some, but not for nearly all of
the family members with unrelated professions.)

  And what happens when the kids start growing up? You will not find a
good university on a resource world... hell, you'd be lucky to find a
decent high-school. 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:05:10 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > Exporting metals and minerals won't deplete organics. I doubt that
> they'll be exporting anything with a high organic content unless
> they've got *lots* of spare biomass.

  There happens to be oxygen bound into many refined metal compounds, the
same goes for plastics. Not much of course, but if you're exporting
millions of tons a year... Let's face it, you won't support an economy of
several billion people exporting raw materials. 

 
> Excavating the caverns is *cheap*. A single nuclear demolition charge
> will produce a *huge* cavern. The initial spherical cavity winds up
> with a puddle of "melt" in the bottom, and that gets covered over when
> the fractured rock above the cavity collapses. So you wind up with a
> cylindrical cavity with a hemispherical top and a bottom composed of
> loose rock over the melt puddle. 

 Define huge, the temperature at ground zero is certainly enough to
vaporize rock, but since energy density falls off relative to the second
power of distance, the temperature is going to be below melting point of
rock just a few hundred meters away even for a megaton-scale device. After
that you just have a bunch of hyprpressurized gases blowing a huge warren
of massively unstable cracks around the melt cave.

  To support billions of people you'd need cubic klicks of cave, hence
hundreds to thousands of _big_ nukes. At around Mcr10 a pop this is
starting to hurt. You'd have to do this in one stage too, not like you can
expand with nuclear blasts with people living next door. Also, after the
blasts you get to wait a few decades before the radiation falls to livable
levels. (Irradiated bedrock is a bitch to clean up even wit hi-tech
toys...) 

 
> They've actually considered this technology for underground storage
> facilities. 

  I hear the Ruskies tried this. (Not 600km from our border, I might add,
the bastards.) From what I gathered, the results weren't too exhilarating.

 
> I figure that most of these places start out as one of three things:
> 
> 1. Way station. It's the best choice in the system, and having
>    *something* there makes trade easier. A place to refuel, or even to
>    just wait while you send a message on to get the replacement for
>    that part that wasn't supposed to fail... :-)
> 
> 2. Research base. Something was deemed of interest by some scientists,
>    and they got enough funding to establish a small base.
> 
> 3. Mining colony. Some sort of mineral deposits were found that some
>    optimists felt were worth the cost of mining and shipping.

  All of these are feasible, and exist IMTU too, and I'm not saying some
of them might not grow really large, but many hundreds all around seems
stretching it a bit.

> 
> BTW, for simple tunneling, I bet a modified PGMP/FGMP does a great job.
> :-)

 No argument, very good for mining. You'd just need tend of thousands to
excavate a sizeable colony, and the buggers cost upwards of a million in
sufficiently lage sizes.

> And right *now* they have experimental tunneling machines using CPAWS!

  Irradiated rock again! No way around this one, no matter how hi-tech
your PAW is.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1270
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, December 14 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1271



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: GURPS silliness
Re: GT Aliens, v.2
OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?
Re: Colonising hellholes
RE: World Builder Deluxe
Re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...
Re: High Guard optional rules: supply
Re: G:T meson guns
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
RE: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?
Re: High Guard optional rules: supply
Re: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: High Guard optional rules
Re: T-d V1998 #1268 (maintence)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:54:36 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> >>
> >   ...while the nice, balmy garden world next door has a couple of
> > dozen inhabitants.
> 
> It may be owned by *very* unfriendly people. Or it may be easy to live
> on, but have no resources worth the trouble. 

  Well, from where I sit being easy to live on _is_ a resource worth the
trouble. And as for the unfriendly people, if there are a couple of
hundred of them (you can find these on the map), and a megacorp wants the
garden world (maybe to sypply several nearby mining colonies), the odds
are that scattering of unfriendly natives will simply disappear.
 
> But compare passage costs. High or middle passage costs a *lot* more
> than airfare. And there's still the problem of the "nice" world
> possibly being off limits.

  Why not go for low-passage, at TL-12+ this is utterly safe and much
cheaper. (Admittedly more than one trip a year would probably still be
unfeasible.) A highly trained professional has to make at least kCr50-80 a
year (as straight salary or profit%) to even consider working in a place
like this. With dough like this 10000 a year isn't going to hurt _too_
much. 
  And if you'r megacorporate employer says the world next door is not
off limits, the odds are it won't be, I mean let's face it these guys
practically _own_ the Imperium.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:03:33 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Eppu Tuominen wrote:

<snip>

> > And right *now* they have experimental tunneling machines using CPAWS!
> 
>   Irradiated rock again! No way around this one, no matter how hi-tech
> your PAW is.

Could you not just walk through thr place with nuclear dampers ?

Ewan

	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:09:57 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

 
> Yeah, for one thing, there's a 50% chance that the amino acids have the
> wrong handedness. And the same goes for sugars. As I recall Earth has
> right-handed amino acids and left-handed sugars, but I may have that
> backwards. 
> 
> At a minimum wrong-handed material has *no* food value. At worst, it's
> actively detrimental. 
> 
> So you could have a garden world that you could starve to death on. And
> establishing "Terran" plants and animals in the face of a healthy
> native ecology won't be much fun.
>
  Actually, on a planet with wrong handed amino-acids it's a cakewalk
compared to a world with compatible biosphere. Incompatible chemistry
means local diseases won't affect the colonists and their plants and
animals at all. Once you have clared a patch of soil, you just put in
Terran microbes and whatnot, and the crop plants can grow with no risk of
infection. (Somebody suggested doing this for dead vacuum dust, I'd say
sterilized soil is easier.) Pests and predators stupid enough to eat
anything Terran will either get smart or starve to dearth pretty quick.



 
> Another possibility is that there are *natives*, and they don't want a
> bunch of "aliens" running around on their planet.

  See my earlier post. (Duh... Frank, wasn't there like some dumb natives,
who didn't want us colonists here?  What natives, do you like see anybody
around? *evil grin*)

 > The wrong-handedness bit is the most *likely* form of
> bio-incompatability, but others are possible, such as lacking vital
> amino acids, having large amounts of amino acids not found in terran
> life, or having some form of carbohydrate *other* than sugar & starch
> be how the plant life stores energy.

  All of these have the same solution, wipe out the local ecosphere as you
expand your own. Incopatability works both ways. The real problem here
might be the green groups and other "regressionist weenies" (a megacorp
view, not mine) whining about humans meddling with alien biospheres.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:15:45 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, SD Mooney wrote:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> 
> >So you could have a garden world that you could starve to death on. And
> >establishing "Terran" plants and animals in the face of a healthy
> >native ecology won't be much fun.
> 
> Welcome to Aurore....

  Well, since you brought it up, remember Beta Canum. It has an
incopatible biosphere too, and dispite this manages to be the bread basket
of the entire French arm, not to mention probably the richest and most
flurishing colony in known space.
 (My apologies for drifting into 2300AD mode. I realise this must be
distressing  to hardline Travellerists.)

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:27:40 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Ewan Quibell wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Eppu Tuominen wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > > And right *now* they have experimental tunneling machines using CPAWS!
> > 
> >   Irradiated rock again! No way around this one, no matter how hi-tech
> > your PAW is.
> 
> Could you not just walk through thr place with nuclear dampers ?  

  Yes you could, and you'd be safe for the moment, but what about the
colonists, who can't afford their own nuke damper (or are too scrawny to
lug around several tons of metal).
  One thing nobody will ever convince me to buy is, that the damper effect
continues after the field disappears. Goes against every bit of knowledge
I have of nuclear physics. I mean nuclear decay of unstable elements is a
_fundamental_ piece of physics.
 Even if the damper causes every unstable nucleus to decay instantaneously
(pretty far fetched) the resulting burst of radiation would irradiate
furhter nuclei, and you'd be back to square one. (Sorry for the rant
folks.)
  BTW even a nuke damper won't protect you from radioactive dust and such,
but that is much easier to clean up anyway (especially at high TL:s).

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:16:49 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

At 01:09 PM 14/12/98 +0200, you wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> 
>> Yeah, for one thing, there's a 50% chance that the amino acids have the
>> wrong handedness. And the same goes for sugars. As I recall Earth has
>> right-handed amino acids and left-handed sugars, but I may have that
>> backwards. 
>> 
>> At a minimum wrong-handed material has *no* food value. At worst, it's
>> actively detrimental. 
>> 
>> So you could have a garden world that you could starve to death on. And
>> establishing "Terran" plants and animals in the face of a healthy
>> native ecology won't be much fun.
>>
>  Actually, on a planet with wrong handed amino-acids it's a cakewalk
>compared to a world with compatible biosphere. Incompatible chemistry
>means local diseases won't affect the colonists and their plants and
>animals at all. Once you have clared a patch of soil, you just put in
>Terran microbes and whatnot, and the crop plants can grow with no risk of
>infection. (Somebody suggested doing this for dead vacuum dust, I'd say
>sterilized soil is easier.) Pests and predators stupid enough to eat
>anything Terran will either get smart or starve to dearth pretty quick.
>

        Hi, Eppu!
        If our colonists are that concerned about it, put a dome over the
field and go hydroponics....  it means that the Terran microbes and whatnot
would be less likely do something unpleasant with the local enviroment, and
the pest/predators issue goes away.  In fact, I think initial surface
colonies are going to be less like a 1800's Wild-west strip-town than they
will be like an 1100's English Baronial castle;  everything important to
survival inside a barrier wall/ dome of some kind until the colonists get a
better idea of how much the Scout survey missed.

> 
>> Another possibility is that there are *natives*, and they don't want a
>> bunch of "aliens" running around on their planet.
>
>  See my earlier post. (Duh... Frank, wasn't there like some dumb natives,
>who didn't want us colonists here?  What natives, do you like see anybody
>around? *evil grin*)
>

        Here I disagree with you....  I think that the Scout Service would
have noted the existance of a sentient culture and it is entirely possible
that they or the Navy might be "monitoring" activities in the system to
avoid repeated genocides.  If you presume that the Imperium is of a "good"
bent at all, allowing the Corporations to commit repeated genocides of "dumb
natives" is simply asking for them to consider going after bigger fish (Hey,
Boss...  You know that asteroid colony in the next system where they just
discovered all that  high grade uranium?  I heard they had an unfortuate
outbreak of Ebola-II;  wiped the whole colony out.  We might be able to
"salvage" something if we go check it out).

        Regards,
           --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:52:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: GURPS silliness

In mail you write:

> I've just been thinking about the Traveller/GURPS conversion system.  You
> know, it works both ways.
>
> Just think:  Traveller Lensman

Hmmm. Let's see. The Imperium is autocratic, and anti-psionic....

!!!!!!!

The Imperium is Boskone!

:-)

Wouldn't *that* be fun to spring on your players. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:08:39 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: GT Aliens, v.2

>  From what Marc has repeatedly posted, that is not quite true. You
> cannot use verbatim from any DGP materials. However, the license
> under which DGP produced Traveller materials *explicitly* allowed GDW
> (and now Marc) to reuse any of the ideas they choose. The concepts,
> ideas and backgrounds in the DGP materials can be used; you just
> can't lift the text verbatim and reprint it.
> - -- Dave Golden

What happens then to all the Trokh words in DGP S&A? What happens to 
all the clan names, of those in the Tlaukhu? Changing names would be 
a major change in canon, right? Does DGP own thos clan names that did 
not appear in other sources?

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:15:12 EDT
From: "Jeff Zeitlin" <jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com>
Subject: OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?

Web Space! I Need More Web Space!  Or at least I _will_, if everything I want
to implement in Freelance Traveller does in fact come to pass...

I'm not asking for donations from anyone on the list, as Freelance Traveller
now has some pretty significant technical requirements, which cause it to be a
hardship to rebuild to avoid (most significantly, many of the future ideas are
predicated on the existence of the Microsoft FrontPage Server extensions).  I'm
looking at the "free" services, some of which _do_ offer what I need.

I have a few possibilities.  One requires that I maintain a (paid third-party)
banner ad at the top and bottom of every page.  One adds a "watermark" to my
page (and requires that I maintain their banner).  One creates a "pop-up"
window every time a member page on their server is accessed, with advertising
that they choose.  One creates a pop-up only on first entry to a particular
member web site, again with advertising that they choose.  None of these are as
attractive as my current space provider, but the arrangement with my current
space provider is best described as "charity", and must be considered subject
to revocation at any time.  Therefore, I'm exploring my alternatives.  I'm not
going to move until and unless it becomes necessary, but I want to be prepared
to move on short notice.

Which of the alternatives is least objectionable to the audience?
- -- 
Jeff Zeitlin
Editor, Freelance Traveller
freetrav@hotmail.com, jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:04:24 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
> 
>   Why not go for low-passage, at TL-12+ this is utterly safe and much
> cheaper. (Admittedly more than one trip a year would probably still be
> unfeasible.) A highly trained professional has to make at least kCr50-80
a
> year (as straight salary or profit%) to even consider working in a place
> like this. With dough like this 10000 a year isn't going to hurt _too_
> much. 

I wouldn't be surprised if fares wouldn't be part of the contract, kind of
like mercenary tickets.  In fact, exactly like mercenary tickets - it's
just different kinds of off-world labour.

There are fly-in fly-out mines around the place on Earth, where the
companies stump up the bucks for lots of airfares (one every few weeks or
so).  A single, more expensive round trip isn't unthinkable.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:56:29 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: World Builder Deluxe

Stuart Ferris gave us:
> 
> Just a quick note to let you all know that I have revised my 
> World Builder
> program to a new improved Deluxe version.
> 
> The program generates World Data based on the Digest Group 
> Publications
> Megatraveller World Builder's Handbook and also integrates Encounter
> Tablesas per T4 rulebook, Psionic Institutes generation as 
> per T4 Psionic
> Institutes and World Economy Generation as per T4 Pocket Empires.
> 
> The program can be downloaded by selecting the following:-
> 
> World Builder Deluxe
> 
> Stuart Ferris
> stuart.ferris@virgin.net
> http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

Excellent job, Stuart! *Excellent* job! Your output files link
*beautifully* with Jim V.'s Galactic 2.4. Between the two
of you, you've allowed me to generate a full galaxy of
detailed info in one hour.

Now all I need is a laptop to put it all on and my campaign
will *ROCK*!!!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:06:38 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:38:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Incoming! ...Or, yet another Traveller player...
d uses metric miles to measuer planetary diamiters
Make that:
3800 grams
54 cm.
After all, Traveller is metric. :-)
*************
and uses metric miles to measure planetary diamiters?

and has a space combat scale fo 10,000 miles to the inch? (metric inches?)

:)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:07:19 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules: supply

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:38:34 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules: supply
At 01:49 PM 11/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Supp 9 doesn't have any dedicated troop carriers does it?  Are there
>ships designed for that purpose out there?  I mean the Multi-kton
>Assault ship....
>
Try GT: Star Mercs....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:10:46 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: G:T meson guns

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:30:39
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: G:T meson guns
>From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
>Subject: Converting High Guard stats
>
>TL12 Meson Spinal mount (T equivalent in HIGH GUARD):
>
>1/2 damage range: 10 hexes
>Max Range       : 29 hexes
>Damage          : 5d6x25,800 (average damage is 451,500
>RoF per minute  : 4
>RoF bonus       : +6
Nope. A G:T Spinal Meson Gun takes up a mere 1500 or so dtons *including*
power plant.
It's more like a J-gun than a T-gun.
******************
if you look a little close at the post, you will discover it was a response
to Hal's posting of his HG meson gun conversions.  the particular example
posted wa modled after the type T.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:12:49 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:05:10 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem
(Irradiated bedrock is a bitch to clean up even wit hi-tech toys...)
***********
Nah, in trav you can just wave a damper over it....


> And right *now* they have experimental tunneling machines using CPAWS!
  Irradiated rock again! No way around this one, no matter how hi-tech
your PAW is.
********
Dampers again.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:46:02 -0500
From: Stan Rohrer <SRohrer@witsys.com>
Subject: RE: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?

What is your website's url?


		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Jeff Zeitlin
[mailto:jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com]
		Sent:	Monday, December 14, 1998 8:15 AM
		To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
		Subject:	OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More
Annoying?

		Web Space! I Need More Web Space!  Or at least I _will_,
if everything I want to implement in Freelance Traveller does in fact
come to pass...

		I'm not asking for donations from anyone on the list, as
Freelance Traveller now has some pretty significant technical
requirements, which cause it to be a hardship to rebuild to avoid (most
significantly, many of the future ideas are predicated on the existence
of the Microsoft FrontPage Server extensions).  I'm looking at the
"free" services, some of which _do_ offer what I need.

		I have a few possibilities.  One requires that I
maintain a (paid third-party) banner ad at the top and bottom of every
page.  One adds a "watermark" to my page (and requires that I maintain
their banner).  One creates a "pop-up" window every time a member page
on their server is accessed, with advertising that they choose.  One
creates a pop-up only on first entry to a particular member web site,
again with advertising that they choose.  None of these are as
attractive as my current space provider, but the arrangement with my
current space provider is best described as "charity", and must be
considered subject to revocation at any time.  Therefore, I'm exploring
my alternatives.  I'm not going to move until and unless it becomes
necessary, but I want to be prepared to move on short notice.

		Which of the alternatives is least objectionable to the
audience?
		-- 
		Jeff Zeitlin
		Editor, Freelance Traveller
		freetrav@hotmail.com, jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:24:41 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules: supply

Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com wrote:
> 
> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:38:34 -0400
> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
> Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules: supply
> At 01:49 PM 11/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >Supp 9 doesn't have any dedicated troop carriers does it?  Are there
> >ships designed for that purpose out there?  I mean the Multi-kton
> >Assault ship....
> >
> Try GT: Star Mercs....

No.  I don't mean in GT, I mean in *T or T*.

But thanks anyway.

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:30:01 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?

Of all of the options you offer, I find the banner ad the least annoying.
Pop-up windows are most annoying, while the watermark is a close second.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:02:31 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com wrote:

> (Irradiated bedrock is a bitch to clean up even wit hi-tech
> toys...)
> ***********
> Nah, in trav you can just wave a damper over it....
> 
> 
> > And right *now* they have experimental tunneling machines using CPAWS!
>   Irradiated rock again! No way around this one, no matter how hi-tech
> your PAW is.
> ********
> Dampers again.

  Still have a bit of a hard time understanding how this is supposed to
help you. (No, I'm not going to do the same rant again.) Traveller is
quite vague on what nuke dampers actually do, but the damper boxes used
for transporting nuclear explosives etc. strongly point to a transient
effect. Othervise the warhead would be a useless lump (of what?) coming
out of the box. Also the FF&S1 technobabble on dampers seems to imply an
effect that only continues as long as the field is applied, though this is
far from clear.
    
 It is stated that you can speed up the decay of unstable nuclei, but
this is no miracle cure either. The decay causes more particle and EM
radiation, which in turn created more irradiated materials. Of course, not
all released particles will react so a damper used in this fashion will
cause a steady decline in the rad levels. This would still take months of
bombardment though, which I would hardly call waving.
   BTW I did some quick math, and a conservative estimate would be around
10000 megaton-scale nukes to create enough space fo 5 billion inhabitants,
not cheap. Also, youd need at least one damper per blast site plus power
for them. (Add another 40-50 billion to the bill.) Of course a project
like this would take several years, so add hazard pay and life support for
several hundred or more highly skilled workers (probably not much more
than a few billion credits though).  

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:28:44 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>  
>         Hi, Eppu!
>         If our colonists are that concerned about it, put a dome over the
> field and go hydroponics....  it means that the Terran microbes and whatnot
> would be less likely do something unpleasant with the local enviroment, and
> the pest/predators issue goes away.  In fact, I think initial surface
> colonies are going to be less like a 1800's Wild-west strip-town than they
> will be like an 1100's English Baronial castle;  everything important to
> survival inside a barrier wall/ dome of some kind until the colonists get a
> better idea of how much the Scout survey missed.
>
  I agree totally. With a reasonably hospitable atmosphere you can build
square km:s of light plastic dome for pocket ghange. These are also good
for starting the soil claiming projects and later, if the colony does
well and there are no nasty surprises, the domes can come off, and you can
use the areas underneath them for the basis of your further terraforming.

 > > 
> >> Another possibility is that there are *natives*, and they don't want a
> >> bunch of "aliens" running around on their planet.
> >
> >  See my earlier post. (Duh... Frank, wasn't there like some dumb natives,
> >who didn't want us colonists here?  What natives, do you like see anybody
> >around? *evil grin*)
> >
> 
>         Here I disagree with you....  I think that the Scout Service would
> have noted the existance of a sentient culture and it is entirely possible
> that they or the Navy might be "monitoring" activities in the system to
> avoid repeated genocides.

  Actually I was thinking a pre-existing _human_ colonization of
unfriendly bent. An indigenous intellect might be trickier to remove, but
still quite doable if the incentive is good enough. (Granted, no sane
megacorp would pull this one simply for farmland.)

>  If you presume that the Imperium is of a "good"
> bent at all, 

  I dont. This is a matter of personal tastes of course, but I just can't
think of a machinery as massive as the imperium as very good natured.
Practically the only thig in T4 I agreed with was the delicious
flip-side of the coin views in M0 book. I figure the Imperium would never
have gotten as far as it did without a few atrocities and outright
genocides of its own.

>allowing the Corporations to commit repeated genocides of "dumb
> natives" is simply asking for them to consider going after bigger fish (Hey,
> Boss...  You know that asteroid colony in the next system where they just
> discovered all that  high grade uranium?  I heard they had an unfortuate
> outbreak of Ebola-II;  wiped the whole colony out.  We might be able to
> "salvage" something if we go check it out).
> 

  I find this a perfectly plausible scenario, that probably happens every
now and then in the big, brutal, cut-throat world of Imperial business.
The megacorps are pretty much what keeps the realm running, so what's a
little genocide between business pals, eh? From the viewpoint of Imperial
bureaucracy a single individual (or a few thousand of them for that
matter) is going to be utterly irrelevant. 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:56:15 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules

Walter G. Smith wrote:

>>The figures seems a touch on the low side, if anything.

>Perhaps...but remember the drives supposedly go a year between
>(intensive) maintenance, and that fuel is already taken care of in
>the design. Also, most weapons have no ammunition requirements.
>This should reduce the cargo needs somewhat from what a 20th c.
>wet navy ship needs for combat.

Point taken. I would suggest that, while the `intensive' maintenance
schedule might be once a year, there's going to be a lot of preventative
maintenance happening. I'd also submit that, while higher tech. gear
tends to have higher availability, better maintainability and better
reliability than older gear, this is to an extent achieved through large
stores holdings of line-replaceable units.

I'm also thinking food. Is this accounted for somewhere, or are we
assuming hokey ST replicators?

Missile armed ships are going to have *big* replenishment requirements,
too - esp. if they are involved in intensive combat or planetary
bombardments.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:41:21 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Re: T-d V1998 #1268 (maintence)

>Da
>
>M1A1s are very much bleeding edge technology. This may or may not apply
>with Traveller military starships. If it does apply, then we need to think
>about how it affects civilian starships.
>
>Ian Whitchurch

During my tours in the Military I too saw New vehicles break down often and
older vehicles (One in particular that was actually expected to fail while
on manuvers) not break down, I beleave it would rely on the following factors

1. if regular maint is being preformed.
2. if additional inspections are being performed above and beyond normal
maint. 
	In the above example the older M119A1 APC (I hope I got those numbers
correct) had a history of breaking down  within 6-8 hours of moving to 'the
field'. A new driver was assigned and he babied the APC the entire field
problem (I.E. he inspected the vehicle each time he stopped and actually
had to replace One track extender bar) The Company Commander was so
overjoyed that this APC did not have to be towed back in for once, the
solder was given a three day pass.)
3. Random Failures. 
	It seems in real world military (what a shock) 99.9999999999999% of all
parts are made by the lowest bidder and for some odd reason they are also
made of inferior material and are prone to sudden and critical failures.
This practice of buying from the lowest bidder will always continue. I have
even read about a case (which the U.S. Military lost) inwhich the Army
purchased 20 computers and discovered they would not function, the
contracters response was. "Operational? No where in the contract did it say
the computers had to work."

	What this would mean in game terms is that the GM must roll for equipment
problems and failure EACH and EVERY day of continuous operation, Starting
with the moment the equipment was turned on. The first roll would indicate
if this was a operational critical piece of equipment (will the device work
or not) the second roll would indicate if the failure was a critical or
normal failure.
Modified by the following:
	1. If regular maint was performed. (positive mod if yes, cumulative neg
mods if no.)
	2. If the part was shoddy in construction (neg mod if yes.)

	Unfortunalty IRL the sad truth is every single mechanical part is waiting
to break down, I have seen thermostats die every other month, starters,
alternators, water pumps, fuel pumps, transmissions etc etc I have had cars
that every other week I was replacing parts and then again I have had cars
that ran so smoothly I didn't have to add or change the oil for 6 months
and I was inspecting the oil weekly.
	If you have had any experince with the military and vehicles you would
know they spend regularly scheduled time in  motor pools doing PREVENTIVE
MAINTENCE in addition to upgrades and repairs. I have seen motor pool
reports that have an average of 20-25% of the battalions vehicles in a non
operational status, the goal would be to have less then 10% on the list and
often the Chief Warrent Officer would find some lame excuse to remove a
vehicle (The parts on it's way right now, so we can take #C22 off the
list.) Then again I have seen Warrents make sure they have EVERY single
broke vehicle on that list to insure they get the proper maint funding
regardless of how it makes their job performance look.

	How would it affect Civilian ships? the same or even worse as the
civilians do not have the same resourse's to draw on that a military has.
(it would be safe to say that each vehicle has to have at leaset 10 maint
books, one for the motive, one for the electronics, commo, weapons systems,
etc, etc)  If a group does not have a dedicated mechanic that spends almost
the entire game working on EVERY part of the engine, life support, etc 
	Then again the GM could exclude real life and just make an easy maint roll
once a month. Then again this is a fantasy game. ;}

	Yes I meandered fecklessly, but I been there and done that in regards to
military maintence. It's a whole nother bear if you have PC's running
around with civilian versions of military hardware. Most people would not
spend every moment working on their transports unless it was making funny
noises.
  
	In an article in Soldier of Fortune mag, there was a discussion about a
group of civilians that had faked their way into control of a retired
warship (mueseum piece), Some of the incidents were humorous, (they almost
sank the ship at dock) but it eventually cost the sponsers ALL of their
money and the warship had to be sold for scrap. The civilains bailed and
are still being looked for.

Heres a thought: what about a maint shop at each port and as a requirement
each time a civilian ship puts in at a planet it must have a certified
inspection? (This could be a free inspection or 1/2 cost, or full cost, but
required.) The military does this IRL so what if the imperial Goverment
knowing that civilians lack the expertise or resourses makes this a
requirement. It's done now for Emissions and in some states a vehicle safty
inspection is required annually. It would make for extended visits and
adventure hooks.




Latin
Radix Lecti

English
Couch Potato

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1271
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, December 14 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1272



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Searching for Accrete software
Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Contragrav Tables for FFS1
re: colonizing hellholes
Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
re: High Guard optional rules: supply
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re:  Stuart Ferris' World Builder Deluxe
re: Nuclear Dampeners
re: Transporting Fuel Insystem
re: colonizing hellholes
Re: Nuclear Dampeners
Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
re: Transporting Fuel Insystem
World Builder Deluxe
re: colonizing hellholes
Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
re: Nuclear Dampeners
re: Nuclear Dampeners
Re: High Guard optional rules
re: OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:12:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:27:40 +0200 (EET)
> From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
> 
> > Could you not just walk through thr place with nuclear dampers ?  
> 
>   Yes you could, and you'd be safe for the moment, but what about the
> colonists, who can't afford their own nuke damper (or are too scrawny to
> lug around several tons of metal).
>   One thing nobody will ever convince me to buy is, that the damper effect
> continues after the field disappears. Goes against every bit of knowledge
> I have of nuclear physics. I mean nuclear decay of unstable elements is a
> _fundamental_ piece of physics.
>  Even if the damper causes every unstable nucleus to decay instantaneously
> (pretty far fetched) the resulting burst of radiation would irradiate
> furhter nuclei, and you'd be back to square one. (Sorry for the rant
> folks.)

No, the idea (as I see it) is that that the decays occur at such low
energies that the decay products (including free neutrons, alphas, and the
like) are so wimpy that they can't effectively irradiate surrounding
material.  There's plenty of radiation produced when you reduce nuclear
binding energies enough to spontaneously fission every unstable nucleus in
the area, but it's radiation at much lower energies-per-particle than we
see in natural fission.

- -- 
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "The hills were burning, and the wind was raging; and the
       clock struck midnight in the Garden of Allah."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:40:07 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Searching for Accrete software

Hi all!

I'm looking for the Accrete program, you input the mainworld data, and 
stellar data, and it spits out an entire system for you.  Anyone got it?

Thanks

JimC

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:29:41 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Still have a bit of a hard time understanding how this is supposed to
help you. (No, I'm not going to do the same rant again.) Traveller is
quite vague on what nuke dampers actually do, but the damper boxes used
for transporting nuclear explosives etc. strongly point to a transient
effect. Othervise the warhead would be a useless lump (of what?) coming
out of the box. Also the FF&S1 technobabble on dampers seems to imply an
effect that only continues as long as the field is applied, though this is
far from clear.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
0A nuke damper has a field with two nodes, one that makes nuclear
material more stable, and one that makes it less stable. You focus
the appropriate node on your target depending on the effect you desire.
Therefore you can stabilize a case of californium rounds by building
nuke dampeners into it that focus the stabilizing node into the case.

The destabilizing node is used to make nuclear materials inert,
not just while the node is focused on it, but for good - it changes
the rate neutrons are shed by the radioactive matter. It seems that
you can affect how this energy is shed as well - Nuke Dampers
don't seem intended to make a nuke missile explode early (an
effect of instantly turning up the reaction rate), they must cause a
rapid but controlled release of energy.

In the case of civilian decontamination operations, a nuclear dampener
would make an area emit energy for a brief period of time - perhaps
as neutron radiation, perhaps as X-rays, who knows what. Afterwards,
the area is non-radioactive - perhaps even less radioactive than normal
background levels.

I'm still wondering what would happen if you focused a starship-grade
nuclear dampener into the middle of the enemy bridge. It's accurate
enough to sweep a 12G missile, you'd think you could hit a person with it.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:42:46 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Contragrav Tables for FFS1

Ummmm, someone on the list sent me the details on contragrav in FFS1, 
but in a frenzy of mail cleaning, I, ummm, seem to have, ummm, well, you 
see.......

Ahhh heck, I DELETED IT ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd appreciate it if they would re send that to me.

Thanks lots in advance.

JimC

- ----Original Message Follows----
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Contragrav Tables for FFS1
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:12:26 PST
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

Hi all.  I recently got hold of a copy of FFS1, and have noticed that 
the tables for contragrav design are missing.  Does anyone have or know 
of any errata that might include this?

JimC

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:39:09 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: colonizing hellholes

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  I find this a perfectly plausible scenario, that probably happens every
now and then in the big, brutal, cut-throat world of Imperial business.
The megacorps are pretty much what keeps the realm running, so what's a
little genocide between business pals, eh? From the viewpoint of Imperial
bureaucracy a single individual (or a few thousand of them for that
matter) is going to be utterly irrelevant. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Cut to holovid of a Megacorp's starmerc ships drifting in space, still
glowing from nuke hits...an image of Trepida grav tanks rolling
through the burning wreckage of the Megacorp's sector HQ
building, Imperial sunburst logos visible on their flanks.

Cut to image of an Imperial commander, reading a writ from the
Emperor:

"His Imperial Majesty is displeased by your company's actions
in the Sangiera system.  Wiping out planetary populations is our job,
*not* yours."

The Impies will let a corp get away with a lot - after all, in some ways
the Megacorps _are_ the Empire - but there will be a line (guarded
by battle cruisers) that the corps cross at their peril. 

Besides, there are much more profitable ways to take over a world
than exterminating the population. Inhabited worlds can be much
more valuable than deserted ones - dead men buy no consumer
products!  <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:54:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

Walter Smith writes:
> A nuke damper has a field with two nodes, one that makes nuclear
> material more stable, and one that makes it less stable. You focus
> the appropriate node on your target depending on the effect you desire.
> Therefore you can stabilize a case of californium rounds by building
> nuke dampeners into it that focus the stabilizing node into the case.
> 
> The destabilizing node is used to make nuclear materials inert,
> not just while the node is focused on it, but for good - it changes
> the rate neutrons are shed by the radioactive matter. It seems that

Actually, I think it just causes the radioactive matter to decay into stable
forms.

> you can affect how this energy is shed as well - Nuke Dampers
> don't seem intended to make a nuke missile explode early (an
> effect of instantly turning up the reaction rate), they must cause a
> rapid but controlled release of energy.

Actually, increasing the reaction rate probably wouldn't cause a nuclear weapon
to explode early, though it might cause it to melt.  Nuclear weapon critical
mass is controlled by neutron emission per fission and neutron capture
cross-section, not rate of decay.

Of course, the effect of nuclear dampers as described (increases/decreases the
strong nuclear force) almost certainly wouldn't have the described effects. 
The most probable effect of increasing the strength of the strong nuclear force
would be to set off a huge blast of radiation as all the nuclei in the area
realigned themselves at a lower energy level, and reducing the strong nuclear
force would require enough energy to make up for the mass difference.  The
effect given for a nuclear damper suggests some sort of field which modifies
quantum tunneling, or possibly adjusts the range of the strong nuclear force in
some inobvious manner.
> 
> In the case of civilian decontamination operations, a nuclear dampener
> would make an area emit energy for a brief period of time - perhaps
> as neutron radiation, perhaps as X-rays, who knows what. Afterwards,
> the area is non-radioactive - perhaps even less radioactive than normal
> background levels.

Probably standard emissions, which mostly means alpha, beta, gamma.
> 
> I'm still wondering what would happen if you focused a starship-grade
> nuclear dampener into the middle of the enemy bridge. It's accurate
> enough to sweep a 12G missile, you'd think you could hit a person with it.

Probably nothing, unless the person was currently significantly contaminated
with radioactive materials.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:07:25 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: High Guard optional rules: supply

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Point taken. I would suggest that, while the `intensive' maintenance
schedule might be once a year, there's going to be a lot of preventative
maintenance happening. I'd also submit that, while higher tech. gear
tends to have higher availability, better maintainability and better
reliability than older gear, this is to an extent achieved through large
stores holdings of line-replaceable units.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Recall how much of the ship is solid metal, or empty space. On a
jump-5, armor-4 vessel, 60% of the ship is either the innards of a
fuel tank or crystal-iron hull plates. 

The maneuver drives on an Azhanti High Lightning are described as
"maintenance free" - probably a description from a salesman's
product literature, rather than the engineering crew's maintenance
schedule. Still, it may be that Stellar tech level drives have big parts that
don't wear out much.

Note that most battle damage can have the effects reversed by
damage control, but still needs to be repaired in a shipyard. This
indicates that whatever they're making repairs with is something
less than complete replacement units.

These make me think that starships can make do with a limited
amount of storage space, but zero cargo space is just taking it too
far.

Here's a thought. What if the hull displacement percentages for
bridge, drives, weapons, etc. include within themselves space for
spare parts and consumable stores? If that were the case, my
whole idea for cargo requirements on warships goes out the airlock.

Matt again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm also thinking food. Is this accounted for somewhere, or are we
assuming hokey ST replicators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Part would be accounted for in the 2tns/person of living space. In my
HG deck plans I consider some of the space for drives, bridge, etc.
to be climate-controlled work areas, so that 2tn/person is all for the
person to eat, sleep, bathe and play in. I would say that some of the
one percent tonnage per month would be supplements to the closed
circuit life support system, but am open to the idea of requiring more
space.

Matt again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Missile armed ships are going to have *big* replenishment requirements,
too - esp. if they are involved in intensive combat or planetary
bombardments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was reading a respondent's mention of 1st edition HG magazines - 
how they could be up to 50tns per missile bay for planetary
bombardment purposes. This sounds useful, though I have been
wondering how much of the bay itself is missile launcher and how
much is ready stores. A 100tn missile bay isn't a bank of 50 2tn
vertical launch racks, like some ballistic missile submarine - it's
more like a torpedo bay IMO. Still, you could be very correct to
push a missile-armed ship's cargo requirments upwards.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:32:15 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Craig Berry wrote:

> No, the idea (as I see it) is that that the decays occur at such low
> energies that the decay products (including free neutrons, alphas, and the
> like) are so wimpy that they can't effectively irradiate surrounding
> material.  There's plenty of radiation produced when you reduce nuclear
> binding energies enough to spontaneously fission every unstable nucleus in
> the area, but it's radiation at much lower energies-per-particle than we
> see in natural fission.
> 
  Got any solid physics to back that? Othervise I think Ill go with my
own idea. The way I see it, strong nuclear force does not vary in nature,  
so predicting the effects of the said happening would be difficult to
say the least. Or did I sleep through yet another nuclear physics lecture?
(Has been known to happen.)

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:34:12 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re:  Stuart Ferris' World Builder Deluxe

Stuart:

Wow!  Great job.  Between your program and Jim  V's
Galactic 2,  I'm in Seventh Heaven.

Could I suggest an entry for Imperial Squadrons data?
That would make my day complete and I might attain
Nirvana.

I would make it default to basic DF-AF-BF, jump, and
non-streamlined.  Referee's could then modify as needed.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:23:03 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Nuclear Dampeners

Anthony Jackson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> I'm still wondering what would happen if you focused a starship-grade
> nuclear dampener into the middle of the enemy bridge. It's accurate
> enough to sweep a 12G missile, you'd think you could hit a person with it.

Probably nothing, unless the person was currently significantly contaminated with radioactive materials.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm thinking of the energy required to render a pile of uranium inert,
and considering if this amount of energy focused on a person would
do any harm. What happens to you if someone fiddles with the
nuclear properties of all your atoms at once? Might be pretty bizarre.

Some defensive weapons have offensive capabilties as well. Consider
the Striker rules for using a starship sandcaster against people - like it
was a honking big scattergun. Owch!!

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:32:04 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Transporting Fuel Insystem

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 Got any solid physics to back that? Othervise I think Ill go with my
own idea. The way I see it, strong nuclear force does not vary in nature,  
so predicting the effects of the said happening would be difficult to
say the least. Or did I sleep through yet another nuclear physics lecture?
(Has been known to happen.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Seems to me the whole idea behind the nuclear dampener is that it
is a device special made to fool with the strong and weak nuclear
forces - class it with jump drives, meson screens, contragrav and
all those other things we build with the Trav design sequences but
don't quite understand in the realworld (tm) yet.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:46:37 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: re: colonizing hellholes

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

 
> Cut to holovid of a Megacorp's starmerc ships drifting in space, still
> glowing from nuke hits...an image of Trepida grav tanks rolling
> through the burning wreckage of the Megacorp's sector HQ
> building, Imperial sunburst logos visible on their flanks.
> 
> Cut to image of an Imperial commander, reading a writ from the
> Emperor:
> 
> "His Imperial Majesty is displeased by your company's actions
> in the Sangiera system.  Wiping out planetary populations is our job,
> *not* yours."

  Guess the megacorp CEO forgot to pay the Imperial family's dividends
this year. Big mistake!

> The Impies will let a corp get away with a lot - after all, in some ways
> the Megacorps _are_ the Empire - but there will be a line (guarded
> by battle cruisers) that the corps cross at their peril. 
 
  Certainly, I just think mopping up a few hundred isolationist natives in
the name of progress is way below it. And if there are too many pesky
natives, the LIC:s can just call in the navy to exterminate them - also in
the name of progress of course.

> Besides, there are much more profitable ways to take over a world
> than exterminating the population. Inhabited worlds can be much
> more valuable than deserted ones - dead men buy no consumer
> products!  <G>

  No argument here as long as you _can _ do business with the natives.
However, if the said natives are a couple of hundred bumpkins silly enough
to claim they own the planet, don't want you there and don't want
anything to do with your products, things start looking a bit different.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:40:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners

Walter Smith writes:
> I'm thinking of the energy required to render a pile of uranium inert,
> and considering if this amount of energy focused on a person would
> do any harm. What happens to you if someone fiddles with the
> nuclear properties of all your atoms at once? Might be pretty bizarre.

Well, it doesn't require _any_ energy to render a pile of uranium inert (it
just requires lots of time).  Unless a nuclear damper is strong enough to break
down stable atoms (in which case its a disintegrator, and much higher tech
level) it won't have any effect on a human.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:01:14 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> A nuke damper has a field with two nodes, one that makes nuclear
> material more stable, and one that makes it less stable. You focus
> the appropriate node on your target depending on the effect you desire.
> Therefore you can stabilize a case of californium rounds by building
> nuke dampeners into it that focus the stabilizing node into the case.

  So the effect is transient? (Othervise the Californium rounds would be
forever useless coming out of the box.)

> In the case of civilian decontamination operations, a nuclear dampener
> would make an area emit energy for a brief period of time - perhaps
> as neutron radiation, perhaps as X-rays, who knows what. Afterwards,
> the area is non-radioactive - perhaps even less radioactive than normal
> background levels.

  Even a rapid but controlled release of energy is still radiation. The
radiation released would produce more unstable nuclei, not as much as
previously, but some. The radiation level would drop (maybe on a log
curve), but all radiation wouldn' just magically disappear. 
 
- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:03:27 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: re: Transporting Fuel Insystem

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> 
> Seems to me the whole idea behind the nuclear dampener is that it
> is a device special made to fool with the strong and weak nuclear
> forces - class it with jump drives, meson screens, contragrav and
> all those other things we build with the Trav design sequences but
> don't quite understand in the realworld (tm) yet.

   I agree. Meaning everyone gets to decide the finer details in their TU.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:10:39 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: World Builder Deluxe

Many thanks to everyone for the positive feedback on my World Builder
Program.

Several people have highlighted several minor bugs in the program which I am
currently resolving. If anyone has any bugs they wish to report let me know
and I will resolve them for the next Version.

I am currently working on the new Version which will include highlighted bug
fixes, and will allow you to Load in Sector Details and select a world to
generate. I had hoped to base this on Galactic 2.4 files, but they do not
provide sufficient information to generate a world. i.e. Stellar Data is
missing.

I hope to have Version 2 completed by the end of the week and will post
confirmation to the digest once I have uploaded the file to my server.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:01:55 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: colonizing hellholes

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Certainly, I just think mopping up a few hundred isolationist natives in
the name of progress is way below it. And if there are too many pesky
natives, the LIC:s can just call in the navy to exterminate them - also in
the name of progress of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Whose navy? The same Imperial navy that was going to beat on the
corp if the corp tried genocide themselves?

IYTU, does the Imperial Navy do the bidding of the Megacorps, or
does the Imperial Navy see the Megacorps as dangerous power
blocs that need to be kept under control?

IMTU, the corps played by certain rules. You didn't slaughter the
miners, you just bought out (with strongarm tactics if necessary)
the only places in-system where they could buy food and air, or
the only places they could sell their ore. Pretty soon you own the
miners as well. Economic domination, not armed invasion.

The Megacorps were pretty much OK as long as what they were
doing could be seen as primarily economic in nature. Declaring a
shooting war against an Imperial planet (no matter how small)
would gain them unwelcome attentions.  Using weapons
of mass destruction (like the germ warfare attack you mentioned)
would rapidly get them lots of attention - the kind of attention that
has "let's make an example out of them and everyone they know"
written all over it.

Eppu again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  No argument here as long as you _can _ do business with the natives.
However, if the said natives are a couple of hundred bumpkins silly enough
to claim they own the planet, don't want you there and don't want
anything to do with your products, things start looking a bit different.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As long as the aggression is confined to economics and deniable
subterfuge - say, rigging local elections to get a pro-Megacorp
president in charge - no problem. It's when corps start flaunting the
rules that they take the public relations hit - or, in cases where they
flaunt the rules too much, the spinal mount hits.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:08:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

Eppu Tuominen writes:

>   Even a rapid but controlled release of energy is still radiation. The
> radiation released would produce more unstable nuclei, not as much as
> previously, but some. The radiation level would drop (maybe on a log
> curve), but all radiation wouldn' just magically disappear. 

Bear in mind that radiation usually does _not_ create more radiation; neutron
emission is actually quite rare as a mode of radioactive decay, and that's the
only form of radiation which can create more radiation.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:15:25 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Nuclear Dampeners

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> A nuke damper has a field with two nodes, one that makes nuclear
> material more stable, and one that makes it less stable. You focus
> the appropriate node on your target depending on the effect you desire.
> Therefore you can stabilize a case of californium rounds by building
> nuke dampeners into it that focus the stabilizing node into the case.

  So the effect is transient? (Othervise the Californium rounds would be
forever useless coming out of the box.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Californium is a highly unstable radioactive isotope. In Traveller, it's
used for micronukes - ammunition that will, when mashed flat against
a tank, attain critical mass (some of the time) and give you a nice
punch. If you didn't have a way to keep it stable for long periods of time,
it would be useless the day after you took it home from the weapons
plant.

While the stabilizer node of the nuclear dampener is focused on the
californium, it doesn't radiate energy, doesn't revert to a more stable
isotope, it just sits there. When you take it out of the box (say by
firing it at something), it leaves the field of effect and immediately
becomes it's dangerously unstable and lovable self. Remember, that's 
the _stabilizing_ node we're talking about.

The other node, the _destabilizing_ one, is the node most relevant for
civilian decontamination operations. While the stabilizing node
prevents radioactive materials from changing at all, the destabilizing
node causes radioactive materials to change at an incredible rate,
shedding neutrons and energy until the radioactive materials
are no longer radioactive. The energy released may be dangerous
while the process is occurring, but apparently doesn't make surrounding
materials radioactive.

The effect is transient. The materials stop changing once you turn
off the dampener - changes made to the materials will be permanent.
A fusion rifle has transient effects as well - it only makes people
dead while you're shooting them, they generally don't get any deader 
afterwards.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:18:47 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Nuclear Dampeners

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Even a rapid but controlled release of energy is still radiation. The
radiation released would produce more unstable nuclei, not as much as
previously, but some. The radiation level would drop (maybe on a log
curve), but all radiation wouldn' just magically disappear.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It doesn't have to.

Humans evolved in a pretty radioactive environment. Get the radiation
even a little bit down a log curve and people can handle it. Most
environmental cleanup operations have an allowed tolerance level
as the target of the cleanup, not a 100% cleanup job.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:20:58 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules

> I'm also thinking food. Is this accounted for somewhere, or are we
> assuming hokey ST replicators?

FFS2 takes it into account, but only for low tech IMO (and TU).  Requires
variously stored foods (refrigerated, low berthed <g>, etc) unless one wants
algae vat food or to store livestock and have gardens, etc etc.  This should
be limited to Traveller tech level 9 (maybe 10) and down IMO.

A higher tech idea is in GURPS: Biotech, that of "Fauxflesh Vats."  It's the
(GURPS) TL9 meat version of hydroponics.  A "biomass" of geneered lean meat
tissue is sustained by the ships life support and is continuously growing.
It's harvested as needed or when it gets too big for its vat(s).   For MTU, a
certain number of vats are included with the life support costs of the ship.
I haven't decided on it, exactly, but i following the simple guideline of
Biotech...  small ships have a limited number (possibly only one, which
greatly limits variety ("Beef again?")).  Being a gearhead, i'll probably get
around to codifying it sometime, if someone doens't beat me to it, but it's
not high on my queue right now. ; )  Of course, given a catastrophic incident,
its possible the biomass could die or otherwise need replacement.  Malfunction
in the life support system could just fall on this rather than something that
could immediately kill the crew (temp/air/etc).

Another idea is cloning food.  W/ a forced-growth tank, it can be done pretty
quickly.
For really high tech, samples aren't even needed to begin cloning.  MT Ref's
Companion says individual organs can be cloned at TL13.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:37:48 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?

 "Jeff Zeitlin" <jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com> wrote:

>I have a few possibilities.  One requires that I maintain a (paid
>third-party) banner ad at the top and bottom of every page.  One adds a
>"watermark" to my page (and requires that I maintain their banner).  One
>creates a "pop-up" window every time a member page on their server is
>accessed, with advertising that they choose.  One creates a pop-up only on
>first entry to a particular member web site, again with advertising that
>they choose.  None of these are as attractive as my current space
>provider, but the arrangement with my current space provider is best
>described as "charity", and must be considered subject to revocation at
>any time.  Therefore, I'm exploring my alternatives.  I'm not going to
>move until and unless it becomes necessary, but I want to be prepared to
>move on short notice.
>
>Which of the alternatives is least objectionable to the audience?

This one...

"One creates a pop-up only on first entry to a particular member web site,
again with advertising that they choose."


I almost had this with the BITS site, then my ISP upgraded my account to
25mb from 5mb

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1272
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, December 14 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1273



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: colonising hellholes
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
re: colonizing hellholes
Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: colonising hellholes
re: Nuclear Dampeners
Re: Transporting fuel insystem 
Re: colonising hellholes 
Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
World Builder Deluxe
OFFT: Thought for the Season
RE: Please read, having problems.
RPGs
Re: OFFT: Thought for the Season
Shuttle (was Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class...) etc
RE: Please read, having problems.
re: Space Missile Design
Re: signing off for a little while
Final call for Circle Sea PBEM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:35:04 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi> wrote:

> (My apologies for drifting into 2300AD mode. I realise this must be
>distressing  to hardline Travellerists.)

Nah! If Traveller is meant to be _Hard_ Sci-fi, 2300  is _very hard_ sci-fi.

Superb game.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:59:26 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>, Re: Transporting fuel insystem
>Let's face it, you won't support an economy of
>several billion people exporting raw materials.

I don't know that you _can't_ do that.  But if you have that
many people, there are going to be some left over to start
making things (rather than having them imported), fixing
thing, and doing things for other people.  Thus industrial
and service sectors will develop naturally.  If you already
have a market of several billion, it is that big a step to
exporting those goods and services....

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:01:24 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: re: colonizing hellholes

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> Whose navy? The same Imperial navy that was going to beat on the
> corp if the corp tried genocide themselves?

 The IN would have to beat the shit out any corp that was stupid enough to
_get caught_ doing this. IMTU that would be the only reason they would:
PR.

> IYTU, does the Imperial Navy do the bidding of the Megacorps, or
> does the Imperial Navy see the Megacorps as dangerous power
> blocs that need to be kept under control?

 They see the corps as the guys who ultimately pick up their rather
outrageous annual bill.

> IMTU, the corps played by certain rules. You didn't slaughter the
> miners, you just bought out (with strongarm tactics if necessary)
> the only places in-system where they could buy food and air, or
> the only places they could sell their ore. Pretty soon you own the
> miners as well. Economic domination, not armed invasion.

  These are, naturally, the first courses of action. If they fail it's
time to finance a few unscrupulous starmercs to pull a black op, or even
to anonymously pay off a pirate band to do the job (you know,
deniability). A certain (canonical) megacorp even maintains a rather well
staffed black ops arm forn stuff like this, with a track record for
regularly screwing the INI stooges. (Now let's see, I think it was called
Vemene)

 > The Megacorps were pretty much OK as long as what they were
> doing could be seen as primarily economic in nature. Declaring a
> shooting war against an Imperial planet (no matter how small)
> would gain them unwelcome attentions.  Using weapons
> of mass destruction (like the germ warfare attack you mentioned)
> would rapidly get them lots of attention - the kind of attention that
> has "let's make an example out of them and everyone they know"
> written all over it.

  As I said, only if you're moronic enough to get caught. I'd bet more
than one megacorp with a none-too-bright CEO ended its days this way...

P.S: Yeah, I know I'm a sick bastard, and my game certainly reflects this.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:58:00 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

In a message dated 12/13/98 13:29:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

<< 
         "Performance is similar to an air/raft"
 
         "An air/raft can reach orbit in a number of hours equal to the size
 UWP of the planet." >>


	These are not air/rafts...they are combat gunships.  If you have access to CT
Book 4 Mercenary, look at the overview of armored vehicles by tech levels...It
is quite easy to see how a grav APC can get from orbit very quickly.  One must
also remember an air/raft has a ma speed of only 160Kph...I would say that
grav-powered combat vessels would be MUCH faster.

	DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:03:49 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

In a message dated 12/14/98 1:53:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, eptitu@utu.fi
writes:

<<   Don't know about you, but if I was a highly trained space ops specialist
 with half a deceade of tech school behind me, I wouldn't work in a place
 like this for much under Cr60000 a year. I mean, you do need _skilled_
 workers for a first stage vacuum colony. I'll admit the time frame was a
 bit  off considering the difficulty of travel. One long vacation a year
 (with low-berth travel of course) would probably be more on the mark.
 
    As for the family, unless you are married to a person who just happens
 to work in the same field, you end up with a very unhappy spouse working a
 minimum pay job that doesn't match his/her training at all. (Not like
 there's too many jobs on a small mining outpost for a high-end
 admin/service professionals. There'll be some, but not for nearly all of
 the family members with unrelated professions.)
 
   And what happens when the kids start growing up? You will not find a
 good university on a resource world... hell, you'd be lucky to find a
 decent high-school.  >>

	One take on this very type of situation was the movie "Outland", with Sean
Connery serving as a US Federal Marshal at a mining complex on Io.  His wife
was unhappy raising thier son on one outpost after another.  Not the best
Connery flick, but certainly well up on "Medicine Man"

DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:07:44 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:

 
> Bear in mind that radiation usually does _not_ create more radiation; neutron
> emission is actually quite rare as a mode of radioactive decay, and that's the
> only form of radiation which can create more radiation.
> 
  But is it in this case? Looking over the decription of nuke dampers, it
seems logical that this would be exactly the type of decay they would
cause. Don't know, though. As was already stated, this technology is
_way_ beyond our current understanding, so I think we'd better leave
detailed explanations up to individual referees.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:14:26 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, David P. Summers wrote:

> Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>, Re: Transporting fuel insystem
> >Let's face it, you won't support an economy of
> >several billion people exporting raw materials.
> 
> I don't know that you _can't_ do that.  But if you have that
> many people, there are going to be some left over to start
> making things (rather than having them imported), fixing
> thing, and doing things for other people.  Thus industrial
> and service sectors will develop naturally.  If you already
> have a market of several billion, it is that big a step to
> exporting those goods and services....
 
  Certainly not. The point I was arguing stated this _would_ happen. The
issue was the life support losses thus incurred. Surprising things can
contain oxygen/organic molecules, plastics do. The losses wouldn't be that
big p.u.m, and could certainly be replenished from outside. This is just
another thing that would eat into the total product of the economy.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:17:32 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:

  
>     As for the family, unless you are married to a person who just happens
>  to work in the same field, you end up with a very unhappy spouse working a
>  minimum pay job that doesn't match his/her training at all. (Not like
>  there's too many jobs on a small mining outpost for a high-end
>  admin/service professionals. There'll be some, but not for nearly all of
>  the family members with unrelated professions.)
>  
>    And what happens when the kids start growing up? You will not find a
>  good university on a resource world... hell, you'd be lucky to find a
>  decent high-school.  >>
> 
> 	One take on this very type of situation was the movie "Outland", with Sean
> Connery serving as a US Federal Marshal at a mining complex on Io.  His wife
> was unhappy raising thier son on one outpost after another.  Not the best
> Connery flick, but certainly well up on "Medicine Man"

 Yeah! Can you hazard a guess, which movie I was thinking of when I wrote
the original post?

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:20:57 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: re: Nuclear Dampeners

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> Eppu Tuominen wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>   Even a rapid but controlled release of energy is still radiation. The
> radiation released would produce more unstable nuclei, not as much as
> previously, but some. The radiation level would drop (maybe on a log
> curve), but all radiation wouldn' just magically disappear.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> It doesn't have to.
> 
> Humans evolved in a pretty radioactive environment. Get the radiation
> even a little bit down a log curve and people can handle it. Most
> environmental cleanup operations have an allowed tolerance level
> as the target of the cleanup, not a 100% cleanup job.

  I agree. But even this would take some pecievable time, don't you think?
It was the "waving things over with a nuke damper" part I was most
objecting to.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:38:48 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem 

> Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>, Re: Transporting fuel insystem
> >Let's face it, you won't support an economy of
> >several billion people exporting raw materials.
> 
> I don't know that you _can't_ do that.  But if you have that
> many people, there are going to be some left over to start
> making things (rather than having them imported), fixing
> thing, and doing things for other people.  Thus industrial
> and service sectors will develop naturally.  If you already
> have a market of several billion, it is that big a step to
> exporting those goods and services....

My take on it is kinda strange.  Sure, there will be plenty of good bucks to be
made exporting the raw materials.  There'll even be some more good bucks to be
made exporting semirefined materials.  There are also secondary sources of
exports as well.  Things like techniques and tools developed on that world
that will work someplace else, particularly if the tools and teechniques are
a couple TLs abouve the enduser's TL.

I can see this happening.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:55:58 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes 

> In a message dated 12/14/98 1:53:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, eptitu@utu.fi
> writes:
> 
> <<   Don't know about you, but if I was a highly trained space ops specialist
>  with half a deceade of tech school behind me, I wouldn't work in a place
>  like this for much under Cr60000 a year. I mean, you do need _skilled_
>  workers for a first stage vacuum colony. I'll admit the time frame was a
>  bit  off considering the difficulty of travel. One long vacation a year
>  (with low-berth travel of course) would probably be more on the mark.
>  
>     As for the family, unless you are married to a person who just happens
>  to work in the same field, you end up with a very unhappy spouse working a
>  minimum pay job that doesn't match his/her training at all. (Not like
>  there's too many jobs on a small mining outpost for a high-end
>  admin/service professionals. There'll be some, but not for nearly all of
>  the family members with unrelated professions.)

There's a lot more to a viable mining community than just running the mines.  
Think boomtowns in the old American West during the Gold Rush.  Miners need to 
eat, and if they're not going to be stuck buying instaheats off a Company 
boat, this means somebody's got to run the hydroponics and carniculture 
systems, *and* the food processing centers *and* the food distribution systems 
*and* waste management *and* atmospheric control.  Just a rough WASG, I'd say 
you'd need 5 support people in the background to put one miner in the mines, 
minimum.  You want to be the guy who's making and selling the pans to the gold 
miners.  And what do they do for recreation?  If you don't keep them busy in 
their offshift time, they'll get stircrazy and blood will fill the air 
filters.  Not good.  So you'll need security people and administrators to try 
to keep the stupidity to a minimum.  And entertainment workers (not 
necessarily prostitutes, mind you!) to keep the offshift workers busy.

Personally, I don't see *ANY* 'minimum wage jobs' in a mining colony.

>    And what happens when the kids start growing up? You will not find a
>  good university on a resource world... hell, you'd be lucky to find a
>  decent high-school.  >>

I'd think the Company recruiters would pay top dollar for good educators, and 
part of a long-term contract would be for chances at Company-sponsored 
scholarships to the best and brightest of the little anklebiters offworld in a 
'civilised' system nearby.  You *DON'T* want the next generation of miners and 
support people to be absolute uneducated idiots when you're working under 
hostile environments.  And the current crop of contract miners would *insist* 
on decent education for the rugrats before signing on.  After all, it's not 
like the Company is their last chance to make a buck...
 
> One take on this very type of situation was the movie "Outland", with Sean
> Connery serving as a US Federal Marshal at a mining complex on Io.  His wife
> was unhappy raising thier son on one outpost after another.  Not the best
> Connery flick, but certainly well up on "Medicine Man"

I liked Medicine Man.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:03:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

Eppu Tuominen writes:
> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
>  
> > Bear in mind that radiation usually does _not_ create more radiation;
> > neutron emission is actually quite rare as a mode of radioactive decay,
> > and that's the only form of radiation which can create more radiation.
> > 
>   But is it in this case? Looking over the decription of nuke dampers, it
> seems logical that this would be exactly the type of decay they would
> cause. Don't know, though. As was already stated, this technology is
> _way_ beyond our current understanding, so I think we'd better leave
> detailed explanations up to individual referees.

Huh?  Why?  Given that nuclear dampers only affect radioactive materials (and
fusion reactions), it seems reasonable that it won't mysteriously cause them to
decay in a different way from how they normally decay (if it does anything but
accelerate/decelerate decay, it would probably cause non-radioactive materials
to start decaying too).  The description of nuke dampers doesn't entirely make
sense (and probably wouldn't have the effects its credited with in the game
system), but doesn't obviously encourage greater neutron emissions in any case.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:35:02 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: World Builder Deluxe

Eric Holmes Wrote:-

>Could I suggest an entry for Imperial Squadrons data?
>That would make my day complete and I might attain
>Nirvana.

I would, but unfortunately I don't have the Imperial Squadrons sourcebook.
However, it will probably be one of my next T4 purchases. ;-)

I wouldn't want to deprive you from Nirvana.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:33:43 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: OFFT: Thought for the Season

This showed up on a BBS that I participate on.  'Nuff said.

>A friend of mine sent this to me -- thought it worth to pass along.



>It's just a small, white envelope stuck among the branches of our Christmas
>tree.  No name, no identification, no inscription.  It has peeked through the
>branches of our tree for the past 10 years or so.

>It all began because my husband Mike hated Christmas---oh, not the true
>meaning of Christmas, but the commercial aspects of it... overspending... the
>frantic running around at the last minute to get a tie for Uncle Harry and the
>dusting powder for Grandma---the gifts given in desperation because you
>couldn't think of anything else.  Knowing he felt this way, I decided one year
>to bypass the usual shirts, sweaters, ties and so forth.  I reached for
>something special just for Mike. The inspiration came in an unusual way.

>Our son Kevin, who was 12 that year, was wrestling at the junior level at the
>school he attended; and shortly before Christmas, there was a non-league match
>against a team sponsored by an inner-city church, mostly black.  These young-
>sters, dressed in sneakers so ragged that shoestrings seemed to be the only
>thing holding them together, presented a sharp contrast to our boys in their
>spiffy blue and gold uniforms and sparkling new wrestling shoes.  As the match
>began, I was alarmed to see that the other team was wrestling without head-
>gear, a kind of light helmet designed to protect a wrestler's ears. It was a
>luxury the ragtag team obviously could not afford.

>Well, we ended up walloping them.  We took every weight class.  And as each of
>their boys got up from the mat, he swaggered around in his tatters with false
>bravado, a kind of street pride that couldn't acknowledge defeat. Mike, seated
>beside me, shook his head sadly, "I wish just one of them could have won," he
>said. "They have a lot of potential, but losing like this could take the heart
>right out of them."  Mike loved kids-all kids-and he knew them, having coached
>little league football, baseball and lacrosse.

>That's when the idea for his present came.  That afternoon, I went to a local
>sporting goods store and bought an assortment of wrestling headgear and shoes
>and sent them anonymously to the inner-city church. On Christmas Eve, I placed
>the envelope on the tree, the note inside telling Mike what I had done and
>that this was his gift from me.  His smile was the brightest thing about
>Christmas that year and in succeeding years.

>For each Christmas, I followed the tradition---one year sending a group of
>mentally handicapped youngsters to a hockey game, another year a check to a
>pair of elderly brothers whose home had burned to the ground the week before
>Christmas, and on and on.

>The envelope became the highlight of our Christmas.  It was always the last
>thing opened on Christmas morning and our children, ignoring their new toys,
>would stand with wide-eyed anticipation as their dad lifted the envelope from
>the tree to reveal its contents.  As the children grew, the toys gave way to
>more practical presents, but the envelope never lost its allure.

>The story doesn't end there.

>You see, we lost Mike last year due to dreaded cancer.  When Christmas rolled
>around, I was still so wrapped in grief that I barely got the tree up.  But
>Christmas Eve found me placing an envelope on the tree, and in the morning, it
>was joined by three more. Each of our children, unbeknownst to the others, had
>placed an envelope on the tree for their dad.  The tradition has grown and
>someday will expand even further with our grandchildren standing around the
>tree with wide-eyed anticipation watching as their fathers take down the
>envelope.  Mike's spirit, like the Christmas spirit, will always be with us.

>May we all remember Christ, who is the reason for the season, and the true
>Christmas spirit this year and always.

>God bless---pass this along to your friends and loved ones.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:29:53 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: RE: Please read, having problems.

G'day

Colin

At 22:54 10/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>   Here you go.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Chris Seamans [SMTP:semo@pil.net]
>Sent:	Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:53 AM
>To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject:	Please read, having problems.
>
>This is a test. If anybody ends up reading this on the Traveller Mailing
>List, please drop me an e-mail. I would appreciate it. From where I'm
>sitting, it looks like the list is down :-(
>
>Thanks
>
>Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
>"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
>"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
>     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"
>
>Attachment Converted: "C:\COLINS EMAIL\Attach\RE Please read, having problem"
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:54:04 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: RPGs

Jeff Zietline wrote:

>Over on rec.games.frp.gurps, some poor soul was apparently
>derided for being involved in RPGs, and posted a question asking
>if it was inappropriate for him to be interested in RPGs.  The
>question is quoted at the beginning of the following, but I was
>more interested in the response.  I think the person respondin
>here has a good point.

>>:>"Slade" <someone@here.com> wrote:>
>>
>>:>> I am an aspiring GM, but I havn't even played the game that
>>:>> much and I feel guility for playing because my x girlfriend
>>:>> says Im too old for these games and I am weird for playing
>>:>> them.
>>
>>  I view RPGing as a decendent of the story telling tradition. 
>> Story telling is a very old tradition, one that depends not on
>> age but imagination (ie. Homer and ilk).  "Playing" in an RPG
>> is similar to telling a story and acting in a play.  It's also
>> similar to writing a book (OK, outline of a book) if you're a
>> creative GM.  Outlining a book is no easy task.  I have
>> learned alot about writing stories and tho I'm no expert at
>> it, I found
>> I appreciate literature more because of roleplaying.

Speaking from a Gearhead-1 Credhead-1 GM-0 POV, I enjoy the
creative and world-building aspects of Traveller.  "Games" and
simulations give me some insight into real-world science,
technology, and economics and the interplay among them that I
would not get otherwise.  Sure, it's "play"...but it gives me
incentive to play with knowledge and skills that would otherwise rust
from disuse.
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:19:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OFFT: Thought for the Season

Thank you.  You will, no doubt, be flamed.  That just proves it is
more blessed to give than to receive  ;->



- ---Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:
>
> This showed up on a BBS that I participate on.  'Nuff said.
> 
> >A friend of mine sent this to me -- thought it worth to pass along.
> 
[snipped due to length]



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
IMTU 0601 tc++ tm !tn t4 ?tg ge- 3i pi ta+ he+ 
http://come.to/traveller

Visit the "Subsidized Merchant" - http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:23:07 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Shuttle (was Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class...) etc

Dear Folks -

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>What's the advantage of the shuttle?

Speed.

The only G-Carrier that can fly near the speed of a CT or MT shuttle is the
Imperial Marine Grav APC (1000+ kmh). From (admittedly poor) memory, a MT
shuttle can fly at 2000+ kmh, while a G-Carrier can only manage 120 kmh.

Anyone with MT Encyc handy can feel free to correct these speeds.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:29:53 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: RE: Please read, having problems.

Soory all about that last post, I should have sent it back to the sender.

Colin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:59:05 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Space Missile Design

At 03:53 PM 14/12/98 +1300, you wrote:
>At 13:11 14/12/98 +1000, David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson wrote:
>
>>6G's is NEVER enough! If you are fighting 6G ships, you need much faster
>>missiles in order to catch up (OK, this assumes a "stern-chaser" scenario).
>>I tweaked the old "Missiles" special supplement to create standard
>>(civilian) 10G turret missiles, with military bay missiles coming in at
>>21G. This means that Mayday combat becomes more like HG, in that the
>>missiles fire and hit in the same turn - and you don't need those pesky
>>missile markers cluttering up your battlespace.
>
>Well if you're willing to spend the credits I've got a TL13 missile that'll
>do 17G136 with a 100kt warhead. FF&S1, of course.
>
>-- 
        Hi, Rupert...
        If he wants to still with CT, I can show him some obnoxious SS3
designs as well...  I *really* like my Star Lance design.... =)

        Regards,
           --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:56:39 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: signing off for a little while

Dear Folks -

Anyone know Glenn Goffin personally? On Friday he said he was off to
Thailand on vacation. I just want to be sure he was no-where near Surat
Thani on Saturday.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:06:27 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Final call for Circle Sea PBEM

Final call for Circle Sea PBEM

Could those people who have still to confirm please do so tommorrow. I will be 
sending out setups etc in the next three days and I need to get things worked 
out.

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1273
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 15 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1274



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
Re: OFFT: Thought for the Season
Re: regulating megacorps
Re: High Guard supply rules
Re: OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?
Fw: Canada's military on call for Y2k
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
Re: High Guard optional rules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:26:11 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

In a message dated 12/14/98 2:08:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
DustyLV769@aol.com writes:

<< These are not air/rafts...they are combat gunships.  If you have access to CT
 Book 4 Mercenary, look at the overview of armored vehicles by tech levels...It
 is quite easy to see how a grav APC can get from orbit very quickly.  One must
 also remember an air/raft has a ma speed of only 160Kph...I would say that
 grav-powered combat vessels would be MUCH faster.
 
 	DustyLV769 >>

I do remember that the G carrier in Striker was TL (10-11?) and mediocre. The
TL 15 Marine Grav APC on the other hand was a real bear (I think it survivied
all the way up to FFS2 as the Astrin). Perhaps the G carrier is the poor man's
(read Mercs, and corp.) APC and could use the protection of the shuttle. The
top line stuff on the other hand shouldn't (unless you REALLY got to get them
on the ground quickly)...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:29:02 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: OFFT: Thought for the Season

In a message dated 12/14/98 5:26:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jzeitlin@cyburban.com writes:

<< May we all remember Christ, who is the reason for the season, and the true
 >Christmas spirit this year and always.
 
 >God bless---pass this along to your friends and loved ones.
 
 -- >>

This story touched me, and I'm Jewish. Charity is non denominational....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:45:30
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: regulating megacorps

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: colonizing hellholes
>

<lots of good stuff deleted>

>The Impies will let a corp get away with a lot - after all, in some ways
>the Megacorps _are_ the Empire - but there will be a line (guarded
>by battle cruisers) that the corps cross at their peril. 
>
>Besides, there are much more profitable ways to take over a world
>than exterminating the population. Inhabited worlds can be much
>more valuable than deserted ones - dead men buy no consumer
>products!  <G>

The Imperium has a lot of other ways to stop megacorps and others from
crossing the line, and a need to do it, because as Walt says, the Megacorps
are the Imperium.

My favorite royalty story comes from Thailand. At one time, there were
student protests against the military government, and the military broke
them up with live ammunition. A representitive of the palace asked the
student leaders if they wanted to set up first aid stations in the palace
grounds, the students did so and within 48 hours the military government
had resigned.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:48:14
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: High Guard supply rules

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules
>
>> I'm also thinking food. Is this accounted for somewhere, or are we
>> assuming hokey ST replicators?
>
>FFS2 takes it into account, but only for low tech IMO (and TU).  Requires
>variously stored foods (refrigerated, low berthed <g>, etc) unless one wants
>algae vat food or to store livestock and have gardens, etc etc.  This should
>be limited to Traveller tech level 9 (maybe 10) and down IMO.
>

Food itself isnt that much of an issue, if you have water recycling. I can
imagine half a kilo of dried food would be about right, and that means you
can put many people-months into a m3 of storage.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:16:12 +0100 (MET)
From: 324064@cienz.unizar.es
Subject: Re: OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?

At 09:15 14/12/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Web Space! I Need More Web Space!  Or at least I _will_, if everything I
want to implement in Freelance Traveller does in fact come to pass...
>
>I'm not asking for donations from anyone on the list, as Freelance
Traveller now has some pretty significant technical requirements, which
cause it to be a hardship to rebuild to avoid (most significantly, many of
the future ideas are predicated on the existence of the Microsoft FrontPage
Server extensions).  I'm looking at the "free" services, some of which _do_
offer what I need.
>
>I have a few possibilities.  One requires that I maintain a (paid
third-party) banner ad at the top and bottom of every page.  One adds a
"watermark" to my page (and requires that I maintain their banner).  One
creates a "pop-up" window every time a member page on their server is
accessed, with advertising that they choose.  One creates a pop-up only on
first entry to a particular member web site, again with advertising that
they choose.  None of these are as attractive as my current space provider,
but the arrangement with my current space provider is best described as
"charity", and must be considered subject to revocation at any time.
Therefore, I'm exploring my alternatives.  I'm not going to move until and
unless it becomes necessary, but I want to be prepared to move on short notice.
>
>Which of the alternatives is least objectionable to the audience?
The second
>-- 
>Jeff Zeitlin
>Editor, Freelance Traveller
>freetrav@hotmail.com, jzeitlin@cyburban.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:45:29 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Fw: Canada's military on call for Y2k

Here's something for the TNE types:

> This may be of interest:
>From The Age, Live Breaking News, 14 December; at:
http://www.theage.com.au/daily/981214/breaking/

Canada's military on call for Y2K chaos

The Canadian government may invoke emergency powers in 2000 in
case chaos and panic results from the Y2K computer bug, the Ottawa
Citizen reported this week citing an official report.

``Among the activities that must be done to meet the problems
resulting from Y2000 failures is development of relevant emergency
orders and regulations required for the invocation of emergency
provisions under the Emergencies Act,'' the report said.

``In the worst case, we should consider the Emergencies Act a
potential source of special powers,'' the Year 2000 Contingency
Planning Group of Emergency Preparedness Canada said in
the report.

It recommended that the legislative procedures needed to
implement the Emergencies Act should be ready by the end of March
next year.

Defence ministry spokesman John Blakely told the paper
that invoking special powers was only a prudent contingency the
government was considering.

``The question of whether it will be required or not is
one that will have to be determined at the time,'' Blakely said.

According to the paper Canadian troops have already been
advised to prepare for what would be the greatest peacetime
deployment of soldiers in case of unrest or other troubles due to the
computer bug.

The deployment operation, known as ``Abacus,'' foresees
the imposition of martial law and soldiers assisting the
police, the paper said.

Computer experts have predicted many systems, including
those controlling banking, power and transportation, could shut
down with the advent of the next millennium as their two digit date
system fails to distinguish between 2000 and 1900.

     - AFP

     Published: Mon Dec 14 08:52:07 EST 1998

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:15:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Yeah, for one thing, there's a 50% chance that the amino acids have the
>> wrong handedness. And the same goes for sugars. As I recall Earth has
>> right-handed amino acids and left-handed sugars, but I may have that
>> backwards. 
>> 
>> At a minimum wrong-handed material has *no* food value. At worst, it's
>> actively detrimental. 
>> 
>> So you could have a garden world that you could starve to death on. And
>> establishing "Terran" plants and animals in the face of a healthy
>> native ecology won't be much fun.
>>
>   Actually, on a planet with wrong handed amino-acids it's a cakewalk
> compared to a world with compatible biosphere. Incompatible chemistry
> means local diseases won't affect the colonists and their plants and
> animals at all. Once you have clared a patch of soil, you just put in
> Terran microbes and whatnot, and the crop plants can grow with no risk of
> infection. (Somebody suggested doing this for dead vacuum dust, I'd say
> sterilized soil is easier.) Pests and predators stupid enough to eat
> anything Terran will either get smart or starve to dearth pretty quick.

The problem is that you have to not merely *sterilize* the soil, but
you have to *remove* the "wrong handed" chemicals, as they are *worse*
than useless. 

That's a *major* pain. You may be able to develop bacteria that break
down the wrong-handed protiens or sugars. But they'll be even happier
breaking down stuff with the *proper* handedness.

If a world has the "right" handedness and the like, you aren't going to
be in much danger from diseases or parasites. Things like fungal
infections are possible, but can be countered the same way normal
fungal infections are. 

You can use soil by merely killing the native organisms, no need to
break down compounds. The native stuff will compete with you. But that
won't be much worse than weeds on earth.

With a wrong-handed biosphere, you'll have all those useless chemicals
"clogging" the soil. If you break them down, the soil will work for
both terran *and* native life. And native life won't be bothered by any
leftover native compounds. 

>> Another possibility is that there are *natives*, and they don't want a
>> bunch of "aliens" running around on their planet.
>
>   See my earlier post. (Duh... Frank, wasn't there like some dumb natives,
> who didn't want us colonists here?  What natives, do you like see anybody
> around? *evil grin*)

"Sambquh, remember those stupid aliens who tried to take away our land?"

For example, consider what happens to a proto-colony if the pissed off
natives stampede the local equivalent of a pre-1800 buffalo herd over
the colony site? (Hint: these herds were *miles* across and miles long).

>  > The wrong-handedness bit is the most *likely* form of
>> bio-incompatability, but others are possible, such as lacking vital
>> amino acids, having large amounts of amino acids not found in terran
>> life, or having some form of carbohydrate *other* than sugar & starch
>> be how the plant life stores energy.
>
>   All of these have the same solution, wipe out the local ecosphere as you
> expand your own. Incopatability works both ways. The real problem here
> might be the green groups and other "regressionist weenies" (a megacorp
> view, not mine) whining about humans meddling with alien biospheres.

Well, the alien bioshpere has the advantage of *size* on its side. As I
noted above, you'd have to remove or breakdown "native" chemicals in
soil just to get to a point where native and terran organisms are on an
equal footing. And every time native material is deposited by wind or
rain or underground water seepage, it gets a bit of an advantage.

Sure, the native life can't eat teran life. But it *can* mangle it, and
choke it. And there's a lot more native life than terran.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:37:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

In mail you write:

> A nuke damper has a field with two nodes, one that makes nuclear
> material more stable, and one that makes it less stable. You focus
> the appropriate node on your target depending on the effect you desire.
> Therefore you can stabilize a case of californium rounds by building
> nuke dampeners into it that focus the stabilizing node into the case.
>
> The destabilizing node is used to make nuclear materials inert,
> not just while the node is focused on it, but for good - it changes
> the rate neutrons are shed by the radioactive matter. It seems that
> you can affect how this energy is shed as well - Nuke Dampers
> don't seem intended to make a nuke missile explode early (an
> effect of instantly turning up the reaction rate), they must cause a
> rapid but controlled release of energy.

Actually, a critical mass *won't* explode. Not unless it is *confined*
long enough for the reaction to proceed far enough. That's what the
explosive charge in the warhead does. It keeps the *initial* energy
release from scattering the fissionables before the reaction can get
very far.

If you just place a critical mass together, you'll get a *small*
explosion, which will partially melt the fissionables and scatter them
over a few feet or yards. 

This has happened in storage facilities when people screw up. 

So when the nuke "damper" (actually "accelerator" in this case) hits a
warhead, the subcritical mass(es) in the warhead will "catastrophically
disassemble". They'll release a large amount of energy, until the
energy release is high enough to melt them or to physically break them
up. This will happen *faster* than the explosives can react. 

So you'll get a burst of neutrons and x-rays/gamma rays, that will
trail off quickly (a few microseconds) as the mass(es) scatters. After
a few milliseconds the explosives will detonate and complete the
scattering of the warhead. 

So what was a missile will be an expanding cloud of contaminated
shrapnel. The blast will hardly be noticeable from a few miles off.

> In the case of civilian decontamination operations, a nuclear dampener
> would make an area emit energy for a brief period of time - perhaps
> as neutron radiation, perhaps as X-rays, who knows what. Afterwards,
> the area is non-radioactive - perhaps even less radioactive than normal
> background levels.

I'd say it comes off as exactly the sort of radiation it would release
at normal decay rates. Just faster. That means mostly alpha and beta
radiation, with the occasional neutron and gamma. The alphas and betas
are very short ranged and will get absorbed by surrounding materials or
by a few yards of air. Their energy will wind up as heat.

The main factor in using a "damper" to clean up a site is whether or
not there are any fissionables present. They can release a lot of
energy when decay is accelerated, and they release a lot of neutrons,
which tend to make surrounding materials radioactive. 

So after a slow start (to check for enexpected fissionables) I'd say
that you'd turn up the decay rate until the site is producing heat at
the max rate you are willing to allow. 

You don't want it to melt (usually). And you don't want the heat to
create strong uprafts which might carry away contaminated dust. You
also want to avoid steam explosions in the ground. And avoid
radioactive steam. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:53:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

In mail you write:

>   Even a rapid but controlled release of energy is still radiation. The
> radiation released would produce more unstable nuclei, not as much as
> previously, but some. The radiation level would drop (maybe on a log
> curve), but all radiation wouldn' just magically disappear. 

But radiation does *not* make non-radioactive materials radioactive.
The only way to do *that* is via neutron capture or emission. 

Most radioactives do not *emit* neutrons, so they cannot induce
radioactivity. The alpha and beta particles emitted can break up
molecules and are thus dangerous to life forms. But they don't create
radioactivity. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:58:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In mail you write:

> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:05:10 +0200 (EET)
> From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
> Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem
> (Irradiated bedrock is a bitch to clean up even wit hi-tech
> toys...)
> ***********
> Nah, in trav you can just wave a damper over it....
>
>
>> And right *now* they have experimental tunneling machines using CPAWS!
>   Irradiated rock again! No way around this one, no matter how hi-tech
> your PAW is.
> ********
> Dampers again.

CPAWS (electron beams in this case) do *not* induce radioactivity!
If they did, every TV set, computer monitor, and other CRT would have
to be treated as nuclear waste.

Radiation <> Radioactivity

The high energy particle impacts will create X-rays or gamma rays. They
*won't* make the target radioactive. So anyone in the target area will
get irradiated. But when the beam is turned off, there will be *no*
radiation present.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:05:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:
>  
>> Well, first of all, just because it has a type 6 atmosphere and some water
>> doesnt mean it's a garden world. 
>
>    IYTU it may not (same happens to hold true IMTU), but canonically it
> _does_. That's what I thought we were discussing.
>
>> Secondly, the jump home and back is going to cost about Cr 8000 round trip,
>> so with 3 trips a year, thats KCr 24 in transport costs, which is about
>> double the average income on a TL11 world. You might as well bring the
>> husband and kids, have him work in the Life Support system, and have the
>> kids in a creche (or share shifts, or whatever). Cash in your vouchers at
>> two-thirds of par, then after 5 years you have KCr 90.
>
>   Don't know about you, but if I was a highly trained space ops specialist
> with half a deceade of tech school behind me, I wouldn't work in a place
> like this for much under Cr60000 a year. I mean, you do need _skilled_
> workers for a first stage vacuum colony. I'll admit the time frame was a
> bit  off considering the difficulty of travel. One long vacation a year
> (with low-berth travel of course) would probably be more on the mark.

*Nobody* with money or the intelligence required to aquire that
training you value is going to ride in a low berth except in an
emergency. A 10% chance of death each time means that there's only an
81% chance of surviving the round trip. And only a 35% chance of
lasting through a 5 year term with a round trip each year.

>    As for the family, unless you are married to a person who just happens
> to work in the same field, you end up with a very unhappy spouse working a
> minimum pay job that doesn't match his/her training at all. (Not like
> there's too many jobs on a small mining outpost for a high-end
> admin/service professionals. There'll be some, but not for nearly all of
> the family members with unrelated professions.)

What makes you think that people with the required skills (which will
be about as common as various types of construction worker skills here
on earth) will be married to that sort of person?

>   And what happens when the kids start growing up? You will not find a
> good university on a resource world... hell, you'd be lucky to find a
> decent high-school. 

Sending kids off to boarding schools is far from uncommon.

BTW, I'd say that a good analog for this sort of thing is what went on
in Alaska when they were building the big oil pipeline and drilling the
wells on the North Slope.

People with families didn't go. Instead you had young men getting high
pay, and *not* taking vacations. They'd get time off (mandatory as I
recall), but they pretty much stuck to the theaters and whorehouses. 

And when they *were* working, they worked long hours. 


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:22:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> >>
>> >   ...while the nice, balmy garden world next door has a couple of
>> > dozen inhabitants.
>> 
>> It may be owned by *very* unfriendly people. Or it may be easy to live
>> on, but have no resources worth the trouble. 
>
>   Well, from where I sit being easy to live on _is_ a resource worth the
> trouble. And as for the unfriendly people, if there are a couple of
> hundred of them (you can find these on the map), and a megacorp wants the
> garden world (maybe to sypply several nearby mining colonies), the odds
> are that scattering of unfriendly natives will simply disappear.

What if those "unfriendly natives" are the caretakers for the Sector
Duke's estate (the planet)? :-)
  
>> But compare passage costs. High or middle passage costs a *lot* more
>> than airfare. And there's still the problem of the "nice" world
>> possibly being off limits.
>
>   Why not go for low-passage, at TL-12+ this is utterly safe and much
> cheaper. (Admittedly more than one trip a year would probably still be
> unfeasible.) A highly trained professional has to make at least kCr50-80 a
> year (as straight salary or profit%) to even consider working in a place
> like this. With dough like this 10000 a year isn't going to hurt _too_
> much. 

Huh? Last time I checked, low berths had a 10% chance of killing you.
Period. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:02:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > Exporting metals and minerals won't deplete organics. I doubt that
>> they'll be exporting anything with a high organic content unless
>> they've got *lots* of spare biomass.
>
>   There happens to be oxygen bound into many refined metal compounds, the
> same goes for plastics. Not much of course, but if you're exporting
> millions of tons a year... Let's face it, you won't support an economy of
> several billion people exporting raw materials. 

Not much oxygen! And the *ores* from which you extract most metals are
*oxides* of the metal. Metal production will result in a net *increase*
in available oxygen.

>> Excavating the caverns is *cheap*. A single nuclear demolition charge
>> will produce a *huge* cavern. The initial spherical cavity winds up
>> with a puddle of "melt" in the bottom, and that gets covered over when
>> the fractured rock above the cavity collapses. So you wind up with a
>> cylindrical cavity with a hemispherical top and a bottom composed of
>> loose rock over the melt puddle. 
>
>  Define huge, the temperature at ground zero is certainly enough to
> vaporize rock, but since energy density falls off relative to the second
> power of distance, the temperature is going to be below melting point of
> rock just a few hundred meters away even for a megaton-scale device. After
> that you just have a bunch of hyprpressurized gases blowing a huge warren
> of massively unstable cracks around the melt cave.

You forget that the blast effects are mostly due to absorption of
x-rays from the nuclear reaction. The rock absorbs these and converts
into high temp plasma.

In any case, they have excavvated large underground chambers using
nukes. I don't have the references handy. The walls are stable because
it *doesn't* create the cracks you are thinking. Or rather, such cracks
as *are* generated, result in the rock being seperated from the wall
*by* the gases.

These cavities are long term stable, at least in the 5-10 year range
(as that had been how long the cavities had existed at the time my
references were written). 

And in any case, you *would* want to line the resulting cavity with
*something* (concrete, fused rock, whatever) to ensure that it was
sealed properly and stabilized in case of undetected fissures in the
rock. 

>   To support billions of people you'd need cubic klicks of cave, hence
> hundreds to thousands of _big_ nukes. At around Mcr10 a pop this is
> starting to hurt. You'd have to do this in one stage too, not like you can
> expand with nuclear blasts with people living next door. Also, after the
> blasts you get to wait a few decades before the radiation falls to livable
> levels. (Irradiated bedrock is a bitch to clean up even wit hi-tech
> toys...) 

First, check out the cost of excavating a similar sized cavity (say 500
meters diameter and a couple of km high) used normal excavation
methods. Nukes *are* cheaper.

Second, the radioactivity is trapped in the melt pool at the bottom of
the cavity, which is buried under tens of meters of rock. 

Third, you can create new cavities quite close to older ones. They did
tests on this. Heck, you can detonate then such that the cavities
overlap. Though that's rather tricky.

>> They've actually considered this technology for underground storage
>> facilities. 
>
>   I hear the Ruskies tried this. (Not 600km from our border, I might add,
> the bastards.) From what I gathered, the results weren't too exhilarating.

The US tests were in Nevada, and seemed to be ok, but public fears of
anything "nuclear" ended any possibility of civilian uses for a long
time. But the military still has it in reserve if they ever need large
underground storage tanks for oil or water.

>> I figure that most of these places start out as one of three things:
>> 
>> 1. Way station. It's the best choice in the system, and having
>>    *something* there makes trade easier. A place to refuel, or even to
>>    just wait while you send a message on to get the replacement for
>>    that part that wasn't supposed to fail... :-)
>> 
>> 2. Research base. Something was deemed of interest by some scientists,
>>    and they got enough funding to establish a small base.
>> 
>> 3. Mining colony. Some sort of mineral deposits were found that some
>>    optimists felt were worth the cost of mining and shipping.
>
>   All of these are feasible, and exist IMTU too, and I'm not saying some
> of them might not grow really large, but many hundreds all around seems
> stretching it a bit.

Check out places in the real world that started out as way stations.
Centuries later many of them have huge populations. 

Mining tends to have the actual mine sites depopulate, but the nearby
"support" areas sometimes prosper on their own. 

Research stations haven't been around long enough to see how much they
can grow over a few centuries.

>> BTW, for simple tunneling, I bet a modified PGMP/FGMP does a great job.
>> :-)
>
>  No argument, very good for mining. You'd just need tend of thousands to
> excavate a sizeable colony, and the buggers cost upwards of a million in
> sufficiently lage sizes.

>> And right *now* they have experimental tunneling machines using CPAWS!
>
>   Irradiated rock again! No way around this one, no matter how hi-tech
> your PAW is.

See my other post. You get radiation *while* it is operating. Turn it
off and there is no *residual* radiation. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:53:33 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

At 04:58 PM 14/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/13/98 13:29:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:
>
><< 
>         "Performance is similar to an air/raft"
> 
>         "An air/raft can reach orbit in a number of hours equal to the size
> UWP of the planet." >>
>
>
>	These are not air/rafts...they are combat gunships.  If you have access to CT
>Book 4 Mercenary, look at the overview of armored vehicles by tech levels...It
>is quite easy to see how a grav APC can get from orbit very quickly.  One must
>also remember an air/raft has a ma speed of only 160Kph...I would say that
>grav-powered combat vessels would be MUCH faster.
>
>	DustyLV769
        
        The first quote is from pp111 of "The Traveller Book" under the
description for GCarriers.  The description (I can post the rest if you
like) does not describe them a "combat gunships".  The second quote is pp111
as well, describing Ari/Rafts.

        Canon.

        Further, pp30 of "Rule Book 3 - Equipement" (Striker Rules) clearly
indicates they have a top speed of 300kph, and the contra-grav system is
capable of maximum 1.25Gs, and defaults as unarmed.
        You might be thinking of the TL15 Imperial Marine Grav APC on pp29
(Ibid), which has performance maximums of 600kph/1.5Gs and is heavily armed.

        MTU is a TL 11 maximum game, with TL 9 being Terran Sphere average,
so the IMG APC is *very* not an option.  Hence the requirement to haul the
G-Carriers down by assault shuttle.

        Regards,
           --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:29:19 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules

This reminds me of a short story by Larry Niven, from his Known Space 
Series, I forget the title.  We had encountered an alien species, and 
sent a trade mission to their homeworld.  Being of similar chemistry, 
they took all sorts of tissue and fluid samples from the members.  Only 
at the end of the trade negotiations did we find that they were cloning 
the members for _FOOD_.  Imagine, a roasted clone of yourself lying on 
an alien family's table.  

EEWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Be afraid, be very afraid.............

JimC 

- ----Original Message Follows----
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:20:58 EST
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

> I'm also thinking food. Is this accounted for somewhere, or are we
> assuming hokey ST replicators?

FFS2 takes it into account, but only for low tech IMO (and TU).  
Requires
variously stored foods (refrigerated, low berthed <g>, etc) unless one 
wants
algae vat food or to store livestock and have gardens, etc etc.  This 
should
be limited to Traveller tech level 9 (maybe 10) and down IMO.

A higher tech idea is in GURPS: Biotech, that of "Fauxflesh Vats."  It's 
the
(GURPS) TL9 meat version of hydroponics.  A "biomass" of geneered lean 
meat
tissue is sustained by the ships life support and is continuously 
growing.
It's harvested as needed or when it gets too big for its vat(s).   For 
MTU, a
certain number of vats are included with the life support costs of the 
ship.
I haven't decided on it, exactly, but i following the simple guideline 
of
Biotech...  small ships have a limited number (possibly only one, which
greatly limits variety ("Beef again?")).  Being a gearhead, i'll 
probably get
around to codifying it sometime, if someone doens't beat me to it, but 
it's
not high on my queue right now. ; )  Of course, given a catastrophic 
incident,
its possible the biomass could die or otherwise need replacement.  
Malfunction
in the life support system could just fall on this rather than something 
that
could immediately kill the crew (temp/air/etc).

Another idea is cloning food.  W/ a forced-growth tank, it can be done 
pretty
quickly.
For really high tech, samples aren't even needed to begin cloning.  MT 
Ref's
Companion says individual organs can be cloned at TL13.


Gary





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1274
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 15 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1275



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: colonizing hellholes
Re: World Builder Deluxe
Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k
Re: High Guard supply rules
Re: X-Boat Routes
Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k
Re: High Guard supply rules
Re: High Guard optional rules: supply
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
RE: colonising hellholes
Looking for Solomani&Aslan
Re: High Guard optional rules
Re: Transporting fuel insystem 
Re: colonising hellholes 
Re: GT Aliens, v.2
Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?
Re: Transporting fuel insystem

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:49:23 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: colonizing hellholes

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> would gain them unwelcome attentions.  Using weapons
> of mass destruction (like the germ warfare attack you mentioned)
> would rapidly get them lots of attention - the kind of attention that
> has "let's make an example out of them and everyone they know"
> written all over it.

  As I said, only if you're moronic enough to get caught. I'd bet more
than one megacorp with a none-too-bright CEO ended its days this way...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think the cost/benefit analysis would make such behaviour on the
part of a Megacorp rare. Behaviour that (if caught) would get you a
lawsuit or a fine, or even a prison term for one of your subsector
managers, can be risk-analyzed with a possible predicted benefit
that would lead a corp manager to try it. Behaviour that, if caught,
would cause the ruin of your entire multi-gigacredit operation would
get a manager cashiered for even mentioning it, even if the chance of
getting caught was less than 1% - no one-op reward is worth that kind
of risk exposure.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 06:56:02 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: World Builder Deluxe

Awsome stuff!!  Between Galactic 2.4, Accrete and WBD, you can crank out 
basic data on whole SYSTEMS!!!  And only in a few minutes each.  
Marvelous.  Thanks to all those who have the skill and time to create 
such things.

JimC


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:06:09 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k

Yah and I remember seeing a news story saying that the RCMP was not allowing
any of it's members book holidays fro the last part of 1999 and the first 3
months
of 2000 also.

Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 3:29 AM
Subject: Fw: Canada's military on call for Y2k


>Here's something for the TNE types:
>
>> This may be of interest:
>>From The Age, Live Breaking News, 14 December; at:
>http://www.theage.com.au/daily/981214/breaking/
>
>Canada's military on call for Y2K chaos
<snip of news story>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:33:57 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: High Guard supply rules

In a message dated 12/15/98 12:01:57 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ianw@orac.net.au writes:

<< Food itself isnt that much of an issue, if you have water recycling. I can
 imagine half a kilo of dried food would be about right, and that means you
 can put many people-months into a m3 of storage.
 
 Ian Whitchurch
  >>

quantity isn't a problem, but what about quality. That's why the navy makes
sure that the sub drivers have the best food...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:38:29 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Routes

"Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com> wrote:

> Does anyone else find it amusing that the Jump-4 express boat route between
> Tenalphi and Strouden in Lunion subsector is actually 5 parsecs long?  Let
> alone that the whole Shirene-Strouden-Tenalphi loop goes nowhere.

It didn't always "go nowhere".  I've seen at least three versions of the
Spinward Marches X-boat net, and the original CT/MT grid had a link that
ran Strouden-Persephone-Marastan-Ffudn.  (But all of them have a jump-5
Tenalphi-Strouden link.  I think Tenalphi-Persephone-Strouden would make
sense.)

The original version is the one in CT's "Spinward Marches Campaign" and
the indside cover of one of the MT rulebooks.  Take this as the base 
network.

Changes in GT:Behind the Claw --

  Reston-Capon added (probably a typo that it was missing on the old map)
  Strouden-Persephone-Marastan deleted
  Risek-Dhian-Inthe deleted

Changes in MT:MegaTraveller Journal #1 --

  Reston-Capon added
  Ffudn-Weiss-Grote added (unfinished bypass due to Marastan red zoning?)
  Persephone-Marastan-Ffudn deleted (Marastan red zoned)
  Junidy-Towers-Nasemin deleted (marked as Vargr territory)
  Rhylanor-Equus-Ivendo deleted; Rhylanor-Icetina added
  Risek-Dhian-Inthe deleted; Risek-Inthe added
  Farquahar-Thornnastor deleted (due to supposed Trojan Reach losses?)
  Mora-Somem-Gitosy-Rhylanor-Tureded-KKirka-Regina added

The Spinward Marches network is a bit weird.  The Solomani Rim network
looks a lot more rational.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:47:33 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k

The whole thing sounds like overreaction. I asked some old dinosaurs who used
to run power stations what will happen. They said (paraphrasing) that the old
timers who run the plants never trusted the computers in the first place. They
would just bypass them, and run the system without the computers like they
used to do. They said there would be no problem, unless the younger managers
changed the controls so they can't bypass the computers. I personally think
that the only major problems (and they will be major) will be informational
databases. I don't think that the infrastructure will tank, but the more
computer dependent ones will have problems. The only precutions I will take
will be to make sure my stock certificates, and my car ownership title paper
copies are safe in a fireproof box, and that I will make sure that that week's
paycheck is cashed instead of direct deposited. If the bank computer crashes,
I will have cash until it's up and running again....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:04:31 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: High Guard supply rules

Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>>> I'm also thinking food. Is this accounted for somewhere, or are we
>>> assuming hokey ST replicators?
>>
>>FFS2 takes it into account, but only for low tech IMO (and TU).  Requires
>>variously stored foods (refrigerated, low berthed <g>, etc) unless one wants
>>algae vat food or to store livestock and have gardens, etc etc.  This should
>>be limited to Traveller tech level 9 (maybe 10) and down IMO.
>>
>
>Food itself isnt that much of an issue, if you have water recycling. I can
>imagine half a kilo of dried food would be about right, and that means you
>can put many people-months into a m3 of storage.

I assumed that the ship is closed-cycle for water. As for food, an idea
has dawned - stow it in the low berths ;>

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:58:31 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules: supply

Walter Smith wrote:

>Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Point taken. I would suggest that, while the `intensive' maintenance
>schedule might be once a year, there's going to be a lot of preventative
>maintenance happening. I'd also submit that, while higher tech. gear
>tends to have higher availability, better maintainability and better
>reliability than older gear, this is to an extent achieved through large
>stores holdings of line-replaceable units.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Recall how much of the ship is solid metal, or empty space. On a
>jump-5, armor-4 vessel, 60% of the ship is either the innards of a
>fuel tank or crystal-iron hull plates. 

Well, I'd argue that even fuel tanks (and more importantly, fuel
transfer systems) need maintenance. Instead of taking the family car as
an example, consider an air-independant propulsion diesel submarine.
The complexity inherent in the fuel systems can be outragous.

(I'm assuming that a sensible starship wouldn't have the `one big fuel
tank' that could all get lost in one accident).

>The maneuver drives on an Azhanti High Lightning are described as
>"maintenance free" - probably a description from a salesman's
>product literature, rather than the engineering crew's maintenance
>schedule. Still, it may be that Stellar tech level drives have big parts that
>don't wear out much.

Hmm. I don't buy it. If all this gear is maint. free, what do the
engineering crews do all day?

>Note that most battle damage can have the effects reversed by
>damage control, but still needs to be repaired in a shipyard. This
>indicates that whatever they're making repairs with is something
>less than complete replacement units.

Battle damage is very different to component failure. A (c20) system
that fails will usually have one LRU that has failed `randomly', and
using the built-in test it can rapidly be located and replaced. The same
system that has taken damage may either have:

(a) Taken physical impact/fire damage that has affected several LRUs -
possibly so severe that the built-in test doesn't work.

(b) Be irradiated, so that *none* of the semiconductor parts work

(c) Have suffered shock damage, so the LRUs need reseating.

(etc)

Mechanical & chemical engineering systems are, if anything, worse -
since implementing the built-in test is so much harder.

>These make me think that starships can make do with a limited
>amount of storage space, but zero cargo space is just taking it too
>far.
>
>Here's a thought. What if the hull displacement percentages for
>bridge, drives, weapons, etc. include within themselves space for
>spare parts and consumable stores? If that were the case, my
>whole idea for cargo requirements on warships goes out the airlock.

The question then becomes `which components count spares, and which
don't?' I'd quite like a good number of spares for my active sensor
array for my starship; I would probably not bother with sapres for a
radio on a three-hour endurance aircraft with no engineering crew.

>Matt again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I'm also thinking food. Is this accounted for somewhere, or are we
>assuming hokey ST replicators?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Part would be accounted for in the 2tns/person of living space. In my
>HG deck plans I consider some of the space for drives, bridge, etc.
>to be climate-controlled work areas, so that 2tn/person is all for the
>person to eat, sleep, bathe and play in. I would say that some of the
>one percent tonnage per month would be supplements to the closed
>circuit life support system, but am open to the idea of requiring more
>space.

Ok.

>Matt again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Missile armed ships are going to have *big* replenishment requirements,
>too - esp. if they are involved in intensive combat or planetary
>bombardments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I was reading a respondent's mention of 1st edition HG magazines - 
>how they could be up to 50tns per missile bay for planetary
>bombardment purposes. This sounds useful, though I have been
>wondering how much of the bay itself is missile launcher and how
>much is ready stores. A 100tn missile bay isn't a bank of 50 2tn
>vertical launch racks, like some ballistic missile submarine - it's
>more like a torpedo bay IMO. Still, you could be very correct to
>push a missile-armed ship's cargo requirments upwards.

Depends on how much combat endurance you want to give the ship. Your
average trader with a missile turret is probably happy with `one up the
spout, three on the ready rack'. You missile destroyer will want *a lot*
of missiles it you're planning to besiege a planet with it.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:29:42 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:02:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem
In mail you write:
> On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > Exporting metals and minerals won't deplete organics. I doubt that
>> they'll be exporting anything with a high organic content unless
>> they've got *lots* of spare biomass.
>
>   There happens to be oxygen bound into many refined metal compounds, the
> same goes for plastics. Not much of course, but if you're exporting
> millions of tons a year... Let's face it, you won't support an economy of
> several billion people exporting raw materials.
Not much oxygen! And the *ores* from which you extract most metals are
*oxides* of the metal. Metal production will result in a net *increase*
in available oxygen.
*********
heck if all you want is oxy, you can get that from rock. hydrogen and
nitrogen are the problems.




The US tests were in Nevada, and seemed to be ok, but public fears of
anything "nuclear" ended any possibility of civilian uses for a long
time. But the military still has it in reserve if they ever need large
underground storage tanks for oil or water.
>> I figure that most of these places start out as one of three things:
>>
>> 1. Way station.

>> 3. Mining colony. Some sort of mineral deposits were found that some
>>    optimists felt were worth the cost of mining and shipping.
>
Check out places in the real world that started out as way stations.
Centuries later many of them have huge populations.
Mining tends to have the actual mine sites depopulate, but the nearby
"support" areas sometimes prosper on their own.
********************8
The above comment about Nevada sparked this memory:
I used to live in Las Vegas, Nevada

It started off as a Mormon Conony, as a way station on the route to San
Bernadino.
A lead min was opened by them first colonists but soon closed due to
imputities in the metal.

<think of it as a refuling base orbiting a gas giant>

someboady new arrived at the colony from (IIRC) England.  I realised that
the impurities in the metal were in fact silver.

<The way station now supports an active mine>

during the depression several chemical companies relocated to the valley

<chemical exports now>

during WWII the Air force built a pilot training base (Nellis AFB)

<the way station now gets a navy base>

after the war new casinos (the old ones were still there from the mining
days) were opened.

<think of Bugsy Segal as a rep of a shady megacorp. an anything goes resort
planet>

Howard Huges also moved in.

<mega corp. Research Station. in new propulsion tech>

in the early 80s many entertainment and tech companies moved to Las Vegas
allong with Comdex and CES every year.

<now exports entertainment software, movies, and has a very good
engineering school. (Howard R. Hughes College of Engineering)>

in the late 80s on of the two rocket fuel plants for the shuttle (both
located in henderson just south of LV.) blew up

<Zohdanis sabotage factory making jump drives for the imperal navy!!>

some population figures:
1850: less than 100 (droping to less than 10 for a while)
1890: a couple of thousand (not including miners)
1960: about 100,000
1980: about 800,000
now: just under 1,600,000 in the valley (over 900,000 in Las Vegas itself)
over 150,000 of these are Mormon.

<to meet theses ame rates of growth, a pop A world (in 1115 the GT era) of
say 1,500,000,000
would have been pop 9 twenty years ago (in 1095 the CT era)
pop 8 40 years ago (in 1075)
pop 6 a hundred years ago
pop 5 as the inital colony (in 965) dropping to pop 4 after about 10 years
later


I am sure that there are more examples out there....inhospitable, but still
fast growing...

Fairbanks AK is about 200,000 if you include the army and airforce bases
(and nearby towns)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:46:20 -0600
From: Dave Seagraves <daveseag@io.com>
Subject: RE: colonising hellholes

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2829.259F0020
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

   You've got it right -- sugars are definitely right-handed.  Someone =
makes a stuff called "L-sugar."  It doesn't make you fat because the =
body doesn't break it down -- it just passes right through you.  I =
actually bought a case of fruit punch that was made with it.  It tasted =
just like the real thing.

Dave Seagraves
Seagraves Computers   Austin, TX   1 (512) 255-2760   daveseag@io.com



>> Yeah, for one thing, there's a 50% chance that the amino acids have =
the
>> wrong handedness. And the same goes for sugars. As I recall Earth has
>> right-handed amino acids and left-handed sugars, but I may have that
>> backwards.=20

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2829.259F0020
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2829.259F0020--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:05:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Looking for Solomani&Aslan

Hi all.  Anyone know where I can buy/beg/borrow a copy of DGP's "Solomani
and Aslan"?  You can reply to me personally at:
charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca or to the list if you prefer...

Thanks,
Charles.

- ---------
IMTU tc+ tm tn- t4- tg+ tt ru-- ge jt au+ st+ pi he(-) as+ va+ so- 0501
Charles Collin \\ McGill Psychology \\ http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl
Ph: (514) 398-6151 \\ FAX: (514) 398-4896 \\  charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:35:04 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules

...
>the members for _FOOD_.  Imagine, a roasted clone of yourself lying on 
>an alien family's table.  
>
>EEWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...
>>greatly limits variety ("Beef again?")).  Being a gearhead, i'll 

  Or, "Raoul _again_?"...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:43:06 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>, Re: Transporting fuel insystem
> > >Let's face it, you won't support an economy of
> > >several billion people exporting raw materials.
> > 
> > I don't know that you _can't_ do that.  But if you have that
> > many people, there are going to be some left over to start
> > making things (rather than having them imported), fixing
> > thing, and doing things for other people.  Thus industrial
> > and service sectors will develop naturally.  If you already
> > have a market of several billion, it is that big a step to
> > exporting those goods and services....
> 
> My take on it is kinda strange.  Sure, there will be plenty of 
> good bucks to be made exporting the raw materials.  There'll even be
> some more good bucks to be made exporting semirefined materials.  There
> are also secondary sources of exports as well.  Things like techniques
> and tools developed on that world that will work someplace else,
> particularly if the tools and teechniques are a couple TLs abouve the
> enduser's TL.

> I can see this happening.

 So can I. (In fact I just used a vac world in my game that used to be
pop9, now down to pop8 due to war damage.) My greatest problem with this
whole issue is that there are just too damn many of these on the maps to
conveniently explain away. (Duh... guess I should have said this to begin
with?)

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:55:14 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> There's a lot more to a viable mining community than just running the mines.  
> Think boomtowns in the old American West during the Gold Rush.  Miners need to 
> eat, and if they're not going to be stuck buying instaheats off a Company 
> boat, this means somebody's got to run the hydroponics and carniculture 
> systems, *and* the food processing centers *and* the food distribution systems 
> *and* waste management *and* atmospheric control.  Just a rough WASG, I'd say 
> you'd need 5 support people in the background to put one miner in the mines, 
> minimum.  You want to be the guy who's making and selling the pans to the gold 
> miners.  And what do they do for recreation?  If you don't keep them busy in 
> their offshift time, they'll get stircrazy and blood will fill the air 
> filters.  Not good.  So you'll need security people and administrators to try 
> to keep the stupidity to a minimum.  And entertainment workers (not 
> necessarily prostitutes, mind you!) to keep the offshift workers busy.
> 
> Personally, I don't see *ANY* 'minimum wage jobs' in a mining colony.

  Yes, indeed. I never assumed all the workers would be miners, but at
least in a first stage colony everyone would need to be basically familiar
with vacuum/zero-G operations. This certainly would hitch up the paycheck
of even a lowly cook (heh, another money-hole). The point here is, that in
a society where vast majority of populance never leave their homewrlds,
not evreryone will have these skills, and many people won't even wish to
learn them, even if they are married to a vac-op:s specialist. (Space can
be a scary place.)  

> You *DON'T* want the next generation of miners and 
> support people to be absolute uneducated idiots when you're working under 
> hostile environments.  And the current crop of contract miners would *insist* 
> on decent education for the rugrats before signing on.  After all, it's not 
> like the Company is their last chance to make a buck...
> 

  Just so. I'm just trying to figure out if it would't be cheaper to ship
in bulk freighter loads of off-world term workers, than try to build an
entire infrastructure for basic education and higher learning from
scratch.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:55:06 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: GT Aliens, v.2

At 02:08 pm 12/14/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>  From what Marc has repeatedly posted, that is not quite true. You
>> cannot use verbatim from any DGP materials. However, the license
>> under which DGP produced Traveller materials *explicitly* allowed
GDW
>> (and now Marc) to reuse any of the ideas they choose. The
concepts,
>> ideas and backgrounds in the DGP materials can be used; you just
>> can't lift the text verbatim and reprint it.
>> - -- Dave Golden
>
>What happens then to all the Trokh words in DGP S&A? What happens to
>all the clan names, of those in the Tlaukhu? Changing names would be
>a major change in canon, right? Does DGP own thos clan names that did 
>not appear in other sources?

	You'll have to query a lawyer and look at the original contract to
be sure. My understanding is that names, words, characters, races,
etc. are part of the "idea" to which Far Future Enterprises has
access. The specific text in which they're presented is copyrighted.
Thus, FFE could use the Tlaukhu as described in Cats & Rats. FFE
could not use verbatim the paragraph from Cats & Rats describing the
Tlaukhu. 
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:01:50 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

 
> I'd say it comes off as exactly the sort of radiation it would release
> at normal decay rates. Just faster. That means mostly alpha and beta
> radiation, with the occasional neutron and gamma. The alphas and betas
> are very short ranged and will get absorbed by surrounding materials or
> by a few yards of air. Their energy will wind up as heat.

  Based on what? I thought it was already argeed none us has the faintest
clue of how these things work. Or maybe you know something the rest of us
don't? (Team blue! Team blue! Another Vilani agent here.)

> So after a slow start (to check for enexpected fissionables) I'd say
> that you'd turn up the decay rate until the site is producing heat at
> the max rate you are willing to allow. 
> 
> You don't want it to melt (usually). And you don't want the heat to
> create strong uprafts which might carry away contaminated dust. You
> also want to avoid steam explosions in the ground. And avoid
> radioactive steam. 
> 

  Sounds rasonable enough. All this takes some time and effot though,
right? That was my main point.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:07:17 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?

At 09:15 am 12/14/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Web Space! I Need More Web Space!  Or at least I _will_, if
everything I want to implement in Freelance Traveller does in fact
come to pass...
>
>I'm not asking for donations from anyone on the list, as Freelance
Traveller now has some pretty significant technical requirements,
which cause it to be a hardship to rebuild to avoid (most
significantly, many of the future ideas are predicated on the
existence of the Microsoft FrontPage Server extensions).  I'm looking
at the "free" services, some of which _do_ offer what I need.
>
>I have a few possibilities.  One requires that I maintain a (paid
third-party) banner ad at the top and bottom of every page.  

	Least offensive

>One adds a "watermark" to my page (and requires that I maintain
their banner).  

	Not too bad, but it sometimes obscures the bottom of the page. If
there's enough blank space I can scroll the bottom up to clear the
watermark, even better than the previous.

>One creates a "pop-up" window every time a member page on their
server is accessed, with advertising that they choose.

	I categorically refuse to access such a site, as the pop-up is
incredibly annoying every time I go back to the top page.

>One creates a pop-up only on first entry to a particular member web
site, again with advertising that they choose.  

	Second-worst, as I despise sites that pop up new windows.
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:05:43 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

 
> CPAWS (electron beams in this case) do *not* induce radioactivity!
> If they did, every TV set, computer monitor, and other CRT would have
> to be treated as nuclear waste.
> 
> Radiation <> Radioactivity
> 
> The high energy particle impacts will create X-rays or gamma rays. They
> *won't* make the target radioactive. So anyone in the target area will
> get irradiated. But when the beam is turned off, there will be *no*
> radiation present.

  Duh? Traveller CPAW:s use protons or light nuclei. The last time I
checked the spallation caused by suprrelativistic protons colliding with
heavy nuclei _does_ indeed produce radioactive elements.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1275
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 15 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1276



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: colonising hellholes
Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
re: Nuclear Dampeners
Re: colonising hellholes
Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: colonising hellholes 
Re: OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?
Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: High Guard optional rules
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
re: colonizing hellholes
Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Colonising hellholes
re:1st edition HG magazines
Re: Colonising hellholes 
Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
Low Berth Lethality (was: Re: Colonising hellholes)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:14:39 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> The problem is that you have to not merely *sterilize* the soil, but
> you have to *remove* the "wrong handed" chemicals, as they are *worse*
> than useless. 

 How, exactly. The usual theory seems to be this stuff doesnt inr'teract
with Terran metabolisms at all.

 
> "Sambquh, remember those stupid aliens who tried to take away our land?"
> 
> For example, consider what happens to a proto-colony if the pissed off
> natives stampede the local equivalent of a pre-1800 buffalo herd over
> the colony site? (Hint: these herds were *miles* across and miles long).

  How are the natives going to do this, if they are all dead by the time
the colonists arrive?

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:24:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

Eppu Tuominen writes:
> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > I'd say it comes off as exactly the sort of radiation it would release
> 
>   Based on what? I thought it was already argeed none us has the faintest
> clue of how these things work. Or maybe you know something the rest of us
> don't? (Team blue! Team blue! Another Vilani agent here.)

Based on occam's razor.  Pending any evidence it _doesn't_ decay in a normal
fashion, assume it does.  In any case, most neutron-activated radioactive
materials have fairly short halflives, so by the time you've cooked off the
heavy radioactive elements you've probably caused any secondary radioactivity
from neutron emission to be erased too.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:31:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

Eppu Tuominen writes:

>   Duh? Traveller CPAW:s use protons or light nuclei. The last time I
> checked the spallation caused by suprrelativistic protons colliding with
> heavy nuclei _does_ indeed produce radioactive elements.

Well, its unclear what the per-particle energy for traveller weapons-grade PAWs
actually is, so its possible (in fact, given that meson guns can be
constructed, relatively likely) that spinal particle beams can generate some
secondary radioactivity.  However, a CPAW designed for use in an atmosphere
needs relatively high beam current and thus a fairly low per-particle energy
(probably under 5 MeV -- which isn't 'super-relativistic', its < 10% of c, low
enough that relativistic effects can mostly be ignored).  Such particles
_don't_ create radioactive elements.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:22:40 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Nuclear Dampeners

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  Sounds rasonable enough. All this takes some time and effot though,
right? That was my main point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Except that the time and effort would be orders of magnitude less
than the time and effort we 20th century earthers associate with
cleanup of radioactive contamination. Instead of "Chernobyl" or
"Three Mile Island", think "having the outside of my office building
sandblasted".

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:52:49 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

- ----------
> From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: colonising hellholes
> Date: Wednesday, 16 December 1998 6:14
> 
> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > The problem is that you have to not merely *sterilize* the soil, but
> > you have to *remove* the "wrong handed" chemicals, as they are *worse*
> > than useless. 
> 
>  How, exactly. The usual theory seems to be this stuff doesnt inr'teract
> with Terran metabolisms at all.
> 

They lock up useful nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen, for starters.  

They could also act as non-functional substitutes for compounds present in
Terran biologies, kind of like the way carbon monoxide "mimics" oxygen in
the blood stream.  There are also RW cases of compounds that simulate the
effects of hormones like oestrogen.

Another problem is that you have to not merely sterilize the soil, but the
air and water as well.  Otherwise the soil will very quickly become
contaminated again.

The key aspect of dealing with alien life is that "life" is primarily
unicellular, or worse.  At least, that's the case on Earth.  We live in the
"Age of Bacteria", just as much as the dinosaurs did.

Life is persistent.  Displacing a planetary microbiology is a much harder
business than shooting tigers.  I suspect, in most cases, what occurs is a
kind of "draw", where terrestrial and alien biologies coexist.  Of course
this coexistence will be unstable...

In other words, the bugs you have to worry about are the ones you can't
see.

It's a shame they're less fun than the big ones.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:35:29 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Well, its unclear what the per-particle energy for traveller weapons-grade PAWs
> actually is, so its possible (in fact, given that meson guns can be
> constructed, relatively likely) that spinal particle beams can generate some
> secondary radioactivity.  However, a CPAW designed for use in an atmosphere
> needs relatively high beam current and thus a fairly low per-particle energy
> (probably under 5 MeV -- which isn't 'super-relativistic', its < 10% of c, low
> enough that relativistic effects can mostly be ignored).  Such particles
> _don't_ create radioactive elements.

  Now this brings up another question.

How fast is a Particle beam? We all run around asuming C, but is that realistic?

Evyn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:57:51 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes 

> > > The problem is that you have to not merely *sterilize* the soil, but
> > > you have to *remove* the "wrong handed" chemicals, as they are *worse*
> > > than useless. 
> > 
> >  How, exactly. The usual theory seems to be this stuff doesnt inr'teract
> > with Terran metabolisms at all.
> > 
> 
> They lock up useful nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen, for starters.  

They should get unbound by 'conventional' microorganisms, though, right?  I 
thought I remembered reading someplace that at the lowest levels of the food 
chain, levo and dextro sugars & proteins are interchangable.  Any 
microbiologists around to set the record straight?

If this *is* the case, you merely have to introduce the proper lower level 
microbes and fungi to disassemble the wrong handed sugars and proteins and put 
them back into the environment as components.  If terrestrial organisms can 
then get a jumpstart under those conditions, they should outcompete the local 
critters.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:59:25 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 09:15 am 12/14/98 EDT, you wrote:
> >Web Space! I Need More Web Space!  Or at least I _will_, if
> everything I want to implement in Freelance Traveller does in fact
> come to pass...
> >
> >I'm not asking for donations from anyone on the list, as Freelance
> Traveller now has some pretty significant technical requirements,
> which cause it to be a hardship to rebuild to avoid (most
> significantly, many of the future ideas are predicated on the
> existence of the Microsoft FrontPage Server extensions).  I'm looking
> at the "free" services, some of which _do_ offer what I need.
> >
> >I have a few possibilities.  One requires that I maintain a (paid
> third-party) banner ad at the top and bottom of every page.
> 
>         Least offensive
> 
> >One adds a "watermark" to my page (and requires that I maintain
> their banner).
> 
>         Not too bad, but it sometimes obscures the bottom of the page. If
> there's enough blank space I can scroll the bottom up to clear the
> watermark, even better than the previous.
> 

From a GeoCities news e-mail I received earlier today (about the
watermark):

The new Watermark also features an animated image that fades from 
the word "GeoCities" to our new, smaller "g" logo.

This change isn't in place yet, but I'll keep you posted.  (BTW, since I
have the ad banner at the top of my page, I don't cause those annoying
"pop-up windows.")

> >One creates a "pop-up" window every time a member page on their
> server is accessed, with advertising that they choose.
> 
>         I categorically refuse to access such a site, as the pop-up is
> incredibly annoying every time I go back to the top page.
> 
> >One creates a pop-up only on first entry to a particular member web
> site, again with advertising that they choose.
> 
>         Second-worst, as I despise sites that pop up new windows.

ObTrav:  Are there shipyards that offer discounts or other incentives
for purchasers who set aside part of their chameleon surface for some
sort of ad for the shipyard?  (Not as far-fetched as it sounds.  The
dealer from whom I recently purchased a used truck will give me periodic
free oil changes, as long as I keep the dealership's ad plate on the
front of my truck, and the ad sticker on the rear.)

> -- Dave Golden
> -- House in Colorado Springs for sale!
> -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:05:50 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

 
> What if those "unfriendly natives" are the caretakers for the Sector
> Duke's estate (the planet)? :-)

  This is one possibility I also considered. Can be used to explain a
couple of dozen worlds. What about the rest? There are at least hundreds
of ignored planets that canonically shopuld be prime colony material.
(IMTU most of them certainly aren't.)


> Huh? Last time I checked, low berths had a 10% chance of killing you.
> Period. 

  Excuse me? I'm starting to wonder if we're even talking about the same
game here. Check TD #21 pp. 40-45. (Actually my earlier post had a slight
memory error. It should have read: TL-11+ low berths are utterly safe.) 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:15:44 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: High Guard optional rules

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> ...
> >the members for _FOOD_.  Imagine, a roasted clone of yourself lying on
> >an alien family's table.
> >
> >EEWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...
> >>greatly limits variety ("Beef again?")).  Being a gearhead, i'll
> 
>   Or, "Raoul _again_?"...

Either that, or "Meat Loaf on turkey night?"  (RHPS reference, St. Louis
audiences, circa 1980)

Anyone for the Twilight Zone episode, "To Serve Man"?

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:25:55 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

 
> *Nobody* with money or the intelligence required to aquire that
> training you value is going to ride in a low berth except in an
> emergency. A 10% chance of death each time means that there's only an
> 81% chance of surviving the round trip. And only a 35% chance of
> lasting through a 5 year term with a round trip each year.

  See my previous post.
 
> What makes you think that people with the required skills (which will
> be about as common as various types of construction worker skills here
> on earth) will be married to that sort of person?

  Again I wonder if we're talking about the same universe. My
understanding was that the majority of imperial citizens never leave the
surface of their homeworld. Only the ones that do would be likely to
possess required levels of vacuum-op skills, and only a fraction of these
would be qualified to work on building/expanding/maintaining a first stage
mining colony.
  A further question: Is it your opinion that people never/rarely marry
outside their professional circle and social class. (Now I'm starting to
wonder if we even _live_ in the same universe.)
  
 > Sending kids off to boarding schools is far from uncommon.

  And how many of them are coming back? The population growth curve just
took a major hit.

> BTW, I'd say that a good analog for this sort of thing is what went on
> in Alaska when they were building the big oil pipeline and drilling the
> wells on the North Slope.
> 
> People with families didn't go. Instead you had young men getting high
> pay, and *not* taking vacations. They'd get time off (mandatory as I
> recall), but they pretty much stuck to the theaters and whorehouses. 
> 
> And when they *were* working, they worked long hours. 

  This is the picture I was proposing too. One thing these people won't be
doing with a lifestyle like this is starting families and reproducing.
(With people having permiscuous relationships left and right, a company
policy of mandatory contraceptives would be pretty much a given.) 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:37:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

Evyn MacDude writes:
 
> How fast is a Particle beam? We all run around asuming C, but is that
> realistic? 

Shrug.  A realistic particle beam weapon system with current technology or
slightly above probably wouldn't be more than a few million volts, and maybe
10% of c.  Given that relativistic meson accelerators can be constructed, it is
reasonable to assume that relativistic PAWs can be constructed as well (120
million volts for 0.5 c; 1.2 billion volts for 0.9c), though in this case its
somewhat unclear why armor is relevant against PAWs, collision byproducts
(including uncharged mesons and pions) should be able to go through quite a bit
of armor without too much difficulty.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:02:18 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

>> Huh? Last time I checked, low berths had a 10% chance of killing you.
>> Period.
>
>  Excuse me? I'm starting to wonder if we're even talking about the same
>game here. Check TD #21 pp. 40-45. (Actually my earlier post had a slight
>memory error. It should have read: TL-11+ low berths are utterly safe.)


There have been 3 versions of Traveller that have been published since TD#21
(assuming, of course, that TD stands for The Dragon), all of which reinforce
the fatality rate for low berth travel.  I tend to view that as more
definitive.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:54:36 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

 
> You forget that the blast effects are mostly due to absorption of
> x-rays from the nuclear reaction. The rock absorbs these and converts
> into high temp plasma.

  And the flux density of this radiation also falls off relative to second
power of distance. Back to my earlier point.

> In any case, they have excavvated large underground chambers using
> nukes. I don't have the references handy. 

  Could you at least give me some rough idea of where to start digging.
(Magazine, book, scientific/technical report?)

>The walls are stable because
> it *doesn't* create the cracks you are thinking. Or rather, such cracks
> as *are* generated, result in the rock being seperated from the wall
> *by* the gases.

 So where _does_ all that high pressure gas go?

> And in any case, you *would* want to line the resulting cavity with
> *something* (concrete, fused rock, whatever) to ensure that it was
> sealed properly and stabilized in case of undetected fissures in the
> rock. 

  No doubt of that in any case. So add the cost of lining 4500 km^3 of
caves with support structures to the bill. Now we're _really_ starting to
get the figures up.

> First, check out the cost of excavating a similar sized cavity (say 500
> meters diameter and a couple of km high) used normal excavation
> methods. Nukes *are* cheaper.

 Is that .5km diam. couple of km high(=2.5 km?) for the entire 5 billion?  
(0.39m^3/person, my friend is just about that volume crouched up, and
she's small) I don't think so. (Moving around would be a bit difficult,
let alone breathing since there's no room for life support.) 
  Anyway, nukes certainly are cheaper,but that doesn't mean they're cheap.

> Third, you can create new cavities quite close to older ones. They did
> tests on this. Heck, you can detonate then such that the cavities
> overlap. Though that's rather tricky.

 Blasting nukes with people in the next cavern? Now this is one reference
I would _really_ like to see.

> Check out places in the real world that started out as way stations.
> Centuries later many of them have huge populations. 

  Yeah, and many others are stone dead. Besides, the terrestrial examples
still have one big bonus. It's called air.

> Mining tends to have the actual mine sites depopulate, but the nearby
> "support" areas sometimes prosper on their own. 

  Wouldnt the "nearby support area" in this case possibly be the garden
world one jump away?

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:00:15 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: re: colonizing hellholes

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> I think the cost/benefit analysis would make such behaviour on the
> part of a Megacorp rare. Behaviour that (if caught) would get you a
> lawsuit or a fine, or even a prison term for one of your subsector
> managers, can be risk-analyzed with a possible predicted benefit
> that would lead a corp manager to try it. Behaviour that, if caught,
> would cause the ruin of your entire multi-gigacredit operation would
> get a manager cashiered for even mentioning it, even if the chance of
> getting caught was less than 1% - no one-op reward is worth that kind
> of risk exposure.

  With a dozen or so middlemen the risk of discovery drops rapidly. And
deniability also works _inside_ the corporation. If the instigator of the
whole sordid affair is a subsector manager (maybe after a friendly 
unrecorded chat with the CEO) it's easy to throw him to the wolves if the
whole thing blows up in your face. 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:02:12 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k

Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:06:09 -0800, "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
>Subject: Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k

>Yah and I remember seeing a news story saying that the RCMP was not allowing
>any of it's members book holidays fro the last part of 1999 and the first 3
>months
>of 2000 also.

Yeah, but I heard that they are processing a lot of applications
for leave in early 1900....

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:05:33 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com wrote:

 
> <to meet theses ame rates of growth, a pop A world (in 1115 the GT era) of
> say 1,500,000,000
> would have been pop 9 twenty years ago (in 1095 the CT era)
> pop 8 40 years ago (in 1075)
> pop 6 a hundred years ago
> pop 5 as the inital colony (in 965) dropping to pop 4 after about 10 years
> later
 
 This would be the best case scenario. (The ones that got _very_ lucky.)

> I am sure that there are more examples out there....inhospitable, but still
> fast growing...
> 
  And many more that died quietly, and were forgotten.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:13:25 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Evyn MacDude writes:
>  
> > How fast is a Particle beam? We all run around asuming C, but is that
> > realistic? 
> 
> Shrug.  A realistic particle beam weapon system with current technology or
> slightly above probably wouldn't be more than a few million volts, and maybe
> 10% of c.  Given that relativistic meson accelerators can be constructed, it is
> reasonable to assume that relativistic PAWs can be constructed as well (120
> million volts for 0.5 c; 1.2 billion volts for 0.9c), though in this case its
> somewhat unclear why armor is relevant against PAWs, collision byproducts
> (including uncharged mesons and pions) should be able to go through quite a bit
> of armor without too much difficulty.
> 
  Indeed, but the spallation shower would not be focused anymore. The
radiation can still do major harm, but this aspect _is_ adressed in
Brilliant Lances/MT/HG. At least GURPS space covers effects of PAW induced
radiation on ship personell.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:18:20 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Douglas Glatz wrote:

> There have been 3 versions of Traveller that have been published since TD#21
> (assuming, of course, that TD stands for The Dragon), all of which reinforce
> the fatality rate for low berth travel.  I tend to view that as more
> definitive.
> 
  It stands for _Traveller's Digest_. I thought those were pretty much
invariably considered canon. BTW _where_ exactly does it say in MT or TNE
that low berths kill 10% (or any%) of their users? 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:29:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:1st edition HG magazines

Walt Smith wrote:

>I was reading a respondent's mention of 1st edition HG magazines -
>how they could be up to 50tns per missile bay for planetary
>bombardment purposes. This sounds useful, though I have been
>wondering how much of the bay itself is missile launcher and how
>much is ready stores. A 100tn missile bay isn't a bank of 50 2tn
>vertical launch racks, like some ballistic missile submarine - it's
>more like a torpedo bay IMO. Still, you could be very correct to
>push a missile-armed ship's cargo requirments upwards.

I always envisaged them as being like the vertical launch boxes seen on the
Seawolf magazine on the UK's Type 23(?) Duke of....... class frigates. I
think some of the old Soviet Navy had a similar arrangement. Sort of a bank
of missiles with loading gear and a magazine below.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:31:32 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes 

> >> Huh? Last time I checked, low berths had a 10% chance of killing you.
> >> Period.
> >
> >  Excuse me? I'm starting to wonder if we're even talking about the same
> >game here. Check TD #21 pp. 40-45. (Actually my earlier post had a slight
> >memory error. It should have read: TL-11+ low berths are utterly safe.)
> 
> 
> There have been 3 versions of Traveller that have been published since TD#21
> (assuming, of course, that TD stands for The Dragon), all of which reinforce
> the fatality rate for low berth travel.  I tend to view that as more
> definitive.

I think he means Traveller's Digest, a magazine that's *sorely* missed...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:28:03 -0500
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

> TD#21 (assuming, of course, that TD stands for The Dragon)

TD = Traveller's Digest (Digest Group Publications)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:30:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

Eppu Tuominen writes:

>   Indeed, but the spallation shower would not be focused anymore. The
> radiation can still do major harm, but this aspect _is_ adressed in
> Brilliant Lances/MT/HG. At least GURPS space covers effects of PAW induced
> radiation on ship personell.

Yah, but if your goal is to kill off the crew with radiation sickness you don't
really _want_ focus, since it takes 4-5 orders of magnitude more energy to
destroy the frame than to cook the crew.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:47:53 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Low Berth Lethality (was: Re: Colonising hellholes)

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> > There have been 3 versions of Traveller that have been published since TD#21
> > (assuming, of course, that TD stands for The Dragon), all of which reinforce
> > the fatality rate for low berth travel.  I tend to view that as more
> > definitive.
> >
>   It stands for _Traveller's Digest_. I thought those were pretty much
> invariably considered canon. BTW _where_ exactly does it say in MT or TNE
> that low berths kill 10% (or any%) of their users?
> 
I own neither MT nor TNE, but T4, page 115, indicates that the survival
roll for a low berth passenger is 9- (DMs:  +1 for Medic 2+ attending,
- -1 for End 6-).  These percentages match those from CT Book 2 (page 2). 
Assuming that any ship transporting low passengers has a Medic 2+, this
works out to 3/36 [1/12] chance of death, before modification for low
passenger Endurance.  10% fatality sounds about right (this is, BTW, one
reason why I don't design civilian ships with regular low berths).

OTOH, FF&S2 seems to indicate that TL 11+ low berths are generally safe
(page 78).

YMMV. 

> -------------
> Eppu Tuominen
> eptitu@utu.fi
> -------------

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1276
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 16 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1277



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Colonising hellholes
re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Colonizing Hellholes
Housekeeping Maintenance (Was High Guard optional)
Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?
Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Traveller Web site
Re: Traveller Web site 
Re: colonising hellholes
Tunnelling & Nukes (was Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Colonizing hellholes
Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k
re: Colonizing Hellholes
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: Shuttle (was Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class...) etc 
Re: X-Boat Routes
Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
Re: Colonizing hellholes
Re: Tunnelling & Nukes (was Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:15:00 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

[smack]  of course - all I could think of was the Traveller Chronicles...

ahem...

That still leaves *two* versions...  ;)

I don't know exactly where it would be stated in MT or TNE, I don't carry my
*entire* library with me (although, once the CD comes out...), but in T4
it's on page 115 (book A) under the section titles 'Low Passage'.

"Roll 9- for each passenger when hi is revived..." and "...+1 DM for
attending medic of expertise 2 or better..."  which means that with a
medic-2 or better, the passenger survives on a 10 or less.  11 or 12, well
you check the low lottery to see who wins.  The last time I checked a stat
chart, 11 or 12 on 2 dice was 3 chances in 36 or roughly 12%.

Now, while I don't have my TNE or MT books with me, I'd be willing to bet
dollars to donuts that there is equivalent passages in both of those
editions.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Paul Schirf <pc@perkworks.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes


>
>> TD#21 (assuming, of course, that TD stands for The Dragon)
>
>TD = Traveller's Digest (Digest Group Publications)
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:24:31 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Transporting fuel insystem

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 This would be the best case scenario. (The ones that got _very_ lucky.)

> I am sure that there are more examples out there....inhospitable, but still
> fast growing...
> 
  And many more that died quietly, and were forgotten.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you'll look at the map again, you'll notice there are many inhospitable
worlds with negligible populations - only a few thousand (or hundred,
or even dozen) people on them. These may be worlds that never got
started, or may be worlds that "died quietly".

This is a thread we've seen before on TML - a problem with the
subsector random generation system.

The original Traveller random star system generation system didn't
link population to living conditions. Your chances of having a population
in the billions had nothing to do with how quickly your vac suit
would dissolve in the local atmosphere.

The best alternative generation system I've seen yet is Jim Vassilakos'
_Galactic_, but even Jim's "homebrew" method tends to make vanilla
subsectors - every nice planet is populated to the gills, every planet
even moderately difficult to live on is deserted. Something more in
the middle, between the two extremes would suit me better - perhaps
just like Jim's, but with a bit of a tweak to the modifiers he uses for
whether people will live somewhere or not.

The Traveller Imperium is a culture that can put 100,000 people on
a starship - I'm sure they could put a couple hundred million on
a planet, no matter how nasty it was. Why would they? That (with
some referee imagination) is where the universe details (and plot
hooks) come from.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:00:02 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Colonizing Hellholes

Eppu Tuominen wrote:

>All of these have the same solution, wipe out the local
>ecosphere as you expand your own. Incopatability works both
>ways. The real problem here might be the green groups and other
"regressionist weenies" (a megacorp view, not mine) whining
>about humans meddling with alien biospheres.

And Michael Vaillancourt replied:

>If our colonists are that concerned about it, put a dome over
>the field and go hydroponics....  it means that the Terran
>microbes and whatnot would be less likely do something
>unpleasant with the local enviroment, and the pest/predators
>issue goes away.  In fact, I think initial surface colonies are
>going to be less like a 1800's Wild-west strip-town than they
>will be like an 1100's English Baronial castle;  everything
>important to survival inside a barrier wall/ dome of some kind
>until the colonists get a better idea of how much the Scout
>survey missed.

   CJ Cherrhy's "Cyteen" includes some valuable ideas on
terraforming. Wiping out local ecosystems is not a short term project if
the biosphere is fullof contaminants (planets are BIG places, on a human
scale) and your colonists could easily be living inside domes for a few
thousand years to come. 
   It's not something you want to do casually, either, because you never
know when some rare alien life form has very *valuable* properties, or
what's going to happen to it when you import terrestrial organisms. Just
watch the unintended consequences of playing with terrestrial ecosystems.
   Anybody tired of roaming the galaxy? Sit down on some planet for awhile
and help out with the local ecological survey. (Imperial scouts are only
around for a year or so at best...how well are they going to learn the
ecology in that time?) Get to know all the local beasties, up close and
personal. Find out which ones prefer to eat what and then see what happens
when you include people (your party, for instance) in the mix.
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:01:25 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Housekeeping Maintenance (Was High Guard optional)

Matt Clonfero wrote:

>Point taken. I would suggest that, while the `intensive'
>maintenance schedule might be once a year, there's going to be a
>lot of preventative maintenance happening. I'd also submit that,
>while higher tech. gear tends to have higher availability,
>better maintainability and better reliability than older gear,
>this is to an extent achieved through large stores holdings of
>line-replaceable units.

   This connects to a point I was about to bring up anyway,
connected with normal small starship operation. I agree entirely
about the "housekeeping" type of maintenance. I'd see moderate to
major repairs as going in the annual maintenance, but minor
repairs and routine maintenance (Equivalent to changing light
bulbs, scrubbing the toilet, checking the oil) should be done all
the time. A certain amount of parts and supplies should be kept
on board for the purpose, though space for these would be
included in the appropriate area (engineering supplies and
equipment)
   This is not discussed as one of the routine starship costs,
but IMO it ought to be.  I also dislike the way that the basic
rules allocate life support costs only to occupied living
quarters or low berths. It's also been mentioned by some that the
"life support" costs for starships seem too high.
   It seems to me that some 50% of what is allocated to occupied
staterooms as "life support cost" should instead be "housekeeping
and routine maintenance" and spread out over the entire ship.
This corresponds to a human body's "basal metabolism" or having
the life support on "idle" for most areas of the ship. The
remainer is allocated to "active" life support and is affected by
the activities of live bodies. Even the lion's share of the life
support costs would consist of costs associated with routine
maintenance, such as repairing of seals or leaks, replacement of
leakage, filter and scrubber replacement or recharge, cleaning,
and so forth.

>I'm also thinking food. Is this accounted for somewhere, or are
>we assuming hokey ST replicators?

FF&S2 discusses levels of life support. Those appropriate to
starships include:
   Standard: Light, thermal control, closed loop water and semi-
closed air. (2 week duration) Food is separate, Solid wastes not
recycled. (U.S. Space shuttle is roughly this type)
   Extended. Light, thermal control, closed loop water and air;
Food is a carried consumable; "solid" wastes are dried and
compressed. (US Submarines & Space station are roughly this type)
   Endurance. Closed loop water, air, and food. Appropriate for
space stations and generation ships or the equivalent.

   For the sake of simplicity I would think you could consider
the cost of rations along with life support costs and storage
space along with either living quarters or life support.
   Alternatively, you could also consider it separately and
calculate required weight, volume, and cost if you want to pay
more attention to logistics.

 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:27:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners (was re Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>> I'd say it comes off as exactly the sort of radiation it would release
>> at normal decay rates. Just faster. That means mostly alpha and beta
>> radiation, with the occasional neutron and gamma. The alphas and betas
>> are very short ranged and will get absorbed by surrounding materials or
>> by a few yards of air. Their energy will wind up as heat.
>
>   Based on what? I thought it was already argeed none us has the faintest
> clue of how these things work. Or maybe you know something the rest of us
> don't? (Team blue! Team blue! Another Vilani agent here.)

I made an assumption (the first two sentences in the paragraph you
quoted). Given that assumption, the rest follows logically from the
laws of physics. 

>> So after a slow start (to check for enexpected fissionables) I'd say
>> that you'd turn up the decay rate until the site is producing heat at
>> the max rate you are willing to allow. 
>> 
>> You don't want it to melt (usually). And you don't want the heat to
>> create strong uprafts which might carry away contaminated dust. You
>> also want to avoid steam explosions in the ground. And avoid
>> radioactive steam. 
>> 
>
>   Sounds rasonable enough. All this takes some time and effot though,
> right? That was my main point.
>
> -------------
> Eppu Tuominen
> eptitu@utu.fi
> -------------
>
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:30:24 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: OT: [Free Web Pages] What's More Annoying?

All of them are hideous.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:46:47 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

At 02:35 PM 15/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>> Well, its unclear what the per-particle energy for traveller
weapons-grade PAWs
>> actually is, so its possible (in fact, given that meson guns can be
>> constructed, relatively likely) that spinal particle beams can generate some
>> secondary radioactivity.  However, a CPAW designed for use in an atmosphere
>> needs relatively high beam current and thus a fairly low per-particle energy
>> (probably under 5 MeV -- which isn't 'super-relativistic', its < 10% of
c, low
>> enough that relativistic effects can mostly be ignored).  Such particles
>> _don't_ create radioactive elements.
>
>  Now this brings up another question.
>
>How fast is a Particle beam? We all run around asuming C, but is that
realistic?
>
>Evyn
>
        Fast enough that the beam can cross 50,000km in 1000sec...  So, at
least 50km per sec...  Now that is a *silly* minimum calculation, but it is
the absolute minimum.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:00:10 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Traveller Web site

Dear Folks -

A while ago, Joseph Kimball asked why I gave his site a three-star rating.
Since I have never really explained to _anyone_ how I come up with the
ratings, I thought I might try to change that...

I do not have a written-down grading system. This means that all "ratings"
reflect my personal bias and should only ever be taken with a few large
grains of salt. I just try to get a handle on the "look-and-feel" of a
site, its volume (sheer amount of material) and scope (coverage of multiple
incarnations of Traveller).

Here are some of my reasonings:

- - some things I ignore, such as links pages - everyone has those - or
sections which are named but are empty (eg. logistics at Leonidae).

- - I am a sucker for deckplan and artwork sites. I was always the map-maker
in our AD&D games. ;-)

- - the 1-star and 2-stars may only have one thing on them. Links-only
probably get just one star (see previous point), but I include them because
they are still Traveller - no point in being picky about what "is" and
"isn't". Some sites, like Jagwire, I have to re-review. Loren's page is
really part of the SJG site but deserves its own direct reference. Bill
Keith is there in deference to being a Great Old One. ;-)

- - 3-star sites are "average", but remember that's only in relation to ALL
the sites out there. The SJG and BITS sites, for example, are important
sites but don't really have any *gaming* material, they just tell you to
buy _their_ gaming material. ;-)

- - 4-star sites have something special that puts them above average, such as
extensive Library Data, Javascript apps, etc. Examples include the THUDD
site (sure, it only covers ships - but _what_ ships!!), Doug's Sylea
Downport (this gets it for the Silly Era alone!), Bryan's AAB site (for the
complete Trav publication index list), James Junction ("Counter-Genocide"),
Bruce Johnson's Traveller (the Dean Files), Mark Seeman's Traveller
(Library Data), and so on. Usually, it is just volume or scope that holds
me back from rating them as 5-star.

- - some 5-stars are really 4-star in coverage or volume but stunning artwork
or deckplans or site design or absolute must-have software push them into
the 5-star bracket. Examples include the Draconis Cluster, Virtual Space,
Halfway Station, Galactic, and Freelance Traveller sites (although FT is
closing on being 5-star due to volume alone!).

- - the absolute best 5-stars, and the ones I rate everything else against,
cover everything about Traveller in all its incarnations. Examples include
Goran Damberg's and Joe Heck's sites. Hmmm, maybe I should re-rate
everything in jump drives terms, J1 to J6!

- - I am a sucker for deckplan and artwork sites. Or did I already say that??
:-)  And I'm jealous of Library Data sites that are bigger or better than
mine. ;-)

In the final analysis, it comes down to the "feel" I get about a site's
volume, content, and "look" when I am browsing it.

BTW, I *hate* pop-up window adverts. However, this by itself will not cause
me to lower a site's rating, unless they occur
on-every-page-in-the-damned-site! - time to lower the volume of ads for a
while, maybe go and watch commercial TV...  ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:40:30 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Web site 

> - 4-star sites have something special that puts them above average, such as
> extensive Library Data, Javascript apps, etc. Examples include the THUDD
> site (sure, it only covers ships - but _what_ ships!!), Doug's Sylea
> Downport (this gets it for the Silly Era alone!), Bryan's AAB site (for the
> complete Trav publication index list), James Junction ("Counter-Genocide"),
> Bruce Johnson's Traveller (the Dean Files), Mark Seeman's Traveller
> (Library Data), and so on. Usually, it is just volume or scope that holds
> me back from rating them as 5-star.

I was *shocked* to see I came in as 4 stars!!!!!!!!!

At most, I thought I'd only pull in mebbe 2, *possibly* 3.

And my site isn't even *done* yet...

My head is spinning.  Thanxx for the rating, David.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:46:55 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

>From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
>Subject: Re: colonising hellholes
...
>  Again I wonder if we're talking about the same universe. My
>understanding was that the majority of imperial citizens never leave the
>surface of their homeworld. Only the ones that do would be likely to
>possess required levels of vacuum-op skills, and only a fraction of these
>would be qualified to work on building/expanding/maintaining a first stage
>mining colony.
>  A further question: Is it your opinion that people never/rarely marry
>outside their professional circle and social class. (Now I'm starting to
>wonder if we even _live_ in the same universe.)

  Well, we know that only a statistically insignificant proportion will
be marrying outside their native planetary population :)

  As for the rest, it's probably primarily cultural; regardless of what's
now common in the industrialized nations there have been substantial changes
in even the last century, at least among the middle classes and the elites.
  
        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:03:49 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Tunnelling & Nukes (was Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

>From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
>Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem
...
>> First, check out the cost of excavating a similar sized cavity (say 500
>> meters diameter and a couple of km high) used normal excavation
>> methods. Nukes *are* cheaper.
>
> Is that .5km diam. couple of km high(=2.5 km?) for the entire 5 billion?  
>(0.39m^3/person, my friend is just about that volume crouched up, and
>she's small) I don't think so. (Moving around would be a bit difficult,
>let alone breathing since there's no room for life support.) 

  Well, normal CT tunnelling would cost ~BCr 30 (3x10^10) for about the same
space created - around 40,000,000 Dt, or enough for nine million staterooms.
OC, it's the Cr 100/Dt to move the site to a shipyard that really hurts  :|

>  Anyway, nukes certainly are cheaper,but that doesn't mean they're cheap.

  Interestingly, (the rules tend to agree that small nukes at least run KCr 10
per kiloton yield) larger nukes aren't specified as being cheaper, which ISTR
being the RW case. Mind you, the rules to cover 100-megaton warheads would be
kind of weird and needless.

  OTOH, FF&S1 p. 14 #8 nuke-pumped x-rays seems to violate the yield pricing
given on p. 143; this doesn't seem to be covered in the errata, so what gives?
  
        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:41:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Colonizing hellholes

	Hi.  I've only been skimming this thread, but I thought I'd stick
my two cents in and see what you think.

	One thing I think you may not have been considering is that humans
get used to (and can grow to prefer) whatever environment they're put
into, no matter how negative it may appear to those who live elsewhere.
Once people have lived on a rockball for a while, they _will_ find it
preferable to a garden world, as strange as this may seem to all us
garden-world dwellers.  They will come to expect and be used to the
sterile, controlled conditions and the stark landscape.  Most likely they
will resist moving to anything different, as economical or "beautiful" as
it might seem to most people.  This helps explain why rockballs, orginally
colonized as small mining bases, can grow to have huge populations,
despite the economic difficulties inherent in it. 

	In fact, I imagine that people raised on rockball worlds would
find the moist, teeming chaos of a garden world quite repulsive.  Having
bugs flying around you and small animals crawling nearby when you've never
experienced such things would be rather disconcerting, I think.

Charles.

- -----
"Can anything truly meaningful be said in just a single line? Maybe, maybe
not." 
Charles Collin \\ McGill Psychology \\ http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl
Ph: (514) 398-6151 \\ FAX: (514) 398-4896 \\  charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:58:24 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k

On the subject of Y2K,

Q. Will the Y2K bug cripple our high-tech-based society?

A. No. Things don't work all that well now.

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:01:08 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Colonizing Hellholes

Charles Collin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One thing I think you may not have been considering is that humans
get used to (and can grow to prefer) whatever environment they're put
into, no matter how negative it may appear to those who live elsewhere.
Once people have lived on a rockball for a while, they _will_ find it
preferable to a garden world, as strange as this may seem to all us
garden-world dwellers.  They will come to expect and be used to the
sterile, controlled conditions and the stark landscape.  Most likely they
will resist moving to anything different, as economical or "beautiful" as
it might seem to most people.  This helps explain why rockballs, orginally
colonized as small mining bases, can grow to have huge populations,
despite the economic difficulties inherent in it. 

	In fact, I imagine that people raised on rockball worlds would
find the moist, teeming chaos of a garden world quite repulsive.  Having
bugs flying around you and small animals crawling nearby when you've never
experienced such things would be rather disconcerting, I think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reminds me of Isaac Asimov's _Caves of Steel_ and _Robots of Dawn_.
A detective from over-urbanized Earth trying to function on a wide-open,
uncrowded agrarian world. His agoraphobia was the least of his problems.

Walt Smith

Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:05:25 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>>So you could have a garden world that you could starve to death on. And
>>establishing "Terran" plants and animals in the face of a healthy
>>native ecology won't be much fun.
>
>Welcome to Aurore....


But Aurore is fun... when you are inflicting it on your players :)


>>Another possibility is that there are *natives*, and they don't want a
>>bunch of "aliens" running around on their planet.
>
>Or a bunch of malignant aliens - kafers? - ;-)

;)

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:42:07 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Shuttle (was Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class...) etc 

> Dear Folks -
> 
> Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> >What's the advantage of the shuttle?
> 
> Speed.
> 
> The only G-Carrier that can fly near the speed of a CT or MT shuttle is the
> Imperial Marine Grav APC (1000+ kmh). From (admittedly poor) memory, a MT
> shuttle can fly at 2000+ kmh, while a G-Carrier can only manage 120 kmh.
> 
> Anyone with MT Encyc handy can feel free to correct these speeds.

All I can find for CT is just a G-Carrier.  While they're ok once you're on the ground, even Broadsword had gcarriers in modules on their cutters.  This tells me that the hot setup is to use a cutter or pinnace to get close to the planet, *then* release the gcarriers to make the final assault.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:29:12 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Routes

>The original version is the one in CT's "Spinward Marches Campaign"
>and the indside cover of one of the MT rulebooks.

No, the original version is the one is in LBB
"Supplement Three : The Spinward Marches"

:-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:41:28 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

>  MTU is a TL 11 maximum game, with TL 9 being Terran Sphere
>average, so the IMG APC is *very* not an option.  Hence the
>requirement to haul the G-Carriers down by assault shuttle.


You may not be able to get into orbit  using a G-Carrier, but
you should be able to drop them OK, they just fall until they
tun on their  agrav and stop. Can't get down much faster
than terminal velocity in a shuttle.

Of course, you wouldn't wat to be in the first wave of an
aborted drop.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:17:40 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Colonizing hellholes

Charles Collin said:

> One thing I think you may not have been considering is that humans
>get used to (and can grow to prefer) whatever environment they're put
>into, no matter how negative it may appear to those who live elsewhere.


This is true. The wide number of areas that humans have colonized in our own
world is pretty interesting.

> In fact, I imagine that people raised on rockball worlds would
>find the moist, teeming chaos of a garden world quite repulsive.  Having
>bugs flying around you and small animals crawling nearby when you've never
>experienced such things would be rather disconcerting, I think.


There was an EC comic from the early 50s that had a story that is kind of
relevant. There was a generation ship that took off from earth. Along the
way, the population expanded (as was expected) and most of the original
colonists/crew eventually died off long before they reached the world they
were trying to get to. Only one of the really old folks was left. He stepped
out into a beautiful eden-like landscape. The rest of the colonists came
out.

They were used to the sun lamps on the ship, this sun was too hot and too
bright. They had never known a windstorm. They were never surrounded by such
a multitude of annoying, stinging and biting pests. The old colonist stayed.
The rest got back in the ship and headed away for parts unknown.

>
>Charles.
>
>-----
>"Can anything truly meaningful be said in just a single line? Maybe, maybe
>not."
>Charles Collin \\ McGill Psychology \\ http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl
>Ph: (514) 398-6151 \\ FAX: (514) 398-4896 \\  charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:02:28 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling & Nukes (was Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

>> Is that .5km diam. couple of km high(=2.5 km?) for the entire 5 billion?  
>>(0.39m^3/person, my friend is just about that volume crouched up, and
>>she's small) I don't think so. (Moving around would be a bit difficult,
>>let alone breathing since there's no room for life support.) 
>
>  Well, normal CT tunnelling would cost ~BCr 30 (3x10^10) for about the same
>space created - around 40,000,000 Dt, or enough for nine million staterooms.
>OC, it's the Cr 100/Dt to move the site to a shipyard that really hurts  :|

Confucious say...

If you cannot bring mountain to shipyard, bring shipyard to mountain.

If it would cost to much to move the planetoid, then what would be the cost
of moving the equipment and support on site.

Most of the construction equipment is usually available on most military
tenders, and anything special (plasma tunneling equipment) could be moved
via freighters or other transports. A temporary settlement for the workers
could be constructed on the surface with some allowances for comissaries,
etc, brought in by comercial contract.

"Come visit the new Vally Mart, now open on base camp 2."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1277
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 16 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1278



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Colonizing hellholes
Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k
Re: Shuttle (was Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class...) etc
Re: Tunnelling & Nukes (was Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
World Builder Deluxe
Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Colonizing hellholes
Re: Tunnelling & Nukes (was Re: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: Colonizing hellholes
Re: Colonizing hellholes
Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
TML  #1277 Housekeeping Maintenance:  Consumables
re: Nuc Engineering

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:02:52 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Colonizing hellholes

Yeah, the old EC comics were fairly groovy.  That's why they were declared
unpatriotic.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

- ----------
> From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Colonizing hellholes
> Date: Wednesday, 16 December 1998 19:17
> 
> Charles Collin said:
> 
> > One thing I think you may not have been considering is that humans
> >get used to (and can grow to prefer) whatever environment they're put
> >into, no matter how negative it may appear to those who live elsewhere.
> 
> 
> This is true. The wide number of areas that humans have colonized in our own
> world is pretty interesting.
> 
> > In fact, I imagine that people raised on rockball worlds would
> >find the moist, teeming chaos of a garden world quite repulsive.  Having
> >bugs flying around you and small animals crawling nearby when you've never
> >experienced such things would be rather disconcerting, I think.
> 
> 
> There was an EC comic from the early 50s that had a story that is kind of
> relevant. There was a generation ship that took off from earth. Along the
> way, the population expanded (as was expected) and most of the original
> colonists/crew eventually died off long before they reached the world they
> were trying to get to. Only one of the really old folks was left. He stepped
> out into a beautiful eden-like landscape. The rest of the colonists came
> out.
> 
> They were used to the sun lamps on the ship, this sun was too hot and too
> bright. They had never known a windstorm. They were never surrounded by such
> a multitude of annoying, stinging and biting pests. The old colonist stayed.
> The rest got back in the ship and headed away for parts unknown.
> 
> >
> >Charles.
> >
> >-----
> >"Can anything truly meaningful be said in just a single line? Maybe,
maybe
> >not."
> >Charles Collin \\ McGill Psychology \\
http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl
> >Ph: (514) 398-6151 \\ FAX: (514) 398-4896 \\ 
charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca
> >
> >
> >
> >

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:22:06 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k

I think the principle being applied is "better safe than sorry".

Besides, with the increasing litigation we're seeing (although not yet at
American levels), I suspect someone decided that _not_ having the
military/police on alert would give people an excuse to sue the government
- - which wastes taxpayers money if nothing else.

(Eg. A police officer was killed by a criminal who should have been
deported, but who slipped through the cracks. His family are sueing the
federal government for 100+ million on the grounds that had he been
deported on schedule the officer wouldn't have been shot.)


ObTrav: Well, in MY Imperium lawyers do not run the place, and nobles
concentrate on what's right, not what lessens their risk of legal
exposure. (OR, if I'm feeling dark, nobles ignore the laws because Uncle
Sir Harry is the judge.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:35:14 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shuttle (was Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class...) etc

In a message dated 12/15/98 11:46:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< even Broadsword had gcarriers in modules on their cutters.   >>

actually the write up used wheeled APC's, but I no reason why G carriers
couldn't be used, and after reading these posts; that's what I would do...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:34:51 -0800
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling & Nukes (was Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

Imaginactra wrote:

> >> Is that .5km diam. couple of km high(=2.5 km?) for the entire 5 billion?
> >>(0.39m^3/person, my friend is just about that volume crouched up, and
> >>she's small) I don't think so. (Moving around would be a bit difficult,
> >>let alone breathing since there's no room for life support.)
> >
> >  Well, normal CT tunnelling would cost ~BCr 30 (3x10^10) for about the same
> >space created - around 40,000,000 Dt, or enough for nine million staterooms.
> >OC, it's the Cr 100/Dt to move the site to a shipyard that really hurts  :|
>
> Confucious say...
>
> If you cannot bring mountain to shipyard, bring shipyard to mountain.
>
> If it would cost to much to move the planetoid, then what would be the cost
> of moving the equipment and support on site.
>
> Most of the construction equipment is usually available on most military
> tenders, and anything special (plasma tunneling equipment) could be moved
> via freighters or other transports. A temporary settlement for the workers
> could be constructed on the surface with some allowances for comissaries,
> etc, brought in by comercial contract.

Couldn't you build a ship specifically to mine out and take over a planetoid?
Sort of like a virus or parasite.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:20:50 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: World Builder Deluxe

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE2910.0BD86860
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Version 2 is nearing completion and I hope to release it this weekend. I
have attached an HTML file listing the current Known Issues related to the
program. If you are aware of any other bugs other than those listed please
let me know by Friday at the latest, so that I can address them in time for
the new release.

I would like to thank everyone mailed me in response to my initial post. The
feedback I have been getting is very positive and I hope that Version 2 of
the program addresses the main problems that were encountered in Version1.

I will be releasing Version 3 of my Sector Generator program at the same
time. The most significant update in this program is the ability to save
Subsector files in a format that can be read by World Builder Deluxe. You
will be able to select a World from a Subsector list and then display the
World Details. I had hoped to include the ability to load Galactic 2.4
files, but they do not include Stellar data.

I will post a message to the list when the programs have been uploaded to my
site.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE2910.0BD86860
Content-Type: text/html;
	name="Known Issues.htm"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Known Issues.htm"

<html>

<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type"
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<meta name=3D"GENERATOR" content=3D"Microsoft FrontPage Express 2.0">
<title>Traveller World Builder</title>
</head>

<body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">

<h2 align=3D"center"><strong><u>TRAVELLER WORLD BUILDER =
DELUXE</u></strong></h2>

<h2 align=3D"center"><strong><u>FOR WINDOWS 95</u></strong></h2>

<h2 align=3D"center"><strong><u>WRITTEN BY STUART W =
FERRIS</u></strong></h2>

<hr>

<h3 align=3D"center"><u>Current Version</u></h3>

<p align=3D"center">Version 2</p>

<h3 align=3D"center"><u>Known Issues</u></h3>

<ul type=3D"disc">
    <li><p align=3D"left">The program will occasionally generate a
        World which uses the value of '1' for the stellar mass
        and '0' for the stellar luminosity. This is a bug and I
        hope to rectify this in a later version of the program.</p>
    </li>
</ul>

<ul type=3D"disc">
    <li><p align=3D"left">The program does not calculate the
        Government Type for each authority in a Balkanized world.
        I hope to include this in a later version.</p>
    </li>
</ul>

<h3 align=3D"center"><u>Fixes in Latest Version</u></h3>

<ul type=3D"disc">
    <li><p align=3D"left">Input ranges for Size, Law Level and Tech
        Lecel increased.</p>
    </li>
    <li><p align=3D"left">Resolved problem where PBG data
        disappeared after REPEAT UWP selected.</p>
    </li>
    <li><p align=3D"left">The program now calculates the Stellar
        Luminosity based on all the Stars in the system.</p>
    </li>
    <li><p align=3D"left">The calculation for Energy TL Upper and
        Lower Limits have been rectified.</p>
    </li>
    <li><p align=3D"left">World Data display improved.</p>
    </li>
    <li><p align=3D"left">Error handling when Opening a Sector and
        Saving World Data improved.</p>
    </li>
    <li><p align=3D"left">Various other minor bugs rectified.</p>
    </li>
</ul>

<h3 align=3D"center"><u>Additions to Latest Version</u></h3>

<ul type=3D"disc">
    <li><p align=3D"left">Added the ability to load data from
        Sector files. The Sector Files are standard TXT files
        (albeit with *.WBS extension), but must be laid out in a
        specific format.</p>
    </li>
    <li><p align=3D"left">Sector files (*.WBS) can now be generated
        using Sector Generator (Version 3).</p>
    </li>
    <li><p align=3D"left">Two sample Subsector files (*.WBS) are
        provided with the program. I hope to provide Sector files
        for the various pregenerated Traveller Sectors at a later
        date. A file containing details of the WBS file format is
        provided for information.</p>
    </li>
</ul>

<h3 align=3D"center"><u>Wish List</u></h3>

<ul type=3D"disc">
    <li><p align=3D"left">In a later version I would like to add
        support for Galactic files and perhaps even Trav Tools
        files. Unfortunately, the data provided in Galactic does
        not provide sufficient data to produce a world, i.e.
        Stellar Details are missing.</p>
    </li>
    <li><p align=3D"left">In a later version I would like to add
        support for 'Imperial Squadrons' data. However, I have to
        buy the book first.</p>
    </li>
</ul>

<h3 align=3D"center"><u>Bug Reports</u></h3>

<ul type=3D"disc">
    <li><p align=3D"left">Please send any questions relating to the
        program or any bug reports and calculation errors to the
        following e-mail address:-</p>
    </li>
</ul>

<p align=3D"center"><a =
href=3D"mailto:stuart.ferris@virgin.net">stuart.ferris@virgin.net</a></p>=

<div align=3D"right">

<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"10" width=3D"100%" =
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <tr>
        <td width=3D"100%"><table border=3D"3" width=3D"100%"
        bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<TBODY>            <tr>
                <td align=3D"center">Traveller is a registered
                trademark of Far Future Enterprises.<br>
                Portions of this material are Copyright
                =A91977-1996 Far Future Enterprises</td>
            </tr>
</TBODY>        </table>
        </td>
    </tr>
</table>
</div>
</body>
</html>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE2910.0BD86860--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:08:59 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

>>How fast is a Particle beam?
>        Fast enough that the beam can cross 50,000km in 1000sec...  So, at
>least 50km per sec...  Now that is a *silly* minimum calculation, but it is
>the absolute minimum.

Actually, it's not at all a silly minimum question - it points out that
it really does have to be near c to be useful in space combat. BL/BR give
PAW weapons the same range modifiers (which are an attempt to model the
ability of the target to move out of the way due to lightspeed lag) as lasers,
which implies that they're going within 10-20% of c.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:59:33 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Colonizing hellholes

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:41:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Colonizing hellholes
     Hi.  I've only been skimming this thread, but I thought I'd stick
my two cents in and see what you think.
     One thing I think you may not have been considering is that humans
get used to (and can grow to prefer) whatever environment they're put
into, no matter how negative it may appear to those who live elsewhere.
Once people have lived on a rockball for a while, they _will_ find it
preferable to a garden world, as strange as this may seem to all us
garden-world dwellers.  They will come to expect and be used to the
sterile, controlled conditions and the stark landscape.  Most likely they
will resist moving to anything different, as economical or "beautiful" as
it might seem to most people.  This helps explain why rockballs, orginally
colonized as small mining bases, can grow to have huge populations,
despite the economic difficulties inherent in it.
     In fact, I imagine that people raised on rockball worlds would
find the moist, teeming chaos of a garden world quite repulsive.  Having
bugs flying around you and small animals crawling nearby when you've never
experienced such things would be rather disconcerting, I think.
*************
I am currenty playing a character like that in CmdrX's online game....]

'no I don't want to leave the ship, the planet smells funny and the
environ-control doesn't work.'

'And the ceiling leaks'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:12:29 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling & Nukes (was Re: Transporting fuel insystem)

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:

 
> Couldn't you build a ship specifically to mine out and take over a planetoid?
> Sort of like a virus or parasite.

  Very interesting idea, could be done, I imagine. What's even more
interesting is what happens when one of these ships is infected by a
stable form virus (empire builder, naturalist, mother etc.)

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:29:04 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Eppu Tuominen writes:
> 
> >   Indeed, but the spallation shower would not be focused anymore. The
> > radiation can still do major harm, but this aspect _is_ adressed in
> > Brilliant Lances/MT/HG. At least GURPS space covers effects of PAW induced
> > radiation on ship personell.
> 
> Yah, but if your goal is to kill off the crew with radiation sickness you don't
> really _want_ focus, since it takes 4-5 orders of magnitude more energy to
> destroy the frame than to cook the crew.
> 

  I agree, and I think Traveller space combat should take this into
account. (I only have Brilliant Lances personally. It only adresses damage  
to ship systems, and even this seems too wimpy.)
  Some GURPS product had rules for ship personell irradiation. (I recall
they were rather brutal.) Thought it might have been GURPS space, but
leafing trough it now it seem I was wrong. May have been Compendium II.
  Another question: wouldn't radiation levels high enough to quickly
incapactate the crew do something quite nasty to electrical systems?

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:34:54 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Douglas Glatz wrote:

 
> Now, while I don't have my TNE or MT books with me, I'd be willing to bet
> dollars to donuts that there is equivalent passages in both of those
> editions.

  At least with TNE you'd lose. Went through it with a fine tooth comb
last night, and the basic book doesn't even have an equipment entry for
low berths, let alone give any rules for it. FF&S1 gives vol/mass/price
stats, but seems to lack any concrete operation rules also.
  
  I'm not quite as familiar with MT, but a friend who has been through it
about a million times in the past years assures me this lethality rate is
not mentioned in it either.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:34:11 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

At 20:29 16/12/98 +0200, Eppu Tuominen wrote:

>  I agree, and I think Traveller space combat should take this into
>account. (I only have Brilliant Lances personally. It only adresses damage  
>to ship systems, and even this seems too wimpy.)
>  Some GURPS product had rules for ship personell irradiation. (I recall
>they were rather brutal.) Thought it might have been GURPS space, but
>leafing trough it now it seem I was wrong. May have been Compendium II.
>  Another question: wouldn't radiation levels high enough to quickly
>incapactate the crew do something quite nasty to electrical systems?

PAWs in BL do do extra damage to personnel, though. They cause double
casaulties on a personnel hit, and they reset all non fibre-optic computer
systems.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:51:00 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: re: Transporting fuel insystem

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> The Traveller Imperium is a culture that can put 100,000 people on
> a starship - I'm sure they could put a couple hundred million on
> a planet, no matter how nasty it was. Why would they? That (with
> some referee imagination) is where the universe details (and plot
> hooks) come from.

  Now we're getting somewhere. Maybe, instead of bashing each other's
heads in, we should concentrate on finding some creative solutions to
explaining some of the more bizarre UWP:s.

  For "ignored" garden worlds we have at least:

 -Imperial preserve world
 -Too hostile conditions despite being theoretically garden. (Just using
  World Builder, and tweaking the orbit a bit can create some interesting
  results.) 
 -Small poulation of xenophobic natives. (Only works if you consider the
  Imperium as a nice guy.)
 -Maybe harvesting of extremely valuable living resources, that might be
  destroyed by too many humans.

  And for huge vacuum colonies:

 -The ones that got lucky, and grew big-time.
 -Ones having so incredibly rich mineral resources, that it actually takes
  this large a population to exploit it. (Works better for pop 7-8 worlds,
  methinks.) 

  At least for the vacuum worlds, I personally think we need some more
explanations to complement these. (It seemed I wasn't totally alone in
this, but I could be wrong.)
  So, got any more folks? Any comments on these?  

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:47:32 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

At 20:34 16/12/98 +0200, Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Douglas Glatz wrote:
>
> 
>> Now, while I don't have my TNE or MT books with me, I'd be willing to bet
>> dollars to donuts that there is equivalent passages in both of those
>> editions.
>
>  At least with TNE you'd lose. Went through it with a fine tooth comb
>last night, and the basic book doesn't even have an equipment entry for
>low berths, let alone give any rules for it. FF&S1 gives vol/mass/price
>stats, but seems to lack any concrete operation rules also.

TNE Mk1 mod1, page 219 staes that reviving a low berth occupant is a
Difficult test of Medical (Diagnosis), or Formidible if the passenger has a
Con of 2 or less. A failure results in various nastinesses, from minor
cosmetic problems to internal damage that will not go away without surgery.
A Castrophic Failure kills the passenger. Assuming the Medic has a skill of
4, and an EDU of 6 (this would be fairly typical of someone with a term in
Tech School and a term as a medic) for an Asset of 10. On a scummy Free
Trader a likely Asset would be around 8. An Asset of 10 gives a Castrophic
Failure chance of 2.5%, an Asset of 8 raises this to 9%.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:03:06 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Colonizing hellholes

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Charles Collin wrote:

> 
> 	In fact, I imagine that people raised on rockball worlds would
> find the moist, teeming chaos of a garden world quite repulsive.  Having
> bugs flying around you and small animals crawling nearby when you've never
> experienced such things would be rather disconcerting, I think.

  And just think of all the wonderful disads you could take for a
character like this playing GT: agoraphobia, entomophobia, thalassophobia,
autophobia, possibly pyrophobia, chummy/gregarious, the list goes on and
on. I think this might be a whole lot of fun...

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:06:56 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Colonizing hellholes

- -----Original Message-----
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Colonizing hellholes


>Yeah, the old EC comics were fairly groovy.  That's why they were declared
>unpatriotic.


Not exactly declared unpatriotic per se. The violence in the horror comics
was theoretically what killed them. Underlying it all was Shock
SuspenStories which contained a number of attacks against the statues quo,
and the war comics which showed war as something that wasn't terribly
glorious and quite a bit unpleasant.

That, and the infamous India incident which everyone forgets. It seems the
government of India was insulted by a (non-EC) comic book that stereotyped
Indians as literally bloodthirsty savages. As it turns out, the American
ambassador to India found himself in a very precarious position when he was
confronted with an issue of the comic.

That and Dr. Fredric Wertham's "Seduction of the Innocent" went a long way
to convincing the government that comics were out of hand. Then, the
distributors and the comic companies banded together to self-censor their
wares before the government could do it. This was good for the then much
smaller companies DC comics and Atlas (if I remember right). Atlas would go
on to become Marvel. EC would try a "New Direction", but despite some
quality stories in Impact, the restrictions of the comics code were too
much.

Such a damn shame.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:14:41 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> PAWs in BL do do extra damage to personnel, though. They cause double
> casaulties on a personnel hit, and they reset all non fibre-optic computer
> systems.

 The double casualties are only for penetrating hits AFAIK, though, and
just resetting a few computers seems a bit wimpy as I said. I think more
drastic effects would be in order. Just a gut feeling as usual. 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:00:52 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: TML  #1277 Housekeeping Maintenance:  Consumables

Fellow TMLers:

I wonder if I can jump into the discussion concerning Logistics,
Housekeeping and Maintenance.  I've noticed that no one seems to have come
up with a definitive level as to consumables for human life support.  So I
went to my local survivalist friend who is getting ready for the Y2K bug.
(lets not go there)  Any ways, I asked him what he based his needs on, and
he said that a certain religious group publishes annual recommendations to
its congregation.  The list of approximately twenty to thirty items weighs
out at approximately 0.25 metric tonnes per person.  Volume occupied is
approximately the equivalent of  3.5 cubic meters.  I rounded up for ease
of calculations.  This would be enough basic food, water and staples for a
year.

Annual breathable air requirements need a bit of calculation.  Assume
standard temperature, pressure  at 1 Atmosphere (atm) and 20% oxygen
atmosphere mix.  A person respires approximately 1.5 liters of air per
breath.  Average rate of respiration is 20 breaths per minute.  (This is
lower while sleeping and higher  while exercising.)  Now the stubby pencil
work begins......

30 liters respired per minute
900l per hour
2.16E4 l  per day
6.05E5 l per month (28 day)
7.86E6 l per annum  or  7.86E3 cu meters per annum

To give you an idea of what kind of real world working situations are
around, a thirty foot (9 meters for argument sake) tube trailer has
approximately 16.52cu m of breathing air pressurized at 32,330 atm.
Converting this to 1 atm would bring the volume to 5.34E5cu m.  I used the
perfect gas law.

This volume works out to be more than enough air for approximately 6.79
people in a year.  I  work with this supplied air system and have yet to
run out of air in a year.  Granted, we usually do this work in the winter
and work lasts between four and six hours a day with up to four employees
on the system at one time.

If we increase the respiration to 2 liters per breath, the increased use
would bring the available air to approximately 2.5 persons per year.  Lets
round down for sake of argument to 2 persons.

So for food and air alone, we would need to set aside 12 cubic meters of
space for one person to survive a year on any particular starship.
Conceivably, approximately 1.0 cubic meters per month per person.  For a
1000 dT Merc Cruiser with a compliment of 15 crew and 30 troops, with
another 5 persons thrown in for good measure, 650 cubic meters of space is
needed for suvuval throughout the coming year.  If we use the HG dT- volume
of 13.5 cu m per dT, then a one percent rate may be too high based upon the
above calculations.  Realize, I did not take into account equipment logistics.

Lets look at those pallets for equipment storage and what I recall are War
Reserve Kits (WRSK).  For an entire C-130 Squadron of 12 birds to go on
mobility it required at least one 10 cu m WRSK of parts to go with the
birds.  Another kit was set up for specialized gear (poopy suits, and other
life support repair gear).  One kit of admin stuff.  Two kits were the load
handling equipment which flew in four birds.  The other five birds handled
all the support personnel and additional pilots.  For reference sake, each
kit actually took up the floor space of the entire C-130.  This was also
the basic kit that the squadron could get by with.  If there was truly a
wartime activity, other equipment would be placed in the personnel birds,
and the personnel would be placed on different ferry birds, usually reserve
airlift.  So from my model, wartime logistical support could require up to
75% of available volume.  Shades of "Das Boot," with crammed aisles and
sausages swinging from the ceiling.

So what's right, maybe a sliding scale dependent upon the type of activity?
  Should the standards and limits be set for a year of logistical support
or should one month be set as the limit?  What do the aircraft carriers do
for  resupply?  How often do submarines resupply?  Is it as needed?  My
father-in-law stated that the Randolph resupplied at sea for fuel and
consumables every month during WW2.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:00:00 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Nuc Engineering

Eppuo Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  I agree, and I think Traveller space combat should take this into
account. (I only have Brilliant Lances personally. It only adresses damage  
to ship systems, and even this seems too wimpy.)
  Some GURPS product had rules for ship personell irradiation. (I recall
they were rather brutal.) Thought it might have been GURPS space, but
leafing trough it now it seem I was wrong. May have been Compendium II.
  Another question: wouldn't radiation levels high enough to quickly
incapactate the crew do something quite nasty to electrical systems?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IIRC (don't have it with me), the damage tables from High Guard included
radiation damage from particle beam hits. One good hit could cost you
90% of your crew and a couple levels of computer capability. Computers
with fiber optic backup were immune.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1278
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 16 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1279



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables
Re: Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables
re: Transporting fuel in-system
Re: Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables 
Off-Topic MIS Job
re: Nuc Engineering
The Past Comes Back To Haunt Us
re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: Colonising hellholes
And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
In search of...
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Low Berth death chances (was colonising hellholes)
re: Transporting fuel in-system
[www][zine] Freelance Traveller Updated - 16 Dec 1998
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1273

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:24:42 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:00:52 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: TML  #1277 Housekeeping Maintenance:  Consumables
Any ways, I asked him what he based his needs on, and
he said that a certain religious group publishes annual recommendations to
its congregation.  The list of approximately twenty to thirty items weighs
out at approximately 0.25 metric tonnes per person.  Volume occupied is
approximately the equivalent of  3.5 cubic meters.  I rounded up for ease
of calculations.  This would be enough basic food, water and staples for a
year.
*************
doesn't *everyone* have a years supply of food onhand?  BTW the water is
only for two weeks, a years worth would take much more room.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:43:08 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------1A40B61DA80FA5C1064C63AD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com wrote:
> 
>> From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
>> Subject: TML  #1277 Housekeeping Maintenance:  Consumables
>> *************
> doesn't *everyone* have a years supply of food onhand?  BTW the water is
> only for two weeks, a years worth would take much more room.

No the water is dehydrated.... ;->

The Count
- --------------1A40B61DA80FA5C1064C63AD
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
 name="gsmith.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Greg Smith
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="gsmith.vcf"

begin:vcard 
n:Schultz;Wolfgang 
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
adr:;;;;;;
version:2.1
note:"'Woof, Woof-woof.'  That's my other dog imitation."  --Oddball
end:vcard

- --------------1A40B61DA80FA5C1064C63AD--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:06:56 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Transporting fuel in-system

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Now we're getting somewhere. Maybe, instead of bashing each other's
heads in, we should concentrate on finding some creative solutions to
explaining some of the more bizarre UWP:s.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmmm?

No, that bashing sound was the TML discussion hammering out a
common set of assumptions to use as a starting point. <G>

Eppu again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  For "ignored" garden worlds we have at least:
<snip>
 -Small poulation of xenophobic natives. (Only works if you consider the
  Imperium as a nice guy.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not at all. The Imperium makes a valuable world off-limits so it's
scouts can study the primitive natives - natives that barely use
a tenth of the world's surface. Meanwhile, millions of Imperial
citizens languish on a hell-world a mere parsec away. Will the
Imperium be nice enough to allow people to develop and make use
of some of this garden world? No, it doesn't care about it's
citizens enough to allow that...
You could even have an Imperial Commander gloat about it...
it's not like he won't get to enjoy as much of this planet as
he wants to, special permits and such.

or:

All these primitive natives languishing in barbarity on this garden
world. If just a million of us moved there, we could help them make
use of their planet - they could show us the dangers of their ecosystem,
we could share with them the benefits of technology, education,
medicine - think what we could do together! But no, the Imperial
Government won't let us, they've made all that world beyond the
starport fence a restricted area...

I can invite you to a birthday party, ply you with cake and cookies,
and leave you feeling like I was nasty in spades. It's all a matter
of context.

Eppu again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  So, got any more folks? Any comments on these?  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just a couple:

Tainted atmospheres. On a world with a population in the billions,
environmental mismanagement can create environmental taints.
The original CT world generation tables seemed to assume this - 
you almost needed a bad atmosphere to attain the "Industrial"
trade code. 

Environmental catastrophes could also occur. Say the addition of
a Terran (or Reginan, or Efatian, or whatever) fungus into the local
ecosystem had some synergistic effect, and suddenly mutant
sporulating mosses are clogging the air from pole to pole
with borderline toxic allergens. Or worse - the albedo or ozone layer
suffers a catastrophic change, and the world gradually goes from
garden to minimally habitable to hostile. The inhabitants have, by that
time, spent billions of Cr on factories, starports, orbital facilities - 
they're not only stuck here, they (think they) know what went wrong
and with some work they can fix it. If they can keep up with the
environmental changes, they may stay on the try and stop or reverse
them. A heavily populated planet in the midst of an unexpected 
economic cataclycsm...owch!

Uninhabitable planets: remember this isn't the only feature of the
solar system, just the one they put the starport on. The population
could be living in orbital colonies, in a generation ship with a busted
main drive, whatever. That planet with an insidious atmosphere and
a population of three billion - the only thing down on that planet
are the duranium mines. Everyone else is living on the tech level
fifteen orbital habitats they bought from Rhylanor. Since people live
in the volume of an orbital city (instead of on the surface, like a world)
you can put a lot of people in a great big bubble in the sky.

(By my calculations, if you tunnel rooms into an asteroid less than
25 km in diameter, you'll have enough room to give each of 3 billion
people more than 2000 cubic meters of space each. Some space will
have to go for bracing and life support, but that sure beats a stateroom
at what - 54 cubic meters?)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:08:38 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables 

> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:00:52 -0700
> From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
> Subject: TML  #1277 Housekeeping Maintenance:  Consumables
> Any ways, I asked him what he based his needs on, and
> he said that a certain religious group publishes annual recommendations to
> its congregation.  The list of approximately twenty to thirty items weighs
> out at approximately 0.25 metric tonnes per person.  Volume occupied is
> approximately the equivalent of  3.5 cubic meters.  I rounded up for ease
> of calculations.  This would be enough basic food, water and staples for a
> year.
> *************
> doesn't *everyone* have a years supply of food onhand?  BTW the water is
> only for two weeks, a years worth would take much more room.
 
Right.  The LDS Church has done this practically since Day 1.  Not a bad idea, 
IMNSHO.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:20:42 -0500
From: "Dan Eveland" <develand@mindspring.com>
Subject: Off-Topic MIS Job

This message is for any Traveller fan who is looking for a system
administrator job.

Anyone on this list with experience in MIS want to come to Florida and work
in Orlando?  We have a bunch of servers on Ethernet that need to be
re-organized and such.  Pay is decent.  Must be self-starter and motivated.
I will be the supervisor, but I don't want to have to see you more then a
few times a month at work.  Lots of freedom, just show results.  I am an
avid Traveller player and would love to see another gamer get the job.  I
think I am the only gamer in the entire company of 300 people.  You must
have some kind of social skills, though.  And if you like Traveller, you can
play Sundays with your boss.  :)

It's a printing company, with lots of toys.  I do all my deck plans in 25mm
scale in Adobe Illustrator and output them to a full-color 36" by 48"
PostScript plotter.  Dozens of high-speed laser printers to output character
sheets to as well!  :)

Thanks

Dan
develand@mindspring.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:20:07 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: re: Nuc Engineering

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> IIRC (don't have it with me), the damage tables from High Guard included
> radiation damage from particle beam hits. One good hit could cost you
> 90% of your crew and a couple levels of computer capability. Computers
> with fiber optic backup were immune.

  Could someone who has both HG and BL convert these to the latter? I know
I could find use for these...

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:55:48 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: The Past Comes Back To Haunt Us

David Jacques-Watson (Hyphen) was kind enough to locate the
Letter from the RICE Trustees and forward it to me.  This Letter
marked the public announcement of the conversion of the RICE
Archives from a strictly planetary focus to a broader, more
generally informative focus, becoming the immediate predecessor
to Freelance Traveller.

Included with the Letter were other clips from the TML digests of
that period (1995!), from John Bogan, suggesting the creation of
the "Remnants' List", which would provide information about
pre-Collapse Imperial culture to the people of post-Collapse
Coalition-influenced space.  These, like the RICE Papers, would
be written to a non-technical audience with little or no
background in the subject matter.

Were any "Remnant's Guides" ever written?  If so, I promise them
a home on Freelance Traveller - just send them along, to either
of the addresses in the signature.

Similar works for/from "other similar organizations" are also
welcome.  I'd especially be interested and appreciative if
someone would mine/scavenge the archives of the TML, XTML, and
any other Traveller-related lists for stuff like this that was
posted to the lists, but never made it to anyone's Traveller web
site.

Finalized equipment/ship/vehicle/weapon profiles (including the
design system abuses from Famille Spofulam and the Sayat
Concourse), with accompanying descriptive text (Ditzie's letters
and monologues are OK, provided a translation accompanies them),
will also be eagerly accepted, and included either "In a Store
Near You" or in a newly-created, more appropriate section (such
as, perhaps, the "Shipyard", the "Equipment Section", the "Armory
and Arsenal", and so on).

That said, has anyone found RICE Paper #0, the one that describes
how to read the RICE Papers?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:10:34 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:

>How fast is a Particle beam? We all run around asuming C, but is that
>realistic?

Relativistic?

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:13:56 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

"Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM> wrote:

>There have been 3 versions of Traveller that have been published since TD#21
>(assuming, of course, that TD stands for The Dragon)

Look! Look! There's an AD&Der on the list. Quick, get the meson guns ;-)

On the TML, TD usually refers to Traveller Digest, as published by DGP
prior to MTJ (MegaTraveller Journal).

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:04:04 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

At 20:34 16-12-98 +0200, Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Douglas Glatz wrote:
>
> 
>> Now, while I don't have my TNE or MT books with me, I'd be willing to bet
>> dollars to donuts that there is equivalent passages in both of those
>> editions.
>
>  At least with TNE you'd lose. Went through it with a fine tooth comb
>last night, and the basic book doesn't even have an equipment entry for
>low berths, let alone give any rules for it. FF&S1 gives vol/mass/price
>stats, but seems to lack any concrete operation rules also.
>  
>  I'm not quite as familiar with MT, but a friend who has been through it
>about a million times in the past years assures me this lethality rate is
>not mentioned in it either.

MT Imperial Encyclopedia, p 87 (Travelling: Space Travel)

   *Low Passage:*  Transportation while in cryogenic sleep (suspended
animation) is possible at relatively low cost to the passenger.  The
passenger is placed in a low passage berth before the ship takes off and
travels the entire journey in a state of suspended animation.  He does not
age, and requires very little life support.  Unfortunately, the low passage
system involves some intrinsic dangers to the passenger, and he runs some
risk of not surviving the voyage.  Surviving uses the following UTP:

      To survive a low passage voyage: Routine, Medical, Edu, 1 min.
(fateful).

   *Referee:*  The Medical skill and Education characteristics used as
modifiers to this task roll are those of the attending physician at the
time of deberthing, not those of the character at risk.  Various effects
occur for any mishap (roll 2D): Superficial Mishap: The subject temporarily
suffers 1D wounds for 106 days, after which healing is automatic; skin
loses some of its tone and color for 1-6 weeks, having a gray, wrinkled
appearance.  Minor Mishap: The subject temporarily suffers 2D wounds for
1-6 days, after which healing is automatic; subject experiences motor
function problems for 1-6 weeks with corresponding loss of 2 points of
dexterity during that time.  Major Mishap: The subject suffers 3D permanent
wounds; the subject's internal organs are damaged, and the subject must
undergo medical diagnosis and treatment to restore full health.  Destroyed
Mishap: This is not possible on a 2D mishap.

   Commercial starship lines offering low berth passage typically guarantee
that deberthing will be conducted by a physician of at least skill level 3;
TAS advises all travellers to exercise caution when travelling low berth.

[Megatraveller Imperial Encyclopedia, edited by Gary L Thomas and Joe D
Fugate Sr.  Copyright 1987, Game Designers' Workshop.]

MT Players' Manual, p 37 (Skills, Skill List):

      To revive a low passage passenger:
      Routine, Medical, Edu, 1 min (fateful).

[Megatraveller Player's Manual, edited by Joe D Fugate Sr and Gary L
Thomas.  Copyright 1987, Game Designers' Workshop.]


James

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:22:26 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

BBC News Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 21:53 GMT

FIREING ON ALL CYLINDERS

By Jeremy Vine in Johannesburg 

Car drivers in South Africa are being offered a new
method of preventing hijacking. 

A blaster, flame-thrower operated by a foot pedal
inside the car, blasts a jet of fire at a would-be
hijacker. 

A person confronted by an armed hijacker simply
presses a pedal and the "blaster" ignites
gas that shoots from the under-side of the car. 

Doctors say the device is lethal - but the police
have confirmed it is perfectly legal. 

[The full story, with pictures, can be found at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_232000/232777.stm]

ObTrav:  Has anyone had players add similar "defensive"
items to vehicles used on planet? Obviously, GURPS allows
this with its Car Wars milieu but what about T4/TNE/MT?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:52:31 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: In search of...

... for both my personal use and for the Computer Connection:

Software suitable for use on an Intel-based system (DOS or
Windows) for the purpose of generating characters under CT, MT,
and/or T4 chargen systems.  TNE generation is a nice extra.  The
faster I get a response to a usable one, the better I'm going to
like it.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:51:38 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

Eppu Tuominen wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> > The Traveller Imperium is a culture that can put 100,000 people on
> > a starship - I'm sure they could put a couple hundred million on
> > a planet, no matter how nasty it was. Why would they? That (with
> > some referee imagination) is where the universe details (and plot
> > hooks) come from.
> 
>   Now we're getting somewhere. Maybe, instead of bashing each other's
> heads in, we should concentrate on finding some creative solutions to
> explaining some of the more bizarre UWP:s.
> 
>   For "ignored" garden worlds we have at least:
> 
>  -Imperial preserve world

Or a noble's vacation resort, etc.

>  -Too hostile conditions despite being theoretically garden. (Just using
>   World Builder, and tweaking the orbit a bit can create some interesting
>   results.)

An interesting take on this might be that some environmental factor
inhibits human fertility, or, more subtly, libido.

>  -Small poulation of xenophobic natives. (Only works if you consider the
>   Imperium as a nice guy.)
>  -Maybe harvesting of extremely valuable living resources, that might be
>   destroyed by too many humans.
> 
A couple more:
*  Interstellar political considerations, such as the garden world being
located within a demilitarized zone.

*  Lack of useful resources (e.g., the crust is metal-poor).

>   And for huge vacuum colonies:
> 
>  -The ones that got lucky, and grew big-time.
>  -Ones having so incredibly rich mineral resources, that it actually takes
>   this large a population to exploit it. (Works better for pop 7-8 worlds,
>   methinks.)
> 
>   At least for the vacuum worlds, I personally think we need some more
> explanations to complement these. (It seemed I wasn't totally alone in
> this, but I could be wrong.)
>   So, got any more folks? Any comments on these?
> 
Another reason for high-population vacuum worlds is strategic location,
with the concomitant military bases, leading to the obligatory G.I.
towns....

> -------------
> Eppu Tuominen
> eptitu@utu.fi
> -------------

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:14:16 -0000
From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Low Berth death chances (was colonising hellholes)

>Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes
>
>On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Douglas Glatz wrote:
>
>
>> Now, while I don't have my TNE or MT books with me, I'd be willing to bet
>> dollars to donuts that there is equivalent passages in both of those
>> editions.
>
>  At least with TNE you'd lose. Went through it with a fine tooth comb
>last night, and the basic book doesn't even have an equipment entry for
>low berths, let alone give any rules for it. FF&S1 gives vol/mass/price
>stats, but seems to lack any concrete operation rules also.
>
I'm afraid you comb must be missing a couple of teeth. Page 218-219 of the
main rulebook give details on interstellar travel and detail all the types
of passage. It states that reviving a low passenger is a Difficult (using
the Medical (Diagnosis) skill , a failure resulting in damage and a crit
failure resulting in death.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:39:17 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: re: Transporting fuel in-system

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

>  -Small poulation of xenophobic natives. (Only works if you consider the
>   Imperium as a nice guy.)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Not at all. The Imperium makes a valuable world off-limits so it's
> scouts can study the primitive natives - natives that barely use
> a tenth of the world's surface. Meanwhile, millions of Imperial
> citizens languish on a hell-world a mere parsec away. Will the
> Imperium be nice enough to allow people to develop and make use
> of some of this garden world? No, it doesn't care about it's
> citizens enough to allow that...


  Ouch, you're right. Works for only a limited number of worlds, though.
An Imperium of this mindset would have no qualms about letting the
megacorps exterminate any xenophobic populations it didn't need for study
or whatever (off camera, of course). OTOH this would probably mostly have
already happened in the early Imperium (expansion/consolidation) era.

 
> All these primitive natives languishing in barbarity on this garden
> world. If just a million of us moved there, we could help them make
> use of their planet - they could show us the dangers of their ecosystem,
> we could share with them the benefits of technology, education,
> medicine - think what we could do together! But no, the Imperial
> Government won't let us, they've made all that world beyond the
> starport fence a restricted area...

  Couple of these mentioned in the library data already I believe. (Can't
recall specific references right now.)

> Tainted atmospheres. On a world with a population in the billions,
> environmental mismanagement can create environmental taints.
> The original CT world generation tables seemed to assume this - 
> you almost needed a bad atmosphere to attain the "Industrial"
> trade code. 

  TNE world generation IIRC just flat out stated you need a tainted
atmosphere to qualify as an industrial world. Considering the usual amount
of environmental awareness possessed by the megacorps, most In worlds
probably would have tainted atmospheres, but I still think the rule is
just a bit too stict.
  Could some low pop garden worlds with tainted Atm:s then be former In
worlds abandoned ceturies ago, after their environments became just too
spoiled to live in. (An image of vast deserted TL 9-10 skyscrapers/arcos
with their slowly decaying tops lost in a yellowish toxic haze. I sense a
major story hook here.)

> Environmental catastrophes could also occur. Say the addition of
> a Terran (or Reginan, or Efatian, or whatever) fungus into the local
> ecosystem had some synergistic effect, and suddenly mutant
> sporulating mosses are clogging the air from pole to pole
> with borderline toxic allergens. Or worse - the albedo or ozone layer
> suffers a catastrophic change, and the world gradually goes from
> garden to minimally habitable to hostile. The inhabitants have, by that
> time, spent billions of Cr on factories, starports, orbital facilities - 
> they're not only stuck here, they (think they) know what went wrong
> and with some work they can fix it. If they can keep up with the
> environmental changes, they may stay on the try and stop or reverse
> them. A heavily populated planet in the midst of an unexpected 
> economic cataclycsm...owch!

  Harry Harrison's Deathworld series comes to mind. Maybe a few
hundred/thousand stubborn colonists eking out an existence in an ecosystem
made ultrahostile by human meddling.

> Uninhabitable planets: remember this isn't the only feature of the
> solar system, just the one they put the starport on. The population
> could be living in orbital colonies, in a generation ship with a busted
> main drive, whatever. That planet with an insidious atmosphere and
> a population of three billion - the only thing down on that planet
> are the duranium mines. Everyone else is living on the tech level
> fifteen orbital habitats they bought from Rhylanor. Since people live
> in the volume of an orbital city (instead of on the surface, like a world)
> you can put a lot of people in a great big bubble in the sky.

  A vacuum rockball world, probably in the outer system, with nothing but
an A class starport on it The population living in a string of fused
asteroids and cometary nuclei laced by geneered plantlife. (Yes, I'm
ripping off Hyperion here.)

> (By my calculations, if you tunnel rooms into an asteroid less than
> 25 km in diameter, you'll have enough room to give each of 3 billion
> people more than 2000 cubic meters of space each. Some space will
> have to go for bracing and life support, but that sure beats a stateroom
> at what - 54 cubic meters?)

  The space allocation is, if anything, generous. I'd say you can stuff
closer to 10 billion into a rock like that, if it's totally hollowed out,
and you're not too concerned about the occasional colonist losing his
marbles. 
  What this is, is damned expensive, but it might be done for example if
you need a lot of people there because of the system's strategically
important location. 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:58:42 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [www][zine] Freelance Traveller Updated - 16 Dec 1998

Freelance Traveller, The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller
Resource, has posted its latest update to
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller.  Most notable in this update
is the beginning of the return of the RICE Papers to general
availability.  More RICE Papers will be recovered and included in
the next few updates.

We apologize for the fact that this update does not allow for
translation into other languages, as we promised last update.
While the translation software we found seems to be very good, in
doing test translations, we found some unexpected glitches which
will require accommodation through the alteration of some of our
pages.

As always, Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks to
those that visit, those that provide feedback, and those that
have written for us - without you, the Traveller fans, we could
not be the resource we want to be, and we could not even exist.
Once again, a heartfelt "Thank You".




Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises,
1988-1998.  Use of the trademark in this notice and in the
referenced materials is not intended to infringe or devalue the
trademark.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:43:17 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1273

>>>>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

> Eppu Tuominen wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>   Even a rapid but controlled release of energy is still radiation.
The
> radiation released would produce more unstable nuclei, not as much
as
> previously, but some. The radiation level would drop (maybe on a log
> curve), but all radiation wouldn' just magically disappear.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> It doesn't have to.
> 
> Humans evolved in a pretty radioactive environment. Get the
radiation
> even a little bit down a log curve and people can handle it. Most
> environmental cleanup operations have an allowed tolerance level
> as the target of the cleanup, not a 100% cleanup job.

  I agree. But even this would take some pecievable time, don't you
think?
It was the "waving things over with a nuke damper" part I was most
objecting to.
>>>>
My understanding of combat type nuclear dampers is that they (on a high
level of abstraction) reduce the nuclear warhead to a state where it
will not produce a nuclear explosion.  I assume (OK, IMTU) that combat
use does not reduce the radioactivity a huge amount, but enough to make
it non-explosive (in the nuclear sense).  So if you did post-combat
salvage of nuclear missiles, you would still need to be worried about
radiation.  My understanding of current (TL7-8) nuclear weapons is that
they are fairly close on the tolerance between the critical mass and
just a bunch of radioactive material.  The difference is only a few
percent in the total mass of the warhead (IIRC), so a combat damper
would only have to maybe do a 1-2% reduction in radioactivity to make
this effective.
Calculation time!
2% reduction in about 20 minutes gives 90% reduction in about
20min*45*2%= 30 hours.
So, you could setup a damper for a day and a half, say, and be
comfortable with short-term exposure without (much) worry.

As far as the holes themselves, I would assume you would use fairly
ordinary mining techniques to remove the top layer of crumbled (but not
yet fallen) material from the outside of the sphere.  You would probably
also use a concrete (or other material) to cover the surfaced rock in
most areas of the created cavern.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1279
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 16 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1280



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
A Request.
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
Re: Off-Topic MIS Job
[OT] Rob Prior -  is your ISP going funny again?
James Bond 007 & Vehicles
Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)
Transporting Scotty-Style
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous... 
CLAY-MORE!
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
Claymore Details
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1279
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
GeoCities Watermark:  An Update
Software Help Needed
Re: Claymore Details
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
T2000

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, SD Mooney wrote:

> Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:
> 
> >How fast is a Particle beam? We all run around asuming C, but is that
> >realistic?
> 
> Relativistic?

  Would have to be, as far as I can see, considering the distances and
corresponding time lags involved.
  Someone recently posted some stuff about hit chances in HG with some
very convincing looking figures on beam travel times and target spheres of
movement. (These were so long I simply didn't have time to read them all.)
Would this person maybe care to do some hard math on the same vein to
figure out rough minimum beam velocities? 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:02:04 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: A Request.

Folks,

Can I just ask that we show some restraint and a lack of jingoism about the
subject of Desert Fox in the Gulf? I appreciate that the activities there
are bound to bring out emotion in people, but there are inevitably going to
be people who feel strongly both ways as to whether the action is justified.

When news breaks and intrudes (as it is bound to do with both serving and
veteran military personnel, and our resident 'gearheads' and 'gun bunnies'
on the TML), we should all try and moderate our responses bearing in mind
that there are people on both sides of this operation who are in harms'
way.

Additionally, remember the small flame fest that a (joking) comment about
using nuclear weapons on Baghdad caused a few months ago, and imagine it
scaled up.

This request isn't meant to patronise anyone, or even an attempt to
'censor' people's right to free speech (a right that some on the TML do not
actually have). It is a request for us to be mature, civilised and to
remember what the TML is here for, when we compose our posts.

Best Regards,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:07:16 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

In a message dated 12/16/98 2:24:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
David.Smart@ons.octel.com writes:

<< ObTrav:  Has anyone had players add similar "defensive"
 items to vehicles used on planet? Obviously, GURPS allows
 this with its Car Wars milieu but what about T4/TNE/MT?
  >>

I have the old Space Gamer article about the Omni-car. James bond in space for
a mere 250,000 Credits!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:41:48 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 12/16/98 2:24:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> David.Smart@ons.octel.com writes:
> 
> << ObTrav:  Has anyone had players add similar "defensive"
>  items to vehicles used on planet? Obviously, GURPS allows
>  this with its Car Wars milieu but what about T4/TNE/MT?
>   >>
> 
> I have the old Space Gamer article about the Omni-car. James bond in space for
> a mere 250,000 Credits!

Meanwhile, in RL, some US personnel reportedly attached Claymore mines
to the outside of their vehicles in Vietnam.  Did quite a number on
attacking infantry.  Of course, if the vehicle wasn't shielded from the
blast (e.g., by lots of sandbags), the Claymore would do quite a number
on the _vehicle_, as well....

C'est la guerre....

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:39:29 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic MIS Job

Sounds great, but I'm probably not qualified, yet.  I'm starting my A.S. in
Computer Information Systems Analysis this semester.

I'm not MCSE certified.

Like I said, I'm probably not qualified, yet.  Too bad, too, 'cause I live
in Cocoa, FL.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Dan Eveland <develand@mindspring.com>
To: Traveller List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 4:28 PM
Subject: Off-Topic MIS Job


>This message is for any Traveller fan who is looking for a system
>administrator job.
>
>Anyone on this list with experience in MIS want to come to Florida and work
>in Orlando?  We have a bunch of servers on Ethernet that need to be
>re-organized and such.  Pay is decent.  Must be self-starter and motivated.
>I will be the supervisor, but I don't want to have to see you more then a
>few times a month at work.  Lots of freedom, just show results.  I am an
>avid Traveller player and would love to see another gamer get the job.  I
>think I am the only gamer in the entire company of 300 people.  You must
>have some kind of social skills, though.  And if you like Traveller, you
can
>play Sundays with your boss.  :)
>
>It's a printing company, with lots of toys.  I do all my deck plans in 25mm
>scale in Adobe Illustrator and output them to a full-color 36" by 48"
>PostScript plotter.  Dozens of high-speed laser printers to output
character
>sheets to as well!  :)
>
>Thanks
>
>Dan
>develand@mindspring.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:39:40 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [OT] Rob Prior -  is your ISP going funny again?

Rob,

Just got a delayed from your site like I used to get when it was messed up,

Dom

>Envelope-to: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
>From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon@u-net.com>
>To: dom@cybergoths.u-net.com
>Subject: Warning: message 0zq4kB-0004Sy-00 delayed
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:35:10 +0000
>
>This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
>
>A message that you sent has not yet been delivered to all its recipients
>after more than 24 hours on the queue on mserv1a.u-net.net.
>
>The message identifier is:     0zq4kB-0004Sy-00
>The date of the message is:    Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:17:57 +0000
>The subject of the message is: GT Test
>
>The address to which the message has not yet been delivered is:
>
>  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca
>
>No action is required on your part. Delivery attempts will continue for
>some time, and this message will be repeated at intervals if the message
>remains undelivered. Eventually the mail delivery software will give up,
>and when that happens, the message will be returned to you.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:44:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: James Bond 007 & Vehicles

The James Bond 007 role-playing game had a pretty good system for adding
modifications to vehicles.

I miss my Lotus Esprit Turbo complete with armor...

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Smart, David J (David) <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 5:30 PM
Subject: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...


>BBC News Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 21:53 GMT
>
>FIREING ON ALL CYLINDERS
>
>By Jeremy Vine in Johannesburg
>
>Car drivers in South Africa are being offered a new
>method of preventing hijacking.
>
>A blaster, flame-thrower operated by a foot pedal
>inside the car, blasts a jet of fire at a would-be
>hijacker.
>
>A person confronted by an armed hijacker simply
>presses a pedal and the "blaster" ignites
>gas that shoots from the under-side of the car.
>
>Doctors say the device is lethal - but the police
>have confirmed it is perfectly legal.
>
>[The full story, with pictures, can be found at:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_232000/232777.stm]
>
>ObTrav:  Has anyone had players add similar "defensive"
>items to vehicles used on planet? Obviously, GURPS allows
>this with its Car Wars milieu but what about T4/TNE/MT?
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:45:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Nuc Engineering (w: Transporting fuel insystem)

Eppu Tuominen writes:
>   Would have to be, as far as I can see, considering the distances and
> corresponding time lags involved.
>   Someone recently posted some stuff about hit chances in HG with some
> very convincing looking figures on beam travel times and target spheres of
> movement. (These were so long I simply didn't have time to read them all.)
> Would this person maybe care to do some hard math on the same vein to
> figure out rough minimum beam velocities? 

Hm...wasn't me (figures I recall were slightly wrong because they assumed
constant single-direction acceleration for full turnover time, which is a bit
higher than actual distances would be), but the answer is easy to compute.  To
have the same ranges as lasers, you need the same velocity as lasers ;). 
Actual range for a constant delay is multiplied by 1/(1 + 1/(v/c)); thus for
90% of the range you need 82% of c (700 MeV/nucleon).  Most likely per-particle
energy is actually a direct function of the length of the PAW, though (which
means radiation effects are probably variable with PAW length.  There's an
argument for PAW penetration being a function of length rather than beam
energy, since energy per nucleon probably gives a better measure of radiation
penetration).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:49:22 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Transporting Scotty-Style

I read in Popular Mechanics, I think, just last month that they already have
the idea of how to transport a living thing from one place to another,
dematerializing at one end and rematerializing at the other.

Only problem is that the thing is essentially destroyed at the origin and a
clone is reformed out of elements present at the destination.

There is no continuation of consciousness, so you essentially have to die to
live somewhere else.

They plan to be able to "teleport" a virus this way in about 10 years.
Larger organisms will take longer, but the point was made that a DNA strand
could be "teleported" if a virus could.

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 6:46 PM
Subject: re: Transporting fuel in-system


>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:
>
>>  -Small poulation of xenophobic natives. (Only works if you consider the
>>   Imperium as a nice guy.)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Not at all. The Imperium makes a valuable world off-limits so it's
>> scouts can study the primitive natives - natives that barely use
>> a tenth of the world's surface. Meanwhile, millions of Imperial
>> citizens languish on a hell-world a mere parsec away. Will the
>> Imperium be nice enough to allow people to develop and make use
>> of some of this garden world? No, it doesn't care about it's
>> citizens enough to allow that...
>
>
>  Ouch, you're right. Works for only a limited number of worlds, though.
>An Imperium of this mindset would have no qualms about letting the
>megacorps exterminate any xenophobic populations it didn't need for study
>or whatever (off camera, of course). OTOH this would probably mostly have
>already happened in the early Imperium (expansion/consolidation) era.
>
>
>> All these primitive natives languishing in barbarity on this garden
>> world. If just a million of us moved there, we could help them make
>> use of their planet - they could show us the dangers of their ecosystem,
>> we could share with them the benefits of technology, education,
>> medicine - think what we could do together! But no, the Imperial
>> Government won't let us, they've made all that world beyond the
>> starport fence a restricted area...
>
>  Couple of these mentioned in the library data already I believe. (Can't
>recall specific references right now.)
>
>> Tainted atmospheres. On a world with a population in the billions,
>> environmental mismanagement can create environmental taints.
>> The original CT world generation tables seemed to assume this -
>> you almost needed a bad atmosphere to attain the "Industrial"
>> trade code.
>
>  TNE world generation IIRC just flat out stated you need a tainted
>atmosphere to qualify as an industrial world. Considering the usual amount
>of environmental awareness possessed by the megacorps, most In worlds
>probably would have tainted atmospheres, but I still think the rule is
>just a bit too stict.
>  Could some low pop garden worlds with tainted Atm:s then be former In
>worlds abandoned ceturies ago, after their environments became just too
>spoiled to live in. (An image of vast deserted TL 9-10 skyscrapers/arcos
>with their slowly decaying tops lost in a yellowish toxic haze. I sense a
>major story hook here.)
>
>> Environmental catastrophes could also occur. Say the addition of
>> a Terran (or Reginan, or Efatian, or whatever) fungus into the local
>> ecosystem had some synergistic effect, and suddenly mutant
>> sporulating mosses are clogging the air from pole to pole
>> with borderline toxic allergens. Or worse - the albedo or ozone layer
>> suffers a catastrophic change, and the world gradually goes from
>> garden to minimally habitable to hostile. The inhabitants have, by that
>> time, spent billions of Cr on factories, starports, orbital facilities -
>> they're not only stuck here, they (think they) know what went wrong
>> and with some work they can fix it. If they can keep up with the
>> environmental changes, they may stay on the try and stop or reverse
>> them. A heavily populated planet in the midst of an unexpected
>> economic cataclycsm...owch!
>
>  Harry Harrison's Deathworld series comes to mind. Maybe a few
>hundred/thousand stubborn colonists eking out an existence in an ecosystem
>made ultrahostile by human meddling.
>
>> Uninhabitable planets: remember this isn't the only feature of the
>> solar system, just the one they put the starport on. The population
>> could be living in orbital colonies, in a generation ship with a busted
>> main drive, whatever. That planet with an insidious atmosphere and
>> a population of three billion - the only thing down on that planet
>> are the duranium mines. Everyone else is living on the tech level
>> fifteen orbital habitats they bought from Rhylanor. Since people live
>> in the volume of an orbital city (instead of on the surface, like a
world)
>> you can put a lot of people in a great big bubble in the sky.
>
>  A vacuum rockball world, probably in the outer system, with nothing but
>an A class starport on it The population living in a string of fused
>asteroids and cometary nuclei laced by geneered plantlife. (Yes, I'm
>ripping off Hyperion here.)
>
>> (By my calculations, if you tunnel rooms into an asteroid less than
>> 25 km in diameter, you'll have enough room to give each of 3 billion
>> people more than 2000 cubic meters of space each. Some space will
>> have to go for bracing and life support, but that sure beats a stateroom
>> at what - 54 cubic meters?)
>
>  The space allocation is, if anything, generous. I'd say you can stuff
>closer to 10 billion into a rock like that, if it's totally hollowed out,
>and you're not too concerned about the occasional colonist losing his
>marbles.
>  What this is, is damned expensive, but it might be done for example if
>you need a lot of people there because of the system's strategically
>important location.
>
>-------------
>Eppu Tuominen
>eptitu@utu.fi
>-------------
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:58:54 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous... 

> > << ObTrav:  Has anyone had players add similar "defensive"
> >  items to vehicles used on planet? Obviously, GURPS allows
> >  this with its Car Wars milieu but what about T4/TNE/MT?
> >   >>
> > 
> > I have the old Space Gamer article about the Omni-car. James bond in space for
> > a mere 250,000 Credits!
> 
> Meanwhile, in RL, some US personnel reportedly attached Claymore mines
> to the outside of their vehicles in Vietnam.  Did quite a number on
> attacking infantry.  Of course, if the vehicle wasn't shielded from the
> blast (e.g., by lots of sandbags), the Claymore would do quite a number
> on the _vehicle_, as well....

Claymores are a shaped charge.  On the front of it, it says 'Point Toward
Enemy'.  Just follow the directions, and they won't hurt you.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:12:19 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: CLAY-MORE!

I do not believe that is correct, sir.  I was in the United States Army and
they trained us not only to reel the cord out all of the way but to also
seek cover and yell "Claymore!" for any other friendly troops so as not to
be harmed by the mine.  It may be shaped, but C4 packs a wallop
concussion-wise on soft targets and I don't think there is any guarantee
that ALL of the pellets/shrapnel inside will go in the desired direction.

- --Clif
>
>Claymores are a shaped charge.  On the front of it, it says 'Point Toward
Enemy'.  Just follow the directions, and they won't hurt you.
>
>Keven
>
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:45:02 +1000 (EST)
From: JEFFREY MALONE <j1.malone@student.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
 
> Claymores are a shaped charge.  On the front of it, it says 'Point Toward
 Enemy'.  Just follow the directions, and they won't hurt you.
> 
Either you are joking or shockingly ignorant.  The claymore has a 10 m
danger zone which you don't want to be inside, quite apart from the lethal
fragmentation zone (which is, IIRC, 700 mils centred on the axis of the
mine out to 25m, with the fragmentation cone being between 1m and 2m off
the ground at 25 m, given that the mine is sighted correctly).  You don't
want to be behind the mine either, when the backing plate of the shaped
charge flies backwards at a rapid rate of knots.  On another issue, to
employ the weapon correctly, there must be some seperation between the
rear of the mine and a large solid object, as the reflection of the shock
wave interferes with the formation of the fragmentation cone.  1m was what
I was taught, but I can't say that I've seen it written down.  This is not
to say that the mine won't go off, but just not as well as it should.

On a related matter, I had heard stories from Vietnam of patrols finding
bodies of VC with their heads blown off, with the remnants of the head
lying some distance behind the body.  The story goes that the VC would
come up to a defensive position, grab the mines (by snipping the firing
cord), and dury-rig piezo electric triggers on the mine.  Pity that they
didn't consider the Newtonian reaction forces.  Never could work out
whether this was true, or whether somebody was having a lend of me.

My 2 CR worth

Jeff Malone (aka Academician Boris Kalashnikov) 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:15:43 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Claymore Details

I need more details.  I'm having trouble picturing what happened and what
you meant by Newtonian forces.

- --Clif

>On a related matter, I had heard stories from Vietnam of patrols finding
>bodies of VC with their heads blown off, with the remnants of the head
>lying some distance behind the body.  The story goes that the VC would
>come up to a defensive position, grab the mines (by snipping the firing
>cord), and dury-rig piezo electric triggers on the mine.  Pity that they
>didn't consider the Newtonian reaction forces.  Never could work out
>whether this was true, or whether somebody was having a lend of me.
>
>My 2 CR worth
>
>Jeff Malone (aka Academician Boris Kalashnikov)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:32:24 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1279

> Subject: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
> 
> BBC News Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 21:53 GMT
[snip]
> ObTrav:  Has anyone had players add similar "defensive"
> items to vehicles used on planet? Obviously, GURPS allows
> this with its Car Wars milieu but what about T4/TNE/MT?

I run a TNE game, ya ya ya boo hiss the heritic, and I'm a great beleive
of personal defence weapons on starships.  Weapons which are essentially
useless in starship combat but make great, "GET THE HELL AWAY FROM MY
SHIP!" weapons.

I took my inspiration from the Milenium Falcon's popdown blaster. 
Laser's zap to much power and offer no penetration so my prefered weapon
of choice is a co-axial 30mm High velocity GL with a 200 round belt,
firing at 5 grenades per round, and a 10mm Gauss Rifle firing at a ROF
of 50 with at 20,000 round cassette.  The Gauss can shread anything in
light battledress at a range of over 250 meters and the 30mm GL can take
out most light and moderately armored vehicles.  The mounts are slaved
to the laser turrets or the MFD and possess advanced stabilization
allowing them to be fired at any speed with no to hit modifications.

The whole thing costs nearly .5 of a MCr but I figure it's cheaper than
replacing a ship when some dip sh*t TED decides he wants your boat.

Derek "TNE Heathen" Stanley

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:54:02 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > > << ObTrav:  Has anyone had players add similar "defensive"
> > >  items to vehicles used on planet? Obviously, GURPS allows
> > >  this with its Car Wars milieu but what about T4/TNE/MT?
> > >   >>
> > >
> > > I have the old Space Gamer article about the Omni-car. James bond in space for
> > > a mere 250,000 Credits!
> >
> > Meanwhile, in RL, some US personnel reportedly attached Claymore mines
> > to the outside of their vehicles in Vietnam.  Did quite a number on
> > attacking infantry.  Of course, if the vehicle wasn't shielded from the
> > blast (e.g., by lots of sandbags), the Claymore would do quite a number
> > on the _vehicle_, as well....
> 
> Claymores are a shaped charge.  On the front of it, it says 'Point Toward Enemy'.  Just follow the directions, and they won't hurt you.
> 
When you strap it onto your 2 1/2 ton truck, the fact that the majority
of the blast goes out doesn't help your thin-skinned vehicle (unless you
have provided soem ballast to absorb that part of the blast that is
directed against your vehicle).

My drill sergeant always said that, if you are within 50 meters of your
Claymore, you had better be in a hole, or behind some other cover.

> Keven
> 
<<snip sig file>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:04:10 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: GeoCities Watermark:  An Update

The change to the GeoCites watermark that I mentioned yesterday has bee
implemented.  After a couple of seconds, the "GeoCities" is replaced by
a lower-case "g", taking up much less space on the page.  This change,
which can now be observed on my Web site [shameless plug], may make
GeoCities a _somewhat_ less annoying free site host, if Freelance
Traveller does have to move.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:12:41 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Software Help Needed

I'm currently working on two applications: "Imperial Grand Survey" (IGS)
and "GT Shipyard" (GTS).

IGS is a domain-level generation and mapping program, written to store and
print system-level data. It is essentially finished, except for an
annoying memory bug that keeps crashing like a beta of Windows 95. If
anyone out there has experience debugging memory problems in THINK Pascal
(Symantec) I'd appreciate hearing from you.

GTS is, as the name suggests, a GURPS Traveller starship CAD program.
Think of QSDS for GT: quick, simple, and straight-forward. I need someone
familiar with GT starships to run it through its paces and report
shortcomings, bugs, etc. (Note: this means doing things like calculating
the design yourself to double-check my math, and similar boring
gearhead-type things.)

Preference given to previous beta testers, if you're interested.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:28:35 -0800
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Claymore Details

Clif wrote:

> I need more details.  I'm having trouble picturing what happened and what
> you meant by Newtonian forces.
>
> --Clif

That would be every force has an equal and opposite force.  In this case, the
claymore fires a cone in one direction and the backing plate in the other.
Hold it up to your face and you're in trouble.

>
>
> >On a related matter, I had heard stories from Vietnam of patrols finding
> >bodies of VC with their heads blown off, with the remnants of the head
> >lying some distance behind the body.  The story goes that the VC would
> >come up to a defensive position, grab the mines (by snipping the firing
> >cord), and dury-rig piezo electric triggers on the mine.  Pity that they
> >didn't consider the Newtonian reaction forces.  Never could work out
> >whether this was true, or whether somebody was having a lend of me.
> >
> >My 2 CR worth
> >
> >Jeff Malone (aka Academician Boris Kalashnikov)
> >
> >

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:42:14 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

>Meanwhile, in RL, some US personnel reportedly attached Claymore mines
>to the outside of their vehicles in Vietnam. ...

Heyyyy... I was in a T2000 game where my group did the same thing on one
occasion, when we were faced with a platoon of soviet infantry. Our
explosives "expert" strapped a claymore to the front grill of a
deuce-and-a-half. It killed the driver and the passenger when it went off,
and wrecked the truck.

The "expert" (in real life a veteran of the war in Vietnam) himself was in
the bed of the truck with a daisy chain of fragmentation grenades. This was
several grenades strung together with wire through the pins.

He planned on the truck driving through the hole created by the claymore,
after which he could fling the grenades out the back amongst the troops.

Unfortunately for him, the concussion of the claymore caused him to fall
with the grenades, pulling the pins in the process. Boom, boom, boom ...
boom boom BOOM!

My character was lucky enough to have been dropped off in high grass about
300 meters away in order to provide covering fire with a SAW. Needless to
say, there wasn't much left to cover. ;-)

Gosh I miss that game.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:58:57 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: T2000

I would have loved T2000 more, but when I played it I was living in an Army
barracks and we all had had enough of the Army throughout the rest of the
week!  LOL!

So, we got off on Traveller 2300 A.D. and MegaTraveller.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...


>>Meanwhile, in RL, some US personnel reportedly attached Claymore mines
>>to the outside of their vehicles in Vietnam. ...
>
>Heyyyy... I was in a T2000 game where my group did the same thing on one
>occasion, when we were faced with a platoon of soviet infantry. Our
>explosives "expert" strapped a claymore to the front grill of a
>deuce-and-a-half. It killed the driver and the passenger when it went off,
>and wrecked the truck.
>
>The "expert" (in real life a veteran of the war in Vietnam) himself was in
>the bed of the truck with a daisy chain of fragmentation grenades. This was
>several grenades strung together with wire through the pins.
>
>He planned on the truck driving through the hole created by the claymore,
>after which he could fling the grenades out the back amongst the troops.
>
>Unfortunately for him, the concussion of the claymore caused him to fall
>with the grenades, pulling the pins in the process. Boom, boom, boom ...
>boom boom BOOM!
>
>My character was lucky enough to have been dropped off in high grass about
>300 meters away in order to provide covering fire with a SAW. Needless to
>say, there wasn't much left to cover. ;-)
>
>Gosh I miss that game.
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1280
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 17 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1281



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
Re: Claymore Details
Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
Re: Claymore Details
Gripes about the MT Trepida (was CT Ship Design (Alpine Class ...)
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: Claymore Details
Re: Claymore Details
Re: Gripes about the MT Trepida (was CT Ship Design (Alpine Class ...)
Re: Traveller Web site
Re: Traveller Web site 
Re: Traveller Web site
Re: Traveller Web site
Re: Traveller Web site 
Re: Nuclear Dampeners 
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
Re: Low berth lethality
Stutterwarp
Striker - Type 19:63 APC (TL 9)
G:T Far Trader Playtest :-)
Re: colonising hellholes
Re: Transporting fuel insystem

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:04:49 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

>I do remember that the G carrier in Striker was TL (10-11?) and mediocre. The
>TL 15 Marine Grav APC on the other hand was a real bear (I think it survivied
>all the way up to FFS2 as the Astrin).

Mmm, I don't think it was the Astrin. *That* APC only had an Armor Value of
40 and no weapons in MegaTraveller, while the Marine Grav APC in Striker had
an Armor Value of 56-73, a rapid-pulse fusion gun, and a tac missile
launcher. I think a closer analog would be the Empress Grav APC in 101
Vehicles. It has an AV of 60 and a rapid-pulse fusion gun (but no tac
missile launcher).

This brings to mind an old gripe: the Trepida, a grav *tank,* had an AV of
40 in MegaTraveller -- the same as the Astrin. What's up with that? Sure,
thery were both part of the RDA weapons delivery system, but what's the
point of a tank with the armor of an APC? Especially when said armor is only
the equivalent of 33 cm of hard steel (that's DR 924 to you GURPsies out
there, or about AV 16 to you TNEers)?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:08:03 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

>The "expert" (in real life a veteran of the war in Vietnam) himself was in
>the bed of the truck with a daisy chain of fragmentation grenades. This was
>several grenades strung together with wire through the pins.


I forgot to mention the player had nothing to do with demolitions in
Vietnam -- he was a "tunnel rat."

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:59:52 +1000 (EST)
From: JEFFREY MALONE <j1.malone@student.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Claymore Details

Errr...I don't remember which law of motion it is, but:

"For every force there is an equal and opposite force"

That is, the force of the blast and fragmentation going forward, is equal
to the force of blast and the back-plate going backwards.

I assume this is what you mean?

Jeff Malone (aka Academician Boris Kalashnikov)

*******************************************************************************
Jeff Malone
PhD Student - Department of Justice Studies, Kelvin Grove Campus, QUT
              Kelvin Grove  QLD  4052
Phone:        (07) 3864-3597
              (07) 3864-3188
Fax:          (07) 3864-3991/2 
*******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:13:56 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

I thought their front armour in TNE was 258 or something?

>
>This brings to mind an old gripe: the Trepida, a grav *tank,* had an AV of
>40 in MegaTraveller -- the same as the Astrin. What's up with that? Sure,
>thery were both part of the RDA weapons delivery system, but what's the
>point of a tank with the armor of an APC? Especially when said armor is only
>the equivalent of 33 cm of hard steel (that's DR 924 to you GURPsies out
>there, or about AV 16 to you TNEers)?
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:21:24 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Claymore Details

So are you saying that the frickin' VC held the Claymore in their hands when
they detonated it?

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: JEFFREY MALONE <j1.malone@student.qut.edu.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: Claymore Details


>Errr...I don't remember which law of motion it is, but:
>
>"For every force there is an equal and opposite force"
>
>That is, the force of the blast and fragmentation going forward, is equal
>to the force of blast and the back-plate going backwards.
>
>I assume this is what you mean?
>
>Jeff Malone (aka Academician Boris Kalashnikov)
>
>***************************************************************************
****
>Jeff Malone
>PhD Student - Department of Justice Studies, Kelvin Grove Campus, QUT
>              Kelvin Grove  QLD  4052
>Phone:        (07) 3864-3597
>              (07) 3864-3188
>Fax:          (07) 3864-3991/2
>***************************************************************************
****
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:43:28 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Gripes about the MT Trepida (was CT Ship Design (Alpine Class ...)

Yes, you are right: when they were reworked for TNE, they were really
reworked, and given better armor (though still not _awesome_ armor).

But in MT their AV was only 40 -- equivalent to 33 cm of hard steel, which
is about AV 16 in TNE. I was just trying to point out how *poor* the armor
on a Trepida was in MT by giving some numbers from other game systems. ;-)


>I thought their front armour in TNE was 258 or something?
>
>>
>>This brings to mind an old gripe: the Trepida, a grav *tank,* had an AV of
>>40 in MegaTraveller -- the same as the Astrin. What's up with that? Sure,
>>thery were both part of the RDA weapons delivery system, but what's the
>>point of a tank with the armor of an APC? Especially when said armor is only
>>the equivalent of 33 cm of hard steel (that's DR 924 to you GURPsies out
>>there, or about AV 16 to you TNEers)?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:08:40 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

>> Well, first of all, just because it has a type 6 atmosphere and some water
>> doesnt mean it's a garden world.
>
>Yeah, for one thing, there's a 50% chance that the amino acids have the
>wrong handedness. And the same goes for sugars. As I recall Earth has
>right-handed amino acids and left-handed sugars, but I may have that
>backwards.

There was an article in the October 1995 Scientific American, page 24, that
questions the "50% chance" that amino acids have left-handed chirality.
Left-handed amino acids were discovered in a meteorite and in dust clouds
in Orion. Left and right-handed amino acids respond differently to
ultraviolet light, and an astronomer hypothesized that typical stellar
radiation is more damaging to right-handed amino acids. This would lead to
life based on amino acids favoring the left-handed variety, if he is
correct.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:06:57 +1000 (EST)
From: JEFFREY MALONE <j1.malone@student.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Claymore Details

Did the VC hold the M26A1 in their hot little hands?  That's the way the
story goes...as I said, still not sure whether somebody was pulling my
leg.

Jeff Malone (aka Academician Boris Kalashnikov)

*******************************************************************************
Jeff Malone
PhD Student - Department of Justice Studies, Kelvin Grove Campus, QUT
              Kelvin Grove  QLD  4052
Phone:        (07) 3864-3597
              (07) 3864-3188
Fax:          (07) 3864-3991/2 
*******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:09:50 +1000 (EST)
From: JEFFREY MALONE <j1.malone@student.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Claymore Details

Oops, for that last one, I meant M18A1 (I think)...its been a long time.

Jeff Malone (aka Academician Boris Kalashnikov)

*******************************************************************************
Jeff Malone
PhD Student - Department of Justice Studies, Kelvin Grove Campus, QUT
              Kelvin Grove  QLD  4052
Phone:        (07) 3864-3597
              (07) 3864-3188
Fax:          (07) 3864-3991/2 
*******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:18:51 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Gripes about the MT Trepida (was CT Ship Design (Alpine Class ...)

>But in MT their AV was only 40 -- equivalent to 33 cm of hard steel, which
>is about AV 16 in TNE. I was just trying to point out how *poor* the armor
>on a Trepida was in MT by giving some numbers from other game systems. ;-)


Hey, waitaminute. 33 cm of hard steel is AV 66 in TNE.

Oh well, if at first you don't succeed.

Still, an AV of 66 for a high-tech tank ... well ... sucks.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:22:02 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Traveller Web site

Dear Folks -

Keven wrote:
>I was *shocked* to see I came in as 4 stars!!!!!!!!!

All the Reaver's Deep stuff (History, maps, UPPs, Library Data, sector
data) plus House Rules, PC's, Campaign Log, Das Boats (starships), CT & MT
PC generators - that's enough for three stars. The "special touch" is the
way that the Reaver's Deep stuff is integrated and extensive - someone
should be able to just pick it up and use it as a campaign background.

Now all it needs is a "Behind The Claw" treatment of every world...  (I
_am_ kidding, BTW.  ;-).

Out of interest, I would rate my site as 2 or 3 stars normally, due to lack
of volume and coverage (see the "Hyphen's Traveller Pages" page). The
reason I rate it as 4 stars (see the "Key to Traveller Jump Points" link)
is because of the Library Data, Tavonni (maybe - it is still incomplete),
and the Trav Jump Points page itself - and only because the last is an
*attempt* to include ALL Trav sites in one spot (80K+ and counting...!).
Sadly, like most address books (and White Pages, mailing lists, phone
directories, etc), it is never and will never be up-to-date - "But a man
can _dream_, can't he?"  ;-)

BTW, did you know that Tavonni's Aslan _Ftai_ company is modelled on the
classic Reaver's Deep "Soldiers of the Falling Night" regiment (I can never
remember how to spell Teahleakhoi)?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:38:30 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Web site 

> Keven wrote:
> >I was *shocked* to see I came in as 4 stars!!!!!!!!!
> 
> All the Reaver's Deep stuff (History, maps, UPPs, Library Data, sector
> data) plus House Rules, PC's, Campaign Log, Das Boats (starships), CT & MT
> PC generators - that's enough for three stars. The "special touch" is the
> way that the Reaver's Deep stuff is integrated and extensive - someone
> should be able to just pick it up and use it as a campaign background.

That's why it's there, as reference material for my players.  And it still 
needs a bunch of work done on it.

> Now all it needs is a "Behind The Claw" treatment of every world...  (I
> _am_ kidding, BTW.  ;-).

I've been doing system detailing here as I can.  It's taking awhile to get it 
done, though, since there's a *LOT* that needs doing...  Personally, I'll be 
happy to get the Drexilthar Subsector data done in any reasonable amount of 
time...
 
> BTW, did you know that Tavonni's Aslan _Ftai_ company is modelled on the
> classic Reaver's Deep "Soldiers of the Falling Night" regiment (I can never
> remember how to spell Teahleakhoi)?

Cool!

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:43:55 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Web site

At 12:22 pm 12/17/98 +1000, you wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>Keven wrote:
>>I was *shocked* to see I came in as 4 stars!!!!!!!!!

	OK, so I tried to resist, but my curiosity was too great--I finally
had to check to see what I rated. I blush! You're much to kind to
someone who's sorely neglected the upkeep and growth of his site ...

	However, I was impressed by the thoroughness of the links page.
Which brings to mind a project I've been meaning to suggest for some
time. We've all got links pages, all in different states of
maintenance. Old links, poor descriptions, no ratings. And they all
overlap to some degree or another. It occurred to me there was quite
a bit of duplication of effort there that could be saved simply by
having _one_ master links page. Would you mind terribly if I deleted
my links page entirely and just pointed to yours? 
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:44:16 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Traveller Web site

Dear Folks -

Keven wrote:
>I was *shocked* to see I came in as 4 stars!!!!!!!!!

All the Reaver's Deep stuff (History, maps, UPPs, Library Data, sector
data) plus House Rules, PC's, Campaign Log, Das Boats (starships), CT & MT
PC generators - that's enough for three stars. The "special touch" is the
way that the Reaver's Deep stuff is integrated and extensive - someone
should be able to just pick it up and use it as a campaign background.

Now all it needs is a "Behind The Claw" treatment of every world...  (I
_am_ kidding, BTW.  ;-).

Out of interest, I would rate my site as 2 or 3 stars normally, due to lack
of volume and coverage (ie. "Hyphen's Traveller Pages" internal link). The
reason I rate it as 4 stars (see the "Key to Traveller Jump Points" link)
is because of the Library Data, Tavonni (maybe - it is still incomplete),
and the Trav Jump Points page itself - and only because the last is an
*attempt* to include ALL Trav sites in one spot (80K+ and counting...!).
Sadly, like most address books (and White Pages, mailing lists, phone
directories, etc), it is never and will never be up-to-date - "But a man
can _dream_, can't he?"  ;-)

BTW, did you know that Tavonni's Aslan _Ftai_ company is modelled on the
classic Reaver's Deep "Soldiers of the Falling Night" regiment (I can never
remember how to spell Teahleakhoi)?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:59:33 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Web site 

> At 12:22 pm 12/17/98 +1000, you wrote:
> >Dear Folks -
> >
> >Keven wrote:
> >>I was *shocked* to see I came in as 4 stars!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 	OK, so I tried to resist, but my curiosity was too great--I finally
> had to check to see what I rated. I blush! You're much to kind to
> someone who's sorely neglected the upkeep and growth of his site ...
> 
> 	However, I was impressed by the thoroughness of the links page.
> Which brings to mind a project I've been meaning to suggest for some
> time. We've all got links pages, all in different states of
> maintenance. Old links, poor descriptions, no ratings. And they all
> overlap to some degree or another. It occurred to me there was quite
> a bit of duplication of effort there that could be saved simply by
> having _one_ master links page. Would you mind terribly if I deleted
> my links page entirely and just pointed to yours? 

That sounds like an idea.  Is it ok for me to put a link to your page, too,
David?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:18:50 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Dampeners 

>> I'd say it comes off as exactly the sort of radiation it would release
>> at normal decay rates. Just faster. That means mostly alpha and beta
>> radiation, with the occasional neutron and gamma. The alphas and betas
>> are very short ranged and will get absorbed by surrounding materials or
>> by a few yards of air. Their energy will wind up as heat.
>
>   Based on what? I thought it was already argeed none us has the faintest
> clue of how these things work. Or maybe you know something the rest of us
> don't? (Team blue! Team blue! Another Vilani agent here.)

Rule 40 E in Striker states specifically that in one fire phase (under 30
seconds) a nuclear damper will eliminate all radiation in its effect radius
and render the area "permanently harmless".

IIRC, Challenge also had an adventure where someone was using nuclear
dampers to decontaminate a nuked site.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:25:54 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

>BBC News Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 21:53 GMT
>FIREING ON ALL CYLINDERS


They showed pictures of this on local television.

My thought was, so what happens when someone shoots the propane tanks
under your seat ?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:55:51 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

Concerning the South African auto-defense system:

>They showed pictures of this on local television.
>
>My thought was, so what happens when someone shoots the propane tanks
>under your seat ?


Probably a little difficult. What most of the videos don't show is that
flames shoot out of _both sides_ of the car. At least that's what the South
African guy said.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:10:53 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

Dear Folks -

David Smart asked:
>>FIREING ON ALL CYLINDERS
>ObTrav:  Has anyone had players add similar "defensive"
>items to vehicles used on planet?

My PC's rebuilt the old standard CT/MT Resolve-class G-Carrier (the one
with the pointy front end) using superdense at TL 15, adding stealth
(emission level Nil), MT AF 40 all round, and a hardpoint for the RF-Y gun
they stored in the boot - is that good enough?

Plus the removable flashing blue light that the Droyne *had* to have...

They named the thing the "Unresolved". ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:17:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Low berth lethality

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> writes:

>I own neither MT nor TNE, but T4, page 115, indicates that the survival
>roll for a low berth passenger is 9- (DMs:  +1 for Medic 2+ attending,
>- -1 for End 6-).  These percentages match those from CT Book 2 (page 2). 
>Assuming that any ship transporting low passengers has a Medic 2+, this
>works out to 3/36 [1/12] chance of death, before modification for low
>passenger Endurance.  10% fatality sounds about right (this is, BTW, one
>reason why I don't design civilian ships with regular low berths).
> 
>OTOH, FF&S2 seems to indicate that TL 11+ low berths are generally safe
>(page 78).

IIRC, when asked about this Marc Miller said that there should be a risk
of dying associated with low berths. The problem with that is that there
is a canonical, safe alternative to low berths that is almost as cheap as
low berth and utterly safe: Shoot the passenger full of fast drug (Cr200)
and ship him in a bunk. On arrival give him fast antidote (Cr900) and he
can walk off the field fresh as a daisy, with no associated risks that is
not also present with low berths (ie. being helpless while strangers are
around). Arrange for special wakeup dormitories in starports and you can
even save the cost of the antidote by allowing the passenger time to sleep
off the fast drug naturally. That would be much cheaper than low berth
(especially since a realistic cost for low berth travel is Cr1500 and not
Cr1000). Depending on your assumptions (how much space does a passenger in
fast trance require?) dast berths could be a lot cheaper.

There are enough problems with fast berths that low berths could be a
realistic alternative to them, everything else being equal. But give me
ANY risk of dying in low berth and I would go fast berth any day of the
week.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:39:14 -0800
From: Justin Engler <jengler@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Stutterwarp

I recall seeing a post a couple weeks back mentioning 'stutterwarp'...I'm running a CT
era game with T4 rules and can't seem to find anything on the subject.  Could any of the
Traveler Gearhead (or maybe even not-so-gearhead) Gurus either point me in the direction
of a URL discussing it or perhaps offer a brief explanation of the pseudoscience
involved?  Thanx alot!

                        Justin Engler

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 03:59:58 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Striker - Type 19:63 APC (TL 9)

Type 19:63 APC (Tech Level 9)

   The vehicle has a crew of 2 (driver, commander) and carries 10 passengers.
It mounts a HMG on a pintle at the commanders hatch. No fire control installed.
Height: 1.65 m. Width: 3.0 m. Length: 5.7 m. Total Volume: 22.6 m^3. Weight:
10.45 tons. Flotation: yes. Ground pressure = 5.8. Price: Cr36,235.

   Movement: Road, 162 kph/135 cm; cross-country, 97 kph/81 cm; water 8 kph/
7 cm.
   Movement Effects on Fire: Move half or less, -4 FFP, no fire EFP; Move
more than half, no fire.
   Armour: Front, 27; sides, 10; back, 12; deck, 4; belly, 3.
   Target Size DM's: +2 low.
   Equipment: Sealed environment.
   Power: 0.7 megawatt fuel cell consumes 25 liters of fuel per hour; fuel
capacity
is 115 liters, enough for 4.6 hours. P/W ratio is 67; vehicle is Light.
   Weapons: see HMG on table, page 36. Basic load is 3000 rounds.


  Design notes: Power is per Book 8, scaled up with no efficiency improvement.
The fuel load includes the oxygen as well; divide replenishment by nine if the
consumption is of the hydrogen component only.

  The vehicle is under-optimized as Striker encourages extremely low APC's;
passengers require volume in m^3 equal to the hulls height (up to 2.0), so
a lower hull would be more efficient. A comfort factor (a la 2300 AD?) might
be desirable for those who feel that an M-113 actually is more spacious than
a BMP. Accessorization is up to the importer - the basic chassis provides a
fairly cheap hull with good battle taxi capabilities and a low logistics load.

  Also useful as a basic hull for explorers or prospectors without access to
an air/raft, or who want to maneuver under forest canopies, etc. By dropping
the "ten passengers" allotment basic life support could be added for three
people, who would then have a bit over a displacement ton of internal space
to share, and a quarter ton of internal cargo before dumping the HMG ammo.

  FWIW, the things can probably be crated at ~2 Dt each (10.5 st, of course):
the total volume includes the reduction for the radical frontal slope.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:36:38 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: G:T Far Trader Playtest :-)

According to the "Daily Illuminator", selected G:T Far Trader files will
be available for download today, and a playtest board will open on
Monday, 21 Dec 98.  As if we didn't have enough reason to subscribe to
_Pyramid_.... 

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:17:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: colonising hellholes

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>  
>> What makes you think that people with the required skills (which will
>> be about as common as various types of construction worker skills here
>> on earth) will be married to that sort of person?
>
>   Again I wonder if we're talking about the same universe. My
> understanding was that the majority of imperial citizens never leave the
> surface of their homeworld. Only the ones that do would be likely to
> possess required levels of vacuum-op skills, and only a fraction of these
> would be qualified to work on building/expanding/maintaining a first stage
> mining colony.

There are a *lot* of vacuum worlds and asteroid belts, many of which
have populations. Most of the skills we are talking about *will* be
common there. 

>   A further question: Is it your opinion that people never/rarely marry
> outside their professional circle and social class. (Now I'm starting to
> wonder if we even _live_ in the same universe.)

The kind of folks who do major construction work in remote places tend
to be single. 

>> BTW, I'd say that a good analog for this sort of thing is what went on
>> in Alaska when they were building the big oil pipeline and drilling the
>> wells on the North Slope.
>> 
>> People with families didn't go. Instead you had young men getting high
>> pay, and *not* taking vacations. They'd get time off (mandatory as I
>> recall), but they pretty much stuck to the theaters and whorehouses. 
>> 
>> And when they *were* working, they worked long hours. 
>
>   This is the picture I was proposing too. One thing these people won't be
> doing with a lifestyle like this is starting families and reproducing.
> (With people having permiscuous relationships left and right, a company
> policy of mandatory contraceptives would be pretty much a given.) 

Actually, some of them *did* stay behind, marry and raise families. And
once the facilities were built, the folks who moved in to maintain them
were more the family type.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:34:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>> In any case, they have excavvated large underground chambers using
>> nukes. I don't have the references handy.=20
>
>   Could you at least give me some rough idea of where to start digging.
> (Magazine, book, scientific/technical report?)

Project or Operation "Plowshare" was the program for developing
civilian uses of nukes. That'd be a good starting point.

>>The walls are stable because
>> it *doesn't* create the cracks you are thinking. Or rather, such cracks
>> as *are* generated, result in the rock being seperated from the wall
>> *by* the gases.
>
>  So where _does_ all that high pressure gas go?

It cools and winds up in the melt pool or deposited on the walls.

>> And in any case, you *would* want to line the resulting cavity with
>> *something* (concrete, fused rock, whatever) to ensure that it was
>> sealed properly and stabilized in case of undetected fissures in the
>> rock.=20
>
>   No doubt of that in any case. So add the cost of lining 4500 km^3 of
> caves with support structures to the bill. Now we're _really_ starting to
> get the figures up.

Lining is needed regardless of how you create the chamber.

>> First, check out the cost of excavating a similar sized cavity (say 500
>> meters diameter and a couple of km high) used normal excavation
>> methods. Nukes *are* cheaper.

>  Is that .5km diam. couple of km high(=3D2.5 km?) for the entire 5 billio=
> n? =20
> (0.39m^3/person, my friend is just about that volume crouched up, and
> she's small) I don't think so. (Moving around would be a bit difficult,
> let alone breathing since there's no room for life support.)=20
>   Anyway, nukes certainly are cheaper,but that doesn't mean they're cheap.

BTW, "engineering" or "demolition" type nukes will be *much* cheaper
than weapon warheads. For one thing, since there's no need to make them
as small and light as possible, you avoid a lot of the "fancy"
engineering that costs so much. They don't need to be ruggedized
either. At least not the way milspec gear does.

And I think the Imperium would be much happier if such nukes were
something that was too bulky or otherwise unsuitable for covert usage.

>> Third, you can create new cavities quite close to older ones. They did
>> tests on this. Heck, you can detonate then such that the cavities
>> overlap. Though that's rather tricky.
>
>  Blasting nukes with people in the next cavern? Now this is one reference
> I would _really_ like to see.

Probably at least a kilometer away. I'm not sure *I* would want to be
in the next cavern either. But since the Imperium will have *centuries*
of experience with this, I expect that they won't be any more bothered
than we are by someone demolishing a building a few blocks away. 

And I bet they move people out of the adjacent cavern for the blast
just in case. 

Obviously, you *don't* do the "overlapping" trick with caverns that are
in use. But if you are doing a series of overlapping caverns (to get a
"linear" cavern) by the time you get several caverns away, you ought to
be able to work in the farther caverns from the blast.

>> Check out places in the real world that started out as way stations.
>> Centuries later many of them have huge populations.
>
>   Yeah, and many others are stone dead. Besides, the terrestrial examples
> still have one big bonus. It's called air.

And as I pointed out, once you have recycling, expanding it isn't that
hard. And look at places like LA. Without importing water from hundreds
of miles away, the place would be a ghost town.

>> Mining tends to have the actual mine sites depopulate, but the nearby
>> "support" areas sometimes prosper on their own.
>
>   Wouldn't the "nearby support area" in this case possibly be the garden
> world one jump away?

The California mining camps *did* ship laundary to Honolulu, Hawaii. By
*sailing ship* no less! But laundries sprang up in Calafornia quickly
enough. Ditto for other "support facilities".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1281
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 17 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1282



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
Re: Colonizing hellholes
Re: Nuc Engineering
Re: Colonizing Hellholes
Re: Stutterwarp
T2000
re: Gripes about the MT Trepida
Operation Plowshare (was re: transporting fuel in-system)
Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...
Re: A Request.
Carbon Dioxide Taint
Re: GT: combat example, *long.*
Re: Colonising hellholes
Claymore or less

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:07:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In mail you write:

> Eppu Tuominen wrote:
>> 
>>   For "ignored" garden worlds we have at least:

> A couple more:
> *  Interstellar political considerations, such as the garden world being
> located within a demilitarized zone.
>
> *  Lack of useful resources (e.g., the crust is metal-poor).

Heck, wind up lacking the right trace elements, and it may be simpler
to go elsewhere. Folks settling "garden" worlds tend to want a
self-sustaining "natural" colony. Being dependent on mineral
supplements *forever* tends to discourage folks.

> Another reason for high-population vacuum worlds is strategic location,
> with the concomitant military bases, leading to the obligatory G.I.
> towns....

Frankly, vacuum is easier to deal with than bad weather. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:01:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Walter Smith wrote:

>  -The ones that got lucky, and grew big-time.
>  -Ones having so incredibly rich mineral resources, that it actually takes
>   this large a population to exploit it. (Works better for pop 7-8 worlds,
>   methinks.) 
>
>   At least for the vacuum worlds, I personally think we need some more
> explanations to complement these. (It seemed I wasn't totally alone in
> this, but I could be wrong.)

Someone did a cost projection showing that it'd be cheaper to build a
self-supporting penal colony than to pay for prisons *and* guards at
home. After all, they *aren't* going to escape. :-)

Or perhaps a POW camp during a war. Afterwards, converted to a regular
penal colony. 

A lot of these will stabilize or even die out. After all, the folks
back home aren't going to be all *that* worried about the conditions.

Some will grow slowly, and at some point they will become independent.
Probably as a matter of it's simpler/cheaper to let them go and find
someplace else to ship convicts. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:54:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

In mail you write:

> On a related matter, I had heard stories from Vietnam of patrols finding
> bodies of VC with their heads blown off, with the remnants of the head
> lying some distance behind the body.  The story goes that the VC would
> come up to a defensive position, grab the mines (by snipping the firing
> cord), and dury-rig piezo electric triggers on the mine.  Pity that they
> didn't consider the Newtonian reaction forces.  Never could work out
> whether this was true, or whether somebody was having a lend of me.

Well, I've heard that the Cong would sometimes turn the claymores
around to face back at our lines. That's why the *intelligent* troops
always ducked before pulling the cord. 

I've also heard of troops "accidentally" dropping some grenades while
on patrol. Said grenades being rigged up special with *no* delay train.
Pull the pin, and *boom*.

I've also heard of cartridges with C-4 instead of powder getting
slipped into the supply chain.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:20:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Colonizing hellholes

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Charles Collin wrote:
>
>>       In fact, I imagine that people raised on rockball worlds would
>> find the moist, teeming chaos of a garden world quite repulsive.  Having
>> bugs flying around you and small animals crawling nearby when you've never
>> experienced such things would be rather disconcerting, I think.
>
>   And just think of all the wonderful disads you could take for a
> character like this playing GT: agoraphobia, entomophobia, thalassophobia,
> autophobia, possibly pyrophobia, chummy/gregarious, the list goes on and
> on. I think this might be a whole lot of fun...

Even without the disads, they make great space crew. You won't catch a
vacuum worlder getting careless with life support or airlock protocols.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:49:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Nuc Engineering

In mail you write:

> Eppuo Tuominen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>   I agree, and I think Traveller space combat should take this into
> account. (I only have Brilliant Lances personally. It only adresses damage  
> to ship systems, and even this seems too wimpy.)
>   Some GURPS product had rules for ship personell irradiation. (I recall
> they were rather brutal.) Thought it might have been GURPS space, but
> leafing trough it now it seem I was wrong. May have been Compendium II.
>   Another question: wouldn't radiation levels high enough to quickly
> incapactate the crew do something quite nasty to electrical systems?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> IIRC (don't have it with me), the damage tables from High Guard included
> radiation damage from particle beam hits. One good hit could cost you
> 90% of your crew and a couple levels of computer capability. Computers
> with fiber optic backup were immune.

Actually, electrical equipment is pretty much immune to radiation
effects. *Semiconductor based* electronics don't handle high radiation
levels well. Tube based don't have a real problem with it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:12:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Colonizing Hellholes

In mail you write:

> Charles Collin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> One thing I think you may not have been considering is that humans
> get used to (and can grow to prefer) whatever environment they're put
> into, no matter how negative it may appear to those who live elsewhere.
> Once people have lived on a rockball for a while, they _will_ find it
> preferable to a garden world, as strange as this may seem to all us
> garden-world dwellers.  They will come to expect and be used to the
> sterile, controlled conditions and the stark landscape.  Most likely they
> will resist moving to anything different, as economical or "beautiful" as
> it might seem to most people.  This helps explain why rockballs, orginally
> colonized as small mining bases, can grow to have huge populations,
> despite the economic difficulties inherent in it. 
>
>         In fact, I imagine that people raised on rockball worlds would
> find the moist, teeming chaos of a garden world quite repulsive.  Having
> bugs flying around you and small animals crawling nearby when you've never
> experienced such things would be rather disconcerting, I think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Reminds me of Isaac Asimov's _Caves of Steel_ and _Robots of Dawn_.
> A detective from over-urbanized Earth trying to function on a wide-open,
> uncrowded agrarian world. His agoraphobia was the least of his problems.

There's a short story in Heinlein's Future History "It's Great to Be
Back". It deals with a couple who have moved back to Earth from Luna.
And they start contrasting the things that bothered them there with the
problems they run into on earth. They wind up going back.

BTW, the story was originally published in the Saturday Evening Post!

Also consider Beowulf Shaefer's comments to his friend Elephant in one
of Niven's stories. Colonists consider folks from Earth to be
"insufficiently cautious". 

Folks on vacuum worlds will check pressure at hatches the way city
folks look both ways before crossing the street!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:04:12 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Stutterwarp

>I recall seeing a post a couple weeks back mentioning 'stutterwarp'...I'm
>running a CT
>era game with T4 rules and can't seem to find anything on the subject.
>Could any of the
>Traveler Gearhead (or maybe even not-so-gearhead) Gurus either point me in
>the direction
>of a URL discussing it or perhaps offer a brief explanation of the
>pseudoscience
>involved?  Thanx alot!
>
>                        Justin Engler

Borrowed from Pould Anderson and other SF authors. Appeared originally in
Traveller 2300 but was included as an alternative tech in FF&S I.
Basically you quantum jump your ship a tiny distance and then do it
repeatedly at high frequency to move the ship without giving it any
momentum etc. It is good for gaming because the ship move like playing
pieces without vectors, there is a set top speed etc. High gravity reduces
the jumplength drastically to sublight and there's another treshold when
the performance gets less than ordinary rockets (whatever that means).

After travelling for 7.7 lightyears or so you have to discharge by spending
time inside a gravitywell to forbid the ships from just moving in whatever
directio they like. This 7.7 ly limit was supposed to be a law of nature.

David Nilsen (I think) wrote an excellent article in Challenge about the
"relativistic" effects of viewing a stutterwarping ship at above lightspeed
pseudovelocity.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:04:41 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: T2000

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:58:57 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: T2000
I would have loved T2000 more, but when I played it I was living in an Army
barracks and we all had had enough of the Army throughout the rest of the
week!  LOL!
*********
I was in an army barracks as well, but we played a lot of T2K

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:38:33 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Gripes about the MT Trepida

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes, you are right: when they were reworked for TNE, they were really
reworked, and given better armor (though still not _awesome_ armor).

But in MT their AV was only 40 -- equivalent to 33 cm of hard steel, which
is about AV 16 in TNE. I was just trying to point out how *poor* the armor
on a Trepida was in MT by giving some numbers from other game systems. ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's possible that the Trepida was more of a "Tank Destroyer" than a
tank - a vehicle with the main gun of a tank, but the armor (and more
importantly, the performance and cost) more appropriate to a lighter
vehicle.

Maybe it was built during a time when tactical doctrine was that a hit
would kill a tank, no matter what armor it was carrying - your defense
was speed, maneuver and tactics rather than taking the hits. American
naval vessels could be built with a lot more armor than they are, but
they're built with the idea that a solid hit will kill a ship regardless,
so why get lots of armor?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:50:16 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Operation Plowshare (was re: transporting fuel in-system)

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>   Could you at least give me some rough idea of where to start digging.
> (Magazine, book, scientific/technical report?)

Project or Operation "Plowshare" was the program for developing
civilian uses of nukes. That'd be a good starting point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IIRC, Operation Plowshare had one big project in mind, a project that
indicates where the operation's name came from: they wanted to
use nukes to "plow" a ditch from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico.

A sea-level canal across Central America - dug with overlapping nuclear
explosions. The damage and disruption would have been similar to
that caused by a conventional construction project of that scale,
but the project would have been completed in a miniscule fraction of the
time. The Operation Plowshare people may have been overly optimistic
when calculating the effects of mass evacuations and radioactive
contaminiation cleanup efforts.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:38:35 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

In a message dated 12/16/98 8:08:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
yikes@evansville.net writes:

<< Mmm, I don't think it was the Astrin. *That* APC only had an Armor Value of
 40 and no weapons in MegaTraveller, while the Marine Grav APC in Striker had
 an Armor Value of 56-73, a rapid-pulse fusion gun, and a tac missile
 launcher. I think a closer analog would be the Empress Grav APC in 101
 Vehicles. It has an AV of 60 and a rapid-pulse fusion gun (but no tac
 missile launcher).
 
 This brings to mind an old gripe: the Trepida, a grav *tank,* had an AV of
 40 in MegaTraveller -- the same as the Astrin. What's up with that? Sure,
 thery were both part of the RDA weapons delivery system, but what's the
 point of a tank with the armor of an APC? Especially when said armor is only
 the equivalent of 33 cm of hard steel (that's DR 924 to you GURPsies out
 there, or about AV 16 to you TNEers)? >>

Sorry; I'm TNE-T4 "challenged"...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:42:10 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

In a message dated 12/16/98 10:35:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
frankie@mundens.gen.nz writes:

<< 
 My thought was, so what happens when someone shoots the propane tanks
 under your seat ?
 
  >>

You go boom...? In the U.S. I would rather spew teargas/pepperspray, and
diepacks, so I don't get sued...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:45:48 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: And you thought the U.S. was dangerous...

In a message dated 12/17/98 5:14:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< I've also heard of cartridges with C-4 instead of powder getting
 slipped into the supply chain. >>

that's an old spook trick when you think someone is stealing your ammo....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:52:29 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: A Request.

In a message dated 12/16/98 4:05:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:

<< This request isn't meant to patronise anyone, or even an attempt to
 'censor' people's right to free speech (a right that some on the TML do not
 actually have). It is a request for us to be mature, civilised and to
 remember what the TML is here for, when we compose our posts.
 
 Best Regards, >>

Ob Traveller: You don't think that this doesn't happen on the Imperialnet
everytime the Imperium goes to war?....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:02:35 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Carbon Dioxide Taint

An odd environmental hazard. Seems a dormant volcano in California is 
causing carbon dioxide to seep into the soil in the surrounding area. During 
wintertime the snow pack concentrates the CO2 seeping out, and under 
some conditions the concentrations can reach fatal levels. 

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9812/16/mammoth.enn/ is the
web page.

Obtrav: An example of a possible "taint" for tainted atmosphere worlds
in action.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:34:18 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: combat example, *long.*

hal@buffnet.net on 12/17/98 04:19:40 AM

To:   GURPSnet-l@io.com
cc:   ashock@gte.net, ajackson@molly.iii.com, theherald@juno.com,
      chaslimd@hotmail.com, cmdrx@magicnet.net, Aerron Winsor/IAS, "David
      L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net>
Subject:  GT: combat example *LONG*




 it was shown that the Max sensor ranges were equal to
(according to GURPS VEHICLES second edition):
PESA scan rating + 9(worst penalty allowed before scan is impossible) +
size modifer of largest ship - Stealth features.
**************
rolls are still allowed for each ship scanning to find every ship in the
example, the CVE gets to roll to detect the CA and each of the DDs.  the
other side gets to roll 4 times to detect the CVE.



  Scenario shows where the CVE detected the CA at a range outside of the
detection envelope versus the CVE, but inside the detection envelope of the
CVE versus the CA.
CVE moves closer to the CA.  Initially, in the example I gave of long
ranged sensors and how they work, the CVE detected the CA at the the long
long range equal to a value of 57.  This is 4,500,000 miles, or 450 hexes.
 Maintaining that contact, the CVE speeds up to max accelleration.
Assuming that the vector is speed 12 to start with...
***************
but vector is 0 compared with the CA, correct?



Turn 1: CVE begins to plan the attack.  It takes approximately 2 more turns
to make the plans.  Plans include the following:
 A)  Only one attack run is to be made.
 B)  A rendevouz point has been picked for the fighters to meet up with the
CVE.
 C)  the fighters are go be launched and accelerate like mad for two turns,
and slow down as they get closer to the Enemy CA - they are to maintain
laser comm links for the tactical information feeds
 D) CVE is to build a high Delta-V by accelerating a full 6g's and launch
from a distance of 186 hexes.
Turn  Velocity     Distance
 #     now          From
                    Target
0)      12           450       CVE was shadowing the CA group.  Remember:
CVE is
1)      12     450        maintaining course and speed relative to CA
group.
2)      18            438
3)      24            420
4)      30            396
5)      36            366
6)      42            330
7)      48            288
8)      54            240
9)      60            186


the numbers I get are slightly different, should work out the same for the
plan though.

Turn  Velocity     Distance
 #     now          From
                    Target
0)      0        450       CVE was shadowing the CA group.
1)      0           450        maintaining course and speed relative to CA
group.
2)      6        444
3)      12            432
4)      18            414
5)      24            390
6)      30            360
7)      36            324
8)      42            282
9)      48            234
10)     54         180  launches here: total distance
                                            (other distance is
lateral/total separation)
11)     54+6       126       6/132
12)     54+12      72        18/90
13)     54+18      18        36/54    closest approach is 54 hexes.
14)     54+24      (36)      60/96    now infront of the CA

these numbers assume that the CVE wants to maintain max separation from the
CA and are accelerating 90 degrees from the basline course.


















  At a range of 186 hexes, the CVE launches 200 missiles.  This is what the
movement looks like for SIM-12's at a range of 186.  Oh, before I forget,
the CVE is now veering away from the CA in an attempt not to collide with
anything (such as Kamakazi fighters?) and maintain a 100 hex communications
link with the missiles as they are guided towards the targets.  Remember -
the CVE must be within 100 hexes of the missiles or they loose guidance
ability.
MISSILE PLOT:
Turn  Velocity     Distance
 #                  From
                    Target
9)    60         186 - zero acceleration used, this is turn zero for
missiles.
10)    70        126
11)    80             56
12)    90        -24
**********************
reworked MISSILE PLOT:
Turn  Velocity     Distance
 #                  From
                    Target
10)    54        180 - zero acceleration used,
11)    60        120  6 used 30 left
12)    60          60  0 used 30 left
13)    60        0  range of zero is needed to hit.

for more damage with a chance for a clean miss:
10)    54        180 - zero acceleration used,
11)    54        126  12 used 24 left
12)    54          72  6 used 18 left
                           (if the missiles are detected
                           at this point the CA can generate a miss.)
13)    72        0  range of zero is needed to hit.





Since the range is now -24 at the end of turn 12, I suspect that the
velocity vector of the missile is not 90, but in fact, 80 plus.  For the
sake of argument, let us be nice and just say 81.
*****************
range of -24 indicates a clean miss, the missiles can only (assuming TL12)
make up 12 hexes of vector and do not impact. this is to simulate the
difficulty of hits at high speeds in 3D space.


  On turn #9, the range is 186 hexes, or 1,860,000 miles.  This is a
distance modifier of -55.  Scan 41 + 12 hull size -55 range - 8 (radical
emissions control) results in a net penalty of -10.  This is safely at a
range where the CVE is impossible to detect by a scan 41 sensor!  After
launching missiles, the CVE is now veering off from it's original course it
used to launch the missiles.  This course will veer away by 6 hexes worth
of accelleration.  The closest the CVE needs to approach the CA is some 36
hexes away.
**************
one thing you didn't mention was the location of the screening DDs if one
is deployed 10 hexes aft of the CA it might detect.  lets see:

9)      48            234
10)     54         180  launches here: total distance
                                            (other distance is
lateral/total separation)
                                           (distances 10 hexes less for DD)
11)     54+6       126       6/132      -9/-9/-10
12)     54+12      72        18/90      -8/-8/-9
13)     54+18      18        36/54    closest approach is 54 h  -7/-6/-8

detection is fairly probable, but wether the DDs can do anything about it
is a moot point. a stern chase into that many missiles? I don't think so.



  Personally?  I can't picture point defense getting EVERY single missile.
Now, lets be nice and say that this attack was a classic t-bone attack.
The missile will only do whatever velocity it has when it hits times
6d6x100(5).  Assuming average damage, the CA will take in a single hit -
170,100 points of damage!  Assuming a DR of 37,000 for the CA, it will
still let through 162,700 points of damage.  With only 765,000 hit points,
this Cruiser can only take 5 hits before it is crippled, and 30 hits before
it is destroyed.
***************
the best velocity to get a hit is 60, 'only'  126,000 points of damage on
the average. 118,600 after armor. so 7 hits needed to cripple. better have
good PD gunners....

lets be generous and say the CA dodges 10% of the missiles.
190 left. say that each turret will always hit at 10+ and allways miss at
9-
further say that there are only 20 bays leaving 300  turrets for PD use....
ohoh, you are gonna need more missiles!!!
skill 14+14+12+0+4+10-39=15 3 missiles per turret.
If we adopt suprise rules that drops to only 1 missile per turret.

you can bet they are scared though!!!!!

it actualy works out nicly, SDB vs SDB = no damage to either unless they
close to energy range and start using lasers against each other instead of
missiles...have to think about it.

perhaps a rule like: 'if a weapon fires in the fire phase, it cannot be
used in the PD phase'

more tests are definitely called for.

 At the very least, the bonus for Point
defense missile fire should be +8 instead of +10.
******************
I am thinking allong the lines of +6



  Hope this example of big ship versus big ship combat helps.  It has
certainly opened up my eyes with respect towards how easy it is to detect
LARGE craft from long distances away, and how easy it is to make a high
speed run against such a target with a highly stealthed ship with missile
bays!
*************
or even fighters :)  I love being able to have fighters as a viable weapons
platform.



  Oh, by the way, unless my math is off, that ship travelling 90 hexes per
turn, was actually travelling some 1.25 miles per second.
*************
just a tiny bit off, use the relative velocity instead.  didn't make a
diffence in the combat, missiles are still deadly, PD lasers still stop
them.  formation rules definitely needed for escorting ships.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:34:45 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

 
> TNE Mk1 mod1, page 219 staes that reviving a low berth occupant is a
> Difficult test of Medical (Diagnosis), or Formidible if the passenger has a
> Con of 2 or less. A failure results in various nastinesses, from minor
> cosmetic problems to internal damage that will not go away without surgery.
> A Castrophic Failure kills the passenger. Assuming the Medic has a skill of
> 4, and an EDU of 6 (this would be fairly typical of someone with a term in
> Tech School and a term as a medic) for an Asset of 10. On a scummy Free
> Trader a likely Asset would be around 8. An Asset of 10 gives a Castrophic
> Failure chance of 2.5%, an Asset of 8 raises this to 9%.

  Smack... right you are. Another fine example of the unprdictable
workings of human synaptic structure: I distinctly remember looking over
that very page while searching for this stuff (because of the cool
picture), and I manged to completely miss it. Oh well, the info was fairly
small and inconspicuous anyway, only took about half the page with a huge
table in the middle...

  BTW an actual doctor, which reputable shippind lines promise would have
a minumum EDU of 9 (8+ to get into med school, +1 from the school), said
shipping lines also promise minimum medical skill of 3, so the person
reviwing you in a civilized area would have a medical asset of 12+. Not
that this alters your original point, since the fatality rate is still a
flat 2%.

  This brings up another question: Why would shipping lines in a civilized
area regularly have half their passenger capacity as low berths? Who in
their right mind would accept odd like this, unless the alternative was
slow lingering death by suffocation. (The latter is doom trade, and that's
another matter entirely.) Timer clubs also start looking a bit dubious. I
mean, if you intend to hang on for the next millenium while being thawed
out every decade or so, your odd of surviving seem quite bleak. Which one
to follow, game mechanics or game narrative? 

 Also, isn't the set price of low berth travel a bit on the low side? At
least in TNE a low berth takes up 1 d.ton of space and costs Cr 50000 to
install. Doctors don't work free either, whether you contract one from the
starport or hire your own. After these expenses you get Cr 1000 per low
passenger, the same you get from a discplacement ton of freight.  

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:48:00 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Claymore or less

Years ago I joined a T2000 game and was informed that an NPC Demolitions
expert was boobytrapping our equipment each time we stopped for what ever
reason. Appalled I demanded that this practice stop because not a single PC
(including myself) could disarm his booby traps and the NPC refused to show
anyone how to disarm. I Predicted he would die soon (by enemy hands) the
rest of the group disagreed and SURPRISE he died and we had to walk away
from our convoy of equipment and fuel.

	From my training in the military on claymores, I remember that the
claymore had a 10 meter kill radius at point of detonation and a cone of
high impact high speed ball bearings spreading outward from the direction
of placement (facing). Yes claymores could be posistioned outside of
Vehicles provided that IMO sandbags are used. The armor on an APC (pre
bradley) is aluminum (sp) a 50 cal round can penetrate this, so what will a
pound (if that is what is in a claymore, I don't remember anymore) of C4 do
to this armor. And if sandbags are not used, imagine what the noise level
inside the armored vehicle will be when you set off a claymore touching the
armor. A claymore on the outside of an armored starship.... really cool
idea. But as a GM I would rule eventually a weakening of the armor at that
point. More then likely I would not make such a ruling until around 10 or
more such firings at that point.  

	During a T2000 game My character was trapped on a building, below, on the
next floor massed a group of crazed Polish militia, I deployed a claymore
over the roof edge, lowering it to the floor below. I detonated it, taking
them out and almost causeing the roof to collapse under me. (I got real
lucky. Unfortunalty The GM decided to arbitraly 'kill' my character off.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1282
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 17 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1283



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1281
Re: Low berth lethality
Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k
Re: A Request.
Exhaustive Directory?
Re: T2000
Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint
Claymores: the official specs.
Claymores and Reentry
Happy Y2k year
Fire Support for Marines
Re: Stutterwarp
Background Music
Re: Fire Support for Marines
Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint
Re: Claymore Details
Re: Missiles from long range & scanners *long*

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:55:53 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1281

>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:06:57 +1000 (EST)
>From: JEFFREY MALONE <j1.malone@student.qut.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: Claymore Details
>
>Did the VC hold the M26A1 in their hot little hands?  That's the way the
>story goes...as I said, still not sure whether somebody was pulling my
>leg.
>
>Jeff Malone (aka Academician Boris Kalashnikov)
>
>

no he was not kidding, infact I had a friend in 'Nam who watched a VC carry
a rocket, set it up and 'kick' the rocket to launch it. (The VC was fried
by the launch BTW)

The VC used alot of people to carry out their attacks, training these
people to set off dangerous and deadly equipment with out telling them of
the risk, from claymores to using people with C4 strapped to them, to
filling a can of fruit with C4 and leaving it on the ground for someone to
pick up, to kick starting rockets.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:43:53 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Low berth lethality

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> There are enough problems with fast berths that low berths could be a
> realistic alternative to them, everything else being equal. But give me
> ANY risk of dying in low berth and I would go fast berth any day of the
> week.
> 
  It seems that in GT we finally have the first Traveller variant in which
low berth travel is actually something sane people might consider doing.
  
  The rules in GT state, that if there's a medic present with the relevant
skill at 10+, the reviwal is automatically successfull. (What the relevant
skill is, I don't know. The entry mentions medical, but there's no such
skill in GURPS. Could be eg. physician, diagnosis or el.op./medical.) If
no one superwises the process, the low-traveller must make a HT check,
where a critical failure results in the said traveller taking a dirtnap.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:47:41 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k

>>>>
Yah and I remember seeing a news story saying that the RCMP was not
allowing
any of it's members book holidays fro the last part of 1999 and the
first 3
months
of 2000 also.

Dave
>>>>
Being part of the IS department in a corporation, our manager indicated
that we should expect to celebrate New Years Eve Y2K in front of the
server consoles, just-in-case.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:58:13 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: A Request.

>Ob Traveller: You don't think that this doesn't happen on the Imperialnet
>everytime the Imperium goes to war?....

IMTU there's not Imperialnet.

Individual worlds have datanets, with differing standards for anonymity,
ettiquette, etc, but there's nothing like Internet newsgroups operating
between worlds. (For one thing, every xboat message has to have a single
address, and is paid for by the sender before it is transmitted.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:57:52 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Exhaustive Directory?

Does anyone know of a good exhaustive directory of links to good Traveller
sites?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:59:30 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: T2000

Hmm, wonder what made it so different for US?

We were in Alaska.

We were an Air Cav unit.

You?

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com <Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 9:11 AM
Subject: T2000


>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:58:57 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: T2000
>I would have loved T2000 more, but when I played it I was living in an Army
>barracks and we all had had enough of the Army throughout the rest of the
>week!  LOL!
>*********
>I was in an army barracks as well, but we played a lot of T2K
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:02:16 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint

Why fatal?  Do Californians breathe dirt?

- --clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:12 AM
Subject: Carbon Dioxide Taint


>An odd environmental hazard. Seems a dormant volcano in California is
>causing carbon dioxide to seep into the soil in the surrounding area.
During
>wintertime the snow pack concentrates the CO2 seeping out, and under
>some conditions the concentrations can reach fatal levels.
>
>http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9812/16/mammoth.enn/ is the
>web page.
>
>Obtrav: An example of a possible "taint" for tainted atmosphere worlds
>in action.
>
>Walt Smith
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:08:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Claymores: the official specs.

Guys (and gals), after rummaging through my old, dog-eared copy of
"FM 23-23: ANTIPERSONNEL MINE M18A1 AND M18 (CLAYMORE)", the following
quote comes from Chapter 1, Section 2, parts 4 and 5:

  "4. Casualty Effects
   
       When detonated, the M18A1 mine will deliver spherical steel
       fragments over a 600 fan-shaped pattern that is 2 meters high
       and 50 meters wide at a range of 50 meters. These fragments are
       moderately effective up to a range of 100 meters and can travel
       up to 250 meters forward of the mine. The optimum effective
       range (the range at which the most desirable balance is achieved
       between lethality and area coverage) is 50 meters.
   
   5. Danger Area
   
   a. Danger From Fragments. The danger area consists of a 1800 fan with
      a radius of 250 meters centered in the direction of aim. 
   
   b. Danger Area of Backblast and Secondary Missiles. Within an area of
      16 meters to the rear and sides of the mine, backblast can cause
      injury by concussion (ruptured eardrums) and create a secondary
      missile hazard. 
   
      (1) Friendly troops are prohibited to the rear and sides of the
          mine within a radius of 16 meters. 
   
      (2) The minimum safe operating distance from the mine is 16 meters.
          At this distance, and regardless of how the mine is employed,
          the operator should be in a foxhole, behind cover, or lying
          prone in a depression. The operator and all friendly troops
          within 100 meters of the mine must take cover to prevent being
          injured by flying secondary objects such as sticks, stones,
          and pebbles."

God knows, I disassembled enough of these things when I still belonged
to Uncle Sams Misguided Children (U.S.M.C.). :^/

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > I believe that "decimation" originated with the Roman legions.

    Of course it originated with the Romans! Who else would _need_
    a word that means "kill every tenth person"?  - Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:07:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Claymores and Reentry

>A claymore on the outside of an armored starship.... really cool
>idea. But as a GM I would rule eventually a weakening of the armor at that
>point. More then likely I would not make such a ruling until around 10 or
>more such firings at that point.
>
Wouldn't a Claymore burn off of the exoskeleton of the starship when you
entered a planet's atmosphere(if it has one)?  Not sure that it would
detonate, but at least it would burn up.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:09:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Happy Y2k year

As if you would be able to do anything about the problem, should it present
itself, RIGHT THEN and within the day.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Kimball <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: Canada's military on call for Y2k


>>>>>
>Yah and I remember seeing a news story saying that the RCMP was not
>allowing
>any of it's members book holidays fro the last part of 1999 and the
>first 3
>months
>of 2000 also.
>
>Dave
>>>>>
>Being part of the IS department in a corporation, our manager indicated
>that we should expect to celebrate New Years Eve Y2K in front of the
>server consoles, just-in-case.
>- Joseph
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:42:31 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Fire Support for Marines

The current 'Desert Fox' news coverage has gottne me thinking a bit about
Imperial military doctrine (a subject I think has always been woefully
ignored in Traveller books).  Specifically, the concepts of artillery as
practiced by the Imperium.

In Classic Traveller and in various articles in the Journal, mention was
made of MRL batteries being used by the Marines, and the availability of
Orbital Fire.  ISTR the Spinward Campaign book's writeup of the Duke of
Regina's Huscarles included dedicated Ortillery (orbital artillery)
starships.  Some later publications for TNE added some detail, but still
neglected support weaponry.  Some mention was made of cruise missiles, but
it was not clear if this was the standard MRL load or a special type of
weapon used in addition to MRLs.

And of course, we have mention of battlefield Meson guns; the ultimate in
indirect fire weapon turns out to be the most direct fire weapon possible!

So - what do you think is being used?  I think that if the Marines are used
priarily against low-tech (TL 8 or less) forces, then dumb and semi-guided
MRL rockets, supported with active-homing cruise missiles, would be quite
sufficient.  But I would think higher-tech enemies would be able to deploy
countermeasures to take out most any cruise-type missile, and these same
countermeasures would probably be bale to defeat most 'mass-assault' dumb
MRL attacks.

Dropping rocks from orbit is of course a much-loved TML subject, and would
perhaps be much more difficult to defend against, but to be useful in a
tactical support role it would require very solid control of the overhead
orbital space, and some DAMN GOOD targetting to avoid friendly fire
casualties.  I think the Marines on the ground would feel better if they
had supporting fire weapons under their direct control.

The battlefield Meson gun is a cool thing, but rather large and expensive.
Smaller Marine forces would need some sort of supporting fire too, and I
doubt the Imperium is issuing Meson gun carriers at the platoon or company
level.

IMTU, there is an ascending hierarchy of support weapons and options.  The
Marine squad will have grenades, some PGMP/FGMP weapons maybe, and perhaps
some man-portable TAC Missiles (sort of like miniature Cruise msisiles).  A
platoon would have the same sorts of weapon, with the heavy weapons (TAC
Missiles, PGMPS and FGMPs) definitely being present.  A company would have
the weapons of its subordinate units, and would have some grav sleds (small
one or two man air rafts) with heavier plasma/fusion weapons, larger TAC
missiles or small MRLS loaded with semi-active rockets.  IMTU, the Imperial
Navy fields assault transports for company-sized units (Marine Raider
Transports), so the company might be getting orbital fire support from this
ship (it carries a small Meson weapon and missile launchers).  Many times,
independent units of squad, platoon or company size are equipped with
battle dress to give them an edge and to make up for the lack of heavier
weapons.

At battalion level, the Marines start to truly come into their own. There
are battlefield meson weapons and armored vehicles available.  Only
battalion or larger sized units are equipped with APCs and AFVs; smaller
units are high tech leg infantry.  The larger units may still be equipped
with battle dress, too.  IMTU, the Navy fields assault transports for
battalions and regiments as well (Force Assault Transports and Regimental
Assault Transports), and also has more mundane non-assault troop carriers
that generally hold a regiment or brigade of troops (Marine or Army).  For
the most part, Marines IMTU are in assault transports, raider transports,
ship's troops on regular Navy vessels or garrison troops in Imperial
facilities.  While all military spacecraft can provide some form or orbital
fire support, assault transports and attack/assault cruisers are the ones
specifically designed with ground fire support in mind, and carry a lovely
array of weapons to make a Marine's life more pleasant.

If the Marines are facing a lower-tech force, the orbital support is
probably not needed (but might be used anyway juse to make a statement).
Those higher-tech enemies capable of defeating MRL rockets and TAC missiles
will tend to get pounded from orbit more more substantially before the
Marines attack.  This will of course signal that a ground attack is about
to commence, so sometimes the Marines will simply assault with minimal
preparation in hopes of surprising the enemy, relying on ECM to spoof the
enemy sensor nets.  In effect, IMTU ground battles between high-tech forces
sometimes resemble American Civil War/early World War I battles; the battle
is generally decided very quickly, or else it rapidly degenerates into a
meatgrinder that both sides have to keep feeding forces into to avoid a
breakthrough.  Except in this case the battle is going on over a 500 mile
area instead of a 10 mile battlefield, and the fighting extended into the
stratosphere and low orbit.  Not a pretty sight...

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:12:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Conley <estar@wrench.toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: Stutterwarp

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Anders Backman wrote:

> >I recall seeing a post a couple weeks back mentioning 'stutterwarp'...I'm
> >running a CT
> >era game with T4 rules and can't seem to find anything on the subject.
> >Could any of the
> >Traveler Gearhead (or maybe even not-so-gearhead) Gurus either point me in
> >the direction
> >of a URL discussing it or perhaps offer a brief explanation of the
> >pseudoscience
> >involved?  Thanx alot!
> >
> >                        Justin Engler
> 
> Borrowed from Pould Anderson and other SF authors. Appeared originally in
> Traveller 2300 but was included as an alternative tech in FF&S I.
> Basically you quantum jump your ship a tiny distance and then do it
> repeatedly at high frequency to move the ship without giving it any
> momentum etc. It is good for gaming because the ship move like playing
> pieces without vectors, there is a set top speed etc. High gravity reduces
> the jumplength drastically to sublight and there's another treshold when
> the performance gets less than ordinary rockets (whatever that means).
> 
> After travelling for 7.7 lightyears or so you have to discharge by spending
> time inside a gravitywell to forbid the ships from just moving in whatever
> directio they like. This 7.7 ly limit was supposed to be a law of nature.
> 
> David Nilsen (I think) wrote an excellent article in Challenge about the
> "relativistic" effects of viewing a stutterwarping ship at above lightspeed
> pseudovelocity.
> 
> 
> /Anders Backman
> Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se
> 
> 

The Computer Game Independence War has a stutterwap type drive. It is used
as a fast STL drive to quickly move from planet to planet. Their handwave
explains that you can't tunnel faster than the speed of light. 

BTW I highly recommend Independence War. It uses realistic thrusters and
physics for it's simulation. One training mission involved docking with
cargo modules and then setting a vector to a cargo hopper and releasing
the module. If your vector was off then your module missed. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:11:23 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Background Music

Soundtracks for Travellers

When one of my friends, named Dave, introduced the game "Traveller" to the
rest of us Army barracks rat gamers, he also introduced the playing of
background music to put players in the mood.  As it turned out, we found
ourselves exploring a drifting ghost ship.  The whole thing was very spooky.
The inside was dark and we eventually came upon a rather well-preserved but
grey figure sitting in one of the pilot's seats.  Trying to investigate the
cause of death, my character was scared witless when the supposedly dead man
opened his eyes and grabbed hold of my pressure suit.  The hair stood up on
the back of my neck and tears came to my eyes as my skin turned to
gooseflesh.  Knowing that no MAN could live in a vacuum without a sealed
space suit my character did his best to rip free and scramble in zero G back
to the warm comfort of the group's own lit ship.  What ensued was chaotic
and more fun than we had ever had playing Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.
While the game system's setting could have had something to do with it, I
suspect that the ambience of the gaming session was created largely by the
playing of Brian Eno's "Apollo Atmospheres & Soundtracks".  This CD has
tracks which make you picture yourself floating weightless in space, as if
in some kind of zero G ballet, and other tracks which make you think that in
the next ship's quarters you are going to find a man pinned in place,
subsisting off of his last oxygen, weakly crying out for help.  It makes for
excellent background music anytime your characters find themselves out in
the vacuum.

While I suspect that picking particular tracks for specific game sequences
can heighten the effect of background music on a game, I never had the
coordination to get an effort like that together.

For music with spoken lyrics, New Age seems to be most suited for gaming,
while the New Age instrumental music works even better. Movie Soundtracks
that aren't just a collection of pop songs, but rather ACTUAL original
background music make for the best gaming sessions.  Here is a list of CD's,
along with a corresponding description of the mood each puts you in, that
may add some serious spice to a campaign that is more bland than you would
like:

Anything by "Kitaro"
(ranging from the presence of aliens to an orchestrated battle)

Jean-Michael Jarre
"Rendezvous"
(futuristic music with pizzazz, boldness and strength)

Anything by Enya
(lullaby effect; great if you ever meet space celts)

"Full Metal Jacket"
(ranging from spooky to heart-pumping tunnel vision)

Also consider "Sound Effects" CD's and .wav files available for download on
the 'Net.  If you have a CD writeable drive you could put together a CD with
different tracks of sporadic, chaotic fire from a certain kind of weapon and
even combinations thereof.  Make copies of the CD and get your friends to
all bring their own boom box with a CD for their chosen weapon.  Have them
press play on their box whenever their character starts rockin' and a
rollin'.  If your parents, spouse or neighborhood can put up with it, your
characters can learn what it is like to try to communicate when the
deafening music of modern combat is reverberating through the valley.  They
might be less inclined to discharge their weapon, too, if you insist they do
this with the volume cranked up high, or, if they are head-bangers, they
might enjoy cherrying out the gas tube of their M-16A1 in full auto.
Remember to insert a magazine-changing sound file every 30 rounds or so,
depending on the weapon's stats.

What are YOUR Soundtrack Music ideas and favorites to...

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:25:38 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

At 10:42 17-12-98 -0700, Steve Charlton wrote:
>IMTU, the Imperial
>Navy fields assault transports for company-sized units (Marine Raider
>Transports), so the company might be getting orbital fire support from this
>ship (it carries a small Meson weapon and missile launchers).
<snip>
>IMTU, the Navy fields assault transports for
>battalions and regiments as well (Force Assault Transports and Regimental
>Assault Transports)

Sample ship design(s), please?


James

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:28:22 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint

CO2 is heavier than air, and so concentrates in the hollows. Breathing
it is not good.

There is a lake in Africa (Nigeria, IIRC) that sits on top of a volcanic
vent. CO2 seeps out of it and is dissolved in the deep waters. The lake
is very still with an inversion layer on top, and so the water
supersaturates with CO2. Every once in a while something like an
underwater mudslide shakes up the water, which then makes like a shaken
bottle of soda, and dumps TONS of cold CO2 into the atmosphere. It runs
down the valley and kills all animal life in its path. The last time it
happened I think it wiped out a couple of villages and all their
livestock.

Clif wrote:
> 
> Why fatal?  Do Californians breathe dirt?
> 
> --clif
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:12 AM
> Subject: Carbon Dioxide Taint
> 
> >An odd environmental hazard. Seems a dormant volcano in California is
> >causing carbon dioxide to seep into the soil in the surrounding area.
> During
> >wintertime the snow pack concentrates the CO2 seeping out, and under
> >some conditions the concentrations can reach fatal levels.
> >
> >http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9812/16/mammoth.enn/ is the
> >web page.
> >
> >Obtrav: An example of a possible "taint" for tainted atmosphere worlds
> >in action.
> >
> >Walt Smith
> >

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:30:06 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Claymore Details

Clif wrote:
> 
> So are you saying that the frickin' VC held the Claymore in their hands when
> they detonated it?

No, but when they were jury rigging the trigger, they were...this is why
impromptu explosives handling is considered such a darwinian thing to
do...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:58:33 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Missiles from long range & scanners *long*

hal@buffnet.net on 12/17/98 12:44:33 PM

To:   Aerron Winsor/IAS
cc:
Subject:  Re: Missiles from long range & scanners







  By the way - I have a few "problems" with the collision rules as they
stand now.  Do you realize that for fighter pilots willing to Kamakazi into
a fast moving ship, that they can easily destroy it as per the collision
rules?
****************
now we know why ships use fusion guns in the PD role :)

A Tigress has *how many* twin fusion guns?  average damage on a fusion gun
is 6d6*600(IIRC, notes at home) or 12,200 damage, more than enough to kill
(melt to slag actualy) a fighter. Problem solved?




  This needs to be addressed somehow.  It rightfully should include the
size modifier of the target - but to my way of thinking:  It should only be
1/2 the size of the target.  Why?  Because you are aiming for dead center
to hit right?
***************
I would agree only if 1/2 the fighter/missile size mod is allowed as well.
representing a bigger cross section trying to hit the target.





You have to guess which way the ship will attempt to evade.
Perhaps a case could be made of subtracting the Target's G rating from it's
Size modifier because you don't know if it will speed up, or slow down as
well.
********************
I don't think I can agree on this point, a high G ship already gets a bonus
from the tactical movement. if the target has more accell than the rammer,
it cannot be hit. it will just move out of the hex during the movement
phase (lower accels have to move first!!).

Dont forget the mods to skill for computers! (I think the mod is complexity
- -3?)



New revised collision rules:  Ramming skill + 1/2 target size modifier -
target G rating.  This way, missiles are not the "sure hit" that they are
currently, and... kamakazi fighters can't take out multi-billion ships with
their 10 million dollar craft.
Example: firing a missile against a 6g 10 ton fighter now looks like this:
Gunner skill + 4 (1/2 size modifier) - 6 (fighter's accel) = skill-2
Firing at CA = gunner skill +7 - 2 (g accel) = skill +5.
********
I would like the contest of skills to stay.


examples:
SDB missile vs TL 12 fighter: rammer skill(14) + 3(1/2 target size) + 0(1/2
rammer size) + 6 (computer) = 23 vs. target skill (16) + 7 (computer) = 23
even chance.

TL 10 fighter vs TL 12 CA: Rammer skill (4) + 7(1/2 target size) + 3(1/2
rammer size) + 5 (computer) = 19 vs target skill (15) + 9 (computer) = 24
good chance to miss.


I do worry that using this will mean that missiles will be even harder to
use against capital ships.  in your combat example even 200 missiles were
not enough to have a good chance of a single hit against a CA.

I was also thinking of having a lightspeed lag of -1 per 20 hexes from the
controling ship.



I am going to make me a PD dice rolling program.

the way I envision PD working,  take all the missiles ramming, and split
the PD turrets between them.
fire, with each turret rolling 3 times(once per weapon) or once with a
bonus to hit.
take the remaining missiles and split fire again.
fire, with each turret rolling 3 times at a -2 to hit.
take the remaining missiles and split fire again.
fire, with each turret rolling 3 times at a -4 to hit.
repeat as needed.

note that near the end of the cycle each missle may have more than one
turret targeting it (at a low chance to hit)
also note that crit fails start to become likely, I recommend that in the
case of large ships a crit fail will stop a turret from working for the
rest of the turn,( the GM can then determing exactly what happened to that
turret.)

I want to input the number of PD weapons, the starting to hit numbers and
the number of missiles.
for output I want the number of missiles hit, the number to penitrate the
defenses, and the number of malfed turrets.


here is an example:

a SDB with two laser turrets is engaged by 18 missiles (from 3 identical
SBDs)
gunner skill is 15 + 15 + 8 + 4 + 10 - 39 = 13 to hit
with 13s  2 hits
with 11s 2 hits
with 9s 2 hits
with 7s  2 hits are stlll likely
with 5s 2 hits possible but only one likey. 1 hit.
with 3s you might get one if you are lucky 0 hits probably one crit fail

total 9 hits 9 penitrations 1 crit fail (overheated weapon? GMs choice)

then the remaing missiles roll contest of skill vs pilot to hit.

Note that one SDB could not swamp the defenses by itself, while 2 SDBs
would likely get three hits (but not guarenteed)

You need a 3-1 throw weight in missile turrets vs PD turrets if you want to
overwhelm the defenses

Bay weapons do a little better, one bay can swamp 8 turrets by itself. or
get guarenteed penitration against 7 turrets.

This makes a 1200 space ship with a missile bay an eggshell with a hammer.
it gets a kill agaainst anything 800 tons or less, but can be killed by
anything with 6 missile turrets. (or even 6 missile armed fighters.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1283
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 17 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1284



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Darwinian
re: Carbon Dioxide Taint
re: Happy Y2k (OT)
TML  #1277 Housekeeping Maintenance:  Consumables
Re: GT: combat example, *long.*
Striker - basic APC (TL 7)
Re: Claymore or less
Re: T2000
Re: Missiles from long range & scanners *long*
ISARC-class Salvage Tender
Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint
re: Carbon Dioxide taint
Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: Background Music
Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint
Deadline for Aslan & K'Kree
Re: Fire Support for Marines

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:54:23 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Darwinian

LOL!  Separates the homo sapiens sapiens from the chimps, eh?

- --Clif


>Clif wrote:
>>
>> So are you saying that the frickin' VC held the Claymore in their hands
when
>> they detonated it?
>
>No, but when they were jury rigging the trigger, they were...this is why
>impromptu explosives handling is considered such a darwinian thing to
>do...
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:02:11 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Carbon Dioxide Taint

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why fatal?  Do Californians breathe dirt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The snow pack would cause a buildup, which would be released all at
once during snow melts (I believe). A camper wouldn't know the sunny
meadow uphill of him was dumping fatal CO2 concentrations on his
campsite until he woke up dead in the middle of the night.

The news report didn't list any fatalities (yet). They've got warnings
all around the region, and apparently the CO2 has caused quite a
bit of tree kill where it's worst.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:09:11 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Happy Y2k (OT)

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As if you would be able to do anything about the problem, should it present
itself, RIGHT THEN and within the day.

- --Clif
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For some systems, setting the system clock back a year will keep
things running (somewhat) until you figure out what's wrong. Minor
glitches may actually be fixable "RIGHT THEN"- things you thought got 
caught in your Y2K prep process, but slipped. 

Say you find out that a computer you communicate with wasn't made
Y2K compliant in time - you can temporarily sever communications
with it.

Regardless, if the system you are responsible for glitches up on January
1st year 2000, not being there working on it is the worst move you
can make - unless you're spending that day mailing out resumes for
your next job...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:11:40 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: TML  #1277 Housekeeping Maintenance:  Consumables

> I wonder if I can jump into the discussion concerning Logistics,
> Housekeeping and Maintenance.  I've noticed that no one seems to have come
> up with a definitive level as to consumables for human life support.  So I

Certainly.

> of calculations.  This would be enough basic food, water and staples for a
> year.

Extended Life Support has closed loop air, life support, food, and water.
FFS2 keeps all but food, for which there are seperate rules IMO appropriate
for only 'low' tech solutions (TL10- IMTU).  I rather think a high tech
solution shoudl be innovative like fauxflesh vats and/or something to do w/
cloning or maybe something else (any ideas?).  Enough that it won't
significantly impact ship design (especially invalidating previous designs) ;
).  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:34:42 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: combat example, *long.*

hal@buffnet.net on 12/17/98 02:04:13 PM

To:   Aerron Winsor/IAS
cc:   GURPSnet-l@io.com
Subject:  Re: GT: combat example, *long.*




Hello Aerron and list,
>rolls are still allowed for each ship scanning to find every ship in the
>example, the CVE gets to roll to detect the CA and each of the DDs.  the
>other side gets to roll 4 times to detect the CVE.
Technicallly?  I think that GT mentions that if you have multiple scanners
that can sense the enemy ship, that you only use the best one.  Ie, if you
have 20 scanners aboard a ship, (for whatever reason that might be!), that
you only use the best one.  Of course, if you have three different scanner
*types* that can be used, you use the best one of each.  To me, this would
also represent the same situation where you have 50 ships each rolling to
see an enemy ship. So, I "presumed" that if you have 4 sensor operators
(regardless of which ship they are on), you only use the best one for the
"group".
*********
according to the info I have rome Dave (I asked him that very thing, each
seperate ship gets a roll to detect each undetected ship.





  Also, if you consider the situation - unless those "escort" DD's are
closer to the CVE than the CA, you only need to roll for detection of the
"biggest" thing that comes onto scanner first.  It is possible that those
DD's are not going to be in range when the CVE gets a whiff of the CA.
Later on, when the CVE is getting closer, will it matter <grin>.
*********
just what I was trying to say.






>**********************
>reworked MISSILE PLOT:
>Turn  Velocity     Distance
> #                  From
>                    Target
>10)    54        180 - zero acceleration used,
>11)    60        120  6 used 30 left
>12)    60          60  0 used 30 left
>13)    60        0  range of zero is needed to hit.
>
I am not sure I understand what you are doing at this point Aerron.  I
think, if I understand you correctly, that you are tailoring the speed of
the missile such that it hits "Exactly" on the hex of the ship it is to
hit.  Am I correct?  I am working from the assumption that in order for a
missile to hit a ship, it must *pass* through the hex containing the ship,
not *end* in the hex containing the ship.
***************
yes you cannot acheive a hit unless you can end your movement phase in the
hex of the ship you are targeting. I was using your reasoning when I
brought this up during playtes, and was told that missiles must end in the
same hex as the target to simulate 3d targeting solutions, and long range
remote guidance factors.

I suspect that part of the reasoning is due to game ballance as well.



Missiles have the following chance of being detected at specified ranges:
Sim-10's   41 scan + 0 size modifier - 3 emissions control of TL-4/2 = 38.
Since 38 is greater than the range penalty for zero hex range, even the
best PESA cannot detect a missile at ranges of 0 or less!  Even an active
radar needs:
43 + 0 - 6 (tech level-4) = 37 - much worse than a passive detection!
*********
yikes, I forgot the stealth :)  Capital ships really need pickets with ecm
modules!!






>of accelleration.  The closest the CVE needs to approach the CA is some 36
>hexes away.
>**************
>one thing you didn't mention was the location of the screening DDs if one
>is deployed 10 hexes aft of the CA it might detect.  lets see:
The problem with your assumption Aerron (and I might be the one who is
wrong here) is that the range penalties for a ship that is 176 hexes away
is the same as the range penalties as one that is 186 hexes away.  DD's
that are that close in won't be able to detect the CVE!
****************
here are the numbers again:            CA/aftDD/forwardDDs
11)     54+6       126       6/132      -9/-9/-10
12)     54+12      72        18/90      -8/-8/-9
13)     54+18      18        36/54    closest approach is 54 h  -7/-6/-8

is is to detect the CVE  the CA and the aft DD have the same chance to
detect until closest appoach when the aft DD is one better (and the forward
DDs are always one worse.)  but with 4 rolls they should get a detection (I
dont think they can catch it though.)





  One rule change that might make this worthwhile?  Treat a missile swarm
as being equal to 1/5th their size as a "single ship".  Thus, 200 missiles
would be treated as a size 400 cf hull.  This would equate to a +3 size
modifier.  I used a 1/5th modifier because the missiles will not be
clustered tightly while in flight.  They will likely be dispersed by a
small amount, and then cluster closer and closer as they impact within a
zero range hex.
*************
now that is a Good Idea (TM).  I like that alot.





Your assumptions of statistics are um, a bit poor.  Statistically speaking,
regardless of a gunner's skill, 5% of all missiles fired upon a target will
miss due to automatic failures (ie rolls of 17 or 18).  Thus, a ship firing
200 missiles will miss with 10 right off the bat.
***********
these still clog up point defense though as you don't know they missed
until after the contest of skills.


 In order for a CA to
dodge, it must roll versus Skill + accel-target size modifer/2. For a CA
with a skill 16 pilot, Manuever 2, and size modifier +14, the dodge works
out to: 4/2 + PD4 = 6.  Statistically, this will result in dodging 10%.
Therefore, out of 190 missiles, it will dodge 19.
**********
isn't this a contest of skills?


This leaves 171
missiles.  Statistically speaking - 5% of those missiles will be missed due
to rolls of 17 or 18 (regardless of skill of gunner), which amounts to a
bleed through rate of 8.55 missiles.  Therefore, 18 missiles will hit on
target just by sheer numers alone.  And this, with only 4 missile bays!
********************
Justone thing is missing, the defender can retarget misses, and will
depending on skill get 4-7 chances to fire each turret, and deach turret
rolls three times for an inital bleed rate of only 0.05^3=0.000125 or
0.0125% not much chance of bleed through even on the first round of
targeting.

For each PD turret the target has you need about 6 missiles (depending on
skill and tech level) to swamp the defenses in one salvo.


I do agree that surprise modifiers are needed on the PD roll.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:36:16 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Striker - basic APC (TL 7)

basic APC (Tech Level 7)

   The vehicle has a crew of 2 (driver, commander) and carries 15 passengers.
It mounts a HMG on a pintle at the commanders hatch. No fire control installed.
Height: 1.2 m. Width: 3.3 m. Length: 6.9 m. Total Volume: 27.3 m^3. Weight:
15.0 tons. Flotation: yes. Ground pressure = 3.9. Price: Cr30,260.

   Movement: Road, 105 kph/87 cm; cross-country, 63 kph/52 cm; water 5 kph/
4 cm.
   Movement Effects on Fire: Move half or less, -4 FFP, no fire EFP; Move more
than half, no fire.
   Armour: Front, 9; sides/back, 8; deck, 6; belly, 4.
   Target Size DM's: +2 low.
   Equipment: Sealed environment. Three-quarters of a ton (0.75 m^3) cargo.
   Power: 0.4 megawatt gas turbine consumes 200 liters of fuel per hour; fuel
capacity is 400 liters, enough for 2.0 hours. P/W ratio is 27; vehicle is Light.
   Weapons: see HMG on table, page 36. Basic load is 3000 rounds.


  Design notes: As a slight variation, the vehicle is designed with "primitive"
composite laminates; weight is normal, cost is KCr 5.5/m^3, and Toughness is
only 1.5 rather than 2.0 for the generic TL 7-9 material at KCr 7.0/m^3.

  A basic battle taxi before accessorization; presumably equipped with large
roof hatches so the troops can actually endure a road march. Comfort is not
a consideration. Little customization is possible without the vehicle losing
the 15 kph bonus for "Light" status.

  Non-military uses are hard to think of for something this low. The vehicle
itself is a ~2 Dt box.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:37:51 EST
From: CPsyop@aol.com
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

In a message dated 12/17/98 8:47:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, samir@chisp.net
writes:

<<Large amount of snippage>>

> A claymore on the outside of an armored starship.... really cool
>  idea. But as a GM I would rule eventually a weakening of the armor at that
>  point. More then likely I would not make such a ruling until around 10 or
>  more such firings at that point.  

::LURKER MODE OFF::

A directional fragmentation mine is not going to cause much more stress then
reactive armor used on many modern AFV's today.  I can see this being standard
on military ships (great for clearing you LZ) and an option for those craft
involved in less-than-legal endeavors.  Engineering for such a system would
most likely consist of the fragmentation charges sitting in reinforced
recesses in the hull with retractable panels (protection during flight/reentry
as well as making them less obvious to starport inspectors who'd be less then
wild about having a ship-sized directional mine on the tarmac).  There could
also be an option to link them to the ship's sensor grid so your frag charges
can act as active armor, detecting incoming projectiles like rockets and
missiles and detonating preemptively to claw them out of the air with
fragments.

::LURKER MODE REENGAGED::

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:47:25 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: T2000

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:59:30 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: T2000
Hmm, wonder what made it so different for US?
We were in Alaska.
We were an Air Cav unit.
You?
******************
As we used to answer the phones on CQ: 'Charlie Airborne, Farthest north
Airborne unit in the free world, Death from above at 40 below, may I help
you Sir?'

C co 4/9th INF (ABN). either 172ed INF BDE (Ind) or 6th ID(L) depending on
the year.

At the time the Soviets had an airborne division, three armor divisions and
4 mech inf divisions, stationed acroos the bering strait. wartime mission
was to jump in front of them and 'Slow them down for an hour.' to buy a
little more time.

our unit history in T2K actualy looks good compared to our real world
mission :)

and yes we did play it during duty hours and call it 'traning in tactics',
just like war movies were 'Training Films'

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:01:53 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Missiles from long range & scanners *long*

>A Tigress has *how many* twin fusion guns?  average damage on a fusion gun
>is 6d6*600(IIRC, notes at home) or 12,200 damage, more than enough to kill
>(melt to slag actualy) a fighter. Problem solved?


Well no, because now you have a fighter-sized cloud of rapidly-cooling slag
coming at you with the same mass * velocity. ;-)

Of course, if you hit them out far enough, this isn't a problem. But if you
don't hit them until it is too late to get out of the way...

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:30:05 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: ISARC-class Salvage Tender

Has anyone had the chance (and inclination) to render/draw
any external views of the ISARC-class Salvage Tender found
in one of the High Passage fan mags by FASA? The only one
I've seen is a picture of a reflection of the ship on a
vacc suit's faceplate with all the appropriate distortion
due to the faceplate's curvature.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:29:04 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint

I thought plant life *liked* CO2....

Walter Smith wrote:
>
> The news report didn't list any fatalities (yet). They've got warnings
> all around the region, and apparently the CO2 has caused quite a
> bit of tree kill where it's worst.
> 

Greg Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:40:07 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Carbon Dioxide taint

Greg Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I thought plant life *liked* CO2....

Walter Smith wrote:
>
> The news report didn't list any fatalities (yet). They've got warnings
> all around the region, and apparently the CO2 has caused quite a
> bit of tree kill where it's worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Must be too much of a good thing. I can kill a tree with fertilizer if
I add enough of it.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:50:26 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

>"Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM> wrote:
>
>>There have been 3 versions of Traveller that have been published since
TD#21
>>(assuming, of course, that TD stands for The Dragon)
>
>Look! Look! There's an AD&Der on the list. Quick, get the meson guns ;-)
>
>On the TML, TD usually refers to Traveller Digest, as published by DGP
>prior to MTJ (MegaTraveller Journal).
>


In my defense I would like to point out:

1) I don't play AD&D anymore (well, not much, I crossed over to rolemaster 6
years ago)

2) I started with *D&D* (and still have the books)

3) It was 'The Dragon' articles on CT that sparked my interest in Traveller
to begin with, so naturally I still associate it with Traveller (even though
I haven't bought an issue in 15 years).  Traveller Digest was mostly
published while I was in the Navy - just getting the books was interesting.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:13:44 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

>  BTW an actual doctor, which reputable shippind lines promise would have
>a minumum EDU of 9 (8+ to get into med school, +1 from the school), said
>shipping lines also promise minimum medical skill of 3, so the person
>reviwing you in a civilized area would have a medical asset of 12+. Not
>that this alters your original point, since the fatality rate is still a
>flat 2%.
>
>  This brings up another question: Why would shipping lines in a civilized
>area regularly have half their passenger capacity as low berths? Who in
>their right mind would accept odd like this, unless the alternative was
>slow lingering death by suffocation. (The latter is doom trade, and that's
>another matter entirely.) Timer clubs also start looking a bit dubious. I
>mean, if you intend to hang on for the next millenium while being thawed
>out every decade or so, your odd of surviving seem quite bleak. Which one
>to follow, game mechanics or game narrative?

>

Well, statistically speaking there is a small but measurable chance that any
given skydiver's parachute will fail.  That means that every time we jump,
one of us may ...ahem, precede the rest to the ground.  Does that mean that
I won't jump again?  Nope...I don't look at the odds that way, or if I do, I
think the precautions that I take offset them.  (regardless of the fact that
much more experienced 'divers have rolled that 'catastrophic failure' before
me....)

I'm sure that 'timers' have the same mindset.  (although, I don't see how
they get quite the same rush....)

So far as the bulk of low-berth travel, I can see a lot of scenarios that
would support it.  Young people wanting to see the universe (on a budget),
someone with a incurable disease (at the current tech level) travelling to a
higher tech world for medical treatment, displaced workers needing to find a
new job market, low level mega-corp employees (and family) being relocated,
Military personnel going home on leave and so on...

> Also, isn't the set price of low berth travel a bit on the low side? At
>least in TNE a low berth takes up 1 d.ton of space and costs Cr 50000 to
>install. Doctors don't work free either, whether you contract one from the
>starport or hire your own. After these expenses you get Cr 1000 per low
>passenger, the same you get from a discplacement ton of freight.
>

There is nothing, AFAIK that speaks to that.  IMTU, however, I play it as a
sop thrown to the masses by the Nobility.  Basically, for a trade line to
get any kind of guarentees for a trade line (i.e. basing rights on the
starport, tax considerations, etc...), they have to provide low cost
transport to allow the disaffected portions of the populous the ability to
'escape' their situations (i.e. emigrate to other planets.)  In some cases,
the emigree may not be all that willing - ever seen a low berth passenger
escorted onto the ship by one or more officials of the planet? ;^)  (And
once he's in the berth, they toss in an extra 2 or 3 Kcr to the low berth
lottery with him as the 'winner'....)

For smaller traders (i.e. player characters) the low berths provide ways to
get critically wounded PCs from low-tech worlds to higher tech medical
facilities, without complication (other than the slight chance of dying on
the way...)

Finally, (again IMTU rules), I have created portable low berths that are
treated basically like cargo, they are even packed into cargo modules
(albeit, ones that require power connections....)  These are for long term
passengers - i.e. someone who wants to go subsector and even sector
distances.  These have the advantage of only requiring a single survival
roll, but may require 1d3 (the infamous half die!) weeks to travel a single
jump.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:23:16 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: Background Music

A few ideas:

Meeting the Archduke:
  Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, third movement.

Meeting the primitives:
  Johnny Clegg and Savuka, any of the songs sung in Zulu.

Chasing and fighting:
  Igor Stravinski, Rite of Spring, any of the violent parts.

Trapped on an empty frozen world:
  Vivaldi, Four Seasons, Winter movement.  (Vivaldi, not Vilani.)

High-speed chase on an empty frozen world:
  Sergei Prokofieff, Lieutenant Kije suite, Troika Song.

A visit to the Sword Worlds:
  John Philips Sousa marches!  Straus waltzes!  Theme from Hogan's Heroes!

  --S

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:29:18 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint

We like oxygen, but too high a concentration will kill you...when
they're not photosynthesizing, plants need O2 for respiration just like
we do.

Greg Smith wrote:
> 
> I thought plant life *liked* CO2....
> 
> Walter Smith wrote:
> >
> > The news report didn't list any fatalities (yet). They've got warnings
> > all around the region, and apparently the CO2 has caused quite a
> > bit of tree kill where it's worst.
> >
> 
> Greg Smith

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:40:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Deadline for Aslan & K'Kree

Hi all.  Does anyone know what the writing deadline is for the G:T book
"Aslan and K'Kree"?  

Thanks,
Charles.

- -----
"Can anything truly meaningful be said in just a single line? Maybe, maybe
not." 
Charles Collin \\ McGill Psychology \\ http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl
Ph: (514) 398-6151 \\ FAX: (514) 398-4896 \\  charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:42:51 EST
From: CPsyop@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

In a message dated 12/17/98 9:46:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
scharlto@ifsna.com writes:

> The current 'Desert Fox' news coverage has gottne me thinking a bit about
>  Imperial military doctrine (a subject I think has always been woefully
>  ignored in Traveller books).  Specifically, the concepts of artillery as
>  practiced by the Imperium.
>  
>  In Classic Traveller and in various articles in the Journal, mention was
>  made of MRL batteries being used by the Marines, and the availability of
>  Orbital Fire.  ISTR the Spinward Campaign book's writeup of the Duke of
>  Regina's Huscarles included dedicated Ortillery (orbital artillery)
>  starships.  Some later publications for TNE added some detail, but still
>  neglected support weaponry.  Some mention was made of cruise missiles, but
>  it was not clear if this was the standard MRL load or a special type of
>  weapon used in addition to MRLs.
>  
>  And of course, we have mention of battlefield Meson guns; the ultimate in
>  indirect fire weapon turns out to be the most direct fire weapon possible!
>  

There are TNE write-ups of Imperial artillery systems in the Regency Combat
Vehicle Guide (RCVG).  In the indirect fire role the Imperium has the
following:

- -Imperial Multiple "Rocket" Launcher Vehicle (MRLV):  12 dton chassis with a
20-shot box of 30cm "rockets".  These rockets have a 650km range and listed
warheads include HE, HEAP, submunition, and homing submunition.  The rockets
also have EMS guidance for terminal homing by a forward observer.  

- -Imperial Remote Drone Missile Artillery Vehicle (RDMAV): Built on the same
hull as the MRLV, this unit carries 34 grav drones.  Each drone has almost 5m
in length, equipped with a 3km PEMS, have a 2 hour endurance, an NOE cruise
mode of 200kph, and an attack range or 12.36 km (based on 5 seconds at
"sprint"-mode).  Warheads are of the type as the artillery rockets.

- -Imperial Meson Artillery Vehicle:  Built on a beefed up Astrin/Trepida II
chassis (20 dtons), the meson gun has a rate of fire of 1 shot every 20
seconds and an effective range of 3000 km (with link to other sensors it can
hit targets out to 30,600 km but beyond 6000 km there is no area of effect).

>  So - what do you think is being used?  I think that if the Marines are used
>  priarily against low-tech (TL 8 or less) forces, then dumb and semi-guided
>  MRL rockets, supported with active-homing cruise missiles, would be quite
>  sufficient.  But I would think higher-tech enemies would be able to deploy
>  countermeasures to take out most any cruise-type missile, and these same
>  countermeasures would probably be bale to defeat most 'mass-assault' dumb
>  MRL attacks.
>  
>  Dropping rocks from orbit is of course a much-loved TML subject, and would
>  perhaps be much more difficult to defend against, but to be useful in a
>  tactical support role it would require very solid control of the overhead
>  orbital space, and some DAMN GOOD targetting to avoid friendly fire
>  casualties.  I think the Marines on the ground would feel better if they
>  had supporting fire weapons under their direct control.
>  

An option for ortillery beyond beam weapons would be kinetic-kill "crowbars"
using a "cheap" high-boost grav drive (really a rather well designed drive,
cheap only in that the drive is only built for that single shot and will burn
itself out to achieve a high attack velocity) and terminal guidance sensors.
For area strikes, larger bus missiles to carry bundles of kinetic kill weapons
mixed with homing anti-personnel submunitions.

>  The battlefield Meson gun is a cool thing, but rather large and expensive.
>  Smaller Marine forces would need some sort of supporting fire too, and I
>  doubt the Imperium is issuing Meson gun carriers at the platoon or company
>  level.
> 

Material in Striker II and the RCVG place four-sled meson batteries at
regimental-level with no other artillery systems.  This seems a bit of a flaw
as the Marines are now without area attack weapons (with the MRLV) or
recon/attack assets (the RDMRV).  Imperial Army formations don't possess meson
sleds but the other systems appear at regimental-level (battery of two MRL
sections and one RDM section) and battalion-level (single MRL platoon for
infantry, Guard cavalry have a full battery).

<<Snippage for brevity's sake of interesting hierarchy of support and
ortillery gunship ideas>>

>  
>  If the Marines are facing a lower-tech force, the orbital support is
>  probably not needed (but might be used anyway juse to make a statement).
>  Those higher-tech enemies capable of defeating MRL rockets and TAC missiles
>  will tend to get pounded from orbit more more substantially before the
>  Marines attack.  This will of course signal that a ground attack is about
>  to commence, so sometimes the Marines will simply assault with minimal
>  preparation in hopes of surprising the enemy, relying on ECM to spoof the
>  enemy sensor nets.  In effect, IMTU ground battles between high-tech forces
>  sometimes resemble American Civil War/early World War I battles; the battle
>  is generally decided very quickly, or else it rapidly degenerates into a
>  meatgrinder that both sides have to keep feeding forces into to avoid a
>  breakthrough.  Except in this case the battle is going on over a 500 mile
>  area instead of a 10 mile battlefield, and the fighting extended into the
>  stratosphere and low orbit.  Not a pretty sight...
>  

Interesting and IYTU, but seems to run contrary to the tech.  No doubt the
actions are violent when forces commit to battle, but the appearance of grav
drive would seem to make wars ones of maneuver as opposed to attrition. The
mobility of Marine IFV's and panzers allow small units to cover large areas.
When contact does occur it is likely to be violent and short.  Drawn out
battles will only last until one side or the other can bring artillery
(ground, aerospace, and orbital) to bear and smash the other side's
concentration of forces.  While maneuver war has not been ignored above, the
chances of drawn out attrition fights like WWI or US Civil War seem very
unlikely.

Also, smaller Imperial Marine forces being relegated to foot runs contrary to
the trends and seems to draw more from the doctrine of contemporary Marine
units (most notably the USMC).  Given the amount of terrain one must cover and
the need to keep mobile to survive the Imperial Marines will look more like a
combination of air assault and mechanized infantry with Marine IFV's providing
fast mobility and high firepower (especially given the relative scarcity of
panzers in Marine formations, somewhat made up for by the use of a fire
support IFV as the platoon command vehicle).  The need for the Marine squad to
work in concert with the IFV's preclude their existing in a separate transport
platoon/company and instead they become part of the squad (it's good to
personally know the IFV gunners when said individuals have a thumb on the nuke
tac missiles and you're dismounted).  

>  Steve Charlton

Interesting ideas and a good post.  Again, IYTU and my own comments are skewed
by my own service time in Army.  There are a few things in canon I'd like to
tweak m'self on the Imperial military (lack of anything other then meson arty
in the Marines;  inability of VRF gauss and F-n-F missiles to do diddly to
troops at similar TL's; laundry list of others for a latter time), but that's
for another time.

Chris Ruhl
SGT USAR
301st PSYOP Company (Airborne)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1284
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Thursday, December 17 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1285



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: T2000
Re: ISARC-class Salvage Tender
Re: Low berth lethality
2500 Ton Boxer Class Armored Intruder
Re: GT: combat example, *long.*
Re: Missiles from long range & scanners *long*
re: Background Music
Re: Transporting fuel insystem
Striker - "Jeep" ACV (TL 9)
Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
HMG's in Striker
Re: Exhaustive Directory?
Re: Operation Plowshare (was re: transporting fuel in-system)
Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint
Re: Claymore or less
Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint
ACV Clarification
Re: Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables
Atmospheric taint (was Transporting fuel in-system)
Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint
Re: T2000

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:21:14 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: T2000

On Thursday, 17 December 1998 13:47, Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
[SMTP:Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com] wrote:
> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:59:30 -0500
> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> Subject: Re: T2000
> Hmm, wonder what made it so different for US?
> We were in Alaska.
> We were an Air Cav unit.
> You?
> ******************
> As we used to answer the phones on CQ: 'Charlie Airborne, Farthest north
> Airborne unit in the free world, Death from above at 40 below, may I
> help
> you Sir?'
> 
> C co 4/9th INF (ABN). either 172ed INF BDE (Ind) or 6th ID(L) depending
> on the year.

Neat!  My dad was motor sergeant in the 172nd, and then came back for
the conversion to 6th Light after working on the 7th at Ord.

> At the time the Soviets had an airborne division, three armor divisions and
> 4 mech inf divisions, stationed acroos the bering strait. wartime mission
> was to jump in front of them and 'Slow them down for an hour.' to buy a
> little more time.
> 
> our unit history in T2K actualy looks good compared to our real world
> mission :)

The T2K campaign I ran in California had the troops walk from Poland,
across the USSR, ski across the Strait, then hoof the Alcan back down to
the US.  Loads of fun.

> and yes we did play it during duty hours and call it 'traning in
> tactics',
> just like war movies were 'Training Films'

There is a file I have from years ago about someone jokingly complaining
about role-playing games.  They said that RPGs were taking away from war
games, and denying the opportunity for the kids to learn strategy,
tactics, and how to set up an L ambush.  He did take a moment to praise
T2K and the 'correct' type of RPG.

vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1.com
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:01:15 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: ISARC-class Salvage Tender

If you can scan and send me the original picture (as I don't have that
listed reference) I'd be more than happy to give a stab at it.  You can see
some of my current Traveller CGI & some sci-fi flat art at the following
pages of my site:

www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm
This is where my current work on a highly detailed Free Trader resides

www.vision-forge-graphics.com/computer.htm
Has a couple of pics of a Type S Scout and an un-named modular (sort-of)
cargo hauler

www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jdscifi.htm
Has some flat art pics of a sci-fi bent, one of which is sorta' Darrian
HEAVY Battledress with a gatling VRF gun

Cheers & Beers,
Jesse DeGraff
www.vision-forge-graphics.com





- -----Original Message-----
From: Smart, David J (David) <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:29 PM
Subject: ISARC-class Salvage Tender


>Has anyone had the chance (and inclination) to render/draw
>any external views of the ISARC-class Salvage Tender found
>in one of the High Passage fan mags by FASA? The only one
>I've seen is a picture of a reflection of the ship on a
>vacc suit's faceplate with all the appropriate distortion
>due to the faceplate's curvature.
>
>Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:11:40 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Low berth lethality

Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:43:53 +0200 (EET), Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
>  The rules in GT state, that if there's a medic present with the relevant
>skill at 10+, the reviwal is automatically successfull. (What the relevant
>skill is, I don't know. The entry mentions medical, but there's no such
>skill in GURPS. Could be eg. physician, diagnosis or el.op./medical.)

The skill is  Physician 10+ or Electronics Operation (Medical) 10+.
Its in the errata....

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:39:28 -0500
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: 2500 Ton Boxer Class Armored Intruder

I just completed the profiles for my newest CT ship, 
the 2500 ton Boxer Class Armored Intruder.

http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/downloads/BoxerP.gif

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

btw: Michel Vaillancourt is helping with stats.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:51:35 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: GT: combat example, *long.*

>[long example of missile attack deleted[

>> At the very least, the bonus for Point
>>defense missile fire should be +8 instead of +10.
>I am thinking allong the lines of +6

I disagree, strongly, for two reasons. 

The first is realism; in reality, decent laser tracking equipment is 
pretty much guaranteed a hit on a missile out to a thousand km or more.
Traveller-quality lasers will make impact missiles life very complicated.

The other is play balance. The missiles in G:T already are quite deadly,
doing crippling damage to PC spacecraft - and they're not particularly
optimized. Missiles could get substantially bigger (G:T missile magazines
hold 77 shots, which is way too many - 7 shots of a missile ten times
bigger would be perfectly practical.) Second, they could get much faster -
bigger missiles could have fusion power plants and essentially unlimited
endurance, which lets them strike at very high speeds when fired at long
ranges. Since energy goes as (speed^2), big fusion missiles will do ship-
crippling damage even to capital ships. If one doesn't leave impact missiles
as very easy to shoot down, they will come to *completely* dominate G:T
space combat (especially since G:T laser/energy weapon ranges are quite short.)
This would, in my opinion, be bad. 

The way to fix this is not to make point defence less effective but to 
introduce new types of missiles that are harder to shoot down but also do
less damage. The two obvious choices are fragmentation - missiles that
detonate a few hundred or thousand km out into a cloud of submunitions, 
only a few of which will hit a (presumably evading) target for moderate
damage - and det-laser for military applications.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:15:05 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Missiles from long range & scanners *long*

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> >A Tigress has *how many* twin fusion guns?  average damage on a fusion gun
> >is 6d6*600(IIRC, notes at home) or 12,200 damage, more than enough to kill
> >(melt to slag actualy) a fighter. Problem solved?
> 
> Well no, because now you have a fighter-sized cloud of rapidly-cooling slag
> coming at you with the same mass * velocity. ;-)
> 
> Of course, if you hit them out far enough, this isn't a problem. But if you
> don't hit them until it is too late to get out of the way...
> 
I would think that the slagged fighter would expand somewhat, due to the
impact of a fusion-reacting plasma, plus the decompression of the
atmosphere inside the fighter (even if its only the atmosphere inside
the pilot's vac suit), plus the release of whatever power plant the
fighter has.  If that's the case, then the impact would be spread over a
larger area, and thus would be less lethal (picture the difference
between the damage from a punch, and the damage from a punch with a
knife blade).

Not to mention the fact that at least some of the fighter's mass would
vaporize, thus reducing the mass that could impact on the target ship.

> Ciao,
> 
> Joseph R. Dietrich
> yikes@evansville.net

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:07:14 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Background Music

 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>What are YOUR Soundtrack Music ideas and favorites to...

*Dune

*Interview with the Vampire

*Alien 3

*Babylon 5

*Bladerunner (Vangelis original version)


Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:52:58 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Transporting fuel insystem

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>Frankly, vacuum is easier to deal with than bad weather.

When I was involved in high energy flywheel development a few years back,
we found maintenance of a vacuum was more difficult than weatherproofing.
There again, we were sealing a vacuum chamber in an atmosphere, and some
storms can be very nasty.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:13:57 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Striker - "Jeep" ACV (TL 9)

Light Utility ACV  (Tech Level 9)

   The vehicle has a crew of 1 (driver) and carries 3 passengers. It mounts a
HMG on a pintle at the forward passenger position. No fire control installed.
Height: 1.0 m. Width: 1.8 m. Length: 3.5 m. Total Volume: 4.4 m^3. Weight: 3.4
tons. Price: Cr 19,195.

   Movement: 181 kph/151 cm.
   Movement Effects on Fire: Move half or less, -4 FFP, no fire EFP; Move more
than half, no fire.
   Armour: Front/sides/ 9; back, 6; deck, nil; belly, 2.
   Target Size DM's: +1 low.
   Equipment: Half a ton (0.50 m^3) of cargo.
   Power: 0.45 megawatt fuel cell consumes 16 liters of fuel(includes oxygen)
per hour; fuel capacity is 30 liters, enough for 1.8 hours. P/W ratio is 131.
   Weapons: see HMG on table, page 36. Basic load is 750 rounds.


  Design notes: As a further variation, the vehicle is designed with "advanced"
composite laminates; weight is normal, cost is KCr 9.0/m^3, and Toughness is
2.5 rather than 2.0 for the generic TL 7-9 material at KCr 7.0/m^3 (if desired
reduce cost by Cr 130 and change all vertical armour faces to AV 5). Removing
the HMG and ammo reduces price by Cr 4875.

  The driver can adjust their seat to raise them above the hull level (full
volume
for the position is allocated within the hull); the passengers are exposed above
the waist if sitting, or almost fully if operating the HMG.

  FWIW, the vehicle could float. Ground pressure for the entire vehicle
foot-print
would be 0.54, which might prove handy if you park it in wet concrete or
such. The vehicle is a bit bulky to transport - the moderate sloping front
and sides bulks it
up to about half a displacement ton for shipping purposes.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:14:22 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

At 09:41 PM 16/12/98 +1300, you wrote:
>
>>  MTU is a TL 11 maximum game, with TL 9 being Terran Sphere
>>average, so the IMG APC is *very* not an option.  Hence the
>>requirement to haul the G-Carriers down by assault shuttle.
>
>You may not be able to get into orbit  using a G-Carrier, but
>you should be able to drop them OK, they just fall until they
>tun on their  agrav and stop. Can't get down much faster
>than terminal velocity in a shuttle.

        Ummmm...  What about re-entry friction?  I don't recall any
indication about heat-shields on G-Carriers...

>Of course, you wouldn't wat to be in the first wave of an
>aborted drop.
>
        Well, given that the troops are going in by Jump Capsule, there is
no such thing as an "aborted drop"...  Just un-planned "hot" extractions....
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:52:59 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: HMG's in Striker

  As the standard Striker HMG (B:3, p.36) doesn't include any stats for
higher-TL versions then the following could serve that purpose:
 instead of     500 m (6)       1000 m (5)      1500 m (3)

  try using an Effective range Penetration of (TL), Long of (0.75*TL), and
Extreme of (TL/2). Thus, a TL-9 HMG would have penetration values of 9/7/5.

  In all cases, the damage conversion to CT should be a wound of 5D (?).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:17:24 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Exhaustive Directory?

At 11:57 AM 17/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Does anyone know of a good exhaustive directory of links to good Traveller
>sites?
>
>--Clif

        "Hyphen" has an wonderful index of sites at
"http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:42:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Operation Plowshare (was re: transporting fuel in-system)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>   Could you at least give me some rough idea of where to start digging.
>> (Magazine, book, scientific/technical report?)
>
> Project or Operation "Plowshare" was the program for developing
> civilian uses of nukes. That'd be a good starting point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> IIRC, Operation Plowshare had one big project in mind, a project that
> indicates where the operation's name came from: they wanted to
> use nukes to "plow" a ditch from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico.

"Plowshare" came from the Bible verse about beating swords into
plowshares. Seems appropriate for a program devoted to finding civilian
uses for weapons technology. :-)

> A sea-level canal across Central America - dug with overlapping nuclear
> explosions. The damage and disruption would have been similar to
> that caused by a conventional construction project of that scale,
> but the project would have been completed in a miniscule fraction of the
> time. The Operation Plowshare people may have been overly optimistic
> when calculating the effects of mass evacuations and radioactive
> contaminiation cleanup efforts.

The preffered version was to use underground blasts, placed shallow
enough that you'd get the maximum sized subsidence crater. This means
that you don't really *have* cleanup, as the contaminated materials are
under a 100 or more meters of rock. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:53:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint

In mail you write:

> I thought plant life *liked* CO2....
>
> Walter Smith wrote:
>>
>> The news report didn't list any fatalities (yet). They've got warnings
>> all around the region, and apparently the CO2 has caused quite a
>> bit of tree kill where it's worst.

Plants use CO2 to make sugars. But at night, they use O2 to "burn" the
sugars for energy. Pure CO2 will kill plants.

Also, it acidifies the water and moist soil. This can change the pH
enough to cause trouble.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:39:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 12/17/98 8:47:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, samir@chisp.net
> writes:
>
> <<Large amount of snippage>>
>
>> A claymore on the outside of an armored starship.... really cool
>>  idea. But as a GM I would rule eventually a weakening of the armor at that
>>  point. More then likely I would not make such a ruling until around 10 or
>>  more such firings at that point.  
>
> ::LURKER MODE OFF::
>
> A directional fragmentation mine is not going to cause much more stress then
> reactive armor used on many modern AFV's today.  I can see this being 
> standard
> on military ships (great for clearing you LZ) and an option for those craft
> involved in less-than-legal endeavors.  Engineering for such a system would
> most likely consist of the fragmentation charges sitting in reinforced
> recesses in the hull with retractable panels (protection during 
> flight/reentry
> as well as making them less obvious to starport inspectors who'd be less then
> wild about having a ship-sized directional mine on the tarmac).  There could
> also be an option to link them to the ship's sensor grid so your frag charges
> can act as active armor, detecting incoming projectiles like rockets and
> missiles and detonating preemptively to claw them out of the air with
> fragments.
>
> ::LURKER MODE REENGAGED::

Yet another reason why I favor having  vertical landing or takeoff
ships berth inside "blast berms". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:46:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint

In mail you write:

> An odd environmental hazard. Seems a dormant volcano in California is 
> causing carbon dioxide to seep into the soil in the surrounding area. During 
> wintertime the snow pack concentrates the CO2 seeping out, and under 
> some conditions the concentrations can reach fatal levels. 
>
> http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9812/16/mammoth.enn/ is the
> web page.
>
> Obtrav: An example of a possible "taint" for tainted atmosphere worlds
> in action.

From a nature show, there are places in Africa where CO2 seeps from
underground sources. It accumulates in depressions, and animals that
wander in die. This is not due to CO2 toxicity (see below), but because
the CO2 has *replaced* the air. 

An atmosphere with high CO2 can cause panting and shortness of breath
(even if there *is* sufficient oxygen). At higher levels it causes
acidosis, and eventually, death. 

You can sometimes detect high CO2 levels (far higher than the danger
level) by the "sharp" taste/smell. This is due to the formation of
carbonic acid on the mucuos membranes of the mouth and nose. It's not
really a taste or smell.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:34:21 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: ACV Clarification

Re: Light Utility ACV  (Tech Level 9)

  I require ACV's to install a transmission in step I; add ACV to
the Transmission table: TL 7+, 0.25 m^3/ton per MW input, Cr 2000
per m^3 of transmission installed.

  This avoids the silliness of battery-powered ACV's with variable
/semi-unlimited top speeds.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:39:00 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables

Eric Holmes wrote:

Fellow TMLers:

>I wonder if I can jump into the discussion concerning Logistics,
>Housekeeping and Maintenance.  I've noticed that no one seems to
>have come up with a definitive level as to consumables for human
>life support.  So I went to my local survivalist friend who is
>getting ready for the Y2K bug. (lets not go there)  Any ways, I
>asked him what he based his needs on, and he said that a certain
>religious group publishes annual recommendations to its
>congregation.  The list of approximately twenty to thirty items
>weighs out at approximately 0.25 metric tonnes per person. 
>Volume occupied is approximately the equivalent of  3.5 cubic
>meters.  I rounded up for ease of calculations.  This would be
>enough basic food, water and staples for a year.

I'm willing to bet that most of that 3.5 m3 is water. Extended
Life support on a starship assuredly recycles that, so you can
refigure just solid food.

>Annual breathable air requirements need a bit of calculation. 
>Assume standard temperature, pressure  at 1 Atmosphere (atm) and
>20% oxygen atmosphere mix.  A person respires approximately 1.5
>liters of air per breath.  Average rate of respiration is 20
>breaths per minute.  (This is lower while sleeping and higher 
>while exercising.)  Now the stubby pencil work begins......

<Calculations Snipped>

>7.86E6 l per annum  or  7.86E3 cu meters per annum
>To give you an idea of what kind of real world working
>situations are around, a thirty foot (9 meters for argument
>sake) tube trailer has approximately 16.52cu m of breathing air
>pressurized at 32,330 atm. Converting this to 1 atm would bring
> the volume to 5.34E5cu m.  I used the perfect gas law.

  Likewise, extended life support on a starship recycles the
atmosphere (and recovers quite a bit of water doing it...)
Your only problem is what to do with the abundant CO2 and smaller
amounts of smelly organic volatiles humans give off. My guess is
that lower TL systems simply filter and store it: Higher TL
systems have more sophisticated equipment for reprocessing.
    Your mass and maintenance requirements involve replacement of
leakage and servicing of filtration and recycling requirements,
which should be much cheaper than carrying and venting all your
consumables.

 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:42:11 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Atmospheric taint (was Transporting fuel in-system)

Eppu Tuominen wrote:

>  TNE world generation IIRC just flat out stated you need a
>tainted atmosphere to qualify as an industrial world.
>Considering the usual amount of environmental awareness
>possessed by the megacorps, most In worlds probably would have
>tainted atmospheres, but I still think the rule is just a bit
>too stict.

>  Could some low pop garden worlds with tainted Atm:s then be
>former In worlds abandoned ceturies ago, after their
>environments became just too spoiled to live in. (An image of
>vast deserted TL 9-10 skyscrapers/arcos with their slowly
>decaying tops lost in a yellowish toxic haze. I sense a major
>story hook here.)

   I can't quite swallow industrialization as a major cause of
atmospheric taint. In my book, Industrial worlds with tainted
atmospheres had tainted atmospheres to begin with.
    In a oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere, the common industrial
pollutants don't last very long. Ozone breaks back down into
oxygen.  Nitrogen oxides break back down into nitrogen and
oxygen.  Sulfur oxides are soluble in water (as in acid rain,
which may be bad for the local ecology, but it does get them out
of the air). Hydrocarbons are oxidized into carbon dioxide and
water.  These pollutants are only a problem in local areas where
industry or vehicles continually regenerate them faster than they can be
broken down.
   They are also characteristic of a world which relies heavily
on hydrocarbon fuels. An industry that spews these pollutants out
on a scale to taint the whole atmosphere is more likely to
exhaust its fuels first.
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:16:02 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint

Wait!  Don't plants thrive on CO2?

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 2:12 PM
Subject: re: Carbon Dioxide Taint


>Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Why fatal?  Do Californians breathe dirt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The snow pack would cause a buildup, which would be released all at
>once during snow melts (I believe). A camper wouldn't know the sunny
>meadow uphill of him was dumping fatal CO2 concentrations on his
>campsite until he woke up dead in the middle of the night.
>
>The news report didn't list any fatalities (yet). They've got warnings
>all around the region, and apparently the CO2 has caused quite a
>bit of tree kill where it's worst.
>
>Walt Smith
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:21:26 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: T2000

Well, waddya know!  I think I might have seen you guys in the OLD PX on Ft.
Wainwright?  I was there from Feb. 87 to Sep 89.  The new PX was finished
not long before I left.

Was that you, then?

Man, "training in tactics".  Unreal!

Remember that hobby shop in downtown Fairbanks?

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com <Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: T2000


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:59:30 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: T2000
>Hmm, wonder what made it so different for US?
>We were in Alaska.
>We were an Air Cav unit.
>You?
>******************
>As we used to answer the phones on CQ: 'Charlie Airborne, Farthest north
>Airborne unit in the free world, Death from above at 40 below, may I help
>you Sir?'
>
>C co 4/9th INF (ABN). either 172ed INF BDE (Ind) or 6th ID(L) depending on
>the year.
>
>At the time the Soviets had an airborne division, three armor divisions and
>4 mech inf divisions, stationed acroos the bering strait. wartime mission
>was to jump in front of them and 'Slow them down for an hour.' to buy a
>little more time.
>
>our unit history in T2K actualy looks good compared to our real world
>mission :)
>
>and yes we did play it during duty hours and call it 'traning in tactics',
>just like war movies were 'Training Films'
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1285
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, December 18 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1286



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: T2000
Jump Capsules?
Re: Fire Support for Marines
Re: Background Music
Trepida tank
Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
re: Fire Support for Marines
re: Operation Plowshare
Romeo Void ?
re: Jump Capsules?
Links page
Re: Background Music
Missiles in G:T
re : Striker HMGs
Re: Missiles from long range & scanners *long*
Re: Missiles from long range & scanners *long*
Re: Happy Y2k (OT)
Re: Fire support for Marines
Re: Fire Support for Marines

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:32:54 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: T2000

Yeah, that's right.  I was 4/9th Reconaissance Squadron then 4-9th Cavalry
Squadron.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com <Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: T2000


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:59:30 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: T2000
>Hmm, wonder what made it so different for US?
>We were in Alaska.
>We were an Air Cav unit.
>You?
>******************
>As we used to answer the phones on CQ: 'Charlie Airborne, Farthest north
>Airborne unit in the free world, Death from above at 40 below, may I help
>you Sir?'
>
>C co 4/9th INF (ABN). either 172ed INF BDE (Ind) or 6th ID(L) depending on
>the year.
>
>At the time the Soviets had an airborne division, three armor divisions and
>4 mech inf divisions, stationed acroos the bering strait. wartime mission
>was to jump in front of them and 'Slow them down for an hour.' to buy a
>little more time.
>
>our unit history in T2K actualy looks good compared to our real world
>mission :)
>
>and yes we did play it during duty hours and call it 'traning in tactics',
>just like war movies were 'Training Films'
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:52:06 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Jump Capsules?

Jump Capsule?  I thought that was MY idea!  I used it back in '88 and a
failed coolant system could result in a burn up during reentry, yes.

I thought of it as the ultimate HALO jump (High Altitude Low Open).

- --Clif

>        Well, given that the troops are going in by Jump Capsule, there is
>no such thing as an "aborted drop"...  Just un-planned "hot"
extractions....
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:51:01
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

At 10:42 AM 12/17/98 -0700, you wrote:

>So - what do you think is being used?

IMTU the Marines operate from Company-sized assault ships for the most
part.  These ships are equipped to drop 150 capsules at a time, and since a
Marine Company is about 100 sophonts (three platoons of 30 plus
leadership), they can include a great amount of deadfall ordinance along
with the initial strike.

During the battle, support is usally orbital laser fire or the ever-popular
superdense crowbar.  The laser has the advantage of faster responce time,
the crowbar the advantage of being guided.

Marines on the ground can carry fairly lethal support missiles themselves.
Given a TL15 technology, I can easily see a two-man team carrying a
babynuke missile launcher.

>The battlefield Meson gun is a cool thing, but rather large and expensive.
>Smaller Marine forces would need some sort of supporting fire too, and I
>doubt the Imperium is issuing Meson gun carriers at the platoon or company
>level.

Once again, IMTU.  Meson sleds are a Regimental asset, and consist of one
platoon of vehicles (two complete weapons systems.)  The feeling is that
the systems are too delicate an expensive, and that orbital fire is
avalible from support fleet resources if needed.

- --

+------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
+------------------------------------------+
| "or it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' | 
| "Chuck him out, the brute!"              |
| But it's "Saviour of 'is country"        |
| when the guns begin to shoot;"           |
+------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:33:48
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Background Music

At 01:11 PM 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote:

>What are YOUR Soundtrack Music ideas and favorites to...

Walter/Wendy Carlos' "Well-tempered synthesiser"

Techno/Industrial tracks for large urban scenes.

When we get the Great New Computer, one thing we are going to make sure of
is a reciordable CD drive so we can make home mix custom CDs.  One of the
firsts is going to be "From Surface to Jump-point"  The early canidates are:

"Space Oddity" -David Bowie
"Standing on the Moon" -The Grateful Dead
"Arriving UFO" -Yes

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:26:04 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Trepida tank

Dear Folks -

Joseph R. Dietrich said:
>This brings to mind an old gripe: the Trepida, a grav *tank,* had an AV of
>40 in MegaTraveller -- the same as the Astrin. What's up with that?

Answer: poor design. The grav tanks Andrew Madden ("Count Leto of Tavonni")
developed mounted a ship's fusion gun (Striker/MT penetration 103), a Z-gun
as a secondary weapon and a RF-Y as a tertiary weapon/defence. The frontal
armor was (from memory) AF 96, so I think it could almost withstand a
direct hit from its own weapon. It could survive being in the outer half of
the primary blast radius of a nuke (although I can't remember what Striker
would have ruled about its occupants!!). A computer-linked platoon could
fire as if they were a factor-9 ship's battery.

I admit I always thought they were just high-value targets, but they were a
fearsome weapon (as long as you didn't have to equip an entire army, just a
few platoons).

The MT Trepida is junk. Mostly because of the uniform armor rating that MT
used - simple and good for starships, too simple for combat vehicles. It
can't withstand its own weapon! I created a spreadsheet to re-distribute
armor on MT vehicles, and even then the Trepida was junk. Short of
re-designing the whole thing, I decided to double the armor thickness and
_then_ re-rate it, and it came out a bit better. If I can find the
spreadsheet, I'll post the re-rated stats.

BTW, the TNE version of the Trepida/Intrepid/Norris tanks is *much* better,
assuming you like TNE. TNE is not my favourite system, but *at least* the
Trepida was built as a really nasty weapon system that you would NOT want
to have to face.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:15:53 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

>At 09:41 PM 16/12/98 +1300, you wrote:
>>
>>>  MTU is a TL 11 maximum game, with TL 9 being Terran Sphere
>>>average, so the IMG APC is *very* not an option.  Hence the
>>>requirement to haul the G-Carriers down by assault shuttle.
>>
>>You may not be able to get into orbit  using a G-Carrier, but
>>you should be able to drop them OK, they just fall until they
>>tun on their  agrav and stop. Can't get down much faster
>>than terminal velocity in a shuttle.
>
>        Ummmm...  What about re-entry friction?  I don't recall any
>indication about heat-shields on G-Carriers...


Several possibilities, choose a vector that minimizes heating, it is
possible to re-enter the atmosphere without heat sheilding if you do
it correctly. However, from memory that would not be a good military
option, too much time in one flat trajectory, no chance to dodge enemy
fire.

Or use your agrav to slow your descent enough to avoid the heating, or
just fit an ablative shield specially for such drops. (Sort of like
the Sherman DD kit could be fitted for the landing and then removed )

Obvioulsy this is not limited to G-Carriers, you could drop anything
with good enough  agrav.

The major reason I would suggest this as an assult option is that if
you have ten G-Carriers in a large shuttle and it gets shot down,
you've lost ten G-Carriers and a shuttle. Also, if you haven't got
many shuttles it will limit
the speed at which you deploy your armour.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:22:37 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fire Support for Marines

CPSysop wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
An option for ortillery beyond beam weapons would be kinetic-kill "crowbars"
using a "cheap" high-boost grav drive (really a rather well designed drive,
cheap only in that the drive is only built for that single shot and will burn
itself out to achieve a high attack velocity) and terminal guidance sensors.
For area strikes, larger bus missiles to carry bundles of kinetic kill weapons
mixed with homing anti-personnel submunitions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It must be very depressing for the grunt to have the enemy not only
zapping him from orbit, but also caring enough to make the anti
**personnel** stuff _homing_!!

Anti-air, anti-tank, anti-radar, that he's come to expect...but homing
anti-personnel _from orbit_ would really be bad for one's morale.

<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:34:20 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Operation Plowshare

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The preffered version was to use underground blasts, placed shallow
enough that you'd get the maximum sized subsidence crater. This means
that you don't really *have* cleanup, as the contaminated materials are
under a 100 or more meters of rock. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Possibly the worst environmental effect such a canal would have had:

The current Panama Canal goes up and down quite a bit, even crosses
some fresh water rivers. Environments from salt to brackish to fresh,
with locks in between - an effective barrier.

A sea-level canal would have been salt (or at least brackish) all the
way through, and would have effectively made the Eastern Pacific
and Gulf of Mexico/Carribean one ocean. The ecological "adjustments"
might have proven very uncomfortable for all concerned.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:34:06 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Romeo Void ?

Does anyone remember that ONE song that became a video by Romeo Void where
the astronaut was in space and then in his wife/girlfriend's car, like a
ghost?

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: dberry@hooked.net <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: Background Music


>At 01:11 PM 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>What are YOUR Soundtrack Music ideas and favorites to...
>
>Walter/Wendy Carlos' "Well-tempered synthesiser"
>
>Techno/Industrial tracks for large urban scenes.
>
>When we get the Great New Computer, one thing we are going to make sure of
>is a reciordable CD drive so we can make home mix custom CDs.  One of the
>firsts is going to be "From Surface to Jump-point"  The early canidates
are:
>
>"Space Oddity" -David Bowie
>"Standing on the Moon" -The Grateful Dead
>"Arriving UFO" -Yes
>
>--
>
>+-------------------------------------+
>| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
>|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    |
>+-------------------------------------+
>| "I created the universe; give ME    |
>|  the gift certificate!!"            |
>|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
>+-------------------------------------+
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:50:38 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Jump Capsules?

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jump Capsule?  I thought that was MY idea!  I used it back in '88 and a
failed coolant system could result in a burn up during reentry, yes.

I thought of it as the ultimate HALO jump (High Altitude Low Open).

- --Clif
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
They're in the original CT Striker rules - come in basic, armored and
high-survivable models IIRC. CT Adventure 4, Leviathan, had them as
well. If you launched it right, a drop capsule launched from a Leviathan
couldn't even be tracked by it's own ship (according to the write-up).

Of course, the first place I ever saw them was in Robert A. Heinlein's
_Starship Troopers_ - he wrote it in 1959, I read it a good bit later
than that.  <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:36:01 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Links page

Dear Folks -

Dave's question:
>Would you mind terribly if I deleted my links page entirely and just
pointed to yours?

My answer: no problem. It's there for anyone to use. My recommendation:
don't link directly to the page. I'm trying to come up with a better way of
display 80k+ of data, and the page will *eventually* split into multiple
pages, with multiple views, etc.

Now, if anyone knows how to create web pages dynamically in response to
user queries on a database, let me know the fundamentals. Let's see,
display sites by rating, title, milieu, contents, webmaster...
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:31:13 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Background Music

dberry said :

>When we get the Great New Computer, one thing we are going to make sure of
>is a reciordable CD drive so we can make home mix custom CDs.  One of the
>firsts is going to be "From Surface to Jump-point"  The early canidates
are:
>
>"Space Oddity" -David Bowie
>"Standing on the Moon" -The Grateful Dead
>"Arriving UFO" -Yes


Actually, there's an album with a similar concept by the Orb called "the
orb's adventures beyond the ultraworld". The British version is longer, but
the American version goes sort of from the sky, to a view of the earth, to
the end of the universe, into the fourth dimension, and so on. They do it in
a much wittier fashion, but still. It's a good album, really worth a listen,
especially if you like mellow, ambient techno. Would probably work extremely
well as Traveller background music as well.

I'll still have to think of my own Traveller soundtrack though.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:44:53
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Missiles in G:T

The other issue that makes massed missile use difficult in G:T is use of
nuclear missiles in a point defense role.

I believe that a single large nuke will force low-armour missiles to
disperse, which means fewer missiles for the point-defense missiles to deal
with at one time.

The other issue is that G:T standard lasers are not optimised for use
against lasers. Could someone with the appropriate Gurps supplement please
design a Gurps equivalent to the Famile Spofulam 'Signature' class point
defense laser ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:49:44
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: re : Striker HMGs

Steve,

Dont use HMGs in Striker. Use 20mm autocannon, especially with tailored
burst sizes. Makes a nice mess of battledress, too.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:40:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Missiles from long range & scanners *long*

In mail you write:

>>A Tigress has *how many* twin fusion guns?  average damage on a fusion gun
>>is 6d6*600(IIRC, notes at home) or 12,200 damage, more than enough to kill
>>(melt to slag actualy) a fighter. Problem solved?
>
>
> Well no, because now you have a fighter-sized cloud of rapidly-cooling slag
> coming at you with the same mass * velocity. ;-)

Actually, it's mass * velocity^2 that you have to worry about. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:29:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Missiles from long range & scanners *long*

In mail you write:

>   By the way - I have a few "problems" with the collision rules as they
> stand now.  Do you realize that for fighter pilots willing to Kamakazi into
> a fast moving ship, that they can easily destroy it as per the collision
> rules?

Well, consider the way things work in reality. A fighter impacting at a
*relative* velocity of 100 km/sec will release enery equivalent to a
1.1 kiloton nuke for every ton of mass it has. 

If the closing velocity is 200 km/sec, then the enery release is 4.4
kilotons per ton. 

The rule of thumb is that at *three* km/sec, an impacting body has
energy equal to its mass in TNT. The energy goes up as the *square* of
the velocity (ie twice as fast = four times the energy, three times as
fast = nine times the energy).

And closing velocities in Traveller can get into the *thousands* of
km/sec. At that velocity, each ton of mass is equivalent to 111
kilotons.  *Ouch*.

The only reason most missiles aren't kinetic kill is because hitting a
ship is *hard*. And avoiding any sort of decent point defense once you
get within, say, 50,000 km is next to impossible.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:41:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Happy Y2k (OT)

In mail you write:

> Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> As if you would be able to do anything about the problem, should it present
> itself, RIGHT THEN and within the day.
>
> --Clif
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> For some systems, setting the system clock back a year will keep
> things running (somewhat) until you figure out what's wrong. Minor
> glitches may actually be fixable "RIGHT THEN"- things you thought got 
> caught in your Y2K prep process, but slipped. 

Heck, one of the possible problems is that the CMOS clock or the BIOS
doesn't handle the "rollover" correctly. That is, it rolls over to 1900
instead of 2000. If you are there, you can catch this, down the system
"gracefully", reset the clock (even the ones that don't roll over
correctly will work if the year is set manually) and then bring the
system up again. 

If you aren't watching, all sorts of messy things happen as programs
start using that wrong date.

> Say you find out that a computer you communicate with wasn't made
> Y2K compliant in time - you can temporarily sever communications
> with it.

> Regardless, if the system you are responsible for glitches up on January
> 1st year 2000, not being there working on it is the worst move you
> can make - unless you're spending that day mailing out resumes for
> your next job...

Only if your resumes get there *before* the rumors about you on the
grapevine! 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:01:15
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fire support for Marines

>From: CPsyop@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

<lots of good stuff snipped at various points>

>
>- -Imperial Multiple "Rocket" Launcher Vehicle (MRLV):  12 dton chassis
with a
>20-shot box of 30cm "rockets".  These rockets have a 650km range and listed
>warheads include HE, HEAP, submunition, and homing submunition.  The rockets
>also have EMS guidance for terminal homing by a forward observer.  
>
>- -Imperial Remote Drone Missile Artillery Vehicle (RDMAV): Built on the same
>hull as the MRLV, this unit carries 34 grav drones.  Each drone has almost 5m
>in length, equipped with a 3km PEMS, have a 2 hour endurance, an NOE cruise
>mode of 200kph, and an attack range or 12.36 km (based on 5 seconds at
>"sprint"-mode).  Warheads are of the type as the artillery rockets.

The other warhead to consider is a combustion laser. Built via FFS2, you
can put a reasonably mean laser that will fire at horizon ranges on a missile.

This is important, becuase point defense is pretty standard once you get
beyond TL9, which means missiles tend not to get to contact range.

>
>- -Imperial Meson Artillery Vehicle:  Built on a beefed up Astrin/Trepida II
>chassis (20 dtons), the meson gun has a rate of fire of 1 shot every 20
>seconds and an effective range of 3000 km (with link to other sensors it can
>hit targets out to 30,600 km but beyond 6000 km there is no area of effect).

Once you have these babies, you have instant reaction fire out to
communicator range.

The key would thus be minimising your signature, and calling in the
artillery fire via meson communicators.

>Interesting and IYTU, but seems to run contrary to the tech.  No doubt the
>actions are violent when forces commit to battle, but the appearance of grav
>drive would seem to make wars ones of maneuver as opposed to attrition. 

Unless you assume battlefield size gravitic sensors, in which case grav
technology becomes very dangerous to use on a battlefield.

>Interesting ideas and a good post.  Again, IYTU and my own comments are
skewed
>by my own service time in Army.  There are a few things in canon I'd like to
>tweak m'self on the Imperial military (lack of anything other then meson arty
>in the Marines;  inability of VRF gauss and F-n-F missiles to do diddly to
>troops at similar TL's; laundry list of others for a latter time), but that's
>for another time.

Try building some autocannon with your favorite design sequence. A 20mm
round easily punches battledress in FFS2 and Striker.

IMO the age of the missile ends at TL9, with vehicle-portable point defense
fire control.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:04:22
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

At 01:25 PM 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 10:42 17-12-98 -0700, Steve Charlton wrote:
>>IMTU, the Imperial Navy fields assault transports for company-sized units
>>(Marine Raider Transports), so the company might be getting orbital fire
>>support from 

>Sample ship design(s), please?

Your wish is my excuse:

Ken Stabler, Raider class Marine Assault  (FF&S v2)
Designed by Douglas Berry

Statistics
Tons: 2000std (SL Long Box Hypersonic)
Crew: 54/177
Cargo: 150std (2 small hatches)
Volume: 28000m3
Cost: 870.61 MCr
Mass (L/C): 19815t/16897t
Maintenance Points: 524
Dimensions: 60.6m x 30.5m x 15.1m
Marines: 100
Tech Level: 15
Size: 9

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 3xFibComp (CM:0.3 CP:3.33).
Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). Bridge.
Communications: 1xRadio (500,000km, 0.17MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (13 [5mkm], 0MW). 1xAEMS (9, 0.03MW). 2xLIDAR (14 [200kkm],
0.1MW).
ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (5,000km, 0MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (11, 0.13MW). 1xPas.
Jammer (13, 0.01MW).
Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 2208MW, -0.5 at 496MW), Act:0, Neu:1, Grav:1

Performance
4         Jump (200std/pc fuel)
3.1/3.6   Maneuver (Thruster:1540MW)
1.4/1.7   Contra-grav (476MW)
4086kph/4397kph  Atmosphere Max
3065kph/3298kph  Atmosphere Cruise
5         Power (Fusion:4959MW,1yr fuel)
835.4     Fuel (/Scoop:2 /Purif:36,10MW)
25 sm strooms/38 lrg strooms  Accomodations
708       Life Support (Type:Standard, Good Food (Storage)
3         G-Comp
4         Sandcasters (/AV:79 /Cans:50)
6         Damper Turrets (1MW /Rng:10000km)
120       Damper Screen (2MW)
120       Meson Screen (4.5MW)
40 [190]  Armor, 23 Structure

Weapons
4xTurret (+6) 1/4-2-2-2 [2,800/31-31-31-29] (LR)

Features
18xAirlock                  2xDecontamination Airlock
1xDocking Umbilical         1xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)
1xMachine Shop (10std ea.)  1xSickbay (8std ea.)
1xShip's locker (1std ea.)  3xArmory (1.07std ea.)
1xGym (2.5std ea.)          2xFull Galley (Cap:90)
3xCap Lnchr (50 rdy cap ea.)

Small Craft
2xMinHgr (40std, 2 hatches)

Backups
Communications: 2xRadio (50,000km). 2xLaser (500,000km). 
Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm]). 1xAEMS (8). 2xLIDAR (13.5 [50kkm]). 

Crew Details
4xMnvr. 26xEngr. 4xGunn. 7xScrn. 6xFlgt. 100xTrps. 24xCmnd. 5xStew. 1xMed.



The INV Kenneth Stabler (AB-17331) is a typical example of the Raider-class
Marine Company Transport.  Built around a 2000dt hull, the Stabler (known
as the "Snake" to her crew), is designed to carry a Marine Company into
battle and provide support for that company.

In terms of performance, the Stabler easily meets Fleet standards.  Capable
of 3.1 G's of acceleration when fully loaded and carrying Jump-4 drives,
INV Stabler can be matched with any standard Naval formation.  She is
capable of self refueling, with full fuel processing taking 38 hours from
initiation of the skimming maneuver.

Since the vessel is intended as a transport, and not as a warship, weaponry
in minimal.  Four batteries of dual-mount 145-Mj rapid fire lasers make up
the entirety of the ship's firepower.  Defenses, on the other hand, are
extensive.  Stabler mounts several sand casters, damper turrets, a damper
screen, meson screen, as well as several ECM arrays.

At the heart of the Stabler's mission is it's Marine compliment.  As of
this writing (112-1105) The Stabler carries N Company of the 1183rd Marine
Regiment ("Hell on the Half-Shell"), currently assigned to the 43rd Fleet
in Lunion/Spinward Marches.  The 100 Marines live in fairly spacious
quarters, and have several training rooms for maintaining equipment and
their skills.  This includes a BattleDress trainer that provides a VR
training environment.

Marines make most assaults by means of rapid interface capsules.. the
famous "drop trooper" attack.  These capsules a 1/2dt, and the Stabler
carries facilities to drop 150 capsules at a time.  When making a drop,
fifty of the capsules will be loaded with spare equipment,
deadfall/anti-radar ordinance, or EW/ECM decoys.  The Stabler usually
carries enough reloads for two full drops.  Reloading the drop tubes is a
time-consuming task, taking several hours.

With the Marines on the ground, the Stabler can either loiter over head to
provide supporting fire, or withdraw to a safer position to await further
orders.  As always, the current situation will decide the tactics.  Most
Raider skippers prefer to stay close to their charges.

For pick-up, and situations where a full assault is not needed, the Stabler
carries two 40dt pinnaces in small hangers.  These can be modified for
normal passenger/cargo duty, or outfitted as recovery/fire support boats.

During peacetime, the fifteen line companies of a Marine regiment operate
out of ships much like the Stabler.  Some vessels wander their assigned
subsector on independent patrol, others form up into battalion sized units
for intensive training, some remain with major fleet elements.  

Although they are Imperial Navy, the ships and their crews answer to the
subsector's Fleet Colonel (O-7), the officer in charge of all Marine
activities for the area.  In practice, this means the ships are under the
commander of the Regiment, since it is unlikely that the FltCol would
override his subordinate in matters concerning his Regiment.  Despite the
long rivalry between Marines and Navy, there is very little friction on
most Raiders, and the Navy crews express a great deal of pride in being
"mud-movers."


- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1286
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, December 18 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1287



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Striker - ATV (TL 8)
Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...
Re: Trepida tank
re : Striker HMGs
Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint
Re: T2000
Re: T2000
Striker Vehicle Damage Tables
Re: Background Music
Particle and Meson Beam Speeds
Re: Particle and Meson Beam Speeds
Re: GT: combat example, *long.*
Re: Particle and Meson Beam Speeds
Re: Carbon Dioxide taint
Re: Claymore Details
Re: Operation Plowshare
Re: TML  #1277 Housekeeping Maintenance:  Consumables
A _Pyramid_ Article of Interest
Re: T2000
Re: Trepida tank
re: Striker - ATV (TL 8)
re: T2000
Re: Background Music
Missile Bays (was re: High Guard optional rules: supply)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:28:09 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Striker - ATV (TL 8)

ATV (Tech Level 8)

   The vehicle has a crew of 2 (driver, commander) and carries 15 passengers.
Neither weapons nor fire control are installed. Height: 1.5 m. Width: 2.5 m.
Length: 6.3 m. Total Volume: 21.3 m^3. Weight: 9.4 tons. Flotation: yes.
Ground pressure = 5.9. Price: Cr 17,909.

   Movement: Road, 148 kph/123 cm; cross-country, 89 kph/74 cm; water 7 kph/
6 cm.
   Movement Effects on Fire: no weapons installed.
   Armour: Front, 12; sides/back, 10; deck, nil; belly, 2.
   Target Size DM's: +2 low.
   Equipment: none.
   Power: 0.6 megawatt MHD turbine consumes 180 liters of fuel per hour; fuel
capacity is 576 liters, enough for 3.2 hours. P/W ratio is 64; vehicle is Light.
   Weapons: none.

  Design notes: With an open top, you at least won't have a truckload of
paramilitary police complaining about comfort - barring sudden showers and
airbursts, anyway. You can probably put a nice canvas top on it, too. Lots
of potential for industrial work in the boonies, but it shouldn't be mistaken
for a combat vehicle, robust hull aside. Yet another ~2 Dt box when crated.

  It's built as a tracked vehicle mainly because I couldn't recall which JTAS
had suggestions on doing half-tracks...

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 03:45:53 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: CT Ship Design (Alpine Class Planetary Assault Ship (Type BT) - Gearhead ...

At 06:15 PM 18/12/98 +1300, you wrote:
>>At 09:41 PM 16/12/98 +1300, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>  MTU is a TL 11 maximum game, with TL 9 being Terran Sphere
>>>>average, so the IMG APC is *very* not an option.  Hence the
>>>>requirement to haul the G-Carriers down by assault shuttle.
>>>
>>>You may not be able to get into orbit  using a G-Carrier, but
>>>you should be able to drop them OK, they just fall until they
>>>tun on their  agrav and stop. Can't get down much faster
>>>than terminal velocity in a shuttle.
>>
>>        Ummmm...  What about re-entry friction?  I don't recall any
>>indication about heat-shields on G-Carriers...
>
>
>Several possibilities, choose a vector that minimizes heating, it is
>possible to re-enter the atmosphere without heat sheilding if you do
>it correctly. However, from memory that would not be a good military
>option, too much time in one flat trajectory, no chance to dodge enemy
>fire.

        SAM/ Sh!t magnet, for sure....

>Or use your agrav to slow your descent enough to avoid the heating, or
>just fit an ablative shield specially for such drops. (Sort of like
>the Sherman DD kit could be fitted for the landing and then removed )

        This is a good idea...  a "Jump Capsule" for the G Carriers
themselves....

>Obvioulsy this is not limited to G-Carriers, you could drop anything
>with good enough  agrav.

        The issue is getting it down to the surface fast enough to
re-enforce the landing.

>The major reason I would suggest this as an assult option is that if
>you have ten G-Carriers in a large shuttle and it gets shot down,
>you've lost ten G-Carriers and a shuttle. Also, if you haven't got
>many shuttles it will limit the speed at which you deploy your armour.
>
        Well, the one shuttle carries the entire complement of G-Carriers
for the 3 platoons doing the landing, but you are correct, it is an "all
eggs in one basket approach"....  

        Hmmm...  So a launch tube firing G-Carriers on re-entry sleds that
break away after touch down.  No reason the "sleds" couldn't be pulling the
same speed as the capsules (since the capsules can't be built under CT:HG
rules anyway).  Good idea.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:48:47 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Trepida tank

>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>Subject: Trepida tank
...
>Answer: poor design. The grav tanks Andrew Madden ("Count Leto of Tavonni")
>developed mounted a ship's fusion gun (Striker/MT penetration 103), a Z-gun
>as a secondary weapon and a RF-Y as a tertiary weapon/defence. The frontal
>armor was (from memory) AF 96, so I think it could almost withstand a

  Ooh, _real_ hardware. Sadly, the stuff I've been posting recently would
hardly count as enough intake to feed even one of those beasts...

>direct hit from its own weapon. It could survive being in the outer half of
>the primary blast radius of a nuke (although I can't remember what Striker
>would have ruled about its occupants!!). A computer-linked platoon could

  They'd be OK, but likely a bit peeved. Like an OGRE, a near miss would be
considered an enthusiastic back scratch to something that heavily armoured :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:49:51 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re : Striker HMGs

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: re : Striker HMGs
...
>Dont use HMGs in Striker. Use 20mm autocannon, especially with tailored
>burst sizes. Makes a nice mess of battledress, too.

  I'm still looking for my MICV designs :(  IAC, 7-9 pen is fine until TL B+
hardsuits arrive. By then you can have appropriate dedicated A-P capability;
even TL E+ battlesuits can hardly risk exposure to a VRF gauss gun (or an
auxiliary laser designed with pen ~24 or so).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:49:32 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint

Clif wrote:

> Why fatal?  Do Californians breathe dirt?

Haven't been to LA lately have ya...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:45:07 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: T2000

Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com wrote:

> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:58:57 -0500
> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> Subject: T2000
> I would have loved T2000 more, but when I played it I was living in an Army
> barracks and we all had had enough of the Army throughout the rest of the
> week!  LOL!
> *********
> I was in an army barracks as well, but we played a lot of T2K

  I played on a Aircraft Carrier, I usually had a equel balance of
sailors and marines.

Evyn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:50:44 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: T2000

Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com wrote:

> and yes we did play it during duty hours and call it 'traning in tactics',
> just like war movies were 'Training Films'

  Hell, I once played while on watch. Of the five stations online on
sound powered phones we had five gamers. That was the being of
my longest CT game, every other day for about 5 months.

Evyn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:11:01 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Striker Vehicle Damage Tables

 ...as the groups mechanic player returned from the corner store, he
was informed that the nose of their ATV had taken several hits from
a LAG before the bandits had been driven off by autoweapons fire, and
a damaging hit to the suspension had occurred. 

  Luckily they had a replacement crated in back and spare parts, too:

  "The ref still hasn't realized that the engine's in front, has he?"

  The standard Striker tables for Minor Penetrations against vehicles
always assume that the power plant is in back. If this is not the case
then the Front and Rear aspect columns can be exchanged, allowing the
correct damage results to be assessed against front-engined vehicles.

  FWIW, I'm pretty sure that the recent Striker vehicles posted were all
meant to be front-engined.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:34:34 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Background Music

At 13:11 17/12/1998 -0500, "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Soundtracks for Travellers

<snip>

>What are YOUR Soundtrack Music ideas and favorites to...

I once started a Call of Cuthulu session to the "Theme from Thunderbirds"
...
The volume had to be quite high because the sound system was in the room
*above* the Game room and I wanted to make sure they could hear it.

:-)

Phil Kitching

- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 03:01:23 -0600
From: Dave Seagraves <daveseag@io.com>
Subject: Particle and Meson Beam Speeds

   Some of you mentioned the possible velocities of a beam fired from a particle beam weapon.  I'd be very interested in having a good accurate figure for the speed of such a beam, preferably based on real life info.  Perhaps some atom smasher data.
   The speed matters because the slower the beam the more targeting suffers, because light and the particle beam only go so fast.  This effect is almost insignificant for lasers, but becomes very significant for a particle beam that only moves at say . . .  10% of lightspeed.  For instance, in GURPS Traveller space combat such a weapon would suffer an average of -1 to hit for every hex of range to the target.  Knowing the speed of the beam would help lock down this figure.
   The above question goes for meson beams too.  Do they travel /faster/ than lightspeed?  If so then there might be no significant accuracy penalty at all.  Interesting situation too: Aiming directly at your view of the target might mean that you really are pointing right at the target.  The fact that the target is two light-seconds away doesn't matter because the beam is sped up to go two seconds into the past!  (Or at least that's one sci-fi model).

   I'm not too happy with the GURPS Traveller space combat rules (mein gott . . .  lasers have an effective range of only 2-3 hexes!).  I'm fine-tuning a series of fixes to the rules, which looks pretty good after one playtest session.  I don't have a web site -- I'm a hardware guy, not software -- so anyone who wants a copy just drop me a line at my address below.  Comments appreciated.

Dave Seagraves
Seagraves Computers   Austin, TX   1 (512) 255-2760   daveseag@io.com
"I know /nothing/ . . .  I see /nothing/ . . ."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:48:12 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Particle and Meson Beam Speeds

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Dave Seagraves wrote:

>    The above question goes for meson beams too.  Do they travel /faster/ than
> lightspeed?  If so then there might be no significant accuracy penalty
> at all. Interesting situation too: Aiming directly at your view of the
> target might mean that you really are pointing right at the target.  The
> fact  that the target is two light-seconds away doesn't matter because
> the beam is sped up to go two seconds into the past!  (Or at least
> that's one sci-fi model).

  Mesons most assuredly are not faster than light. Mesons are an existing
family of elementary particles (consisitng at least of pions and kaons, my
memoty fails me again...), and _nothing_ in the observed universe travels
faster than light!
  I'd say meson beams would have to be pretty close to c, though. The
meson family particles have avereage lifetimes in the 10^-8 to 10^-16
regime, and to get the beam to reach 10 hexes berore decaying you clearly
need over a second of (particle frame) lifetime. That means a time
dilatation factor in the 10^8 range at least. My calculator fails me, but
that's a c fraction of _at least_  v/c = SQR( 1 - (10^-8)^2). Do the math
yourselves, it's a pretty mean velocity in any case.

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:02:58 +0200 (EET)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: GT: combat example, *long.*

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

 
> The way to fix this is not to make point defence less effective but to 
> introduce new types of missiles that are harder to shoot down but also do
> less damage. The two obvious choices are fragmentation - missiles that
> detonate a few hundred or thousand km out into a cloud of submunitions, 
> only a few of which will hit a (presumably evading) target for moderate
> damage - and det-laser for military applications.

  I agree wholeheartedly. I think kinetic kill submunition missiles might
be kept small. Adding terminal guidance (Such is not mentioned in GT at
least.), and passive maser/laser reflectors might allow a single 1spc
turret to spew out 4-6 missiles/ turn riding the same commo beam. This
would present a possibility of actually exhausting that 77 missile
magazine in a longer combat, and would also give you more of a chance to
overwhelm target's point defense. (Even with missiles detonating several
kiloklicks out PD lasers would still be quite a menace, I imagine.)
  For big brute lineship killers the good old 1/2 D.ton detonation nuke
missile seems like a pretty good alternative to me. (Also, what about 1
D.ton plus torpedoes with multiple large det warheads, sustained duration
drives and semiAI control systems?)
  BTW does anyone have decent BL stats for megaton scale detonation nukes?
Or is there maybe some enrgy limit to this type of system? 
 
- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:29:06 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Particle and Meson Beam Speeds

>   Some of you mentioned the possible velocities of a beam fired from a
>particle beam weapon.  I'd be very interested in having a good accurate
>figure for the speed of such a beam, preferably based on real life info.
>Perhaps some atom smasher data.
>   The speed matters because the slower the beam the more targeting
>suffers, because light and the particle beam only go so fast.  This effect
>is almost insignificant for lasers, but becomes very significant for a
>particle beam that only moves at say . . .  10% of lightspeed.  For
>instance, in GURPS Traveller space combat such a weapon would suffer an
>average of -1 to hit for every hex of range to the target.  Knowing the
>speed of the beam would help lock down this figure.
>   The above question goes for meson beams too.  Do they travel /faster/
>than lightspeed?  If so then there might be no significant accuracy
>penalty at all.  Interesting situation too: Aiming directly at your view
>of the target might mean that you really are pointing right at the target.
>The fact that the target is two light-seconds away doesn't matter because
>the beam is sped up to go two seconds into the past!  (Or at least that's
>one sci-fi model).


Mesons are guaranteed to travel at close to lightspeed in order for them to
live long enough to die inside the target. Particle beams would also move
close to lightspeed. I'd say for gaming purposes lasers, mesons and
particle beams all travel at c but as mesons need to hit the target at the
right depth as well some bonus for evasion when fired at by mesons should
be in effect (this I believe it does in Bruces system).


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 00:13:02 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide taint

>Greg Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I thought plant life *liked* CO2....
>
>Walter Smith wrote:
>>
>> The news report didn't list any fatalities (yet). They've got warnings
>> all around the region, and apparently the CO2 has caused quite a
>> bit of tree kill where it's worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Must be too much of a good thing. I can kill a tree with fertilizer if
>I add enough of it.
>
>Walt Smith

You can kill a human with too much oxygen.

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 00:16:57 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Claymore Details

>Did the VC hold the M26A1 in their hot little hands?  That's the way the
>story goes...as I said, still not sure whether somebody was pulling my
>leg.
>
AFAIK,
What they would do was sneak up on enemy positions, turn the claymores
around (especially the command detonated ones) and then stage an attack.
Boom Bang, dead GI's from their own claymores. Nice trick. Later the GI's
put luminous paint on the back of the claymores and could tell if they had
been turned.

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:33:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Operation Plowshare

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The preffered version was to use underground blasts, placed shallow
> enough that you'd get the maximum sized subsidence crater. This means
> that you don't really *have* cleanup, as the contaminated materials are
> under a 100 or more meters of rock. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Possibly the worst environmental effect such a canal would have had:
>
> The current Panama Canal goes up and down quite a bit, even crosses
> some fresh water rivers. Environments from salt to brackish to fresh,
> with locks in between - an effective barrier.
>
> A sea-level canal would have been salt (or at least brackish) all the
> way through, and would have effectively made the Eastern Pacific
> and Gulf of Mexico/Carribean one ocean. The ecological "adjustments"
> might have proven very uncomfortable for all concerned.

Even with the "barrier" they've found that some marine organisms have
been transported through the canal in bilge water.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:47:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TML  #1277 Housekeeping Maintenance:  Consumables

In mail you write:

>> I wonder if I can jump into the discussion concerning Logistics,
>> Housekeeping and Maintenance.  I've noticed that no one seems to have come
>> up with a definitive level as to consumables for human life support.  So I
>
> Certainly.
>
>> of calculations.  This would be enough basic food, water and staples for a
>> year.
>
> Extended Life Support has closed loop air, life support, food, and water.
> FFS2 keeps all but food, for which there are seperate rules IMO appropriate
> for only 'low' tech solutions (TL10- IMTU).  I rather think a high tech
> solution shoudl be innovative like fauxflesh vats and/or something to do w/
> cloning or maybe something else (any ideas?).  Enough that it won't
> significantly impact ship design (especially invalidating previous designs) ;
> ).  

Water recycling is *easy*, especially when you've got that fusion
reactor to supply heat and radiation. 

You remove the solids from the sewage, and use moderate heat to drive
off any remaining water. Optionally, you use some gamma radiation from
the reactor (or some other source) to sterilize the dried solids. They
get compacted and stored until planetfall. They are valuable biomass
for colonies and the like.

The water (and other liquids/gases) that are driven off are distilled.
The water goes back into the system, the other residues are burned to
water, CO2, and miscellaneous gases or otherwise converted to
manageable items.

Air recycling consists of several stages.

Primary stage is found on *all* craft and on most vac suits. It
consists of filters or other devices to remove excess water vapor,
excess CO2, and any unwanted chemicals (odors, etc) from the air.

Water is removed either by condensation, or by absorption. Absorption
involves chemicals that absorb water vapor. They *will* get saturated
and quit working. At this point they have to be heated to drive off the
wate, and you have to be able to do *something* with the released
water. Condensers just need power for refrigeration, and tankage to
store the water in. (You *will* wind up with more water than you
started with).

CO2 is absorbed by chemicals such as lithium hydroxide or calcium
hydroxide. These *can* be revived, but it's a messy process, and you'd
then still have to get rid of the CO2 some other way. 

Other chemicals are dealt with by activated charcoal. As with all the
other primary "filters" it will get saturated eventually. Re-activating
the filters is another process best left for a larger installion that
has secondary systems.

Secondary systems recovers the filtered water via condensation. It is
then turned over to the water recycling systems.

Given that ships need to be able to cool things to LH2 temperatures,
they may also remove CO2 via condensation. At about 70 atmospheres
pressure, CO2 will liquefy at low temps (at lower pressures it stays a
gas until it condenses out as a solid "frost" like coating of dry ice).
Oxygen and nitrogen can be seperated as well if the designer so
desires. Anything else is probably worth storing (liquid argon, etc do
have value).

The CO2 could be stored, or more likely broken down electrically or via
the high temps available from the reactor.

The "unwanted chemicals" and odors would either be handled by activated
charcoal, or by using high temps or addition of ozone to break them
down into more easily handled gases. 

None of the above require overly large equipment, given the volumes
dedicated to life support.
 
Food recycling requires a fair amount of space for plants and "animals"
(could be things like fish or salamanders). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:35:47 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: A _Pyramid_ Article of Interest

New in _Pyramid_ this weekL:

Some Classic Randomness, by Robert M. Brown. GURPS Traveller replaces the
old, classic random character generation system of the original Traveller
with the GURPS system we all know and love. But for those of you who might
miss the old random method, here it is updated to GURPS Traveller.

Thought y'all would like to know.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:40:42 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: T2000

You have to admit, play aids were easy to come by.  And not having to
describe and explain each piece of equipment sped up things tremendously!

John

- -----Original Message-----
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com <Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 9:07 AM
Subject: T2000


>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:58:57 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: T2000
>I would have loved T2000 more, but when I played it I was living in an Army
>barracks and we all had had enough of the Army throughout the rest of the
>week!  LOL!
>*********
>I was in an army barracks as well, but we played a lot of T2K
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:17:36 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Trepida tank

At 11:48 PM 17/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>>Subject: Trepida tank
>...
>>Answer: poor design. The grav tanks Andrew Madden ("Count Leto of Tavonni")
>>developed mounted a ship's fusion gun (Striker/MT penetration 103), a Z-gun
>>as a secondary weapon and a RF-Y as a tertiary weapon/defence. The frontal
>>armor was (from memory) AF 96, so I think it could almost withstand a
>
>  Ooh, _real_ hardware. Sadly, the stuff I've been posting recently would
>hardly count as enough intake to feed even one of those beasts...
>
>>direct hit from its own weapon. It could survive being in the outer half of
>>the primary blast radius of a nuke (although I can't remember what Striker
>>would have ruled about its occupants!!). A computer-linked platoon could
>
>  They'd be OK, but likely a bit peeved. Like an OGRE, a near miss would be
>considered an enthusiastic back scratch to something that heavily armoured :)
>
>

        Now *there* is a good first Striker design project for me...  an
OGRE....  Hmmmmm....
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:06:29 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Striker - ATV (TL 8)

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  It's built as a tracked vehicle mainly because I couldn't recall which JTAS
had suggestions on doing half-tracks...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maybe some gearheads here can answer this question:

What's the advantage of a half-track over a full-track?

Speed? Maneuverability? Maintenance? Cost?

I notice I haven't seen many (any?) half-tracks built lately.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:10:43 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: T2000

Evyn MacDude wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hell, I once played while on watch. Of the five stations online on
sound powered phones we had five gamers. That was the being of
my longest CT game, every other day for about 5 months.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm just imagining a CO picking up the phone and hearing what
you and your players are talking about.

..as the base goes on Alert due to an alien attack on the watch
stations... <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:42:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Roger Storm <kahn265@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Background Music

While this was better suited for a Vampire campaign, I really like

Black Aria by Glen Danzig

It is not Metal, but a very dark brooding soundtrack. It is a sorta
classical sounding CD. I recommend it to anyone.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:43:08 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Missile Bays (was re: High Guard optional rules: supply)

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I was reading a respondent's mention of 1st edition HG magazines - 
>how they could be up to 50tns per missile bay for planetary
>bombardment purposes. This sounds useful, though I have been
>wondering how much of the bay itself is missile launcher and how
>much is ready stores. A 100tn missile bay isn't a bank of 50 2tn
>vertical launch racks, like some ballistic missile submarine - it's
>more like a torpedo bay IMO. Still, you could be very correct to
>push a missile-armed ship's cargo requirments upwards.

Depends on how much combat endurance you want to give the ship. Your
average trader with a missile turret is probably happy with `one up the
spout, three on the ready rack'. You missile destroyer will want *a lot*
of missiles it you're planning to besiege a planet with it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was considering the idea that a 100tn missile bay might consist of
about ten tons of launch equipment, ten tons or so of advanced ECCM
and missile direction gear, and 80tns of "ready rack" missiles. A 50tn
missile bay might have fewer tubes, less extensive dedicated electronics,
and a smaller missile load (so it's less able to maintain fire volume), thus
explaining the lower missile factor.

Some people see a missile bay as being like the ballistic missile tubes
on a Trident submarine - the whole volume is taken up by launch tubes.
I'm thinking they may be more like the torpedo room on an attack sub,
with a quantity of launch tubes and a larger quantity of ready stores.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1287
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, December 18 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1288



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Missile Bays
re: Striker - ATV (TL 8)
OGREs
Re: Fire Support for Marines
Re: Striker HMGs
Re: Background Music
Quoting
Re: Jump Capsules?
Re: Missiles in G:T
Half-Track
Digesting Aliens (was "Colonizing hellholes")
Slight COnfusion
Re: Background Music
Missiles in G:T
Jump Capsules?
Re: T2000
Re: GT: combat example, *long.*
Re: GT: combat example Private...
Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules
RE: Missiles in G:T

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:22:43 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Missile Bays

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Missile Bays (was re: High Guard optional rules: supply)
...
>I was considering the idea that a 100tn missile bay might consist of
>about ten tons of launch equipment, ten tons or so of advanced ECCM
>and missile direction gear, and 80tns of "ready rack" missiles. A 50tn
>missile bay might have fewer tubes, less extensive dedicated electronics,
>and a smaller missile load (so it's less able to maintain fire volume), thus
>explaining the lower missile factor.

  Striker supports your view of the rough ratio of tubes to other stuff
by specifying in the High Guard integration rules section that bays are
considered to have X (not terribly great) number of Y size (pretty damn
small, considering a warship at least 1000 Dt) missiles; multiple volley
capability is implied, IIRC. Book 2, near the back.

  Most high-tech tanks could survive such a HEAP (best under rules - no
crowbar creation sequence/stats) hit to their fronts, maybe even a side.
It's a damn shame that the target aspect would be "Top".

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:23:12 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Striker - ATV (TL 8)

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
...
>What's the advantage of a half-track over a full-track?
>Speed? Maneuverability? Maintenance? Cost?
>I notice I haven't seen many (any?) half-tracks built lately.

  AFAIK it's largely just that you can build them using different
(scarce) production resources - important when your output of full
tracklayers is vitally needed elsewhere; i.e., they suck :)  but it
would be nice to be able to simulate the hardware of worlds that
have that limitation and/or don't know any better.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:23:29 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: OGREs

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Re: Trepida tank
...
>        Now *there* is a good first Striker design project for me...  an
>OGRE....  Hmmmmm....

  Striker doesn't handle them very well at all; you're better off with
grav (OK - locals ain't got it), and the combat system doesn't model a
vehicle that takes multiple Major pens/Catastrophic results to kill.

  You could, however, design one (roughly) under High Guard :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:12:23 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

Steve Charlton wrote:
> IMTU, there is an ascending hierarchy of support weapons and
> options.  The Marine squad will have grenades, some PGMP/FGMP
> weapons maybe, and perhaps some man-portable TAC Missiles (sort
> of like miniature Cruise msisiles).  A platoon would have the
> same sorts of weapon, with the heavy weapons (TAC Missiles,
> PGMPS and FGMPs) definitely being present.

At squad and platoon levels don't overlook ye-olde  slugthrowers,
especially when the danger space of a PGMP/FGMP or TAC Missile is
inappropriate to the mission.

According to Challenge 64, a squad-level support weapon for  ACR-
armed troops is the 7mm LMG-10 and 9mm LMG-10  (which  can  share
ammo with the equivalent ACR).  A squad-level support weapon  for
gauss rifle-equipped troops is the 4mm Gauss  LMG-12  (which  can
share ammo with the 4mm gauss rifle).  And finally, the  4mm  LRF
Gauss Gun ... a PC favorite! ... (which can share ammo  with  the
VRF gauss gun):  "It can be carried by battle dress as a  'light'
support weapon."

IMTU Imperial Marines are "heavied  up"  special  forces  (having
more in common with the SAS than the  USMC),  often  deployed  to
take/hold starports and key  urban  targets.  Surgical  precision
and lack of colateral damage is usually more important  than  raw
firepower.  Thus, while they can call upon FGMPs  and  the  like,
their preferred weapons are the various form of gauss  gun  (from
the near silent gauss pistol, to the VRF gauss  gun  at  platoon-
level).

Imperial Marines typically ride in a TL15 Empress Grav APC, while
regular army troops get the TL14 Astrin Grav APC (101 Vehicles).

Additionally, while the bulk of the IM are  carried  in  company-
sized units with fleets, 5% travel on Iylvir class Light  Assault
Troop Carriers (IISS  Ship  Files).  [CT:  200-ton,  Jump-2,  2G,
Crew=7, Marines=28, 4 GCarriers and equipment or 72 tons cargo].

All this contradicts the  article  "Imperial  Marine  Task  Force
Organization" in JTAS 12, which  states  that  all  IM  personnel
(even admin and logistics  units,  but  not  medical  staff)  are
equipped with battle dress and FGMP-14s.



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - Mr Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:21:28 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Striker HMGs

Ian Whitchurch wrote:
> Dont use HMGs in Striker. Use 20mm autocannon, especially with
> tailored burst sizes. Makes a nice mess of battledress, too.


Don't forget VRF gauss guns,  LRF  gauss  guns,  etc.  Check  out
"Missing  Links"  in  Challenge  64  for  MT  stats   (should  be
convertable to Striker).



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - Mr Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:20:43 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Background Music

Clif wrote:
> Soundtracks for Travellers
<snip>

> While I suspect that picking particular tracks for specific game
> sequences can heighten the effect of background music on a game,
> I never had the coordination to get an effort like that together.

<snip>
> Also consider "Sound Effects" CD's and .wav files available for
> download on the 'Net.
<snip>
> What are YOUR Soundtrack Music ideas and favorites to...

I've been experimenting with this with some  success  ever  since
the soundtracks article in Digest 17 (many years ago).  I started
with sound effects (rather than straight music):

In an old briefcase I mounted  4  cheap  auto-reversing  walkmans
with  the headphone sockets linked into a budget mic  mixer  from
Radio Shack, and  from  there  into  a  boom  box.  Taking  sound
effects from specialised albums (vinyl), cassettes,  and  CDs,  I
would dub the same sound over and over to fill a blank tape (both
sides).  Using the mixer set  up  allowed  me  to  either  create
'scenes' on the fly, cue up the next 'scene', and switch  between
'scenes' when the party splits up.  The trick for this to work is
to limit yourself  primarily  to  'ambiant'  sounds  rather  than
'event' sounds (otherwise  you  end  up  playing  DJ  instead  of
GM'ing).  I have a growing library of over 64 tapes:

- - starship general background hum
- - starship engin background hum
- - bridge bleeps
- - starport tarmac noise
- - starport bar sounds
- - rain
- - wind
- - polar wind (within minuets people actually feel colder!)
- - seagulls
- - low tech urban sounds
- - mid tech urban sounds
- - distant ground combat (with sparodic sniper fire ... actually a
  firework display sound effect!)
- - air raid siren
- - red alert/battle stations
- - decompression alarm (my fav <evil grin>)
and so on.

More recently, I've started to use music as well:

- - For the opening theme music for a Traveller session I  use  the
  first 64 seconds of "Prologue" from the Evil Dead  3  (Army  of
  Darkness) album, and "Manly Men" from the same  album  for  the
  ending theme.

- - "The Imperial March" from The Empire Strikes Back album is good
  when an Imperial fleet is present.

- - "Klingons" from Star Trek III (The Search For Spock) does  well
  when a Sword Worlds fleet is present.

- - When exploring the ruins of an Ancient site (on an  uninhabited
  planet) its hard to beat "The  Alien  Planet"  from  the  Alien
  soundtrack album.

- - And when that same Ancient site wasn't as  dead  as  the  party
  would have liked,  I  switched  to  "The  Cenobites"  from  the
  Hellraiser album.

- - I did try "The Canteena" from the Star  Wars  album  but  after
  eight or nine loops it gets very irritating.  I'll have to  try
  something else.

Finally, I just discovered FX Master ... sharware from Wintertree
Software.  That allows you to  have  150  WAV  files  set  up  on
Windows buttons.  So with a second hand laptop I can now do event
sounds.  (Haven't tried it yet, but soon.)



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - Mr Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:56:49 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Quoting

Could I request that people take a bit of time to edit quoted messages
down to the relevant sections? 

We really don't need to see the message headers and sigs again. Those
getting the TML direct can just ignore the bottom of the message, but
those of us on the TML digest have to scroll past the original message
over and over and...   And those of us paying per byte have to pay for old
data over and over and...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:45:05 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Capsules?

Gee, I didn't know that "Starship Trooper" was a book written in 1959.  Wow!
Guy was obviously ahead of his time on that idea.

CT Striker?  Oh, Classic Traveller?

Mannn, and I thought I had thought it up.  :)

==Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:49:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Missiles in G:T

Ian or Katts writes:
> 
> The other issue that makes massed missile use difficult in G:T is use of
> nuclear missiles in a point defense role.
> 
> The other issue is that G:T standard lasers are not optimised for use
> against lasers. Could someone with the appropriate Gurps supplement please
> design a Gurps equivalent to the Famile Spofulam 'Signature' class point
> defense laser ?

Well, exactly what weapons are optimized against missiles depends on the sort
of missiles; since you generally know what angle missiles are going to be shot
at from you can actually armor them fairly seriously, particularly if you allow
ablative armor (I've seen missile designs for a (non-traveller) TL 9 space
setting in GURPS which had more than 2,000 DR from the frontal arc.  They were
a couple of tons each.  They also carried X-ray detlasers with an effective
range of some 8,000 miles, so point defense systems were actually significantly
larger than the standard traveller lasers...).

Dedicated point defense weaponry against non-detlasers really only needs a
range of a few hundred miles under normal circumstances; how about a
lightweight fusion gun?  Much better armor penetration than the laser.

Say, a 90 MJ TL 10 fusion gun with extreme range and RoF 3 (8400 lb, 168 cf,
$650k) doing 6d*100 with Acc 26 and 1/2 of 1,100 mi, Max 3,300 mi.  Add full
stabilization (840 lb, $84k, 16.8 cf) and a universal mount (4200 lb, $8.4k, 84
cf).  It uses 180 MJ per shot, a rechargeable energy bank with 180 MJ at TL 10
is 10 lb and $1k.  We'll give it 150 shots for 1,500 lb, $150k, 15 cf.  We fill
remaining space with a 18 megawatt fusion power slice (3,600 lb, 72 cf, $180k)
and access space (144 cf), which recharges a shot every 10 seconds.  Total
18,540 lb (9.3 tons), $1.07 MCr, 1 space (499.8 cf).

Note that high RoF/capacity weaponry should probably not have the -2 per
successive attempt penalty for standard lasers.  Yes, this makes missiles even
_less_ useful.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:59:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Half-Track

Not speaking as an expert, but it seems to have been early All Terrain
capabilities, or at least enough to slog through a muddy dirt road or winter
slush.

Did you see those cool half-track motorcycles in "Saving Private Ryan"?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:18:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Digesting Aliens (was "Colonizing hellholes")

Hi all.

Again, just skimming this thread, but I had an interesting idea I thought
I might share.  Regarding the problem of wrong-handed proteins and the
like, might it not be easier to modify the colonist than the colony?  I'm
not talking about wholesale genetic engineering of people, but rather of
the intestinal flora and fauna that help us digest foods.  How hard would
it be to develop some geneered microbes that one could take, perhaps in
pill form, to help one digest local proteins and sugars?  Ideally, it
would be nice to have some really versatile microbes that could handle a
variety of basic biochemistries, but if you had to tailor-make a batch for
each world, that would still be easier (it seems) than fighting the local
eco-system. 

If you can develop the broad-spectrum variety, then these would be taken
by travellers as a matter of course.  I picture them being "imperfect" in
their treatment of various biochemistries, so that you can digest a broad
range of things, but you might get cramps, sugar rushes (as all the carbs
get busted into simple sugars), or other problems ("Oh man, who let
fly!?" "Sorry, it's the Zhdaqiatz beans again, I love them but they don't
love me...").

If only the world-specific variety are available, they would probably be
sold at the starport to incoming tourists (assuming you want tourists),
and there might be biological specialty dealing with the design of such
things.

Of course none of this is canon as there have been several references to
restaurants with menus guiding tourists away from indigestible foods and
so on (the latest in G:T Aliens 1), but it doesn't exactly break the
universe either.  

Charles.

- -----
"Can anything truly meaningful be said in just a single line? Maybe, maybe
not." 
Charles Collin \\ McGill Psychology \\ http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl
Ph: (514) 398-6151 \\ FAX: (514) 398-4896 \\  charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:20:27 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Slight COnfusion

In the spirit or semi-off-topic posts, apparently
this person thinks that airport security devices
are a lot more sophisticated than I thought they were...

(in response to asking about why people have to turn on their
laptops at airport gate security checkpoints)

> some other zach wrote:
> > does anyone know exactly what they're testing for?
> 
> They are looking for (and I might have the particular particle wrong)
> "neutrinos" that have passed through explosives and tend to get lodged
> in
> metallic objects like your case's zipper, etc.  The device is similar to
> a
> spectrometer in that it can read very, very small concentrations.  Much
> better, IMHO that the minimum wage dolt asking you to turn on everything
> with an "on" button....

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:44:43 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Background Music

Peter Trevor:

Could you make some of these sounds available for download on the net?


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:51:26 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Missiles in G:T

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:44:53
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Missiles in G:T
The other issue that makes massed missile use difficult in G:T is use of
nuclear missiles in a point defense role.
**************
for military ships, yes.  hard to factor it in though.

I believe that a single large nuke will force low-armour missiles to
disperse, which means fewer missiles for the point-defense missiles to deal
with at one time.
*************
perhaps a bonuse +2 to +4 for dispersion? with a possible kill on all of
them if you don't dispers?


The other issue is that G:T standard lasers are not optimised for use
against lasers. Could someone with the appropriate Gurps supplement please
design a Gurps equivalent to the Famile Spofulam 'Signature' class point
defense laser ?
********
Against missiles?  Hal has some on his page I belive, howeveri havent had a
chance to look at them. remember you want the minimum damage to stop a
single missle, you cant make the lasers much smaller without losing that.
you could even call them PD lasers as is.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:47:09 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Jump Capsules?

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:52:06 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Jump Capsules?
Jump Capsule?  I thought that was MY idea!  I used it back in '88 and a
failed coolant system could result in a burn up during reentry, yes.
I thought of it as the ultimate HALO jump (High Altitude Low Open).
***********
Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:22:35 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: T2000

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:21:26 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: T2000
Well, waddya know!  I think I might have seen you guys in the OLD PX on Ft.
Wainwright?  I was there from Feb. 87 to Sep 89.  The new PX was finished
not long before I left.
**********
in 87 was when we moved into the HHC building (doubling up, fitting 3
battalions in the space of one.  from the old PX it was past the snack bar
and across the street.


Was that you, then?
********
well we *were* the only ones on post with berets.


Man, "training in tactics".  Unreal!
************
what else would you cal if if the platoon sargent walked in? (he sat down
to watch).


Remember that hobby shop in downtown Fairbanks?
*********
yeah I used to bike to it (car ins. was way too high to buy a car there.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:17:42 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: combat example, *long.*

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:51:35 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: GT: combat example, *long.*
>[long example of missile attack deleted[
>> At the very least, the bonus for Point
>>defense missile fire should be +8 instead of +10.
>I am thinking allong the lines of +6
I disagree, strongly, for two reasons.
****************
we were talking of an attack when the target ship has *no* warning of the
attack until the PD phase.  the gunners ar mostly racked out, and have to
get to the turrents and warm up the lasers.

[snip stuff that everone (in this disucusion at least) agrees with]


The way to fix this is not to make point defence less effective but to
introduce new types of missiles that are harder to shoot down but also do
less damage. The two obvious choices are fragmentation - missiles that
detonate a few hundred or thousand km out into a cloud of submunitions,
only a few of which will hit a (presumably evading) target for moderate
damage - and det-laser for military applications.
**************
working on it....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:14:25 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: combat example Private...

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:41:27 -0500
From: Fred and Evelyn Wolke <thewolkes@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: GT: combat example Private...
>
>You and I both know this is a crock of bull.  This means then, that a
>missile travelling 60 hexes per turn may *NOT* hit a target that is closer
>than 54 hexes (allowing for a SIM-10) or 50 hexes for a SIM-12.
>  That would be like saying, that unless a man is exactly 400 yards away
>when you fire a bullet that travels 400 yards per second - you can't hit.
Yep, it's unrealistic.  Do you want to make missiles MORE deadly?  Can you
present a playable, more realistic, balanced alternative?
**************
I tried, but ending in the same hex has a lot of plusses:
It keeps the velocities down.
missiles need more Gs than the taget, or the target runs rings around them.
there ar no arguments about tbone shots.

an example of an arguement:
it doesn't pass through the hex.
it passed through where the ship would have been during that part of the
turn.
did not
did too.
Ad Nausium,

if it has to be in the hex, no room for argument.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:08:48 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:46:37 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: GT: combat example Private...
Hello Aerron,
  I suspect we should bring this to a private set up before people start
complaining <grin>...
*********
well they seem fairly interested so far :)



>I suspect that part of the reasoning is due to game ballance as well.

Ah yes - the infamous D&D mentality that says "you forget your spells
because we say so - even if it has no bearing on reality".
You and I both know this is a crock of bull.  This means then, that a
missile travelling 60 hexes per turn may *NOT* hit a target that is closer
than 54 hexes (allowing for a SIM-10) or 50 hexes for a SIM-12.
  That would be like saying, that unless a man is exactly 400 yards away
when you fire a bullet that travels 400 yards per second - you can't hit.
*********************
that is kind of what I said, but I hope it can be slipped in as an optional
rule, if not, I can live with lower missile velocities (the numbers dont
get quite as big.)

I think a blowthrough rule is in order, set a max limit based on the armor
of the target?



>  One rule change that might make this worthwhile?  Treat a missile swarm
>as being equal to 1/5th their size as a "single ship".
>*************
>now that is a Good Idea (TM).  I like that alot.
This can also be adapted to ships that are in close formation (ie all in
the same hex).
***************
it would save on a lot of rolling :)




Hmmm - maybe I have been using the missile rules incorrectly.  I have
always assumed that any active attack can be countered by an active
defense.  But the way the rules read - it looks as though the contest of
skills is similar in GURPS terms, to the grapple attack...  <shudder>.  If
this is the case, it muddies up the statistics for how many missiles hit
and how many missiles are actively outmanuevered.
Example of why I hate there being no dodge to missile attacks!!!


Again, it seems to contradict the philosophy of GURPS.  An active attack
can be defended against with an active defense.  The method above removes
any chance of an active defense, and gives an incredible edge to what
amounts to a SPACE version of a TOW anti-tank missile.  Again... if this is
the actual "rule", <speachlessness...>
**************
I take it you think it is bad enough to need changing then? :)




Ok, you are correct.  You may target different turrets per round at
different missiles.
Thus, if you have 60 turrets, and 200 missiles incoming, you are entitled
to target the missiles as you see fit.
Round 1: 200 missiles, (assuming the standard 5% miss ratio) 60 shots, 3
misses.
Round 2: 200-57 missiles with again, 3 misses.
Round 3: 143-57 missiles with standard 3 misses.
round 4:  86-57 missiles with standard 3 missiles
Round 5: 29 missiles with one standard missile.
Round 6: last remaining missile can't possibly be missed by ship with 60
gunners gunning for it... right? <grin>
************
well they do get a -10 to skill on round 6....
200 missiles should get few through a 60 turret defense (fireing once per
turret that is).


Skill 14 gunners +14 acc + 9 target computer + 10 Point defense bonus + 5
max non-point defense laser RoF bonus = base 52 - 39 range = 13.
Round 1 to hits are 13 = 84% success rate.
Round 2 to hits are 11 = 63% success rate
Round 3 to hits are  9 = 38% success rate
Round 4 to hits are  7 = 16% success rate
Round 5 to hits are  5 =  5% success rate
This re-evaluates to:
200 incoming:
1) 50 destroyed
2) 38 destroyed
3) 23 destroyed
4) 10 destroyed
5)  3 destroyed
This is only 114 destroyed out of a firing rate of
************
this matchs the numbers I get if you only roll once per turret.


>
>For each PD turret the target has you need about 6 missiles (depending on
>skill and tech level) to swamp the defenses in one salvo.
The point defense aspect of HIGH GUARD is implied where if you use lasers
offensively, you can't use them defensively.  I will have to double check,
or see if that ruling was a house rule <Grin>.
********************
Please, I think that you shouldn't be able to use them twice, but it is not
stated in GT either way(implying useing them twice).






  Like I said, we should actuall create a CA, then do the battle as I had
originally suggested.  Ie, we assume the high speed run, and then do the
200 missiles.  Use the rules as originally written with the "crock of bull"
ruling <grin>, and then the "advanced rules" aspect that you can introduce
in your pending book.
*************
ok, will a 30,000 space TL 12 ship do?

New rules to consider:
Surprise attacks: All surprise attacks deduct a set amount from the Point
defense bonus rated upon the type of crew the ship has on average.  If
Average crew, then the penalty is only X.  If raw or green, the penalty is
total (ie no +10 bonus).  If veteran crew, maybe -6, if crack, -4, and if
elite, -2 (or some such set up).
**********************8
so raw and green +0, Vetran +4, crack +6 and elite +8.
I like that, but think green should get a +2 in a suprise attack (they have
some training in it at least, and dont get lost on the way to the gunner
station :)


I would also like to introduce the concept of what range band you discover
the missiles via sensors before you can fire upon them.  As it now stands -
David Pulver announced after the fact that if you have not detected
missiles until they are in your hex, you automatically detect them IN your
hex.  This does not make rational sense to me.  Since the missiles have
*NO* chance of being detected prior to impact if fired from outside a
ship's sensor range, then why do they automatically get detected at a range
of 5,000 miles?
******************8
perhaps a -2 for no detection until the PD phase?


Introduce the concept of a dodge versus an active attack... as stated,
missile fire attacks are too much like a grapple attack with absolutely NO
defense!
***********
that would be nice, how about ramming to hit:
skill + 1/2 rammer size + 1/2 Target size
and target to dodge:
skill/2(or was it /3) - target size (no bonus for accel, if you have more
accel, the rammer already missed.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:53:44 -0600
From: Dave Seagraves <daveseag@io.com>
Subject: RE: Missiles in G:T

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A85.74952160
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well, exactly what weapons are optimized against missiles depends on the sort
of missiles; since you generally know what angle missiles are going to be shot
at from you can actually armor them fairly seriously, particularly if you allow
ablative armor (I've seen missile designs for a (non-traveller) TL 9 space

   The counter to that is to make a proximity-fused "top attack" =
missile, which purposely flies past the target, bypasses the most =
heavily armored side (like the bow), and explodes against another side =
that isn't armored as well.  Of course there's no kinetic damage and the =
warhead does it all.  This could still come as a nasty surprise to a =
task force commander who smugly hides behind his wall of thick armor.  I =
still like the idea of ablative armor, though.
   I also like the "scatter-pack" missile full of submunitions -- =
another nasty idea.  I remember a sci-fi story I read some time ago =
which featured the use of one to damage one end of a dumbbell-shaped =
alien spacecraft.  The computer game Master of Orion also features them.

Dave Seagraves
Seagraves Computers   Austin, TX   1 (512) 255-2760   daveseag@io.com

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A85.74952160
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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==

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A85.74952160--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1288
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Friday, December 18 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1289



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

alien races list
Re: T2000
Re: Missiles in G:T
Re: Slight COnfusion
Re: Missiles in G:T
Re: Digesting Aliens (was "Colonizing hellholes")
Re: Slight COnfusion
Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint
Re: TML  #1277 Housekeeping Maintenance:  Consumables
RE: Missiles in G:T
Re: Slight COnfusion
2 Pistols?
Re: Slight COnfusion
Re: 2 Pistols?
Trade and Brokers
World Rotation Period?
Re: Background Music
Re: Colonising hellholes
Galactic 2.4 Patch #1 (come and get it)
Re: Jump Capsules?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:53:57 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: alien races list

I've found three documents which are different but appear to have the
same common source, and I'm wondering which is the most up-to-date:

http://members.aol.com/kagehiha/traveller/racelist.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4224/contact/aliens.html
http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/SV/TRAV/aliens.html

Also, the problem I've found with all three is that the cited sources
DO NOT give all the information present.  For example, the Jgd-II-Jagd 
minor race are given a location on these lists that the cited reference
(JTAS #17) does not have.

Is there another published reference?


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:14:55 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: T2000

>in 87 was when we moved into the HHC building (doubling up, fitting 3
>battalions in the space of one.  from the old PX it was past the snack bar
>and across the street.
>

Yeah, but I think I saw some of you guys who had played T2000 in the "lobby"
of the Old PX, where you used to turn in your film for development.
>
>Was that you, then?
>********
>well we *were* the only ones on post with berets.
>

Hehe, actually, there was LRSD (Long Range Surveillance Detachment) that was
part of 4-9th Cav Squadron, but then they were moved to the General's HQ.
They wore Airborne berets, too.  That was a sad day for me.  I thought those
guys were cool.
>
>Man, "training in tactics".  Unreal!
>************
>what else would you cal if if the platoon sargent walked in? (he sat down
>to watch).
>
>
LOL!

>Remember that hobby shop in downtown Fairbanks?
>*********
>yeah I used to bike to it (car ins. was way too high to buy a car there.)
>

Yeah, I didn't have a car, either.  When I got to Ft. Wainwright, I was
about 17 years old.
>
>
You ever play an Play by Mail?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:25:17 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Missiles in G:T

>since you generally know what angle missiles are going to be shot
>at from you can actually armor them fairly seriously

Only in G:T, where vectored-thrust ships appear able to accelerate in any
direction (does this entail physically tipping the T-plates or some magic that
lets thrust come out in arbitrary directions?). Otherwise, if thrust always
comes out the back, to evade or even just match targets acceleration you need
to turn a fair amount.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:34:53
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

At 01:20 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:

>(in response to asking about why people have to turn on their
>laptops at airport gate security checkpoints)
>
>> some other zach wrote:
>> > does anyone know exactly what they're testing for?

Making sure that it really is a computer, and not a small bomb or carrying
case for two 9mm pistols.

Doug

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:37:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Missiles in G:T

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
> 
> Only in G:T, where vectored-thrust ships appear able to accelerate in any
> direction (does this entail physically tipping the T-plates or some magic
> that lets thrust come out in arbitrary directions?). Otherwise, if thrust
> always comes out the back, to evade or even just match targets acceleration
> you need to turn a fair amount.

Bah, it depends on G ratios.  You can get half your Gs in sideways manuever by
a 30 degree change in thrust angle; if we assume that the thrusters can be
gimballed by 15 degrees (perfectly reasonable) any hits on side armor will be
against a 75 degree slope, which won't be very effective, and those hits will
be rare anyway.  A reasonably designed missile can do 12 Gs without much
effort.

Incidentally, those vector thrust systems increase drive weight by 50%...

Besides, as I mentioned, these were det-laser warheads.  Matching target
acceleration wasn't a big concern.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:34:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Digesting Aliens (was "Colonizing hellholes")

In mail you write:

> Hi all.
>
> Again, just skimming this thread, but I had an interesting idea I thought
> I might share.  Regarding the problem of wrong-handed proteins and the
> like, might it not be easier to modify the colonist than the colony?  I'm
> not talking about wholesale genetic engineering of people, but rather of
> the intestinal flora and fauna that help us digest foods.  How hard would
> it be to develop some geneered microbes that one could take, perhaps in
> pill form, to help one digest local proteins and sugars?  Ideally, it
> would be nice to have some really versatile microbes that could handle a
> variety of basic biochemistries, but if you had to tailor-make a batch for
> each world, that would still be easier (it seems) than fighting the local
> eco-system. 

Ok, the problem is this. Our digestive system *normally* breaks
carbohydrates (sugars, starches, and a few other things) down into
simple sugars such as glucose. The enzymes involved may or may not work
on the wrong-handed sugars. I *think* they do. 

Likewise, protiens are broken down into their component amino acids.
And I am pretty sure that this will happen regardless of handedness.

So you've got all these sugars and amino acids floating around in the
digestive tract. First problem is keeping the wrong ones from getting
into the blood-stream. And that *alone* is next to impossible. 

Next, you have the problem that changing the handedness requires
breaking down the compound and rebuilding it. *Completely*. Breaking
them down will release energy, but it takes that much energy *plus*
some extra to rebuild them the other way. 

Bacteria are *not* going to do that except to build their own tissues.
Which means they are getting the energy and raw materials, not you. 

The stuff that intestinal flora *do* help digest are *complex*
chemicals that our digestive system can't handle. The bacteria get some
energy by (for example) breaking cellulose down into starches and
sugars. The "waste" starches and sugars can then be processed by normal
digestion.

But when the problem is the *simple* sugars and the amino acids, you
are dealing with stuff that's *already* been broken down as far as you
can without winding up with inorganic chemicals. Plants and bacteria
can deal with stuff at that level, animals can't. 

And, as I noted, the bacteria dealing with it wouldn't leave any
*usable* waste.

To use bacteria to process native foods, you'd have to do it
*externally*, and then eat the bacteria. For example, you might be able
to use yeasts to ferment the "wrong" sugars into alcohol. Or to convert
them into lipids (fats and oils) which tend to *not* have handedness.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:49:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

In mail you write:

> In the spirit or semi-off-topic posts, apparently
> this person thinks that airport security devices
> are a lot more sophisticated than I thought they were...
>
> (in response to asking about why people have to turn on their
> laptops at airport gate security checkpoints)
>
>> some other zach wrote:
>> > does anyone know exactly what they're testing for?
>> 
>> They are looking for (and I might have the particular particle
>> wrong) "neutrinos" that have passed through explosives and tend to
>> get lodged in metallic objects like your case's zipper, etc.  The
>> device is similar to a spectrometer in that it can read very, very
>> small concentrations.  Much better, IMHO that the minimum wage dolt
>> asking you to turn on everything with an "on" button....

<sigh>

Sheesh. How hard is it to realize that turning on computers etc gives
at least a *bit* more assurance that they aren't a dummy unit stuffed
with explosives?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:03:39 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint

Walt Smith wrote:

>An odd environmental hazard. Seems a dormant volcano in
>California is causing carbon dioxide to seep into the soil in
>the surrounding area. During wintertime the snow pack
>concentrates the CO2 seeping out, and under some conditions the
>concentrations can reach fatal levels. 

>Obtrav: An example of a possible "taint" for tainted atmosphere
>worlds in action.

TNE "World Tamer's Guide" has a table for atmospheric taint, but
I don't like it.  There are good chemical reasons for considering
a combination of "Low oxygen" and "high carbon dioxide" to be much
the most common atmospheric taint.

 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:03:32 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: TML  #1277 Housekeeping Maintenance:  Consumables

<snip>

I'm pretty much aware of life support, water, etc being recyclable.  Think I
even caught the discussion of this the last time or two it's come up (in
reference to costs IIRC).

> Food recycling requires a fair amount of space for plants and "animals"
> (could be things like fish or salamanders). 

It's precisely that which I think should have a high tech alternative.
Fauxflesh Vats are perfect way around this.   At least one vat for meat, then
have another vat that instead of meat, spits out a vegetable, etc.    Next up,
i'd think cloning.  We know at Traveller TL13 cloning of small organs is
viable in pretty quick periods.  The details would be the hum dinger.  Are
there any other possible high tech alternatives to actually carrying food
storage, etc?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:59:42 -0600
From: Dave Seagraves <daveseag@io.com>
Subject: RE: Missiles in G:T

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A97.432B6BE0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>since you generally know what angle missiles are going to be shot
>at from you can actually armor them fairly seriously

Only in G:T, where vectored-thrust ships appear able to accelerate in any
direction (does this entail physically tipping the T-plates or some magic that
lets thrust come out in arbitrary directions?). Otherwise, if thrust always
comes out the back, to evade or even just match targets acceleration you need
to turn a fair amount.

Bruce


   Do all GURPS Traveller spacecraft have vectored thrust installed?  If =
so, where is the reference?  I haven't seen this rule, but then again I =
haven't systematically read the entire book.  This question is important =
for aiming fixed-mount direct-fire weapons compared with the direction =
of acceleration.

Dave Seagraves
Seagraves Computers   Austin, TX   1 (512) 255-2760   daveseag@io.com
- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A97.432B6BE0
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A97.432B6BE0--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:11:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

Given that I could probably fit a computer, 2 9mm pistols _and_ a bomb
inside the average laptop case if I really wanted to, this has always
struck me as a rather futile way of checking things. 

However, since the average terrorist seems to be way below the level of
an average James Bond flick in technological competence I guess it would
work, more or less.

The original poster wasn't all that far off, since he's describing a
neutro_n_ scanner, yah gotta give them credit for trying. So Ethan was
right, it _was_ only _slight_ confusion.

Any mention of _neutrino_ scanners such as might be installed in
airports to detect weapons, bombs and implant-less individuals would
have to be derived from alien technology, and of _course_ that doesn't
exist.

fnord


dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> At 01:20 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >(in response to asking about why people have to turn on their
> >laptops at airport gate security checkpoints)
> >
> >> some other zach wrote:
> >> > does anyone know exactly what they're testing for?
> 
> Making sure that it really is a computer, and not a small bomb or carrying
> case for two 9mm pistols.
> 
> Doug

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:21:52 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: 2 Pistols?

...for those who learned pistol marksmanship from Miyamoto Musashi.  :)
(the author of "The Book of Five Rings"/"Go Rin No Sho"; known for wielding
two swords at once)

- --Clif
>
>Making sure that it really is a computer, and not a small bomb or carrying
>case for two 9mm pistols.
>
>Doug
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:38:31 -0500
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

> Given that I could probably fit a computer, 2 9mm 
> pistols _and_ a bomb inside the average laptop 
> case if I really wanted to, this has always struck 
> me as a rather futile way of checking things. 

Why do you say "AND" a bomb?  It's 2 pistols
"OR" a bomb.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:48:16 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 2 Pistols?

Either that or from Chow Yun Fat...(star of a number of John Woo flicks,
including 'The Replacement Killers') ;-) Two pistols simulataneously are
a sort of a Woo trademark, in all his films (the ones with guns in them
at least)

Clif wrote:
> 
> ...for those who learned pistol marksmanship from Miyamoto Musashi.  :)
> (the author of "The Book of Five Rings"/"Go Rin No Sho"; known for wielding
> two swords at once)
> 
> --Clif
> >
> >Making sure that it really is a computer, and not a small bomb or carrying
> >case for two 9mm pistols.
> >
> >Doug
> >
> >
> >

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 16:03:01 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Trade and Brokers

In my PBEM, a question recently came up concerning trade and
brokers, to which I sent the following post.  I'm reposting it here,
(with slight editing to make it clearer) thinking it might be of
some interest to the group.

                  ================================

This was the post that lead up to it...

[Shawn, our PC with merchant skills and a cargo to sell, is new to
Mark and Bernie, the NPC ship captain of the ship Shawn came in on,
are talking.  Bernie has offered to introduce Shawn to a couple of
local import/export merchants and they are walking into startown
from the back gate of the starport.]

>> "The companies I use most of the time are Bonner and Marrian
>> Brokerage and the Ollis Import/Export Company.  B & M are
>> reputable, solid, stable and conservative.  Ollis...well, Ollis
>> isn't." said Bernie dodging across the busy street.

>"Hmm." says Shawn.

>> "Don't get me wrong, Ollis is sound and a fair trader, but he's
>> the one to see for *speculative* cargo.  B & M are the people for
>> solid, safe trade."  Bernie continues as you walk into the warren
>> of warehouses and small offices outside the port gates.

>> "You get my meaning?" Bernie asks.

>"B & M are the folks to see for your standard cargos and Ollis is 
>the man for the more unusual stuff." replies Shawn.

"...and cargos that are more risky, but *potentially* more
profitable." Bernie nods.

                  ================================

Then the player of Shawn asks...

>OOC: One question, I intend to use my broker skill. We are going to
>see brokers. How the heck is that going to work?

...and my reply...

What makes you think the brokers you are going to see will be working
for you? <grin>

                   =============================
  
Relevant Skills

Trader -- The ability to evaluate how well a potential cargo would
sell at another location.  Part of this skill is experience with and
knowledge of other systems, and part of it is an innate feel for a
cargo's value and profitability.  The Trader skill helps you decide
how much you are willing to pay for something, and how much you
expect to sell it for, somewhere else.  Research and Perception are
associated with the Trader skill

Broker -- The ability to get the best price for a cargo as (or for)
either the buyer or seller.  Fast Talk, Liasion, Streetwise and
Bargaining are associated with the Broker skill.

A licensed broker acts as an agent for a buyer or seller to insure
that the exchange of properties is fairly done, and by the laws of
most governments must really do so.  OTOH, the actual buyer and
seller aren't under the same obligation to be fair, and the broker
*is* representing *their* client's view of the property's value.
So, let both buyer and seller beware!

If you *hire* a licensed broker to help arrange for the purchase or
sale of a cargo you should expect them to try to get you a "fair"
price.  The buyer or seller don't have to agree a what a fair price
is, and the broker they hire will be working to get their client
their price.  They just can't cheat to do it...legally.

                   =============================

You probably won't be hiring a licensed broker at B&M or the Ollis
Import/Export Company...although you might.  If you hire one of them
to sell your cargo, they will try to find a buyer for your cargo and
try to get you, the seller, a good price.

What you'll most likely do is offer to sell your cargo to one of
them..or to clients they represent.  In that case, they will try to
get the buyer, not you, a good price.

When it comes to buying a cargo, they are going to offer you cargos
that they own or that are owned by clients they represent.  They'll
be looking to make a profit from the transaction.  However, to stay
in business they want to encourage repeat customers so most might
not try to skin you off *too* badly.  OTOH, some will!  They'll
work under the philosophy that "if a lamb comes trading it is asking
to be skinned" and it's better for them to do it and get the lamb
out of the game.

If you don't have Broker skill, or have a low skill, you might want
to seek out a licensed broker to represent you in negotiations. Your
broker and the other side's broker will fight out a contest of
Broker skills.

If you represent yourself, you will in a contest of Broker skills
with the merchant you're dealing with. 

I prefer roleplaying to roll-playing, so your encounters with
brokers, merchants, and manufacturers should be played out...at least
a little.  The rolling will take place in the background, and (I'll
admit it) will be modified by how you play out the encounters.

Does that help?

"So, who do you want to talk to first?" asks Lira, "B&M or Ollis?"

                  ================================

The one thing I didn't add in my description of the Trade skill was
that a good trader has to be a good researcher, constantly on the
look out for information about the conditions in systems that they
might trade in.  Incidental tidbits of data about weather
conditions, labor unrest, government stability, technological levels
and changes, and even fads and fashions can be the difference
between a profitable and an unprofitable trade.

I hope some of you find the above useful.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:10:52 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: World Rotation Period?

A question has arisen regarding one of the formula in my World Builder
Deluxe program, namely Rotation Period. Should the calculation be measured
in Standard Days or Standard Hours?

Grand Survey and World Builder's Handbook seem to have differing opinions,
based on the same formula.

Opinions would be appreciated.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:10:36 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Background Music

Or burn 'em on a cd and sell the cd for a reasonable price (I buy blanks
here in San Jose, CA for $.99/ea).
Jesse



>Peter Trevor:
>
>Could you make some of these sounds available for download on the net?
>
>
>--Clif
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:30:20 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

"Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM> wrote:

>In my defense I would like to point out:
>
>1) I don't play AD&D anymore (well, not much, I crossed over to rolemaster 6
>years ago)
>
>2) I started with *D&D* (and still have the books)
>
>3) It was 'The Dragon' articles on CT that sparked my interest in Traveller
>to begin with, so naturally I still associate it with Traveller (even though
>I haven't bought an issue in 15 years).  Traveller Digest was mostly
>published while I was in the Navy - just getting the books was interesting.

;-)

Hmm. Please will you just sit in this large set of scales while we weigh
you against this duck?

Totally off record:
- ----------------------
My first game was CoC 2ed (Jul 83), my second and third Basic D&D (Blue and
white cover) and Traveller Starter Ed in dec 83....

And I did play AD&D 1 and 2 ed... but I then discovered RQ and
Elric!/Stormbringer.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:48:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Galactic 2.4 Patch #1 (come and get it)

For those of you who are using Galactic 2.4, I've just
placed an update patch on my homepage which you are
advised to install as a matter of caution. One
individual purports to have detected a virus in one
of the subprograms (xtra\rm.exe). Nobody else seems
to be able to detect this virus, so it's probably a
false alarm, however, since it's better to be safe
than sorry, I figured it would be wise to create a
new version of gal.exe which circumvents xtra\rm.exe
entirely. There's a readme file w/ the patch that
explains all this in greater detail. You can get it
at http://members.aol.com/jimvassila/progs.htm
(and then scroll down to gal24b.zip and download
it) or just point your web browser directly at
http://members.aol.com/jimvassila/gal24b.zip

Be sure to let me know if you have any trouble
with it... the file is only 69k, so it should
download fairly quick.  -Jim

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:55:04 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Jump Capsules?

At 12:45 PM 18/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Gee, I didn't know that "Starship Trooper" was a book written in 1959.  Wow!
>Guy was obviously ahead of his time on that idea.
>
>CT Striker?  Oh, Classic Traveller?
>
>Mannn, and I thought I had thought it up.  :)
>
>==Clif
>
        The opening "movie" of Quake 2 shows a company or battalion level
jump attack on an alien stronghold as the plot-starter for the game...
Nicely done, I thought.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1289
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Saturday, December 19 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1290



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Missiles in G:T
Re: Autocannon, HMGs and Gauss Guns in Striker
Re: Traveller-digest
Re: Slight COnfusion
Re: Slight COnfusion
Grand Survey
Traveller World Builder V2
Re: 2 Pistols?
Re: Slight COnfusion
Re: Slight COnfusion
Re: Jump Capsules? 
Re: Background Music 
TNE Stuff Still in (a) Store
Re: Claymore or less
Re: CLAY-MORE!
Re: Background Music 
Re: Colonising hellholes
Re: Background Music 
Re: World Rotation Period?
Re: Background Music 
Link
Re: Soundtrack
Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:45:33
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Missiles in G:T

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: Missiles in G:T
>
>Well, exactly what weapons are optimized against missiles depends on the sort
>of missiles; since you generally know what angle missiles are going to be shot
>at from you can actually armor them fairly seriously, particularly if you allow
>ablative armor (I've seen missile designs for a (non-traveller) TL 9 space
>setting in GURPS which had more than 2,000 DR from the frontal arc.  They were
>a couple of tons each.  They also carried X-ray detlasers with an effective
>range of some 8,000 miles, so point defense systems were actually significantly
>larger than the standard traveller lasers...).
>

Speaking as an old Klingon/Orion SFB player, the key to defending against a
massed missile attack is defense in depth.

You want to target big armoured missiles with small missiles, leaving the
smaller, more vulnerable missiles for your weapons to deal with.

The tactic of putting an escort or fighter wing out front works as well, so
it can get shots at the wave as it goes past (although this is to some
extent an artifact of the fact you cant retarget drones in SFB).

>Dedicated point defense weaponry against non-detlasers really only needs a
>range of a few hundred miles under normal circumstances; how about a
>lightweight fusion gun?  Much better armor penetration than the laser.
>
>Say, a 90 MJ TL 10 fusion gun with extreme range and RoF 3 (8400 lb, 168 cf,
>$650k) doing 6d*100 with Acc 26 and 1/2 of 1,100 mi, Max 3,300 mi.  Add full
>stabilization (840 lb, $84k, 16.8 cf) and a universal mount (4200 lb,
$8.4k, 84
>cf).  It uses 180 MJ per shot, a rechargeable energy bank with 180 MJ at
TL 10
>is 10 lb and $1k.  We'll give it 150 shots for 1,500 lb, $150k, 15 cf.  We
fill
>remaining space with a 18 megawatt fusion power slice (3,600 lb, 72 cf,
$180k)
>and access space (144 cf), which recharges a shot every 10 seconds.  Total
>18,540 lb (9.3 tons), $1.07 MCr, 1 space (499.8 cf).

I prefer to have a longer engagement time - I want the capability to keep
pouring fire at the inbounds.

Incidentally, Ditzie wants to know if you can get that rechargable battery
pack as a man-portable backpack.

Also, she is asking about the theoretical RoF of the standard GT 10 360 MJ
civilian laser, because it looks to take a 50 lb/$5000 battery pack to
power one shot, and there are a lot of people out there who feel a need to
have More Firepower. 

>From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
>Subject: Missiles in G:T
>
>The other issue that makes massed missile use difficult in G:T is use of
>nuclear missiles in a point defense role.
>**************
>for military ships, yes.  hard to factor it in though.

I really should have said 'to defend a point', not 'point defense'. The
idea is to meet the missile wave at some distance, then detonate, as
missiles tend not to mount big nuke dampers.

>
>I believe that a single large nuke will force low-armour missiles to
>disperse, which means fewer missiles for the point-defense missiles to deal
>with at one time.
>*************
>perhaps a bonuse +2 to +4 for dispersion? with a possible kill on all of
>them if you don't dispers?

Sounds fair. Make em choose between being vulnerable to counter-drone work,
or being vulnerable to point defense.

>From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
>Subject: Re: GT: combat example, *long.*
>
>The way to fix this is not to make point defence less effective but to
>introduce new types of missiles that are harder to shoot down but also do
>less damage. The two obvious choices are fragmentation - missiles that
>detonate a few hundred or thousand km out into a cloud of submunitions,
>only a few of which will hit a (presumably evading) target for moderate
>damage - and det-laser for military applications.
>**************
>working on it....

Dont forget combustion lasers - a small laser warhead with a 1000 km or so
range, that doesnt work by nuclear detonation.

You could also use a fusion gun.

>From: Dave Seagraves <daveseag@io.com>
>Subject: RE: Missiles in G:T
>
>   The counter to that is to make a proximity-fused "top attack" =
>missile, which purposely flies past the target, bypasses the most =
>heavily armored side (like the bow), and explodes against another side =
>that isn't armored as well.  Of course there's no kinetic damage and the =
>warhead does it all.  This could still come as a nasty surprise to a =
>task force commander who smugly hides behind his wall of thick armor.  I =
>still like the idea of ablative armor, though.

This is almost impossible to pull off with Newtonian movement, unless you
have a tail-mounted one-shot laser or similar.

You are also vulnerable to fire as you pass around the target.

>   I also like the "scatter-pack" missile full of submunitions -- =
>another nasty idea.  I remember a sci-fi story I read some time ago =
>which featured the use of one to damage one end of a dumbbell-shaped =
>alien spacecraft.  The computer game Master of Orion also features them.

*grin* most of Master of Orion's weapon systems were thinly disguised
borrowings from Star Fleet Battles.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:46:03
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Autocannon, HMGs and Gauss Guns in Striker

>From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Striker HMGs
>
>Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>> Dont use HMGs in Striker. Use 20mm autocannon, especially with
>> tailored burst sizes. Makes a nice mess of battledress, too.
>
>
>Don't forget VRF gauss guns,  LRF  gauss  guns,  etc.  Check  out
>"Missing  Links"  in  Challenge  64  for  MT  stats   (should  be
>convertable to Striker).
>

I havent forgotten them, it's just that a 20mm AC has an effective range of
fire control in Striker, while VRF gauss guns have somewhat shorter range.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:16:30 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest

can someone forward me a copy of Traveller-digest V1998 #1288, my copy was
lost when my email caused my system to crash this afternoon. thanks

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:57:26
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

At 04:38 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Given that I could probably fit a computer, 2 9mm 
>> pistols _and_ a bomb inside the average laptop 
>> case if I really wanted to, this has always struck 
>> me as a rather futile way of checking things. 
>
>Why do you say "AND" a bomb?  It's 2 pistols
>"OR" a bomb.

I really need a life.

Assuming you use a small pistol, like one of the compact Glocks, you could
conceivably fit two pistols and a small amount of explosives (enough to
breach the window) inside a largish laptop.  Given the size of the recent
models, I don't think that you'd be able to do more in each laptop than
smuggle in a disassembled gun or about .5kg of explosives in each.
- --

+--------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry   dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "Fixed fortifications are monuments  |
| to the  stupidity of man."           |
|               -Gen. George S. Patton |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:54:06
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

At 12:49 PM 12/18/98 PST, you wrote:

> Much better, IMHO that the minimum wage dolt asking you to turn on
>everything with an "on" button....

When I worked for Pinkerton at San Francisco International Airport, I made
far in excess of minimum wage, and processed close to 200 people an hour in
the early morning communter rush.  You'd be amazed what we find.

- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
|  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:03:08 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Grand Survey

If any kind soul with the DGP Grand Survey would contact me privately, I
would appreciate it.

Thomas Vickers

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 00:03:35 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Traveller World Builder V2

I am very happy to announce the release of World Builder Deluxe version 2.
The program has undergone a number of revisions and bug fixes since version
1 was released last week (I have had a lot of sleepless nights). I think you
will be impressed with the improvements that have been made. The most
significant being the ability to Load sector files.

To coincide with the release of WBD2 I am releasing Sector Generator V3.
This will generate full Sectors and allow you to save them in a format that
can be read by WBD2. This will be the last release of SG for some time as I
plan radical changes to the interface and display code.

Both programs can be downloaded from my website detailed below. (Why not
sign my Guestbook while you wait to download the files).

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:52:34 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 2 Pistols?

In a message dated 12/18/98 1:27:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< ...for those who learned pistol marksmanship from Miyamoto Musashi.  :)
 (the author of "The Book of Five Rings"/"Go Rin No Sho"; known for wielding
 two swords at once)
  >>

Why not; I was trained to shoot with either my dominant or weak hand. As for
shooting with both weapons at the same time it's awkward, but possible. My old
department was very conservative and plagued with politics that ensured that
we would old use .38 caliber (app. 9mm) revolvers. Six shots was considered
kind of tactically limiting, especially as we weren't allowed to use
speedloaders until '86. We were allowed to use our off duty revolvers (small 5
or 6 shot weapons equiv to a body or snub pistol in size) as a back up weapon
(as long as it wasn't visible to the public). Thus everybody quickly came to
the conclusion that the quickest reload was a second weapon... I carried my
second weapon so I could grab it with either hand (ie under my uniform jacket
in a shoulder holster). At the range I tried firing both weapons with both
hands. I found it difficult, unless I fired one weapon at a time (looked at
the target and fired with one weapon, and then did the same with the other
weapon in my other hand). I never shot either weapon as accurately as I would
firing one weapon with both hands.

Ob Traveller: After this long winded story; I would only allow characters who
are truely ambidextous to fire two hanguns simultaneously without penalty. I
would allow a character who has handgun skill to do this, but at a minus one
skill level. Thus handun 2 would roll to hit as handgun 1, and I wouldn't
allow a handgun 1 player to do this at all...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:00:35 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

In a message dated 12/18/98 4:03:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< At 04:38 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
 >> Given that I could probably fit a computer, 2 9mm 
 >> pistols _and_ a bomb inside the average laptop 
 >> case if I really wanted to, this has always struck 
 >> me as a rather futile way of checking things. 
 >
 >Why do you say "AND" a bomb?  It's 2 pistols
 >"OR" a bomb.
 
 I really need a life.
 
 Assuming you use a small pistol, like one of the compact Glocks, you could
 conceivably fit two pistols and a small amount of explosives (enough to
 breach the window) inside a largish laptop.  Given the size of the recent
 models, I don't think that you'd be able to do more in each laptop than
 smuggle in a disassembled gun or about .5kg of explosives in each.
 -- >>

When I went through the line; they made me turn ON the laptop to make sure
it's not a dummy....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:58:48 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

In a message dated 12/18/98 4:02:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< When I worked for Pinkerton at San Francisco International Airport, I made
 far in excess of minimum wage, and processed close to 200 people an hour in
 the early morning communter rush.  You'd be amazed what we find.
  >>

When I worked for immigration; the "dolts" at JFK and La Guardia were making
minimum wage and were rejects.... I guess different states, and different
agencies have different priorities...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:34:28 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Capsules? 

> Gee, I didn't know that "Starship Trooper" was a book written in 1959.  Wow!
> Guy was obviously ahead of his time on that idea.

Heinlein wrote a *LOT* of nifty things.  Most of his ideas were new at the 
time, like sublight generation ships, 'stargates' ('Tunnel In The Sky'), 
terraforming asteroids ('Farmer In The Sky').  I grew up in the 50's & 60's 
reading his stuff.  And I kinda miss the Admiral...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:50:40 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Background Music 

> >Could you make some of these sounds available for download on the net?
> >
> Or burn 'em on a cd and sell the cd for a reasonable price (I buy blanks
> here in San Jose, CA for $.99/ea).

If the sounds and songs are coyprighted, you'd be breaking the law.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:15:32 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: TNE Stuff Still in (a) Store

Just thought you might like to know:

The FLGS in Baton Rouge, Little Wars, still has some TNE items for sale,
including:

Smash and Grab:  1 copy
Striker II:  1 copy
FF&S:  2 copies
Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide:  1 copy
Path of Tears:  1 copy
Star Vikings: Personalities of the Reformation Coalition:  2 copies
TNE Player Forms:  1 copy
TNE Referee's Screen:  1 copy

Little Wars can be reached at:

Phone:  (225) 924-6304
Fax:    (225) 926-4556
Mail:   3036 College Drive
        Baton Rouge, LA  70808-3117

Thought you'd like to know (after all, I recently bought all the TNE
stuff I wanted...).


- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:50:52 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

>Years ago I joined a T2000 game and was informed that an NPC Demolitions
>expert was boobytrapping our equipment each time we stopped for what ever
>reason. Appalled I demanded that this practice stop because not a single PC
>(including myself) could disarm his booby traps and the NPC refused to show
>anyone how to disarm. I Predicted he would die soon (by enemy hands) the
>rest of the group disagreed and SURPRISE he died and we had to walk away
>from our convoy of equipment and fuel.


Bit of an obvious DM ploy there...

> From my training in the military on claymores, I remember that the
>claymore had a 10 meter kill radius at point of detonation and a cone of
>high impact high speed ball bearings spreading outward from the direction
>of placement (facing). Yes claymores could be posistioned outside of
>Vehicles provided that IMO sandbags are used. The armor on an APC (pre
>bradley) is aluminum (sp) a 50 cal round can penetrate this, so what will a
>pound (if that is what is in a claymore, I don't remember anymore) of C4 do
>to this armor

Basically, nothing. It's a shaped charge, explosions follow the path of
least resistance.
If you put a bundle of dynamite beside a wall and set it off, what would you
get?
A loud bang and some loose paintwork from the concussion.
If you put the same bundle beside the wall but with some other stuff to
point the blast in a particular direction (ie a shaped charge) then you
would get a hole, a loud bang, and loose paintwork.

The armour on an APC is designed to stop/slow bullets, a loud bang isn't
going to affect it at all.

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:55:10 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: CLAY-MORE!

Sir, you are correct. There is some debris that blasts out the back of a
claymore to about 3 metres, but the only thing likely to hurt you when you
fire off the claymore is the concussion (loud bang and accompanying
shockwave) which you have already mentioned.

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.


>I do not believe that is correct, sir.  I was in the United States Army and
>they trained us not only to reel the cord out all of the way but to also
>seek cover and yell "Claymore!" for any other friendly troops so as not to
>be harmed by the mine.  It may be shaped, but C4 packs a wallop
>concussion-wise on soft targets and I don't think there is any guarantee
>that ALL of the pellets/shrapnel inside will go in the desired direction.
>
>--Clif
>>
>>Claymores are a shaped charge.  On the front of it, it says 'Point Toward
>Enemy'.  Just follow the directions, and they won't hurt you.
>>
>>Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:00:51 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Background Music 

Whoops, forgot about that :)
Jesse



- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: Background Music


>> >Could you make some of these sounds available for download on the net?
>> >
>> Or burn 'em on a cd and sell the cd for a reasonable price (I buy blanks
>> here in San Jose, CA for $.99/ea).
>
>If the sounds and songs are coyprighted, you'd be breaking the law.
>
>Keven
>
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:02:56 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Colonising hellholes

>> Now, while I don't have my TNE or MT books with me, I'd be willing to bet
>> dollars to donuts that there is equivalent passages in both of those
>> editions.
>
>  At least with TNE you'd lose. Went through it with a fine tooth comb
>last night, and the basic book doesn't even have an equipment entry for
>low berths, let alone give any rules for it. FF&S1 gives vol/mass/price
>stats, but seems to lack any concrete operation rules also.
>
>  I'm not quite as familiar with MT, but a friend who has been through it
>about a million times in the past years assures me this lethality rate is
>not mentioned in it either.


What about page 219?

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:15:56 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Background Music 

> >> >Could you make some of these sounds available for download on the net?
> >> >
> >> Or burn 'em on a cd and sell the cd for a reasonable price (I buy blanks
> >> here in San Jose, CA for $.99/ea).
> >
> >If the sounds and songs are coyprighted, you'd be breaking the law.
> 
> Whoops, forgot about that :)

Now, if you burn a CD for *your own personal use*, you're still legal.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:20:57 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: Re: World Rotation Period?

Stuart;

Stuart Ferris wrote:

> A question has arisen regarding one of the formula in my World Builder
> Deluxe program, namely Rotation Period. Should the calculation be measured
> in Standard Days or Standard Hours?

Since hours my be individual to a given planet, so you might want to use
hours. A day is a day on any planet. For, the definition of a day is one
complete rotation of a planet. But, the duration of that rotation may differ
between planets.

>
> Grand Survey and World Builder's Handbook seem to have differing opinions,
> based on the same formula.

Could always talk to NASA on this one if you need a correct math formula.

> Opinions would be appreciated.
>
> Stuart Ferris
> stuart.ferris@virgin.net
> http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

Later,
- --
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only one even
remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people get what they
deserve."   --Zena Marley

DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not be the
opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter, it may not be
your opinion, but deal with it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:28:54 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Background Music 

Can personal use be defined as burning one for a friend?  Just kidding.

Cheers & Beers (I'm a couple in as I type),
Jesse




- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: Background Music


>> >> >Could you make some of these sounds available for download on the
net?
>> >> >
>> >> Or burn 'em on a cd and sell the cd for a reasonable price (I buy
blanks
>> >> here in San Jose, CA for $.99/ea).
>> >
>> >If the sounds and songs are coyprighted, you'd be breaking the law.
>>
>> Whoops, forgot about that :)
>
>Now, if you burn a CD for *your own personal use*, you're still legal.
>
>Keven
>
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:50:24 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Link

I saw somewhere, a listing of Traveller products for sale/trade on someone's
website. Anyone know of such a site?

TV

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 04:28:20 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Soundtrack

For orbit to Jump I like "Chase" from the soundtrack to Midnight Express (one
of those tracks nearly everyone has heard, but nobody knows...)

Moody and mysterious, the recent soundtrack to Riven (yes, the computer game)
is a must.

The entire soundtrack for 2001: A Space Odyssey. 'nuf said.

Mike Oldfield's "The Songs of Distant Earth."

Those "new age" environmental CDs which are recordings/compositions of natural
sound in particular places. Seashores and rainforests, for example.

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:32:02 +0100
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG)

I think you have some concepts wrong

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>Ok, the problem is this. Our digestive system *normally* breaks

> carbohydrates (sugars, starches, and a few other things) down into
> simple sugars such as glucose. The enzymes involved may or may not work
> on the wrong-handed sugars. I *think* they do.
>

As a biochemist, i know they don't, because enzymes have already a defined handedness (every amino acid is left handed...except some rare
microorganisms, although they only can produce one aminoacid or two from both handedness) that limits they're function to one handedness
only.

> Likewise, protiens are broken down into their component amino acids.
> And I am pretty sure that this will happen regardless of handedness.

No, again because proteins are broken down thanks to the action of other
proteins (proteinases) which are already handed (left handed), as
above with sugars.

> So you've got all these sugars and amino acids floating around in the
> digestive tract. First problem is keeping the wrong ones from getting
> into the blood-stream. And that *alone* is next to impossible.
>

It's not impossible, as sugars have to pass through the intestinal cell to get
the blood vessels behind, they can't pass between the cells
cause they've got tight junctions, which are hermetic.

> Next, you have the problem that changing the handedness requires
> breaking down the compound and rebuilding it.

Again, here in Earth it is not that way in any life being that have such
capability (some rare microorganisms, only)...

They have an enzyme capable of changing the handedness of the aminoacid (i've
not heard of such enzymes for sugars, but it may well be that they also exist)
without breaking it down and having to rebuild it. And it only requires the
action of one enzyme (rebuilding it is a long process with many enzymes
implied).

> The bacteria get some
> energy by (for example) breaking cellulose down into starches and
> sugars.

Not any human intestinal bacteria i know of is capable of breaking cellulose into sugars (but several of them in nature can), and, i'm
sure that no bacteria can break down cellulose into starch, as they're both different polymers with different functions in plants (and
natural bacteria can sure break them down, but it has no sense to break cellulose down and then build starch from the glucose you get...)

Both cellulose and starch are made of glucose blocks, so i agree that natural bacterias can break them down to get glucose.

> And, as I noted, the bacteria dealing with it wouldn't leave any
> *usable* waste.
>

Again i disagree, usually bacteria export those degradating enzymes outside, as they are not capable of importing those polymers inside
(too big), and those enzymes (included enzymes that change the handedness of aminoacids) function outside the microbial cell...so the
products of the chemical reaction catalized for them can be used by anyone around (our intestinal cells also), they leave the products
outside, and then the microorganism uptakes them.

> To use bacteria to process native foods, you'd have to do it
> *externally*, and then eat the bacteria.

Or you can eat the bacteria and then eat the product...but i agree with you, those bacteria would have not evolved to be into our
intestine and sure they won't survive...o worse, they may be to good inside our intestine and displace our flora and maybe be
pathogenic...

If i'd have to do it, i'll make those bacteria pre-process the food, and then (instead of eating them,  as it has proven they have
HORRIBLE taste...in some research programs to solve the hunger of the world twenty years ago, with eadible microorganism biomass) i would
eat the medium in which they have grown (because it sure has the ezymes acting on the products)...


- --
Guillem Plasencia
guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1290
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Saturday, December 19 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 1291



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Link
Re: Background Music
Merchant Ships in GT
Re: Background Music 
Re:  GT: You will be assimilated
Re: Soundtrack
Re: Background Music 
Re: Background Music 
Re: Background Music
Re: Background Music 
Re: Carbon dioxide taint
Re: Background Music 
Re: Background Music
Re: Background Music
Re: Background Music 
Re: Background Music
Re: Background Music 
Rotation Period
Re: Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables
Pocket Empires and Traveller Economics
Re: Slight COnfusion
Re: Further BITS information re: 101 Series in the US
Re: 2 Pistols?
MT Thrusters
Re: Jump Capsules?
Re: Claymore or less
Re: CLAY-MORE!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 11:09:11 +0000
From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
Subject: Re: Link

At 21:50 18/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I saw somewhere, a listing of Traveller products for sale/trade on someone's
>website.
>Anyone know of such a site?
>
>TV


Well you might want to check out www.crazyegors.com and look for the GDW CT
sale 



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:15:56 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Background Music

For going into jump:  the theme from Lost In Space.

(The series of course)

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 03:25:43 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Merchant Ships in GT

I'm not much of a fan of GURPS, but I must say I quite like Gurps:
Traveller. However, the streamlining rules are a bit odd and produce
equally unusual results.  If 40 tons of a 200 ton ship are lost from
streamlining, then it actually makes excellent sense for a Free Trader to
be unstreamlined.  Add in a 40 ton fuel skimming vessel, and you can even
use the fuel tank on the vessel as part of your jump fuel and get jump 2
(or at worse a 2nd jump 1).  

You can even design a TL 12 (Gurps TL) 50 ton Modular Cutter which can
carry a 20 ton fuel module and 10 tons of cargo.  If your unstreamlined
ship carrys cargo in 10 ton detachable pods off-loading is simple
(assuming you can't just dock and off-load at the High Port) and you keep
the same 69 ton cargo capacity and give yourself jump 2.  Given the extra
flexibility of having a vessel like a modular cutter along, and the extra
jump capacity I can't see why any merchant ships *would* be streamlined. 

Personally, I think the whole ship design system would make rather more
sense if streamlining reduced volume by 10% rather than 20%.  It's still
clearly a sacrifice, but not a *huge* one. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 06:55:40 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Background Music 

You'd think after the 20+ years people have been playing these games that
SOMEONE would have done up an album just for gaming background music.

John

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 06:59:58 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re:  GT: You will be assimilated

At 06:23:11, Dec 19, 1998, John Macek (macek@erols.com) wrote:

> Shhhh... I think I hear the sound of ultra-tech ground based sensors 
> giving my location to the 400 TL 15 SDBs that operate in this neck of the

> woods, they can be here is seconds, resistance is futile....
> 

LOL!

Hey, I just realized -- the surface area figures in GURPS Vehicles (2d Ed),
and thus GT, are only really accurate for one shape: a cube!

Images of cube-shaped 1M dton unstreamlined system defense monitors, and
the effect they would have on a certain type of historical buff...





"We are GURPS. You will be assimilated. We will add your distinctive
setting and background to our own. Resistance is futile."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:28:12 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Soundtrack

How about the following:-

Logos - Tangerine Dream

Babylon 5 Soundtrack - Chris Franke

The Sound of God Walking Across Water - Moby (from the Heat soundtrack)

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:29:19 +0000
From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
Subject: Re: Background Music 

At 06:55 19/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>You'd think after the 20+ years people have been playing these games that
>SOMEONE would have done up an album just for gaming background music.
>
>John
>

Well there were a few tracks done for Warhammer, and I noticed that there is
a Deadlands CD.  

Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:10:08 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Background Music 

John wrote:
> You'd think after the 20+ years people have been playing these
> games that SOMEONE would have done up an album just for gaming
> background music.


There have been one or two attempts.  I have a cassette  sold  at
my local game store about 10 years ago:

    Journeys 1 - Pathways, Passages & Beginnings
    by Janus
    copyright 1986 Safetower Ltd

Can't really recommend it though,  just  mentioned  it  here  for
completeness.





Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - Mr Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:03:50 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Background Music

Clif wrote:
> Could you make some of these sounds available for download on
> the net?


As the others have already pointed out, this would be  breach  of
copyright.  However, you may be able to find your own sources ...
here are some of mine:

BBC Sound Effects #3 (cassette)
BBC Sound Effects #5 (vinyl)
BBC Sound Effects #9 (vinyl)
BBC Sound Effects #18 - Holiday Sound Effects (vinyl)
BBC Sound Effects #19 - Dr Who Sound Effects (vinyl)
BBC Sound Effects #20 - Sporting Sounds(cassette)
BBC Sound Effects #21 - More Death And Horror (vinyl)
BBC Sound Effects #24 - Combat (vinyl)
BBC Sound Effects #26 - Sci-fi Sound Effects (cassette)
BBC Sound Effects #27 - Even More Death And Horror (cassette)
BBC Sound Effects #29 - Hi-tech FX (cassette)
BBC Essential Combat & Disaster (CD)
BBC Essential Sounds Of The City (CD)
BBC Essential Weather Sound Effects (CD)
BBC Music & Effects For Home Movies (vinyl)
BBC Out Of This World (vinyl)
BBC 30 Years At The Radiophonic Workshop (CD)
Dureco Sound Effects #4 (CD)
Hollywood Sound Effects - Vol 1 (cassette)
Hollywood Sound Effects - Vol 2 (cassette)
Hollywood Sound Effects - Vol 3 (cassette)
Living Sound Effects - Vol 1 (CD)
Living Sound Effects - Vol 2 (CD)
Living Sound Effects - Vol 3 (CD)
Major Records - Sound Effects: Military (CD)
Philips - Spectacular Sound Effects In Stereo (vinyl)
Scary Sound Effects (CD)
Sounds From - The Night Of Terror (cassette)
Spectacular Sound Effects - #1 (CD)
Spectacular Sound Effects - #2 (cassette)
Star Trek - Sound Effects From The Original TV Soundtrack (CD)
The Story Of Halloween Horror (cassette)
Tempo - Sonotheque Sound Library - Activities (cassette)
Tempo - Sonotheque Sound Library - Crowds (cassette)
Tempo - Sonotheque Sound Library - Transport (cassette)
Tempo - Anguish And Terror (CD)
Ultimate Sound Effects - Vol 5 (CD)

After xmas (I'll be away from email access)  I'll  catalogue  the
specific sounds I use.

Question to the list - if individual sound effects are  copyright
what  about  compositions  made  from  these  sounds?   Are  they
considered derivative works?  Its just that I have some  homemade
tracks (for example: flight log of a derilict ship that misjumped
... used with "Deadly Artifact" from Challenge 65) which might be
of interest.

Also, has anyone got a good "decompression" or "suit  leak"  hiss
sound effect?  I haven't found anything usable, and  attempts  to
make my own sound effect for this have not been successful.



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - Mr Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:12:05 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Background Music 

Quick question: With the demise of GDW who 'inherited' the rights
to the "Third World War" series games?



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - Mr Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:15:25 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Carbon dioxide taint

Thad Coons writes:

>TNE "World Tamer's Guide" has a table for atmospheric taint, but
>I don't like it.  There are good chemical reasons for considering
>a combination of "Low oxygen" and "high carbon dioxide" to be much
>the most common atmospheric taint.

It wouldn't be an atmospheric taint in Traveller terms. Tainted thin,
standard, and dense atmospheres per definition contain enough oxygen for
a normal human to breathe, since such tainted atmospheres can be
breathed with nothing more than a filter mask. A low-oxygen atmosphere
would be an exotic atmosphere (in Traveller terms that is).

And, yes, I know that "Behind the Claw" has a number of worlds where the
atmospheric taint is supposedly a low oxygen content. This is IMO a mistake.
YMMV. 
 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:30:45
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Background Music 

At 07:28 PM 12/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Can personal use be defined as burning one for a friend?  Just kidding.

Actually, as long as you don't charge for it, there is no limit on trading.
 This how Deadheads have operated for years.
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:29:17
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Background Music

At 09:15 AM 12/19/98 +1000, you wrote:
>For going into jump:  the theme from Lost In Space.

For a misjump, the closing theme from the movie.

First time I ever had to leave a theatre because the music was too loud,
and I'm a guy who used to stand in front of the speakers at Who concerts
and scream "turn it up!"
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
|  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:00:03
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Background Music

At 05:03 PM 12/19/98 -0000, you wrote:

>BBC Sound Effects #19 - Dr Who Sound Effects (vinyl)

Nopw that's what you want for the intiation of jump, the TARDIS
dematerializing...

I'm now picturing the 5th Doctor dealing with the Vargr..
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:11:57 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Background Music 

>Quick question: With the demise of GDW who 'inherited' the rights
>to the "Third World War" series games?
>
If you mean Twilight 2000, Tantalus owns it.
They have the rights to T2K, 2300 AD, and Dark Conspiracy (which was
recently licensed to Archangel for publication)

TV`

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:13:43 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Background Music

PLST said:

>Question to the list - if individual sound effects are  copyright
>what  about  compositions  made  from  these  sounds?   Are  they
>considered derivative works?  Its just that I have some  homemade
>tracks (for example: flight log of a derilict ship that misjumped
>... used with "Deadly Artifact" from Challenge 65) which might be
>of interest.


It depends entirely on the sound effects CD. If you read the liner notes, it
may tell you that you have the rights to use the stuff. A sound effects set
that I have tells you how to use this stuff in films, movies, and audio
presentations. In this case, the liner notes were clear that the purchase
price of the CD also covered licensing. I have used a couple of the sounds,
in modified form, on a song I did for an internationally released
compilation.



Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:29:04 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Background Music 

dberry said:

>Actually, as long as you don't charge for it, there is no limit on trading.
> This how Deadheads have operated for years.


Not entirely true. Deadheads have implicit permission from the band, which
the record company grudgingly puts up with.

Making a copy of an album "for a friend" is not the same thing, and if
caught you would be in trouble. You haven't made a profit, but technically
you've stolen profit from the distributor, the record company, and the
artist. That's just the sort of thing that the copyright laws protect
against.

Companies tend to look the other way in some situations (like homegrown
mix-tapes sold by DJs) because it's free advertising. The cost and trouble
that would go into pursuing these folks isn't really worth the effort,
especially since they're advertising for the bands.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:42:44 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Rotation Period

Stuart Ferris asked:

>A question has arisen regarding one of the formula in my World
>Builder Deluxe program, namely Rotation Period. Should the
>calculation be measured in Standard Days or Standard Hours?

>Grand Survey and World Builder's Handbook seem to have differing
>opinions, based on the same formula.

>Opinions would be appreciated.

I'd prefer to go with standard hours. For gaming purposes in on-
surface adventures, it's much easier to mentally break down a
19.2 hour or 56.1 hour day into smaller units and even fudge a
bit for simplicity, than it is to work with 0.8 or 2.34 earth
standard days.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:42:48 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>I'm pretty much aware of life support, water, etc being
>recyclable.  Think I even caught the discussion of this the last
>time or two it's come up (in reference to costs IIRC).

I saw part of a discussion of that a year or two ago, but skimmed
over the cost part of it...NOW I'm interested. T4 has life
support costs coming out comparable to fuel costs, and that seems
wrong. IMHO Life support is a misnomer and it should be
Housekeeping and maintenance, but it still seems a bit high.

>It's precisely that which I think should have a high tech
>alternative. Fauxflesh Vats are perfect way around this.   At
>least one vat for meat, then have another vat that instead of
>meat, spits out a vegetable, etc.    Next up, i'd think cloning. 
>We know at Traveller TL13 cloning of small organs is viable in
>pretty quick periods.  The details would be the hum dinger.  Are
>there any other possible high tech alternatives to actually
>carrying food storage, etc?

Once again FF&S2 suggests for endurance life support (food
recycling)
a) Low level plant life: yeasts, algae, etc. The "glop" that has
been suggested in previous discussions might go in this category.
b) vats and gardens. Your fauxflesh vats would go in this
category.
c) Small animals.
d) large animals.

All the equipment and technology for recycling food is likely to
require more space, be more expensive to install and maintain, be
much more finicky and give a poorer quality product than carrying
food, up to a certain point. The drawbacks of food recycling
outweigh the disadvantages for periods under a year or so. YMMV.

  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:42:51 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Pocket Empires and Traveller Economics

Pardon me if I'm resurrecting an old debate.  
I've been trying to generate some information on interstellar
trade and planetary economies using the various materials of T4.
I won't go so far as to call them broken, but I am a bit puzzled. 
PE gives a formula for generating the GWP of a world, but these
figures turn out to be too low on the one hand and too high on
the other.

On the one hand, turning GWP back into average per-capita income gives
Cr 1200-2000 per year.
Comparing these to T4's figures for food and housing costs and
salaries of ship's crew and PE's definition of a credit, they
seem about a third what I would expect.
On the other hand, if I translate the military Attack and Defense
factors into MCr, I get absurdly high naval sizes and rates of
production. I compared these with what Imperial Squadrons says a
given planet should be able to have, and it comes out to roughly
a tenth what PE gives. I must confess that the IS figures
intuitively feel *much* better.
So, does too low on the one hand and too high on the other work
out to about right? 
    

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:19:50 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

At 08:00 PM 12/18/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/18/98 4:03:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>dberry@hooked.net writes:
>
><< At 04:38 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >> Given that I could probably fit a computer, 2 9mm 
> >> pistols _and_ a bomb inside the average laptop 
> >> case if I really wanted to, this has always struck 
> >> me as a rather futile way of checking things. 
> >
> >Why do you say "AND" a bomb?  It's 2 pistols
> >"OR" a bomb.
> 
> I really need a life.
> 
> Assuming you use a small pistol, like one of the compact Glocks, you could
> conceivably fit two pistols and a small amount of explosives (enough to
> breach the window) inside a largish laptop.  Given the size of the recent
> models, I don't think that you'd be able to do more in each laptop than
> smuggle in a disassembled gun or about .5kg of explosives in each.
> -- >>
>
>When I went through the line; they made me turn ON the laptop to make sure
>it's not a dummy....

The laptops I have recently worked on (new ones, yes), there is enough room
to fit small amounts of explosives and still be fully operational. Take
some of the unnessesary stuff out (use dummy removable CD-Rom/floppies) and
get even more bang for the buck.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 15:32:12 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Further BITS information re: 101 Series in the US

On 12/11/98 at 06:57 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>It seems that since our announcement on Monday 7th December 1998 that
>SJG would be stocking BITS products for mail order, they have had
>rather a lot of advance orders. As they have not yet received the
>BITS shipment and thus do not have the appropriate catalog entries
>against which to log the orders, they cannot yet process these
>orders. I would therefore ask, on behalf of SJG, that buyers hold off
>on orders until January.

I'm a little behind the curve reading posts, so just a quick...Yea!!
I'll be ordering in January.

Also, and this is to Dom, Andy, Loren, and anyone with any influence
with SJG, can you encourage SJG to stock the orignial "The Long Way
Home" and Doug's "At Close Quarters" when it comes out, too?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:35:27 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: 2 Pistols?

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

> Two pistols simulataneously are
>a sort of a Woo trademark, in all his films (the ones with guns in them
>at least)

 Two pistols simulataneously, leaping sideways whilst firing....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:44:14 +1300
From: Blair Lynch-Blosse <blairlb@waikato.ac.nz>
Subject: MT Thrusters

Hi there all,

I've just a question regarding thruster units and anti-grav units in MT.
How many tons of thrust dose one unit produce? IIRC, FFS1 mentioned 40 tons
thrust per unit. Is this the same for an MT drive?

Thanks for the time?

B Lynch-Blosse

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:20:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Capsules?

The opening of Dark Forces has the same sort of thing, though I suspect the
Dark Forces are robots.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:32:49 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

I think it has been adequately demonstrated that you don't know what you are
talking about when it comes to Claymores...

A brick of C4 isn't like "so much dynamite."  Put C4 against a hard target,
shaped or not, and you're gonna do some damage.  Consider "detcord",
basically a string of C4 you can wrap around a tree or building support.

"And the walls came tumblin' down..."

- --Clif

>Basically, nothing. It's a shaped charge, explosions follow the path of
>least resistance.
>If you put a bundle of dynamite beside a wall and set it off, what would
you
>get?
>A loud bang and some loose paintwork from the concussion.
>If you put the same bundle beside the wall but with some other stuff to
>point the blast in a particular direction (ie a shaped charge) then you
>would get a hole, a loud bang, and loose paintwork.
>
>The armour on an APC is designed to stop/slow bullets, a loud bang isn't
>going to affect it at all.

The man mentioned a deus and a half.
>
>Cheers,
> Anson
>
>I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
>not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:34:32 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: CLAY-MORE!

Yeah, concussion has a way of ripping people's limbs off...  The head is
just a big limb.  Having a head is vital to a human's life.

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Anson Betts <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: CLAY-MORE!


>Sir, you are correct. There is some debris that blasts out the back of a
>claymore to about 3 metres, but the only thing likely to hurt you when you
>fire off the claymore is the concussion (loud bang and accompanying
>shockwave) which you have already mentioned.
>
>Cheers,
> Anson
>
>I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
>not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.
>
>
>>I do not believe that is correct, sir.  I was in the United States Army and
>>they trained us not only to reel the cord out all of the way but to also
>>seek cover and yell "Claymore!" for any other friendly troops so as not to
>>be harmed by the mine.  It may be shaped, but C4 packs a wallop
>>concussion-wise on soft targets and I don't think there is any guarantee
>>that ALL of the pellets/shrapnel inside will go in the desired direction.
>>
>>--Clif
>>>
>>>Claymores are a shaped charge.  On the front of it, it says 'Point Toward
>>Enemy'.  Just follow the directions, and they won't hurt you.
>>>
>>>Keven
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1291
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Sunday, December 20 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1292



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

T2000 and GDW
Re: Background Music 
Re: Background Music
Re: Background Music
Re: Background Music
Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG)
Re: GT: You will be assimilated
Re: Background Music
re: Carbon Dioxide taint
Re: Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables
Re: GT: You will be assimilated
Re: Background Music
Re: Carbon dioxide taint
In The Works - Software
Re: Background Music
Re: Background Music
Re: GT: You will be assimilated
Re: Background Music
Re: Slight COnfusion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:42:56 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: T2000 and GDW

A quicker question...  Is T2000 surviving in this post-cold war world?

- --Clif

Oh, another question.  Has anyone played Microprose's T2000 game?  I
downloaded it from their ftp, but it wouldn't install.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Peter L.S. Trevor <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, December 19, 1998 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Background Music


>Quick question: With the demise of GDW who 'inherited' the rights
>to the "Third World War" series games?
>
>
>
>Regards PLST
>
>"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
>- Mr Garrison, South Park
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:46:58 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Background Music 

Yeah, Debbie Gibson spearheaded a big effort against music piracy after her
first period of vital production ended.

I remember her making the point that you were stealing profits.

Then came Bill Gates.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, December 19, 1998 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: Background Music


>dberry said:
>
>>Actually, as long as you don't charge for it, there is no limit on
trading.
>> This how Deadheads have operated for years.
>
>
>Not entirely true. Deadheads have implicit permission from the band, which
>the record company grudgingly puts up with.
>
>Making a copy of an album "for a friend" is not the same thing, and if
>caught you would be in trouble. You haven't made a profit, but technically
>you've stolen profit from the distributor, the record company, and the
>artist. That's just the sort of thing that the copyright laws protect
>against.
>
>Companies tend to look the other way in some situations (like homegrown
>mix-tapes sold by DJs) because it's free advertising. The cost and trouble
>that would go into pursuing these folks isn't really worth the effort,
>especially since they're advertising for the bands.
>
>
>Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
>"What is your one purpose in life?" - Dolittle
>"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20
>     - John Carpenter's "Dark Star"
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:53:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Background Music

In mail you write:

> At 07:28 PM 12/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>Can personal use be defined as burning one for a friend?  Just kidding.
>
> Actually, as long as you don't charge for it, there is no limit on trading.
>  This how Deadheads have operated for years.

It may be how Deadheads have operated, but if a copyright owner decides
to go after you, the fact that you didn't charge is no defense. And
*minimum* statutory damages start at $100 a copy. 

Record companies generally have *no* tolerance for this sort of thing. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:56:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Background Music

In mail you write:

> At 09:15 AM 12/19/98 +1000, you wrote:
>>For going into jump:  the theme from Lost In Space.
>
> For a misjump, the closing theme from the movie.
>
> First time I ever had to leave a theatre because the music was too loud,
> and I'm a guy who used to stand in front of the speakers at Who concerts
> and scream "turn it up!"

For just after they've accepted an unwise contract (mercenary or otherwise):

The theme from the *movie* M*A*S*H (to get the words, you have to
record it off a video of the movie). For those not familiar with the
words, the tune is named after the chorus "Suicide is painless..."

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:00:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Background Music

In mail you write:

> As the others have already pointed out, this would be  breach  of
> copyright.  However, you may be able to find your own sources ...
> here are some of mine:
>
> BBC Sound Effects #3 (cassette)
> BBC Sound Effects #5 (vinyl)
> BBC Sound Effects #9 (vinyl)
> BBC Sound Effects #18 - Holiday Sound Effects (vinyl)
> BBC Sound Effects #19 - Dr Who Sound Effects (vinyl)
> BBC Sound Effects #20 - Sporting Sounds(cassette)
> BBC Sound Effects #21 - More Death And Horror (vinyl)
> BBC Sound Effects #24 - Combat (vinyl)
> BBC Sound Effects #26 - Sci-fi Sound Effects (cassette)

<snip>

I regret not buying a sound effects record when I had the chance 25
years back. It was a recording of the various klaxons, warning gongs
etc on the USS Enterprise (the nuclear carrier, not the starship).

I'm sure I could find *lots* of uses for things like the "Reactor Room
Emergency" track. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:25:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG)

In mail you write:

> I think you have some concepts wrong

<sigh> No doubt. It's been years since I last read my books on the
subject and they are all stored.

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>Ok, the problem is this. Our digestive system *normally* breaks
>
>> carbohydrates (sugars, starches, and a few other things) down into
>> simple sugars such as glucose. The enzymes involved may or may not work
>> on the wrong-handed sugars. I *think* they do.
>
> As a biochemist, i know they don't, because enzymes have already a defined 
> handedness (every amino acid is left handed...except some rare
> microorganisms, although they only can produce one aminoacid or two from 
> both handedness) that limits they're function to one handedness
> only.

Okay.

>> Likewise, protiens are broken down into their component amino acids.
>> And I am pretty sure that this will happen regardless of handedness.
>
> No, again because proteins are broken down thanks to the action of other 
> proteins (proteinases) which are already handed (left handed), as
> above with sugars.

I thought some of the protien breakdown was started by digestive acids?

>> So you've got all these sugars and amino acids floating around in the
>> digestive tract. First problem is keeping the wrong ones from getting
>> into the blood-stream. And that *alone* is next to impossible.
>
> It's not impossible, as sugars have to pass through the intestinal cell to 
> get the blood vessels behind, they can't pass between the cells
> cause they've got tight junctions, which are hermetic.

I thought the *simple* sugars (glucose, etc) did pass through. At least
pass through the cell walls both ways.

>> Next, you have the problem that changing the handedness requires
>> breaking down the compound and rebuilding it.
>
> Again, here in Earth it is not that way in any life being that have such 
> capability (some rare microorganisms, only)...
>
> They have an enzyme capable of changing the handedness of the aminoacid 
> (i've not heard of such enzymes for sugars, but it may well be
> that they also exist) without breaking it down and having to rebuild it. And 
> it only requires the action of one enzyme (rebuilding it is a
> long process with many enzymes implied).

Ok, I didn't know about *that*. I do know that at least one antibiotic
is based around a "wrong-handed" sugar. Which gives reason to suspect
that such are *not* the best thing to have floating around.

>> The bacteria get some
>> energy by (for example) breaking cellulose down into starches and
>> sugars.
>
> Not any human intestinal bacteria i know of is capable of breaking cellulose 
> into sugars (but several of them in nature can),

True. I knew that *human* intestinal flora can't. Cows and termites
have different flora. 

I've also heard that we don't *want* such flora as they tend to produce
*way* too much methane in the process. We'd die of what cattlemen call
"bloat". 

> and, i'm
> sure that no bacteria can break down cellulose into starch, as they're both 
> different polymers with different functions in plants (and
> natural bacteria can sure break them down, but it has no sense to break 
> cellulose down and then build starch from the glucose you get...)

Oops. Mea culpa. 

> Both cellulose and starch are made of glucose blocks, so i agree that 
> natural bacterias can break them down to get glucose.
>
>> And, as I noted, the bacteria dealing with it wouldn't leave any
>> *usable* waste.
>
> Again i disagree, usually bacteria export those degradating enzymes outside, 
> as they are not capable of importing those polymers inside
> (too big), and those enzymes (included enzymes that change the handedness of 
> aminoacids) function outside the microbial cell...so the
> products of the chemical reaction catalized for them can be used by anyone 
> around (our intestinal cells also), they leave the products
> outside, and then the microorganism uptakes them.

Doh! I should have realized that. And that *would* help.

>> To use bacteria to process native foods, you'd have to do it
>> *externally*, and then eat the bacteria.
>
> Or you can eat the bacteria and then eat the product...but i agree with you, 
> those bacteria would have not evolved to be into our
> intestine and sure they won't survive...o worse, they may be to good inside 
> our intestine and displace our flora and maybe be
> pathogenic...
>
> If i'd have to do it, i'll make those bacteria pre-process the food, and 
> then (instead of eating them,  as it has proven they have
> HORRIBLE taste...in some research programs to solve the hunger of the world 
> twenty years ago, with eadible microorganism biomass) i would
> eat the medium in which they have grown (because it sure has the ezymes 
> acting on the products)...

Actually, it occurs to me that we might deal with it the way we deal
with lactose intolerance. Mass produce the required enzymes and then
take *those* with the food, and also add the enzyme to commercially
prepared foods.

On the taste issue, I recall reading that the algae considered for life
support systems doesn't taste *horrible*, it just doesn't taste good.
But there are recipes for it. :-)

So it'd be a nice touch to have emergency life support gear that
uses algae. It provides good nutrition, and turns CO2 back into oxygen.
But after living off it for a while the crew will be *desperate* for
real food!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:12:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: GT: You will be assimilated

In mail you write:

> At 06:23:11, Dec 19, 1998, John Macek (macek@erols.com) wrote:
>
>> Shhhh... I think I hear the sound of ultra-tech ground based sensors 
>> giving my location to the 400 TL 15 SDBs that operate in this neck of the
>
>> woods, they can be here is seconds, resistance is futile....
 
> Hey, I just realized -- the surface area figures in GURPS Vehicles (2d Ed),
> and thus GT, are only really accurate for one shape: a cube!
>
> Images of cube-shaped 1M dton unstreamlined system defense monitors, and
> the effect they would have on a certain type of historical buff...

Has anyone *tried* to build the Enterprise under *any* version of the
Traveller rules?

For that matter, picture a colony that made it through the Long Night,
but had to rebuild their tech from scratch. The records available were
pretty much all from one *extensive* private library, but there was a
lot of random garbling. Thus, they don't realize that it was the
private library of a Star Trek fan who was also a real spacecraft
engineering expert.

In other words, they figure that the stuff that they can't make work
was either garbled, or covered in one of the unreadable files. They
think the Trek Universe is *real*, and when they get working ships,
they are going to go out to try to re-establish the Federation!

Heck, more devious GMs could even allow them to have made some
interesting tech advances based on not knowing that it's impossible.  

Warp drive and subspace radio wouldn't be appropriate. Transporters are
a major can of worms we probably don't want to open. But phasers,
antimatter power, photon torpedoes, and maybe even force fields/shields
are all possiblities.

Impulse drive is, of course, merely thruster plates.

I want to see the look on your player's faces when you describe the
ship, or when they get "hailed" by a Federation starship, complete with
the silly uniforms. 

> "We are GURPS. You will be assimilated. We will add your distinctive
> setting and background to our own. Resistance is futile."

Y'know, that's *not* all that far from the truth!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:46:35 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Background Music

[CHOMP]
>What are YOUR Soundtrack Music ideas and favorites to...

Well, I have found that anything hard and heavy goes well with my campaign.
From the top:
Testament
Manowar
Pantera
Suicidal Tendencies
the Vandals
etc...

Might be something to do with it being a bunch of 'Marines' but it's probly
cos I like em.

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:17:33 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Carbon Dioxide taint

Thad Coons wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Obtrav: An example of a possible "taint" for tainted atmosphere
>worlds in action.

TNE "World Tamer's Guide" has a table for atmospheric taint, but
I don't like it.  There are good chemical reasons for considering
a combination of "Low oxygen" and "high carbon dioxide" to be much
the most common atmospheric taint.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
May be the detail for what constitutes a "taint". A "tainted" atmosphere
is one that can be breathed with a filter mask, so it must have a
life-sustaining oxygen content.

A high-CO2 atmosphere under CT might more accurately be considered
and "exotic" atmosphere, if the usual way to breath it is with an
oxygen tank. (I do recall a thread on CO2 scrubbing "filter mask", though).

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:30:57 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Housekeeping Maintenance: Consumables

> Once again FF&S2 suggests for endurance life support (food
> recycling)
> a) Low level plant life: yeasts, algae, etc. The "glop" that has
> been suggested in previous discussions might go in this category.
> b) vats and gardens. Your fauxflesh vats would go in this
> category.
> c) Small animals.
> d) large animals.

I'm well aware of FFS2s rules.  And I've said numerous times in this very
thread that I don't consider them adequete for anything beyond TL10.  Maybe
late TL9.  
Fauxflesh vats are a whole order of magnitude better than the algae vats from
FFS2 (which are explicitly said to give out "gruel").   

W/ Fauxflesh Vats (or something similar that gives out vegetable, etc), there
is no need to store the food (refigerate, low berth, whatever).  A "biomass"
is sustained by the ships life support and is continually growing, possibly w/
a small amount of nutrient needed.  It's "harvested" when it's needed or it
grows too big for its vat, whichever comes first.

> All the equipment and technology for recycling food is likely to
> require more space, be more expensive to install and maintain, be
> much more finicky and give a poorer quality product than carrying
> food, up to a certain point. The drawbacks of food recycling
> outweigh the disadvantages for periods under a year or so. YMMV.

I don't think so.  Especially after thousands of years of high tech
spacetravel and given the canonical biotech capabilities of the Solomani, for
example.   You might be able to make a good argument for Fauxflesh being
Traveller TL 12+, but it shouldn't be all that finicky.   

Fauxflesh Vats are GURPS TL 9, which is a Traveller TL of 9-11.  I think it
should be no higher than Traveller TL 9.  That space is a one time shot and I
think these things are going to be small enough to be included in the costs
for extended life support from the original Fire, Fusion, and Steel (which
stated food was included).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:32:24 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: GT: You will be assimilated

Christopher B. Thrash wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Images of cube-shaped 1M dton unstreamlined system defense monitors, and the effect they would have on a certain type of historical buff...

"We are GURPS. You will be assimilated. We will add your distinctive
setting and background to our own. Resistance is futile."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

ROFL!!!

Now let me clean that up off my keyboard...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:08:55 +1300
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Background Music

>When we get the Great New Computer, one thing we are going to make sure of
>is a reciordable CD drive so we can make home mix custom CDs.  One of the
>firsts is going to be "From Surface to Jump-point"  The early canidates
are:
>
>"Space Oddity" -David Bowie
>"Standing on the Moon" -The Grateful Dead
>"Arriving UFO" -Yes
>
Throw in,
Suicidal Tendencies : Asleep at the wheel
Hexenhaus : A temple for the soul

plus others...

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:38:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Carbon dioxide taint

In mail you write:

> Thad Coons writes:
>
>>TNE "World Tamer's Guide" has a table for atmospheric taint, but
>>I don't like it.  There are good chemical reasons for considering
>>a combination of "Low oxygen" and "high carbon dioxide" to be much
>>the most common atmospheric taint.
>
> It wouldn't be an atmospheric taint in Traveller terms. Tainted thin,
> standard, and dense atmospheres per definition contain enough oxygen for
> a normal human to breathe, since such tainted atmospheres can be
> breathed with nothing more than a filter mask. A low-oxygen atmosphere
> would be an exotic atmosphere (in Traveller terms that is).
>
> And, yes, I know that "Behind the Claw" has a number of worlds where the
> atmospheric taint is supposedly a low oxygen content. This is IMO a mistake.
> YMMV. 

Filter plus a small compressor?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 00:18:47 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: In The Works - Software

        Hi, y'all...  I just started hacking together a Fleet Warfare
Administration program in VB, using the High Guard rules.  You input the USP
and number of each type of ship in the Intruder and Defender fleets, the
Fleet Tactics of the respective Admirals, and it fights it out for you.
        When it's done, it will produce a "turn-by-turn" synopsis of events,
such as "ship such-and-such fires >Weapon< at so-and-so, >Damage Results<".
It will perform vessel-by-vessel "morale" checks and handle disengagements, etc.
        Not sure when I'll have an alpha release ready.  I am still picking
at my "Empire Admin" program suite and writing an adventure for "Cargonaut
Press", so it probably will be end of January.  If anyone wants a copy of
the Alpha, let me know and I'll put you on my dist list...  I am largely
building it to help handle the war that will be happening in my TRAVELLER
game in the near-game-future.  I just can't be bothered to hack out a
Fleet-level engagement by myself, and I don't want to have a seperate TCS
campaign.  So, the FWA program seemed to be the best answer.

        Happy Holidays,
             --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 23:59:21 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Background Music

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> For just after they've accepted an unwise contract (mercenary or otherwise):
> 
> The theme from the *movie* M*A*S*H (to get the words, you have to
> record it off a video of the movie). For those not familiar with the
> words, the tune is named after the chorus "Suicide is painless..."
> 
> :-)
> 
Which version do you prefer (the opening credits, or the "Black Capsule"
version)?

Another song (as opposed to instrumental) used in a war movie, that can
help set a mood:  "We Gotta Get Out of This Place", by The Animals (used
in "Hamburger Hill").

Then again, for a more "optimistic" mood, you could use my Basic
Training platton's unofficial theme song:  "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt
Cheap", by AC/DC (works during negotiations for hiring a merc unit...).

> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 03:06:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Background Music

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> For just after they've accepted an unwise contract (mercenary or 
> otherwise):
>> 
>> The theme from the *movie* M*A*S*H (to get the words, you have to
>> record it off a video of the movie). For those not familiar with the
>> words, the tune is named after the chorus "Suicide is painless..."
>> 
>> :-)
>> 
> Which version do you prefer (the opening credits, or the "Black Capsule"
> version)?

I don't recall. What I taped was the opening credits. I don't have the
video anymore...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 06:07:31 PST
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GT: You will be assimilated

"Sir!  That odd vessel is trying to raise us on comm channel 14!  
They're from the Federation?  Never heard of it sir.  They want 
to...huh?  Assimilate us?

This is the New Home Confederation Cruiser Sledge.  NUTS!!!!!  Launch 
all SIM-29s.  Full power to forward batteries. <sounds of ordnance 
launching>  Assimilate THIS pal!!!"

;^)

Jim Clem, B.S.E.
Borg vs Tribbles
"Assimilation is Futile!!"
REALITY.SYS Corrupted:  Re-Boot Universe?  (Y/N/Q)
The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility. 
                                       Admiral Lord Fisher 
In God we trust, everyone else SQUAWK MODE IV!!!!!!!!!!!!


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:39:22 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Background Music

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:

> Also, has anyone got a good "decompression" or "suit  leak"  hiss
> sound effect?  I haven't found anything usable, and  attempts  to
> make my own sound effect for this have not been successful.
>

That's hard to tell, what exactly _does_ a suit leak sound like? The sound we
hear from, for instance, a punctured inner tube is from the air expanding on
the _outside_ of the tube.

Ordinarily, I'd tweak a recording of something like air escaping from an inner
tube. You could get real sound effect wacko and try to do something like seal
your mic _inside_ the inner tube and let the air leak out.  On second thought,
you could do this with a bicycle tube pretty easily...cut it, seal off both
ends with hose clamps, putting the mic in one end first. Pump it up, put a
hole in the end near the mic and record.

Try this with a fat tire tube, of course, pumped up to high pressure you might
get quite a long leak. Speed it up, slow it down, play with the pitch (IE:
Suck it into a computer somewhere along the line and play with the many, many
sound effects programs available...if you got a sound card with your PC one
probably came with that. On the Mac, try www.digidesign.com, they were selling
a 16 track 'digital audio workstation' program (Pro Tools 3.4) for the cost of
shipping and handling a while back; sort of a teaser for their serious tools
and upgrades. )

But then, I don't _know_ what it sounds like from the inside, only the
outside. For sound effects it may well be more 'realistic' being
unrealistic...just tape the air coming out of a valve held open.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:09:48 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
> When I went through the line; they made me turn ON the laptop to make sure
> it's not a dummy....

I can go out and buy a functional 486 system about the size of a credit card,
CPU, Video Printer, serial ports and all. I can get a 1" HDD...doesn't have to
hold much, just Windows, or better yet, DOS and a tiny image display program
that just _shows_ the windows start up screens.

Go get an old, bulky, heavy used laptop. I have one...it measures 11.5" x 8.5"
x 1.75" _under_ the keyboard. The _computer_ part can be powered by 4 or so AA
batteries for as long as it needs to be powered, and can probably be shoved
into quite a small space, perhaps even behind the screen. That leaves most of
170 cubic inches to hold nasties. Some of that's taken up by the case, true,
so I'll be generous and call it 150 cubic inches.

If I go to something like a compact .25 or .22 auto, I could probably get four
of them in there.

Want to be real nasty? Just pack all of the case with C4, and replace the
plastic back of the screen with steel, wedge it between your seat and the side
of the aircraft. That would make it act as a reasonable shaped charge, tamped
anyway, and do horrific damage when detonated.

You could probably even do it right, make it a true shaped charge. Sit on a
wing seat, see what you could do to the plane.

Of course, you go with it, so it's definitely a suicide bomber trick.

The computer only has to _appear_ to work...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1292
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Sunday, December 20 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1293



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT: You will be assimilated
Re: Background Music
Re: 2 Pistols?
Re: Claymore or less
Re: T2000 and GDW
RE: GT: You will be assimilated
Re: GT: You will be assimilated
Air leak sound (was: Background Music)
Re: MT Thrusters
Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint
BITS Website Update
[OT] Books/Other Media
Re: 2 Pistols?
RICE Papers Intro - Got It, Thanks
Freelance Traveller - Inquiry - RICE Papers
PING Pierre-Louis Constantin RE CBTM
[www][zine] Freelance Traveller Updated - 20 Dec 1998
[www][zine] Freelance Traveller Updated - 20 Dec 1998
Excel Trading Spreadsheet
Re: 2 Pistols?
Re: Carbon Dioxide taint
Re: Houskeeping Maintenance: Consumables
Re: Slight COnfusion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:17:40
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: GT: You will be assimilated

>Christopher B. Thrash wrote:

>"We are GURPS. You will be assimilated. We will add your distinctive
>setting and background to our own. Resistance is futile."

Damn!  Can I steal that for a .sig?

- --

+--------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net  |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
+--------------------------------------+
| "Oh, My God.. they killed STREPHON!  | 
|  You Bastards!!!!                    |
|                -Grand Admiral Kyle   |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:12:39
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Background Music

One great sound effect was for the TNE adventure "Vampire Fleets".  The
Vampire in the adventure had been damaged, and kept ehorting it's slave
crew to work, interupting itself with odd, schoizd commentary.

The Referee had programmed his text-to-speech gadget to endlessly repeat
the work "work" in slow, slurred voice.  Made for a spooky enviroment.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Pawn of the Droyne Conspiracy.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

UTUP: 0304 B-662D37B-5-5-2

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:01:16 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: 2 Pistols?

In a message dated 12/18/98 6:55:57 PM Central Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< 
 Ob Traveller: After this long winded story; I would only allow characters who
 are truely ambidextous to fire two hanguns simultaneously without penalty. I
 would allow a character who has handgun skill to do this, but at a minus one
 skill level. Thus handun 2 would roll to hit as handgun 1, and I wouldn't
 allow a handgun 1 player to do this at all...  >>

suggested rule

	A character with at least Pistol-2 can fire one pistol in each hand with a
handicap of -1 skill level for each pistol fired (subject to the maximum
number of hands available).

Which takes into account that some characters some day may have more than two
hands.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:21:06 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

His information may be second or third hand, but it's accurate enough for
gaming purposes.  An untamped detonation of the amount of C-4 in a Claymore
will not penetrate even a light armored vehicle.  Anyone riding on top would
be subject to concussion damage, however.  Det cord works because the force
is concentrated in the center of the loops, lay a bundle of it next to your
tree and you won't do anything but knock a few leaves off.

John


- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, December 19, 1998 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: Claymore or less


>I think it has been adequately demonstrated that you don't know what you
are
>talking about when it comes to Claymores...
>
>A brick of C4 isn't like "so much dynamite."  Put C4 against a hard target,
>shaped or not, and you're gonna do some damage.  Consider "detcord",
>basically a string of C4 you can wrap around a tree or building support.
>
>"And the walls came tumblin' down..."
>
>--Clif
>
>>Basically, nothing. It's a shaped charge, explosions follow the path of
>>least resistance.
>>If you put a bundle of dynamite beside a wall and set it off, what would
>you
>>get?
>>A loud bang and some loose paintwork from the concussion.
>>If you put the same bundle beside the wall but with some other stuff to
>>point the blast in a particular direction (ie a shaped charge) then you
>>would get a hole, a loud bang, and loose paintwork.
>>
>>The armour on an APC is designed to stop/slow bullets, a loud bang isn't
>>going to affect it at all.
>
>The man mentioned a deus and a half.
>>
>>Cheers,
>> Anson
>>
>>I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
>>not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:29:02 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: T2000 and GDW

Last I heard, T2000 was still a dead system.  And as for Microprose's CRPG
version, I played it  (or attempted to) and it stank.  They did their usual
butchery in order to get it out the door, and even after the patch half the
features had to be scrapped.  The combat system was even more non-lethal
than the paper version (even the puniest NPC could survive several direct
hits from anything less powerful than a 40mm AGL), and one of the missions
required a character that spoke a (randomly generated) obscure language.  If
you didn't have a character with that language, you had to dump the game and
start over from the beginning (it was the mission where you had to
interrogate EVERYONE in the village to find the traitor).

John

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:27:18 -0600
From: Dave Seagraves <daveseag@io.com>
Subject: RE: GT: You will be assimilated

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2C14.18D91300
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Hey, I just realized -- the surface area figures in GURPS Vehicles (2d =
Ed),
> and thus GT, are only really accurate for one shape: a cube!
>
> Images of cube-shaped 1M dton unstreamlined system defense monitors, =
and
> the effect they would have on a certain type of historical buff...

   I thought that using a cube formula was a bit odd, since it's not =
that hard to get a more accurate rectangular box, but it's an acceptable =
abstraction.  Most vehicles (e.g. automobiles) have about a 3:1 aspect =
ratio.  That makes the formula . . .

     (Surface Area) =3D ( Volume/3 )^( 1/3 )^2 * 14

   Cube-shaped system defense monitors?  That wimpodite fleet will be no =
match for my extremely-efficiently-armored /sphere/-shaped warships!  =
AND their carburetors all get 100 miles per gallon!  Beat that!  8^)

Dave Seagraves
Seagraves Computers   Austin, TX   1 (512) 255-2760   daveseag@io.com
"These puny Earthlings are no match for our superior weaponry!" -- the =
aliens from The Simpsons, all armed with slingshots and baseball bats.
 
- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2C14.18D91300
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2C14.18D91300--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:36:08 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: GT: You will be assimilated

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: GT: You will be assimilated
...
>private library of a Star Trek fan who was also a real spacecraft
>engineering expert.
>
>In other words, they figure that the stuff that they can't make work
>was either garbled, or covered in one of the unreadable files. They
>think the Trek Universe is *real*, and when they get working ships,
>they are going to go out to try to re-establish the Federation!
>
>Heck, more devious GMs could even allow them to have made some
>interesting tech advances based on not knowing that it's impossible.  

  There's a quite amusing Turtledove short based on this ("Knowing is
Half the Battle..."?) idea; after an apocalyptic WW III a pocket empire
in SoCal (IIRC) eventually evolves a Technology Recovery Corps, who are
thrilled to find the plans for a prototype starship amidst the rubble. By
this time much of the world has been amalgamated, and the resources are
poured into the project as necessary to "complete" it...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:56:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Air leak sound (was: Background Music)

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> 
> Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> 
> > Also, has anyone got a good "decompression" or "suit  leak"  hiss
> > sound effect?  I haven't found anything usable, and  attempts  to
> > make my own sound effect for this have not been successful.
> 
> That's hard to tell, what exactly _does_ a suit leak sound like? The sound we
> hear from, for instance, a punctured inner tube is from the air expanding on
> the _outside_ of the tube.
[snip]

One interesting possibility, especially for leaks aboard ship, is that a
clear musical tone might result -- anything from a high-pitched reedy
whistle for a small leak in a small compartment, to a thundering bass
organ note for a large gash in a huge compartment.  This would result from
turbulence around the hole setting up standing waves in the chamber --
basically the same way a pipe organ or flute works.  The pitch would rise
and the volume decrease as the compartment evacuated.  Spacers would dread
hearing such a rushing, rising tone.  It's similar enough to what a
teakettle does that spacers might jump if someone was boiling water in a
kettle without their being aware of it.  And 'teakettling' would be likely
spacer slang for the effect:  "I could hear the forward engineering bay
teakettling, so I went through the access tunnel instead..."

- -- 
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      "The hills were burning, and the wind was raging; and the
       clock struck midnight in the Garden of Allah."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 00:15:48 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: MT Thrusters

Reactionless Drives	Tech Level	Units			Power	Volume
	Weight	Price	Thrust
Standard Grav	9	1			0,1	0,02	0,04	0,002	1
Low Power H-Grav	10	1			0,008	0,020	0,012
	0,010	0,40
Thruster	11	1			28,000	5,400	14,000	0,280
	270,000
Low Power L-Grav	12	1			0,001	0,003	0,002
	0,03	0,1


Units=Minimum

Jens


On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:44:14 +1300, Blair Lynch-Blosse wrote:

>Hi there all,
>
>I've just a question regarding thruster units and anti-grav units in MT.
>How many tons of thrust dose one unit produce? IIRC, FFS1 mentioned 40 tons
>thrust per unit. Is this the same for an MT drive?
>
>Thanks for the time?
>
>B Lynch-Blosse
>
>

- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:42:31 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide Taint

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

>> TNE "World Tamer's Guide" has a table for atmospheric taint,
>> but I don't like it.  There are good chemical reasons for
>> considering a combination of "Low oxygen" and "high carbon
>> dioxide" to be much the most common atmospheric taint.

>It wouldn't be an atmospheric taint in Traveller terms. Tainted
>thin, standard, and dense atmospheres per definition contain
>enough oxygen for a normal human to breathe, since such tainted
>atmospheres can be breathed with nothing more than a filter
>mask. A low-oxygen atmosphere would be an exotic atmosphere (in
>Traveller terms that is).

>And, yes, I know that "Behind the Claw" has a number of worlds
>where the atmospheric taint is supposedly a low oxygen content.
>This is IMO a mistake. YMMV.

Low oxygen atmospheres would require a combination filter-
compressor to concentrate the oxygen in the atmosphere and reduce
the concentration of other gases. The problem is that the variety
of possible or even probable atmospheres cannot be well-reflected
in just one UWP digit. I'd prefer not to be bound too strictly by the rules
in this case.  

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 19:56:47 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS Website Update

BITS (British Isles Traveller Support) update.

We're proud to announce that the latest version of Andrew
Moffatt-Vallance's Pocket Empires Excel Spreadsheet is now available on the
archive page at BITS website. This software supports users of T4 Book 8 -
Pocket Empires, one of IG's releases written by CORE.

http://www.bits.org.uk/

This version has some new features, as described by Andrew below:

<<Pocket Empires Version 1.60
This is a spreadsheet to handle some of the calculations involved in running a
Pocket Empires campaign. The spreadsheet currently:

  -  Calculates the GDP for each world
  -  Calculates Government Income, Fixed Expenses and
     Available Budget for each world
  -  Calculates Popularity and Prestige for each
     individual world
  -  Features a worksheet for calculating the prestige
     of multiworld Empires
  -  Calculates the trade codes for each world
  -  Calculates the initial Resource, Infrastructure and
     Culture scores for each world
  -  Calculates the Resource demand for each world
  -  Calculates the Resource trade benefits for each
     world

The sheet is capable of handling up to 350 worlds (roughly the size of an
average Imperial Sector). To add more worlds just copy and paste the
appropriate lines in the GDP sheet and these will need to be edited manually
(all references to "Constants!" sheet).>>

_____

The latest member's newsletter was electronically distributed at the
weekend - if you have not received this yet and think you should have,
please contact us at:  bits@bits.org.uk

_____

Keep watching the Daily Illuminator at SJG for confirmation when the BITS
101 series will be available in the USA.

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


Dom (BITS webmaster)

____

Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises (c)1977 to
1998. All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:07:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [OT] Books/Other Media

Can anyone remember a Robert Silverberg (I think) book where the plot
resolves around millions of parallel universes and someone Travelling
between them. I read it many years ago and can't remember what it was
called.

Anyone spot the Culture reference in Bank's last Sci-Fi novel _Inversions_?

For an interesting twist on Vampire stories - and a cracking thriller -
check out _Ultraviolet_ when it reaches your area. It was commissioned by
the UK's Channel 4 and was excellent - not like the usual rubbish.

UK B5 fans - the final part of series 5 is being shown 28 Dec 98 onwards,
and repeated uncut in Jan 99, late on. http://www.channel4.com/ has details.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:11:16 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: 2 Pistols?

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> suggested rule
> 
>         A character with at least Pistol-2 can fire one pistol in each hand with a
> handicap of -1 skill level for each pistol fired (subject to the maximum
> number of hands available).
> 
> Which takes into account that some characters some day may have more than two
> hands.

Well, here's how I handle it:

For example, a character is firing two handguns (snap fire) at once. The
"to-hit" task becomes:

	To snap fire a projectile weapon.
	(Skill + Attribute/2) > Difficulty

Look familiar?
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:32:07 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: RICE Papers Intro - Got It, Thanks

<grumble>
You search and search, and it's not there.  You casually look for
something else, and guess what turns up...
</grumble>

Folks, thanks for your efforts in finding the RICE Paper intro.
It just turned up, on a hard disk that has never given me a
moment of trouble, in a folder that contains one of the early
Freelance Traveller designs.  Looks like I've got another archive
to mine for the current incarnation &sheepish-grin;...
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:32:05 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Freelance Traveller - Inquiry - RICE Papers

I need to know who wrote the following RICE Papers:

Persephone
Menorb

If an approximate date of authorship is known, I'd appreciate
that information, too.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
freetrav@hotmail.com
freetrav@my-dejanews.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:32:09 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: PING Pierre-Louis Constantin RE CBTM

If Pierre-Louis Constantin is still on the list, I'd appreciate
hearing from him.  I have the "sales brochure" version of the
Computer-by-the-Meter writeup.  I'd very much like to see a
"straight" writeup, along the lines of what appears in the
Freelance Traveller section, "In A Store Near You", so that I can
place it there - I think it's a nifty idea.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
freetrav@hotmail.com
freetrav@my-dejanews.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:38:57 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [www][zine] Freelance Traveller Updated - 20 Dec 1998

Freelance Traveller, the Fan-Supported Traveller Resource, has
been updated yet again! (Yes, I've had some time on the weekends
lately.)  This update brings in some more articles from the old
RICE Archives - we finally found a complete set, and were able to
recover the disk they were on.  There are more coming in the
future!
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:40:02 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [www][zine] Freelance Traveller Updated - 20 Dec 1998

(Damn it, we forgot the URL again!)

Freelance Traveller, the Fan-Supported Traveller Resource, has
been updated yet again! (Yes, I've had some time on the weekends
lately.)  This update brings in some more articles from the old
RICE Archives - we finally found a complete set, and were able to
recover the disk they were on.  There are more coming in the
future!

Freelance Traveller can be found at
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:47:48 -0000
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Excel Trading Spreadsheet

Hello all,

just a quick note to say that I have put my Excel trading
spreadsheets on my (very basic) homepage. I have not updated
tham in any way since last time, but they're there in case anyone
wants to check them out. And it's easier than mailing them to you.

Full and Lite versions. Full includes world data for all of imperium,
(using Jo Grant's GAL files), Lite contains data for Domain of Deneb only.
Excel 95 or 97 files, Require both Analysis Pack add-ins to work.
Support by e-mail at the address below.

Cheers, and happy holidays to you all.


Derrick

Derrick Jones
St Helens 
Lancashire UK

mailto:dojones@whitestar.u-net.com
http://www.whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:05:18 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 2 Pistols?

In a message dated 12/20/98 9:06:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
CardSharks@aol.com writes:

<< A character with at least Pistol-2 can fire one pistol in each hand with a
 handicap of -1 skill level for each pistol fired (subject to the maximum
 number of hands available).
 
 Which takes into account that some characters some day may have more than two
 hands.
  >>

I forgot about that... It's that damn Solomani humano-centrism....:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:05:42 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide taint

Walt Smith replied:

>>TNE "World Tamer's Guide" has a table for atmospheric taint,
>> but don't like it.  There are good chemical reasons for
>> considering a combination of "Low oxygen" and "high carbon
>> dioxide" to be much the most common atmospheric taint.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>May be the detail for what constitutes a "taint". A "tainted"
>atmosphere is one that can be breathed with a filter mask, so it
>must have a life-sustaining oxygen content.

>A high-CO2 atmosphere under CT might more accurately be
>considered an "exotic" atmosphere, if the usual way to breath it
>is with an oxygen tank. (I do recall a thread on CO2 scrubbing
> "filter mask", though).

   I studied real and theoretical planetary atmospheres when
creating my "World Building" and cosmic chemistry posts. It is no
accident that Mars and Venus in our own system, for instance,
have atmospheres high in CO2. On smallish size rocky worlds in
the habitable zone of stars, an atmosphere high in CO2 is likely
to be the rule rather than the exception. (Average world size in
traveller is 5; closer to Mars than Earth)
   If you have liquid water on the world, you can dissolve much
of the CO2 in the form of carbonate minerals. (Earth reportedly has
enough CO2 bound in limestone to make its atmosphere resemble
that of Venus). Nitrogen is the next candidate to dominate the
atmosphere. If you have photosynthesis as well, you can get free
oxygen.
   There is reason to expect CO2-water-Nitrogen-oxygen
environments, but to have atmospheres contain breathable
proportions of these everywhere when world sizes, hydrographic
percentages and atmospheric density vary all over the place
doesn't work for me.
      I can a) throw out what little I do understand of planetary
chemistry,  b) make most of my "Tainted" atmospheres class A
exotic, or c) bend the rule about tainted atmospheres requiring
only filter masks to be breathable out of shape. I take the last choice as
the least objectionable. If "filter masks" can scrub CO2, so much the
better.
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:07:46 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Houskeeping Maintenance: Consumables

Gary (TravelrTNE@aol.com) wrote:

>I'm well aware of FFS2s rules.  And I've said numerous times in
>this very thread that I don't consider them adequete for
>anything beyond TL10.  Maybe late TL9.   Fauxflesh vats are a
>whole order of magnitude better than the algae vats from FFS2
>(which are explicitly said to give out "gruel"). 

Gruel-yielding algae vats are Endurance Type V-a. At a minimum,
advanced fauxflesh vats would be at least the next class
better...Endurance Type V-b.

>> All the equipment and technology for recycling food is likely
>> to require more space, be more expensive to install and
>> maintain, be much more finicky and give a poorer quality
>> product than carrying food, up to a certain point. The
>> drawbacks of food recycling outweigh the disadvantages for
>> periods under a year or so. YMMV.

>I don't think so.  Especially after thousands of years of high
>tech spacetravel and given the canonical biotech capabilities of
>the Solomani, for example.   You might be able to make a good
>argument for Fauxflesh being Traveller TL 12+, but it shouldn't
>be all that finicky.   

>Fauxflesh Vats are GURPS TL 9, which is a Traveller TL of 9-11. 
>I think it should be no higher than Traveller TL 9.  That space
>is a one time shot and I think these things are going to be
>small enough to be included in the costs for extended life
>support from the original Fire, Fusion, and Steel (which
>stated food was included).

   Biological systems are complex enough to be subject to the Law
of Unintended Consequences:
   Given a sufficiently complex system, any intervention you
attempt will have at least three effects you did not intend and
at least one of those unpleasant, even if the intervention did
accomplish the intended purpose.
   This law tends to fill the annals of biological engineering
(geneering as a subfield) with examples of "marvelous advances"
that turned rapidly into expensive fiascos.  It also makes me a
bit skeptical about the prospects of such things as fauxflesh
vats, and to want to push them up the TL scale.
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:10:45 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

In a message dated 12/20/98 8:13:39 AM Pacific Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< 
 Of course, you go with it, so it's definitely a suicide bomber trick.
 
 The computer only has to _appear_ to work... >>

G-d; I hope osama bin laden isn't reading this thread....:-(

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1293
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Sunday, December 20 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1294



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [OT] Books/Other Media
Re: Freelance Traveller - Inquiry - RICE Papers
Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG)
Engineering skill in T5
Re: [OT] Books/Other Media
Re: Fire Support for Marines
Re: Engineering skill in T5
Pressure Suit Puncture
Re: Claymore or less
JB007 Formula for 2 Pistols?
Excel 95 Easter Egg
Third World War game (was: Background Music)
[CC-L] New CC2 Deckplan Available
Osama Bin Laden
Re: [CC-L] New CC2 Deckplan Available
Re: [CC-L] New CC2 Deckplan Available
Re: [CC-L] New CC2 Deckplan Available
AV vs DR
Need for Contra-Grav in Thruster Starships?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:27:57 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Books/Other Media

At 08:07 pm 12/20/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Can anyone remember a Robert Silverberg (I think) book where the plot
>resolves around millions of parallel universes and someone Travelling
>between them. I read it many years ago and can't remember what it was
>called.

	There was a Heinlein book, titled "The Number Of The Beast,"
centered around 'pan-theistic multiperson solipsism'--if anybody ever
thought up a universe, it existed, and the heroes were travelling
around through a variety of them.
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:30:40 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Freelance Traveller - Inquiry - RICE Papers

At 09:32 pm 12/20/98 GMT, you wrote:
>I need to know who wrote the following RICE Papers:
>
>Persephone
>Menorb
>
>If an approximate date of authorship is known, I'd appreciate
>that information, too.

	From the copies I have posted on my website, both were by Alvin
Plummer (plummera@hubble.sheridanc.on.ca), 1996
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:21:18 +0100
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG)

> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> snip
> > No, again because proteins are broken down thanks to the action of other
> > proteins (proteinases) which are already handed (left handed), as
> > above with sugars.
>
> I thought some of the protien breakdown was started by digestive acids?

You're absolutely right, acid hydrolisis also breaks proteins down.

>
>
> >> So you've got all these sugars and amino acids floating around in the
> >> digestive tract. First problem is keeping the wrong ones from getting
> >> into the blood-stream. And that *alone* is next to impossible.
> >
> > It's not impossible, as sugars have to pass through the intestinal cell to
> > get the blood vessels behind, they can't pass between the cells
> > cause they've got tight junctions, which are hermetic.
>
> I thought the *simple* sugars (glucose, etc) did pass through. At least
> pass through the cell walls both ways.

IIRC, there are (in our intestine cells) ways to avoid sugars going backward to the intestine :Simple sugars (monosaccharides) can pass through
cell membranes thanks to proteinic nature transporters, there is one which can tranport glucose and galactose into the cell thanks to energy
provided by ATP hydrolisis (wich is used to transport sodium ions outside, wich enter the cell through the same transporter as glucose and
galactose) ; there is also another transporter that uses facilitated difusion to intake sugars (no energy expended, but must exist inner lower
concentration of fructose, the sugar it transports, to function, and it easily saturates himself, so the other transporter, the energy expense
dependant becomes necessary when just have ate to uptake sugars).

Cells can express different transporters at differents sides of their membranes, so they make sure that sugar transport (which in fact, has
been energy expensive) can't go backwards to the intestine, but the sugars transporter that doesn't need energy can go both ways (but is as
easily saturated at one way as in the other, so sugar leaking isn't very important).

> I do know that at least one antibiotic
> is based around a "wrong-handed" sugar. Which gives reason to suspect
> that such are *not* the best thing to have floating around.
>

You're right, they're not the best thing to have contact with. Microorganisms are recognized by some of our immunity cells thanks to their cell
wall components, that include non usual left handed sugars (and no one wants to be always ill, and having immune responses due to the diet).

> I've also heard that we don't *want* such flora as they tend to produce
> *way* too much methane in the process. We'd die of what cattlemen call
> "bloat".
>

I didn't knew. Bloating isn't a nice way to die...i thought we didn't wanted
those flora due to the social not-well-seen side effect of having
to let those methane go out   :)

> Actually, it occurs to me that we might deal with it the way we deal
> with lactose intolerance. Mass produce the required enzymes and then
> take *those* with the food, and also add the enzyme to commercially
> prepared foods.
>

It's a good idea, sounds better to add the enzyme to comercially prepared foods, as the enzyme gets more time to act (not many enzymes survive
the acidic ph in the stomach) than eating some enzyme units at the same time than the food.

> On the taste issue, I recall reading that the algae considered for life
> support systems doesn't taste *horrible*, it just doesn't taste good.
> But there are recipes for it. :-)

IIRC my industrial microbiology prof. said algae didn't succeeded as an eadible product to solve the hunger of the world (being produced at
large scale) due to the technical problems of getting all those microorganisms being illuminated enough for the process being enough optimal to
use. Also it's hard to supply them with enough CO2 to make them really productive...

I didn't recall any words on their taste...Taste issue was referred to yeasts as a biomass source for human use.

> So it'd be a nice touch to have emergency life support gear that
> uses algae. It provides good nutrition, and turns CO2 back into oxygen.
> But after living off it for a while the crew will be *desperate* for
> real food!
>

It now comes to my mind a film i saw a long time ago, where some people where launched in a spaceshis with huge domes with plants inside
(trees...) as in Earth they were diseapearing (or something, i don't remembar), and then they received instructions to cut the domes off and
lost the trees and one of them went nuts and killed the others to prevent it...

May be he liked their taste :D


- --
Guillem Plasencia
guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:45:27 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Engineering skill in T5

Here's a question a player brought up last session. Should Engineering
skill in T5 be Cooperative?

The PCs are on a ship that requires two engineers. Now, if only one
engineer makes the task rolls, what good is the other engineer? More
generally, if the task is not cooperative, then all ships should require
at most one engineer, regardless of how many millions of tons they are.

Comments?
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:54:35 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: [OT] Books/Other Media

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>

> 
> For an interesting twist on Vampire stories - and a cracking thriller -
> check out _Ultraviolet_ when it reaches your area. It was commissioned by
> the UK's Channel 4 and was excellent - not like the usual rubbish.
> 

Total agreement.

Don't you hate Me Too posts?

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 19:45:40 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

On 12/17/98 at 11:04 PM,  dberry@hooked.net said:

>At 01:25 PM 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>At 10:42 17-12-98 -0700, Steve Charlton wrote:
>>>IMTU, the Imperial Navy fields assault transports for company-sized units
>>>(Marine Raider Transports), so the company might be getting orbital fire
>>>support from 

>>Sample ship design(s), please?

>Your wish is my excuse:

>Ken Stabler, Raider class Marine Assault  (FF&S v2)
>Designed by Douglas Berry

Oh my, Kenny "The Snake" Stabler! Am I glad I wasn't drinking anything when I saw this. ;->

I suppose it runs on beer and has an inflatable belly for soft landings, too!

Eris, 
    another good ol' boy from LA...that's Lower Alabama, you all! ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:53:14 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Engineering skill in T5

At 04:45 PM 20/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Here's a question a player brought up last session. Should Engineering
>skill in T5 be Cooperative?
>
>The PCs are on a ship that requires two engineers. Now, if only one
>engineer makes the task rolls, what good is the other engineer? More
>generally, if the task is not cooperative, then all ships should require
>at most one engineer, regardless of how many millions of tons they are.
>
>Comments?
>-- 
>Erwin Fritz

        Hi, Erwin!
        In "RealWorld" Canadian Navy operations, we've got three times as
many folk as you need to do a job.  That way one is one watch, one is
sleeping, and one is doing training or planned maintence.  I use this same
idea for Traveller....  I divide the number of engineers required by three,
and that is however many you actually need on watch.  Whoever is on watch
makes the roll.  If it is a less than one number, it means the engines are
sufficiently straight-forward that the Stoker only needs to be physically
there during special events, such as exiting and entering Jump or combat
operations.
        If you still have more than one engineer on, I just decide how
crucial the roll is and let the person with the right level of skill make
the roll...  so, a "do or die" roll will get made by the character with the
highest skill, to reflect they would be ones covering those systems, and a
less crutial roll gets made by a lesser-skilled engineer.
        Having too few engineers in the room when required adds one or two
points (I play CT) of negative DM to the roll.

        Happy Holidays!
        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:51:55 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Pressure Suit Puncture

One thing is that you wouldn't hear the sound on the outside of the suit,
due to the vacuum outside.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:57:25 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

>Det cord works because the force
>is concentrated in the center of the loops, lay a bundle of it next to your
>tree and you won't do anything but knock a few leaves off.
>
>John
>

But the point is that is just "sits" on the surface of the target, just like
the Claymore.  No one is "tamping" it down...

C4 has a speed of light burn...

As for armor, the man recited a story about a deus and a half, not an APC.
THAT is what *I* was talking about.  Obviously, you need armor piercing
weapons for armor.

- --Clif

>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Saturday, December 19, 1998 6:39 PM
>Subject: Re: Claymore or less
>
>
>>I think it has been adequately demonstrated that you don't know what you
>are
>>talking about when it comes to Claymores...
>>
>>A brick of C4 isn't like "so much dynamite."  Put C4 against a hard
target,
>>shaped or not, and you're gonna do some damage.  Consider "detcord",
>>basically a string of C4 you can wrap around a tree or building support.
>>
>>"And the walls came tumblin' down..."
>>
>>--Clif
>>
>>>Basically, nothing. It's a shaped charge, explosions follow the path of
>>>least resistance.
>>>If you put a bundle of dynamite beside a wall and set it off, what would
>>you
>>>get?
>>>A loud bang and some loose paintwork from the concussion.
>>>If you put the same bundle beside the wall but with some other stuff to
>>>point the blast in a particular direction (ie a shaped charge) then you
>>>would get a hole, a loud bang, and loose paintwork.
>>>
>>>The armour on an APC is designed to stop/slow bullets, a loud bang isn't
>>>going to affect it at all.
>>
>>The man mentioned a deus and a half.
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>> Anson
>>>
>>>I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
>>>not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:02:30 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: JB007 Formula for 2 Pistols?

Yeah, looks like a James Bond 007 formula.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: 2 Pistols?


>CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> suggested rule
>>
>>         A character with at least Pistol-2 can fire one pistol in each
hand with a
>> handicap of -1 skill level for each pistol fired (subject to the maximum
>> number of hands available).
>>
>> Which takes into account that some characters some day may have more than
two
>> hands.
>
>Well, here's how I handle it:
>
>For example, a character is firing two handguns (snap fire) at once. The
>"to-hit" task becomes:
>
> To snap fire a projectile weapon.
> (Skill + Attribute/2) > Difficulty
>
>Look familiar?
>--
>Erwin Fritz
>UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
>Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
>http://www.glja.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:06:47 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Excel 95 Easter Egg

Have you seen the Excel 95 Easter Egg?

If you do such and such, you can enter into a "Doom" room...

Search for the details on the Net.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Derrick Jones <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List (E-mail) <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 5:55 PM
Subject: Excel Trading Spreadsheet


>Hello all,
>
>just a quick note to say that I have put my Excel trading
>spreadsheets on my (very basic) homepage. I have not updated
>tham in any way since last time, but they're there in case anyone
>wants to check them out. And it's easier than mailing them to you.
>
>Full and Lite versions. Full includes world data for all of imperium,
>(using Jo Grant's GAL files), Lite contains data for Domain of Deneb only.
>Excel 95 or 97 files, Require both Analysis Pack add-ins to work.
>Support by e-mail at the address below.
>
>Cheers, and happy holidays to you all.
>
>
>Derrick
>
>Derrick Jones
>St Helens 
>Lancashire UK
>
>mailto:dojones@whitestar.u-net.com
>http://www.whitestar.u-net.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 02:02:44 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Third World War game (was: Background Music)

Thomas Vickers wrote:
> > Quick question: With the demise of GDW who 'inherited' the rights
> > to the "Third World War" series games?
> >
> If you mean Twilight 2000, Tantalus owns it.
> They have the rights to T2K, 2300 AD, and Dark Conspiracy (which was
> recently licensed to Archangel for publication)


No, actually I ment the 4 linked boardgames:
- - The Third World War (Battle for Germany)
- - Southern Front
- - Arctic Front (Battle for Norway)
- - Persian Gulf (Battle for the Middle East)



Regards PLST

"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- - Mr Garrison, South Park

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 00:05:28 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: [CC-L] New CC2 Deckplan Available

        My latest deckplan is up on my website.  148-ton TL10 "Serpent"
class Attack/Raider.
        "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/janes_cat.html"

        Let me know what you think...
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

		Dad, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-


***************************************************************************
Visit the CC2 authors: http://www.profantasy.com/
For sample maps/macros/symbols, message archives and related software:
http://vweb02.onramp.net/~mikew/dnd/cc-l-files/
To unsubscribe email majordomo@onramp.net with message body of
"unsubscribe cc-l" to signup for digest "subscribe cc-l-digest"
***************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:10:31 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Osama Bin Laden

The CIA trained his boys.  They've probably already thought of it and worse.

Don't worry.  The element of danger you perceive in the world is an illusion
meant to be the problem which we give our tax dollars to solve.

Big Brother has things under control.  Irag is just one big expensive
gunnery range for replenishing our military with combat veterans.  In
exchange for "practice", Saddam gets fat on palaces while his people starve
and take the hits, like good little Muslim peasants.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion


>In a message dated 12/20/98 8:13:39 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:
>
><<
> Of course, you go with it, so it's definitely a suicide bomber trick.
>
> The computer only has to _appear_ to work... >>
>
>G-d; I hope osama bin laden isn't reading this thread....:-(
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:28:07 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: [CC-L] New CC2 Deckplan Available

At 12:05 AM 23/11/98 -0400, you wrote:
>        My latest deckplan is up on my website.  148-ton TL10 "Serpent"
>class Attack/Raider.
>        "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/janes_cat.html"
>
>        Let me know what you think...

        Hi, folks!!  Talk about lag;  November 23rd?  Anyway, that URL is
wrong...  should have been
"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller/janes_cat.html".  Sorry about that!

        Happy Holidays!
        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:24:31 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: [CC-L] New CC2 Deckplan Available

I think it is "file not found", based on the URL you gave us...

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
To: cc-l@onramp.net <cc-l@onramp.net>; traveller@MPGN.COM
<traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 9:18 PM
Subject: [CC-L] New CC2 Deckplan Available


>        My latest deckplan is up on my website.  148-ton TL10 "Serpent"
>class Attack/Raider.
>        "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/janes_cat.html"
>
>        Let me know what you think...
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>
> Dad, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>
>***************************************************************************
>Visit the CC2 authors: http://www.profantasy.com/
>For sample maps/macros/symbols, message archives and related software:
>http://vweb02.onramp.net/~mikew/dnd/cc-l-files/
>To unsubscribe email majordomo@onramp.net with message body of
>"unsubscribe cc-l" to signup for digest "subscribe cc-l-digest"
>***************************************************************************
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:37:11 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: [CC-L] New CC2 Deckplan Available

At 09:24 PM 20/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I think it is "file not found", based on the URL you gave us...
>
>--Clif
>
        Yeah, as I said in the follow-up, wrong URL.  Correct is
"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller/janes_cat.html".  Sorry about that.

        Happy Hoildays!
        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 20:47:01 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: AV vs DR

On 12/16/98 at 10:43 PM,  "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> said:

>Yes, you are right: when they were reworked for TNE, they were really
>reworked, and given better armor (though still not _awesome_ armor).

>But in MT their AV was only 40 -- equivalent to 33 cm of hard steel,
>which is about AV 16 in TNE. I was just trying to point out how
>*poor* the armor on a Trepida was in MT by giving some numbers from
>other game systems. ;-)

>>>the equivalent of 33 cm of hard steel (that's DR 924 to you GURPsies out
>>>there, or about AV 16 to you TNEers)?

Am I missing something?  In FFS, 1cc of hard steel has an AV of 2.
So, 33 cm of hard steel armor would produce a 66 AV in TNE.  Still
awfully low, but not the riduculously low figure of 16AV

In GURPS, 1 inch of hard steel is DR 70.  Dividing 70 by 2.54
produces 27.56, rounding to 28 and multiplying by 33 gives you the
DR 924 figure from above.

However, if you include radical sloping on the armor (not
unreasonable for a tank) you get DR 1848, and because both FFS and
GURPS V2 use the same basic philosophies concerning armor values I
think it would be reasonable to double the armor value in TNE terms
to 132 AV.

BTW, has anyone converted the FFS armors into GV2 values?  If 1cm of
hard steel is 2 AV and DR 28, then we might say 1AV = DR14, thus...

                      TNE         GURPS
 Description         AV/cm   DR/cm   DR/inch
 ============================================
 Loose Dirt           0.04     0.6      1.5
 Stone/packed dirt    0.20     2.8      7.0
 Wood                 0.20     2.8      7.0
 Masonry              0.30     4.2     10.5
 Reinforced Concrete  0.40     5.6     14.0
 Iron                 1.50    21.0     52.5
 Soft Steel           1.70    23.8     59.5
 Hard Steel           2.00    28.0     70.0
 Light Alloy          1.70    23.8     59.5
 Fiberglass           0.25     3.5      8.8
 Titanium Alloy       3.00    42.0    105.0
 Light Composite      4.00    56.0    140.0  
 Composite Laminate   6.00    84.0    210.0
 Crystal Iron         8.00   112.0    280.0
 SuperDense          14.00   196.0    490.0
 Bonded SD           28.00   392.0    980.0
 Coherent SD         40.00   560.0   1400.0

How does that look?  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:48:41 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Need for Contra-Grav in Thruster Starships?

A question for the gearheads on the list, from an apprentice gearhead:

Does a landing-capable starship need a CG drive, if it has thrusters of
over 1G?  For example, do I need to install a 1G CG drive on a cruiser
with 4G of thruster acceleration?

All of the FF&S2 designs I've worked up have 1G of CG, without regard
for the thruster plate rating.  (Of course, this doesn't include my
non-streamlined designs.)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  Reply to wombat_at_premier_dot_net
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1294
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, December 21 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1295



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Gripes about the MT Trepida (was CT Ship Design (Alpine Class ...)
Re: Fire Support for Marines
Re: GT: You will be assimilated
Re: Fire Support for Marines
Re: Slight COnfusion
Re: Need for Contra-Grav in Thruster Starships?
Re: Engineering skill in T5
Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)
2 Pistols?
Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight  COnfusion)
Re: Fire Support for Marines
hints for megatraveller computer games
Re:Need for contragrav in Thruster Starships
2 Engineers
Formulae
Re: Claymore or less
Re: Claymore or less
Re : Digesting Aliens
Re: Background Music
Re: Background Music
Re: Background Music
Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG)
Re: [OT] Books/Other Media
Re: Pressure Suit Puncture
re: Engineering skill in T5

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 21:06:34 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Gripes about the MT Trepida (was CT Ship Design (Alpine Class ...)

On 12/16/98 at 11:18 PM,  "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> said:


>>But in MT their AV was only 40 -- equivalent to 33 cm of hard steel, which
>>is about AV 16 in TNE. I was just trying to point out how *poor* the armor
>>on a Trepida was in MT by giving some numbers from other game systems. ;-)


>Hey, waitaminute. 33 cm of hard steel is AV 66 in TNE.

>Oh well, if at first you don't succeed.

>Still, an AV of 66 for a high-tech tank ... well ... sucks.

Well, remember it's a flying tank. ;->

I have GURPS V2 at hand, so let me look...

A 120mm tank cannon is rated at 6d6x30(3), giving an expected value
of 630 (1890 for armor penetration).  A heavy N-PAW is rated at
6dx100 giving an expected value of 2100.  

Both of them compare well with a sloped DR 1848, which our AV 66
tank would have. So, in GURPSian terms it might not be so bad.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 19:09:43
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

At 07:45 PM 12/20/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On 12/17/98 at 11:04 PM,  dberry@hooked.net said:

>Oh my, Kenny "The Snake" Stabler! Am I glad I wasn't drinking anything when I saw this. ;->
>
>I suppose it runs on beer and has an inflatable belly for soft landings, too!

Nah, but it blames any errors on the other ships in the fleet.

>Eris, 
>    another good ol' boy from LA...that's Lower Alabama, you all! ;->

Glad you specified that.  There never were any LA Raiders, that was a
period of mass delusion.

Go Niners.

- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 19:20:32 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT: You will be assimilated

Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:32:24 -0500, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>

>"We are GURPS. You will be assimilated. We will add your distinctive
>setting and background to our own. Resistance is futile."

Ironically, there was a post on the GURPS mailing list about
Traveller taking over the GURPS Traffic :-).

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 21:44:51 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

On 12/20/98 at 07:09 PM,  dberry@hooked.net said:

>At 07:45 PM 12/20/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>On 12/17/98 at 11:04 PM,  dberry@hooked.net said:

>>Oh my, Kenny "The Snake" Stabler! Am I glad I wasn't drinking anything
>when I saw this. ;->
>>

>>I suppose it runs on beer and has an inflatable belly for soft
>>landings, too!

>Nah, but it blames any errors on the other ships in the fleet.

Hee!  Maybe I should design the Beau Jackson Fast Attack Cruiser, or
the Hendricks System Defense Boat?  ;->

>>Eris, 
>>    another good ol' boy from LA...that's Lower Alabama, you all! ;->

>Glad you specified that.  There never were any LA Raiders, that was a
>period of mass delusion.

No, Los Angeles just didn't fit the Raider's motorcycle gang
persona.

>Go Niners.

I'm just about in the center of a circle with the Saints, the
Falcons, the Oilers, the Jags and Bucs on the rim, but I root for
the Packers and their Kiln Kannon.  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:48:55 -0800
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

LAX actually has a chemical sniffer that they use on laptops.
Ways around that are left as an exercise to the reader.

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>> When I went through the line; they made me turn ON the laptop to make sure
>> it's not a dummy....
>I can go out and buy a functional 486 system about the size of a credit card,
>CPU, Video Printer, serial ports and all. I can get a 1" HDD...doesn't have to
>hold much, just Windows, or better yet, DOS and a tiny image display program
>that just _shows_ the windows start up screens.
>Go get an old, bulky, heavy used laptop. I have one...it measures 11.5" x 8.5"
>x 1.75" _under_ the keyboard. The _computer_ part can be powered by 4 or so AA
>batteries for as long as it needs to be powered, and can probably be shoved
>into quite a small space, perhaps even behind the screen. That leaves most of
>170 cubic inches to hold nasties. Some of that's taken up by the case, true,
>so I'll be generous and call it 150 cubic inches.
>If I go to something like a compact .25 or .22 auto, I could probably get four
>of them in there.
>Want to be real nasty? Just pack all of the case with C4, and replace the
>plastic back of the screen with steel, wedge it between your seat and the side
>of the aircraft. That would make it act as a reasonable shaped charge, tamped
>anyway, and do horrific damage when detonated.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
The reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:44:40 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Need for Contra-Grav in Thruster Starships?

At 08:48 pm 12/20/98 -0600, you wrote:
>A question for the gearheads on the list, from an apprentice
gearhead:
>
>Does a landing-capable starship need a CG drive, if it has thrusters of
>over 1G?  For example, do I need to install a 1G CG drive on a cruiser
>with 4G of thruster acceleration?

	Depends on how the thrusters are oriented, compared to how you want
to land. See the long flamefest I mean discussion about the
orientation of drive relative to the decks. The Kinunir has (IIRC)
4G, oriented parallel to the decks. If you want to land belly down,
you either (a) need a LONG runway, or (b) have CG so you can float
down.
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:46:41 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Engineering skill in T5

At 04:45 pm 12/20/98 -0700, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>Here's a question a player brought up last session. Should
Engineering
>skill in T5 be Cooperative?
>
>The PCs are on a ship that requires two engineers. Now, if only one
>engineer makes the task rolls, what good is the other engineer? More
>generally, if the task is not cooperative, then all ships should
require
>at most one engineer, regardless of how many millions of tons they
are.

	1) Not all tasks lend themselvse to multiple people working on them.
5 women still can't give birth to one infant any faster than one
woman.
	2) On the other hand, any task that *does* lend itself to being
worked on by more than one person can usually be decomposed into a
series of individual tasks.

	Keeping any complex equipment running often requires many people,
each doing a different thing. Beyond that, you might also consider
shift needs. One person can't be up and running 24 hours a day. Any
shift lasting longer than 6-8 hours should start requiring some kind
of endurance or concentration rolls.
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:52:29 -0600
From: "David Reed" <de.reed@xolutions.com>
Subject: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)

> G-d; I hope osama bin laden isn't reading this thread....:-(

probably not, but i'll be sure to pass on the advice.  there's a lot of
payback on the drawing board for the current cruise missile slaughter of
innocents... and afghanistan and the sudan haven't even been avenged, yet.


obtrav: i'm coming to this thread late (having just rejoined the list), but
i'm fixin' to embroil my players in a terrorist/guerilla war of a similar
nature, and i'm curious how other groups of players have dealt with the
moral dilemmas inherent in such a conflict.  who are your players more
likely to identify with: the tyrants, the innocent victims, the resistance,
or the biggest pile of credits?

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 | Dave Reed | de.reed@xolutions.com |

"Fear is that little death that brings
 total obliteration..."
 -Bene Gesserit 'Litany Against Fear'

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:53:15 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: 2 Pistols?

Clif wrote:
> 
> Yeah, looks like a James Bond 007 formula.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
> >Well, here's how I handle it:
> >
> >For example, a character is firing two handguns (snap fire) at once. The
> >"to-hit" task becomes:
> >
> > To snap fire a projectile weapon.
> > (Skill + Attribute/2) > Difficulty
> >
> >Look familiar?

Bzzzzt! Nope. My source is far closer to home (Traveller, that is). Next
guess?

:-)

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:04:36 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight  COnfusion)

> obtrav: i'm coming to this thread late (having just rejoined the list), but
> i'm fixin' to embroil my players in a terrorist/guerilla war of a similar
> nature, and i'm curious how other groups of players have dealt with the
> moral dilemmas inherent in such a conflict.  who are your players more
> likely to identify with: the tyrants, the innocent victims, the resistance,
> or the biggest pile of credits?

Good question.

I'll let you know as soon as my players run into that situation, which should
be relatively soon...  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:40:31 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

Isn't that spelled "y'all"?  Sorry, I'm in California but I work with one of
our offices in Texas alot.
:)

Jesse



>Eris,
>    another good ol' boy from LA...that's Lower Alabama, you all! ;->
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 23:46:11 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: hints for megatraveller computer games

Help! Looking for hints or walkthroughs for the MegaTraveller games; 
note that I know how to make $$$ - I want plot hints, or a complete 
walkthrough, of the two games.


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:18:42
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re:Need for contragrav in Thruster Starships

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Need for Contra-Grav in Thruster Starships?
>
>A question for the gearheads on the list, from an apprentice gearhead:
>
>Does a landing-capable starship need a CG drive, if it has thrusters of
>over 1G?  For example, do I need to install a 1G CG drive on a cruiser
>with 4G of thruster acceleration?

No.

The advantage of contragrav is you get more kilonewtons per everything,
with the limitation of you can only use it in a gravity well.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 02:56:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: 2 Engineers

Wouldn't you need 2 engineers to work in shifts?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 02:57:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Formulae

Oh, is that 2300AD?

I remember personally altering something about 2300 AD so that it was more
like the Bond system...

...maybe I am remembering that the two were similar.

That really DOES look like the Bond formulae, if you've ever played it.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 11:56 PM
Subject: 2 Pistols?


>Clif wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, looks like a James Bond 007 formula.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
>> >Well, here's how I handle it:
>> >
>> >For example, a character is firing two handguns (snap fire) at once. The
>> >"to-hit" task becomes:
>> >
>> > To snap fire a projectile weapon.
>> > (Skill + Attribute/2) > Difficulty
>> >
>> >Look familiar?
>
>Bzzzzt! Nope. My source is far closer to home (Traveller, that is). Next
>guess?
>
>:-)
>
>--
>Erwin Fritz
>UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
>Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
>http://www.glja.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:52:34 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

>>Det cord works because the force
>>is concentrated in the center of the loops, lay a bundle of it next to your
>>tree and you won't do anything but knock a few leaves off.
>>
>>John
>
>But the point is that is just "sits" on the surface of the target, just like
>the Claymore.  No one is "tamping" it down...
>
>C4 has a speed of light burn...
>
>As for armor, the man recited a story about a deus and a half, not an APC.
>THAT is what *I* was talking about.  Obviously, you need armor piercing
>weapons for armor.
>
>--Clif

I think that wrapping the detcord around the tree converts it into a shaped
charge in that the tree can't absorb the blast from all sides.
(WWII formula was once around per inch of tree).

My dad (Royal Engineers, WWII, N. Africa & Italy) recounted how they
wanted to put a bridge in but the Germans had left a tank in the way.
It was upside down and boobytrapped with its gun barrel blocking the road.
They wrapped a lot of plastic explosive around the barrel, retired to a
safe distance...and when they came back it was still there.
Finally they used a couple of tow ropes and a tank to pull it to one side.
None of the boobytraps went off.

A properly designed shaped charge would have probably severed the barrel
but they didn't have anyone who knew about such things.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:26:39 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: Claymore or less


>>Det cord works because the force
>>is concentrated in the center of the loops, lay a bundle of it next to your
>>tree and you won't do anything but knock a few leaves off.
>>
>>John
>>
>
>But the point is that is just "sits" on the surface of the target, just like
>the Claymore.  No one is "tamping" it down...
>
>C4 has a speed of light burn...
>
>As for armor, the man recited a story about a deus and a half, not an APC.
>THAT is what *I* was talking about.  Obviously, you need armor piercing
>weapons for armor.
>


OK, I missed that part.  the only Real World example of this sort of thing
I've heard of involved hanging Claymores on the side of M113s in Vietnam, as
a short-range ambush buster.

John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:50:39 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Digesting Aliens

The physiology of intestinal absorption of carbohydrates as described by
Guillem Plascencia is largely correct.

Carbohydrate polymers : e.g. starch, cellulose (the latter with
appropriate gut flora) undergo hydrolysis to shorter units (enzymes are
oligo- and disaccharidases) ; these fragments are mostly broken down to
monosaccharides : glucose, galactose, fructose and absorbed.

Absorption of the monosaccharides is predominantly by ATP driven sodium
co-transporters (so one sodium ion is absorbed across the intestinal
lumen with one molecule of glucose, say ; a similar co-transport system
handles amino acids). Diffusion plays a very minor role.

These transporters have different kinetic characteristics. The glucose
transporter has the best Tm (maximum transport coefficient) then the
galactose and the fructose transporter in that order.

Aside : In paediatric practice, the most common cause of diarrhoea in
affluent areas is often fructose overload induced (too much fruit
juice).

Carbohydrates are made up of the D (dextro, 'right handed' isomers). The
transporters referred to above *can* take the L isomers, but at greatly
reduced affinity.

The stumbling block is at the polymer hydrolysis level. Chains of L
isomer carbohydrates would be virtually impossible for 'Terran normal'
enzymes to break down.
Problems would stem from the activation of mucosa associated lymphoid
tissue ; these 'left handed' carbohydrate chains would definitely be
antigenic.

This is assuming conventional linkages between monosaccharides.
The most important monosaccharide units (for human nutrition) are based
on hexagonal or pentagonal ring structures ; the usual bonds are [1,4]
or [1,6] linkages in polymers of these compounds.
The possible permutations of linkages are far bigger than for peptide
(amino acid-amino acid) or purine and pyrimidine (RNA, DNA) bonding.

Brief digression : Aliens with genetic material based on complex
polysaccharides, anyone?

On the subject of feeding the colonists, we're done for 'sugars', now
there's proteins, fats, trace elements and cofactors ('vitamins') to
deal with....

Hostile biospheres will be a bear to tame.
It may be easier to torch (fusion? incineration?) the biomass and start
again.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:24:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Background Music

On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, Alan Bradley wrote:

> For going into jump:  the theme from Lost In Space.
> 
> (The series of course)

Season One or Season Two? They're different.
The new one's not too bad as it's adapted from the season 2 titles.

BTW: Does anyone know of a program which allows to fade in/fade out or mix
titles from a CD or Harddisk while playing? I'm think of a kind of
software solution for the aforementioned way of inking some walkmen
together ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:26:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Background Music

On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:

> Also, has anyone got a good "decompression" or "suit  leak"  hiss
> sound effect?  I haven't found anything usable, and  attempts  to
> make my own sound effect for this have not been successful.

Hmm. Why not take it direct from the movies 2001: A Space Odyssey and
Outland? (if possible)

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:34:08 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Background Music

On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> For just after they've accepted an unwise contract (mercenary or otherwise):
> 
> The theme from the *movie* M*A*S*H (to get the words, you have to
> record it off a video of the movie). For those not familiar with the
> words, the tune is named after the chorus "Suicide is painless..."

A wonderful song. I've got it on a single.
For Roleplaying I'd prefer soundtracks, but got some problems to follow
the game mastering while fiddling with the CDs ... 

There's another song I'd like to use for this, as I did for a magic show
short ago. What about playing the Theme from Tomb Raider when entering a
dungeon, i.e. the Shadows Complex? (If there's the right character, of
course.)

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:52:01 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG)

Guillem Plasencia wrote:

> 
> It now comes to my mind a film i saw a long time ago, where some people where launched in a spaceshis with huge domes with plants inside
> (trees...) as in Earth they were diseapearing (or something, i don't remembar), and then they received instructions to cut the domes off and
> lost the trees and one of them went nuts and killed the others to prevent it...
> 
> May be he liked their taste :D

"Silent Running", starring Bruce Dern as 'gasp' the crazy guy (wotta
stretch!:), Directed (iirc) by Douglas Trumbull, sfx director on 2001.

Saw the dome model at an SF con a long time ago where Trumbull was a GOH, he
tried to get the whole ship, but by the time filiming ended only one of the
domes was left. Quite a neat model, little tiny robots in it and all.

Used to have the soundtrack on tape. In fact, parts of it would make good bg
music...

And no, there's a scene where he 'buries' his crewmates in space. He was
living off the land, so to speak.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:58:22 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] Books/Other Media

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 08:07 pm 12/20/98 +0000, you wrote:
> >Can anyone remember a Robert Silverberg (I think) book where the plot
> >resolves around millions of parallel universes and someone Travelling
> >between them. I read it many years ago and can't remember what it was
> >called.
> 
>         There was a Heinlein book, titled "The Number Of The Beast,"
> centered around 'pan-theistic multiperson solipsism'--if anybody ever
> thought up a universe, it existed, and the heroes were travelling
> around through a variety of them.

Well, the Silverberg book is "___<something>___ Highway" I think, 'twas quite
good.

And if you look at them, ALL of Heinleins later novels are set in the same
'multiverse', which let him reuse favorite characters with abandon...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:00:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Pressure Suit Puncture

True, but this is a rather self-correcting problem...if you're on the
_outside_ of the suit, with ears naked to space, you have , well, _other_
things to worry about, like the air whistling out of your lungs 
;-)

Clif wrote:
> 
> One thing is that you wouldn't hear the sound on the outside of the suit,
> due to the vacuum outside.
> 
> --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:03:02 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Engineering skill in T5

Erwin Fritz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The PCs are on a ship that requires two engineers. Now, if only one
engineer makes the task rolls, what good is the other engineer? More
generally, if the task is not cooperative, then all ships should require
at most one engineer, regardless of how many millions of tons they are.

Comments?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My knee-jerk answer is "Yes, it should be a cooperative task". There is
the time factor, though. Most of the computer support work I do is done
solo, I simply don't have enough hours in the week to do all the tasks
my department needs done. (Though there are problems I consult
with colleagues on.) Freddie the Chief Engineer is busy tracking
down that short in the main fuel treatment pump, Jamie the Drive Hand
has to do the diagnostic on the thruster plates. Too many things on a big
starship for one engineer to do.

Then the GM can be nice and give you an emergency situation. The
power plant has to be brought on-line, *and* the damaged jump drive
has to be repaired, before the enemy ship finds you. More than one
roll to make, not enough task time for one engineer to do both.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1295
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, December 21 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1296



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fire Support for Marines
re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double standard
Re: Slight COnfusion
Silent Running (was re: Digesting Aliens)
Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)
Re: Background Music
Re: 2 Engineers
Re: Background Music
Scifi Movie (Was Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG))
Re: X-Boat Routes
Re: Need for Contra-Grav in Thruster Starships?
Re: AV vs DR
Re: Merchant Ships in GT
Re: Claymore or less
Re: T2000
Humor (Warning! Religious and Military references!): Twas the Night Before Christmas II
Re: Need for Contra-Grav in Thruster Starships?
Call for Artists
Re: Grendalls Daughter
Re: OOPS
Re: Grendalls Daughter

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:12:19 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

At 07:09 PM 12/20/98, you wrote:
>At 07:45 PM 12/20/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>On 12/17/98 at 11:04 PM,  dberry@hooked.net said:
>
>>Oh my, Kenny "The Snake" Stabler! Am I glad I wasn't drinking anything
>when I saw this. ;->
>>
>>I suppose it runs on beer and has an inflatable belly for soft landings,
too!
>
>Nah, but it blames any errors on the other ships in the fleet.
>
>>Eris, 
>>    another good ol' boy from LA...that's Lower Alabama, you all! ;->
>
>Glad you specified that.  There never were any LA Raiders, that was a
>period of mass delusion.
>
>Go Niners.

Same delusion that made people think there was a team named the browns, and
that the colts moved to Indianapolis. Everyone knows the colts just changed
their name to Ravens.

Go Cincy!
*ducking*

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:17:25 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double standard

David Reed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> G-d; I hope osama bin laden isn't reading this thread....:-(

probably not, but i'll be sure to pass on the advice.  there's a lot of
payback on the drawing board for the current cruise missile slaughter of
innocents... and afghanistan and the sudan haven't even been avenged, yet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Tsk tsk, you've forgotten one of the prime tenets of terrorism:

"There are no innocents."

Simply by living in a country, you support the government of that
country. By not overthrowing your own government, you are party
to and responsible for every action of that government - and therefore
(even if powerless and/or a child) are a legitimate target for retribution
against that government.

Without that philosophy, no one can justify punishing a country by
bombing an airliner full of civilians...or dropping cruise missiles on
a city full of people.

ObTrav: As Dave said, moral dilemmas are a great way to spice up
a Traveller campaign...unless you have the odd fortune of having a set
of players with no moral scruples whatsoever. 

"We torture and maim the guy at the bar until he tells us where the
missing starship is." (soon followed by) "Why is everybody shooting
at us?"

That's what I get for teaching D&D players Traveller...<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:27:47 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Slight COnfusion

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
> The original poster wasn't all that far off, since he's describing a
> neutro_n_ scanner, yah gotta give them credit for trying. So Ethan was
> right, it _was_ only _slight_ confusion.

Really? I thought it was a nitrogen/nitrate detector. I would have
thought detecting explosives chemically would be a lot easier than
using  radiation or what have you.

> Any mention of _neutrino_ scanners such as might be installed in
> airports to detect weapons, bombs and implant-less individuals would
> have to be derived from alien technology, and of _course_ that doesn't
> exist.

What I want is the technology to find the one passenger who always
checks his baggage but never gets on the plane, causing huge gate
delays. I would personally swap late-passenger-checking technology for
bomb-finding technology any day (hey, if your plane blows up you have an
excuse for being late)

ObTrav: The player's tramp merchant loads a high passenger's 4dt of
cargo into various nooks and crannies of the ship and then he doesn't
show up to board... what to do?

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:33:19 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Silent Running (was re: Digesting Aliens)

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> It now comes to my mind a film i saw a long time ago, where some people where launched in a spaceshis with huge domes with plants inside
> (trees...) as in Earth they were diseapearing (or something, i don't remembar), and then they received instructions to cut the domes off and
> lost the trees and one of them went nuts and killed the others to prevent it...
> 
> May be he liked their taste :D

<snip>

And no, there's a scene where he 'buries' his crewmates in space. He was
living off the land, so to speak.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Interesting movie.

IIRC, the crew was ordered to dispose of the bio-pods - the project was
being cancelled due to budget cuts, maybe no one thought Earth
would ever be in good enough shape to have wild ecosystems again.
They were going to eject and self-destruct the bio-pods. Bruce Dern's
character ejected a pod while two crewmates were still in it (boom!),
and offed another one (two?) with a shovel. He buried the ones he
killed with a shovel in one of the bio-pods.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:51:24 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)

>
>obtrav: i'm coming to this thread late (having just rejoined the list), but
>i'm fixin' to embroil my players in a terrorist/guerilla war of a similar
>nature, and i'm curious how other groups of players have dealt with the
>moral dilemmas inherent in such a conflict.  who are your players more
>likely to identify with: the tyrants, the innocent victims, the resistance,
>or the biggest pile of credits?
>

        I have discovered it depends on two things:  How the GM spin doctors
the intial briefing, and how big the pile of credits is vs the type of
characters being played.  In one scenario I ran, the players were hired to
function as elite counter insurgency troops against a native uprising that
had killed, or more usually, horribly maimed, hundreds over the past two years.
        I provided the group with Library data indicating the types and
extents of the attrocoites, how the rebels specifically went after civillian
targets, etc, etc. and had the local governement offer them a Dream Ticket
for their Merc Company.  So, about three months of insurection quashing
later, with the players riding high on the morality horse, defending the
down-trodden, etc, they ambushed a Rebel unit about to wipe out a village.
        One of the "Rebels" was carrying a government Regular Forces ID
card.  They'd been had.  Badly.
        They geeked the government within a month for *free*.

        It all depends on how you layout the scenario, and how mercenary the
characters are.  Even Han Solo threw his hat into a fight that wasn't
his,...  =)

        Happy Holidays!
        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:54:56 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Background Music

At 02:24 PM 21/12/98 +0100, you wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, Alan Bradley wrote:
>
>> For going into jump:  the theme from Lost In Space.
>> 
>> (The series of course)
>
>Season One or Season Two? They're different.
>The new one's not too bad as it's adapted from the season 2 titles.
>
>BTW: Does anyone know of a program which allows to fade in/fade out or mix
>titles from a CD or Harddisk while playing? I'm think of a kind of
>software solution for the aforementioned way of inking some walkmen
>together ...
>
>L.A.
>
>
 From the README.TXT:
        O/_____________________
        O
Mixman Technologies Inc.

April 27th, 1998

Mixman Studio Demo _ Release: 1.5

Welcome to the future of Music Making on the PC!

Mixman Studio Demo is a "light version" of Mixman Studio. It is free from
our Website and allows you to see what Mixman Studio is about. You can load
tracks and record your performance. You can play music. For all the rest of
the features, Upgrade to Mixman Studio available from us directly
1.888.4MIXMAN or at a retailer such as Best Buy or Comp USA near you.

        O/_____________________
        O

        It does everything I need in this respect.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:55:19 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: 2 Engineers

Clif wrote:
> 
> Wouldn't you need 2 engineers to work in shifts?
> 

I thought about that, but I don't like that idea because the rules (CT, MT,
whatever) which define crew requirements never make any mention of shift work.
Assuming a 24 hour day, you'd always need two or three of every crew position
then. The fact that _small_ starships never need more than one or two engineers,
one or two bridge crew, etc., seems to indicate that 24-hour coverage isn't
needed.

YMMV, of course.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:07:30 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Background Music

At 10:00 AM 19/12/98, you wrote:
>At 05:03 PM 12/19/98 -0000, you wrote:
>
>>BBC Sound Effects #19 - Dr Who Sound Effects (vinyl)
>
>Nopw that's what you want for the intiation of jump, the TARDIS
>dematerializing...
>
>I'm now picturing the 5th Doctor dealing with the Vargr..

        Hi, Doug!
        I am now picturing Vargr dealing with K9 and his disintegrator
snout.... =)
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:58:01 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Scifi Movie (Was Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG))

Guillem Plasencia posted:
> 
> It now comes to my mind a film i saw a long time ago, where 
> some people where launched in a spaceshis with huge domes 
> with plants inside
> (trees...) as in Earth they were diseapearing (or something, 
> i don't remembar), and then they received instructions to cut 
> the domes off and
> lost the trees and one of them went nuts and killed the 
> others to prevent it...
> 
> May be he liked their taste :D

It's called "Silent Running". The shipboard trees were the last
the Earth had and were placed in space as a "preserve". Someone
decided Earth no longer needed them and gave the thumbs-up to
destroy them (the moron!)

An *excellent* movie with novel uses of robots. Someone put
quite a bit of thought into it (equal to 2001: A Space
Odessey in visual background). It's definitely worth renting if
it can still be found.

As a matter of fact, I'd say this one is worth owning.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:53:06 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: X-Boat Routes

<snip comments about xboat network>

>The original version is the one in CT's "Spinward Marches Campaign" and
>the indside cover of one of the MT rulebooks.  Take this as the base
>network.

>Changes in GT:Behind the Claw --

<snip>

>Changes in MT:MegaTraveller Journal #1 --

<snip>

>The Spinward Marches network is a bit weird.  The Solomani Rim network
>looks a lot more rational.
>
>  -- Steve Bonneville


This brings to mind (well to my mind, at least) the thought that the xboat
network is hardly as monolithic and unchangeable as some might suggest as a
handwave to explain it's irrationality.

[Of course, these are the result of a contiunity errors and/or changes of
thinking on the part of the various authors, but ...]

The claim that the xboat network made sense when it was established and
just didn't change due to geopolitical inertia doesn't jive with all the
changes noted above.

Woo hoo!!!

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:28:57 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Need for Contra-Grav in Thruster Starships?

>Does a landing-capable starship need a CG drive, if it has thrusters of
>over 1G?  For example, do I need to install a 1G CG drive on a cruiser
>with 4G of thruster acceleration?

Depends how you lay it out. There are several choices for a spacecraft
to be able to take off:

1: Contra-grav with thrust > local gravity
   & streamlined (any level)

2: T-plates with thrust > local gravity 
   & vertical deck orientation (decks perpendicular to thrust)

3: (Contra-grav) *or* (T-plates) with thrust > ~0.5*local gravity
   & hypersonic airframe streamlining
   & a runway

1. is a standard traveller ship like a type-S; takes off vertically and 
then flies forward
2. is a tail-lander like the Broadsword or AHL or (real-world) DC-X; it's a
mild nuisance to unload a lot of cargo off it compared to a through-deck
design like most type (1) merchants

3. takes off and lands like an aircraft

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:28:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: AV vs DR

Eris Reddoch writes:
> 
> However, if you include radical sloping on the armor (not
> unreasonable for a tank) you get DR 1848, and because both FFS and
> GURPS V2 use the same basic philosophies concerning armor values I
> think it would be reasonable to double the armor value in TNE terms
> to 132 AV.

Slope is probably already included in AV -- so yes, it's DR 924.  Which is,
incidentally, absurdly low (for comparison, frontal armor on a M-1 equivalent
tank in GVE is rated at DR 1,680...). 
> 
> BTW, has anyone converted the FFS armors into GV2 values?  If 1cm of
> hard steel is 2 AV and DR 28, then we might say 1AV = DR14, thus...

GURPS armor is rated in DR per pound-sf, not DR per inch (i.e. rated based on
weight, not based on thickness).  We'll ignore that for construction materials
rather than building materials, though.  I don't remember exact densities for
all the armors, but basically it is 0.15 * (density/toughness)
> 
>                       TNE         GURPS
>  Description         AV/cm   DR/cm   DR/inch
>  ============================================
>  Iron                 1.50    21.0     52.5 0.8 lb/sf/DR
>  Soft Steel           1.70    23.8     59.5 0.7 lb/sf/DR
>  Hard Steel           2.00    28.0     70.0 0.6 lb/sf/DR
>  Composite Laminate   6.00    84.0    210.0 Hm..density 7 iirc.  0.18 lb/sf.
>  Crystal Iron         8.00   112.0    280.0 Density 10 isn't it...0.18 lb/sf.
>  SuperDense          14.00   196.0    490.0 Density 15.  .16 lb/sf.
>  Bonded SD           28.00   392.0    980.0 Density 15.  .08 lb/sf.
>  Coherent SD         40.00   560.0   1400.0 Density 15.  .056 lb/sf.
> 
> How does that look?  

Well, the best GTL-12 armors are rated at 0.15 lb/sf (and incredibly
expensive), the standard armor used on spaceships is rated at 0.4 lb/sf.  I've
always been somewhat unimpressed by traveller armor, weight for weight it
barely improves from TL 8 to TL 13.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:34:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Merchant Ships in GT

John R. Snead writes:
> 
> Personally, I think the whole ship design system would make rather more
> sense if streamlining reduced volume by 10% rather than 20%.  It's still
> clearly a sacrifice, but not a *huge* one. 

Nah.  There's a reason for the 20% streamlining penalty, and (as far as
_storage_ volume goes) it isn't unreasonable.  What they should have done is
made the 'volume' for streamlining only apply for purposes of computing surface
are and docking the ship (thus, a 200 T SL hull would count as 250 T if you
tried to put it in a spacedock, and also counts as 250 T for purposes of
computing surface area).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 01:05:52 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

Clif wrote:

> C4 has a speed of light burn...

Naw, it doesn't. It propogates at something like 200k ft/sec
no wheres near C. Could give the exact spec. if I could
find my demo manual.

Evyn...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 01:32:38 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: T2000

Walter Smith wrote:

> Evyn MacDude wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Hell, I once played while on watch. Of the five stations online on
> sound powered phones we had five gamers. That was the being of
> my longest CT game, every other day for about 5 months.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I'm just imagining a CO picking up the phone and hearing what
> you and your players are talking about.

Actually, the Old man was a gamer, Historical minis mostly.Thou he did
play harpoon with me at a couple local cons.

> ..as the base goes on Alert due to an alien attack on the watch
> stations... <G>

Naw the Zero on the watch was a regular in the airframe
shops nightly D&D hack and slash.

Hell I played CT sunday mornings in boot camp.


Evyn...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:09:19 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Humor (Warning! Religious and Military references!): Twas the Night Before Christmas II

Twas the Night Before Christmas II

Twas the night before Christmas, and all through the skys
Air defenses were up, with electronic eyes.
Combat pilots were nestled in ready-room beds
As enemy silhouettes danced in their heads.

Every jet on the apron, each SAM in its tube
Was triply-redundant linked to the Blue Cube,
And ElInt and AWACS gave coverage so dense
That nothing that flew could slip through our defense.

When out of the klaxon arose such a clatter
I turned to the screen to see what was the matter;
I dialed up the gain and then quick as a flash
Fine-adjusted the filters to damp out the hash.

And there found the source of the warning we'd heeded:
An incoming blip, by eight escorts preceded.
"Alert status red!" went the word down the wire,
As we gave every system the codes that meant "FIRE"!
On Aegis!  Up Patriot, Phalanx and Hawk!
And scramble our fighters -- let's send the whole flock!
Launch decoys and missiles!  Use chaff by the yard!
Get the kitchen sink up!  Call the National Guard!

They turned toward the target, moved toward it, converged.
Then the tracks on the radar all finally merged,
And the sky was lit up with a demonic light
As the foe met his fate in the high arctic night.

So we sent out some recon to look for debris,
Yet all that they found, both on land and on sea
Were some toys, a red hat, a charred left leather boot,
Broken sleighbells, white hair, and a deer's parachute.

Now it isn't quite Christmas, with Saint Nick shot down.
There are unhappy kids in each village and town.
For the Spirit of Christmas can't hope to evade
All the web of defenses we've carefully made.

For look how the gadgets we use to protect us
In other ways alter, transform and affect us.
They keep us from things that make life more worth living
Like love for each other, and thoughts of just giving.

But a crash program's on:  Working hard, night and day,
All the elves are constructing a radar-proof sleigh.
So let's wait for next Christmas, in cheer and in health,
For the future has hope:  Santa's coming by stealth!


Happy Holidays!

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because 
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:40:06 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Need for Contra-Grav in Thruster Starships?

Black ICE wrote:

>A question for the gearheads on the list, from an apprentice gearhead:
>
>Does a landing-capable starship need a CG drive, if it has thrusters of
>over 1G?  For example, do I need to install a 1G CG drive on a cruiser
>with 4G of thruster acceleration?
>
>All of the FF&S2 designs I've worked up have 1G of CG, without regard
>for the thruster plate rating.  (Of course, this doesn't include my
>non-streamlined designs.)

My take is, it depends.

If the starship has an airframe configuration, then no - the thrusters
will get it moving fast enough to take off horizontally; and then it can
point the nose up and thrust down. Away we go.

If the starship sits on it's tail, then no. We had the huge parallel /
perpendicular decks argument a while back, and this was one of the
points - if the ship lands with its thrusters pointing at the ground, it
doesn't need CG to take off again. Just fire up the thrusters.

If the ship doesn't fit into either of the above, then yes - it can't
use it's thrust to take off, since it's pointing in the wrong direction.
(Unless you want to have some huge tilting mechanism at the starport).

Be careful: A large, dense planet (say, size A but denser than Earth)
could have 2G of surface grav, making taking off in a 2G ship - awkward.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:09:21 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Call for Artists

Gentlebeings,

For those of you who have not heard, I am once again Art Director at SJ
Games (in addition to my permanent gig as Traveller Line Editor). I am
searching for artists for the Traveller line, specifically the upcoming Far
Trader trade and commerce sourcebook. This book has an art deadline of 15
January (which is rapidly approaching). Interested parties should contact
me at lkw@io.com.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:24:26 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Grendalls Daughter

Excellent work, Thank You. Are you by any chance doing floor plans?
You should probably get a hold of Loren Wiseman. I pasted his inquiry
here in case you didn't get it off the list.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------
Gentlebeings,

For those of you who have not heard, I am once again Art Director at SJ
Games (in addition to my permanent gig as Traveller Line Editor). I am
searching for artists for the Traveller line, specifically the upcoming Far
Trader trade and commerce sourcebook. This book has an art deadline of 15
January (which is rapidly approaching). Interested parties should contact
me at lkw@io.com.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Again thanks
Dave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:26:24 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: OOPS

Sorry I sent the last to the list by mistake.
Dave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:43:08 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Grendalls Daughter

Thank you!

I did see the post.  Jan 15's a wee bit tight, but I might talk to him.

I've done deckplans for my own ships.  The most recent is my Acipter Class
Armored Merchant that I designed with Andy Akins' spreadsheet (I always
detested <and nearly flunked> math in school).  If you're interested I'll
send you a zip file with the spread sheet and .jpg deckplans.

Jesse
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: Grendalls Daughter


>Excellent work, Thank You. Are you by any chance doing floor plans?
>You should probably get a hold of Loren Wiseman. I pasted his inquiry
>here in case you didn't get it off the list.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
>----------------------
>Gentlebeings,
>
>For those of you who have not heard, I am once again Art Director at SJ
>Games (in addition to my permanent gig as Traveller Line Editor). I am
>searching for artists for the Traveller line, specifically the upcoming Far
>Trader trade and commerce sourcebook. This book has an art deadline of 15
>January (which is rapidly approaching). Interested parties should contact
>me at lkw@io.com.
>
>
>
>Loren Wiseman
>     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
>     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
>     SJ Games
>     LKW@IO.COM
>     (512) 447-7866 VOX
>     (512) 447-1144 FAX
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
>-------------------
>Again thanks
>Dave
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1296
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, December 21 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1297



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Pressure Suit Puncture
Overthrowing Government?
Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)
Re: Claymore or less
RPG's in Boot Camp
Re: Digesting Aliens
Re: [OT] Books/Other Media
RE: Missiles in G:T
Re: Silent Running...
Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules
Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)
Re: GT: combat example
Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules
Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules
Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard?
Re: [OT] Books/Other Media
[OT] Ultraviolet on Video?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1296

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:08:06 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Pressure Suit Puncture

Oh yeah, sound transmission through the solids of the body.

Whoa!

It probably wouldn't take long to empty a pair of human lungs in the vacuum.

Just think of how quickly helium is released when you inhale a baloon and
start talking.

The lung/vacuum pressure ration would obviously be much greater in space
than at a frat house party.

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: Pressure Suit Puncture


>True, but this is a rather self-correcting problem...if you're on the
>_outside_ of the suit, with ears naked to space, you have , well, _other_
>things to worry about, like the air whistling out of your lungs
>;-)
>
>Clif wrote:
>>
>> One thing is that you wouldn't hear the sound on the outside of the suit,
>> due to the vacuum outside.
>>
>> --Clif
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:17:22 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Overthrowing Government?

>Simply by living in a country, you support the government of that
>country.

Yes, I can see your point to be true.

> By not overthrowing your own government, you are party
>to and responsible for every action of that government - and therefore
>(even if powerless and/or a child) are a legitimate target for retribution
>against that government.

Hmmm, but the terrorists ought to understand that it is pretty much
impossible to carry off a coup in *this* country.  We don't necessarily like
what our country is doing, but that doesn't mean our government(those who
have; the powers that be) is going to truly reform.

The closest this country came to a coup in recent years was shortly before
the Oklahoma City bombing.  All of the patriot and militia groups were
called to show up, at arms, in D.C. in the fall of the previous year, if my
memory serves me well.  This call had been extended by self-appointed
General Linda Thompson, a real crackpot.

I don't remember hearing that anyone had shown up or that a firm date had
been set.

What the whole stunt *did* do, however, was allow the Feds to compile a list
of "true believers."  You can bet they are keeping tabs on the dangerous
ones, to this day.

And if you were in the military flying your squadron's AH-64A Apache
anti-tank helicopter and you were under orders to fire on a parade of
redneck militiamen, you're gonna obey orders or see your hiney in the Ft.
Leavenworth.

An Apache vs. a bolt-action rifle is a fine example of overkill.

A peasant COULDN'T carry out a coup in this country or even successfully
organize one unless the government permitted it because it served their
purposes.

- --Clif
>
>Without that philosophy, no one can justify punishing a country by
>bombing an airliner full of civilians...or dropping cruise missiles on
>a city full of people.
>
>ObTrav: As Dave said, moral dilemmas are a great way to spice up
>a Traveller campaign...unless you have the odd fortune of having a set
>of players with no moral scruples whatsoever.
>
>"We torture and maim the guy at the bar until he tells us where the
>missing starship is." (soon followed by) "Why is everybody shooting
>at us?"
>
>That's what I get for teaching D&D players Traveller...<G>
>
>Walt Smith
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:21:49 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)

Yeah, and look how it paid off!  He won himself a spunky little princess!

Before *that*, his love life was strictly "Han solo", if you know what I
mean.

- --Clif
(borrowing from Letterman's "Top Ten Symptoms that You've Been Watching Too
Much 'Star Wars'."

"You can't have sex unless your wife says, 'Help me, Obi-wan, you're my only
hope'."


>Even Han Solo threw his hat into a fight that wasn't
>his,...  =)
>
>        Happy Holidays!
>        --Michel
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>
> Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:24:56 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

Oh, well then the Ranger instructor misinformed us.  (he was a Ranger
instructing us service support pukes).

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: Claymore or less


>
>
>Clif wrote:
>
>> C4 has a speed of light burn...
>
>Naw, it doesn't. It propogates at something like 200k ft/sec
>no wheres near C. Could give the exact spec. if I could
>find my demo manual.
>
>Evyn...
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:27:06 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: RPG's in Boot Camp

LOL!

You just reminded me how we played one session of D&D in Basic Training in
the Army one Sunday morning...

One of the guys made a "dice" out of folder paper...

It was crude, but we were Jonesin'.

- --Clif
>Hell I played CT sunday mornings in boot camp.
>
>
>Evyn...
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 19:13:27 +0100
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Re: Digesting Aliens

> Robert O'Connor
>
> The physiology of intestinal absorption of carbohydrates as described by
> Guillem Plascencia is largely correct.
>

I hope so, i have an exam on this next January  :)

> Brief digression : Aliens with genetic material based on complex
> polysaccharides, anyone?

I like the idea, as polysaccharides are more soluble on water than nitrogenated bases, so in the beggining there would be greater amount of them
available...but , making the question into the other way : why if there were more polysaccharides available were nitrogenated bases chosen?

Some say because they are more stable, (given that there aren't enzymes around, sugars can react with amino groups to form Schiff bases in a
non-enzymatic reaction, so sugars would be a not very reliable information carriers... IIRC this may be a problem in diabetic patients, which have
a form of haemoglobin covalently joined to glucose, that can be used as an analitical measure).

So, even if nitrogenated bases are not the best, they are more stable than sugars (or they seem to). That could be a point to have in mind.


> On the subject of feeding the colonists, we're done for 'sugars', now
> there's proteins, fats, trace elements and cofactors ('vitamins') to
> deal with....
>
> Hostile biospheres will be a bear to tame.
> It may be easier to torch (fusion? incineration?) the biomass and start
> again.
>

Very nice... Didn't you heard that Rio congress about biodiversity?    :D   (just joking, no offense intended).


- --
Guillem Plasencia
guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:05:23 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Books/Other Media

At 20:07 20-12-98 +0000, Dom Mooney wrote:
>Can anyone remember a Robert Silverberg (I think) book where the plot
>resolves around millions of parallel universes and someone Travelling
>between them. I read it many years ago and can't remember what it was
>called.

Try the Uchronia web page (sorry, don't have the URL handy) - it's
dedicated to alternate histories.


James


- ----------     ----------     ----------     ----------
HEAVEN is where all the police are English, the mechanics
German, the lovers Greek, and the cooks French, and it's
all run by the Swiss.  HELL is where all the police are
German, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss, and the
cooks English, and it's all run by the Greeks.
                      (from a t-shirt I bought in Greece)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:57:33 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: RE: Missiles in G:T

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:59:42 -0600
From: Dave Seagraves <daveseag@io.com>
Subject: RE: Missiles in G:T



   Do all GURPS Traveller spacecraft have vectored thrust installed?
***********
yes.


 If =
so, where is the reference?
****************
In the design section.



 I haven't seen this rule, but then again I =
haven't systematically read the entire book.  This question is important =
for aiming fixed-mount direct-fire weapons compared with the direction =
of acceleration.
*******8
very important.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:58:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Silent Running...

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:

> IIRC, the crew was ordered to dispose of the bio-pods - the project was
> being cancelled due to budget cuts, maybe no one thought Earth
> would ever be in good enough shape to have wild ecosystems again.
> They were going to eject and self-destruct the bio-pods. Bruce Dern's
> character ejected a pod while two crewmates were still in it (boom!),
> and offed another one (two?) with a shovel. He buried the ones he
> killed with a shovel in one of the bio-pods.

...and David Smart <David.Smart@ons.octel.com> writes:

> It's called "Silent Running". The shipboard trees were the last
> the Earth had and were placed in space as a "preserve". Someone
> decided Earth no longer needed them and gave the thumbs-up to
> destroy them (the moron!)
> 
> An *excellent* movie with novel uses of robots. Someone put
> quite a bit of thought into it (equal to 2001: A Space
> Odessey in visual background). It's definitely worth renting if
> it can still be found.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I'd say this one is worth owning.

I agree!  I just bought a copy of it on LaserDisc from Ken Cranes
Video Online (http://kencranes.com).  The soundtrack is also available
on CD.  Joan Baez does all the vocals for the movie.  Of note is
that "Doctor" Peter Schickele (of "PDQ Bach" fame) composed and
directed all of the orchestral pieces for the soundtrack and it
is very stirring.

Doug Trumble (SFX director for "2001") directed this film with
no prior experience.  He likened it to OJT (On-The-Job-Training.)
To keep costs down, Trumbull hired college students for modelmaking
and other such special effects work. One of them was a young man
named John Dykstra, who, as some of you might know, went on to bigger
and better things (Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi,
et.al.)

Cliff Potts (Wolf), Ron Rifkin (Barker), and Jesse Vint (Keenan),
played Bruce Dern's (Freeman Lowell) crewmates aboard the American
Airways Orbital Freighter "Valley Forge".  This ship, along with
sister ships "Sequoia" and "Berkshire", carry the entire remaining
biosphere for the industrialized-to-death planet earth.   Each
ship carries six "bio-domes", each of which contained a different
environmental base (tundra, desert, jungle, alpine forest, etc.)

Of all the crewmembers on all three ships, Lowell is considered
the "crazy old man", having voluntarily re-uped four times, and
thus having spent eight *years* aboard the Valley Forge.  Only he
truly cares about the forests.  The others simply think of them
as "cargo".  When the recall order comes, ordering the the crews
of the three ships to jettison and destruct the domes, and return
the ships to commercial service, Lowell rebels, and embarks on
an insane one-man crusade to save the forests.

This is a "must-see" movie for all tru SF entusiasts.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > I believe that "decimation" originated with the Roman legions.

    Of course it originated with the Romans! Who else would _need_
    a word that means "kill every tenth person"?  - Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:59:42 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:50:14 -0500
From: Fred and Evelyn Wolke <thewolkes@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules

EXCELLENT idea.  There should definitely be blowthrough rules.
How about this: Divide the damage into increments equal to 50% of the
target's total HP.  The first increment does full damage, 1/2 for the
second, 1/4 for the third, 1/8 for the fourth, et cetera.  (this
essentially makes destroying the ship wholesale an asymptotic limit)
*******************
I was thinking more about huge bulk freighters, huge holds, and little
armor... good chance of a missile just puching through..



For example: A scoutship (DR 100, HP 15,000) gets hit by a missile for for
30,000 DP.

total:                   14,062
"I'm not dead yet!"
*****
*********
a scout with 9 major damage rolls is still dead. :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:01:13 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)

In a message dated 12/20/98 8:52:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
de.reed@xolutions.com writes:

<< obtrav: i'm coming to this thread late (having just rejoined the list), but
 i'm fixin' to embroil my players in a terrorist/guerilla war of a similar
 nature, and i'm curious how other groups of players have dealt with the
 moral dilemmas inherent in such a conflict.  who are your players more
 likely to identify with: the tyrants, the innocent victims, the resistance,
 or the biggest pile of credits? >>

I have a moral rule of thumb... If you blow up a combatant (preferrably armed)
you are a guerrilla fighter. If you blow up unarmed civilians, you are a
terrorist. Of course this tends to break down into grayness when you talk
about arial (or in the future, space to ground) bombardment...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:15:59 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: combat example

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:20:22 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: GT: combat example Private...
Aerron brings up a very good point.
>an example of an arguement:
>it doesn't pass through the hex.
>it passed through where the ship would have been during that part of the
>turn.
>did not
>did too.
>Ad Nausium,
  I submit a very very easy method for determining of a missile can impact
on a ship or not.  First, I need to define the following terms:
Mandatory vector: this is the built up vector that a ship has that is the
result of both previous velocity plus current accelleration in the
direction consistant with it's last turn's movement.  Thus, if you moved 10
forward and 6 upper right - the velocity is 16.  And the movement from
previously last position is 10 up, 6 right.
Previous position: this is the position the ship ended at the previous
turn.  This is a counter that is left on the board.  Ideally, what should
be used are three counters for a ship and/or missile.  A) last position.
B) current position  C) mandatory vector postion in the future if the ship
does not accelerate or change it's vector in any manner.
Final position Triangle.  This is the triangle formed by any vehicle made
by the Mandatory Vector in the future position, the last position, and the
new position created by means of using the vehicle's acceleration.
HOW TO DETERMINE A MISSILE COLLISION:
  During movement phase, the ships get to move first.  Then the missiles
get to move.  The missile must move to the mandatory vector postion (since
an object in motion will stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside
force).  The player/pilot of that missile then "corrects" where the final
position of movement would be had the "outside force" in the form of
acceleration been applied during flight.
Impact determination: if at any time, the triangle created by the three
points of:
A) previous position
B) mandatory vector position
C) true ending position
Includes the target ship inside it's boundries - that ship has been
impacted upon at the velocity value of the missile at the time of it's last
position.
In other words, a missile that has a velocity of 72, plus a vector of 70
forward and 2 front left at it's last position, and it is able to impact
upon a ship the following turn - the velocity value is 72 (not 72 + the
acceleration value of the missile).
Remember - the mandatory vector is created by looking at the relationship
between a ship's previous position and it's final position after the
movement turn is done.  So, while this addes a litle bit extra in a step,
it remains true to inertial physics as we know it, removes any chance of
argument...
Player: "It could not have hit me"
GM    : "hmmm, you are inside the area the missile could have hit via
movement right?   Can't argue the fact that you are inside the triangle can
you?"
 I respectfully submit that this method will remove all arguements against
permitting realistic velocity impacts save one - game balance.
************
almost....say the missile has a vector of 100 in direction A while the ship
has a vecto of 10 in direction B(with A as up and B as one hexside
clockwise from it.)
the ship ends up 5 hexes in direction A from the missiles starting point.
it will be within the triangle, but no way the missile could have hit it.

so :
Player: "but I didn't enter the triangle until the missile was way down
there..."





Missile movement.  Ship is moving 100 hexes per turn, then the missile is
moving 100 hexes per turn.  It is the law of inertia.  If I launch a
missile moving 100 hexes per turn, and the missile can match *any* and all
course changes that it's target can make, and maintain a bullseye approach
on target - then the missile hits.  None of this bull about "It must end in
the hex".
************
it we can come up with an unaguable way of determining this, I am all for
it.

My original sugestion was with a triangle of all possible routs the missile
could have taken that must include both the satarting and ending points of
the ship.. I was told it was too cumbersom, and am forced to agree. yours
is a little simple, but still leaves room to argue....it also may be too
complex for play.


Civilian ships carrying weapons of mass destruction: whooooooo boy!  Don't
get me started on this one.  I cannot believe that the Imperium would
permit ships to be held by individuals, such that it can kill massive
amounts of people at a time - without warning!  Put a full powered laser in
the hand's of a terrorist, and watch how long it takes for the Imperium to
close down civilian ship's ability to mount lasers.  Defensive lasers on
the other hand - with a lower ability to do harm, would match both the
needs of the ship to defend itself against enemy missiles, and not permit
it to be a massive potential threat to civilians.
************8
well the lases in GT are defensive lasers...for effective PD you want a
laser that will allways kill a missile.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:21:51 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 01:56:55 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules


Um Aerron?  A question if I may.  How are you doing Point defense Phase firings?
The way I do it is this:  Each laser turret can fire only once at the full
effectiveness at a single target per Point Defense Round.  I use "round" in
this context to distinguish between the laser firing once at full
effectiveness, and then for each succeeding "phase" or "turn", at a
successive -2.  Thus, for me, in a Point defense phase, if you have 200
turrets with lasers in them, it makes better book keeping sense to fire
Turrets 1-200 at full power, then turrets 1-200 at -2, then turrets 1-200
at -4, etc.
***********
yes, just the way I do it, exept I allow a missed missile to be retargeted
in the next round.
  If I understand you correctly, are you suggesting that each point defense
turret gets to fire once at *EVERY* target at the full value, then once at
every target at the -2 value, then once at every target at -4, etc?
****************
no, the turret picks one target. if it misses, it can fire again at the
same target at -2 in the next PD round.



>  Like I said, we should actuall create a CA, then do the battle as I had
>originally suggested.  Ie, we assume the high speed run, and then do the
>200 missiles.  Use the rules as originally written with the "crock of
bull"
>ruling <grin>, and then the "advanced rules" aspect that you can introduce
>in your pending book.
>*************
>ok, will a 30,000 space TL 12 ship do?

Trot out the 30,000 space TL12 ship <grin>.  I have a TL11 CA available if
you desire it, but then again, it was built using TL12 lasers (after all,
they use their own power supply <evil chuckle>.
**************
I will try to IRC tonight and get it to you. (still no email at home).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:25:25 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:44:08 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules

Actually, I rather like the original dodge rules.  (Skill + accel - target
size)/2.  This way, there is only one dodge rule for either laser fire or
missile fire.  That this is how I do it now, has absolutely no bearing on
this discussion <ok, so I didn't say it with a straight face, sue me>.
**********8
ok, if we allow the missile a bonus due to its accel as well :) (increasing
the odds of a critical hit and no  possible dodge.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:08:53 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard?

 "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

>someone else>who are your players more
>> likely to identify with: the tyrants, the innocent victims, the resistance,
>> or the biggest pile of credits?
>Good question.
>I'll let you know as soon as my players run into that situation, which
>should be relatively soon...  <grin>

As a break from Traveller, I've been running SLA Industries (set in a
galaxy run by SLA Industries, headed by the companies' more than 900 year
old founder, sort of a cross between Bladerunner, Brazil and Judge Dredd
with a hint of Glasgow (the city)). It is really easy on the ref, as you
give the players missions (not unlike paranoia) which they have to complete
whilst fitting into the Big Picture etc etc.

Anyway, this (after a while) can be a little tedious on the ref (seen one
seek and destroy mission, seen them all). So I decided to set a moral
dilemma - the players were sent to investigate a 'fraudster' in a downtown
market. Turns out the guy was legit aside from the fact that he ran a
no-interest money lending facility (like the small Credit Unions) for his
fellow downtowners. This broke the law (as only SLA may operate banks etc
IMSIU) but was keeping people away from the banks and absolute poverty.
This was viewed as theft and fraud by SLA.

Anyway, one of the players (an Alien Predator/Samurai clone into Opera)
infiltrated the organisation, using his clan like honour to violate the
lender's trust. Anyway, they found out the whole story - but decided that
the Bigger Picture was that this guy was stealing from SLA. This surprised
me as I thought they'd try and cover things up, but no, they went in like a
SWAT team and killed his entire team, and torched the establishment. And
there was 'collateral damage'.

They handed his ledger with the loan details back to SLA's IRS and knew
that the people on it were set for prison at best. Anyway, I was somewhat
bemused by their interpretation of the Big Picture. And this from a group
who (in Traveller) usually don't do anything more dangerous than visit
restaurants.

But the surprise will be theirs soon, as the Even Bigger Picture is that
their Preator friend's name is on the list handed to the IRS......

So as ever, even on moral calls don't try and predict the player's response!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:14:45 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Books/Other Media

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>Well, the Silverberg book is "___<something>___ Highway" I think, 'twas
>quite good.

Sounds familiar - It was more than 14 years ago though...

>And if you look at them, ALL of Heinleins later novels are set in the same
>'multiverse', which let him reuse favorite characters with abandon...

The UK bookstores are not very good. I had to order Heinlein's Starship
Troopers from the US using IBS. You don't even see current authors like
Cherryh that often. I had to special order _Inheritor_ this weekend! You
get a couple of shelves of the pulp fantasy stuff and very limited SF
choices at the big stores.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:24:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [OT] Ultraviolet on Video?

If you saw Ultraviolet and would like to be able to buy it on video, try

http://www.world-productions.com

Apparently they have a survey on to gauge whether it was worthwhile.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:28:02 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #1296

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:12:19 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Fire Support for Marines

Same delusion that made people think there was a team named the browns, and
that the colts moved to Indianapolis. Everyone knows the colts just changed
their name to Ravens.
************
Um.....
<Glances over at co-worker wearing a Cleveland Browns Jacket>....
<Decides not to say anything>


:)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1297
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, December 21 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1298



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules
Spinward Marches express boat routes
Gredel's Daughter -or- "What in hell are they talking about"
Re: RPG's in Boot Camp
A Picture of His Daughter
Dimension Travel Books
Alternate Takes on FFW (was SM xboat routes)
published sector maps/data
Subject: Re: Merchant Ships in GT
Re: A Picture of His Daughter
Re: Subject: Re: Merchant Ships in GT
Martial Arts IYTU
Re: Background Music
Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)
Re: Overthrowing Government?
Re: Martial Arts IYTU
Re: Background Music
Re: [OT] Books/Other Media
Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG)
Re: Claymore or less
Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double standard
Re: Dimension Travel Books
Re: AV vs DR

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:28:16 -0500
From: Aerron_Winsor@insurquote-ias.com
Subject: Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:51:41 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: GT: Missiles and optional rules
Hello Folks,
At 02:50 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>I think a blowthrough rule is in order, set a max limit based on the
armor
>>of the target?
I brought this question forward to David Pulver some time back.  His
response was that the reason the (5) armor divisor is just for what you
folks are proposing now.  The comment he made was that the damage done by a
solid object at such speeds *is* immense.
**************
I was thinking of huge freighters,  say 50,000 dtons with minimal armor...
what are the chances a missile will just bolo through teh cargo space
nomatter how fast it is going?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:35:16 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Spinward Marches express boat routes

In my old 110x CT/MT campaign, in 1104, Norris and several other nobles
noticed that the official xboat routes were messy at best, and a problem
at worst.  In that game, the Duke of Glisten (hey, IMTU all hi-tech,
hi-pop systems have at least ONE noble) owned a little thing called
Koranistar Lines.  They used it as a dummy corporation for an independent,
noble controlled xboat service (at j-4) to give them more secure service
than ol' Sanchocheev would give them...

Let's see:
Quar - Jewell - Lysen - Efate - Roup - Regina - Treece - Risek - Rhylanor -
	Cipatwe - Powaza - Mora (a spur from Risek to Aramis)
	[The Zhodani-Regina-Mora route]

Retinae - Thanber - Vilis - Saurus - Lanth - D'Ganzio - Quiru - Fosey -
	Moran - Mora
	[The Zhodani-Lanth-Mora route]

Karin - Iderati - Flammarion - Caladbolg - Wardn - Lunion - Quiru
	[The Darrian-Sword Worlds route]

Tobia - Our Planet - Empire - Gazulin - Junction - Bleak (all in Trojan
	Reach) - Chamois - Trin - Katarulu - Pallique - Fornice - Mora
	[The Tobia-Trin-Mora route]

Karin - Wonstar - Singer - Collace - Mille Falcs - Glisten - Ffudn -
	Edenelt - Katarulu
	[The Five Sisters-Glisten backup route]
	(this was intended to insure that if the Sword Worlds went to
	war, info would not be cut off)

All of our FFW plans focused around Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora and Trin -
the hi-pop, hi-tech worlds.  Of course, we didn't actually have a copy
of the FFW board game, just some JTAS's...  So, we (logically?) planned
to only defend in depth pop 8+ worlds with A-B starports and TLs of 9+.
Anything else the Zhodani could waste resources grabbing.

In our game, the PCs became aware of Zhodani war preparations, and 
arranged a visit by an Imperial Fleet (capital elements of the 43rd)
to Thanber just before the Zhodani attack on Jewell began.  It would have
received the info in five weeks (Jewell - Lysen - Tremous Dex - Denotam -
Frenzie - Thanber), but the Zhodani in our game (based on HG+TCS) went
there from Querion (his plans were very much like the Zhodani plans
presented in Spinward Marches Campaign) and they got ripped apart.
The 43rd then jumped to Querion and Sheyou; the lessened pressure on 
Jewell meant our Imperials went on the offensive, seizing Narval (which
was originally Imperial anyway) and from there laying seige to Cipango.

Of course, the lack of an attack across the Abyss meant our Glisten/Trin/
Mora forces needed a victim - can anybody say "What Sword Worlds?"...

When I finally bought Spinward Marches Campaign, I was shocked at the 
gross negligence on Santocheev's part - all that industrial might, 
technology superiority and he still fought a defensive war? I've been
wondering what Pocket Empires would give us as far as economic strength...

So, IMTU, Cipango is a neutral world and the Jewell and Querion subsectors
are Zhodani free, and the so-called "Border Worlds Confederation" (as well
as Mjolnir, Gungnir, Enos and Tyrfing, to give the Imperium control over
all jump-1 traffic in the Sword Worlds) is annexed territory given as
fiefs to the successful ship captains of the FFW (it's a harsh occupation,
with many incidents as the Sword Worlds discover what "psionic suppression"
really means).

Note that IMTU there's a considerable "hawk" group of Spinward Marches
nobility - the Dukes of Tobia and Glisten lead them, while Archduke
Norris (he won the damn war, so we gave him the title in 1111) tries to
keep the moderates in power.  We kept trying to figure out which world
in Foreven sector was colonized by the Imperium in the 500s...  Anyway,
these guys keep the "Zhodani menace" in the TNS headlines in a clever
strategy to force Norris to support a harsher line. 

And the Dukes of Glisten and Tobia were preparing a trip to Capital to
get Strephon to look at a white paper Norris refused to consider:
"The Sixth Frontier War: The Final Psionic Solution".

Stupid Rebellion - we were winning!


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:34:20 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Gredel's Daughter -or- "What in hell are they talking about"

First, apologies to all for sending my broadcast reply to Dave's broadcast
reply....damn those buttons are close together in Outlook!

If you're wondering what in hell we were talking about, it's of a render I
did of the Free Trader 3D model I'm working on called "Grendel's Daughter".
It's gotten rave reviews from the people that have seen it (all two of
them!).  So, if you've got a moment (or longer if you're on a slow
connection) why don't you surf by
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm and let me know what you
think.  Warning, the graphics haven't been optimized yet so it's a little
slow to download currently.

Until next time
Jesse DeGraff

Sorry, I don't have a cool tagline....
:-(

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:33:36 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: RPG's in Boot Camp

i.e., "made dice"...  I know the singular is "die".

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 2:37 PM
Subject: RPG's in Boot Camp


>
>LOL!
>
>You just reminded me how we played one session of D&D in Basic Training in
>the Army one Sunday morning...
>
>One of the guys made a "dice" out of folder paper...
>
>It was crude, but we were Jonesin'.
>
>--Clif
>>Hell I played CT sunday mornings in boot camp.
>>
>>
>>Evyn...
>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:46:57 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: A Picture of His Daughter

Awesome picture, guy!

You ought to take this picture and customize it for it money.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:02:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Dimension Travel Books

Are you sure it was Robert Silverberg?  Larry Niven wrote a short called
"All the Myriad Ways" on this topic, and a collection of amusing shorts
called (I think) "Flight of the Unicorn" about a guy trying to time travel
but ending up slipping "sideways" as he travels back, so that he ends up
in all sorts of fantasy worlds and the like.  Very fun stuff.

Charles.

- -----
"Can anything truly meaningful be said in just a single line? Maybe, maybe
not." 
Charles Collin \\ McGill Psychology \\ http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl
Ph: (514) 398-6151 \\ FAX: (514) 398-4896 \\  charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:20:23 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Alternate Takes on FFW (was SM xboat routes)

I was thinking more about the old games:

In 1104, after the assassination of the Imperial Ambassador, the Dukes
of Glistin, Trin, Tobia, along with the Duke of Regina and the Marquesa
of Mora (I don't remember her title, but she was always included because
Mora is the sector capital, and Mora is a hi-pop, tl 15 world) wrote
a nice note to Strephon.  In it, they basically agreed that a new war
with the Zhodani was coming, and that they'd back each other in writing
Imperial Warrants to take care of things, since the local bureaucracy
was horrible).  Why Norris needed that thing on the Kinunir I never
understood - there were whole stacks of the blanks at the sector capital.
Anyway, as sector duke, Norris was given command of the overall effort,
with the Dukes of Glisten and Tobia (as border dukes) made "Imperial
Marshals" - they couldn't be given any existing naval forces, but could
use their local construction as well as militarization of commercial 
shipping.  The Duke of Trin and the Marquesa of Mora (dang - what is
her title?) were given control of the Spinward Marches economic engine,
with Mora the responsibility for communications and Trin responsibility
for new development (Way Stations, etc).

For all intents, IMTU, Santocheev's sole command remaining within a few
months of the start of the war was over the Jewell defense, which Norris
insisted he personally take charge of.

Someone asked - what about the Vargr raiders?  Well, we took the Mora 
starting fleet, and sent it to the Thoengling Empire, and used that as
a base to beat the Ekhlle Ksafe (their highest TL is C, according to the
Vargr alien module - what a bunch of wimps), while the Thoenglings 
made some "demonstrations" against the Rukh Aegz.  

The Rukh Aegz are actually dangerous - Saell (1027 Gvurrdon) is a hi-tech,
hi-pop world.  We actually proposed a strike on the system, but never
carried it out due to what we felt were supply issues.  I'd love to have
had the recent thoughts on supply in HG available during that game...


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:26:59 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: published sector maps/data

I know about the various websites with sector maps and data.  Does anyone
have a list of *PUBLISHED* sector maps and data...


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:36:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: Merchant Ships in GT

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote: 

> Nah.  There's a reason for the 20% streamlining penalty, and (as far as
> _storage_ volume goes) it isn't unreasonable.  What they should have done
> is made the 'volume' for streamlining only apply for purposes of computing
> surface are and docking the ship (thus, a 200 T SL hull would count as 
> 250 T if you tried to put it in a spacedock, and also counts as 250 T for
> purposes of computing surface area). 

Excellent idea!  I'll definitely be adopting that one.  Streamlining may
make a reasonable portion of the hull unusable as decks, but at least 10%
(and usually) more of any ship is jump fuel tankage, which can be *any*
ship. 

I think your idea solves the problem nicely-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:35:26 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: A Picture of His Daughter

If you were referring to "Grendel's Daughter", it's relatively easy.  That's
the beauty of working in 3D.  Just switch texture maps :)
Jesse



- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 12:47 PM
Subject: A Picture of His Daughter


>Awesome picture, guy!
>
>You ought to take this picture and customize it for it money.
>
>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:48:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Merchant Ships in GT

John R. Snead writes:
> 
> Excellent idea!  I'll definitely be adopting that one.  Streamlining may
> make a reasonable portion of the hull unusable as decks, but at least 10%
> (and usually) more of any ship is jump fuel tankage, which can be *any*
> ship. 

That's a misunderstanding of what I was saying.  The 'waste volume' from
streamlining is in fact _outside of the hull_ -- it cannot be used for fuel or
anything else.  It's really only volume in the sense that it probably increases
the volume required to store the vehicle, since docking bays are probably
rectangular.
However, as a jump bubble is probably _not_ rectangular (if it has shape
restrictions, its probably limited to spheroids) reshaping a vehicle for
streamlining, while it increases the volume required to store the vehicle, may
not increase the size of the jump bubble.

Thus, a 200T SL hull has only 160 spaces free -- but you would only have to
install jump drive and fuel sufficient for 160 spaces....
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:03:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Martial Arts IYTU

Fellow Sophonts:

As a big fan of Steve Perry's "Matador" series, I have a big interest 
in developing the Martial Arts world within my Traveller milieu.  
However, there are very little references to Martial Arts within the 
Traveller material I have available to me.  What I have seen 
indicates that the Aslan have a style involving their dewclaws, and 
the Vargr practice a brutal art known as Infighting.  GT refers to a 
Martial Artist template.  Little else seems referenced.

Seeing as how many of you have more detailed reference libraries for 
the Traveller milieu than I, I wanted to ask a few questions:

1)  Are there any worlds referenced as being centers for Martial Arts 
study and practice?

2)  Are there any sects or other organizations that teach or deal 
with Martial Arts?

3)  Are there any specific Martial Arts identified in canon material?

4)  Are there any established competitions (ala "Bloodsport" or 
"Hunters of the Red Moon") or Martial Arts sub-cultures (like the 
Musashi Flex from the "Matador" series)?

5)  What are the answers to these four questions IYTU?

Thanks in advance for any info anyone can volunteer.

Jason
============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer I
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:35:19 EST
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Background Music

Hi Folks !
My All-Time Favorites (wouldnt try to Gm without them) :
- - Mechwarrior II PCGame (has audiotracks on it;great for Combat/Suspense)
- - The Dune Soundtrack (speaks for itself...)
- - Jean Michel Jarre in all incarnations (VERY moody music from the father of 
                                                        electronic music;
Oxygen+Equinox are  
                                                        probably the best
known: Theme from Moon 
                                                        base Alpha and many
others)
- - Twin Peaks (Mystery...)
- - Starship Troopers (COMBAT !)
+ stuff that was already mentioned...
Also very good:
- - Patlabor (Manga Soundtrack; many Manga Soundtracks are suited very well for 
                RPGs...)
- - They Live Soundtrack (has the perfect 'walking around' track...)
- - Conan the Barbarian (not always apropriate, but still very moody            
                                  by Basil Poledouris, he did the Starship
Troopers     
                                  Soundtrack)
Andreas Reimer
 "War is a matter of vital importance to the state; the province of
  life or death; the road to survival or ruin. It is mandatory that it be
  thoroughly studied"
 - The Art Of War, by Sun Tzu, early Gearhead
                                  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:51:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> Of course this tends to break down into grayness when you talk
> about arial (or in the future, space to ground) bombardment...

Naaah, arial only gets gray when you use too small a size and mess up the
leading...but why are you throwing fonts at them...is this a war of words or
what? :-P

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:12:26 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?

> A peasant COULDN'T carry out a coup in this country or even successfully
> organize one unless the government permitted it because it served their
> purposes.
> 
> --Clif

The problem with this line of argument is that it is fixated on armed
rebellion.  (coups)

A couple of weeks ago I forwarded an OT thing I picked up about Indonesia,
describing million people strong unarmed demonstrations.  That's how you
overthrow governments.

If you use helicopters against them, you have three million people on the
streets the next day.  Your ground forces tend to suffer from mixed
loyalties:  "am I a citizen of (relevant country) or a hired thug?" when
faced with "the people".  Even mercs would tend to start worrying about
their pension plan when this kind of stuff happened.

I'm not saying that repression wouldn't be possible - but this is usually
when governments start backing off.

The US militias have equivalents in Australia, so I'm allowed to be rude
about them.  Basically, these people are stupid Nazis, and it's good they
are incompetent.  That, unfortunately, doesn't stop them from being
dangerous.

OBTRAV:  IMTU the Ine Givar are divided between over-gunned, under-brained
terrorists, and saner political revolutionaries.  The rebellion on
Dinom/Spinward Marches was led by the latter.  The relations between the
two are hardly amicable, and on occasion lethal, with terrorist cells
occasionally shooting "sellout politicians".  The revolutionaries would
rather the terrorists existed in some other universe....

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au


 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:15:52 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts IYTU

There was some material on martial arts in some of the old JTAS issues. 
(Maybe Challenge as well).

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:36:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Background Music

In mail you write:

> On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> For just after they've accepted an unwise contract (mercenary or 
> otherwise):
>> 
>> The theme from the *movie* M*A*S*H (to get the words, you have to
>> record it off a video of the movie). For those not familiar with the
>> words, the tune is named after the chorus "Suicide is painless..."
>
> A wonderful song. I've got it on a single.

Oh? I wasn't aware that they'd ever made a release that had the
*words*. Or does your record just have the music?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:52:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [OT] Books/Other Media

In mail you write:

> David J. Golden wrote:
>> 
>> At 08:07 pm 12/20/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> >Can anyone remember a Robert Silverberg (I think) book where the
>> plot
>> >resolves around millions of parallel universes and someone
>> Travelling
>> >between them. I read it many years ago and can't remember what it
>> was
>> >called.
>> 
>>         There was a Heinlein book, titled "The Number Of The Beast,"
>> centered around 'pan-theistic multiperson solipsism'--if anybody ever
>> thought up a universe, it existed, and the heroes were travelling
>> around through a variety of them.
>
> Well, the Silverberg book is "___<something>___ Highway" I think, 'twas 
> quite good.

Sounds a bit like Zelazny's "Roadmarks".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:55:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Digesting Aliens  (LONG)

In mail you write:

>> I've also heard that we don't *want* such flora as they tend to produce
>> *way* too much methane in the process. We'd die of what cattlemen call
>> "bloat".
>
> I didn't knew. Bloating isn't a nice way to die...i thought we didn't wanted 
> those flora due to the social not-well-seen side effect of having
> to let those methane go out   :)

I heard about a project involving modified E.Coli to turn biomass into
methane. They had to stop and re-think things when someone asked what
would happen if any of the strain got into humans. Apparently it
*would* be able to survive, and the methane production would have been
right up there in the "explosive emissions" levels. 

Makes for a great "plague", but not something you want around. 

>> Actually, it occurs to me that we might deal with it the way we deal
>> with lactose intolerance. Mass produce the required enzymes and then
>> take *those* with the food, and also add the enzyme to commercially
>> prepared foods.
>
> It's a good idea, sounds better to add the enzyme to comercially prepared 
> foods, as the enzyme gets more time to act (not many enzymes survive
> the acidic ph in the stomach) than eating some enzyme units at the same time 
> than the food.
>
>> On the taste issue, I recall reading that the algae considered for life
>> support systems doesn't taste *horrible*, it just doesn't taste good.
>> But there are recipes for it. :-)
>
> IIRC my industrial microbiology prof. said algae didn't succeeded as an 
> eadible product to solve the hunger of the world (being produced at
> large scale) due to the technical problems of getting all those
> microorganisms being illuminated enough for the process being enough
> optimal to use. Also it's hard to supply them with enough CO2 to make
> them really productive...

Illumination and circulation are the big problems. Zero g does make it
somewhat easier to keep a "vat" of microrganisms well mixed. No
tendency for things to "settle".

Alas, you don't want to use raw sunlight for illumination, as that gets
you problems with radiation mutating or killing the algae. On planets,
you can use a series of mirrors to bounce the sunlight around a few
corners. The radiation will go right thru lightweight mirrors instead
of bouncing the way light does. 

> I didn't recall any words on their taste...Taste issue was referred to 
> yeasts as a biomass source for human use.

Well, I recall a few articles back in the 60s about the edible algae.
I think you can *still* buy "kits" for growing them from places like
Edmund Scientific.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:40:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

In mail you write:

>>Det cord works because the force
>>is concentrated in the center of the loops, lay a bundle of it next to your
>>tree and you won't do anything but knock a few leaves off.
>
> But the point is that is just "sits" on the surface of the target, just like
> the Claymore.  No one is "tamping" it down...

Since detcord is *linear*, you get the force expanding as a circle
centered on the cord. Now, try visualizing that with the cord formed
into a loop. You get forces *focusing* on the center of the loop,
merely due to the *shape* of the charge. 

A more or less "flat" or "spherical lump" placed against a wall *won't*
get any focusing.

> C4 has a speed of light burn...

Hardly. It's supersonic, but only a few machs. 

For lightspeed detonation velocity, you need something like
E.E.Smith's "duodec". *That* stuff was pure chemical nastiness. Smith
worked at an ordinance factory in the explosives Q & A section during
WWII. So while he *was* having a bit of fun, he also had a good idea as
to what an "ultimate" chemical explosive might be like. 

Another good one he came up with in a story was developed by humanoids
living on very cold worlds (liquid methane temps). It was pure
pentavalent nitrogen, bonded to itself. I think the formula was
something like N17. It was only "stable" at *way* below zero. 
 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:15:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double standard

In mail you write:

> ObTrav: As Dave said, moral dilemmas are a great way to spice up
> a Traveller campaign...unless you have the odd fortune of having a set
> of players with no moral scruples whatsoever. 
>
> "We torture and maim the guy at the bar until he tells us where the
> missing starship is." (soon followed by) "Why is everybody shooting
> at us?"
>
> That's what I get for teaching D&D players Traveller...<G>

Pick up the Mageworlds books by Debra Doyle & James D. MacDonald. There
are 5 of them at the moment. And *large* portions of the plotline are
driven by folks getting revenge. 

Alas, too much of the background is incompatible with Traveller for it
to be swiped, but I'm sure you'll find *something* you can use. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:09:25 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Dimension Travel Books

Charles Collin wrote:
> 
> Are you sure it was Robert Silverberg?  Larry Niven wrote a short called
> "All the Myriad Ways" on this topic, and a collection of amusing shorts
> called (I think) "Flight of the Unicorn" about a guy trying to time travel
> but ending up slipping "sideways" as he travels back, so that he ends up
> in all sorts of fantasy worlds and the like.  Very fun stuff.
> 
> Charles.
>

Well, no...I remember the Silverberg book very distinctly, but the Niven Time
travel stories are good, too.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:53:03 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: AV vs DR

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Eris Reddoch writes:
> >
> > However, if you include radical sloping on the armor (not
> > unreasonable for a tank) you get DR 1848, and because both FFS and
> > GURPS V2 use the same basic philosophies concerning armor values I
> > think it would be reasonable to double the armor value in TNE terms
> > to 132 AV.

Yes they both use the same multipliers. Moderate ( 30 deg ) = x1.5Radical ( 60 deg
) = x2

> Slope is probably already included in AV -- so yes, it's DR 924.  Which is,
> incidentally, absurdly low (for comparison, frontal armor on a M-1 equivalent
> tank in GVE is rated at DR 1,680...).

Apples and orenges. i.e. there is a scale change in TNE damage so thenumbers arn't
that far off.

> > BTW, has anyone converted the FFS armors into GV2 values?  If 1cm of
> > hard steel is 2 AV and DR 28, then we might say 1AV = DR14, thus...
>
> GURPS armor is rated in DR per pound-sf, not DR per inch (i.e. rated based on
> weight, not based on thickness).

Ve2 pg4, Constants and Equivalents, section header.1 inch of unsloped Hard Steel
armor = DR 70

Once you have this < table snipped > converting is no problem.

Evyn...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1298
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Monday, December 21 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 1299



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Overthrowing Government?
Re: Overthrowing Government?
Re: Gredel's Daughter -or- "What in hell are they talking about"
Re: Claymore or less
Re: Overthrowing Government?
Re: Overthrowing Government?
Re: Overthrowing Government?
Re: Overthrowing Government?
Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)
Re: Overthrowing Government?
Re: Overthrowing Government?
Re: Overthrowing Government?
Terrorism, Overthrowing Governments and The Like
Tage Line Snickers (Was Re: Overthrowing Government?)
Re: Martial Arts IYTU
Re: Martial Arts IYTU
Re: Overthrowing Government?
test, please ignore

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:49:39 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?

Bloodless coup or not, you can't pull it off unless the government wants to
allow it.  The govt. controls the media(Bimbogate should make that
obvious...), too.  You can't organize a movement without having Feds
infiltrate and take the reins, leading it off in the direction they wish.

The internet was the thing that allowed real grass roots calls to "arms,"
but the Feds have made that impossible, now, with "netiquette" and
introduced anti-spamming sentiment.  (Any simpleton can recognize an
advertizement and delete it in a second or two.)  You have to have MONEY to
really get a word out, these days, even on the Net.

That whole business about the man who tried to storm Congress slaughtering a
bunch of cats so many months prior is pure B.S., but I can't tell you how I
know that, because you simply wouldn't believe it and I don't want to
destroy any remaining credibility I have on this list.

Maybe I can settle the argument this way...  Do YOU think YOU could organize
an anti-government movement in this country and see it achieve its goal?
The psy-warriors would probably turn you into a babbling idiot or a suicide
victim within 5 years (see "Absolute Power") IF you had what it took to
dodge the simpler methods of neutralization.

Most men wouldn't even think of attempting it, because they have families
and loved ones.  It would take a division of men who had no weaknesses
whatsoever.

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?


>> A peasant COULDN'T carry out a coup in this country or even successfully
>> organize one unless the government permitted it because it served their
>> purposes.
>>
>> --Clif
>
>The problem with this line of argument is that it is fixated on armed
>rebellion.  (coups)
>
>A couple of weeks ago I forwarded an OT thing I picked up about Indonesia,
>describing million people strong unarmed demonstrations.  That's how you
>overthrow governments.
>
>If you use helicopters against them, you have three million people on the
>streets the next day.

Maybe in the city, but not in the "other" circumstances which make up most
of this country's geography.  I was in an Air Cav unit.  Our helicopters
showed us how VERY exposed we could be while on ground patrol.  And...
OH-58's are VERY different than AH-64A's or a Blackhawk with Doorguns...
Sure, you try to shoot down that chopper with your semi-auto AR-15A2 with
its obligatory 15 round magazine before they zap your arse with their Air
Model 60's.

This doesn't even get into the fact that a military bird can fly right past
your foxhole in blackout mode and all you would detect is the sound...  Put
on a pair of NVG's(where are you going to get the batteries for your NVG's
over time?) and you'd see that your arse was in a flood of light with a
minigun or a 40mm grenade launcher aimed at your gaping mouth.

The only time you are "free" in this country is when you are "free" to do
what you are told.  Just try to go without paying taxes...  You're not even
"free" to refrain from paying taxes!  If you want to maintain the illusion
that you are, the IRS will eventually allow you to practice your "freedom"
in a prison cell.

> Your ground forces tend to suffer from mixed
>loyalties:  "am I a citizen of (relevant country) or a hired thug?" when
>faced with "the people".

I think you underestimate the dehumanizing effect of putting someone in your
sights when you are basically a trained killer, as all infantry are.  All
that the troops would have to do is get scorched by a couple of molotovs and
they are going to be "scanning their sector."

>  Even mercs would tend to start worrying about
>their pension plan when this kind of stuff happened.
>
>I'm not saying that repression wouldn't be possible - but this is usually
>when governments start backing off.
>
>The US militias have equivalents in Australia, so I'm allowed to be rude
>about them.  Basically, these people are stupid Nazis, and it's good they
>are incompetent.  That, unfortunately, doesn't stop them from being
>dangerous.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:53:49 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?


>> A peasant COULDN'T carry out a coup in this country or even successfully
>> organize one unless the government permitted it because it served their
>> purposes.
>>
>> --Clif
>
>The problem with this line of argument is that it is fixated on armed
>rebellion.  (coups)
>
>A couple of weeks ago I forwarded an OT thing I picked up about Indonesia,
>describing million people strong unarmed demonstrations.  That's how you
>overthrow governments.

Follow the money.  WHO is in power in Indonesia?  Are the people who are in
power also subservient to another, higher power, like the UN?  To whom does
the UN kowtow?  What would be their motive in permitting these
demonstrations?

Freedom is something you have when those who govern let out the line.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:32:11 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Gredel's Daughter -or- "What in hell are they talking about"

Jesse,

FANTASTIC!

'nuff said

Mike Peters
Travelleri@Home.com
(note new address)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:19:25 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Claymore or less

Clif wrote:

> Oh, well then the Ranger instructor misinformed us.  (he was a Ranger
> instructing us service support pukes).

That's what you get for listening to rangers... ( Oh, sorry Doug )  8-)


Evyn...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:40:12 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?

>Bloodless coup or not, you can't pull it off unless the government wants to
>allow it.  The govt. controls the media(Bimbogate should make that
>obvious...), too.  You can't organize a movement without having Feds
>infiltrate and take the reins, leading it off in the direction they wish.


That's a...interesting world you live in Clif.  I would tend to disagree,
but that would make me a 'them' wouldn't it?

>
>The internet was the thing that allowed real grass roots calls to "arms,"
>but the Feds have made that impossible, now, with "netiquette" and
>introduced anti-spamming sentiment.  (Any simpleton can recognize an
>advertizement and delete it in a second or two.)  You have to have MONEY to
>really get a word out, these days, even on the Net.


Considering the amount of spam I get (be it commercial, MLM, tax scams,
porn, or bible-preaching - I get it all and gnaw on each and every spammer
impartially) I'd have to say that the Fed is doing a pretty miserable job of
it, especially considering none of the 4+ bills at the Federal level that
will put teeth into my bite (well, only one puts teeth into it - the rest
just let me gum more energetically) have yet to pass.

And I might point out that this list alone puts 50+ messages in my inbox a
day, many of them from people I do not know.  Many with really preposterous
subject lines.  (like Overthrowing Government?  ;)  All of which I should
(but, alas, cannot) review.  Plus I get legitimate business enquiries (I
*do* ethical business on the net) and responses to enquiries I've made via
e-mail.  I takes more than a few seconds to determine if some of the spam I
get is in fact, solicited or not.

So far as the Feds developing netiquette, that is really far out there.
I've watched the TML's own version of netiquette develop over the past few
years, and as far as I know we don't have any Feds on this list...(looking
around and checking to see if my cover is blown...)

>
>Maybe I can settle the argument this way...  Do YOU think YOU could
organize
>an anti-government movement in this country and see it achieve its goal?
>The psy-warriors would probably turn you into a babbling idiot or a suicide
>victim within 5 years (see "Absolute Power") IF you had what it took to
>dodge the simpler methods of neutralization.


Depends on whether or not I planned to leave anything in it's place.
Destroying something is easy.  (Well, financing could be a problem...I
wonder how much in liquid assets Saddam still has available outside Iraq?)

>
>Most men wouldn't even think of attempting it, because they have families
>and loved ones.  It would take a division of men who had no weaknesses
>whatsoever.


Wrong.  All it takes is passion.  That is a considerable weakness.

This really has nothing to do with traveller, other than to spark some
campaign ideas.  Thank you for playing.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:46:22 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?

At 05:40 pm 12/21/98 -0800, you wrote:

//	Carefully reasoned response to ... conspiracy theory ...
//	snipped, with no further inputs, because I don't want to 
//	get into another pointless flamefest

The real reason I responded:

>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

	Now I gotta clean my monitor off! How long have I been missing this
tagline?
- -- Dave Golden
- -- House in Colorado Springs for sale! 
- -- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:01:20 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?

A LONG time Dave...well, at least the past month or so since I joined the
list.

Cheers & Beers
Jesse



- -----Original Message-----
From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?


>At 05:40 pm 12/21/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>// Carefully reasoned response to ... conspiracy theory ...
>// snipped, with no further inputs, because I don't want to
>// get into another pointless flamefest
>
>The real reason I responded:
>
>>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>
> Now I gotta clean my monitor off! How long have I been missing this
>tagline?
>-- Dave Golden
>-- House in Colorado Springs for sale!
>-- http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:48:26 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?

In a message dated 12/21/98 6:56:04 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

> That whole business about the man who tried to storm Congress slaughtering a
>  bunch of cats so many months prior is pure B.S., but I can't tell you how I
>  know that, because you simply wouldn't believe it and I don't want to
>  destroy any remaining credibility I have on this list.

Too late.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:21:29 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Terrorism: moral dilemmas or a double-standard? (was RE: Slight COnfusion)

In a message dated 12/21/98 2:53:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< 
 > Of course this tends to break down into grayness when you talk
 > about arial (or in the future, space to ground) bombardment...
 
 Naaah, arial only gets gray when you use too small a size and mess up the
 leading...but why are you throwing fonts at them...is this a war of words or
 what? :-P
 car@sc.llu.eduALIGN=LEF >>


OOPS.......

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:19:42 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?


>
>
>>Bloodless coup or not, you can't pull it off unless the government wants to
>>allow it.  The govt. controls the media(Bimbogate should make that
>>obvious...), too.  You can't organize a movement without having Feds
>>infiltrate and take the reins, leading it off in the direction they wish.
>
>
>That's a...interesting world you live in Clif.  I would tend to disagree,
>but that would make me a 'them' wouldn't it?

Is your disagreement based on any more knowledge than mine, or is just an
opinion?

>
>>
>>The internet was the thing that allowed real grass roots calls to "arms,"
>>but the Feds have made that impossible, now, with "netiquette" and
>>introduced anti-spamming sentiment.  (Any simpleton can recognize an
>>advertizement and delete it in a second or two.)  You have to have MONEY
to
>>really get a word out, these days, even on the Net.
>
>
>Considering the amount of spam I get (be it commercial, MLM, tax scams,
>porn, or bible-preaching - I get it all and gnaw on each and every spammer
>impartially) I'd have to say that the Fed is doing a pretty miserable job of
>it, especially considering none of the 4+ bills at the Federal level that
>will put teeth into my bite (well, only one puts teeth into it - the rest
>just let me gum more energetically) have yet to pass.
>
>And I might point out that this list alone puts 50+ messages in my inbox a
>day, many of them from people I do not know.  Many with really preposterous
>subject lines.  (like Overthrowing Government?  ;)  All of which I should
>(but, alas, cannot) review.  Plus I get legitimate business enquiries (I
>*do* ethical business on the net) and responses to enquiries I've made via
>e-mail.  I takes more than a few seconds to determine if some of the spam I
>get is in fact, solicited or not.

But is any of that email trying to organize a movement to overthrow the
government?  No, and that's my point.  With all the wackos out there, not
ONE email message trying to rally people to take arms against the government
has gotten to your inbox?

It's like the time I tried to expose the propaganda behind the whole Noam
Friedman story.  He was the Israeli soldier about 2 years ago who allegedly
opened fire into a Palestinian marketplace without cause.  Anyone who saw
the picture of Noam Friedman in the act should have said, "Things that may
you go hmmm..."

I tried to post the QUESTIONS and PROBLEMS of the story and the accompanying
picture on the Usenet and it was deleted so fast my head spun.  And that was
in late '96 or early '97...

>
>So far as the Feds developing netiquette, that is really far out there.

Yeah and so is the idea that the Feds are going to leave a trail of
breadcrumbs revealing the source of any program meant to influence the
masses.

>I've watched the TML's own version of netiquette develop over the past few
>years, and as far as I know we don't have any Feds on this list...(looking
>around and checking to see if my cover is blown...)
>

Oh?  You talk much about overthrowing the government on this list, do you?

You can bet that there is at least one secret squirrel who has made it his
job to familiarize himself with the Traveller subculture.

>>
>>Maybe I can settle the argument this way...  Do YOU think YOU could
>organize
>>an anti-government movement in this country and see it achieve its goal?
>>The psy-warriors would probably turn you into a babbling idiot or a suicide
>>victim within 5 years (see "Absolute Power") IF you had what it took to
>>dodge the simpler methods of neutralization.
>
>
>Depends on whether or not I planned to leave anything in it's place.
>Destroying something is easy.  (Well, financing could be a problem...I
>wonder how much in liquid assets Saddam still has available outside Iraq?)

Oh, right!  YOU could "destroy" this nation's government?  You wear Superman
underoo's or something?

>
>>
>>Most men wouldn't even think of attempting it, because they have families
>>and loved ones.  It would take a division of men who had no weaknesses
>>whatsoever.
>
>
>Wrong.  All it takes is passion.  That is a considerable weakness.
>

Sure, passion to get the job done, but they would also have to have no love
for their lives or their loved ones.  Take Political Correctness and all of
the fawning sycophants in Washington.  They don't want to do anything to
tick off those with power, you can be sure.  Liberals are some of the best
politicians because they don't let scruples or ethics get in the way of
their scramble for power.

>This really has nothing to do with traveller, other than to spark some
>campaign ideas.  Thank you for playing.
>
>douglas
>
>E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
>http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
>IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:21:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?

Yeah, I figured someone who can't resist making a crack would say something
like that.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com <JFZeigler@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?


>In a message dated 12/21/98 6:56:04 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>brclif@digital.net writes:
>
>> That whole business about the man who tried to storm Congress
slaughtering a
>>  bunch of cats so many months prior is pure B.S., but I can't tell you
how I
>>  know that, because you simply wouldn't believe it and I don't want to
>>  destroy any remaining credibility I have on this list.
>
>Too late.
>
>----------
>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
>historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
>JFZeigler@aol.com
>"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for
yourself."
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:36:05 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?

Cliff;

Put up or shut up. Let's see some concrete documented proof of your
allegations. Personally I think that the feds are too incompetent to be able
to pull off the conspiracies that you talk about...

Ob Traveller: See Admiral Santanocheev's write ups, and the unimpressive
showing of IRIS in MT...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:54:23 +1000 (EST)
From: JEFFREY MALONE <j1.malone@student.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Terrorism, Overthrowing Governments and The Like

Might one humbly suggest that this thread is getting way off track for the
TML, and allow the flame-war to continue in private?

Please?

Jeff Malone (aka Academician Boris Kalashnikov)

*******************************************************************************
Jeff Malone
PhD Student - Department of Justice Studies, Kelvin Grove Campus, QUT
              Kelvin Grove  QLD  4052
Phone:        (07) 3864-3597
              (07) 3864-3188
Fax:          (07) 3864-3991/2 
*******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:46:22 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Tage Line Snickers (Was Re: Overthrowing Government?)

At 06:46 PM 21/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>At 05:40 pm 12/21/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>//	Carefully reasoned response to ... conspiracy theory ...
>//	snipped, with no further inputs, because I don't want to 
>//	get into another pointless flamefest
>
>The real reason I responded:
>
>>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>
>	Now I gotta clean my monitor off! How long have I been missing this
>tagline?
>-- Dave Golden

        Yeah, that was my reaction too...  I think I am making this into a
poster....
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:46:22 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts IYTU

At 04:03 PM 21/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Seeing as how many of you have more detailed reference libraries for 
>the Traveller milieu than I, I wanted to ask a few questions:
>
>1)  Are there any worlds referenced as being centers for Martial Arts 
>study and practice?
>

        Hi, Jason!
        I just flipped through JTAS #23, and it describes the "Irklansa" of
the highlands of Menorb.  Rough synopis is "Psionic Survialist Samurai Ninja
Monks"....  Interesting culture, and the article specifically cites JTAS
#19's article that I mentioned in my previous response to your question.

        Happy Holidays!
        ---Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:46:21 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts IYTU

At 04:03 PM 21/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Fellow Sophonts:
>
>As a big fan of Steve Perry's "Matador" series, I have a big interest 
>in developing the Martial Arts world within my Traveller milieu.  
>However, there are very little references to Martial Arts within the 
>Traveller material I have available to me.  What I have seen 
>indicates that the Aslan have a style involving their dewclaws, and 
>the Vargr practice a brutal art known as Infighting.  GT refers to a 
>Martial Artist template.  Little else seems referenced.

        JTAS #19 has a complete section on "Suggestions for Martial Arts
Combat in TRAVELLER", by Bob Liebman.  I thought it was pretty good.

>Seeing as how many of you have more detailed reference libraries for 
>the Traveller milieu than I, I wanted to ask a few questions:
>
>1)  Are there any worlds referenced as being centers for Martial Arts 
>study and practice?

        The above cited article indicates the Geeonee have a native Art
called "Trakaj" for bodyguard work.

>2)  Are there any sects or other organizations that teach or deal 
>with Martial Arts?
>
>3)  Are there any specific Martial Arts identified in canon material?

        None that I have seen.

>4)  Are there any established competitions (ala "Bloodsport" or 
>"Hunters of the Red Moon") or Martial Arts sub-cultures (like the 
>Musashi Flex from the "Matador" series)?

        None that I have ever heard of for CT.

>5)  What are the answers to these four questions IYTU?

        MTU is so far divorced from Cannon it is almost rediculous, in terms
of setting.  I use the CT rules, plus the bits and pieces in the JTAS I have
that I like.
        The Martial Arts article is one of them.  I have misappropriated the
"Blood Sport" style of tournament whole cloth, with and added twist.  The
Terran competetion, still fought in Hong Kong, is only held once every three
years;  only the finest from individual *worlds*, not nations, are invited.
Where deaths in the ring do occur, the Blood Sport competitions are frowned
upon;  in practice, they are not interfered with.

>Thanks in advance for any info anyone can volunteer.
>
>Jason

        Happy Holidays,
        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	 Dad, MIS Manager, Reservist, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:35:53 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Overthrowing Government?

>At 05:40 pm 12/21/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>// Carefully reasoned response to ... conspiracy theory ...
>// snipped, with no further inputs, because I don't want to
>// get into another pointless flamefest
>
>The real reason I responded:
>
>>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>
> Now I gotta clean my monitor off! How long have I been missing this
>tagline?


:)

Just a week or two I think.

It was a piece of humor that was sent to me, but I grabbed it as a tagline
instead of feeding it to my humor list.

douglas


E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:01:19 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: test, please ignore

Just testing something.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #1299
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
